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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And

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Speaker 1: today we're gonna devote some time to a question we'll

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Speaker 1: see from a listener by the name of Oscar. That's right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we can't see his last name for privacy reasons, which

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Speaker 1: which is interesting because this whole podcast is going to

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Speaker 1: be about the idea of privacy. What is it? Does

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Speaker 1: it exist? Is it an illusion? Is it dead? Uh?

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Speaker 1: You know all the various Do we care too much

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Speaker 1: about privacy? Yeah? Yeah, Um And yet Oscar, a longtime listener,

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Speaker 1: brought this up, and he sent us a really very

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Speaker 1: thought provoking long email about this. So we won't read

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Speaker 1: the entire email, but just to kind of get this

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Speaker 1: conversation kick started. Um and for a context, we'll just

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Speaker 1: read a little bit. Um. His email says, I just

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Speaker 1: listened to the Eat Popcorn podcast and I was glad

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Speaker 1: of how it moved from the subliminal messaging to the

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Speaker 1: private see issue. Um. In the podcast, July expresses concern

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Speaker 1: of how she feels that she is giving away too

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Speaker 1: much of her personal information to vendors and in general,

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Speaker 1: to the world out there. That makes me ask, why

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Speaker 1: are people so paranoid about sharing information? I understand that

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Speaker 1: in the past, the security and responsibility of your information

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Speaker 1: lied with the individuals. If I moved across the scene

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Speaker 1: upon arrival said my name was John Doe, they would

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Speaker 1: have no choice, no other choice than to believe that

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Speaker 1: I was John Doe and start gathering information from there.

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Speaker 1: But and this is a big butt, I mean font

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Speaker 1: size one plus, we are living in this so called

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Speaker 1: era of information. Information is not only power, it is

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Speaker 1: becoming part of the basic structure of our civilization. I'll

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Speaker 1: admit that as a civilization we are still learning how

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Speaker 1: to deal with it, how to process it, how to

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Speaker 1: use this new power we just got. But that is

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Speaker 1: the whole point. We need to admit to the fact

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Speaker 1: that we need training in the upgrade, if you will.

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Speaker 1: I love the point about crossing an ocean and changing

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Speaker 1: your name, because I that's one thing that instantly comes

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Speaker 1: to mind with all these more or we're we're you know,

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Speaker 1: logged into these different accounts, and we have all these

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Speaker 1: you know, we have identification numbers, and the government knows

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Speaker 1: where we are and the state government knows where we

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Speaker 1: are that you can't just you know, do pull a

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Speaker 1: Don Draper and just back up somewhere else and to

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Speaker 1: clear yourself a new person, which is which is an

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Speaker 1: attractive idea. Everybody loves the idea of being able to

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Speaker 1: start over, to be able, the idea of just getting

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Speaker 1: in your vehicle and like just driving and just wherever

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Speaker 1: it takes you, you're gonna wind up. Well, think about

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Speaker 1: our ancestors to um many of nsistors here in the

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Speaker 1: United States have that experience. I mean, I can I

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Speaker 1: can tell you two different relatives that change their name

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Speaker 1: upon arrival to the United States, um, you know, for

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Speaker 1: political um reasons, so on and so forth. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we don't have that. I guess you could

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Speaker 1: call it a lecture, even though that this were pretty

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Speaker 1: hard times and people are escaping very um horrible circumstances

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Speaker 1: in order to to attain a new identity. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I mean we're we're broadcasting from Georgia, where you know,

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Speaker 1: all the really you know, hardcore Georgians you know, descended

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Speaker 1: from people who came over in the sex criminal boats.

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Speaker 1: So and I know we have Australian listeners out there.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's like I imagine it's the same

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Speaker 1: thing there. There's there's this sense of going to a

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Speaker 1: new any kind of frontier colony environment. You know, people

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Speaker 1: went there and they might have had kind of a

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Speaker 1: crappy past, but they were able to start over and

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Speaker 1: then if they screwed up again, they just needed to

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Speaker 1: move further out into the wilds. And uh and just

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Speaker 1: as many start doovers as you need till you get

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Speaker 1: it right right, they didn't have all this looming information

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Speaker 1: out there, but what they just eight or what they

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Speaker 1: just spent money on or uh, yeah, they're they're criminal

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Speaker 1: records essentially. Um. So it made me, I think, it's

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Speaker 1: just a very intriguing question. Made me think, is it

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Speaker 1: really just an illusion, this privacy? Um? And is it

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Speaker 1: a is it some sort of remnant of our past,

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Speaker 1: particularly Americans, this idea of rugged individualism that just doesn't

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Speaker 1: exist anymore. Because it's worth noting that the word privacy

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Speaker 1: is uh. Some linguists consider it untranslatable into various tongues. Um.

