1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 2: I mean. 4 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 6 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me. 7 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: Everything like everything. 8 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 9 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 10 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible? 11 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 12 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And 13 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 14 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 4: coorerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 15 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 16 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 17 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 18 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 19 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: Our system. 20 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 21 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: little ways, but it's still broken. 22 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what happened to me. 23 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: we have a very special episode that I know I 25 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: say that a lot, but this time it's really true. 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: This week's episode is a call to action because we're 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: here to talk about the non unanimous jury problem in 28 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: Louisiana and constitutional amendment too, which is on the ballot 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: next month November sixth, and it needs to be eliminated. 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: Today we have one of my favorite human beings and 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: a personal hero of mine, Doug Delosa. Doug, welcome back 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction. 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason, pleasure to be back. 34 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: And we have a guy whose name I can't pronounce 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: but I'm going to try it anyway, who is a 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: glutton for punishment. Let's just say that Chris Puscho is 37 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: here for the first time. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: Chris, thank you for having me. 39 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: Jason, and by way of introduction, both of these guys 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: are Louisiana natives, and we're here for a very specific 41 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: purpose today, which is to discuss the non unanimous jury 42 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: verdict problem in Louisiana, which is a unique and really 43 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: terrifying problem, but with any luck at all, it's about 44 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: to get fixed. And Doug, you have a very personal 45 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: take on this because you are someone who was sentenced 46 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: to life in prison after a non unanimous jury declared 47 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: you guilty, and so you I mean, I can't even 48 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: imagine what this looks like through your eyes. But once 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: you elaborate a little on that situation. 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: I was tried and convicted a second degree murder back 51 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven, and the jury verdict was eleven 52 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: to one. It was a non unanimous verdict, and from 53 00:02:54,200 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: my understanding, after quite a bit of deliberation, numerous votes, 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: at one point in time, the most people they had 55 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 2: for conviction was eight, with four people holding out saying 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: that I was not guilty. Then the bailiff comes in 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: and says, if y'all don't come in with a verdict 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: in the next couple of minutes, we're going to have 59 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: to continue this in the morning, and lo and behold, 60 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: three of the four people decided to change their minds, like, well, 61 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: you know, the majority of people feel you're guilty, We're 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 2: just going to vote guilty so we can get out 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: of here. So I was sent to prison for life 64 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: with no opportunity for parole, probation, suspension of sentence, and 65 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: the verdict even after that was non unanimous. And you know, 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: I may be opinionated and a little bit biased, but 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: with even one person saying that I'm not guilty, to me, 68 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: that's reasonable doubt. 69 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, reasonable. I mean it's eight percent of 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: the jury, basically, right, more than eight percent of the jury, 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: And it's insane. I mean in your case. First of all, 72 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: let's just reflect for a second on the idea that 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: those three jurors who slipped, you know, who flipped their 74 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: vote at the last minute, apparently felt that their evening 75 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: at home was more valuable than the rest of your life, 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: which is hard to process. I mean, I can't imagine 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: what was going through their minds. But and I know 78 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: the details of your case. Anyone who's listened to your 79 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: episode on Wrongful Conviction knows that no reasonable person could 80 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: have listened to the evidence that was presented. Even though 81 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: they framed you egregiously, they still couldn't have possibly looked 82 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: at that and said, yep, I'm absolutely sure this guy 83 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: killed his wife. Because the circumstances of your case are 84 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: as crazy as any I've heard, and I've heard hundreds 85 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: of them. So and Chris, let's turn to you, because 86 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Chris is the deputy director of the Unanimous Jury Coalition, 87 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: and you've had a lot of experience in trying to 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: do what you can to bring some justice to the 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: injustice system in Louisiana. But first, let me ask you 90 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 1: this question, because having been a public defender and everything else, 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: in probably the toughest place in the country to be 92 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: a public defender. Are there any other states? I know 93 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: the answer to this question, but are there any other 94 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: states that have a non unanimous jury verdict? 95 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: One? 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 5: Which one aside from louise and it's organ Oregon. 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: I think they're working on fixing it too. 98 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 5: Because we probably have that fixed in the spring. 