WEBVTT - The Muzzling of Doctors with Dr. Aaron Kheriaty 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.640 The state of California has a new law known as 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.880 Assembly Bill. Under the new law, the Medical Board of 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:12.400 California could discipline physicians who disseminate information about COVID that's 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:17.520 not in line with the quote unquote contemporary scientific consensus. Basically, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.479 in a nutshell, what this means is the Medical Board 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:25.440 of California wants to muzzle doctors. If you question the authority, 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.400 if you question the consensus, you could lose your license. Now, 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.640 we've all been paying attention during COVID and we've seen 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.680 how the consensus has been wrong about everything. The consensus 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.320 has been wrong about masks, the consensus has been wrong 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.640 about lockdowns, the consensus has been wrong about vaccines. Essentially, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:48.080 this is just government censorship, the silencing of dissidents, and 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.080 isn't the point of science to question the broader narrative, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.280 to question the consensus. We're going to talk to one 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.160 doctor who is part of a small group who's suing 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.760 the state. Now so far they've successful. California judge issued 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.560 a preliminary injunction against the law, so their case will 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.080 continue to proceed. That doctor's name is Dr Aaron Karyat. 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.880 He graduated from the University of Order Dame in philosophy 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.440 and pre medical sciences. He earned his medical degree from 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.240 Georgetown University and he completed his residency training in psychiatry 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.840 at the University of California, Irvine. He he taught there 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.360 for many many years, something like fifteen years before getting 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.679 fired for speaking out against the quote unquote consensus, for 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.759 not getting vaccinated, for questioning the authority, and now he's 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.000 leading the charge on this lawsuit as well. So we're 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.400 going to talk to Dr Aaron Karyati about why he's suing, 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.240 what it means, and where this lawsuit is heading. He's next, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:57.000 Dr Aaron Karyati. I appreciate you coming on the show, sir, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:01:59.880 thank you for making the time. Oh. Absolutely, it's great 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:01.840 to be with you. Losing. So, you're one of the 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.560 five physicians who have filed a lawsuit against the state 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.560 of California over a new law assembly built. What exactly 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.120 does this law do? This law, which was introduced in 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:19.040 the California state legislature last year, passed by the state legislatures, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.800 signed by the governor, is more or less a gag 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:29.880 order on physicians. It specifies that a that a physician 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.560 who contradicts what the law calls the quote unquote current 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.639 scientific consensus, which is never defined in the law. Very 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:45.080 difficult thing to define legally. Any doctor who contradicts this 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.560 supposed consensus on things related to COVID may have hiss 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.680 or medical license subject to disciplinary action by the medcal Board. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:58.440 So especially the law empowers the medical board to discipline 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:04.840 physicians in California who contradict the really the preferred public 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.080 health narrative on COVID. And I say that it's a 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.560 gag order on physicians for a couple of reasons. One 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.920 is it tries to control the speech that doctors engage 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.800 in with their patients in the privacy of the consulting room. 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.840 And they shouldn't be a political issue. That should not 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.120 be a sort of left right liberal conservative debate. And 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.200 the reason for that is I explained when I testified 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.400 against this bill at the California State said it is 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:40.800 that I don't know anyone in California left right, progressive 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.160 conservative who wants to go to their doctor and ask 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.440 our doctor a question about COVID treatment or COVID intervention 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.240 and not have their doctor give them the doctor's honest opinion. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.600 Right nobody wants their doctor reading from a government approved 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.720 script written by the California Department of Public Health. Otherwise 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.080 you would just go on the government's website and read 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.960 what the government wanted you to know about COVID. The 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.800 reason you ask your physicians you want your physicians opinion. Now, 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.840 you may decline to follow the physicians recommendation, you may 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.640 be skeptical of the physicians judgment, go seek a second 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.359 opinion whatever. As a patient, obviously you're free in that 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.039 regard as well. But I don't know anyone who doesn't 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 want to hear what their doctor actually thinks. And so 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.719 as soon as you intervene in that and try to 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:37.880 control with physicians, say the patients, you've undermined the trust 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.240 that's necessary for the doctor patient relationship to work in 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:46.159 the first place. And ultimately this this is a problem 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:51.800 for physicians who may be unjustly disciplined or unjustly constrained 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.880 from practicing medicine according to their best judgment. But more importantly, 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.560 at least it's harmful to patients who need to be 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.800 able to trust that what their physician is telling them 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.640 is actually in the in accord with the doctor's own 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:13.720 clinical judgment and the doctor's own personalized and individualized recommendation 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:19.400 for the patients. So this is a very serious, um 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:28.080 and egregious sort of insertion of the government into the 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.640 private realm of the doctor patient relationship where the government 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.880 does not belong. But it's also harmful to the practice 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.000 of medicine as a whole that is sort of institutional level, 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.720 because it's going to undermine the trust that patients in 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.240 general have of medical professionals if they think that, you know, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:53.320 the medical professionals are constrained by laws like this. Um. 