Speaker 1: At this point, if you're a person who surrounded yourself
Speaker 1: with Trump, you've blown through January sixth, You've blown through
Speaker 1: and getting indicted.
Speaker 2: You've blown through a lot.
Speaker 1: The people around him now are much more and I
Speaker 1: know this even from our reporters who deal with them
Speaker 1: day to day, are much more unified than the first term,
Speaker 1: where he was cobbling together a team of rivals based
Speaker 1: off of an election they did not think they were
Speaker 1: going to win.
Speaker 2: Now that's much different. In this time around. They have
Speaker 2: been planning about what they would do when they would
Speaker 2: come back to Valor.
Speaker 3: Hi. Everyone, I'm Kittie Couric and this is Next Question.
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of Next Question.
Speaker 3: So if you want to know what Americans are really thinking,
Speaker 3: not just what the polls are saying or what coastal
Speaker 3: columnists are opining, you have to talk to voters face
Speaker 3: to face, travel to where they are, and find places
Speaker 3: where they are gained to talk. That is exactly what
Speaker 3: Asteed Herndon does. He is a national politics reporter for
Speaker 3: the New York Times who makes it his business to
Speaker 3: hear what voters are thinking. How are they feeling about
Speaker 3: Donald Trump? What are they thinking? About the Democratic Party today,
Speaker 3: and all this made me wonder, how does the Stead
Speaker 3: get so many people to open up to him and
Speaker 3: tell him what they're thinking? A Steed Herndon, Great to
Speaker 3: see you again.
Speaker 2: Great to see you also, thank you for having meus.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, we're so happy you're here. And I guess, Astead,
Speaker 3: I feel like you have officially become the man on
Speaker 3: the street, a correspondent for the New York Times, because
Speaker 3: you spend so much of your time talking to real Americans,
Speaker 3: and I'm curious just about the logistics of that. A.
Speaker 3: How do you manage your schedule? How do you decide
Speaker 3: where to go and who you're going to be able
Speaker 3: to talk to? And are people willing to talk to you?
Speaker 3: So I just asked you four questions in one.
Speaker 1: Just kind of where that lens came from. Like for me,
Speaker 1: since so much of my kind of entrance into national
Speaker 1: political reporting was coming after the twenty sixteen election, it
Speaker 1: felt as if there were things happening on the ground
Speaker 1: and kind of outside more than it was being dictated
Speaker 1: by parties in candidate It's actually remember when I was
Speaker 1: in DC working for the Boston Globe.
Speaker 2: Is when Charlott's will happened.
Speaker 1: I was there for thinking, I kind of want to
Speaker 1: be out there, and I think that that's my best
Speaker 1: use is like some kind of change that's happening in
Speaker 1: this country. And frankly, I think in the experience of
Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election, feeling like not enough political journalism
Speaker 1: had taught me about my neighbor and my communities and
Speaker 1: these other kind of places and the diversity of the electorate.
Speaker 1: And so when I got the opportunity and come into
Speaker 1: the Times to cover elections, I made it pretty clear
Speaker 1: that like, that's where I thought my best use was
Speaker 1: was in kind of telling stories from bottom up rather
Speaker 1: than top down.
Speaker 3: Why do you think there's such a disconnect.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of assumptions about the ways that
Speaker 1: the country was changing that were coming from the parties.
