WEBVTT - Dr. Sasho MacKenzie 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.000 It's the Son of a Butch podcast. We come to 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:13.160 you every Wednesday. This week's guest doctor Sasho McKenzie. He 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.640 is doing some groundbreaking work in biomechanics. If you're a 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.239 golf nerd and you're trying to hit the golf ball further, 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.000 you're going to know who he is. You're going to 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.040 know his name, and we're going to talk about a 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.160 lot of really really cool stuff. He's someone that I 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.040 think is doing roundbreaking work to try and help golfers 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.040 get better. So very very excited for everyone to be 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.520 able to listen to him talk. The work he's done 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.400 with Matt Fitzpatrick to help him hit the golf ball 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.120 further is some really really cool stuff. But before we 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.680 dive in, I want to thank our partners at Rapsodo 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.320 and share more about their exciting, award winning combine that 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.440 is launching this month. I'm partnering with them to give 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.600 away two virtual golf lessons. All you have to do 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.920 is complete a combine on your mL or the new 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.840 MLM two Pro during the month of August. Each combine 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.920 is an entry, so the more you take, the more 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.800 chances you have to win. If you've been listening since 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.040 the beginning. You know that I'm a massive fan of 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.840 both their launch monitors and the new MLM two Pro. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.360 I think it's a game changer. It's got two integrated 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.920 cameras Doppler radar, giving you three ways to see your swing. 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.479 It's easy to use, extremely portable, and provides the same 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.559 metrics competitors do at a fraction of the price, which 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.160 I think is really really important to have tech that 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.080 is affordable to help you with your game. In addition 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.959 to the combine, they're also still giving Son of a 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.880 Butcher listeners an exclusive discount code CH three will get 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.680 you seventy dollars off your purchase of a MLM too 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.480 Pro on rapsodo dot com. They'll throw in a free 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.120 dozen of the RPT balls to measure spin. You also 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:00.880 get a first year of premium membership for free. Again, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.520 that's code H three at rapsodo dot com for seventy 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.200 dollars off. And don't forget about their award winning combines. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:16.639 And now let's get to the interview with Sasho McKenzie. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.960 My guest is doctor Sasho McKenzie. Sash I'm sure a 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.400 passive cross, but I mean You're one of the names 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.639 that in golf instruction in twenty twenty three we hear 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.120 a lot. So I'm really really excited to get a 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.800 chance to talk to you and kind of pick your 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.600 brain because with all of the the doctor degrees and 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:38.720 all of the biomechanics stuff you're you're a hell of 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.400 a lot smarter than I am, that's for sure. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.640 I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I know an 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.200 awful lot about very little, That's what I like to say. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.720 I mean, there's there's a lot to unpack. I want 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:53.880 to talk about the work you've done with Matt Fitzpatrick 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.639 and the stack system, biomechanics and all of that, your 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.120 work with rap Sodo, the comb that you've helped them 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.640 come up with. But sajhow in twenty twenty three in 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.280 golf instruction and for all the golfers out there listening, 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.720 I think it's a very interesting time in instruction and 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.680 you're on the front lines of it as I am, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.320 and I think a lot of people are. I mean, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.520 on the lessons that I give. I feel like a 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.440 lot of people come in and they're hearing these buzzwords, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.160 they're hearing this stuff on social media, and they're trying. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.480 I see so many players that I'm the doctor and 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.760 they've got the broken wrist, and they've got the cast 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:37.960 on the wrist. And then you check the wrist and 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:39.760 the wrist isn't broken. And they said, well, yeah, but 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.040 somebody said, if your wrist is broken, you've got to 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:43.400 put a cast on it. And you're like, yeah, it's 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.040 your wrist isn't broken. So and I think there's so 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.800 many players and people trying to play that hear all 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:56.880 of this information. So science versus sports, science versus art. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.120 How do we balance that and how do you view 0:03:59.160 --> 0:03:59.560 all of that? 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.800 Right? Well, I think you know, there are two big, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:11.480 big areas in golf, speed and accuracy, you know, and 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:18.160 I believe that science needs to dominate speed. So no 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.040 one could ever really, in my opinion, maybe this is 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.360 a bit arrogant, could ever say anything to me about 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.520 the You know, there's very small wilmen for someone to 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.960 talk about the art of speed. You know, it's it's 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:36.520 hard physics. I know what the body can do to 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.240 generate speed. It's just physics principles. And then you overlay 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:47.120 some biomechanics concepts on that. Accuracy on the other hand 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:53.160 there you even as a scientist, you're mostly forced to 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.800 listen or you should be listening to the folks that 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.800 have experienced You know that. That's I I think why 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.720 golf instruction right now is so interesting and maybe you 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.000 always will be because you're I say this a lot. