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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It's August first, and the suspect charged

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Speaker 1: for killing the Arkansas couple on a hike with their

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Speaker 1: young daughters just made his first court appearance. Bond has

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Speaker 1: been denied. He did not enter a plea of not guilty,

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Speaker 1: but police say he's already told them he's guilty. And

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Speaker 1: with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. Robes.

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Speaker 1: He was in court just a short time ago, and

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Speaker 1: I guess it was something. There's some images out of there,

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Speaker 1: and it's just kind of eerie to just lay eyes

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Speaker 1: on them.

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Speaker 2: It is eerie. And I saw that the hairstylist who

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Speaker 2: was cutting his hair when he was arrested described his

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Speaker 2: face as soulless, and that's actually a really accurate description.

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Speaker 2: I may. I know that we're all viewing him and

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Speaker 2: looking at him through the lens of what he's accused

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Speaker 2: of doing, but it's still there is something eerie, something

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Speaker 2: vacant in his face. He doesn't have any expression, And yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's frightening even just to look at someone who's capable

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Speaker 2: of what police say he did.

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Speaker 1: And yes, they say he did, and they also say

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Speaker 1: that he said he did. We did give some updates

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Speaker 1: from police among some of the updates to the fact

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Speaker 1: that they say he did admit it. We'll tell you

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Speaker 1: more about that in a second, but the update at

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Speaker 1: least from right now robes he's making his first court

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Speaker 1: appearance again. This wasn't the arraignment that's supposed to come

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Speaker 1: August twenty fifth, but for now. One of the headlines

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Speaker 1: that did come out is that they are not going

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Speaker 1: to let him out of jail anytime soon. Bond was denied.

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Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. He was also assigned

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Speaker 2: to public defender. It was unclear whether or not he

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Speaker 2: had already acquired an attorney. He had not, so he

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Speaker 2: was given a public defender and they'll be getting things

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Speaker 2: together next couple of weeks before his arraignment on the

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth. So he didn't enter a plea today or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. This was just to let him know

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Speaker 2: he would not be given bail, which makes a tremendous

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Speaker 2: amount of sense, perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: But this information we're just getting because we were just

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Speaker 1: in court before we started recording here. But we did

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Speaker 1: get new information from police at least overnight. We were

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Speaker 1: wondering and waiting Robes when we first heard about this crime,

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Speaker 1: about some of the details like what was happening on

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Speaker 1: this hike and people were around, and why not bothered

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Speaker 1: the daughters and how did the daughters get away? Well,

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Speaker 1: that was a big part of the story we now know,

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Speaker 1: and we all wondered, you were sure like their last moments,

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Speaker 1: these parents were probably trying to protect their kids. But

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Speaker 1: the details robes are even more gut renting and even

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Speaker 1: make you more proud in viewing another parent as you

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Speaker 1: can be.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Clinton and Kristen Brink are the two. That's

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Speaker 2: the couple, the parents who were murdered, and we now

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Speaker 2: also learned that they were stabbed to death. But police

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Speaker 2: told us that what happened, you had our suspect, Andrew

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Speaker 2: James McGann attacking Clinton the father first. That's when Kristen

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Speaker 2: the mom, got the two little girls seven and nine

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Speaker 2: years old, to safety. So she rushed them out immediately,

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Speaker 2: got them to safety further along on the trail, but

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Speaker 2: then she went back to go help her husband Clinton,

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Speaker 2: and that is when police say Andrew James McGann then

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Speaker 2: stabbed her to death as well. So it's just such

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Speaker 2: a heroic thing first for her to get her kids

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Speaker 2: off and far away from danger, but then to turn

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Speaker 2: around and head back to help her husband. My god,

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Speaker 2: that is a love story for her children and a

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Speaker 2: love story for her husband.

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Speaker 1: As they say sometimes and not making light. But she's

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Speaker 1: a good one, Ain't she a good one? Ain't she

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Speaker 1: a keeper? To think she? I mean, I wonder just

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Speaker 1: think in those moments, she had to make some kind

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Speaker 1: of decision to balance are they safe enough? Who needs

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Speaker 1: me more? Now? Right? Wow? She had to go back.

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Speaker 1: She had to make that call because she could have.

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Speaker 1: And I think no one would falter if she kept

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Speaker 1: going with the kids and made sure she got away,

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure that's probably what the husband would have preferred.