99 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: Right And I'm yeah, I actually met with the governor 100 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: and spoke to her about it. I know she'd like to 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: see it fixed as well. But the but back to 102 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: this this crazy question, and certainly Oregon is a much 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: smaller problem because they have a tiny fraction of the 104 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: number of cases that go through the They probably have 105 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,119 Speaker 1: less cases than New Orleans, I would guess as a state. 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: But we can't prove that. Yeah, I can't prove that. 107 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's a guess. But how does 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: this situation even exists? Why does it exist, Chris, I mean, 109 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: what was the origin of this non unanimous jury verdict? 110 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: A protocol? 111 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: Let me just interject that while Oregon is the only 112 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: other state in the United States where they have such 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: a thing as a non unanimous jury verdict, Louisiana is 114 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 2: the only state where a person can be sentenced to 115 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: life imprisonment on less than the unanimous jury verdict. So 116 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: in Oregon, while a person can be convicted with an 117 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: eleven to one or ten to two, they can't be 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison. 119 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: And that's a tough cross to bear, I mean, and 120 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: tough it is, obviously to the light of a word 121 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: for that, But I can't imagine for you or anyone else. 122 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: And it's You're not an isolated case. And we'll talk 123 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: about that in a second. To be sitting there spending 124 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: the rest of your life in prison knowing that a 125 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: jury of your peers didn't actually vote to convict you. 126 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: They they It's called a hung jury for a reason, right, 127 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, you should have been given a retrial, 128 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: and you know, if the jury couldn't decide, then we 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: know what happens. They go home and you start all 130 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: over again. Sometime in the future. But that's obviously now 131 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: what happened. How common is it for people to be 132 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison or even life in prison in Louisiana 133 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: by a non unanimous jury. 134 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: Well, it's a horror, you know, to think that they're 135 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: members of the jury who think you're innocent, sometimes as 136 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: many as too voting not guilty. Yet you're found guilty 137 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: and sent to prison for mandatory life sentence or practical 138 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: life sentence, meaning that just because you're not sentenced to life, 139 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: if you sentenced to three hundred years, no one's going 140 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: to live to serve that. So, you know, it's disheartening 141 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: at the very least, you know, to think that you're 142 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: facing a system that the chords are stacked against you. 143 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 2: The DA is bringing marginal cases because they know they 144 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: don't need a unanimous verdict. 145 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: Right, And that's a very important point that you brought up, right, 146 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: So das are much more inclined to bring case that 147 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: they otherwise might drop because they know that they only 148 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: have to convince, you know, basically ten out of twelve. 149 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: I don't handing me do the math. You know, a 150 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: majority of the jury, you know, to convict. I mean 151 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: It's important also, Doug, to talk about the fact that, 152 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: you know, for people who are listening, going, well, this 153 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: can never happen to me. I mean, you know, like 154 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: it's not really going to affect my life. Right, you 155 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: would be somebody that would probably have a lot to 156 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: say about that because you were the farthest thing from 157 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: a career criminal. I mean, when this happened, your life 158 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: was basically a bull of cherry's right. 159 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: I don't know about a bowl of cherries, but maybe 160 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: a bowl of peaches. Yeah, you're right, Jason. I don't 161 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: think there's necessarily anything special about me. But at the 162 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: same time, I don't think I'm the typical person who 163 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: gets sentenced to life in prison in the state of 164 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: Louisiana or anywhere. I'd never been in trouble with the law, 165 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: I guess prior to me being arrested, I had one 166 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: traffic ticket twenty years earlier, and that's the extent of 167 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: my exposure to the law. I came from an upper 168 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: middle class family. No one in my family had ever 169 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: been in trouble with the law. I was happily married 170 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: with two children, and we will living the American dream 171 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. 172 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: Until it turned into the literal. 173 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: Worst turned into the American nightmare. 174 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Chris, I want to come back to you, 175 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: what is the origin of this very bizarre It was 176 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: really Unamerican protocol that is sort of ulique, unique to 177 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: Louisiana and Oregon and hopefully going to be going away 178 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: by the time the most people even hearing this podcast. 179 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 5: So, the drafters of the state Constitution in Louisiana adopted 180 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 5: in eighteen ninety eight to quote, to perpetuate the supremacy 181 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 5: of the Anglo Saxon race in Louisiana. 