Speaker 1: Right if we remember that Obama era, you know, the
Speaker 1: idea that the country was having more immigrants, more black
Speaker 1: and brown people were supposed to kind of inevitably move
Speaker 1: it and this assume direction. And I just think some
Speaker 1: of those assumptions really flatten the differences in those folks
Speaker 1: and flatten the ways they were changing the country, and
Speaker 1: so when I got the opportunity to go out there,
Speaker 1: it became really clear to me that, hey, some of
Speaker 1: this stuff that people are assuming about these people and
Speaker 1: about the way our politics would be sorted doesn't really
Speaker 1: seem true. And so that really was informing me at
Speaker 1: the time, and I really just get the most energy
Speaker 1: from it too. You have a natural curiosity to those
Speaker 1: folks and really feel like bringing people into the process
Speaker 1: and bringing their voices into the process is really a
Speaker 1: value add. But to your questionon of like how do
Speaker 1: you decide, I think that's a real big onus I
Speaker 1: put on myself. It's like, if our elections are going
Speaker 1: to be decided mostly by me and be people who
Speaker 1: don't trust the New York Times inherently or aren't following
Speaker 1: the news all the time, you can't just go to
Speaker 1: that traditional rally, You can't just go to the campaign
Speaker 1: event because they're not there. And so we tried to
Speaker 1: think of more untraditional events where we can find people
Speaker 1: and bring politics to them. So I think of an
Speaker 1: example of the Iowa State Fair a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: where you know, the traditional thing to do is to
Speaker 1: follow the candidates. Now, as we had done multiple times before,
Speaker 1: but instead of doing that this time around, we went
Speaker 1: to the Jason al Dean concert on the last day
Speaker 1: of the Iowa State Fair because he had that song
Speaker 1: try that in a small town that was kind of
Speaker 1: going viral among Republicans, and we thought that asking people
Speaker 1: there what the song meant to them and what kind
Speaker 1: of royal identity meant to them was more fruitful than
Speaker 1: just saying, you know, what do you think about this candidate?
Speaker 2: What do you think about this campus? It's so smart,
Speaker 2: That's so what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: We just try to think differently about where to go,
Speaker 1: and it really I think gives different results. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, I think of another example about we wanted
Speaker 1: to cover masculinity and young men in this election, so
Speaker 1: we went tailgating with rat boys in Madison and talk
Speaker 1: to them about why they identified with Donald Trump, as
Speaker 1: you know, on a day in which Charlie Kirk was
Speaker 1: coming to campus and a lot of them were going
Speaker 1: to that event. And so to your point, it really
Speaker 1: asked us different questions. I think brings different people into
Speaker 1: the political conversation. But I think you can always have
Speaker 1: a problem of just finding two or three individual voices.
Speaker 1: So I always want to make sure we're lining up
Speaker 1: with polling, we're lining up with the reporting that the
Speaker 1: rest of the Times is doing too, because we just
Speaker 1: have one person who seems like an outlier.
Speaker 2: That makes me a little nervous, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I think the real power of the work
Speaker 1: is when you're giving the why behind a reason why
Speaker 1: someone's voting, and then poling's telling you, you know, the
Speaker 1: Matt aggregatet numbers, or you know, are folks like Maggie
Speaker 1: Haraman Johnson Sma telling you what's happening on the inside.
Speaker 1: I think all of those things add up to a
Speaker 1: better political picture. But we try to bring the voter
Speaker 1: and the electorate, bring them into it because I kind
Speaker 1: of feel like, particularly in this moment, they've been the
Speaker 1: ones who have been most outside of that conversation.
Speaker 3: Is it hard for you to get people to talk
Speaker 3: to you, to open up and be truthful with you.
Speaker 3: I mean, you are from the New York Times that
Speaker 3: for a lot of people in the middle of the
Speaker 3: country or even you know, all over the country, for
Speaker 3: a certain set of people, that's sort of the enemy
Speaker 3: of the people, if you will. So proclaimed President Trump,
Speaker 3: but you know, you're a young black man, you're with
Speaker 3: The New York Times, and you're talking to frat voice
Speaker 3: at the University of wiscons about male anger.
Speaker 2: I'm out of Trump rally.
Speaker 3: I'm curious. So I'm one of those frat boys. How
Speaker 3: do you approach me?
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I try to do is tell
Speaker 1: you why I'm there, and be really open and kind
Speaker 1: of vulnerable about the process, and tell you the reason
Speaker 1: and framework that kind of brought us to it. And
Speaker 1: oftentimes I think when you acknowledge people's concern like I
Speaker 1: don't have a I don't think I'm owed anyone's time.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm owed anyone's voice or their beliefs.
Speaker 1: And I kind of acknowledge the ways in which I
Speaker 1: understand it would be skeptical by it too. And so
Speaker 1: if someone says I feel like the New York Times
Speaker 1: doesn't represent voices like me or hasn't included those people,
Speaker 1: I don't really try to talk them out of it.
