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Speaker 1: Welcome to today's edition of the Clay Travis and Buck

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Speaker 1: Sexton Show podcast. Welcome everybody. It is the Tuesday edition

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Speaker 1: of Clay and Buck, and the fourth indictment came down.

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Speaker 1: Let's just jump into it right away. Clay is in

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Speaker 1: transit to one of his book tour stops today. He

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Speaker 1: will join us for a segment here in just a

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Speaker 1: little bit the bottom of this hour to weigh in

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Speaker 1: on this indictment. We've also got Andy McCarthy in the

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Speaker 1: mix on just what we can take so far from

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Speaker 1: the massive and I might say massive, I just mean

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Speaker 1: in terms of how long it is, how many counts

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Speaker 1: there are. It is, the count of countless counts. It

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Speaker 1: just keeps going on and on and on. You have

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Speaker 1: a large number of individuals in the indictment, most notably

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, but also and I had a feeling this

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Speaker 1: was the case, and we did our show yesterday before

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Speaker 1: this indict it was formally formally published. Remember it was

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Speaker 1: pre published apparently before the grand jury given vote on

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Speaker 1: That's kind of a weird thing, isn't it. Usually you

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Speaker 1: wait until afterwards, right, But it's almost like the whole

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Speaker 1: grand jury thing was just a formality anyway, and they

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Speaker 1: knew that based on what the system was expected to do,

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Speaker 1: that it would act in this way or that would

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Speaker 1: operate in this way. So we sure enough the charges

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Speaker 1: that came down that were initially published turned out to

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Speaker 1: be the charges that have now been put forward against

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. The allegations are now official in this indictment.

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Speaker 1: And I said there'd be other people that had touched

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Speaker 1: as well, or it's going after as well. Rudy Giuliani,

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Speaker 1: Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Jeff Clark, Mike Roman. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of people who have been indicted in this.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of folks who are caught up in this.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump and eighteen other individuals came down late last night.

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Speaker 1: The top count, and we're gonna today. We're gonna spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time on this. There's some other stories

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Speaker 1: I want to get to as well, but there's a

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Speaker 1: lot that's here. The top count is racketeering or a

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Speaker 1: rico charge, so that I also thought was going to

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Speaker 1: be a part of this, and that is the umbrella charge,

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Speaker 1: if you will. That's to get at this as a

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Speaker 1: multifacited conspiracy. There are so many steps that the prosecution. Here,

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Speaker 1: Fanny Willis lays out that it's ninety eight pages. The

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Speaker 1: indictment is ninety eight pages long. I read it this morning,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to get into all of it's

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Speaker 1: a lot of it's a lot of forgery charges. Trying

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Speaker 1: to hear. I'll give you a I'll give you a few.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. False statements and writings. They repeat that

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Speaker 1: man many times. Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer,

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Speaker 1: false statements and writings impersonating a public officer. Conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: commit in person to public officer. Oh boy, a lot

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Speaker 1: of that. Conspiracy to commit forgery. So every charge also

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Speaker 1: has more or less a conspiracy charge attached to it

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Speaker 1: as well. So if there was a forgery that they

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Speaker 1: claim was committed, it's also conspiracy to commit the forgery.

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Speaker 1: False statements and writings, false statements and writings, YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It just goes on

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Speaker 1: and on and on. Violation of the Georgia Rico Racketeer,

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Speaker 1: Influence and Corrupt Organization Act is the top count. Here

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Speaker 1: is the Trump indictment. The person pushing this, Fanny Willis here.

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Speaker 1: She is announcing it. I want you to hear this,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to break more of this down. I

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Speaker 1: have I think a pretty important not just argument, but

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Speaker 1: point of necessary context for all this we're about to

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Speaker 1: dive into. But you should hear. Here's the prosecutor, as

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Speaker 1: we said in Atlanta, Indictment number four, play number one.

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Speaker 2: Every individual charge in the indictment is charged with one

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Speaker 2: count of violating Georgia's Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act

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Speaker 2: through participation in a criminal enterprise in Fulton County, Georgia

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Speaker 2: and elsewhere to accomplish the illegal.

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Speaker 1: Goal of allowing Donald J.

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Speaker 2: Trump to seize the presidential term of office beginning on

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Speaker 2: January twentieth twenty one. Specifically, the participants in association took

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Speaker 2: various actions in Georgia and elsewhere to block the county

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Speaker 2: of the votes of the presidential electors who were certified

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Speaker 2: as the winners of Georgia's twenty twenty general election.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, first off, the fourth indictment here, just

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Speaker 1: the fact that it's the fourth one tells you a

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Speaker 1: lot about what's going on. You've heard many people saying,

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Speaker 1: including Clay and me, about the weaponization of the DOJ

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Speaker 1: for politics. That is now clear. We now live in

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Speaker 1: a country where if you run for higher office and

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Speaker 1: the Democrats decide that you're too much of a threat,

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Speaker 1: they will use the criminal justice system. They will abuse

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice system to take you off the chess board.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to have to beat you at the

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Speaker 1: ballot box. They would prefer as we see the usage

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Speaker 1: of the law as a weapon of politics, this is

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Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous things for a country that

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Speaker 1: has elections. This is one of the things that can

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Speaker 1: most rapidly create a dissent into full blown tyranny. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I know that sounds like a lot. I know, but

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Speaker 1: look at all the totalitarian impulses of the Democrats as

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Speaker 1: a matter of policy and certainly as a matter of

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Speaker 1: criminal justice. They have no compunction about this. There's no

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Speaker 1: part of them that feels like maybe we're doing something

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Speaker 1: here that has really long term and disastrous ramifications for

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Speaker 1: the country. You know, are there arguments that Trump's team

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Speaker 1: made that I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but I

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Speaker 1: certainly would have never made.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, is it illegal? Is it criminal? No? No, They're

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Speaker 1: criminalizing legal procedure and legal advice as much as they

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Speaker 1: may think it's a bizarre legal theory. And more to

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Speaker 1: the point, this should be treated as a political question.

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Speaker 1: Do the American people, given all all the facts, given

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Speaker 1: all that we know, and that includes Russia collusion, and

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Speaker 1: that includes all the underhanded efforts to undo the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen election That always gets left out of these conversations

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Speaker 1: with Democrats about January sixth, about Russia collusion, the Special Council.

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Speaker 1: Two impeachments. The first one we know is an utter farce.

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Speaker 1: The first one was actually just a straight up lie.

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Speaker 1: Had to do with the It was a perfectly fine

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Speaker 1: phone call. Hunter was selling influence to his dad. He

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Speaker 1: was doing it in Ukraine's Zelenski was talking to Trump.

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Speaker 1: Trump is the chief executive of the United States government.

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Speaker 1: Guess what, Hunter Biden wasn't supposed to have global immunity,

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Speaker 1: but he got it. His daddy became president. And this

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Speaker 1: is what I think, really it all comes down to.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we're gonna have to talk about the jeopardy

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Speaker 1: involved here. Anyone who tells you, because they they're telling

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Speaker 1: people right now a lot of what they want to hear.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who tells you this isn't going to be all

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Speaker 1: four of the indictments enormously challenging for Trump in the

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Speaker 1: election year, And that this isn't election interference, and that

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Speaker 1: this is intended to do anything other than, at a minimum,

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Speaker 1: make it impossible for Trump to run the campaign that

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Speaker 1: he would otherwise run is just delusional at this point, right.

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Speaker 1: There's another layer to this, though, and we have to

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Speaker 1: look at this honestly. And you know, I'm gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you I had some people even after when I said

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Speaker 1: the first indictment was coming and then the second indictment

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Speaker 1: said why are you talking about this? They were upset.