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Speaker 1: Many languages lack a specific word for it. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: and you end up with complex descriptions like I believe

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Speaker 1: in Russian Uh. It ends up meaning something about like

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Speaker 1: basically solitude. Um. And the the original our word, our

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Speaker 1: English word privacy comes from the Latin privatus. Does that

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Speaker 1: sound right? That sounds good? Separated from means, separated from

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Speaker 1: the rest, deprived of something um and uh and often

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Speaker 1: ends up having a legal or governmental use right. And

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Speaker 1: and when we live in communities, we always know that

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Speaker 1: there's some sort of trade off for living in a

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Speaker 1: community and being supported in a community, right, Like you're

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Speaker 1: not just no, no man is an island unto himself,

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Speaker 1: and if he is, he might be the UNI bomber,

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Speaker 1: right well, yeah, and it it goes in, it spills

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Speaker 1: over into the whole issue of like libel suits and slander.

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Speaker 1: You know, who can be slandered, who can be liabel?

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Speaker 1: Like different different laws, different rules apply. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a private citizen or if you're a public servant,

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Speaker 1: or if you're a you know, I you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: a top tier celebrity. So um, it varies greatly depending

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Speaker 1: on who you are and how how out there you

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Speaker 1: are in the world. Yeah, and I wanted to read

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Speaker 1: just a little bit more to um concerning this illusion

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Speaker 1: of privacy. He talks about a worldwide civilization when the

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Speaker 1: borders are gone, which I think is very interesting, right,

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Speaker 1: because so much of our lives are being played out online.

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Speaker 1: So more on that. On another email, he says, but uh,

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Speaker 1: in your everyday life, you're the car you drive, the

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Speaker 1: gadgets you use, the clothes you wear, the way that

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Speaker 1: you dress your kids, what you do for a living,

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Speaker 1: even the way that you walk, the way you comb

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Speaker 1: your hair. They all give away the story of who

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Speaker 1: you are. But that's fine. It is the way that

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Speaker 1: information is supposed to be free. Information is valuable, but

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Speaker 1: it's not a physical thing. It baffles me why people

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Speaker 1: want to treat it as if it was building vaults

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Speaker 1: for it, restricting access to it, when the fact is

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Speaker 1: that the more information those, the easier it is to

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Speaker 1: keep it safe. Well, one could make that argument, yeah, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: and he does. He goes onto the argument and talk

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Speaker 1: talking about the sort of transparency in society. I mean

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Speaker 1: even surveillance, right, um, cameras that if if we know

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Speaker 1: that we're being taped, if we know we're being looked at,

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Speaker 1: that we're not necessarily going to do things, um, outside

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Speaker 1: of the law. So again, interesting interesting fodder here because

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Speaker 1: I understand what he's saying. There's so much of ourselves

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Speaker 1: that we're already revealing. Um. And yet and yet it

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Speaker 1: feels like for me personally that if it's being used

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Speaker 1: for consumption purposes, for for businesses, that it doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like uh maybe part of the bargain that that I

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Speaker 1: was hoping for. I can't help but think of like

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Speaker 1: old you know, the old Biblical and uh, you know

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Speaker 1: accounts of say like Adam and Eve where it's like

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Speaker 1: they live in this perfect society when they're naked, and

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Speaker 1: then when you introduce uh, you know, sin and all,

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Speaker 1: they suddenly they have to cover up, they have to

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Speaker 1: use leaves, they have to It's like the birth of

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Speaker 1: privacy and uh. And so there's this I can definitely

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Speaker 1: understand the idea of you know, if there are no

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Speaker 1: you know, if everybody's naked in you know, an informational sense,

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Speaker 1: then there wouldn't be any issues, you know, because what

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Speaker 1: are you gonna what are you gonna hide? Right? How

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Speaker 1: are someone going to use it against you? You know,

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Speaker 1: you can't be blackmailed, right. That's the like any movie

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Speaker 1: about blackmail, it's like that's always seems to be one

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Speaker 1: of the options on the table. It's like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna come clean about this political scandal before someone

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Speaker 1: can blackmail me or you know, and it robs the

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Speaker 1: blackmailer of their power. Well and even wiki leaks right right, um,

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Speaker 1: which has its been pretty illuminating information. Um. And and

