WEBVTT - Is privacy an illusion? 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.160 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.040 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.040 today we're gonna devote some time to a question we'll 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.200 see from a listener by the name of Oscar. That's right. Yeah, 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.400 we can't see his last name for privacy reasons, which 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.720 which is interesting because this whole podcast is going to 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.160 be about the idea of privacy. What is it? Does 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.319 it exist? Is it an illusion? Is it dead? Uh? 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.120 You know all the various Do we care too much 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.120 about privacy? Yeah? Yeah, Um And yet Oscar, a longtime listener, 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.920 brought this up, and he sent us a really very 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.200 thought provoking long email about this. So we won't read 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.199 the entire email, but just to kind of get this 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.640 conversation kick started. Um and for a context, we'll just 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.200 read a little bit. Um. His email says, I just 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:56.680 listened to the Eat Popcorn podcast and I was glad 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.640 of how it moved from the subliminal messaging to the 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.160 private see issue. Um. In the podcast, July expresses concern 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.160 of how she feels that she is giving away too 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.520 much of her personal information to vendors and in general, 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.000 to the world out there. That makes me ask, why 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.440 are people so paranoid about sharing information? I understand that 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.240 in the past, the security and responsibility of your information 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.240 lied with the individuals. If I moved across the scene 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.440 upon arrival said my name was John Doe, they would 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.160 have no choice, no other choice than to believe that 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.759 I was John Doe and start gathering information from there. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.199 But and this is a big butt, I mean font 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.119 size one plus, we are living in this so called 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.319 era of information. Information is not only power, it is 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.080 becoming part of the basic structure of our civilization. I'll 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.040 admit that as a civilization we are still learning how 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:44.920 to deal with it, how to process it, how to 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.640 use this new power we just got. But that is 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.720 the whole point. We need to admit to the fact 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.000 that we need training in the upgrade, if you will. 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.600 I love the point about crossing an ocean and changing 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.680 your name, because I that's one thing that instantly comes 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.800 to mind with all these more or we're we're you know, 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:03.840 logged into these different accounts, and we have all these 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.280 you know, we have identification numbers, and the government knows 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.000 where we are and the state government knows where we 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.200 are that you can't just you know, do pull a 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.640 Don Draper and just back up somewhere else and to 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.400 clear yourself a new person, which is which is an 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.600 attractive idea. Everybody loves the idea of being able to 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.160 start over, to be able, the idea of just getting 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.400 in your vehicle and like just driving and just wherever 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.480 it takes you, you're gonna wind up. Well, think about 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.519 our ancestors to um many of nsistors here in the 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.720 United States have that experience. I mean, I can I 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.560 can tell you two different relatives that change their name 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.040 upon arrival to the United States, um, you know, for 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.679 political um reasons, so on and so forth. So yeah, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.440 I mean we don't have that. I guess you could 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.640 call it a lecture, even though that this were pretty 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:53.480 hard times and people are escaping very um horrible circumstances 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.640 in order to to attain a new identity. Yeah, because 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.160 I mean we're we're broadcasting from Georgia, where you know, 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.320 all the really you know, hardcore Georgians you know, descended 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.160 from people who came over in the sex criminal boats. 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.160 So and I know we have Australian listeners out there. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.119 You know, it's it's like I imagine it's the same 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.560 thing there. There's there's this sense of going to a 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.880 new any kind of frontier colony environment. You know, people 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.200 went there and they might have had kind of a 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.760 crappy past, but they were able to start over and 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:22.520 then if they screwed up again, they just needed to 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.920 move further out into the wilds. And uh and just 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.560 as many start doovers as you need till you get 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.840 it right right, they didn't have all this looming information 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.280 out there, but what they just eight or what they 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.240 just spent money on or uh, yeah, they're they're criminal 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.640 records essentially. Um. So it made me, I think, it's 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.560 just a very intriguing question. Made me think, is it 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.760 really just an illusion, this privacy? Um? And is it 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.240 a is it some sort of remnant of our past, 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:55.760 particularly Americans, this idea of rugged individualism that just doesn't 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.440 exist anymore. Because it's worth noting that the word privacy 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:05.120 is uh. Some linguists consider it untranslatable into various tongues. Um. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.760 Many languages lack a specific word for it. Uh. And 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.200 and you end up with complex descriptions like I believe 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.720 in Russian Uh. It ends up meaning something about like 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.279 basically solitude. Um. And the the original our word, our 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.440 English word privacy comes from the Latin privatus. Does that 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.840 sound right? That sounds good? Separated from means, separated from 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.000 the rest, deprived of something um and uh and often 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.920 ends up having a legal or governmental use right. And 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.599 and when we live in communities, we always know that 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:41.640 there's some sort of trade off for living in a 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.240 community and being supported in a community, right, Like you're 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.320 not just no, no man is an island unto himself, 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.479 and if he is, he might be the UNI bomber, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.520 right well, yeah, and it it goes in, it spills 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.279 over into the whole issue of like libel suits and slander. 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.440 You know, who can be slandered, who can be liabel? 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.719 Like different different laws, different rules apply. Uh, you know, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.960 if you're a private citizen or if you're a public servant, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:07.800 or if you're a you know, I you know, I'm 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.600 a top tier celebrity. So um, it varies greatly depending 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:14.839 on who you are and how how out there you 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:16.800 are in the world. Yeah, and I wanted to read 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.800 just a little bit more to um concerning this illusion 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.440 of privacy. He talks about a worldwide civilization when the 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.960 borders are gone, which I think is very interesting, right, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.160 because so much of our lives are being played out online. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.120 So more on that. On another email, he says, but uh, 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.760 in your everyday life, you're the car you drive, the 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.320 gadgets you use, the clothes you wear, the way that 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.320 you dress your kids, what you do for a living, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.400 even the way that you walk, the way you comb 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.920 your hair. They all give away the story of who 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.000 you are. But that's fine. It is the way that 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.680 information is supposed to be free. Information is valuable, but 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.159 it's not a physical thing. It baffles me why people 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.160 want to treat it as if it was building vaults 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.960 for it, restricting access to it, when the fact is 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.159 that the more information those, the easier it is to 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:07.480 keep it safe. Well, one could make that argument, yeah, yeah, um, 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.440 and he does. He goes onto the argument and talk 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.600 talking about the sort of transparency in society. I mean 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:17.320 even surveillance, right, um, cameras that if if we know 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.760 that we're being taped, if we know we're being looked at, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.120 that we're not necessarily going to do things, um, outside 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:28.480 of the law. So again, interesting interesting fodder here because 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.800 I understand what he's saying. There's so much of ourselves 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:35.800 that we're already revealing. Um. And yet and yet it 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.440 feels like for me personally that if it's being used 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.279 for consumption purposes, for for businesses, that it doesn't feel 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.159 like uh maybe part of the bargain that that I 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.200 was hoping for. I can't help but think of like 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.960 old you know, the old Biblical and uh, you know 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.279 accounts of say like Adam and Eve where it's like 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.040 they live in this perfect society when they're naked, and 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.960 then when you introduce uh, you know, sin and all, 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.880 they suddenly they have to cover up, they have to 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:06.560 use leaves, they have to It's like the birth of 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.320 privacy and uh. And so there's this I can definitely 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.560 understand the idea of you know, if there are no 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.760 you know, if everybody's naked in you know, an informational sense, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.440 then there wouldn't be any issues, you know, because what 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.720 are you gonna what are you gonna hide? Right? How 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.360 are someone going to use it against you? You know, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.560 you can't be blackmailed, right. That's the like any movie 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.960 about blackmail, it's like that's always seems to be one 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:30.480 of the options on the table. It's like, well, I'm 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.840 just gonna come clean about this political scandal before someone 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.480 can blackmail me or you know, and it robs the 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.480 blackmailer of their power. Well and even wiki leaks right right, um, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:44.200 which has its been pretty illuminating information. Um. And and 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.800 so many people would argue with that this is necessary, right. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.840 A lot of people do make that argument. Yeah, um 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.480 so and I just to to bring up the naked 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.360 analogy too. I was sort of thinking myself, well, why 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.680 do I have a problem with with privacy or what 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.280 I perceive of is the lack of privacy right in 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.360 our technological days. Um, because I don't have anything to 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.800 have to have a I'll lead a pretty mundane life. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.640 But I think it's still that's exactly what a person 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.480 with a dark history would say on a podcast. Sure 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.320 they would, Yeah, I'm just talking about my name is 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.840 Julie Douglas, okay, um. But you know, it is that 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.320 idea again and and and so for me, it's this 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.960 question of is it just like this antiquated American idea 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:31.400 of individualism that you know that is melting away. As 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.760 Oscar talks about civilization, a worldwide one where the borders 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.160 are gone, right, well, I mean then there there are 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.960 also plenty of issues like like like how far do 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.200 you take privacy? It's like, uh, you know, there's that 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:50.000 old adage, which is thankfully disappearing in the United States, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:51.800 But the whole, the whole thing of like, well, what 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.240 a person does in the privacy their their own bedroom 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.720 is their business, and generally that brings with it the 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.560 assumption that that that whatever is going on doesn't need 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.000 to be known, and that if it were known there 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:08.440 might be uh some sort of repercussions for it, you know. So, um, 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.240 I guess like the mystery has gone. Yeah. But but 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.440 it's also it's like the idea that privacy like Oscar's 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.360 argument that the more the less privacy there is and 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.120 the more the information is free flowing, the safer we are. 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.560 But clearly history and even in modern times, there are 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:29.319 plenty of situations where privacy saves human lives and makes 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:34.719 human lives safe in uh, in societies or under governments 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.160 that are less tolerant or it is completely intolerant of 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.680 different ways of life, different political ideologies. Um, you know, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:45.320 it becomes necessary for us to hide from one another 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.120 because sometimes the eyes that are looking you know, are 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.480 are powered by nefarious brains. Okay, So that is I 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.320 think a really interesting point and a good way to 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.439 talk about the Patriot Act. Right. We sort of debated 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.520 about whether or not we talk about it at the 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.600 end of the today, this is a really good example 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:09.040 of of why privacy matters. Um, and just for everybody. UM, 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.520 just a little reminder about the Patriot Act that you know, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.120 after none eleven, it brought sweeping changes to the way 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:18.360 the government accesses and utilizes information about private citizens. Um. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.720 It's been criticized as undermining civil liberties, particularly parts of 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.040 the counter surveillance law. Right. How easy it is to 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.160 get wire taps in this sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:27.680 and you know you don't have to get a quarter 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.439 or um. FBI can also search telephone, email and financial 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.079 records without a court order. Um. And the problem here 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.920 is that it can those that that sort of wide 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.120 latitude can be used outside of the context in which 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.800 it was originally meant for. Right. I mean it supposed 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.920 to be to go after terrorists, but um, and then 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.079 you know you do have FBI saying up until two 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.000 thousand and five, no, it's never been abused Okay, So 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.040 now you have other reports that have surfaced, um from 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.200 this is from first Amint Mint Center dot org, New 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.400 York Times, and Business Week. They all reported on this 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.760 that it's that actually the Patriot Act has been used 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.559 outside of its original context to remove homeless people from 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.760 trained stations, to pursue drug rings, and to collect financial 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:17.600 data on random visitors to Las Vegas. Yeah, so that 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.720 is random there. Um, so you know already and you know, um, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.320 have a human mind works and historically how we have 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.680 behaved and when you have that sort of what I 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.240 think in this case is is an unbalanced here right 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.720 of power, but it can be used very readily against people. 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.000 And as you say, if you know, thankfully we live 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.360 in the United States, and at least we we think 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.520 that we live in a society in which our privacy 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.720 and our individual rights are respected. But you know, still 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.439 there's gray area there, and certainly there are other countries 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.760 in which people are not treated as fairly right. And 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.559 you know, like the period of McCarthyism wasn't that long 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:03.040 ago when digging around to find the evidence of communism 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:07.880 and people's past and people becoming blacklisted, Yeah, and um, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.000 and at risk of sounding like you know, some sort 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.120 of a radical. It's it's any time a government is 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.160 given power, any time people hand over power to a government. Uh, 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.160 generally it's a little naive to expect the government and 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.760 to hand that power back over when they're done with 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.960 one particular gold or another, especially if that goal is 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.720 something say like defeating terrorism or you know, or or 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.080 winning the war on drugs or something that is it's 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.640 largely unattainable anyway. Yeah, and so you know, you got 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.480 that's the things that we need to consider when looking 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.640 at privacy. UM. And I do like Oscar's idea that 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.120 it's it's beneficial, you know that there's we are going 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.920 to obey the better angels of our nature and use 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.960 it the right ways. Um. I do think there's that possibility. 