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Speaker 1: Why are you talking? Because this is what the enemy's doing.

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Speaker 1: You know, what can you say about this other than

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Speaker 1: this is the reality of what is coming against us.

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Speaker 1: If I'm saying, hey, guys, the enemies lineup artillery pieces,

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Speaker 1: we better get down in the fox hole now because

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Speaker 1: we got incoming. What is the person who runs alongside

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Speaker 1: me and says, don't get into trench. You don't even

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Speaker 1: know if the artillery is coming, whor are you none

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Speaker 1: of that? We have to live in reality here. This

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Speaker 1: is a multi pronged effort to subvert the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four election to destroy Donald Trump, to destroy the MAGA movement.

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Speaker 1: And even if you despise Trump, and there are Republicans

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Speaker 1: who do, you have to see the standard and the

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Speaker 1: president and the reality of what is going on here,

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Speaker 1: even if you're a desantist person of a vague person,

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Speaker 1: and Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Mike Pence, everybody on the

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Speaker 1: right who is technically running for president, and there are

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Speaker 1: people that are supporting all of those candidates, and in

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Speaker 1: some cas there's a lot of people supporting them. I

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Speaker 1: would think they could recognize that this legal effort against

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Speaker 1: Trump is an abuse, that this is also showing us

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Speaker 1: there's a fundamental difference between the way the Democrat Party

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Speaker 1: approaches power and Republicans. Republicans on our side, we have

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Speaker 1: the people who were saying, first of all, don't talk

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Speaker 1: about the mean things they're gonna do. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to hear about it. Okay, we're an indictment number four.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad everyone. You know how many times wilt

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Speaker 1: it say, oh, it turns out there wasn't gonna be

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Speaker 1: an indictment. No, every time Clay and I have sat

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Speaker 1: here and said to you, guys, I think this indictment's

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Speaker 1: coming any day. Now, let's get ready for it. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about it, let's analyze it. It has been the case. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll have Clay with us in a few minutes. He's

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Speaker 1: three for three in the last few indictments with being

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Speaker 1: out for the day. We'll talk about that. It's just

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Speaker 1: what are the odds, what are the chances of that?

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Speaker 1: But he'll be with us to weigh in on this

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Speaker 1: from from a legal perspective. Shortly, but with all of

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Speaker 1: what we see going on, this is now actually about

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Speaker 1: more than Trump, no matter what somebody thinks about Trump,

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Speaker 1: because it's clearly election interference. It's clearly the magnification of charges.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just look at New York City. It's the exaggeration.

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Speaker 1: It is the politicization of our Justice department to destroy

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Speaker 1: somebody they don't like. Who is the individually or who's

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Speaker 1: going to be able to stand around and say, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm the victim of a crime perpetrated by Donald Trump. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's all conspiracy. The only victim they claim really is

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Speaker 1: the United States government or the state of New York

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Speaker 1: or the state of Georgia. There's something going on here,

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Speaker 1: and I think you need to hear this, because I

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Speaker 1: never lose sight of this. I was as brass knuckled

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Speaker 1: in my defense of Trump during Russia collusion as anybody

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Speaker 1: could be out there, to the point where Trump talked

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Speaker 1: to me about it was grateful for the points I

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Speaker 1: was making as somebody who had an understanding way beyond

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Speaker 1: what basically you know, I don't know ninety nine percent

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Speaker 1: of the commentators, even on the right, understood when it

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Speaker 1: came to intelligence work, espionage, the FISA courts, all of that.

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Speaker 1: He appreciated the defense, but the defense was more than warranted.

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Speaker 1: It was necessary for Trump, it was necessary for that administration,

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Speaker 1: and it was what was right for the country at

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Speaker 1: the time. What is right for the country in this

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Speaker 1: moment when Hillary Clinton can go on MSNBC and be

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Speaker 1: gleeful and giddy about the destruction of a Republican presidential

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Speaker 1: candidate and former president because her team doesn't like him,

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Speaker 1: what does it say about where we are? Play clip three,

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Speaker 1: Madam Secretary, fancy meeting you.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I can't believe this. Yeah, this is.

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Speaker 5: Not the circumstances in which I expected to be talking to.

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Speaker 1: You, nor me.

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Speaker 3: Rachel.

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Speaker 5: It's always good to talk to you, but honestly, I

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Speaker 5: didn't think that it would be under these circumstances, yet

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Speaker 5: another set of indictments.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you this question. What is the answer

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Speaker 1: when you come across somebody, and I'm sure you do,

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Speaker 1: whether it's in your day to day life or you

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Speaker 1: just see their commentary on TV, you stumble in the morning,

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Speaker 1: you know you're looking for Fox and Friends, and you

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Speaker 1: find yourself on Morning Joe for a second, what is

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Speaker 1: their answer to this question? How do they expect people

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Speaker 1: who have voted. I voted for Donald Trump twice. I

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Speaker 1: will vote for Donald Trump again if he is the

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Speaker 1: Republican nominee, and I think he is likely to be,

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Speaker 1: although I don't know, I don't know nobody and he

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Speaker 1: just says they know is wrong. No one can predict

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Speaker 1: the future, as I tell you all the time, and

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Speaker 1: that's obviously true. What is their response to this. We

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Speaker 1: are supposed to sit here while in his seventy seventh

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Speaker 1: year of life, a former president is hit with four

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Speaker 1: criminal indictments. We're supposed to sit here and forget about

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Speaker 1: the abusifiza, the weaponization of the intelligence and law enforcement

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Speaker 1: community to try to destroy him while he was president

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Speaker 1: and we are to forget that Hillary Clinton clearly violated

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Speaker 1: the Espionage Act. This is beyond dispute. She did it

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Speaker 1: many times. She did it willfully, she knew, she didn't care.

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Speaker 1: She thought she was above the law. Kind of like

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Speaker 1: Hunter were finding out, is above the law? What do

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Speaker 1: they say to you when you point out, why is

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Speaker 1: it that only our side ever has to pay consequences?

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Speaker 1: Put aside whether or not that's why? Is whether that

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Speaker 1: what Trump did? You think he did do? Didn't do?

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Speaker 1: Democrats get away with it. Democrats get away with it.

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Speaker 1: Hunter Biden, I think is going to get away with

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, and Joe Biden too, and Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: and Bill Clinton they got away with and they got

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Speaker 1: away with a lot. That's a whole other conversation. They've

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Speaker 1: gotten away with it. And we know they broke the law.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Bill Clinton lied under oath. Put that aside

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Speaker 1: for a second. Alough, that's certainly worth talking about. Hillary

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Speaker 1: Clinton violated the Espionage Act. We know that she also

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Speaker 1: destroyed evidence. We know that when was the last time

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Speaker 1: a high level demo got hit with a process crime

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Speaker 1: and investigation?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: In fact, during the investigation of Hillary's server, remember that

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Speaker 1: they basically deputized Hillary's lawyers to get to play on

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Speaker 1: both sides. They're her lawyers, they're subject the investigation, but

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Speaker 1: they're her lawyers, so they can't actually be pressed in

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Speaker 1: the investigation. It was preposterous. So we're supposed to sit

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Speaker 1: here and say, you, your team keeps getting a pass,

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Speaker 1: but Donald Trump has to pay the price until they

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Speaker 1: have an answer for me on that. I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to in all the chirping about all look, the

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, the future of our democracy, it's nonsense

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Speaker 1: to me. What's really at stake here? Do we live

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Speaker 1: in a country where there is some justice, where there

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Speaker 1: is some fairness or not? That's what's on trial here,

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Speaker 1: as much as Donald Trump or anything else. Why does

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Speaker 1: only one side pay the price? We know they've broken

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Speaker 1: the law, don't even get to hear about it. Look,

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Speaker 1: while we talk about the most obvious apparent crimes, like

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Speaker 1: the Hillary Clinton stuff going on in our country, we

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Speaker 1: often forget to talk about what's going on silently behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. Online identity theft is as prevalent as it

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Speaker 1: has ever been, and it's getting worse and worse out there.