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Speaker 2: I think every mom asked herself what she would do,

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Speaker 2: and every wife asked herself what she would do, And

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Speaker 2: you know, you do have to make a split second decision.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting emotional thinking about it because on one hand,

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Speaker 2: you know, they actually had another daughter back at home

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Speaker 2: by the way, so they had three girls who need

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Speaker 2: their parents, And I don't know, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: the right call would have been. Of course, I think

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Speaker 2: it's interesting you pointed out, as the husband, you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: want her to come back. You would want her to

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Speaker 2: keep running, go, go, and we.

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Speaker 1: Can sit here and think about that now. Awfully, in

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Speaker 1: the moment, she it was instinct, and I'm sure she

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Speaker 1: felt good enough as a mom that the kids were okay.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she saw somebody else on the trail, because somebody

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Speaker 1: did ended up did end up finding kids on the

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Speaker 1: trail and helping them. But just to hear now this

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Speaker 1: detail all the scenarios we thought about. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: about that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were about a half mile into the trail,

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Speaker 2: and it's a popular trail, but you know how trails

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Speaker 2: are there few and far between. You you see people

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Speaker 2: maybe every half mile or so. But I started thinking

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Speaker 2: there had to have been screaming. How did no one hear?

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Speaker 2: Could she not have been screaming for help? I imagine

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Speaker 2: like having my girls and running and screaming for help.

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Speaker 2: You know, you just don't know what you would do.

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Speaker 2: But the kids were close enough to another hiker. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we were wondering how they found their way back to

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Speaker 2: the visitor center, because that seemed surreal and almost impossible

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Speaker 2: for two little girls to navigate their way through a

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Speaker 2: trail and having to go the opposite way wherever this

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Speaker 2: danger was, but another hiker did find the girls and

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Speaker 2: then called nine one one immediately and then got them

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Speaker 2: to the visitor center. And that series of events certainly

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Speaker 2: makes a lot more sense than what we re speculating.

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Speaker 1: And if we haven't said here now the girls were

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Speaker 1: seven and nine years old, you can't imagine what they're

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Speaker 1: going through now and what they saw. They experienced this

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Speaker 1: as well, but ended up on harm. That was part

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Speaker 1: of the new information. We got some other new details

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Speaker 1: from police. So they're saying he has admitted to the

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Speaker 1: crime the way they put it initially, and I wonder

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Speaker 1: if they were trying to be careful with language here.

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Speaker 1: But the the person, the investigator who was in charge,

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Speaker 1: made the statement that he indicated that was the word,

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Speaker 1: indicated that he had committed the crimes. And then she

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Speaker 1: was asked specifically was it a confession, and she said,

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Speaker 1: I would call it an admission, So I wonder what

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Speaker 1: they're being careful.

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Speaker 2: The legal difference is between an admission and a confession.

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Speaker 2: Maybe a confession you actually usually will sign. They will

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Speaker 2: ask you to write it out and then they'll ask

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Speaker 2: you to sign a confession. So maybe he didn't do that,

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Speaker 2: but verbally acknowledged that he was the one responsible. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to know.

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Speaker 1: That probably is some kind of legal fine line because

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Speaker 1: sometimes confessions get thrown out. Yes, that happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: But if he just told it to you without you

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Speaker 1: trying to course anyway, maybe that is the difference. What

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Speaker 1: they should use that language. I would call it an admission.

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Speaker 1: We told you the new details about the attack. Something

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Speaker 1: else here. It turns out there were quite a few

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Speaker 1: witnesses that sounds like robes that saw this guy at

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Speaker 1: some point before and even after, yes, attack.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a couple reported seeing a man with blood on

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Speaker 2: his face, and so that was actually how people then

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Speaker 2: were able to see which car he got into, and

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Speaker 2: that is how police were able to track him. So, yes,

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Speaker 2: all of those eyewitnesses, folks who some of the folks

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Speaker 2: who took videos and pictures and unknowingly captured him certainly

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Speaker 2: helped find him. There was the couple who was able

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Speaker 2: to describe his face to police to give that sketch

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Speaker 2: that certainly was spot on, and then others were able

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Speaker 2: to And this is when the police were saying they

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Speaker 2: were trying to connect the dots and doing all these

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Speaker 2: interviews before they made the announcement to local residents that

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Speaker 2: there was a double murderer on the loose, but they

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Speaker 2: were doing all of these interviews, piecing it together so

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Speaker 2: they could follow him and find him. But yes, people,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's not something obviously you would forget if

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Speaker 2: you saw someone running past you on a hiking trail

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Speaker 2: with blood on their face, you know, And it worked.