182 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: So in eighteen ninety eight they drafted an amendment to 183 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: the constitution. And it's hard to imagine that they were 184 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: thinking anything other than, well, if we get some people 185 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: who are of a color that's probably not the word 186 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: they were using on a jury. We want to make 187 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: sure that they don't get to screw up our you know, 188 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: our our ability to lock people up whatever we want 189 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: to more or less. And since the overwhelming majority of 190 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: the people being locked up back then and now were 191 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: people of color, it's you know, it's really hard to 192 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: imagine that they had anything other than the worst intentions 193 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: when they set this up. And when I say the worst, 194 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean purely racist intentions. Is that fair? 195 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 5: That's fair, very fair. And the intent was clear. If 196 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 5: the federal constitution required that African Americans be allowed to 197 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 5: serve on juries, the state constitution would make sure that 198 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 5: minority votes could be discounted. 199 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you this. You have many years 200 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: of experience working in really in the trenches of the 201 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: criminal justice system in New Orleans, right. 202 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 5: Not too many, but yes, I was a client advocate 203 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 5: at the Public Defender's Office. 204 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: So you've seen a lot, and we know sixty minutes 205 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: said that amazing disturbing peace on the Public Defender's office 206 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: in Louisiana a couple of years ago, where the head 207 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: of the association whatever it's called, the Public Defenders in 208 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: Louisiana or was it New Ds It was New Orleans, right, 209 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: So the head of the Public Defenders actually took a 210 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: stand and said he was going to refuse to allow 211 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: his attorneys, his public defenders, to handle any felony cases, 212 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: violent felony cases, because, as he said, we've got fifty 213 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: two public defenders who are processing twenty thousand cases a year. 214 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: So the math is simple, right, they were doing about 215 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: four hundred cases per person. And when you get deeper 216 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: into the weeds on the numbers, and you know the 217 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: courts aren't open on the weekends, that means they were 218 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: doing about a case and a half a day average, right. 219 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 5: So yeah, and just to be clear on that, what 220 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 5: happened at the public Defender's office at that point there 221 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 5: was because of staff turnover and the way things were 222 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 5: shaking out, the public defender in New Orleans began refusing 223 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 5: cases on all like major crimes, like life without parole, 224 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 5: cases that the public defenders take would take at the time, 225 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 5: public defenders would not take in that office. We're not 226 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 5: taking death penalty cases. That's what was going on when 227 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 5: the sixty minutes piece came out. 228 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: Right, And there's a simple reason for that, which is 229 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: that and the gentleman I forgot his name, but he 230 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: spoke very eloquently, and he talked about how he wasn't 231 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: going to continue to just process people into prison because 232 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, when you break it down, if you're handling 233 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: that many cases plus trying to have any kind of 234 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: a life which as a public defender and making you know, 235 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: barely above minimum wage and with debts from college or 236 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: law school and everything else. I mean, there's an amazing movie, 237 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: Gideon's Promise, that really takes you inside, you know, the 238 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: struggles that these people, many of whom are really doing, 239 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, doing the Lord's work, so to speak. It's 240 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: it's impossible for them to mount any sort of an 241 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: effective defense without having any time to prepare. Many of 242 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: them meet their clients on the day of the trial 243 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: for the first time, and then you're up there. I mean, 244 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that, you know what's going through somebody's 245 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: mind when they're like, wait, you're my attorney, And basically 246 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: a lot of them just come up and say, hey, 247 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: my advice is pleaded guilty because I can't you know, 248 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know what to do. And that's 249 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: why we have this this guilty plea problem in America 250 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: where ninety six percent of felony convictions are a result 251 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: of guilty Please, it's probably even higher down there. If 252 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: I had to guess, Doug, what's your take on this 253 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: whole situation, and what do you I mean, what can 254 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: be done? I mean, obviously people have to get out 255 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: and vote vote right, because his referendum's on the ballot 256 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: and that's what we're here to talk about now, to 257 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: be about to get out and vote and get rid 258 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: of this thing before it gets rid of you. 259 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: You're right, Jason, the education of the voters in Louisiana 260 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: is probably the most important thing. You know, I myself 261 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: haven't gone through everything that I have. It only dawned 262 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: on me a couple of years ago that a person 263 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: could be convicted in Louisiana by less than a unanimous verdict, 264 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: and that we were the only place in the United 265 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: States where I would have received a life sentence based 266 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: on an eleven to one vote. So if I didn't 267 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: realize this, I would say that the vast majority of 268 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: voters in Louisiana have no idea what the law is, right. 