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Speaker 1: Because they're really clever, they'll send you this happens to me.

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Speaker 1: They'll send you a text message and it'll say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is your bank, and they'll actually have the name

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Speaker 1: of they did this to me. It was my actual bank.

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Speaker 1: They have the right bank, They knew what kind of

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Speaker 1: account it was. They just wanted a little more info

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Speaker 1: so they could clean out my bank account. That stuff

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Speaker 1: can happen. They can also just get enough of your info,

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Speaker 1: your DOB, your basic information, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: guess what, they take out loans in your name. Right,

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Speaker 1: This stuff happens all the time, and it's happening to

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Speaker 1: people day in and day out. It's important to understand

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Speaker 1: how cybercrime and identity theft affect our lives. When you

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Speaker 1: have LifeLock, you have protection. You need LifeLock to have

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Speaker 1: your back online because of exactly what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: And if you do become a victim of identity theft,

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Speaker 1: a dedicated US based LifeLock restoration specialist will work to

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Speaker 6: The Torch of Truth passed and still lit every day

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Speaker 6: the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to hear from our maid man Clay. He

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Speaker 1: is currently in transit for his book tour, but he

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Speaker 1: has to weigh in. Clay just before we get into

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Speaker 1: the latest here. I believe this is now the third

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Speaker 1: time you have tried to have a day off and

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Speaker 1: there has been a Trump indictment. You're three for three.

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Speaker 6: What are the odds? I mean, it's pretty unbelievable when

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Speaker 6: you really break that down. I mean, I haven't even

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Speaker 6: gone away that much for the summer, but every time

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Speaker 6: I've ducked, and this one is not even really vacation.

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Speaker 6: It's just they couldn't figure out how to give me

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Speaker 6: from Salt Lake City to Houston without somehow infringing on

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Speaker 6: the show. So I'm at the Salt Lake City Airport,

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Speaker 6: got the signing tonight in Katie, Texas, and late last

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Speaker 6: night when I got back from the signing in Salt Lake.

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Speaker 6: I appreciate everybody being there. I met so many of

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Speaker 6: our listeners, they were fabulous. Everything falls apart again, and

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Speaker 6: I just this one in particular feels so dirty and

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Speaker 6: so calculated, even on a level that the others didn't

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Speaker 6: fuck and unlike the others where you can say, Okay, well,

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Speaker 6: this can be cured by winning the presidency by a pardon.

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Speaker 6: This is far more significant in nature than the New

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Speaker 6: York City state charges. And this one, I think is

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Speaker 6: going to linger for some time. It's just an unbelievable outrage.

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Speaker 6: But it's me is the worst of the four so

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Speaker 6: far in terms of just what the long range impact

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Speaker 6: is going to be.

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Speaker 1: So do you think I mean, our buddy Andy McCarthy,

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Speaker 1: who's going to be joining us later on today Clay

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Speaker 1: on the show, he's been pretty clear. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: thinks that because of both the specifics of Georgia law

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Speaker 1: state law when it comes to elections, and also the

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Speaker 1: reality that there's no way for there to be a

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Speaker 1: federal presidential pardon or a backing off of the DOJ

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Speaker 1: under say a Trump or other Republican administration, that this

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Speaker 1: is a uniquely serious problem. Putting aside the unfairness of

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Speaker 1: it and the politicization of it as a threat he

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Speaker 1: seems to think this is a pretty high one of

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Speaker 1: the four indictments. How do you come down on that?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so, because again, the federal charges. We've

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Speaker 6: talked about this, I think you can break him down.

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Speaker 6: Miami is relatively serious on the process based crime South

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Speaker 6: Florida that is, but it's federal charges, and I think

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Speaker 6: the jury and the judge actually are very beneficial to Trump.

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Speaker 6: The charges in jan six in Washington, d C. To me,

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Speaker 6: as I've laid out, are legally garbage, and again I

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Speaker 6: think they'll get tossed out by the Supreme Court eventually.

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Speaker 6: We've discussed New York City. I mean it's a bookkeeping charge.

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Speaker 6: It's a garbage charge in the first place. This one

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Speaker 6: is going to be more challenging because there is no

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Speaker 6: direct pardon mechanism. The Atlanta jury is going to be

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Speaker 6: very biased against Trump, and it's in a toss up state,

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Speaker 6: which to me is so significant. As we were talking

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Speaker 6: about yesterday and Buck, let's not mistake what happened here.

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Speaker 6: They listed all of these charges on the Atlanta website

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Speaker 6: Fulton County before there had been any indictment from the

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Speaker 6: grand jury at all. They lied and said it was

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Speaker 6: a fictitious rumor. We talked about this yesterday as soon

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Speaker 6: as Reuters broke this news story, and then the numbers

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Speaker 6: and the charges are the exact same, uh, which is

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Speaker 6: just unprecedented in terms of the rig nature. They were

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Speaker 6: cued up because they knew that, no matter what they

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Speaker 6: were seeking, this grand jury was going to indict him.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the Trump team's move is going

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Speaker 1: to be in response to this, Like, how do you

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Speaker 1: see this one clay playing out based on the I mean,

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Speaker 1: I read the ninety eight pages this morning, and you

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Speaker 1: know this is kitchen sink included for the indictment. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're just throwing every you know, every fallse statement, every signature,

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Speaker 1: every everything. Right, They're just trying to throw the count

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Speaker 1: of countless counts at Trump and also the people some

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Speaker 1: of the people around him. Right that you had Mark Meadows,

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Speaker 1: and you have Ruy Giuliani, you have Jenna Ellis, you

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Speaker 1: have other lawyers, other individuals who got caught up in this.

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Speaker 1: How do you think the narrative is framed by the

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Speaker 1: defense and the steps take them by the defense to

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Speaker 1: fight back.

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Speaker 6: Well, I think they'll challenge the grand jury preceding itself

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Speaker 6: based on part of the leak that surrounded this the

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Speaker 6: fact that it came out before the grand jury it

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Speaker 6: actually indicted. I think it's a two front war in

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Speaker 6: many ways, like many of these are, where you have

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Speaker 6: to both battle the legal and the political ramifications of

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Speaker 6: this case simultaneously. You can't just fight one or the other,

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Speaker 6: and so that becomes a challenge because sometimes some of

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Speaker 6: the arguments that you want to make politically may infringe

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Speaker 6: on the territory of your legal argument. I think still

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Speaker 6: the biggest thing for Trump is going to be they're

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Speaker 6: trying to get this case. I saw last night watching

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Speaker 6: the press conference with Stanny Willis Buck They're trying to

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Speaker 6: get this done in six months, which would slot it

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Speaker 6: somewhere in right after Jack Smith requested for the jan

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Speaker 6: sixth hearings. Again, I think that's very ambitious. But if

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Speaker 6: I'm the Trump team, I want to push this all

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Speaker 6: the way till after the and then I want to

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Speaker 6: turn if I win, this legal matter into a political

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Speaker 6: one almost entirely. If you are Trump and argue, I

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Speaker 6: think to the Supreme Court, what are you going to

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Speaker 6: try to do here? You can't put the sitting president

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Speaker 6: of the United States in prison for state law violations.