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Speaker 1: so many people would argue with that this is necessary, right.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people do make that argument. Yeah, um

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Speaker 1: so and I just to to bring up the naked

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Speaker 1: analogy too. I was sort of thinking myself, well, why

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Speaker 1: do I have a problem with with privacy or what

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Speaker 1: I perceive of is the lack of privacy right in

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Speaker 1: our technological days. Um, because I don't have anything to

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Speaker 1: have to have a I'll lead a pretty mundane life.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's still that's exactly what a person

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Speaker 1: with a dark history would say on a podcast. Sure

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Speaker 1: they would, Yeah, I'm just talking about my name is

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Speaker 1: Julie Douglas, okay, um. But you know, it is that

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Speaker 1: idea again and and and so for me, it's this

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Speaker 1: question of is it just like this antiquated American idea

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Speaker 1: of individualism that you know that is melting away. As

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Speaker 1: Oscar talks about civilization, a worldwide one where the borders

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Speaker 1: are gone, right, well, I mean then there there are

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Speaker 1: also plenty of issues like like like how far do

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Speaker 1: you take privacy? It's like, uh, you know, there's that

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Speaker 1: old adage, which is thankfully disappearing in the United States,

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Speaker 1: But the whole, the whole thing of like, well, what

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Speaker 1: a person does in the privacy their their own bedroom

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Speaker 1: is their business, and generally that brings with it the

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Speaker 1: assumption that that that whatever is going on doesn't need

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Speaker 1: to be known, and that if it were known there

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Speaker 1: might be uh some sort of repercussions for it, you know. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I guess like the mystery has gone. Yeah. But but

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Speaker 1: it's also it's like the idea that privacy like Oscar's

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Speaker 1: argument that the more the less privacy there is and

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Speaker 1: the more the information is free flowing, the safer we are.

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Speaker 1: But clearly history and even in modern times, there are

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Speaker 1: plenty of situations where privacy saves human lives and makes

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Speaker 1: human lives safe in uh, in societies or under governments

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Speaker 1: that are less tolerant or it is completely intolerant of

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Speaker 1: different ways of life, different political ideologies. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it becomes necessary for us to hide from one another

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Speaker 1: because sometimes the eyes that are looking you know, are

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Speaker 1: are powered by nefarious brains. Okay, So that is I

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Speaker 1: think a really interesting point and a good way to

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Speaker 1: talk about the Patriot Act. Right. We sort of debated

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Speaker 1: about whether or not we talk about it at the

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Speaker 1: end of the today, this is a really good example

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Speaker 1: of of why privacy matters. Um, and just for everybody. UM,

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Speaker 1: just a little reminder about the Patriot Act that you know,

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Speaker 1: after none eleven, it brought sweeping changes to the way

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Speaker 1: the government accesses and utilizes information about private citizens. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's been criticized as undermining civil liberties, particularly parts of

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Speaker 1: the counter surveillance law. Right. How easy it is to

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Speaker 1: get wire taps in this sort of thing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know you don't have to get a quarter

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Speaker 1: or um. FBI can also search telephone, email and financial

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Speaker 1: records without a court order. Um. And the problem here

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Speaker 1: is that it can those that that sort of wide

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Speaker 1: latitude can be used outside of the context in which

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Speaker 1: it was originally meant for. Right. I mean it supposed

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Speaker 1: to be to go after terrorists, but um, and then

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Speaker 1: you know you do have FBI saying up until two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, no, it's never been abused Okay, So

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Speaker 1: now you have other reports that have surfaced, um from

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Speaker 1: this is from first Amint Mint Center dot org, New

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Speaker 1: York Times, and Business Week. They all reported on this

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Speaker 1: that it's that actually the Patriot Act has been used

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Speaker 1: outside of its original context to remove homeless people from

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Speaker 1: trained stations, to pursue drug rings, and to collect financial

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Speaker 1: data on random visitors to Las Vegas. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 1: is random there. Um, so you know already and you know, um,

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Speaker 1: have a human mind works and historically how we have

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Speaker 1: behaved and when you have that sort of what I

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Speaker 1: think in this case is is an unbalanced here right

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Speaker 1: of power, but it can be used very readily against people.

