1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: Me your Girl Danielle Moody pre recording from the Home 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Bunker on Long Island. Folks. As I've said, I've taken 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: a few days off, but have left you with a 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: few pre recorded episodes, and I'm excited to bring back 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to wokfkf's esteemed producer Andrew Marsillo to discuss how the 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: media has been coming more and more conservative. We've watched 8 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: it over the entire election cycle, but we've watched it 9 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: over the last nine years and have seen so many 10 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: different instances where the lies that we've been told about 11 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: the liberal media, the liberal media doesn't exist. The liberal 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: media is run by a bunch of very wealthy Republicans 13 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: who care about access and who care about ads more 14 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: than they care about any shred of our democracy. We 15 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: saw that with the Washington Post, we saw that with 16 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the La Times, and we will now in a Trump world, 17 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: continue to see that more and more. I don't know 18 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: how the free press survives Donald Trump, and I don't 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: know if it will, But what we do know is 20 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: that the trends have been going towards the right for 21 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: quite some time, so This is a conversation that I 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: get into with Andrew coming up next, Folks, I am 23 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: very happy to welcome back to the front of the 24 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: mic ahem, which is my fantastic producer Andrew Marcello, who 25 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: you've heard from over the course of the last couple 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: of months, getting us an insight into how the white 27 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: male in cell aggression has been seated and built through 28 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: the gaming industry. And now we're turning our attention to 29 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: the rise in conservativism in pop culture as kind of 30 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: a backlash to representation, to sexual orientation, gender diversity, all 31 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: of these things that have grown over the last decade plus. 32 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: We are now seeing a considerable pushback, both in policy 33 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: and in pop culture. Andrew, talk to us about specifically 34 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: what you have been seeing and noticing that kind of 35 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: over the last four years, eight years that corresponds in 36 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: pop culture to where we are seeing our politics drive 37 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: off a cliff towards. 38 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: Thanks for that introduction. You're welcome, nobody. I appreciate you 39 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: welcoming me back. It's hard for me to find a 40 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: place to start, but I think I'll start where we're 41 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: talking about pop culture and the thing that really strikes 42 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: me when I think about this in my mind is 43 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: the movies, and specifically Hollywood and blockbuster movies. The world 44 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 2: of blockbuster films if you look back to the mid 45 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: twenty tens and the type of super mainstream movies being released. 46 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: The most successful among the most successful films being released, 47 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: Star Wars The Force Awakens came out in twenty fifteen 48 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: and grossed over two billion dollars worldwide, and I feel 49 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: that Star Wars The Force Awakens is notable, not just 50 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: because it would have done money anyway because it's Star Wars, 51 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: but that's part of the point that I'm going to 52 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: get to. Star Wars The Force Awakens introduced a new 53 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: blackmail protagonist as well as a new woman protagonists, and 54 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: the movie was successful on the back of that. The sequel, 55 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: Star Wars The Last Jedi didn't do as well as 56 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: a sequel, but it still grossed over a billion dollars 57 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: worldwide and peaked at the number nine best selling, like 58 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: the highest grossing movie of all time. So there was 59 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: a minor backlash, a relatively minor backlash for people who 60 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 2: saw The Force Awakens and went, WHOA, The main character 61 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: isn't a white man anymore. It's a black Man and 62 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: a White Woman. Oh no, but the majority of people 63 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: still like Star Wars. Star Wars is still very popular 64 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: and very profitable, and the subsequent movies, while not performing 65 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: as well as the first Star Wars movie in ten years, 66 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: still did very well and still have very much generated 67 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: a profit and landed on the highest grossing films of 68 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: all time. Then you look at Marvel and Disney as 69 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: a whole, but you really look because Disney also owned 70 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: Star Wars, and I think Disney is such a dominant 71 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: cultural force, and I think actually a lot of my 72 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: argument here is going to come around the Walt Disney Corporation. 73 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 2: And there's a separate discussion to be had as should 74 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: one studio and company really be this dominant in our 75 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: cultural landscape. But that's not the conversation we're having right 76 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: now anyway. Black Panther, remember by Panther twenty eighteen. A 77 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: couple of years later. Yes, So we had Wonder Woman 78 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: from DC and Warner Brothers, and that was a minor success. 