269 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you are a very educated guy, and you 270 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: know you would have had every reason if anyone would 271 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: know about it, you would have been person. But it's 272 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: sort of obscure aspect of the criminal justice or criminal 273 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: injustice system down there. And we know that up until 274 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: very recently, Louisiana incarcerated more Americans per capita than any 275 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: state in the country. Now Oklahoma has taken that dubious distinction, 276 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: and of course New Orleans incarcerates more Louisiana's per capita 277 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: than anywhere else in Louisiana. So you were actually right 278 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: in the epicenter of the problem, and you were processed 279 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, really processed through because it was good 280 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: for certain people's careers to get a conviction. In your case. 281 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean, your case was for people who aren't familiar 282 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: with the Doug Delosa case. I mean, your case was 283 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: a high profile case and they needed to get a 284 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: conviction and they couldn't figure it out, and you made 285 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: a convenience scapegoat. Is that about right? 286 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: That's pretty much it. The careers of the two assistant 287 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: districts attorneys and the detectives who arrested me rested on 288 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: getting a conviction, and I think they did it just 289 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: to prove that they could frame a person and get 290 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: away with it. 291 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: Well, one of the most terrifying aspects of your case 292 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: is the fact that they actually told you they were 293 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: framing you. Well, one of the arresting officers told you 294 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: they were framing you while they were framing you, right, 295 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: which is something that I think if you put that, 296 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: you know, I'm friends with John Grisham, I think I 297 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: don't have to call him and see if he even 298 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: I don't think he would even dare to put that 299 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: in a book. If someone would go, that's ridiculous. No 300 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: one's gonna believe that, right. 301 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, The arresting detective stood face to face with me, 302 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: and when I asked him why he was arresting me 303 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: when he knew I didn't do it. I won't go 304 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: into all the profanity that he used. 305 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: You can. It's a family show, but you can go ahead. 306 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: You know. I mean he looked me in the face 307 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: and almost spitting with his words and said, fuck you, 308 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: fuck your children, fuck your dead wife. And they said, 309 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: stupid bitch to die in my parish, my jurisdiction. And 310 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: I know you didn't do it, but you wanted someone arrested. 311 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: So guess what. I couldn't find the person that actually 312 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: did it, but I can frame you. 313 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: So you're rich, right, So you had the you had 314 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: the nerve to actually speak out to try to encourage 315 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: the authorities to find the person that murdered your wife, 316 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: the mother of your children, and that's really what your 317 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: crime was. And then that was that was enough to say, Okay, Well, 318 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean that wasn't the only reason right. The other 319 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: thing was a few months had gone by they didn't 320 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: have an arrest. We know that in these cases when 321 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: there's a media spotlight, a high profile case, nice neighborhood, 322 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: brutal crime, people are scared. There's a lot of pressure. 323 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: There's that much more of a chance that an innocent 324 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: person's going to get not just wrongfully convicted, but framed 325 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: as you were because of all those factors. And this 326 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: was this, I mean this when it hit all those buttons. 327 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I was told by quite a 328 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: few people, including the attorney that represented me a trial, 329 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: if I'd have just kept my mouth shut, I'd never 330 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: been arrested. They would have left the crime go unsolved. 331 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: But because I'd caused trouble for the local police department, 332 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: they were going to make trouble for me. 333 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: Wow, that's I got to just process that for a minute. 334 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: And I know your story. I mean, I've told your 335 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: story so many times, and I find sometimes when I'm 336 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: actually telling your story, I'm listening to myself tell it 337 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: and going, no, that can't be true. But I know 338 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: that it is because I know you now for how 339 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: many years It's like nine years? Yeah, and so and 340 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: we've been you know, we've told your story in great 341 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: detail on this show. I believe, you know, one of 342 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: the most powerful and disturbing episodes that we've ever done, 343 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: h is the episode we did with you. And yeah, 344 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: so I hope people will take the time to go 345 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: back and listen to the Doug Delosa episode because it 346 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: is really there's a lot to be learned from what 347 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: you went through and it speaks to the problem, exactly 348 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: the problem that we are facing now in Louisiana, and 349 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: that we're hoping that people who are listening will get 350 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: out and vote, understanding that again, you can be convicted 351 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: by a jury of your peers even though two of 352 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: them don't think you're guilty. And that's crazy. And you know, 353 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: imagine if that was the situation across this country. The 354 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: rate of convictions would be astronomical. And I mean, we 355 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: already have the worst mass incarceration problem in the history 356 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: of the civilized world, and it would be absolutely untenable. 