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Speaker 1: And as you say, if you know, thankfully we live

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Speaker 1: in the United States, and at least we we think

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Speaker 1: that we live in a society in which our privacy

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Speaker 1: and our individual rights are respected. But you know, still

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Speaker 1: there's gray area there, and certainly there are other countries

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Speaker 1: in which people are not treated as fairly right. And

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Speaker 1: you know, like the period of McCarthyism wasn't that long

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Speaker 1: ago when digging around to find the evidence of communism

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Speaker 1: and people's past and people becoming blacklisted, Yeah, and um,

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Speaker 1: and at risk of sounding like you know, some sort

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Speaker 1: of a radical. It's it's any time a government is

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Speaker 1: given power, any time people hand over power to a government. Uh,

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Speaker 1: generally it's a little naive to expect the government and

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Speaker 1: to hand that power back over when they're done with

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Speaker 1: one particular gold or another, especially if that goal is

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Speaker 1: something say like defeating terrorism or you know, or or

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Speaker 1: winning the war on drugs or something that is it's

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Speaker 1: largely unattainable anyway. Yeah, and so you know, you got

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Speaker 1: that's the things that we need to consider when looking

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Speaker 1: at privacy. UM. And I do like Oscar's idea that

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Speaker 1: it's it's beneficial, you know that there's we are going

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Speaker 1: to obey the better angels of our nature and use

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Speaker 1: it the right ways. Um. I do think there's that possibility.

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Speaker 1: But we have already seen as a as I talked about,

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Speaker 1: that it's been used outside of its contact at least

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Speaker 1: the Patriot Act has. And uh, we will never know

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Speaker 1: the far ranging effects of the Patriot Act until much later.

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Speaker 1: A lot of that is because even the reports have

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Speaker 1: been filed, much of it has been redacted, so you

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Speaker 1: can if you're if you go to look at that report,

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Speaker 1: you might be able to see that the subject was

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Speaker 1: a female or a male, but pretty much everything else

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Speaker 1: is going to be blacked out. So it's hard to

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Speaker 1: say when you have a government that's not being fully

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Speaker 1: transparent itself. And of course they will say, you know,

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Speaker 1: we need to do that for security reasons, and you

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Speaker 1: know there's an angle there that that is relevant. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think what is interesting to me about the

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Speaker 1: Patriot Act and uh, where we as a society sort

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Speaker 1: of came into our technological Uh I don't know, what

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Speaker 1: would you say, like our maturity maybe. Um, these things

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Speaker 1: seem to have dovetailed at the same time. Right, So

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Speaker 1: after None eleven, Uh, you have the Patriot Act, and

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Speaker 1: you also have people using the Internet and unprecedented numbers

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Speaker 1: and sharing information, our personal lives flowing onto it. Um.

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Speaker 1: Like I mean, I remember when I first got on

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Speaker 1: my Space. Um, you young listeners may not remember my Space,

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Speaker 1: but but it existed and I think still does. If

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Speaker 1: you're a band or something, you can still visit it. Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but but I remember it felt like this frontier where

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Speaker 1: it was like it was just a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: young people who wanted to hang out or date each other,

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Speaker 1: you know, So you didn't really think about, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: who all this information you're putting out there, and and

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Speaker 1: then uh, and then later you realize, wow, that was

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Speaker 1: really stupid of me, you know, like the like the

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Speaker 1: we we we just talked in another podcast, The Cyber

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Speaker 1: Immortality about how we're different people. The person I was

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Speaker 1: a year ago as and who I am now. The

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Speaker 1: person a year from now isn't who I am now.

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Speaker 1: Certainly you're my Space person isn't definitely not the same

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Speaker 1: person or now. Yeah, and so it's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like the MySpace you from ten years ago wasn't concerned

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Speaker 1: with how about getting a job somewhere necessarily or or

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Speaker 1: you know, or or or what his or her you know,

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Speaker 1: political opinions or social opinions at the time, we're compared

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Speaker 1: to what they might be at, you know, a decade later.

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Speaker 1: So um so so so it's interesting to see how

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Speaker 1: that's changed. Like I feel like a lot of us

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Speaker 1: are like that, where the Internet, what the Internet is,

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Speaker 1: has has changed in that time, and then who we

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Speaker 1: are has has changed. But to a certain extent, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the data we put out there, they say,

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Speaker 1: it's like putting information in the in on the Internet

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Speaker 1: is like putting p in a swimming pool. There's no

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Speaker 1: not really a good way to get it out again.

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Speaker 1: You can delete anything. This presensation is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Intel sponsors of tomorrow. Well, and what I was

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Speaker 1: thinking too, is because of the Patriot devetailing with our

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Speaker 1: increased involvement with the Internet, is is it on a

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Speaker 1: subconscious level? Of course, we don't have any scientific data

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Speaker 1: to back this up, but so this is just a question.