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Speaker 1: Look, I credit to the police on this and to

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Speaker 1: the community up there that listened, that paid attention. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as they said they put that sketch out,

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Speaker 1: they started getting They said they were They used the

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Speaker 1: word we were flooded with tips in asking people in

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Speaker 1: an area like that where you know, people have been

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Speaker 1: taking pictures and got video. Said hey, people, just check

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Speaker 1: what you have and they said there was video footage

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Speaker 1: that they got that was so key in tracking this

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Speaker 1: guy down. So I mean applaud the community and all

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Speaker 1: you folks who did what they asked you to do.

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Speaker 2: It was that car that led them to him, and

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Speaker 2: someone actually got a video of the car and saw

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Speaker 2: that the license plate was covered with duct tapes, so

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Speaker 2: they knew exactly what they were looking for and they

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Speaker 2: were able to track his car to spring Dale, Arkansas,

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Speaker 2: and that is exactly how they found him in that

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Speaker 2: barber shop. That's remarkable.

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Speaker 1: I know, I told you I guess obas So we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit. Everybody knows I'm from Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: I went to the university that's in the area up there.

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Speaker 1: But we were there not too long ago for my

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Speaker 1: niece's birthday in Springdale, and we stayed in Springdale.

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Speaker 2: Or Race's wedding, right you said birthday?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it was her celebratory. Yeah, something was going

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Speaker 1: on in which we were.

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Speaker 2: It was a wedding.

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Speaker 1: I had to get her a gift, Okay, but I did.

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Speaker 1: I could show you on the map. It's a five

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Speaker 1: minute drive that barbershop from where we had that wow

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Speaker 1: Mexican casa and I can't remember casa something that we.

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Speaker 2: Had a wonderful Mexican lunch with your sister there in

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Speaker 2: Springdale on that main road.

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Speaker 1: And we always remember you. They wouldn't let us have

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Speaker 1: drinks outside. Do you remember that?

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Speaker 2: We wanted to sit in the sun so badly and

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Speaker 2: we had to. We could only have a margarita inside

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Speaker 2: if we sat on the patio. It had to be

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Speaker 2: alcohol stree. It was a very memorable lunch.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that? But yes, the what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and so we people think about don't know northwest Arkansas

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Speaker 1: that well, this has been a sprawling area in one

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Speaker 1: of the highest or the fastest growing areas in the

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Speaker 1: country or the past ten years or so. So this

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Speaker 1: is a booming place. This is not out in the

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Speaker 1: booni somewhere, but where he was found was dead center

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Speaker 1: in the middle of everything. You were there, you saw, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this area, this is a bustling area, and this is adorable.

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Speaker 1: And the thing he's just roaming around, walking around, Hey,

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Speaker 1: it's not our haircut.

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Speaker 2: Hiding in plain sight, and certainly didn't seem concerned.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he did.

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Speaker 2: He did not seem concerned at all that police were

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Speaker 2: going to find him, which is so interesting because I

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Speaker 2: would think he had seen this sketch artist, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the sketch rendering of him and the photo of him

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Speaker 2: from behind. If I saw that and saw it, dang,

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Speaker 2: they did a pretty good job. Looks just like me.

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Speaker 2: And his vehicle description was out there as well. So

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Speaker 2: that's just interesting that he had zero concern about being caught,

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Speaker 2: that he just thought he'd get a haircut.

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Speaker 1: And to that point as well. Police did say they

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Speaker 1: found things in his apartment that indicated that he had

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Speaker 1: been keeping up with what was going on with his crime.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he was looking at the news reports. And also

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Speaker 2: they said they found blood in his car and they

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Speaker 2: actually were able to link his blood directly to the

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Speaker 2: crime scene, so they've got plenty of evidence that they've

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Speaker 2: got the right guy. He also had injuries to his hands,

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Speaker 2: some cuts from the attack itself, but.

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Speaker 1: One of the most Yes, after the crime, shocking enough

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Speaker 1: he was captured. The next shock came in finding out

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Speaker 1: he is an elementary school teacher. And now some are

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Speaker 1: wondering how were the signs missed? Because the next question is, well,

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Speaker 1: there weren't any necessarily signs because he passed background check

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Speaker 1: after background check after background check. But parents, especially some

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Speaker 1: now in Texas, are arguing these administrators dropped the ball

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Speaker 1: with this guy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ,

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Speaker 2: where we are talking about Andrew James McCann, the twenty

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Speaker 2: eight year old elementary school teacher who is now facing

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Speaker 2: double murder charges in the state of Arkansas for killing

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Speaker 2: that couple who was hiking with their young daughters, and

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Speaker 2: so many people are asking how this guy had been

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Speaker 2: able to go from school district to school district and

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Speaker 2: no one saw, no one heard, no one recognized any

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Speaker 2: sort of warning signs that this something might be off

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Speaker 2: with this man. And you know, we've had school district

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Speaker 2: after school districts say hey, we did our due diligence,

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Speaker 2: we did the background checks. This guy is clean. There's

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Speaker 2: no disciplinary actions on his record that would make us

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Speaker 2: not want to hire him.