357 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: And the number of innocent people in prison, which is 358 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: currently estimated to be six percent across this country, right, 359 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: which six percent, Well, what if you're one of them? 360 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: That's six percent, by the ways, about one hundred thousand people. 361 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: That's one hundred thousand Doug Delosos that are out there. 362 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: I know because I get letters from them, you know, 363 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: and it's you know, it would be again, the numbers 364 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: would go up dramatically, maybe even exponentially, if that were 365 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: allowed to be the case. It's also true, and why 366 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: I think this is so important that we have to 367 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: have a unanimous jury very everywhere is because it's a 368 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: mismatch in the courts right the you know, the fact 369 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: is we talked about the public defenders and how overmatched 370 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: they are, but even if you have a private attorney, 371 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: the government has literally almost unlimited resources and they can 372 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: they can do an awful lot that the defense can't 373 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: do by way of convincing a jury. I mean, the 374 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: juries we know that My friend Josh Dubin conducted a 375 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: study and found that your average person has an inherent 376 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: bias that if someone is on the stand, or if 377 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: someone is in the you know, is shown to them 378 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: in a lineup or anything else. The numbers are almost 379 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: eighty percent around eighty percent of how many people think 380 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: they must be guilty or they wouldn't be there in 381 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: the first place. So start with that and the burden 382 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: is really high to try to convince yours that you 383 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: didn't do it if you ever find yourself in that situation. Chris, 384 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: what else can you share with us about this situation 385 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: and the effects that it has on the justice system 386 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: in Louisiana. And let's not forget, by the way, that 387 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: every time a Doug de Losa or someone else is 388 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: convicted that's innocent, and we know that that happens much 389 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: more frequently when you have a non unanimous jury verdict. 390 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: The guilty guys allowed us to remain free and prey 391 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: on other innocent victims. 392 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 5: I mean, it makes us less safe right when we're 393 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 5: not sure, when there is when there is doubt, and 394 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 5: we're essentially prosecutors essentially able to weaponize the non unanimous 395 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 5: jury in their power because they can basically use for 396 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 5: they can use somebody's past against them, and they can 397 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 5: basically use that as a way to get people to 398 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 5: plee out because they're staring at, you know, a major 399 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 5: charge that carries a certain amount of weight, and you know, 400 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 5: depending on the facts of the case, if you're if 401 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 5: you're a guy who's looking at twenty years if you 402 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 5: lose this case, right, and the prosecutors can can use 403 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 5: the fact that they don't need, you know, a unanimous 404 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 5: sturity to put you in jail. 405 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: That's unpacked that for a second. So basically what you're 406 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 1: looking at is, particularly in the minority community, where you know, 407 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: we know that a lot of people have rightly or wrongly, 408 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: and in many cases wrongly, they have a prior arrest 409 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: and that means that they can stack the charges and 410 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: they can you know, hang that over your head the 411 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: idea that you're going to end up with an enhanced sentence. 412 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: Enhanced is a weird word, but because that actually sounds 413 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: like a positive word. But so that you can have 414 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: a much longer sentence based on the fact that you 415 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: have priors and now you go into the career, you know, 416 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call that category. So then and 417 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: then you add to that on top of that hammer 418 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: that they're already holding over your head. Now they can say, well, 419 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: we know they don't even have to say it out loud, 420 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: but they know that their chances of getting conviction are 421 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: greater than any other place in the country because of 422 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: the fact that they don't need to get a full 423 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: jury to convict you. So now you as a defendant 424 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: if you are made aware of this and you're sitting 425 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: there going wait a minute, So not only am I 426 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: looking at potentially spending twenty or basically all the best 427 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: years of my life in prison, but I know that 428 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: the odds are not only stacked against me because I'm 429 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: dealing with a public defender who's overworked and underpaid, and 430 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: NOBO not proper investigators that could help me, and a 431 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: system that's really just sort of you know, collapsing down 432 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: on me, and my chances of proving my innocence in 433 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: the case of unanimous jury. You know, situation would be 434 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: tough enough, but now, yeah, I mean anybody would go, well, 435 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: hell with it. I don't care if I did the 436 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: crime or not. I'm going to take the five to 437 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: six to seven years whatever I can get so I 438 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: can at least go home and see my kids, you know, 439 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: graduate from high school or god knows what. 440 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 5: Right, if you're looking at five years and