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.440 I think one of one of the reasons that the 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.479 law is vague and its definitions. This is one of 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.680 the constantitutional problems with the law that we're challenging. Is 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.520 even if the medical board only takes disciplinary action against 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.040 one or two physicians, or maybe it never, it never 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.760 applies to this law to specific cases. Nevertheless, the law 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.200 is going to have a chilling effect on this speech 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:24.280 of physicians right because precisely because it's difficult to know 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.560 whether or not whatever I'm saying may run a foul 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.320 of the law, or may run a foul of the 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.719 medical boards interpretational law. I'm just not going to say anything, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.880 or I'm just going to air on the side of 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.480 only uh, you know, saying what has been approved again 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:48.600 by some government agency or some public health bureaucrat because 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.840 the potential consequences for me as a physician or so severe. Right, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.640 it's I mean, it's one thing to lose your job, 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.600 it's another thing to lose your license, which is your 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.320 ability to practice medicine at all. When did science become 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.599 about the consensus? Isn't the whole point of science to 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.640 be able to challenge the consensus? You get new data, 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.520 you do new research, you come up with different you know, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.920 a set of facts. So when has it ever been 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.040 about the consensus to begin with? Precisely right, it's never 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.440 been about the consensus. In fact, the the idea of 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:30.840 that the science capital key capitals, delivers ready made conclusions 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:35.040 that are unassailable and can never be challenged. This is 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.120 a this is a totally mistaken view of science. Sciences 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.240 is a method or it's a set of methods, or 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.640 trying to answer really difficult, really complicated questions about the 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.880 natural world, about the workings of the human body, about 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:57.240 a rapidly evolving virus, whatever, and science advances precisely by hypothesis, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.720 by conjecture, by the gay aring of evidence, by refutation, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.720 by argumentation. If you take a group of credible scientists 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.120 that that actually practice science, you put them in a 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.440 room together, they're going to argue endlessly. I mean, that's 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.000 what scientists do. That they're going to debate about, you know, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.720 the nuances of this or that study, or that, you know, 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.920 the upshot of the research as a whole, or you know, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.280 this theory versus that theory of viral evolution or of 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.040 treatment of a respiratory illness. That's a good thing, and 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:37.840 that's precisely how science advances. So if you actually understand 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:43.480 how medical science works, it's very clear immediately that science 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.080 and censorship are totally incompatible. So that that's precisely another 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.360 problem with the laws, not just what it does to 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.880 the doctor patient relationship in a consulting room, but what 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.520 it does to the advance of medical science. Trying to 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.200 fix a any conclusion that any given point of time 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:07.120 as the final truth and it cannot be challenged and 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:12.199 it's you know, it's unassailable. That will guarantee that you're 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:17.600 going to bring the scientific enterprise to a grinding halt um. 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:24.160 So it's it's clearly a misguided law and unjust law 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:30.080 in terms of suppressing the physicians free speech rights uh 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.600 and the patient's rights to receive certain forms of information, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.400 which is another key aspect of free speech. But it 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:43.280 will also have this downstream consequence of halting the progress 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.640 of medical science and of you know, chasing out of 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.920 the state good physician scientists who are on the front 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:56.600 lines asking good questions, um, exploring novel treatments, trying to 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:01.920 improve treatment protocols. Doctors like that precisely the kind of 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.400 doctors that tend to advance the field. They're they're not 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.680 going to want to practice medicine in California. They're gonna 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.160 they're gonna jump ship. And you know, the physician shortage 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.840 shortage that we already have in this state is only 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.560 going to get worse, and in fact, it will be 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.520 some of the some of the best, most forward thinking, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.680 most most creative or innovative physicians that will be the 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.360 first to leave well. And it's also what's scary about 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.520 this is, you know, if thunder the interpretation of the 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:35.319 Medical Board of California, we've seen how the CDC has 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.559 gotten things wrong how the you know FDC, how all 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.840 these are CDC rather f d A, How all these 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:49.960 public health organizations have gotten things wrong consistently throughout COVID. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.800 So then you have the people who are essentially setting 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.640 the precedent setting you know what the consensus is that 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.560 have been wrong throughout all of It's exactly right about 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:06.000 our public health agencies. And by comparison, I mean at 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.480 least the public health agencies are populated by people with 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.839 pH d s and people with supposedly some level of expertise. Um. 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:17.959 There may be a bunch of incompetent pH d s, 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.959 or they may have become politicized or weaponized in various ways. 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.040 But if you look at the Medical Board, UM, less 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.280 than half of the members of the Medical Board are physicians. 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:35.319 Most of the non physicians are lawyers. The the chair 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.400 of the Medical Board is a professional life coach, um, 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:44.880 you know, not someone that is competent at judging the 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:50.160 current state of science on any given medical question. And 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.920 the members of the Medical Board are directly appointed by 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:58.400 the governor. So this is a This is an entity 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.320 that can very easily and I would argue, has become 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:09.360 weaponized and politicized. UM and tasked with doing things that 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.679 the Medical Board was never set up to do. The 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:18.600 Medical Board was set up to, you know, basically get 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:24.160 rid of physician cracks and quacks and cranks who are 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:31.480 clearly doing engaged in unethical, fraudulent, harmful behavior, you know, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.400 abusing the doctor patient relationship in various ways, or defrauding 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:39.360 the insurance companies this sort of thing. Um, you know, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.760 what to do about those doctors who received multiple complaints 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:50.440 from from patients about clearly substandard care, clearly unethical or 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.120 illegal practices. That's that's what the Medical Board was set 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.800 up for. The Medical Board is should never be empowered 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:04.960 to a judy adjudicate complicated scientific questions. Um, they don't 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.480 possess the competence to do that. And they will be 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.440 operating under pressure from the state, which sets them up 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.960 and empowers them to do the state's bidding and to 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.480 become the long arm of a kind of state censorship regime. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:26.320 And that's a that's very very dangerous for UH, an 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:31.080 agency that had, you know, had really modest task of 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:36.400 you know, monitoring the most egregious violations that you know, 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.960 a few bad apples within the profession which are always 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.679 going to have you know, are are engaged in and 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.080 you know now they're being asked to take sides in 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:53.640 complicated debates about you know, a novel virus, and you know, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.520 the the idea that they would they would do any 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.840 better than our public health agencies have done. Um is 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.640 you know it's very far fetched. You obviously you've eloquently 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.720 laid out the justification against this law. I wholeheartedly agree 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.480 with you. Quick commercial break more with Dr Aaron Karyat 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.880 why did you decide that, you know what, I'm stepping up, 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:23.800 I'm going to be a part of this lawsuit. I've 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.280 got to do more here. Number One, I thought that 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.680 I could be among the physicians that was targeted by 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.600 such a law. So if I wanted to continue to 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.480 live and practice medicine in California, I ought to do 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:43.640 something about this uma. From from early on in the pandemic, 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:48.440 I was one of the doctors that would publicly challenge 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:55.720 the current scientific consensus, and very often I was. I 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.840 was smeared or punished simply for being six months nine 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.480 ahead of the curve and for seeing what was coming 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.080 down the pike before it was widely acknowledged by the public. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:14.120 Health agencies or by the profession as a whole. And so, 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.920 you know, I could imagine that once a lot like 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:23.560 this was in place, that you know, it may they 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.600 have a chilling effect on my own ability to continue 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:33.120 to comment on public health policy related to COVID. So 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.840 my own personal story. I was at the University of California, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:41.160 Irvine for fifteen years, where I was a full professor 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.120 in the School of Medicine and directed the medical ethics 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:51.800 program there. And when the university institute of their vaccine mandate, 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.400 I had already published a piece in the Wall Street 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.760 Journal arguing that the university of a university of actually 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.760 mandates were unethical. They violated the principle of informed consent, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.800 enshrined first into Nuremberg Code and then throughout twentieth century 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:14.240 medical ethics and federal law. And so I challenged the 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.640 vaccine mandate in federal court, and the university fired me 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.000 as a consequence of that. About a year after I 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:25.800 was fired, the CDC finally came around and publicly acknowledged 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.040 the central argument that I was making in that case, 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.520 which was that, uh, you know, we shouldn't be discriminated 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.640 between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. CDC gave two reasons, 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:42.680 which were first articulated in my lawsuit a year prior. 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.800 Number one, natural immunity after infection, which I had, was 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.800 at least as robust, indeed more robust than the vaccine 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:58.880 induced community. And number two, um, the vaccines did not 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:04.960 stop in fact and and transmission um. And both of 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.600 these facts were known if you were paying close attention 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:16.320 to the research literature. We're known when I was trying 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.919 to make this case publicly end in the federal courts, 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.240 But it took the CDC a year to publicly acknowledge them. 