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Speaker 6: So again, I think Trump is going to be running

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Speaker 6: for president. I think this accelerates it and it increases

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Speaker 6: these odds even more so to avoid having to be

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Speaker 6: put potentially in prison based on a conviction in a

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Speaker 6: left wing jurisdiction, we're.

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Speaker 1: Looking clay at let me see here, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows,

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Speaker 1: John Eastman, Jeff Clark, Mike Roman, David Schaeffer, twelve other

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Speaker 1: people I think that are all indicted. You know, I

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Speaker 1: know that we focus so much on Trump because of

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Speaker 1: while it's Trump and he's running to be president, he

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Speaker 1: has in president. Is rudigu Yannie possibly going to go

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Speaker 1: to prison over this? I mean, Dean, what do you

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Speaker 1: think about the realities of the risks here facing some

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Speaker 1: of the other people that are very much a part

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Speaker 1: of this Rico indictment.

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Speaker 6: Well, first of all, if Anny Willis said she wants

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Speaker 6: to try all nineteen defendants together, which is kind of

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Speaker 6: unheard of, I mean again, I would imagine there are

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Speaker 6: I know there are a lot of defense attorneys and

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Speaker 6: prosecutors in their history out there listening to us right now.

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Speaker 6: I can't recall a case of this magnitude, and also

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Speaker 6: I think it brings home buck the scope of what

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Speaker 6: she's trying to do here. She is trying to not

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Speaker 6: only put Trump in prison, She's trying to put an

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Speaker 6: entire cadre of legal advisors surrounding Trump in prison for

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Speaker 6: the rest of their life as well. This is an

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Speaker 6: assault upon the Republican Party the likes of which we've

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Speaker 6: never seen before, and upon attorneys who are providing legal representation. Now,

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Speaker 6: I think what she will try to do Buck is

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Speaker 6: turned some many of those that are advising Trump that

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Speaker 6: they have charged in this case to testify against him

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Speaker 6: and argue that he was ultimately the grand puba of

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Speaker 6: what she believes was a conspiracy to violate federal and

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Speaker 6: state election law. And obviously she's focused on the state components.

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Speaker 6: But again I just look at this and say Trump

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Speaker 6: basically the question that everybody has is in the event

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Speaker 6: that Trump is the nominee, and certainly I saw the

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Speaker 6: pollinge this morning, he's a big favorite, forty point lead

432
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 6: I think right now in New Hampshire, the likes of

433
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 6: which we haven't seen before. If this indictment is like

434
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 6: any others, that will have a rallying effect, Trump will

435
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 6: open up an even bigger lead and in the next

436
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 6: five months is that going to disappear? I find that

437
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 6: hard to believe. So basically Trump is and I can't

438
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 6: believe this is real. But Trump is going to be,

439
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 6: in my opinion, running for president to try to keep

440
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 6: himself from going to prison, potentially for the rest of

441
00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 6: his life.

442
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: What do you make of this one? Clay? Trump put

443
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: out on truth Social a large, complex, detailed but irrefutable

444
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: report on the presidential election fraud which took place in Georgia.

445
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: Is almost complete and will be presented by me at

446
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: a major news conference at eleven am of next week

447
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: in Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on the results of this

448
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: conclusive report, all charges should be dropped against me and others.

449
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: There will be a complete exoneration. They never went after

450
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: those that rigged the election. They only went after those

451
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: that fought to find those who rigged the election. Clay,

452
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: what do you make of that?

453
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 3: Well?

454
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 6: I mean, one, I'll wait and see what his defense is.

455
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 6: But two, do you Saint Jack Smith and Fanny Willis

456
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 6: and Alvin Bragg and and those three prosecutors that have

457
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 6: brought charges so far care at all? What Donald Trump's

458
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 6: defenses are going to be not even a.

459
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: Little not even a little bit. I'm just I'm trying

460
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: to I'm trying to figure out what that Trump play

461
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: is with this.

462
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 6: Well, I think it's a political play, and he may

463
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 6: have a legal argument that he's going to use in

464
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 6: court as well. I'm not begrudging that, but the impact

465
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 6: on the people that are trying to put him in

466
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 6: prison for the rest of his life is going to

467
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,239
Speaker 6: be zero. You know, even if Trump came out and

468
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 6: presented stone cold evidence of cheating and rigging that the

469
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 6: media wouldn't cover it. So I understand again, this goes

470
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 6: to the two front or that Trump is now fighting

471
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 6: both legal and political, and it sounds like what he's

472
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 6: going to present is going to be both of those.

473
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 6: But I can already probably write what the front page

474
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 6: of the New York Times and the Washington Post is

475
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 6: going to read the morning after Trump presents his defense,

476
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 6: and it's going to be ridiculing the idea that Trump

477
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 6: has any defense at all.

478
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: Do you think the judge may We've already seen the

479
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: early stages here of protective orders in DC on that

480
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: federal case relating to election twenty twenty and January sixth.

481
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: Do you think Trump may run a foul of the

482
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: Georgia judge in this case by talking about the case

483
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: in this way?

484
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

485
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 6: I mean, look, this is what I've said from the

486
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 6: get go. Is the biggest peril in the short term

487
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 6: to Trump. I mean, we just saw Sam Bankman freed

488
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 6: have his bail revoked based on his behavior while he

489
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 6: was out of court, and much of that behavior was

490
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 6: actually trying to defend himself. They are trying to set

491
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 6: traps for Trump, and they're going to set traps by

492
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 6: trying to get Trump in contempt of court rulings as

493
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 6: to what he can and cannot say. All of these

494
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 6: judges want to be able, I believe to basically you

495
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 6: put the Trump pelt up on their wall, and outside

496
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 6: of Eileen Cannon in South Florida, I haven't seen any

497
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 6: suggestion that there's any remote fairness coming from the bench

498
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 6: toward Donald Trump at all. And that's why I said yesterday,

499
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 6: Bock to me, this is a state of Georgia. Interesting

500
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 6: question to me. He should have the opportunity to remove

501
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 6: this case to federal law, federal court under Georgia law.

502
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 6: I would try to pass a law that would say

503
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 6: that that's allowed. Also move it anywhere outside of Fulton County,

504
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 6: if you move this to any other county in Georgia,

505
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 6: I really do believe this. I think the odds of

506
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 6: Trump being convicted on these charges are virtually zero. But

507
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 6: of course they're bringing it in the one county where

508
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 6: they have a favorable jury pool and a favorable disposition

509
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 6: towards the idea that Trump is a criminal. And that's why,

510
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 6: ultimately I come back to the president. That's being set

511
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 6: here is blue city and blue state jurisdictions have the

512
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 6: ability and have now shown the willingness to try to

513
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 6: put Republican politicians in prison for the rest of their life.

514
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 6: There's no comparable action that's been undertaken at all by

515
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 6: red states or red servistictions. In Democrats like a Hunter Biden,

516
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 6: they don't fear the consequences of their actions in any way.

517
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 6: And Democrats are going to war with Republicans and Republicans

518
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 6: are turning the other cheek. I don't think that's a

519
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 6: good combo play.

520
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: First of all, we need you back tomorrow, so make

521
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: sure your flight lands where it needs to land, and

522
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: all that. Where are you going tonight for your book

523
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: signing for American Playbook, and are you going to see

524
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: our friends Jesse Kelly and Michael Berry to keep them

525
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: out of trouble potentially.