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Speaker 1: But is it on some levels? Was that sort of

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Speaker 1: when we lost our privacy virginity? You know, like we

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Speaker 1: had a lot of us were very fearful at the time,

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Speaker 1: and um, certainly we know that the government was able

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Speaker 1: to pass the Act because of that. Um there was

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Speaker 1: a juggernaut of emotion. Yeah, following not eleven um and so,

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Speaker 1: and we all know that we act irrationally, and when

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Speaker 1: we're controlled by fear of our brain makes different decisions.

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Speaker 1: So once we sort of handed over the reins that way,

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Speaker 1: at least symbolically, if not everybody was affected by the

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Speaker 1: Patriot Act, did we then sort of say okay, and

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Speaker 1: then we're on this thing called the Internet and we're

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Speaker 1: exchanging all of this information and it's really neat, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's okay for me because I feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm getting something in return. I'm getting this instant gratification. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's so it's like the you know, the

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Speaker 1: the revelation that, oh, the government's off in my business.

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Speaker 1: You know, you get used to that idea and then uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it comes along the phone companies like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we want to know where you are at all times,

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Speaker 1: and You're like, all right, I mean the phone's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: I can play a scrapple on it and and used

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Speaker 1: the map system to figure out where I am in Austin, Texas,

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if we would have made it

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Speaker 1: to the live recording. You. No, we wouldn't have made

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Speaker 1: it to the coffee shop and back had it not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we literally took out your iPhone and we're following the

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Speaker 1: dot as we were. Yeah, so maybe I you know,

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Speaker 1: I take that as the comforting bribe, but I'm giving

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Speaker 1: up something in the process. Well it's interesting to you

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Speaker 1: that that you're talking about the iPhone because there, um

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Speaker 1: there's a German Green Party politician his name is mult

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Speaker 1: Disputes and he went to court to find out what

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Speaker 1: his cell phone company, Deutsche Telecom, knew about his comings

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Speaker 1: and goings, because he was just sort of interested about

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Speaker 1: what sort of information they were amassing. He found out

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Speaker 1: that in a six month period from August thirty one,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine to February eight, two thousand and ten,

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Speaker 1: Deutsch Telecom had recorded and saved his longitude and latitude

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Speaker 1: coordinates more than thirty five thousand times UM. It traced

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Speaker 1: him from a train on the way to turn Langan

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Speaker 1: at the start of the day and then through the

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Speaker 1: following night when he was back home in Berlin. So

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Speaker 1: oftentimes this will happen. They'll they'll take the coordinates just

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Speaker 1: because they're the signal is sort of being rebooted. But

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Speaker 1: when they looked at this case that that wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: It was just randomly sort of tracking his coordinates um,

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Speaker 1: which begs the question, what do they want with all

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Speaker 1: that data? You know? What was Obviously they can say, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe he went here and there, and we can give

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Speaker 1: this to marketing firms and better pinpoint his interests and

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Speaker 1: translates to bigger dollars. That's a possibility, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: still sort of interesting how and all the legalis that

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Speaker 1: we sign off on with our contracts for cell phones

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Speaker 1: or even you know, for downloading application. There there's um

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Speaker 1: what we're sort of giving away that right to our

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Speaker 1: privacy when it comes to that, Yeah, that giant wall

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Speaker 1: of text that comes with any uh system contract or

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Speaker 1: device contracting. I mean who reads that? I think I

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Speaker 1: heard one, like one NPR story about a guy who

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Speaker 1: read or maybe as a woman who read the contract.

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Speaker 1: But it's because if for a living they write those contracts,

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Speaker 1: but the normal people actually you know, leaf through. Does

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Speaker 1: it seems like you reach a fatigue point about one paragraph? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the whole point of legal ease,

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Speaker 1: I think, right, is to to fatigue you to the

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Speaker 1: point you're like, oh fine, I'll just just sign off

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Speaker 1: by paragraph six. It's talking about like the river of

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Speaker 1: the soul and and uh and bounding the spirit to

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Speaker 1: opjects and things like that, right yeah, And you're like,

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Speaker 1: I kept rivers so I just want this application. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean it comes down to that sort of idea

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Speaker 1: of who does own our identity? Then? Um, and particularly

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Speaker 1: is we begin to store more and more data about

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Speaker 1: ourselves cloud computing and otherwise, Uh, you know, how is

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Speaker 1: that going to be played out in twenty years or

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Speaker 1: you know, we forever going to be tethered to a

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Speaker 1: company that owns our online uh projection of ourselves? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I mean typically these companies have to sort of

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Speaker 1: play pr our niceties when when talking about this about

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Speaker 1: who owns the information or they kind of skirt around

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Speaker 1: the issue. But in the end, like take something like Flicker.