79 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: It didn't top a billion dollars, but it did almost 80 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: as well as Batman versus Superman, and considering wonder Woman 81 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: had never had a movie before, considering it was a 82 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: woman led film, which in twenty seventeen, if you remember, 83 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: was oh so risky, which is hard to even think about. 84 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: You know, that was only six years before Barbie came out. 85 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: And I don't think when Barbie came out anyone was 86 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: saying like, oh my god, a movie led by a woman. 87 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: And yet I'm bouncing around, But like I think you're 88 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: starting to get what I'm getting at, which is, you know, 89 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: Barbie made almost one and a half billion dollars worldwide, 90 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: Black Panther made over a billion dollars worldwide, Captain Marvel 91 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: made over a billion dollars worldwide. So these movies released 92 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: largely in the late twenty tens. And then you have Barbie, 93 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 2: which is sort of a vestigial production that took a 94 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: long time from production to actually getting in theaters. Barbie 95 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: started entering production in twenty eighteen. You have all these 96 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: movies and productions from the late twenty tens where it's 97 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: putting forward more representation for non white people and also 98 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: for women, yes, particularly white women, but there was more 99 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: than just white men leading the movies, on the posters, 100 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: on the big marquee top name, and these things generated money. 101 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: So what happened. So what happened? 102 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: You like, I don't I think that you lay out 103 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: such a good case. We have all of these films 104 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: that you've named that made extraordinary money at the box office. 105 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: They also brought in a lot of conversation and controversy 106 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: on social media as they were being developed, as people 107 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: are watching them. Barbie, I think probably the biggest in 108 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: terms of the right wing saying that young men shouldn't 109 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: watch this. It's anti man. This is a man hating movie, 110 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of spewing the misogyny that they were talking about 111 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: me in the movie that was laid out very clearly 112 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: in the movie, and then you see it playing out 113 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: in real life. And I'm just like, every time that 114 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: there is a bit of progress, whether it's for queer people, 115 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: for black people, for women, for non binary folks, anytime 116 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: there is progress there, it is always met with backlash. 117 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: But this backlash that we're experiencing also is connected to 118 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: online bulok, which we talked about right The online and 119 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: bullying to me is like not even that, it's like 120 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: a euphemism to what you actually explained to us has 121 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: taken place. 122 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: But think about how a bully succeeds a bully succeeds 123 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: in an environment where they're acting out their behavior. Everyone 124 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: can see them acting out their behavior, and there's not 125 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: any sort of firm restriction of that behavior. Bullies only 126 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: flourish in an environment where bullies are allowed to flourish 127 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: and not in some way suppressed or had their behavior corrected. 128 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, I think we're now living in a sort 129 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: of a culture where we're experiencing the consequences of bullies 130 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: not being silenced. And it sounds kind of radical as 131 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 2: a person to be like, we need to silence the 132 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: bullies in society, but like even just telling someone to 133 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: shut the fuck up is silencing them. And I think 134 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: enough of these people who whine about out women in 135 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: movies and black people in movies and seeing anything but 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: a white person, like those feel like the dominant voices now, 137 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: and that's scary, at least a dominant enough force where 138 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: it's harder now to tell one person to shut the 139 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: fuck up when there is half the room it seems 140 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: to be that person. 141 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: That is the distortion, right, Like, that's the distortion and 142 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: the echo chamber that the right wing has created on 143 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: social media, on these platforms where we're not like I 144 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: was actually saying this earlier today. I was saying, you know, 145 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not sure if fifty percent of 146 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: the population is actually magified and racist and as insane 147 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: as the media and social media is telling me, or 148 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: if it's just what I'm being fed, if it's just 149 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: the algorithm that I'm being fed to distort me from reality. 150 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: And so I say the same thing, just like in 151 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: terms of what you just offered. It's like, is the 152 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: pushback seeming like it's coming from thousands millions, coming from everywhere? 