WEBVTT - #076 Jason Flom with Doug DiLosa and Chris Pourciau on Amendment 2 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.400 I've never been in trouble in my life. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.040 I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:05.360 I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 coorerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.479 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally lost trusting humanity after what happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:24.280 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.840 we have a very special episode that I know I 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.880 say that a lot, but this time it's really true. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.199 This week's episode is a call to action because we're 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.280 here to talk about the non unanimous jury problem in 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.440 Louisiana and constitutional amendment too, which is on the ballot 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.600 next month November sixth, and it needs to be eliminated. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.160 Today we have one of my favorite human beings and 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.680 a personal hero of mine, Doug Delosa. Doug, welcome back 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:52.560 to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:54.600 Thank you, Jason, pleasure to be back. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.680 And we have a guy whose name I can't pronounce 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.960 but I'm going to try it anyway, who is a 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.000 glutton for punishment. Let's just say that Chris Puscho is 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.600 here for the first time. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:05.840 Chris, thank you for having me. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.960 Jason, and by way of introduction, both of these guys 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.280 are Louisiana natives, and we're here for a very specific 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.320 purpose today, which is to discuss the non unanimous jury 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.840 verdict problem in Louisiana, which is a unique and really 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.360 terrifying problem, but with any luck at all, it's about 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.320 to get fixed. And Doug, you have a very personal 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.800 take on this because you are someone who was sentenced 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.760 to life in prison after a non unanimous jury declared 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.359 you guilty, and so you I mean, I can't even 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.640 imagine what this looks like through your eyes. But once 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.800 you elaborate a little on that situation. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.040 I was tried and convicted a second degree murder back 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.960 in nineteen eighty seven, and the jury verdict was eleven 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.200 to one. It was a non unanimous verdict, and from 0:02:54.200 --> 0:03:01.160 my understanding, after quite a bit of deliberation, numerous votes, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:05.600 at one point in time, the most people they had 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:10.519 for conviction was eight, with four people holding out saying 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.840 that I was not guilty. Then the bailiff comes in 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.400 and says, if y'all don't come in with a verdict 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.680 in the next couple of minutes, we're going to have 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.600 to continue this in the morning, and lo and behold, 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:27.880 three of the four people decided to change their minds, like, well, 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.160 you know, the majority of people feel you're guilty, We're 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:32.959 just going to vote guilty so we can get out 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.600 of here. So I was sent to prison for life 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:41.240 with no opportunity for parole, probation, suspension of sentence, and 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:46.000 the verdict even after that was non unanimous. And you know, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.560 I may be opinionated and a little bit biased, but 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:56.040 with even one person saying that I'm not guilty, to me, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:57.240 that's reasonable doubt. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.160 I mean, yeah, reasonable. I mean it's eight percent of 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.680 the jury, basically, right, more than eight percent of the jury, 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.360 And it's insane. I mean in your case. First of all, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.680 let's just reflect for a second on the idea that 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.240 those three jurors who slipped, you know, who flipped their 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.200 vote at the last minute, apparently felt that their evening 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.960 at home was more valuable than the rest of your life, 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.000 which is hard to process. I mean, I can't imagine 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.520 what was going through their minds. But and I know 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.640 the details of your case. Anyone who's listened to your 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:33.680 episode on Wrongful Conviction knows that no reasonable person could 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.960 have listened to the evidence that was presented. Even though 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.440 they framed you egregiously, they still couldn't have possibly looked 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.680 at that and said, yep, I'm absolutely sure this guy 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.240 killed his wife. Because the circumstances of your case are 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.200 as crazy as any I've heard, and I've heard hundreds 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.840 of them. So and Chris, let's turn to you, because 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.640 Chris is the deputy director of the Unanimous Jury Coalition, 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.000 and you've had a lot of experience in trying to 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.360 do what you can to bring some justice to the 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.920 injustice system in Louisiana. But first, let me ask you 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.679 this question, because having been a public defender and everything else, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.359 in probably the toughest place in the country to be 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.599 a public defender. Are there any other states? I know 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:20.240 the answer to this question, but are there any other 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.640 states that have a non unanimous jury verdict? 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:23.360 One? 