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Speaker 1: You know, you put a lot of your life onto

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Speaker 1: a Flicker account. Uh. I mean to the point where

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Speaker 1: like if you if you own a Flicker account and

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Speaker 1: you were to die, like the Flicker account would kind

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Speaker 1: of be an online um memorial too, you know only

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Speaker 1: need you might want that to live on, or you

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Speaker 1: might want that to live on for someone that you

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Speaker 1: you knew, and uh you know who owns that? Who

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Speaker 1: owns your your profile with all your your your thoughts

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Speaker 1: or bails and correspondences. And if you are deceased, do

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Speaker 1: you uh any longer have rights to those photos? Can

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Speaker 1: they be used by someone else? Yeah? Yeah, Um, so

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Speaker 1: sort of brings up some good questions about that. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk a little bit too about when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about my space and and you know who who

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Speaker 1: you were then, who you are now, and these different

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Speaker 1: iterations of yourself that exist. Google CEO Eric Schmidt predicts

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Speaker 1: that every young person one day will be entitled automatically

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Speaker 1: to change his or her name on reaching adulthood in

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Speaker 1: order to disown youthful hijiink stored on their friends and

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Speaker 1: social media sites. Uh so here you go. I mean this,

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Speaker 1: this idea that you know, companies might sprout up to

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Speaker 1: actually whitewash your identity is very possible. It has been

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Speaker 1: talked about in the industry. Yeah, it's kind of kind

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Speaker 1: of like this idea that just like, all right, the

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Speaker 1: thirty year old me needs to get this new job.

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Speaker 1: I need to hire somebody to kill the twenty year

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Speaker 1: old me. We're still out there on the Internet looking

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Speaker 1: like a total goof is well, and think about the

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old today. Think about the sort of information

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Speaker 1: the fifteen year old has, and assume that the fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old is very open with with whatever information going

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Speaker 1: to share, because that's the thing for a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, I was talking about when suddenly the

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Speaker 1: internet was here and like for a for a for

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Speaker 1: a large number obviously, when we remember that time. We

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Speaker 1: didn't grow up with the Internet. It just came into

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Speaker 1: our lives like this mysterious piper with a bunch of

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Speaker 1: rats following him, you know. And uh and we followed him,

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Speaker 1: uh and uh and it's been a weird experience ever since.

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Speaker 1: But other people have have been born and grown up

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Speaker 1: um in the Piper's under the Piper's spell. So so

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Speaker 1: they have a totally different idea of what privacy is

429
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: and what it should be. Yeah, and and that makes

430
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: me think about Sherry Turkle, who has written a lot

431
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 1: about technology and our relationship to it. And she makes

432
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: that point. She says, just because we grew up in

433
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: the Internet does not mean that it is growing up,

434
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: does not mean that it it is fully formed now. Um.

435
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: And it's still the wild West in many ways, in

436
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: terms of legalities, uh and in even sort of the

437
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: way that we interacted psychologically. But again, this fifteen year old,

438
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: I mean five years from now, what might we know

439
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: about her? You know? I mean think about all the

440
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: different ways that we can collect data on or we

441
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 1: google Earth, we can see where she lives. Um, we

442
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: know her Facebook status, UM, Twitter, four Square, her blog, missives,

443
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: we have access to her thoughts you know, possibly uh,

444
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, maybe what she just purchased and where her

445
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: coordinates her I Q her sa T scores her grades

446
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: for does she have a criminal record? I don't know

447
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: her medical record? Which X man she would be according to?

448
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: Right right right? And think about that. I mean that

449
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: is this a lot of layer of detail? Um? And

450
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, would what kind of control would she have

451
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: in five years over that or in like, you know,

452
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: thirty years from now she's running for public office and

453
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: someone's like she was on Team Edward back in the

454
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: Twilight Days. Do you want to vote for somebody who's

455
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: on Team Edward? Right? I know, because that is how

456
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 1: fickle us human beings are, right, we might look at

457
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: that and go, oh god, no, totally not Team Edward. Um.