you might 441 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 5: be a year into in your rest and you're just 442 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 5: waiting for trial, you're looking at getting out in a 443 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: handful of years, you know, and you may not even 444 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 5: have to do that full five depending on the type 445 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 5: of plea you take. 446 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: So it becomes a processing sit situation pretty much. And yeah, Doug, 447 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: I going to go back to how common I mean, 448 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: because I'm sure some people are listening say this can't 449 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: happen all that often, right, I mean, like, you know, 450 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: is this really something I need to be concerned with? 451 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: But that's not accurate either, right, I mean, this is 452 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: how often does this actually come into play? 453 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 2: I think it comes into play all too often? Jason. 454 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: Just in Louisiana in the past ten years, we've had 455 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: more than thirty exonerations to my knowledge, and there have 456 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 2: been over the same period of time, probably well over 457 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 2: a thousand exonerations nationwide in the past ten years, and 458 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: I think we've got a total of almost two thousand 459 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: exonerations since the inception of the Innison's project or accurate 460 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: record keeping, So it's not like it's once in a 461 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: blue moon occurrence. 462 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: But in Louisiana specifically, how often are people convicted by 463 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: a non unanimous jury? Is that a frequent. 464 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: Currents From the statistics that I've seen, roughly forty percent 465 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: of all jury verdicts or non unanimous verdicts, So four 466 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: out of ten people who go to trial, maybe even 467 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: a little bit more than four out of ten or 468 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: convicted by less than a unanimous verdict. 469 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: That's a crazy number. I mean it's and I know 470 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 1: from God from working in this field for twenty five years, 471 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: there have been way too many cases that I've seen, 472 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: even death penalty cases where it ended up in at 473 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: ten to two or eleven to one, and of course 474 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: that ended up in a retrial and ultimately an acquittal 475 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: in the cases where somebody was adequately represented by council. 476 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: And some of these cases would when you read them, 477 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: and I'm reading this incredible book, Quest for Justice Defending 478 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: the Damn by Richard Jaffey, it will blow your mind. 479 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: But in it you see cases that are I think 480 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: even you Doug with your experience, it would turn the 481 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: rest of your hair gray because some of these cases 482 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: you just sit there and go, you can't understand how 483 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: anyone could vote to convict, or how they could have 484 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: even been taking a trial in the first place, and 485 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: yet they end up in these ten to two or 486 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: eleven to one situations. But at least you have those holdouts, 487 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: and let's you know, and let's talk to for a 488 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: second about the importance of serving on a jury because 489 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: I talk about this a lot for your average person. 490 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: It's sort of one of those things in life that 491 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: you dread, right. You get that envelope in the mail 492 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: and you know what it is before you open it up, 493 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: and it's it's from the court, and it says show 494 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: up at such and such time nine in the morning. 495 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: And then your thoughts go to, oh my god, I'm 496 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: so busy right now. I got work, I got things 497 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: with my family, I got obligations, I got to How 498 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: important is it for people that are listening to show 499 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: up and when they're and Doug from your experience, terrible experience, 500 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: what should people be aware of when they do go 501 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: to serve on a jury and they end up in 502 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: a criminal trial and they hold somebody's life in their hands. 503 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: I think that the average juror are all jurors, when 504 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: they show up for jury duty and they're selected to 505 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: sit on that jury, they need to realize that their 506 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: vote counts and that they shouldn't compromise their beliefs just 507 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: to go home early or just because they're being pressured 508 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: by other members of the jury. That there's a reason 509 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: why they're on that jury, and it's not to just 510 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: acquiesce to someone who's a bully trying to tell you, 511 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: or vote guilty so we can go home, or vote innocent. 512 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: Even you know, it's up to each individual on that 513 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: jury to vote clearly what their conscience tells them to vote, 514 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: because the end result is you stand a chance to 515 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: either ruin a person's life, ruin the life of their 516 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: family and loved ones by a vote other than what 517 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: you sincerely believe, or you have the opportunity if you 518 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 2: bring back a not guilty verdict, you have the opportunity 519 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: to give that person a chance to go on with 520 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: their life and be a productive member of society. But 521 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: they can't do that if they don't vote sincerely right. 