526
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 6: I was already on Michael Berry's show this morning. I

527
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 6: did Jesse's show last week. I land this afternoon almost

528
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 6: immediately go straight to Katie, Texas Books a million there.

529
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 6: I'll be signing tomorrow. I'll be in Brandon, Florida, which

530
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 6: is outside of Tampa, doing an event there, and then Thursday,

531
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 6: I'm going to be in Nashville back home, so I'll

532
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 6: be back full go tomorrow from our Tampa affiliate. It

533
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 6: look forward to that. Hold down the Ford until then,

534
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 6: and I'm legitimately hopping a flight right now, So look

535
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 6: forward to seeing people tonight in Katie, Texas.

536
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: Look at how the man is going around to see

537
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: all of our people. Buy your copy of American play

538
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: Play's book, which is out now, Clay. We'll talk to

539
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: you more tomorrow.

540
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 6: Appreciate it, my man.

541
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: I'll see you. Mark.

542
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: Born from the tragedy of nine to eleven, the tune

543
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: of the Towers Foundation has been delivering on its promise

544
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: to do good and never forget the sacrifices of America's

545
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: greatest heroes, Heroes who put their lives on the line

546
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: to protect our country and our communities. Heroes like Bristol,

547
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: Connecticut police Sergeant Dustin Demanti. After responding to a domestic

548
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: violence incident, he sustained fatal gunshot wounds. He left behind

549
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: his expectant wife and two children. Thanks to the generosity

550
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: of people like you, Tunnel to Towers paid the mortgage

551
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: on the Demante family home, lifting a financial burden. As

552
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: his loved ones mourned the decorated officers lost. They welcome

553
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: to miracle the child he would never get to meet.

554
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: So many families need your help. Please help America's heroes

555
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: and their young families. Join Tunnel the Towers on its

556
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: mission to do good in their honor. Ninety five cents

557
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: out of every dollar you donate goes to their programs.

558
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: Join us in donating eleven dollars a month the Tunnel

559
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: to Towers at T two t dot org. That's t

560
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: the number two t dot org. Heard it on the show.

561
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 6: You'll hear more on the podcast Clay and Buck podcast,

562
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 6: Deep Dives, More contents, more common sense.

563
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Find the guys on the iHeart app.

564
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 6: Or wherever you get your podcasts.

565
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: Andy McCarthy is with US of National Review and Fox

566
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: News twenty plus years. Federal prosecutor, Southern District of New York, Andy, Andy,

567
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't talked to you about two days.

568
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: So what do you see here?

569
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: Man?

570
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean, so this one comes down just first, you know,

571
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: the indictment was posted before it was done. What do

572
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: you make of that? Is there any issue there that

573
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: creates for this process? And then just the ninety eight pages,

574
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: I mean, what sticks out to you? What are your

575
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: biggest takeaways right now?

576
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think much of the misfiling or the

577
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: misspublication by the clerk's office.

578
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: I think neither we could.

579
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should probably deduce that that's part of why

580
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: they stayed so late. They didn't want that to be

581
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 3: a continuing story. They wanted to just sort of get

582
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 3: on with it. But I don't think it'll amount to

583
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: anything as far as the case is concerned. I just

584
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: think that, you know, I had an open mind about

585
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: this because in our system, it's really up to the

586
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: to the states to police elections and carry out elections.

587
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: So I thought that she would have a better array

588
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 3: of statutes than Jack Smith did in trying to like

589
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: sort of force a federal election interference case on using

590
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: statutes that really aren't designed to police elections. And there

591
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: is you know, I think there is some of that

592
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: in her indictment, but I think by and large she

593
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: makes a big mistake going the RICO route. I don't

594
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: really I know, she says that she's had experience in

595
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: that regard. I don't grasp here orren't get here reading

596
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: this that she has a great grasp on what RICO

597
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: is and why you use it. But it just seems

598
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: to me that the big hole in her case, and

599
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 3: I'm talking specifically about count one, the seventy one page

600
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty something acts of overt acts of conspiracy,

601
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 3: which is the framework she wants people to understand her

602
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 3: case in. I think the problem that she has is

603
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: any good prosecutor would want just a plain old conspiracy,

604
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: like straight line conspiracy is just two or more people

605
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 3: agree to do something that is a crime under federal

606
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 3: under the penal law of the jurisdiction. And the problem

607
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: is the objective here of this kind of rambling group

608
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: that she's put together as if it were one entity.

609
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: The objective was to retain Trump in office, which in

610
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: and of itself is not a crime, and that's not

611
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: a problem. She can make go away by trying to

612
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: turn the thing into a rico as opposed to know,

613
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 3: some other kind of a conspiracy.

614
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: So how much jeopardy do you think Trump is in?

615
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: You know, what you've given us, I think is your

616
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: assessment of the legal realities of this as it pertains

617
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: to what should be the case. But she's brought this.

618
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people, think eighteen other people, including

619
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: eighteen other people other than Trump. Do you think Trump

620
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: should be his should his team be concerned? I mean,

621
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: it feels like he can't get pardoned on this one.

622
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: At least he can't pardon himself. It's not federal. You know,

623
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: you wrote the piece right in the New York Post

624
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: that this one, this one is concerning in terms of

625
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: the threat to the legal threat to Trump or No.

626
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did, and what I said the headline on

627
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 3: that column didn't quite match up with what I argued.

628
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 3: What I said was it's not so much the most

629
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 3: perilous threat to Trump as it is the most enduring

630
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: threats to Trump. And I don't mean to be legalistic.

631
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: In that distinction.

632
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: It's not so much the strength of the case. It's

633
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: the thing you just refer to. If he gets convicted

634
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: here of anything, and he's you know, the forty one counts,

635
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: forty one counts here, I don't know how many he's

636
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: charging off the top of my head's probably like six

637
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: or seven or more. But you know, if he gets

638
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 3: convicted on any of these counts, even if I don't

639
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 3: think much of the Rico count, he not only runs

640
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: the risk of a prison sentence, he can't be pardoned,

641
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 3: you know. So with the federal stuff, there's the way

642
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: that he is confronting those cases. There's an element of

643
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: delay seeking in his strategy because he knows if he

644
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: can push the cases far enough into next year and

645
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: potentially beyond, than if a Republican whether it's Trump or not,

646
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 3: wins the election, you either have the Justice Department dismissed

647
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 3: the case or if he if he's been convicted in

648
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: one of those cases by then, if he wins, he

649
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: can pardon or a Republican president to pardon here. He

650
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: can't do that if he gets convicted. That's you know,

651
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: it's not something he can shake on.

652
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: So how do you think this plays out?

653
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 6: Andy?

654
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: What does the trial get done before the election? And

655
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: do you think that some of the I mean she

656
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: wants to try them all at once? Also, how does

657
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: Trump plus the eighteen how does that play out?

658
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 3: Well? I tried, Actually, I was the junior member of

659
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: the team when I was a young prosecutor on what

660
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: I think remains the longest federal criminal prosecution in American

661
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: history seventeen months, the pizza connection case with a mafia

662
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: organized prime international racketeering case where we started out with

663
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: twenty two defendants and ended with nineteen. Some of them

664
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: will lost to natural causes, some not, but it you know,

665
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: it's a The reason the case took seventeen months is

666
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 3: if you tried any you know, one or four or

667
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: five of them, you could have done it in a

668
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: finite period of time. Maybe, but you know, if you're

669
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: going to do all of them in one case, that

670
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: takes a long time. And the other thing here, Buck,

671
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 3: is that she's indicted a bunch of lawyers here. You know,

672
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: those lawyers are going to make like a million motions.