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.080 Which one aside from louise and it's organ Oregon. 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.200 I think they're working on fixing it too. 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:34.120 Because we probably have that fixed in the spring. 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.080 Right And I'm yeah, I actually met with the governor 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:38.960 and spoke to her about it. I know she'd like to 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.080 see it fixed as well. But the but back to 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.320 this this crazy question, and certainly Oregon is a much 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.240 smaller problem because they have a tiny fraction of the 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.760 number of cases that go through the They probably have 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.119 less cases than New Orleans, I would guess as a state. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.279 But we can't prove that. Yeah, I can't prove that. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.159 I don't know, but that's a guess. But how does 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.960 this situation even exists? Why does it exist, Chris, I mean, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.240 what was the origin of this non unanimous jury verdict? 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:10.240 A protocol? 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.400 Let me just interject that while Oregon is the only 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.839 other state in the United States where they have such 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.760 a thing as a non unanimous jury verdict, Louisiana is 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.359 the only state where a person can be sentenced to 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.640 life imprisonment on less than the unanimous jury verdict. So 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.240 in Oregon, while a person can be convicted with an 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.919 eleven to one or ten to two, they can't be 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.680 sentenced to life in prison. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.440 And that's a tough cross to bear, I mean, and 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.680 tough it is, obviously to the light of a word 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:49.839 for that, But I can't imagine for you or anyone else. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.200 And it's You're not an isolated case. And we'll talk 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.160 about that in a second. To be sitting there spending 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.440 the rest of your life in prison knowing that a 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.240 jury of your peers didn't actually vote to convict you. 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.760 They they It's called a hung jury for a reason, right, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:10.920 I mean, if anything, you should have been given a retrial, 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.000 and you know, if the jury couldn't decide, then we 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.120 know what happens. They go home and you start all 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.520 over again. Sometime in the future. But that's obviously now 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.240 what happened. How common is it for people to be 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.160 sentenced to prison or even life in prison in Louisiana 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:28.400 by a non unanimous jury. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.720 Well, it's a horror, you know, to think that they're 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.800 members of the jury who think you're innocent, sometimes as 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.840 many as too voting not guilty. Yet you're found guilty 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:47.120 and sent to prison for mandatory life sentence or practical 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.680 life sentence, meaning that just because you're not sentenced to life, 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.280 if you sentenced to three hundred years, no one's going 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:59.960 to live to serve that. So, you know, it's disheartening 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.520 at the very least, you know, to think that you're 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.360 facing a system that the chords are stacked against you. 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.640 The DA is bringing marginal cases because they know they 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:13.600 don't need a unanimous verdict. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.120 Right, And that's a very important point that you brought up, right, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.960 So das are much more inclined to bring case that 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.400 they otherwise might drop because they know that they only 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.520 have to convince, you know, basically ten out of twelve. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.400 I don't handing me do the math. You know, a 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.800 majority of the jury, you know, to convict. I mean 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:39.080 It's important also, Doug, to talk about the fact that, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.959 you know, for people who are listening, going, well, this 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.280 can never happen to me. I mean, you know, like 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:50.040 it's not really going to affect my life. Right, you 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.480 would be somebody that would probably have a lot to 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.400 say about that because you were the farthest thing from 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.240 a career criminal. I mean, when this happened, your life 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.000 was basically a bull of cherry's right. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.920 I don't know about a bowl of cherries, but maybe 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:08.360 a bowl of peaches. Yeah, you're right, Jason. I don't 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.360 think there's necessarily anything special about me. But at the 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.800 same time, I don't think I'm the typical person who 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.520 gets sentenced to life in prison in the state of 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.920 Louisiana or anywhere. I'd never been in trouble with the law, 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.520 I guess prior to me being arrested, I had one 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.800 traffic ticket twenty years earlier, and that's the extent of 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:34.240 my exposure to the law. I came from an upper 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.800 middle class family. No one in my family had ever 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.680 been in trouble with the law. I was happily married 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.360 with two children, and we will living the American dream 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.080 as far as I'm concerned. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:48.839 Until it turned into the literal. 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.880 Worst turned into the American nightmare. 