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Speaker 1: That's all true. What do you do, hey, if all

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Speaker 1: that's true, what are you supposed to do? I really

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Speaker 1: do ask that, somewhat rhetorically, but in all honesty, Well,

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Speaker 1: how do you read someone say, you know what, just

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Speaker 1: don't have a good feeling about this guy, because it

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Speaker 1: seems like a lot of people did have that.

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Speaker 2: I think that is part of the interview process and

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Speaker 2: should be considered one hundred percent if you're going to

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Speaker 2: be dealing with our most precious resources or our most

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Speaker 2: precious gifts are children. But there were some warning signs.

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Speaker 2: Turns out, so he was a teacher in Oklahoma, correct

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Speaker 2: sand Spring School District and Broken Aero School District. He

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Speaker 2: passed the background checks.

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Speaker 1: Those were the two he was at in the two

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Speaker 1: prior years before coming to Springdale. So that would mean

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Speaker 1: three school districts in three different years.

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Speaker 2: That's a red flag.

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Speaker 1: That should be a red flag.

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Speaker 2: But and by the way, he was about to start

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Speaker 2: Springdale School District. I mean, he was weeks away from

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Speaker 2: being a teacher to all of those children there in

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Speaker 2: the Springdale area, which is so scary. But when you

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Speaker 2: go back to twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: that school year he was in the Lewisville School District

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Speaker 2: in Texas, And this is where parents are pointing to

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Speaker 2: a situation that occurred that should have been why wasn't

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Speaker 2: it on his record? And certainly talking to these parents,

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Speaker 2: they're confused as well. So he was placed on administrative

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Speaker 2: leave and he ultimately resigned. And there is a reason

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Speaker 2: that is listed for his resignation slash administrative leave concerns

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Speaker 2: related to classroom management, professional judgment, and student favoritism.

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Speaker 1: Now, that doesn't sound terrible. He doesn't sound like this

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Speaker 1: is a nut. It doesn't sound like experson is a

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Speaker 1: threat necessarily. It sounds like they might be bad at

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Speaker 1: their job at the beginning, does it not? That doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound awful.

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Speaker 2: And maybe you're thinking, so he's twenty eight now, so

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Speaker 2: three years ago he was twenty five. I mean young.

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Speaker 2: I think so you could reasonably think, Okay, he's just

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Speaker 2: young and inexperienced, and this isn't necessarily some character flaw,

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Speaker 2: but maybe an experience issue or a maturity issue. You

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Speaker 2: could see possibly how that would be the I guess

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Speaker 2: the conclusion that they could come to.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but they looked into it. So after some things

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Speaker 1: came to their attention, the district there did do an

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Speaker 1: investigation and they claim, and I quote, they did not

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Speaker 1: find any evidence of inappropriate behavior with a student. However,

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Speaker 1: we did find his classroom management and professional judgment to

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Speaker 1: be below our district expectations. Ultimately, mister McGahn resigned in

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Speaker 1: May of twenty twenty three, and that is the end

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Speaker 1: of it. But there are parents there who are saying

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Speaker 1: it's not that simple, just he was bad at managing

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Speaker 1: a classroom robes, and they are telling some stories of

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Speaker 1: behavior that they saw or they suspected or made them uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: and it seems nothing was done about that.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So several of these parents have spoken to

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Speaker 2: multiple news outlets. There was a parent that spoke to CBS,

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Speaker 2: who said that there were signs that not all was

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Speaker 2: right with mister McGann. And this woman specifically says that

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Speaker 2: she actually her son came to her and said he

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Speaker 2: was uncomfortable with how mister McGann treated specifically female students,

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Speaker 2: claiming that he gave them extra treats, kept some of

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Speaker 2: them in his classroom alone during recess, and she said

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Speaker 2: the worst part was when her son came home and

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Speaker 2: told her this story that he saw mister McGann tell

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Speaker 2: one of the little girls. And again, this is a

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Speaker 2: fourth grade class, correct, I think these were fourth graders

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Speaker 2: at the time. If you were older, I would love

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Speaker 2: to marry you. And so this parent said her son

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Speaker 2: heard that and was so upset he came home and

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Speaker 2: started crying. So it disturbed her that much, and so

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Speaker 2: she ultimately said, you drop your kids off every day,

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Speaker 2: and we were literally wrapping our kids off to a monster.