458
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: So that kind of makes me think about the future

459
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: of data mining, especially for for younger generations who have

460
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 1: been accused of over sharing. Um. And again to go

461
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: back to Google CEO Eric Schmidt Um. This is from

462
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: an article Google and the Search for the Future from

463
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal. He says, I actually think most

464
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: people don't want Google to answer their questions. He elaborates,

465
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: they want Google to tell them what they should be

466
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: doing next, And then he gives a scenario. Let's say

467
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 1: you're walking down the street walking here we are because

468
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: of the info Google has collected about you, we know

469
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: roughly who you are, roughly what you care about, who

470
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: your friends are. Google also knows, too, within a foot

471
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: where you are. And uh. Mr Schmidt then leaves it

472
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: to a listener to imagine the possibilities. If you need

473
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: milk and there's a place nearby to get milk, Google

474
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: will will remind you to get milk. Google knows you

475
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: need milk before you know that you need milk from

476
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: your list right. Um, it will tell you a store

477
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: ahead has a collection of horse racing posters that you like. Uh,

478
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: that the nineteenth century murder that you've been reading about

479
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: took place on the next block. So uh, are these

480
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: the things that really come up for you? Like? No,

481
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you have Jack the Ripper fascinations. No,

482
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: this is just in Mr Schmidt's this this scenario, I

483
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: thought it was from the article. No, no, no, no,

484
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't have any more spacing poster fetish Um. But

485
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: Mr Schmidt says that a generation of powerful handheld devices

486
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: is just around the corner that can fulfill this need,

487
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: and they can be adept at surprising you with information

488
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: that you didn't even know that you wanted. So this

489
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: is the point where maybe you cease to actually think

490
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: about things and are told or suggested about what to do.

491
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: So Google comes in. Basically they say, not only was

492
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: free will an illusion before, we're gonna go ahead and

493
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: completely dispel it and uh and just take over all

494
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: your decision making free will and privacy our illusion. Sorry

495
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: about that, but hey, here's you need some bread, so

496
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: you might as well pick that up with your milk. Yeah, so,

497
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean it does. It's we still can't answer the

498
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: question is is it a fair trade off what we're

499
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: doing right now, the information that we're sharing. Um, but

500
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: it does make me wonder if we're sort of opening

501
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: our digital veins a bit too much and letting an

502
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: information flow. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how privacy

503
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: evolved of their changes, uh in the years ahead. I mean,

504
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: maybe it reaches the point where we just we had

505
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: we end up having to have a different view of it.

506
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: From a very early age, you know, where your mom

507
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: takes you aside and says, all right, this is the

508
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: kind of stuff you blog about or whatever it is

509
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: by that point and this is the kind of stuff

510
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: that is that is completely private. Maybe that becomes this

511
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: just more of an emphasis on the separation. I don't know,

512
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: And I mean we've already absorbed much of this mindset anyway, right,

513
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: so it maybe it's not too big of a deal. Um.

514
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: Maybe we aren't necessarily eroding our civil liberties or our privacy. Um.

515
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: But again, I think the Oscar brings up a really

516
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: good point about that, and especially the point about how

517
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: since we're in the middle of this, we we actually

518
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: need to look at it um and know that it's

519
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: not actually fully formed and think about it. So thank you, Oscar. Yeah. Well, hey,

520
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: I have us an email from another couple of individuals

521
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,479
Speaker 1: whose last names will be with health for privacy reasons.

522
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: First we have one from Mark Anthony and Mark Anthony.

523
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: How is it y'all? Uh? They wrote it wrote out

524
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: y'all alright, like the podcast lots of food for thought.

525
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: Just like to comment on your podcast about audio hallucinations.

526
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: I used to live in Alaska after my parents dragged

527
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: me up there as a child. I would chop wood

528
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: and watch the Aurora borealis in the extremely long winters

529
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: and that super quiet environment. Laying back in the snow,

530
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: I would I would hear music often as I gazed

531
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: up at the sky. I've heard that this is a

532
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: common occurrence among people who have seen the Aurora. Can

533
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: you set some light on this or did I just

534
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: have a bad case of cabin fever? Oh? The music

535
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: was always some symphonic classical stuff, which I enjoy. But

536
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: I listened to metal uh at the time, a lot

537
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: of thrash strange, So that's interesting. Well, I kind of wondered, too,

538
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: is that during a period of twenty four hour daylight

539
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: in Alaska? Because everything I ever learned about Alaska is

540
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: from al Pacino in the movie in which he went

541
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: nuts or someone went nuts? Because there is that? What

542
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: it is I saw me it's a remake of of

543
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: a European film, which is, in my opinion, are superior.