Speaker 2: I really just say what am I here for?
Speaker 1: Otherwise it's but I'm here because I want to bring
Speaker 1: your fore but your perspective to the forefront. So I
Speaker 1: think going is really the thing that gives me the
Speaker 1: best opportunity because you've already proven you care about out
Speaker 1: bringing them in if you're there, right. And then the
Speaker 1: other thing I think about is I don't really feel
Speaker 1: the need, you know, I don't feel the need to
Speaker 1: talk people out of their media distrust. I sometimes empathize
Speaker 1: with their media distrust, you know. And it really wasn't
Speaker 1: kind of trump bowlders or conservatives that taught me that.
Speaker 1: Back when I was a local crime reporter for the
Speaker 1: Boston Globe and I was going to Roxbury and Dorchester
Speaker 1: and those communities, they would look at a Globe reporter,
Speaker 1: even though I was all black or whatever, and say,
Speaker 1: your paper only shows up here when there's a murder.
Speaker 1: You're not here consistently and all through that time. And
Speaker 1: so I actually really empathized with that viewpoint. But I
Speaker 1: would also argue, I remember then, saying, you're gonna want
Speaker 1: an empathetic record of what happened today. You're gonna want
Speaker 1: facts and accuracy about what is going on, and you
Speaker 1: were going into the worst day of people's lives all
Speaker 1: the time. And so that was really my training in
Speaker 1: terms of learning how to try to create trust. But
Speaker 1: I really think it's not like a science more so
Speaker 1: than it is. I try to be honest, I try
Speaker 1: to be understanding, listen, and I just link. And I
Speaker 1: think audio helps too because I don't have to tell
Speaker 1: them I'm just picking a quote here or there. Right,
Speaker 1: They get to be a more full person and they
Speaker 1: hear that personhood reflected. And so we've had pretty good
Speaker 1: returns with Republicans, honestly partially because I think they feel
Speaker 1: more confident that they will be.
Speaker 2: Heard in full.
Speaker 1: And so we almost to a person get responses saying
Speaker 1: I like, did not expect this, but I really feel
Speaker 1: like represented in what I heard.
Speaker 2: And that's to me the best part.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not there, particularly with voters to force accountability
Speaker 1: or to indict their beliefs. I really am there to
Speaker 1: get to clarity, and so once they're clear and kind
Speaker 1: of honest, that's good for me.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's not like a politician interview or one of those
Speaker 1: where you're trying to need accountability or you're fact checking
Speaker 1: or things like that. With individual people, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to get them to be most honest and most open.
Speaker 3: So what has been the most surprising thing for you?
Speaker 3: Instead being on the ground in terms of your preconceived
Speaker 3: no yep, of how Americans are feeling or even specifically
Speaker 3: Trump voters and what you have found when you actually
Speaker 3: go and speak to them faced dice.
Speaker 2: Yes, I would say, I guess I.
Speaker 1: You know, we talk a lot about polarization in our
Speaker 1: country and the split between dn R and the ways
Speaker 1: of which our electricate has been divided, and I think
Speaker 1: my interpersonal experiences are more kind than people would expect
Speaker 1: across the bore. It actually makes me think that the
Speaker 1: polarization it might be more driven by system, might be
Speaker 1: more driven by the fact that they have to sort
Speaker 1: themselves in two parties, or jerry mandering has changed Congress
Speaker 1: to mean that they don't have to look at it,
Speaker 1: they don't.
Speaker 3: Have to Algorithms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like algorithms on the Internet, and it makes
Speaker 1: me think more about the ways divisions imposed on us,
Speaker 1: because when I have those interpersonal interactions when I'm.
Speaker 2: Actually there, I very rarely have.
Speaker 1: The type of contentious moments They've happened every now and then,
Speaker 1: but I have them a lot less than people expect.