673
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: So her you know, I.

674
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: Heard her say that she expects to be able to

675
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: get this case to trial in six months. I'm like,

676
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: good luck. I don't think there's a prayer that she's

677
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: going to get this case to trial in six months.

678
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 3: I think there's going to be mammoth litigation here. And

679
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: I also think that, you know, the litigation is not

680
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: going to be just to churn, you know, just to

681
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: spin everyone's wheels. There's problems with this case, and I

682
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: think there's a good chance that some of the council stick,

683
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: but some of the answer may not, including the Rico count,

684
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: which I think is is rickety. And I think there's

685
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: kind of a disconnect between the strength of the case

686
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 3: and the notoriety of the defendants that she has targeted. So,

687
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: for example, I think the strongest counts that I what

688
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 3: I've been able to study of the indictment so far,

689
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: I think, like, for example, packing into the state election

690
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: system is that's the kind of thing I expected to

691
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: see here. You know, a crime that's directly related to

692
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 3: the state's duty to protect election integrity that they don't

693
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: really have a federal analog. It's not the kind of

694
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 3: thing that Smith could have charged, but she can charge

695
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 3: because she's the state da right. But there's very little

696
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: evidence that Trump's involved in that, you know, So it

697
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 3: just seems to me like the strongest the counts get

698
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 3: to me, the less complicity there seems to be with

699
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 3: the main people that she's seeking headlines on it.

700
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: Andy, I'm just curious. I mean, I think sometimes this,

701
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, doing a little sitting across the chessboard can

702
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: be an interesting exercise. If you were a power mad

703
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: Democrat prosecutor and you were trying to get Trump in

704
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: this Georgia case, right, if you were taking over and

705
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: your mandate in life was anything to get a conviction

706
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, any kind of conviction? Would you have

707
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: left off all the other eighteen left off the rico? Like,

708
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: what what would have been the smarter pathway from her

709
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: perspective where she just clearly wants a guilty verdict against him.

710
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, actually I think it may be worse than that.

711
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: I think she mainly wanted to indict the case.

712
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm not just to indict, Okay, yeah, yeah.

713
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: Well but because I think, you know, we talked about

714
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 3: the pardon as part of the you know, it's a

715
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: quirk of state prosecutions versus the federal that you know,

716
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 3: he can't pardon this the other quirk of state prosecutions.

717
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: I think that we always have to keep our eyes

718
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 3: on And I say this especially with Bragg. These are

719
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: elected Democrats who happened to be district attorneys.

720
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 6: Right.

721
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: They're not like secutors who are appointed in the federal system,

722
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: where at least in theory, you get vetted by the

723
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: Senate to make sure you're not going to use your

724
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: awesome law enforcement power to go after your political enemies. Here,

725
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: going after your political enemies is good politics in these

726
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 3: blue cities, right, And she gets a lot of points

727
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: just by bringing this case. But if I were going

728
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 3: to go after Trump, I think the reason she brings

729
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: to RICO is she she wanted to bring this is

730
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: like the fantasy case of democrats. Right, they're all racketeers,

731
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: and she's run in everyone they hate.

732
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: Right, She's going for the she's going for the home

733
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: run on this one, Andy, Right. I mean, she's swinging.

734
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 3: But the only way she figured she could have could

735
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 3: hang that together is bring it as a RICO. If

736
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: you wanted to convict Trump, then you boil the case

737
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: down to the few things that Trump did that you

738
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: can pin on them and focus on that and maybe

739
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: you'd have a prayer getting the case to the trial,

740
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: even if his dance guard wasn't already pretty full with

741
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 3: other engagements. But I don't think you know this is

742
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: this is not design. This is designed for election campaign.

743
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: I got you so swinging for the fences here, like

744
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: going for the high you know, going all in top

745
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: count Rico and everything else. The victory in essence for

746
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: the prosecutor here, given its a political system and a

747
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: political you know, political system that puts her there in

748
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: the first place, is you brought the highest possible choir, Like,

749
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: no matter what it's upside for Fanny Willis at this point, right,

750
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: I mean politically speaking.

751
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know she didn't bring Jack Smith

752
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: brought the best case progressive legal charges against Trump. Right,

753
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: this is kind of like more like if Jen Sackey

754
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 3: wrote the criminal charges rather than a lawyer. You know,

755
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 3: this is like a Democrat version of what the post

756
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 3: twenty twenty election was all about. It.

757
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a real risk that they could

758
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many I mean I was reading

759
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: them at the top of the show, Andy, there's so

760
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: many of these counts. But things like you know, forgery

761
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: in the first degree false statement in writing these things

762
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: appear to the you know, the problem with the Florida

763
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: case for Trump, it seems to all of us, is

764
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: even if you think the documents were fine for him

765
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: to have or whatever, and put that aside, I don't

766
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: think you do think the documents were fine for him

767
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: to have, But even if they were, the way he

768
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: reacted to that, the process may be a part of

769
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: his problem there, right, is that's fair to say? Is

770
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: there anything like that here that could jam Trump up?

771
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: Meaning that the big stuff They go, no, he's not guilty,

772
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, they signed this thing and it's a

773
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: sworn declaration, and now we've got you know what I mean?

774
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, And I think that we're all going

775
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: to need to sort of digest this a little more

776
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: than I've been able to. But I feel like going

777
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 3: through this so far, every place I've kicked the tires,

778
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 3: I've found problems. I've never been blown away by the

779
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: fake electors thing. The fake Electors thing to me is

780
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 3: just like it's the Russia. It's the post twenty twenty

781
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: election equivalent of what Russia Gate they used to complain

782
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 3: about all the time about Trump supposedly telling putin that

783
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 3: he should hack Hillary. You know, like, if you're listening Russia,

784
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: I hope that you're you know, find the thirty thousand email.

785
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty sixteen, Yeah sure.

786
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

787
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 3: So that was like the stupidest I mean, even Molla

788
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: repeated it in his indictments. And I always thought it

789
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: was the stupidest claim because like, by the time he

790
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: said that, first of all, he was obviously just trying

791
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 3: to show, you know, draw attention to how reckless she

792
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: had been with national security information. But by then, like

793
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 3: the FBI had Hillary servers, there was no way they

794
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: could have been hacked. You know, the whole thing was stupid,

795
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 3: but they repeated it again and again and again. And

796
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 3: I think the fake Electors to me, has been is

797
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: a kin to that in the sense that you guys

798
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 3: remember January sixth as well as I do. The fake

799
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 3: electors were not a thing. You know, they read in

800
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: the in these indictments a lot bigger and bolder the

801
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: same thing in the January sixth committee hearings. They're a

802
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 3: lot bigger issue in the retelling than they were at

803
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 3: the time. Nobody believed those people were certified state electors.

804
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 3: I you know, if there hadn't been a riot, I

805
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: don't think it would have. You know, it wouldn't have

806
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: taken ten seconds. If somebody was stupid enough to raise

807
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 3: the you know, the contention that they were legitimate electors,

808
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: that would have been given the back of the hand

809
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: in nothing flat. So you know, to treat that like

810
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 3: it's the crime of the century, which seems to be

811
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: the objective here. I've always thought that, like those people,

812
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 3: let's put a couple of knuckleheads in the Trump strategy

813
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 3: team aside. The people in the States thought that they

814
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: were not fake electors. They thought they were contingent electors.