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.840 I spend a lot of time looking for research that 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.679 discusses the repeatability of a movement, not just in golf, 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.320 but could be typing a keyboard, it could be throwing 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:22.000 a dart. And to date, I'm not aware of any 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.600 study that said this way of moving is more repeatable 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.200 from a human perspective than this other way of moving. 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.520 So that means that the instructor on the lesson t 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:42.040 who's given two thousand lessons has you know, I should 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.400 listen to them as a scientist. But at the same time, 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.720 you know I'm going to likely try to trump them 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.520 when it comes to maybe what's the best way to 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.719 increase speed? But you know, there's a whole lot of 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.560 middle ground in there. Those are my thoughts on the 0:05:58.640 --> 0:05:59.640 art and science of it. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:01.960 I saw a quote that you said that you think 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.920 there is a natural tendency for people with regards to 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.520 golf swings not only their own golf swings, but instructors 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:14.320 as well for aesthetics that we look towards what looks really, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.719 really good. And it's something that you know, when people 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.080 ask me what my favorite golf swings are, I get 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.400 asked that question a lot. I always ask I always 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.560 ask the question from an esthetics standpoint or from a 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:31.520 function standpoint, because from and golf is not an aesthetics contest, right, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.719 It's not figure skating, it's not gymnastics, because if it was, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.960 people like Adam Scott and Nelly Korda, they'd win every 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.880 week because they'd get nine eights and nine nines from 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.440 the judges because the look of their golf swing is very, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:51.800 very beautiful. It's very classic, it's very unencumbered by a 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.960 lot of idosyncrasies. But the kid that I'm drawing a 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.200 blanket is his name that led the Open Championship. After 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:02.000 the first day, I'm watching him hit balls like Tuesday, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.560 he's six eight, he's got two hundred, he's cruising at 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.080 two hundred and you can see. And I was talking 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.840 to Dave Phillips about it over breakfast one morning and 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.680 he said, you know, the amazing thing is you can 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.600 see that that golf swing is one hundred percent based 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.559 on function. He grew up in South Africa, probably didn't 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.000 have a lot of access to a lot of modern 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.000 club fitting like we do here in the States, where 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.720 you can get club fit everywhere and there's tons of equipment. 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:32.080 So if you look at the way he swings the 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.480 golf club, it looked to me like it was functional. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.000 He probably played with golf clubs that were too short 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.640 growing up. He's six eight, he had to try and 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.119 get back down to the ball tons of knee drive. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.840 But what I think is really great social in today's age, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.760 we know enough through people like yourself, through technology that 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.200 in the past we would somebody would change that. But 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.600 now through all the tech, through launch monitor data, through 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:08.080 biomechanics data, through three D you can you can quantify 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.240 if he can repeat it and if it works. And 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.320 I think we're seeing so many more golf swings like 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:22.520 that that are functional and they're not necessarily aesthetically the best, 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:23.679 but they work. 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:31.840 Yeah. Absolutely, you know what. I contacted by a lot 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:39.080 of mini tour players to emphasize your point, and I 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.800 initially know nothing about their statistics. That's the first question 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:44.440 I want to know, is we'll send me what you know, 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.679 send me some of your stats. Let's see your strokes 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:51.320 gain and you know the four areas. Let's see, you know, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.560 a track man session where I can look at your variability. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.319 But I don't. They don't send me any of that stuff. 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.600 They say, well, you know, what do you see in 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.880 the swing? I have no idea, you know, you it 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.600 could be again, all these golf swings are you know, 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.560 to use your word functional enough. If you've got, you know, 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.240 to play at the elite level, If you've got one 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.880 hundred mile an hour clubhead speed with your seven iron 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.240 and you can hit the ball a certain height in 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.600 the air, there's a whole world of options for you 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.320 to swing a golf club. You know. If you're swinging 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.920 at at eighty six miles an hour, you know your 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.200 driver club at speeds one oh four, Well then we 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.360 definitely have to work on something, you know. But yeah, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.240 I just showing me the aesthetics of your swing. That 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.880 means so little to me without some context. You know. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:44.880 If I also, if I know that you're struggling with 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:50.199 a hook or a block or some particular systematic miss, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.120 then I might be able to associate that with what 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.960 I'm seeing aesthetically. But yeah, it's crazy to me that 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.920 you could even think about fixing a swing without knowing 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.840 what the you know, the ball flight data is saying. 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.959 My dad's youngest brother, my uncle Billy. You know, my 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.320 dad when he was working with Tiger, and you know, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.600 everybody was trying to swing like Tiger, get the club 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.679 in these beautiful positions, and Adam Scott, you know, did 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.640 a great job at kind of mimicking and I did that. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.480 I mean, I taught a lot of players in the 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.719 early two thousands to swing the club like Tiger and 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.720 it worked right, Get the club wider and things like that. 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.080 But I remember we were watching Tiger hit balls one 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.440 day and my uncle Billy was there and he said, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.160 you know, the amazing thing is we're all trying to 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.960 have people swing like Adam Scott and Tiger Woods. Nobody 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.720 tries to get anybody to swing like Lee Trevino. Nobody 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.160 tries to get anybody to swing like Hailer when some 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:49.360 of these incredibly functional, somewhat idiosyncratic moves on what they did. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.560 You live in the biomechanics world, and I saw a 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.520 quote that you said biomechanics and sports is about discovering 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.560 ways to perform a skill that moves our body fast 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:06.760 and accurately while preventing injury. Not everybody that's playing golf 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.000 that is a average golfer, And I always throw everybody 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:14.800 that isn't playing competitively on a regular basis as average golfers, right, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.640 I mean everybody. The majority of people that play our 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:22.400 sport from a golf standpoint are regular everyday golfers. They're 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.600 not elite competitors, they're not elite performers. So when the 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.280 average fifteen to twenty handicapper listens to this podcast and 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.600 we're talking about biomechanics, I think it sometimes freaks people 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.199 out because one, they don't know what these terms are. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:41.240 They don't know what it means for you. What's the 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.400 easiest way for everyone listening to have an understanding and 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.640 have a better relationship with the term biomechanics. What does 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:56.000 it mean to you and how can it help golfers? 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:03.280 Well, biomechanics is essentially physics, but applied to bones and 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:09.120 muscles specifically. Yeah, so, but you know, deals with the 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.800 forces that cause motion, and with a golfer, the forces 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.840 are originating from the muscles. Those muscles pull on bones 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.560 to create movement. And then there's a whole bunch of principles, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.800 mechanical principles and physical laws, Newton's laws that we can 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.840 apply to understand better ways to swing a golf club. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.280 I saw also in doing some you know, research for this, 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:40.920 two terms that that that you've used, external validity and 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.400 internal validity. What do those mean? And and and how 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.160 can we apply them to our own gain? 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:55.040 Sure? So I think they apply specifically to answering a question. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.920 You know. So if you want to know, okay, I 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:06.360 would say, is anchoring a putter better for improving putting performance? 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.800 There's a question, okay, you know, so we've got some 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.319 biomechanics involved in that. If you anchor the putter, will 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.880 you put better? So if you're going to answer that 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.880 using science, you need to conduct an experiment. My philosophy 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.800 is first to maximize internal validity, so that means that 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.720 you're sure that whatever you discover in the experiment is 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.120 due to how you manipulated the experiment. And you would 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.320 manipulate the experiment by saying, let's have golfers putt normally 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.520 conventional with a regular you know, thirty four inch putter, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.640 and then let's have them putt with a longer putter 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.880 where they anchor to their chest, or maybe we're comparing 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.600 a forearm lock putter, whatever it is. And if I 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.800 find a difference in performance, then I know it's due 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.000 to the differences in those putters. The short one versus 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.960 the anchor or the non anchored versus. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.080 One one works better than the other. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.920 In the conditions for the experiment, I have very high internalbility, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.640 so there's no other possible explanation for why this was 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.599 a difference. So things I would do, I would do 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.840 it in a lap where we don't have inconsistent greens, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.280 we don't have people moving in the background, we don't 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:22.480 have differences in temperature, and everything would be very balanced. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.360 You know, you'd hit one put with this putter, another 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.440 put with this putter. You'd hit you know, eighteen with 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.240 one putter, eighteen with another putter. Your next participant in 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.080 it would be the reverse order where they would start with, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.040 you know, the anchored versus the standard. But that has 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.200 low external validity. Someone would say, yeah, but they don't 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.400 have to read their own putt. They're not they don't 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.760 have the nerves of trying to sink a pot in 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.000 you know, a major championship. So then you'd want to 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.040 try and once you confirm that if everything's tight tight 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.680 experiment high internability there is a difference, then you see 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:00.680 if that difference is strong enough to exist in the 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:05.720 real world, you want to maximize external validity. Those studies 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.440 tend to be tougher to do, but you would try 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.080 and say, Okay, I'm going to try to get twenty 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.560 tour players to play half the season with an using 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.360 anchor and then they switch and twenty other ones to 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.760 do the reverse, and we track the results that would have. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.720 You know, it's a tough example to actually recreate, but 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.120 that would have high external validity. Right, You'd be like, yeah, okay, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.400 in the real world, does this show up? 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.680 Yeah, because I think a lot of times golfers, and 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:39.840 specifically golfers that are trying to compete, are practicing almost 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.560 in a vacuum. Right. They're trying to practice in a 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.359 very very controlled environment, thinking that Okay, if I practice 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:54.000 enough in a very specific controlled environment, that is going 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.480 to have some sort of effect on the outcome. But 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.880 the problem is the game that we're playing from a 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.080 golf standpoint is so random, it's so all over the place, 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.280 and I think I see more people practicing, like you said, 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.000 they're trying to get this internal validity to where if 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.440 I repeat this movement pattern over and over and over 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.520 and over again in a very controlled space to where 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.480 the lies are flat, you know, the block practice versus 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.920 random practice. I think most golfers tend to stay in 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:35.280 block practice constantly, and the random practice is for them. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.120 The random practice is the playing of the game, not 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.080 random practice. The random practice is okay, well, now I'm 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.720 gonna I've worked on this for two weeks now. I mean, I, Sasha, 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:48.920 I have so many players that come and take lessons, 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.120 that are trying to compete on many tours and say, okay, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.760 so would you suggest what I take, you know, six 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:55.800 months off. I'm like, no, you need to play next week. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:01.320 You have to play. You can't do this in a laboratory. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.159 You have to go play. So how how do you 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:09.480 balance those two between the internal validities where you're trying 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.840 to have a controlled environment, and then the external to 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.520 where you're saying, okay, let me go see if any 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.560 of this works. As you said, in the real world, 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.320 the real world is going and playing golf, putting scores 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.480 down on a scorecard, which has nothing to do with, 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.080 as you said, aesthetics or the way things look or 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:31.119 the way you've practiced. How can our listeners balance the 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:35.480 two because I feel in the twenty five years that 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.399 I've been, you know, giving lessons, I think most people 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.080 stay in the lab and they just want to get 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.800 back to the lab too, Right, if they play bad, 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.480 they just said, just get me back to the range, 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:47.840 Get me back to the range, get me back to 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:48.240 the range. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.000 Well, you know, I think we have there's kind of 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.080 two related concepts as the research concept of internal external validity, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.960 which is important to answer question. But then we've got practicing, 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.520 like you mentioned block versus random like how much what 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.359 I would say, contextual interference do you have? And and 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.400 I think that the more elite you get at as skill, 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.840 there's a concept called challenge point, which I'm you know, 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.480 it's kind of a rough guide to how best to 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.199 optimize your practice. It's held up pretty well, and the 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.679 idea is that the better you get at a skill, 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.000 the more you should be challenged, the more you can 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.480 randomize that practice. So I was just in the backyard 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.720 this evening with my ten year old daughter Sienna, kind 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.320 of new to golf, and we're doing just pet practice 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.560 and twenty yard pitch shots, you know, trying to make 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.720 clean contacts. So I'm fluffing up. We got some nice 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.400 grass in the backyard. I'm fluffing up every single one. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.159 You know, they're and in fact, if she'd go to 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.680 hit it and it kind of settled down, I'd fluff 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.399 it up because she's at the point where I she 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.919 could make what's really what I consider to be nice technique. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.400 You know, watch golf better Tuson. I love this chipping stuff. 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.959 So in pitching, great technique, bad line means it's going 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.719 to be really tough for her to make good contact, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.679 and then she'll think, well, that was a bad swing, 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:13.880 but it wasn't. It was just a really tough scenario. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.919 So I think beginning golfers the block practice, the easy 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.760 condition set the challenge points, so you're succeeding enough where 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.359 you're reinforcing the good stuff you're doing. But then you 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.800 get closer to tour players, and I think tour players 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.240 spend too much time in block. You know, I think 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.920 do enough to build up some confidence, but just enough. 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:36.760 You know, hey, you want to hit four or five 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.440 footers in a row to make sure that your line 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.840 is good and check yourself in the mirror and whatever. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.720 That's fine. You should be spending the majority of your time, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.800 Like if I was working with a tour player and 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.440 they're pitching, you know, or practice, you should be just 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.280 dropping those things, you know, throw them on the ground, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.960 whatever lie it ends up in. That's where you play 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.879 out of you know, and maybe even seeking out harder 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.359 lies and harder situations, you know. So I think that 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.720 in general, the more elite you get, the more practice 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:12.400 time should be spent kind of more random, more things 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.840 that make it that make it challenging, you know. That's that. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.080 And if you have even an elite level, if you 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.000 have someone struggling, you know, maybe someone's getting a little 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.280 yippie with the chips, then hey, maybe spend a half 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.320 an hour hitting your pitch shots off tees, right, nothing 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.760 wrong with that. Or I got no problem with a 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.919 five inch hole for putting, right, If if you're struggling 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:35.920 with that and you need to build some confidence, hitting 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:37.960 eight foot putts with a five inch hole is great. 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.240 Whereas someone like Aaron Baddeley. He could probably spend a 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.480 lot of time putting at a three inch hole right 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.600 to be like, okay, let's make sure I'm really dialed 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.399 in here, and then he's the added benefit moving to 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:51.600 the course and the four and a quarter looks like 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:53.640 the Grand Canyons. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:02.760 Obviously, you've got a lot of you know, accolades, you know, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.640 for the work you've done with Matt Fitzpatrick. The stack system, 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.359 which I'm seeing so many players not only at the 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.920 tour level using, but so many juniors and so many 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.280 amateur golfers are coming in with that in their bag. 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.240 Talk to us about how you met Matt and what 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:22.719 the stack system is. 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:28.680 Sure, so I met Matt through his coach, Mike Walker. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:35.560 So they came to the conclusion twenty eighteen that Matt 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.879 needed more speed. He wanted to be one of the 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:40.280 best players in the world. He wants to be the 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.000 best player in the world. He wants to win majors. 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:47.760 And funny enough, Claude, it was at the Masters, playing 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.720 you know, against guys like DJ DJ in particular whole eleven. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.280 Matt's got a four iron in at Augusta, DJ's got 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.159 an eight iron. Well, you can't You can't do that 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:00.960 over four rounds and expect to beat some like DJ. 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.840 Like DJ's just as good at putting short game. So 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:10.399 in order to have any chance faster, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.280 you need you need, you need to get the speed up. 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.960 So they they gave me a call up, you know, 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.200 spend a few days with Matt. We worked on some 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.159 mechanics stuff, but really the gains came all the games 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:29.240 came from using the stack system. So it's it's basically 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.240 a weighted club, so you can you can do overload 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.000 and overspeed training with it. But the magic's in the app, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.159 so it sets up customized programming for you. It tells 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:44.520 you exactly what way to load on rest timers pop up. 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.639 It tracks your records so you know it's program is 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:50.560 going to be different than someone else's program. And then 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.960 when you finish a program, it reanalyzes all the data 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.200 it's collected and it says, okay, this is the next 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.200 program that's best for you. And it also dynamically changes 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:01.800 during the program to figure out what your next workout 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.480 should be. And we put a lot of effort into 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.960 making the app very motivating and engaging. So I think 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.800 that that was a real change in the industry. We 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.199 have thirty thirty options that you commote on there. The 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:18.520 app is fund to interact with it. It's super motivating 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.280 and you know, we've got about twenty five thousand people 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.520 using it now, over twelve million swings, and we've got 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:26.680 a ton of data that's really just made the app 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.840 even better. Just we're constantly re evaluating the programming and 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.080 what it can do. For a guy like Fitzpatrick, he 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.960 was you know, ball speed was mid one sixties and 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.240 over the course of twenty twenty one at Pebble, he 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.680 went from mid one sixties to averaging one hundred and 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.520