522 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: So you have to be made aware. And anyone who 523 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: listens to the show knows that there are you know 524 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: there listen, there's a lot of very decent and honorable 525 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: people in law enforcement. It's by no means an easy job. 526 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: And I'm you know, I believe in a system of laws, 527 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: and I think we need to have you know, I 528 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: know when I call nine one one, I want to 529 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: know that somebody's going to come if I'm in trouble 530 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: right there that it's funny Back in the seventies, anyone 531 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: who's all I remember there was a a T shirt 532 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: or a sticker that said, don't like don't like cops. 533 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: Next time you're in trouble, try calling a hippie, right, 534 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: And so I'm not one of those people that wants 535 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: to call it hippie. But at the same time, it's 536 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: important for everyone to stay woke and realize that in 537 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: any profession you have bad apples, and it's certainly true 538 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: in law enforcement, where there are reverse incentives in many 539 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: cases like they were in your case, to get things solved. 540 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes, you know, even sometimes even for you know, 541 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: a decent, honest person, they can get tunnel vision and 542 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: they can go ahead down a road and then start 543 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: to ignore the signs that someone's really innocent because it's 544 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: kind of gained momentum on its own. And we've seen 545 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: all different kinds of causes of wrongful conviction. So yes, 546 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: if you get called to be on a jury, go 547 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: your life is going to be okay. You know, you'll 548 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: you're you'. It seems like a big inconvenience at the time, 549 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: but it's not that bad. Go serve, realize that you're there, uh, 550 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: protecting or you know, or you're there. You're there as 551 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: a as a citizen of a society that needs you, 552 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: and you're there passing judgment on your fellow citizen, so 553 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: and protecting your community, as you said, because again, when 554 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: when you were convicted, Doug, when anyone in your situation 555 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: is convicted wrongly, the actual killer or violent criminal, whoever 556 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: they might be, remains free and goes and praise on 557 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: other innocent people, Chris, before we before we wrap up, 558 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: it's it's going to be by the time this airs 559 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: and people are listening, it's going to be almost time 560 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: to get out there and and vote or not in Louisiana. So, 561 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: with your experience of having worked in various different aspects 562 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, the criminal justice system in and 563 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: around New Orleans, how important is it for people to 564 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: vote on this referendum? And what do they need to 565 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: know going to ballot box? Is there a particular is 566 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: there a number to this? Yeah? Okay, let's give people 567 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: all the information that they need so they can make 568 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: the best decision that they can. Yeah. 569 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 5: So it is constitutional amendment to on the ballot box. 570 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 5: The language is written very well, so it's very easy 571 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 5: to understand The actual amendment says, do you support an 572 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 5: amendment to require a unanimous jury verdict in all non 573 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 5: capital felony cases for offenses that are committed on or 574 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 5: after January first, twenty nineteen. So that is the exact 575 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 5: language of it. 576 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: You just vote yes. 577 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 5: So early voting starts on October twenty third, and it 578 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 5: lasts a week, and then the actual vote will be 579 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 5: on November sixth. 580 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: So early voting starts October twenty third, the vote itself 581 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: is on November sixth. I think there's there's you know, 582 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: if you if you're having trouble figure out how to 583 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: get to the polls. I think Uber and lyft actually 584 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: offering free rides to the polls. 585 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 5: Yes, both of them are. 586 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: If you don't have the Uber or the lift app, 587 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: get it on your smartphone, they'll give you a free 588 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 1: ride to the polls. A constitutional amendment to vote yes, 589 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: because the ass you save could be your own, or 590 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: it could be someone you love. I mean, it's you know, 591 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: it's really as straightforward as that. You could find yourself 592 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: in a situation where you're facing a jury of your 593 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: peers and you're going to want to know, even if 594 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: it's just for purely your own interest that a unanimous 595 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: jury is what's going to be required to convict you. 596 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: And again, I mean, we're sitting here now with Doug Delosa, 597 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: who was sent to life in prison by a non 598 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: unanimous jury for a crime that he has proven that 599 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: he didn't commit. I mean, they should have known all 600 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: along they didn't commit it, because it was obvious. But 601 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: now he's here, after serving fourteen years in maximum security 602 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: prison to talk about this. So I mean, Doug, I 603 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: want to turn it back to you just for any 604 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: other thoughts that you have, because there's really almost no 605 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: one more qualified to speak on this subject than you. 606 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: So I appreciate you showing up here, coming all the 607 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: way up to New York to record this with us, 608 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: and you know, and and help to educate and motivate 609 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: your fellow Louisiana's i's the importance the critical nature of 610 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: this vote, which I'm you know, I'm optimistic and really 611 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: hopeful that it's going to pa. 612 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 2: I think the one final thing I'd like to note, 613 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: as Chris mentioned earlier one hundred and twenty years ago 614 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety eight, racism played a large role in 615 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: the Constitution being written. The way it was so that 616 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 2: there wasn't a need for a unanimous verdict to convict someone. 