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:28.920 Didn't happen until So, I mean, that's just one example 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.480 I could I could name others, other examples where I 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.359 and other quote unquote dissident physicians who are challenging the 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.480 COVID narrative that was being pushed were censored or silenced, 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:51.960 were punished simply for articulating things that that you know, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:57.040 a year later, six months later, we're widely acknowledged by 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.000 everyone to be true. So that that's just that's isn't 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.159 you know? My own personal story which you could be 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:09.080 repeated many many times over by other doctors and nurses 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:16.000 and citizens. Just paying close attention is a good illustration 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.160 of precisely what we talked about a few minutes ago 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:23.439 with how science proceeds. You you challenge science advance is 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.399 precisely when it when a consensus, when what everyone thinks 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:32.159 they know is challenged, and then uh, you know, subjected 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:38.119 to critical scrutiny and um and subjected to further investigation 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.680 and the gathering of evidence and so forth. UM. And 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:49.200 so you know, the law like this is in my view, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.760 essentially a power grab, right because it's if there if 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.479 there are public health officials or if there are medical 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:04.600 institutions who simply don't like the or supposed authority questioned, um, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.080 and that if they declare something to be the case, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.840 and you know, mandate that everyone fall in line, that 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.439 people should just shut up and listen. Um. Well, you 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.840 know these are people that um, that may realize, look, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.440 my my arguments may not succeed on their own merits. 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.440 They may not succeed if they're subjected to scientific scrutiny. 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.080 And you know, for a real doctor, real scientist, that's okay, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.199 you welcome that. You know, I'm open to revising my 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.360 opinion in the face of new evidence. There's nothing wrong 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.040 with that. In fact, that's a good thing. But for 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.800 people who will who will never publicly admit that they 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:48.119 may have been wrong. Uh, the censorship option, or to 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:52.280 punish my adversaries option seems like a you know, a 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.919 good way, maybe a shortcut, to maintain their power and 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.960 maintain their stance of a kind of authority that can't 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.040 be questioned. And this, you know, this is this is uh, 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.439 you know, this starts to smell of a of a 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:13.560 kind of Orwellian sort of totalitarian flavor to it. I 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.480 faced this and in the media a little bit because 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.159 I was very outspoken about not getting the vaccine. But 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.360 I can't imagine someone like you, who you know, as 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.159 you you talked about you were at the University of California, 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.480 Irvine for for fifteen years. My understanding is that the 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:31.919 school Medicine deans had asked you at one point to 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.800 give the white coat ceremony keynote addressed incoming medical students. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.280 They told you that you're the best lecture in the 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.720 medical school. You're leaned on heavily for a variety of 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:46.239 leadership roles at the school. So how crazy, because I 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.920 can't imagine experiencing what I did in the media, which 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.840 isn't even close to to what you went through. And 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.320 then also being a medical professional that you are, how 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.439 wild has this been to see probably people that you know, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.840 you previously respected, you, you thought were critical thinkers, to 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:07.400 just turn into you know, like these programmed bots almost yeah, 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:14.480 programmed bots and informants, uh, you know, on their colleagues. 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:22.119 It was surreal. It was demoralizing. Medicine at its best 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:27.800 has a tradition of self scrutiny and internal criticism can 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.680 try to make ourselves better. There's a there's a tradition 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.080 in academic medicine. We call it the eminem conference Morbidity 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.879 and Mortality conference. It's, you know, I take a case 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.760 that I've treated where maybe the outcome wasn't as good 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:42.320 as I would have hoped for, maybe there was a 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.480 bad outcome in the case the patient diet or something 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.520 like that, and I present the case in detail to 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.439 my colleagues. You know, I stand up in front of 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.520 the other doctors in my department and they then are 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.959 permitted to play Monday morning quarterback and second, guess, you know, 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:00.960 everything I did well, Maybe the case would have gone 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:02.520 better if you did this or maybe you could have 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.119 spotted that earlier, Maybe you should have run this test. 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.959 It's hard to subject yourself to that kind of critical scrutiny, 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.119 especially you know, from people who have the benefit of hindsight, 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.359 which is usually but doctors do that. We do that willingly, because, 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.919 you know, because we had a huge responsibility, because we 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:24.480 want to get better, and ultimately, you know, for the 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:26.720 sake of our patients, so that you know, if we've 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:30.200 made mistakes or done things that are suboptimal, we can 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.280 we can try to avoid that in the future. All 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.800 of that seemed to come to a grinding hall when 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.720 it came to COVID. There was none of that um 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.280 There was none of that self scrutiny and sort of 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.760 internal critique. There was none of the back and forth 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.639 parsing out of data and arguing about data that that 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:57.720 again is a central feature of academic medicine at its best. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.119 Another monthly conference we have his journal club. You just 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:02.879 take one article and you've parted it out, and you 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.159 talk about the strengths and weaknesses and the methods, and 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.439 you know, just just one study can be subjected to 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:13.840 a lot of debate because science is complicated. But suddenly 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:18.879 COVID comes out, and there are these sort of anointed 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:23.920 public health talking heads on TV that we are supposed 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:29.159 to take as infallible. And never mind that Anthony Fauci, 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:33.320 for example, is probably not treated a patient since he 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.760 was in residency many many decades ago. He has not 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:42.960 run an experiment at the bench for many decades. Um. 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.560 You know, he's an administrator, he's a bureaucrat. But if 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:51.320 you were to challenge his public health recommendations, who were 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:57.439 immediately accused of killing Grandma or being selfish or you know, 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.400 putting the economy ahead of saving the times or whatever. 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:07.320 So in a climate of fear, we were suddenly subjected 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:13.840 to a situation in which everyone was afraid to say 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:19.320 what they actually thought. Um. Everyone was afraid even internally 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:27.040 to ask critical questions. UM. And it was it was 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:32.520 shocking to me to see how quickly medicine fell in 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:39.440 line with that UM, and how even when some doctors 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:44.880 started asking questions and started to once again I think 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:48.600 more critically, many of them did not feel empowered to 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:51.199 speak out publicly out of fear of losing their jobs. 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.400 So I had many doctors reaching out to me privately saying, hey, 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:57.919 love what you're doing. Thanks for speaking out. You know, 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:01.640 sorry you got sacked by the unit versity. But keep 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:05.320 doing what you're doing, you know, cheerleading. Um. Because I 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.360 feel like I can't I feel like I can't speak out, 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:10.640 or I can't ask questions, or all suffer the same 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:13.640 thing that you suffer. Then you know, I understand that. 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:20.280 I understand that it's kind of self protective um um 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:24.280 uh strategy to try to maintain your career or your job. 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.280 Those consequences are very real, and you know, doctors have 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:32.280 responsibilities to their family and so forth. But nevertheless, you know, 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.359 at a certain point, uh, you know, I think any 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.600 professional has to draw a line in the sand and say, 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:40.960 you know, as a position, if I'm if I'm doing 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.760 things that I think are harmful to patients, then you know, 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:46.160 then I have to speak up, even if it's going 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.040 to cost me as a journalist, if if I feel 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:54.639 like I'm just parenting lives that I'm being told to repeat. Um, 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:56.760 you know, for the state of my own integrity, even 0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.840 if I may lose my position at the at the media, 0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:02.439 I have to speak out. I have to do something. 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:06.480 I think all professionals should ask themselves. You know, where 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:09.879 is my line? If you don't have one, you should 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:14.000 probably ask yourself, you know, why you're doing what you're doing, 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:17.080 and you know what, uh, what is it all about 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:23.880 for you? Professionally? Quick commercial breaks? Stay with us? Having 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.000 these conversations with my parents and they're like, well, you 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:27.879 could get fired, you know, have you thought about that? 0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.080 And I'm like, I just you know, I gotta do 0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:32.280 it and just see, you know, like pray to God. 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:34.800 I don't. But you know, it's it's this is wrong, 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:37.800 And what's the point of me in this role doing 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.119 this job. If I don't speak out and I don't 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:43.280 have conviction, you know, and I'm not rooted anything, then 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:45.880 why why am I? I don't deserve this job? Then, 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:48.399 you know, to your to your point, uh, you know, 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:54.040 a California judge issued a preliminary injunction against this law. 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:57.879 Where do you think this case is heading? You know, 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:00.960 what's the timeline? What should people look for as this 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:05.040 moves forward? So the preliminary injunction is essentially the court 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:09.480 saying that we are going to halt the implementation and 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:13.040 application of the law while the case is being heard. 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:17.080 So the law went into effect January one, Unfortunately, we 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.960 couldn't get our hearing scheduled before January one, but we 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:23.800 managed a couple of weeks into January to get that 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:27.119 hearing for the preliminary injunction and the court granted it. 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.960 So the law went into effect for a few weeks. Um. 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:33.880 It was never applied to my knowledge, to any specific cases. Uh. 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:37.600 And now the law is is on hold until the 0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:40.720 court makes a final ruling. That's a very very good 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:44.200