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Speaker 2: The fact that he was allowed to continue teaching is

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Speaker 2: what blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: Okay, they read it, they saw something in him, but

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it just weird behavior? Is that enough?

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Speaker 2: It should be? I think when it comes to a

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Speaker 2: teacher and students, yes, if you have a teacher who

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Speaker 2: is displaying bizarre, just bizarre tendencies and certainly favorite showing

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Speaker 2: favoritism towards your female students when they're that little. That's scary.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let me ask you this then, And this

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Speaker 1: is something that every educator probably out there going. Y'all

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Speaker 1: don't even understand a shortage of teachers, a shortage of

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Speaker 1: help moving around and trying to get and feel positions

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Speaker 1: in time for school. Okay, So this guy as an example,

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Speaker 1: what's going on when this guy starting the age twenty five,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty young to be in charge of some kids. Fine,

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Speaker 1: you can be twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, Texas

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Speaker 1: School District, twenty twenty three, Oklahoma School District twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: Another Oklahoma school district, twenty twenty five. He was supposed

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Speaker 1: to start in Arkansas. That's four straight years, that's four

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Speaker 1: different school districts. Something's wrong there. Yes, his record isn't

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Speaker 1: following him. He got into trouble at that first school district,

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Speaker 1: but the next one, the next one and the next one

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Speaker 1: have no idea about that.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing on record that anything happened. But why did

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Speaker 2: he keep moving? Why did he keep leaving. It could

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Speaker 2: have been uncomfortable for whatever reason. We don't know. We

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Speaker 2: haven't heard anything yet from those other school districts, but

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Speaker 2: certainly from other parents who say, now, I mean, of course,

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Speaker 2: it's Monday morning quarterbacking. It's always easy to be able

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Speaker 2: to look back and say, ah, I did think something

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Speaker 2: was off. It's hard in the moment to recognize if

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Speaker 2: someone's just antisocial, or has social development issues, or is

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Speaker 2: actually homicidal and a mania.

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Speaker 1: You would never go that route, would.

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Speaker 2: You wouldn't think it, You wouldn't jump go that far.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean this is other parents were saying. Several parents noticed,

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Speaker 2: myself included he was off. He was just very disinterested

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Speaker 2: one word answers. One parent described her son being uncomfortable. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so it's just it's little things here and there, but

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Speaker 2: nothing where someone should have said, this guy could go off,

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Speaker 2: this guy could snap.

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Speaker 1: Well, they are in Texas at least some starting to

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Speaker 1: call for something to be done. They think something fell

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Speaker 1: through the cracks here and something was missed. Someone on

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Speaker 1: the state member of the state Board of Education has

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Speaker 1: called for a thorough investigation robe, saying we got to

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Speaker 1: make sure at least that we didn't miss something. Maybe

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Speaker 1: this is just one of those things where there's no

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Speaker 1: way the system can do anything about this. But man,

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Speaker 1: if you hire somebody at your school district to take

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Speaker 1: care of eight year old children, don't you want to

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Speaker 1: know if that person has something on their record, yes,

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Speaker 1: that caused them to actually have disciplinary action. You would

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Speaker 1: need to know that and know why I would call

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Speaker 1: down to the squot hate. So tell me what happened.

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Speaker 1: Can I talk to some of those parents? You would

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Speaker 1: like to hear that as a thorough vetting, and you

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Speaker 1: might make a different decision. I don't know what legally

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Speaker 1: they can do, what unions protect, that's.

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Speaker 2: A tough one, but I do you know, this could

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Speaker 2: be a tiny, tiny silver lining if there are some

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Speaker 2: changes implemented, if there are more safety nets put in place.

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Speaker 2: You can't always know what someone's thinking and who they

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Speaker 2: are in their hearts they're not willing to show you.

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Speaker 2: But perhaps if there are a few extra safety measures

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Speaker 2: put in place in some of these school districts, that

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Speaker 2: could be one small good thing that comes out of

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Speaker 2: really senseless, horrific tragedy. That we will continue to follow

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Speaker 2: all the latest developments on thank you for listening to

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Speaker 2: us on this Friday. I'm Amy Robot alongside my partner

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Speaker 2: t J Holmes. Have a great day, everybody,