544
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: The original starts stolen scarce guard and has a lot

545
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: more shades of gray in terms of the characters. Don't

546
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: even get me started on the fem Nikita and then

547
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: the astradization of that and in the American version. But yes,

548
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: so I don't know that that's the question I have.

549
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: You know, what were the what were the other circumstances

550
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: surrounding that, But I do think it's very interesting. But well,

551
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: I have seen the Aurora bore alice, if I remember.

552
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: I'm told I've seen the Aurora boor alice as the

553
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: thing because I was a child in Newfoundland and uh

554
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: and I think it was when my mom was in

555
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: the hospital to give birth to my youngest sibling. Um,

556
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: some friends of theirs like took us out and supposedly

557
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: show the siger roar about bore alice. But the only

558
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: thing I remember is reading a dinosaur booklet in which

559
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: one dinosaur like is this rated? Another one? So that

560
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: is that sounds like you probably as a small child.

561
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I totally missed out on this, or totally

562
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: it didn't make an impression on me, which you were

563
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: like dinosaurs evisceration high pretty lights you pale in comparison. Well,

564
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: maybe maybe a listener will out there will will share

565
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: their similar experiences or or just you know, get a

566
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: straight on the whole Aurora borealis and use it thing. Um.

567
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: I have another one here from j J j J says, Hi,

568
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm listening to the Does Your Dog Love You? Podcast?

569
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: I was wondering why it is that we like to

570
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: watch dogs and other animals play so much. For that matter,

571
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: why do human beings will love to have fun or

572
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: other animals? I see my dog playing all the time,

573
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: and she never seems happier. She even seems to be

574
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: using some type of imagination while doing it. Where does

575
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: fun come from? From a strictly evolutionary standpoint, fund should

576
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: serve some kind of function to pass on one's genes.

577
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: In that sense, it's hard to imagine fun being beneficial

578
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: for us because I don't see where it accomplishes this.

579
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: What do you think? Maybe this would be a good podcast?

580
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. Pretty cool. Yeah, well that's

581
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 1: some interesting food for thought. We may have to explore

582
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: that later. I know that. You know, as we discussed

583
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: in that particular podcast, Um, it's fun to watch our

584
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: dogs play because we have that connection with them, and

585
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: it actually releases um oxytocin in the brain's right and

586
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: so we get this feel good mother infant uh drug

587
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: coursing through our brain when we're interacting with this dog

588
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: that we find adorable because it kind of sort of

589
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: looks like an infant. Well, also, I was thinking too

590
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: about little kids and when they play and they have

591
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: you know, fun I guess and air quotes. But um,

592
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people have said that that's

593
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: the way that they're working out their own creativity and

594
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: also working out there's their social roles. So we have

595
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: that whole podcast on creativity. Yeah. I just think about

596
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: that too. So it's it's maybe another way to come

597
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: at problems, we know through play. Yeah, well, it intantly

598
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: comes to mind little boys playing um you know, sword

599
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: fights and whatever on the playground. They're they're kind of

600
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: learning to fight in the same way that a kitten

601
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: wrestles with things, because it's kind of learning to kill

602
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: small animals. Yeah. Yeah, I actually remember getting that. I

603
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: mean my brother and I were no, no, no, no no, no,

604
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: no play play fight. It's like an episode of Dexter childhood.

605
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Um well cool, cool, that's that's some some awesome food

606
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: for out there. And if you haven't listened to that

607
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: episode and or a dog owner to check it out

608
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 1: and give us your feedback. And if you have some

609
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: feedback on this particular episode, um, and and and and

610
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: oh by the way, if you happen to be um

611
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: Georgian or Australian I don't mean any offense about the

612
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: whole sex criminal boat thing, but yeah, no, he's a

613
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: segment with the way back, way way back, and we

614
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: all have a touch of that note. I'll like debtors,

615
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: colonies and so on and sap. But yeah, if you

616
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: have any any cool feedback on the whole privacy thing,

617
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: let us know. I'd love to I'd love to hear

618
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: even just some amusing anecdotes about how your previous online

619
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: self has interfered or in some way affected your current

620
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: online self. Um. You can find us on Twitter and

621
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: Facebook is blow the Mind, and you can also drop

622
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: us a note at blew the Mind, at how stuff

623
00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: worst dot com and more on this and thousands of

624
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com. To learn

625
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in

626
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: the upper right corner of our homepage. The how Stuff

627
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: Works iPhone app has a ride. Download it today on

628
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: iTunes