153 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: Is that actually true? Or is this like the Wizard 154 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: of Oz and the man behind the curtain is fucking 155 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg, depending on what fucking platform 156 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: you're on. 157 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: I think there's two things there for me. And I 158 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: was already thinking about the summer of twenty twenty three, 159 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: because we've talked about this in private, and how the 160 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 2: conservative backlash to things in the summer of twenty twenty three, 161 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: the conservative backlash to non white male representation as well 162 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: as the backlash to LGBTQ representation, it seemed to really 163 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: take hold among corporations. More so in the summer of 164 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, and you know, something demonstrable to that, 165 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: so that people listening aren't just like, well, you feel 166 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: that way, like, for example, companies starting to carry less 167 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: pride merchandise starting last year and continuing into this year. 168 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: You know, as much as we talked about corporate pride it, 169 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: I feel that it's very palpable that there's less of 170 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: that in the last two years. And I also am 171 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: thinking about when Elon Musk took over Twitter. I know, 172 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: we still call it Twitter. He has distorted it into 173 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: literally a different site, even though it carries the same functions. 174 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: And I think that does distort our perception because there 175 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: is someone with a lot of money and unfortunately a 176 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: lot of power and influence distorting the conversation and amplifying 177 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: certain voices over other voices. But then on the flip 178 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: side of that, to me, there is the idea that 179 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: perception is reality. And I've read reports and again going 180 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: back to Disney, Pete Doctor, who has directed some of 181 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: Pixar's most successful films and now holds a higher creative 182 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: position in Pixar, had said that they want to focus 183 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: on quote universal stories, and part of that, apparently, according 184 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: to them, came from a same sex kiss in the 185 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: movie light Year, which did do poorly at the box office. 186 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: But light Year was not a movie. It was a 187 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: buzz light Year movie. It was a buzz light Year 188 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: spin off movie starring Chris Evans who has star power 189 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: and name pol The same sex kiss was not really 190 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: used to promote the film. It was a very brief 191 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 2: scene in the film, and there's no demonstrable evidence that 192 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: the public has seen that a brief seconds long fame 193 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: sex kiss between two women in the background of an 194 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 2: animated film is what caused audiences to reject that film 195 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: and not want to see it in the theater and 196 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: latching on to that as well. If you remember, Pixar 197 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: had recently released films such as Turning Red, which was 198 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: about a Vietnamese Canadian girl, and Soul, which was about 199 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: a black man teacher. So Pixar making these comments about 200 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: what constitute universal stories when they're promoting a movie about 201 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 2: a white girl, is it struck a lot of people 202 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: a certain way? And I think it's this part of it, 203 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: is this environment that it struck people in because people 204 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: can feel, either consciously or not that representation in the 205 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: mainstream media space and the Hollywood space is becoming more regressive. 206 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: There was also a report recently about Disney doing test 207 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: screenings for some of their films with essentially groups that 208 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: I just described in my last two podcast appearances, the 209 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: aggrieved white male audience who rejects anything that isn't white 210 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 2: male representation. So when you hold test screenings with this specific, 211 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 2: literal minority group of people and base your editing decisions 212 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: and base your production decisions around a bunch of people 213 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: in a room going. 214 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: Like any it's not late men, I want to see 215 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: myself on the screen and nothing else, then. 216 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: That's what you're going to get. And the fact of 217 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: the matter is, now we have these studios, and we're 218 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: aware of the fact that these studios are catering to 219 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 2: this small, loud minority of people who are boosted by 220 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: people like as we previously discussed, Steve Bannon and Elon Musk. 221 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: But what these businesses are going to find, because all 222 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: they care about at the end of the day is 223 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: making money for their CEOs and their shareholders, right, And 224 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: what they're going to find is what every fucking Harvard 225 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: Business Review article around diversity has found, which is that 226 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: diversity is actually great for your bottom line that targeting 227 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: and creating content for one particular group as opposed to 228 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: all groups isn't going to serve you in the long term. 229 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: So do you see that throughout history? Again, we have 230 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: these moments, these touch points where we're seeing progress, right, 231 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: whether we see it in you know, in representation, in 232 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: our elected officials, you see it, you know on the screen. 