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.240 Yeah, So, Chris, I want to come back to you, 0:09:55.880 --> 0:10:00.480 what is the origin of this very bizarre It was 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:05.240 really Unamerican protocol that is sort of ulique, unique to 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.320 Louisiana and Oregon and hopefully going to be going away 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.280 by the time the most people even hearing this podcast. 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:18.000 So, the drafters of the state Constitution in Louisiana adopted 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:24.120 in eighteen ninety eight to quote, to perpetuate the supremacy 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.240 of the Anglo Saxon race in Louisiana. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:30.400 So in eighteen ninety eight they drafted an amendment to 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.360 the constitution. And it's hard to imagine that they were 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:39.400 thinking anything other than, well, if we get some people 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.320 who are of a color that's probably not the word 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.520 they were using on a jury. We want to make 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.040 sure that they don't get to screw up our you know, 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.400 our our ability to lock people up whatever we want 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:59.240 to more or less. And since the overwhelming majority of 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.640 the people being locked up back then and now were 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:07.360 people of color, it's you know, it's really hard to 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:13.160 imagine that they had anything other than the worst intentions 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.840 when they set this up. And when I say the worst, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.040 I mean purely racist intentions. Is that fair? 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.920 That's fair, very fair. And the intent was clear. If 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.000 the federal constitution required that African Americans be allowed to 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.400 serve on juries, the state constitution would make sure that 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.040 minority votes could be discounted. 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.760 Now, let me ask you this. You have many years 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:53.640 of experience working in really in the trenches of the 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.280 criminal justice system in New Orleans, right. 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.360 Not too many, but yes, I was a client advocate 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.199 at the Public Defender's Office. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.360 So you've seen a lot, and we know sixty minutes 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:11.240 said that amazing disturbing peace on the Public Defender's office 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.240 in Louisiana a couple of years ago, where the head 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.760 of the association whatever it's called, the Public Defenders in 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.480 Louisiana or was it New Ds It was New Orleans, right, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.480 So the head of the Public Defenders actually took a 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.040 stand and said he was going to refuse to allow 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:34.560 his attorneys, his public defenders, to handle any felony cases, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.679 violent felony cases, because, as he said, we've got fifty 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:42.920 two public defenders who are processing twenty thousand cases a year. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.800 So the math is simple, right, they were doing about 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:51.200 four hundred cases per person. And when you get deeper 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.079 into the weeds on the numbers, and you know the 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.800 courts aren't open on the weekends, that means they were 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.840 doing about a case and a half a day average, right. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.839 So yeah, and just to be clear on that, what 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.920 happened at the public Defender's office at that point there 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.920 was because of staff turnover and the way things were 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.400 shaking out, the public defender in New Orleans began refusing 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:24.000 cases on all like major crimes, like life without parole, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.960 cases that the public defenders take would take at the time, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.800 public defenders would not take in that office. We're not 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.480 taking death penalty cases. That's what was going on when 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.679 the sixty minutes piece came out. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.160 Right, And there's a simple reason for that, which is 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.640 that and the gentleman I forgot his name, but he 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:46.920 spoke very eloquently, and he talked about how he wasn't 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.160 going to continue to just process people into prison because 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.760 you know, when you break it down, if you're handling 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.040 that many cases plus trying to have any kind of 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.280 a life which as a public defender and making you know, 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.120 barely above minimum wage and with debts from college or 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.280 law school and everything else. I mean, there's an amazing movie, 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:10.200 Gideon's Promise, that really takes you inside, you know, the 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.840 struggles that these people, many of whom are really doing, 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.320 you know, doing the Lord's work, so to speak. It's 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.640 it's impossible for them to mount any sort of an 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.760 effective defense without having any time to prepare. Many of 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.160 them meet their clients on the day of the trial 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.120 for the first time, and then you're up there. I mean, 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.600 I can't imagine that, you know what's going through somebody's 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.640 mind when they're like, wait, you're my attorney, And basically 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.240 a lot of them just come up and say, hey, 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.160 my advice is pleaded guilty because I can't you know, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:42.360 I don't. I don't know what to do. And that's 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.880 why we have this this guilty plea problem in America 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.160 where ninety six percent of felony convictions are a result 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.960 of guilty Please, it's probably even higher down there. If 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.560 I had to guess, Doug, what's your take on this 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.680 whole situation, and what do you I mean, what can 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.680 be done? I mean, obviously people have to get out 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.960 and vote vote right, because his referendum's on the ballot 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:03.640 and that's what we're here to talk about now, to 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.800 be about to get out and vote and get rid 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.840 of this thing before it gets rid of you. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:13.440 You're right, Jason, the education of the voters in Louisiana 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.520 is probably the most important thing. You know, I myself 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.720 haven't gone through everything that I have. It only dawned 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.240 on me a couple of years ago that a person 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:32.040 could be convicted in Louisiana by less than a unanimous verdict, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.840 and that we were the only place in the United 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.920 States where I would have received a life sentence based 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.600 on an eleven to one vote. So if I didn't 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:47.080 realize this, I would say that the vast majority of 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:51.880 voters in Louisiana have no idea what the law is, right. 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.040 I mean, you are a very educated guy, and you 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.760 know you would have had every reason if anyone would 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.520 know about it, you would have been person. But it's 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:06.000 sort of obscure aspect of the criminal justice or criminal 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.640 injustice system down there. And we know that up until 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:14.840 very recently, Louisiana incarcerated more Americans per capita than any 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.240 state in the country. Now Oklahoma has taken that dubious distinction, 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:25.080 and of course New Orleans incarcerates more Louisiana's per capita 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.760 than anywhere else in Louisiana. So you were actually right 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.360 in the epicenter of the problem, and you were processed 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.880 I mean, yeah, really processed through because it was good 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.680 for certain people's careers to get a conviction. In your case. 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.680 I mean, your case was for people who aren't familiar 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.160 with the Doug Delosa case. I mean, your case was 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.240 a high profile case and they needed to get a 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.320 conviction and they couldn't figure it out, and you made 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.120 a convenience scapegoat. Is that about right? 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:59.600 That's pretty much it. The careers of the two assistant 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.240 districts attorneys and the detectives who arrested me rested on 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:09.399 getting a conviction, and I think they did it just 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.720 to prove that they could frame a person and get 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:13.399 away with it. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.560 Well, one of the most terrifying aspects of your case 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.800 is the fact that they actually told you they were 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.040 framing you. Well, one of the arresting officers told you 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:23.840 they were framing you while they were framing you, right, 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.680 which is something that I think if you put that, 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.199 you know, I'm friends with John Grisham, I think I 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:29.520 don't have to call him and see if he even 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.080 I don't think he would even dare to put that 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.240 in a book. If someone would go, that's ridiculous. No 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:34.320 one's gonna believe that, right. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.199 Yeah, The arresting detective stood face to face with me, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.560 and when I asked him why he was arresting me 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.000 when he knew I didn't do it. I won't go 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:46.760 into all the profanity that he used. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.960 You can. It's a family show, but you can go ahead. 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.200 You know. I mean he looked me in the face 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.000 and almost spitting with his words and said, fuck you, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.600 fuck your children, fuck your dead wife. And they said, 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:05.320 stupid bitch to die in my parish, my jurisdiction. And 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.080 I know you didn't do it, but you wanted someone arrested. 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.280 So guess what. I couldn't find the person that actually 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.280 did it, but I can frame you. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.360 So you're rich, right, So you had the you had 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.919 the nerve to actually speak out to try to encourage 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.960 the authorities to find the person that murdered your wife, 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.360 the mother of your children, and that's really what your 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:33.320 crime was. And then that was that was enough to say, Okay, Well, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.400 I mean that wasn't the only reason right. The other 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.960 thing was a few months had gone by they didn't 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.200 have an arrest. We know that in these cases when 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:46.360 there's a media spotlight, a high profile case, nice neighborhood, 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.040 brutal crime, people are scared. There's a lot of pressure. 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:57.920 There's that much more of a chance that an innocent 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.280 person's going to get not just wrongfully convicted, but framed 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.399 as you were because of all those factors. And this 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.760 was this, I mean this when it hit all those buttons. 