815
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 3: Their idea was that if Trump managed to get the

816
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 3: thing overturned in the state courts or in the legislature,

817
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: then they stood ready to be the slight of electors

818
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: if the election result got legitimately overturned. But nobody had

819
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 3: in Washington thought yeah on January sixth, but they were

820
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: legitimate electors. So you know, I just think if that's

821
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: what you're hanging your head on as a juror, I

822
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: would have a hard time with that.

823
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: You think that Trump is in whatever these trials actually happened,

824
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: Do you think he's in pretty good shape? To beat

825
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: all four.

826
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 3: Man, it's what's he up to now? One hundred and

827
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 3: twenty coumps. Well, no, I guess what's it? I mean,

828
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: it's it was eighty going into this one, right, and

829
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 3: is he in like six or seven or eight here?

830
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 3: So you know, I mean, it's hard to beat every

831
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 3: single count. And there is stuff that went on here

832
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 3: that they may be able to say. You know, state

833
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: conspiracy law tends to be not as prosecuted friendly as

834
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: federal conspiracy law does. But if this were a federal case,

835
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: would I would argue that Trump would have a big

836
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: problem if you get like a good state crime, like

837
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: they got access, like they hacked into the state system, say,

838
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: and they got access to the voter information. And there

839
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 3: was any evidence that Trump had either green lighted that

840
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: or that he knew about it and sort of like

841
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: nodded and said, yeah, that's a good idea with something

842
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 3: like that, right, they he'd have a problem, you know,

843
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 3: And there's so many counts, you don't know, it's hard

844
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 3: to say off the top of your head, you know,

845
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: which what kind of of all the things he's been

846
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: charged with, what falls into that category.

847
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: This was my concern too, Andy because I remember from

848
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: government days things like official misuse of computer sounds very

849
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: administrative and whatever, but it's kind of a you did

850
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: or you didn't, and if they decide to throw the

851
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,240
Speaker 1: book at you can actually be really nasty.

852
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's right. And I think that's what

853
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 3: strikes me about this indictment so far, is that the

854
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 3: more puny the charges seem to sound, the more strong

855
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 3: they probably are. Was there really you know, state election

856
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: law stuff, whereas the more grandiose, like the big Rico

857
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 3: conspiracy that gets everyone in. I am so like underwhelmed

858
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: by that. Yeah, I can't tell you.

859
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: All right, Andy McCarthy, everybody, Andy, we'll keep you on

860
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: speed dial. Thanks for being here.

861
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: Thanks guys, great to be with you.

862
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: More and more people are speculating on whether we'll hear

863
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 1: an announcement from our federal government sometime this year about

864
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: a central bank digital currency. According to former Wall Street

865
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 1: insider Tikachuwari, the government could soon announce the details, which

866
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: may go as far as a mandatory recall on the

867
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: US dollar. A new digital version would take place of it.

868
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: Tikachuwari's warning the official announcement could come in just the

869
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: next few months, he's laid out this government plan in

870
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: a video that shows you three steps that you need

871
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: to take to prepare. Go online to his website, dollar

872
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 1: Recall dot Com. Watch this video that the government doesn't

873
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: want you to see. Dollar Recall dot Com. Learn how

874
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: to prepare before it's too late. Your life savings is

875
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: at stake here if things get bad once more, it's

876
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: dollar Recall dot Com paid for by Palm Beach Research Group,

877
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: Keeping it real, keeping it honest. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton.

878
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 1: All right, we've got our friend, Sir Rob Amari with

879
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: us now. He's an author and a columnist. He's the

880
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 1: founder of Compact and he got a new book out,

881
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: Tyranny Incorporated. So Rob, thanks for being with us.

882
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 4: Thanks Buck, and sorry I miss Clay.

883
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, he's uh. He sends you his regards.

884
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: He's I believe in the air as we speak, otherwise

885
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: he would certainly be here too.

886
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

887
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: I think this is really interesting, s Rob, because one

888
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: of the one of the things about trump Ism that

889
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: I would say is an observation more than an opinion,

890
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: is it it created a broader discussion about economic populism

891
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: in the country than we've seen in a long time.

892
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: What that really means, what that looks like? Uh, what

893
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: is it that corporations are doing from your you know,

894
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: from your vantage point that you deal with in this book,

895
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: that you think need to be addressed restructured. What are

896
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: the concerns.

897
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, So in the over the past two generations, we've

898
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 4: had a shift to ever greater corporate power book, and

899
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 4: it's been made possible by the idea, the incorrect idea

900
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 4: too often endorsed by kind of the establishment GOP above all,

901
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 4: you know, figures like Paul Ryan or Mitt Romney, that

902
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 4: coercion is only what government does to us, and that

903
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 4: we don't face coercion in the private economy, in our

904
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 4: lives as workers, as consumers, as citizens. And this is

905
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 4: actually an alien idea in the Republican and I mean

906
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 4: that in the both the capital are and the small

907
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 4: r sense of Republican. In that tradition. You know, our

908
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 4: founding fathers were highly alert to the possibilities of private coercion,

909
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 4: writing about it in terms of faction, of the dangers

910
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 4: of faction in the federalist papers, as you know. So

911
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 4: you know, over the past i'd say maybe half a

912
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 4: decade or so we've seen it. We've seen ordinary Republicans,

913
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 4: people of the right become a little bit more skeptical

914
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 4: of a kind of free market uber alis mentality when

915
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 4: we see you know, corporations acting against the common good

916
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 4: of the country by you know, shipping jobs overseas and

917
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 4: destroying you know, wide swaths of manufacturing in the heartland.

918
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 4: You know, it's this horrific tragedy where if you look

919
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 4: at the maps of the counties that are exposed to

920
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 4: you know, free trade from China, those it over overlaps

921
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 4: almost uncannily with the same areas that are hit by

922
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 4: the opioid crisis and so on. And just very briefly,

923
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 4: we've also seen in the vaccine mandates, for example, the

924
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 4: way that government can often collude with corporations to create

925
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 4: laws that imposed mandates are in ordinary people which they

926
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 4: have to fulfill and it benefits you know, obviously big Pharma.

927
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 4: Or when I was at the New York Post I've

928
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 4: left now, but at the time I was sort of

929
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 4: in the eye of the storm having to do with

930
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 4: the you know, the big tech censorship of the Hunter

931
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 4: Biden story. You know, again partly government related, but also

932
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: it's just and the enormous amount of power wielded by

933
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 4: a few Silicon Valley oligarchs and their managers and programmers

934
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 4: to silence and unpersoned the rest of us, including the

935
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 4: newspaper founded by Alexander Hamilton. So there's this new alertness

936
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 4: to the possibilities of market based coercion on the right,

937
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 4: which I think is healthy and in line with actually

938
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 4: older and deeper traditions of the.

939
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: Right sorob When we talk about this, I mean understanding

940
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: or awareness of the problem is critical. I feel like

941
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: where this gets really challenging right away is so the

942
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 1: things to do about it. You know, you've had the right,

943
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: I think, in the last year feel a little more

944
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: of its muscle on these issues of dealing with corporate

945
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: America than we see a long time. There's the Rohndis

946
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: Scantis approach to Disney and Florida. There's the effectively the

947
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 1: brand destruction of bud Light. There have been a number

948
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: of other things, you know, whether it's a movie that

949
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 1: bombed or you know, is it boycotts that you think

950
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: are going to change the trajectory or change the the

951
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: the tyrannical abilities of corporations, Like what is you know,

952
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: you've diagnosed the disease, if not the cure, what is

953
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: the treatment for corporate tyranny.