233 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: There is always pushback, But at the end of the day, 234 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: to me, business has always seemed to move forward because 235 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the money is what's 236 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: doing the talking. So their progress continues to move forward. 237 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: But are you saying that you don't think that that's 238 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: going to be the case. 239 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: That's what's raising the red flag for me. And I 240 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: think that's part of why I'm focusing so much on 241 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: Disney and why I started with those box office grosses, 242 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: because you have these franchises like Star Wars and Marvel, 243 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: and I know Pixar isn't a franchise, but at the 244 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: same time, when Pixar releases a movie, people regard it 245 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: as a Pixar film, so kind of in a way, 246 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: like a twenty four, they're a brand. So all these 247 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: sub brands for Disney were profitable, demonstrably so with broader 248 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: represent and yet somehow these counter cultural forces who are 249 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: against representation and are for regression. I do I fear, 250 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: I will say, mm hmm. I fear that those voices 251 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: have taken hold at those companies. And I don't want 252 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: to point fingers because I don't know what's in people's hearts. 253 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: I feel like, though there are some people high up 254 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: at these companies who are sympathetic to those kind of attitudes, 255 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: and that that level of sympathy actually does blindside these 256 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: probably men again don't want to assume, but it blindsides 257 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: them to their profit making. And I mean that doesn't 258 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: scare me because I no longer own stock in Disney 259 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: mm hmm. But that scares me because money is power 260 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: in this society. And I do remember, like when Wonder 261 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: Woman's coming out, there was a lot of from people 262 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: who were happy about just the movie's existence of like, oh, 263 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: we can have a superhero that isn't a man in movies. 264 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 2: This is where it was at in twenty seventeen if 265 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 2: you don't remember, uh, And it was like you got 266 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: to show up for this movie, you got to support 267 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: this movie. I think part of why Black Panther did 268 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: so well, not just because it had a phenomenal marketing 269 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: campaign and a lot of star power behind it, but 270 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 2: there was also a groundswell of like within I observed 271 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: as a white person, within the black community, there was 272 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: a groundswell of like, well, we got to support this movie. 273 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: This is we've got a movie, this is our time, 274 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: We've got to go support it. So people are talking 275 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: with their money. Marginalized people who are getting represented talk 276 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: with their money, and white people who like the properties 277 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: and the majority of audiences are not. I really do 278 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: believe the majority of white audiences are not this regressive 279 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: minded and are happy to watch movies that aren't just 280 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: themselves reflected because at their core, they still love good 281 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 2: stories and all that other stuff that you see at 282 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: the movies and spectacle and every anything else. So I 283 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: hate to like counter your optimism, but the part of 284 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 2: why I wanted to have this conversation is because I 285 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: am pessimistic about it. I'm pessimist, and maybe it'll change 286 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 2: when when the box office results come in, and if 287 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: an entire slate of all white Marvel movies and all 288 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: white Star Wars movies and all white Pixar movies come 289 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: back in two three years, because that's how long stuff 290 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: moves in Hollywood. And we see that that didn't do well, 291 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 2: and that, you know, Captain America, Brave New World with 292 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: Anthony Mackie did better than whatever thing they dredge back 293 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: up Robert Downey Junior from because to replace Jonathan Majors, 294 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: who should have been replaced. But like that, just look 295 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: at that alone. They were building up Jonathan Majors to 296 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 2: be their next big villain. He gets canceled again, rightfully, 297 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: so and they say, well, you know what, we'll just 298 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: go back to the style here. Yeah, yep, yeah, you know. 299 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: I like to have optimism around this because I think 300 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: that there have been, you know, all of the films 301 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: that you've named, and there are more that have centered 302 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: the stories and lived experiences of people of color. And 303 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: you see that whenever that happens, this small set of 304 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: white folks like lose their mind. Right. I can remember 305 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: the Cheerios commercial with the interracial couple several years ago 306 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: that caused like a fucking frenzy, do you know. 307 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: And so there was that beer commercial with oh my god, 308 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: I forget her name, but like that was part I 309 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: think of the backlash in the summer of twenty twenty three. 