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.600 Yeah, absolutely, I mean I was told by quite a 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.240 few people, including the attorney that represented me a trial, 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.720 if I'd have just kept my mouth shut, I'd never 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.960 been arrested. They would have left the crime go unsolved. 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.680 But because I'd caused trouble for the local police department, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:29.080 they were going to make trouble for me. 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:35.640 Wow, that's I got to just process that for a minute. 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.120 And I know your story. I mean, I've told your 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.360 story so many times, and I find sometimes when I'm 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.800 actually telling your story, I'm listening to myself tell it 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:44.359 and going, no, that can't be true. But I know 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:45.920 that it is because I know you now for how 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.439 many years It's like nine years? Yeah, and so and 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.960 we've been you know, we've told your story in great 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.399 detail on this show. I believe, you know, one of 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.800 the most powerful and disturbing episodes that we've ever done, 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.400 h is the episode we did with you. And yeah, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.080 so I hope people will take the time to go 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.720 back and listen to the Doug Delosa episode because it 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.560 is really there's a lot to be learned from what 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.280 you went through and it speaks to the problem, exactly 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.200 the problem that we are facing now in Louisiana, and 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.240 that we're hoping that people who are listening will get 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:25.320 out and vote, understanding that again, you can be convicted 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.199 by a jury of your peers even though two of 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.359 them don't think you're guilty. And that's crazy. And you know, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:38.119 imagine if that was the situation across this country. The 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:43.280 rate of convictions would be astronomical. And I mean, we 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.680 already have the worst mass incarceration problem in the history 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:53.280 of the civilized world, and it would be absolutely untenable. 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.359 And the number of innocent people in prison, which is 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.120 currently estimated to be six percent across this country, right, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.000 which six percent, Well, what if you're one of them? 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.560 That's six percent, by the ways, about one hundred thousand people. 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.800 That's one hundred thousand Doug Delosos that are out there. 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.080 I know because I get letters from them, you know, 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:16.320 and it's you know, it would be again, the numbers 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:21.040 would go up dramatically, maybe even exponentially, if that were 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.520 allowed to be the case. It's also true, and why 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.840 I think this is so important that we have to 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:31.479 have a unanimous jury very everywhere is because it's a 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.439 mismatch in the courts right the you know, the fact 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.600 is we talked about the public defenders and how overmatched 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:39.360 they are, but even if you have a private attorney, 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:45.280 the government has literally almost unlimited resources and they can 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.639 they can do an awful lot that the defense can't 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.280 do by way of convincing a jury. I mean, the 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.560 juries we know that My friend Josh Dubin conducted a 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.480 study and found that your average person has an inherent 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.960 bias that if someone is on the stand, or if 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.879 someone is in the you know, is shown to them 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.399 in a lineup or anything else. The numbers are almost 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.399 eighty percent around eighty percent of how many people think 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.280 they must be guilty or they wouldn't be there in 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.919 the first place. So start with that and the burden 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:18.960 is really high to try to convince yours that you 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.120 didn't do it if you ever find yourself in that situation. Chris, 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.919 what else can you share with us about this situation 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:31.160 and the effects that it has on the justice system 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.280 in Louisiana. And let's not forget, by the way, that 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:36.760 every time a Doug de Losa or someone else is 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.919 convicted that's innocent, and we know that that happens much 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.440 more frequently when you have a non unanimous jury verdict. 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.520 The guilty guys allowed us to remain free and prey 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:47.720 on other innocent victims. 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.840 I mean, it makes us less safe right when we're 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.560 not sure, when there is when there is doubt, and 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:03.920 we're essentially prosecutors essentially able to weaponize the non unanimous 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:09.040 jury in their power because they can basically use for 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.200 they can use somebody's past against them, and they can 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.679 basically use that as a way to get people to 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:21.240 plee out because they're staring at, you know, a major 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:24.640 charge that carries a certain amount of weight, and you know, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.320 depending on the facts of the case, if you're if 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.760