617 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: But that racism in one hundred and twenty years hasn't 618 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: disappeared in Louisiana one bit even today. Well, at my 619 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: jury in nineteen eighty seven, the state used every strike 620 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: that they had to strike blacks from my jury, even 621 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: though on Caucasian. And the reason they did that. I 622 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: could overhear the two assistant district attorneys talking at the 623 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 2: bench next to us, and they said, the last thing 624 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: we want is any fn blacks. Of course they use 625 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 2: the N word, not blacks on that jury, because blacks 626 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: will understand that he's telling the truth, where white people 627 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 2: can be convinced that's what happened to Doug Delosa. Doesn't happen, 628 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 2: and even to this day, I think statistics will prove that, 629 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: especially in Jefferson Parish, where majority of the jury pool 630 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: is white or something other than black, they still use 631 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: way too many strikes against black jewors. 632 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: And that's unconstitutional. The Supreme Court decided many years ago 633 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: that you cannot exclude people based on their race, but 634 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: it still happens, and it's another reason why it's non 635 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: unanimous jury a practice is so dangerous and so nefarious. 636 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 5: It's part of the reason why, you know, gentrification is 637 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 5: becoming such an issue and it's something that nobody thinks about, 638 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 5: especially like in the New Orleans area. Like part of 639 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 5: this is now you have some many of these residents 640 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 5: who don't necessarily understand the culture and they may not understand, 641 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 5: you know, everything about the city. And these are individuals 642 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 5: who are being selected to go on jurys and they 643 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 5: don't really get everything right. They don't get the system, 644 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 5: they don't get what's going on and how that affects 645 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 5: can affect somebody's life. You know, they just want to 646 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 5: be on a jury, or they don't want to be 647 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 5: on a jury. And so it's something that it's just 648 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 5: a byproduct of this of gentrification in New Orleans where 649 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 5: we have just a different type of jur and it's 650 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 5: not always the best thing for folks who are from 651 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,959 Speaker 5: the sit from the area. And yeah, it's it's fascinating. 652 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: So, Chris, besides the obvious, which is for people to 653 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: get up, get out vote early, starting on October twenty 654 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: third or on November sixth, of course, go to the polls, 655 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: do whatever you need to do to get there. Remember 656 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: that Uber and Lyft are offering free ride, So if 657 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: you don't have those apps, get the apps so you 658 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: can get there and you can take advantage of that 659 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: free it's totally free. If you're going to vote, people donate. 660 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: If they're hearing this and they're saying, this is outrageous, 661 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know about this. I want to do something. 662 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: Can people donate money to help with this effort to 663 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: get the vote out and to fix this terrible problem. 664 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 5: Absolutely, people can go to www Dot unanimous jury dot org. 665 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: That's www Dot unanimous jury dot org. 666 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 5: There is a donate button on the page. It goes 667 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 5: to our Act Blue, which we use to for our fundraising. 668 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: Right, so there's a donate button on the page and 669 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,959 Speaker 1: it goes right to Act Blue and it's used specifically 670 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: for fundraising for this very very critical issue. And yeah, 671 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: so go there, vote, donate, get involved. Let's fix this 672 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: problem and then we can move on to the next one, 673 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: because there are plenty of other ones for us to 674 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: deal with as we do on wrongful conviction. And Doug, 675 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, since you've been on the show before and 676 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,479 Speaker 1: you've heard it and you're very very familiar with our work. 677 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: I do the thing this hardest for me to do, 678 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: which is that I stopped talking and turn the mic 679 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: phone over to you for any final thoughts. 680 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 5: Yes on November six, we need everyone in Louisiana to 681 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,959 Speaker 5: go vote yes on Constitutional Amendment too. Let's vote yes 682 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 5: on two And if you want any more information, if 683 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 5: anyone wants to volunteer, if anyone wants to donate, you 684 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 5: go to www dot unanimus Jury dot org. 685 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: Once again, Chris Pouso, Doug Delosa, thank you for being 686 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: with us today on this very special episode of Wrongful Conviction. 687 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 5: Thank you for having us Jathon. 688 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 689 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 690 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: donor to the NSIS project and I really hope you'll 691 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 692 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org 693 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 694 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 695 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 696 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram. 697 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: At Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast 698 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 699 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one