310 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: Right, So I think that it's what is important. I 311 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: think the message that you say that you're sending is 312 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: that people need to show up to support these films 313 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: that feature diverse characters, people of color as like the 314 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: main characters, in order to continue to send the message, 315 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: because without that, the default will always be white men. 316 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: The default will always be to return to what has 317 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: always that, what has always been. And I don't understand 318 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: how you do that when the demographics of this country 319 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: and like the world continue to get increasingly black and browner. 320 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: So I'm not I'm not quite sure like how that 321 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: ends up being good for your bottom line. Like taking 322 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: something like it would have been one thing, I guess, 323 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: and this is and I want to give you your 324 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: your final thoughts. It would be one thing if you 325 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: had just continued on the same kind of white supremacist 326 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: path of there being no disruption at all in the 327 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: content that we see on television on streaming with introductions 328 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: of people of characters and stories focused on communities of color. 329 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: If that had always been the case, it's just been white. 330 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: But to inject it and then to go back I 331 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: don't know if people still show up, even if they 332 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: are huge fans of a particular franchise, because I think 333 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: that you're signaling to them that you don't see them 334 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: and you don't care about them. Those are my thoughts, 335 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: what say you? 336 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: And thinking about that, I had been looking at, you 337 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: know again, the highest grossing movies and the number two 338 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: highest grossing movie of all time, which was number one 339 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 2: until they put Avatar back in theaters was Avengers Endgame, 340 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: And part of the whole hype cycle around the final 341 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 2: Avengers movie was the release of movies such as Black 342 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: Panther and Captain Marvel. So you watch those movies as 343 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 2: a fan with the knowledge in your mind that, Okay, 344 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 2: the next Avengers movie, Black Panther's going to have a 345 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: big role, Captain Marvel's going to have a big role. 346 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: And so at least a percentage of the people who 347 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: went to see Avengers Endgame went to see it because 348 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: they were that they were going to see Black Panther 349 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: again and see Captain Marvel again. So you regress from 350 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: that and you release an Avengers movie that's whitey whitey 351 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: white again. We'll see what happens. Will the same amount 352 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: of people show up. I don't know, will Disney go, 353 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: oh crap, we were making more money when we were 354 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: putting out diverse productions. I guess we'll see. One more 355 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: thing that I want to just consider thinking about when 356 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: this is going to air, is I do have a 357 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: concern in my mind that some of this is going 358 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: to be influenced by the election. I think some of 359 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: the people who hold power and wealth and influence at 360 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: the top may see an election of Kamala Harris. A 361 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: nation electing Kamala Harris may take that differently than a 362 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: nation affirming Donald Trump and affirming the legitimacy and continue 363 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: political existence and continued lack of criminal consequence for Donald Trump. 364 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: So I think that is something that's going to have 365 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: influence over things as well. And again I've remarked, Hollywood 366 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: moves slowly. We won't see the results from this manifest 367 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: for another two three years, I believe, but I'm hoping 368 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: my the best I can hope for is that this 369 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: is a rut in our road toward progress, at least 370 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 2: in the mainstream media space, at least in the Hollywood space, 371 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: because the last two years have been very disheartening. 372 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, we will leave it there today. Andrew, 373 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: thank you so much for making the time to kind 374 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: of walk us through this on Woke AF because the 375 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: reverberations of like this, anti DEI, anti diversity, anti blackness, 376 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: anti queerness doesn't just stay in our poll's see. It 377 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: spills over into everything and it's really important for us 378 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: to keep an eye. 379 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: Out on it. So we appreciate you. Thank you very much. 380 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on woke 381 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: a f as always, Power to the people and to 382 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.