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.360 But we have already seen as a as I talked about, 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.319 that it's been used outside of its contact at least 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.720 the Patriot Act has. And uh, we will never know 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.000 the far ranging effects of the Patriot Act until much later. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.200 A lot of that is because even the reports have 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.000 been filed, much of it has been redacted, so you 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.200 can if you're if you go to look at that report, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.160 you might be able to see that the subject was 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.160 a female or a male, but pretty much everything else 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.280 is going to be blacked out. So it's hard to 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.440 say when you have a government that's not being fully 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.960 transparent itself. And of course they will say, you know, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.800 we need to do that for security reasons, and you 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.760 know there's an angle there that that is relevant. Um. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.800 But I think what is interesting to me about the 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:39.240 Patriot Act and uh, where we as a society sort 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.360 of came into our technological Uh I don't know, what 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.199 would you say, like our maturity maybe. Um, these things 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.000 seem to have dovetailed at the same time. Right, So 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.360 after None eleven, Uh, you have the Patriot Act, and 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.560 you also have people using the Internet and unprecedented numbers 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.880 and sharing information, our personal lives flowing onto it. Um. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.120 Like I mean, I remember when I first got on 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.120 my Space. Um, you young listeners may not remember my Space, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.320 but but it existed and I think still does. If 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.520 you're a band or something, you can still visit it. Yeah. Uh, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.120 but but I remember it felt like this frontier where 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.080 it was like it was just a whole bunch of 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.520 young people who wanted to hang out or date each other, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.000 you know, So you didn't really think about, well, you know, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.360 who all this information you're putting out there, and and 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.240 then uh, and then later you realize, wow, that was 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.800 really stupid of me, you know, like the like the 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.600 we we we just talked in another podcast, The Cyber 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.520 Immortality about how we're different people. The person I was 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.200 a year ago as and who I am now. The 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.920 person a year from now isn't who I am now. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.600 Certainly you're my Space person isn't definitely not the same 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.680 person or now. Yeah, and so it's you know, it's 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.120 like the MySpace you from ten years ago wasn't concerned 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.680 with how about getting a job somewhere necessarily or or 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.480 you know, or or or what his or her you know, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.160 political opinions or social opinions at the time, we're compared 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.040 to what they might be at, you know, a decade later. 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.920 So um so so so it's interesting to see how 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.040 that's changed. Like I feel like a lot of us 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.720 are like that, where the Internet, what the Internet is, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.240 has has changed in that time, and then who we 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:19.400 are has has changed. But to a certain extent, a 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:20.800 lot of the data we put out there, they say, 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.280 it's like putting information in the in on the Internet 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.920 is like putting p in a swimming pool. There's no 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.680 not really a good way to get it out again. 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:37.080 You can delete anything. This presensation is brought to you 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:44.240 by Intel sponsors of tomorrow. Well, and what I was 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.280 thinking too, is because of the Patriot devetailing with our 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.240 increased involvement with the Internet, is is it on a 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.600 subconscious level? Of course, we don't have any scientific data 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.800 to back this up, but so this is just a question. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.680 But is it on some levels? Was that sort of 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.120 when we lost our privacy virginity? You know, like we 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.720 had a lot of us were very fearful at the time, 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.560 and um, certainly we know that the government was able 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.800 to pass the Act because of that. Um there was 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.960 a juggernaut of emotion. Yeah, following not eleven um and so, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.240 and we all know that we act irrationally, and when 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.840 we're controlled by fear of our brain makes different decisions. 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.840 So once we sort of handed over the reins that way, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.600 at least symbolically, if not everybody was affected by the 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.040 Patriot Act, did we then sort of say okay, and 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.440 then we're on this thing called the Internet and we're 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.480 exchanging all of this information and it's really neat, you know. 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.000 It's it's it's okay for me because I feel like 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.720 I'm getting something in return. I'm getting this instant gratification. Yeah, 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.560 it's like it's so it's like the you know, the 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.800 the revelation that, oh, the government's off in my business. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.040 You know, you get used to that idea and then uh, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:55.800 you know, it comes along the phone companies like, hey, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.240 we want to know where you are at all times, 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.560 and You're like, all right, I mean the phone's pretty cool. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.400 I can play a scrapple on it and and used 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.320 the map system to figure out where I am in Austin, Texas, 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.000 because I don't know if we would have made it 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.360 to the live recording. You. No, we wouldn't have made 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.320 it to the coffee shop and back had it not. Yeah, 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.800 we literally took out your iPhone and we're following the 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.840 dot as we were. Yeah, so maybe I you know, 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.640 I take that as the comforting bribe, but I'm giving 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.240 up something in the process. Well it's interesting to you 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.879 that that you're talking about the iPhone because there, um 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.800 there's a German Green Party politician his name is mult 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.560 Disputes and he went to court to find out what 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.879 his cell phone company, Deutsche Telecom, knew about his comings 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.160 and goings, because he was just sort of interested about 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.640 what sort of information they were amassing. He found out 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.560 that in a six month period from August thirty one, 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.359 two thousand and nine to February eight, two thousand and ten, 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.000 Deutsch Telecom had recorded and saved his longitude and latitude 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.560 coordinates more than thirty five thousand times UM. It traced 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.439 him from a train on the way to turn Langan 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.920 at the start of the day and then through the 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.320 following night when he was back home in Berlin. So 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.119 oftentimes this will happen. They'll they'll take the coordinates just 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.359 because they're the signal is sort of being rebooted. But 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.879 when they looked at this case that that wasn't it. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:19.000 It was just randomly sort of tracking his coordinates um, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.600 which begs the question, what do they want with all 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.200 that data? You know? What was Obviously they can say, well, 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.560 maybe he went here and there, and we can give 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.200 this to marketing firms and better pinpoint his interests and 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.360 translates to bigger dollars. That's a possibility, but it's it's 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.320 still sort of interesting how and all the legalis that 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.359 we sign off on with our contracts for cell phones 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.919 or even you know, for downloading application. There there's um 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.959 what we're sort of giving away that right to our 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.240 privacy when it comes to that, Yeah, that giant wall 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.280 of text that comes with any uh system contract or 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.600 device contracting. I mean who reads that? I think I 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:04.320 heard one, like one NPR story about a guy who 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.000 read or maybe as a woman who read the contract. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.600 But it's because if for a living they write those contracts, 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.800 but the normal people actually you know, leaf through. Does 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.680 it seems like you reach a fatigue point about one paragraph? Well, 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.680 I mean that's that's the whole point of legal ease, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.760 I think, right, is to to fatigue you to the 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.120 point you're like, oh fine, I'll just just sign off 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.639 by paragraph six. It's talking about like the river of 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.960 the soul and and uh and bounding the spirit to 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.679 opjects and things like that, right yeah, And you're like, 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:36.040 I kept rivers so I just want this application. Um. So, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.440 I mean it comes down to that sort of idea 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.000 of who does own our identity? Then? Um, and particularly 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.120 is we begin to store more and more data about 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.520 ourselves cloud computing and otherwise, Uh, you know, how is 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.400 that going to be played out in twenty years or 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.280 you know, we forever going to be tethered to a 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:57.240 company that owns our online uh projection of ourselves? Yeah, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:59.439 because I mean typically these companies have to sort of 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.680 play pr our niceties when when talking about this about 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.600 who owns the information or they kind of skirt around 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.679 the issue. But in the end, like take something like Flicker. 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.119 You know, you put a lot of your life onto 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.280 a Flicker account. Uh. I mean to the point where 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.159 like if you if you own a Flicker account and 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.920 you were to die, like the Flicker account would kind 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.440 of be an online um memorial too, you know only 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.520 need you might want that to live on, or you 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.600 might want that to live on for someone that you 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.480 you knew, and uh you know who owns that? Who 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.199 owns your your profile with all your your your thoughts 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.159 or bails and correspondences. And if you are deceased, do 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.439 you uh any longer have rights to those photos? Can 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.679 they be used by someone else? Yeah? Yeah, Um, so 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:43.760 sort of brings up some good questions about that. I 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:45.400 wanted to talk a little bit too about when you're 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.640 talking about my space and and you know who who 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.879