954
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 4: Well, I think boycott's actually important. I would not sort

955
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 4: of pooh pooh boycotts there. You know, that's one of

956
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 4: the weapons of relatively powerless consumers as against much larger entities,

957
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 4: and you know there's a long history of them working

958
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 4: in multiple causes. That said, I'm a little bit worried

959
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 4: that some of the responses always go toward just sort

960
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 4: of at the level of the superficial cultural issues. Not

961
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 4: that those aren't important, don't. I don't want Disney, you know,

962
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 4: propagandizing my kids into gender ideology more than anyone else.

963
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 4: But there are policy solutions then. I sometimes feel, you know,

964
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 4: this new crop of more populous type GOP lawmakers, you know,

965
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 4: bless their hearts, they'll go on Fox News or they'll

966
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 4: go on you know, on the congressional hearings, and they'll

967
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 4: be erate CEOs and stuff, but they don't, for example,

968
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 4: the issue of d banking or depersoning of individuals by

969
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,919
Speaker 4: big tech companies. There are policy solutions that they could

970
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 4: do which would actually be again deeply in tune with

971
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 4: our traditions which they don't pursue. So, for example, the

972
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 4: idea of a common carrier provider is a very powerful one.

973
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 4: It actually goes back to the common law in England,

974
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 4: so it's very very old. The idea is that for

975
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 4: services that are common to everyone, that you all, we

976
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 4: all have to use, the provider, even if it's a

977
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 4: private provider, can't unreasonably discriminate against individuals. So for example,

978
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 4: we already apply this to your to the trains or

979
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 4: to you know, your phone company. Your phone company can't

980
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 4: dephone you for saying the wrong thing. And as Justice

981
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 4: Clarence Thomas, you know, that famous radical leftist, has suggested

982
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 4: that same common carrier doctrine may have to be applied

983
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:20,439
Speaker 4: to things like banks and social media companies because otherwise, yeah,

984
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 4: you know, especially right now, it's a lot of conservatives

985
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 4: that are on the sharp end of this stuff. Nigel

986
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 4: farajin Britain lost his bank account infamously January sixth. Defendants

987
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 4: haven't been able to use PayPal to fundraise for their cause,

988
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 4: et cetera. But I think there should be a warning here,

989
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 4: even to people on the left, if they're willing to listen.

990
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 4: Right now, they're using these mechanisms to basically beat up

991
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 4: their enemies, but it doesn't mean that they you know,

992
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 4: potentially won't find themselves on the wrong side of this later.

993
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 4: So again, we you know, we we have policy mechanisms,

994
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 4: traditions in the American and common law that we have

995
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 4: to use and not just sort of shout about it ons,

996
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 4: although believe me, I've done my share of shouting to.

997
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: The book is Tyranny, Inc. How private power crushed American

998
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: liberty and what to do about it? Just one more

999
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: for you on that, sir, Rob. What do we do

1000
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: about big tech and social media companies? It got a

1001
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: lot of attention at the end of the Trump administration,

1002
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: then Trump didn't end up being president for the next

1003
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: four years. Now we see the extent of uh perhaps

1004
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: the collusion between government entities and big tech for obvious

1005
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: political purposes and really political leverage. So what do we do?

1006
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: How do we handle this? They've seen some conservative or

1007
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even say conservative, free speech platforms like Rumble

1008
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: for example, which is a sponsor here on the show,

1009
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: among others, are out there. What's the way forward?

1010
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, so those free speech platforms are great. I watched

1011
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 4: rumble shows myself. But again there's policy solutions. One is

1012
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 4: there's a litigation solution, which actually sent or Cruise was

1013
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 4: the first to propose, which is, once it becomes government

1014
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 4: actively directing social media companies to censor something, then that

1015
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 4: implicates the First Amendment. Yes, Twitter or Facebook or whatever

1016
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 4: might be privately owned, but when it's that clearly being

1017
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 4: been sort of subordinated by the government imperative, then you

1018
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 4: can't say that your First Amendment happens hasn't been violated.

1019
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 4: Another one is this common carrier doctrine. That's Clarence Thomas's no,

1020
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 4: all these are coming from conservative thinkers and politicians. A

1021
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 4: common carrier doctrine, the same thing that prevents, you know,

1022
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 4: a publicly owned, a public service oriented private company like

1023
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 4: your phone company from discriminating against you, should also be

1024
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 4: applied to big tech. The last one, which gets a

1025
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 4: bit technical, but it's to reform what's called Section two

1026
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 4: thirty of the Communications Decency Act. It's a law that

1027
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 4: allows it was enacted before there was Facebook or Twitter

1028
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 4: or Instagram, but it allows these companies to act like publishers,

1029
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 4: meaning they can censor stuff but without facing any of

1030
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 4: the traditional liabilities of a publisher, like if I God

1031
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 4: forbid libel someone on this show, not just me, but

1032
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 4: you know iHeartRadio would be liable to libel. But for

1033
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 4: these companies, we've created this mechanism where they can intervene

1034
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 4: in speech. And the goal was to prevent pornography, hence

1035
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 4: why the name of the act is the Communications Decency Act.

1036
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 4: But they're using it. There's plenty of porn on the platforms.

1037
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 4: They're using it to silence speech, and so if they're

1038
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 4: going to do that, we have to take away that protection,

1039
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 4: and I think it will scare them a lot. So

1040
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 4: these are the policy solutions I think.

1041
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: Sirob Amari is the author the book Tyranny, Inc. How

1042
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: Private Power Crush American Liberty and What to Do about It.

1043
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: It is out today, sob thanks so much, my pleasure.

1044
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: That's the thing. We've got to figure out how to

1045
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: deal with the advantages that the Democrats have carved out

1046
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: using private corporate power, but in a public forum and

1047
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: even allied with the public sectors in the government. It's

1048
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: a mess, a mess, and it affects elections. I mean,

1049
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: he was at the New York Post, so Rob's a

1050
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,959
Speaker 1: new York Post writer, and he was a Wall Street

1051
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: Journal editorial writer before that. When they suppressed the hunter

1052
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: Byden laptop that probably, I mean, you can you know,

1053
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: never can prove this because you know, we can't redo history.

1054
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: But it probably costs Frump the election, right the suppression

1055
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: of the laptop story certainly would have been helpful to

1056
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: him for people to know that truth. We'll finish up

1057
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: with some of your call some of your emails, so

1058
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: stick with us here for just a bit more. You

1059
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: and I likely share this same cell phone company, Puretalk.

1060
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: You've got the same notice I did, and they increased

1061
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: the amount of data on our plans by fifty percent

1062
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: last month without any monthly plan cost increase. It's still

1063
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: just twenty dollars. That's great news for those of us

1064
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: who have pure Talk, and it's time to make the switch.

1065
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: If you don't have pure Talk, pure Talk has added

1066
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: data every plan and includes a mobile hotspot with each one,

1067
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: with no price increase whatsoever. When you switch to pure Talk,

1068
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: it's just twenty dollars a month for unlimited talk text

1069
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: and now fifty percent more five G data plus mobile hotspot.

1070
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: The cell phone service is every bit as good as

1071
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: any of the other well known companies like AT and T,

1072
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: Verizon and T Mobile. That's because their service is on

1073
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: one of these companies networks and towers. Dial pound two fifty,

1074
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: say Clay and Buck to make the switch to Puretalk.

1075
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: You'll save it additional fifty percent off your first month. Again,

1076
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Speaker 1: that's dial pound two five zero, say Clay and Buck

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Speaker 1: and make the switch to my cell phone company, Puretalk today.

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Speaker 1: Want more Clay and Buck that you did int here

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 6: Get podcast extras in the Clay and Buck podcast feed,

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Speaker 6: find it on the iheartab or wherever you get your podcasts.