Speaker 1: And so that's one thing that really comes to mind
Speaker 1: almost in meeting. But the other one was kind of corny,
Speaker 1: but like I've gotten to go everywhere. I'm sure you've
Speaker 1: had this experience too, where Like I've gotten to travel
Speaker 1: so many places in the country too, and I just
Speaker 1: think I've had a better appreciation of the diversity, the
Speaker 1: beauty like things there are places like and think about
Speaker 1: the Deep South and my kind of Chicago upbringing, like
Speaker 1: I thought of it was kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: Slavery Land, to be honest, or like past and all
Speaker 1: of this stuff. And I think that my experiences there
Speaker 1: were so different than that perception that you can't really shake.
Speaker 1: It makes really clear how that was your own biases.
Speaker 1: And so I've had that a number of times in
Speaker 1: a lot of places, and I feel like it really
Speaker 1: just makes me feel like with intention and with thought,
Speaker 1: you can find connection wherever. And I know that's not
Speaker 1: like fully a political answer, but I do think it
Speaker 1: reminds me about the polarization question we face and how
Speaker 1: much of that is like electorate that's divided, and how
Speaker 1: much of that is a political system that's dividing an electorate.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting because I think, you know, I get
Speaker 3: fed a lot of algorithms that reinforce sort of my
Speaker 3: own point of view, and I often wonder like, how
Speaker 3: can people so blindingly support Donald Trump at this moment
Speaker 3: in time? And we'll talk about where we are as
Speaker 3: a country in general, but do you go in like
Speaker 3: how could you in any way? Or you never have
Speaker 3: that frame of reference. It's always why do you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's way more why do you?
Speaker 1: And then go back to the Boston and local experience too,
Speaker 1: because I remember when I would do those stories, you
Speaker 1: would have to emotionally center yourself kind of before you
Speaker 1: went in to that tough situation. And I kind of
Speaker 1: still do that outside of the rally or outside of
Speaker 1: the event. And I think whatever happens over the next
Speaker 1: couple hours is not about me, you know, And I'm
Speaker 1: really just trying to draw folks out, and I'm really
Speaker 1: just trying to follow.
Speaker 2: My own curiosity, right.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I remember the complaints about
Speaker 1: the diner stories, you know, Rump in the first term,
Speaker 1: where people are so sick of going back to people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: do you still support them? They would say I still
Speaker 1: support him. They're like, why are we doing this? And
Speaker 1: I guess, to me, those are just poorly executed. You're
Speaker 1: not asking the right questions. Right, And I don't want
Speaker 1: to let people get away with the same things that
Speaker 1: we hear all the time. So because of that self
Speaker 1: selecting media you're talking about, we hear the same phrases
Speaker 1: over and over. Oh he's a businessman. Oh he says
Speaker 1: what other people are thinking. And so I, you know,
Speaker 1: me and the folks I work with were always pushing
Speaker 1: past that. We're trying to say, what is it that
Speaker 1: he's saying that others won't say, you know, like, what
Speaker 1: is the actual issue? What is the moment that brought
Speaker 1: you to him if you were skeptical before, Like, let's
Speaker 1: get actual pieces of themselves that highlight that rather than
Speaker 1: the kind of I think, more neutral phrases that folks
Speaker 1: are used to getting to. And I think when you
Speaker 1: break past that barrier, there is actual interesting stuff that
Speaker 1: I can trust myself to just follow. And so if
Speaker 1: I'm bored, I trusted everyone else is gonna be bored too,
Speaker 1: write and so in the own and I'm in that
Speaker 1: conversation thinking well, what parts of this do I find
Speaker 1: interesting and how do we get deeper there? But you know,
Speaker 1: some of the experiences are wild, you know, like I was, that's.
Speaker 3: Your wildest experience if.
Speaker 2: We were talking Trump and Trump voters.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, right after the election, when Biden was
Speaker 1: finally announced the winner, I was in Wisconsin. Now I
Speaker 1: remember telling to my editor because of these experiences I
Speaker 1: had had, I've been talking to all these Trump voters
Speaker 1: along the way, going specifically to like Maga places. In
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, when Trump won, I joined all these Trump
Speaker 1: Facebook groups and prioritized them on my news feed so
Speaker 1: I would live in kind of trumpness.
Speaker 2: And so I was telling him, I'm pretty.
Speaker 1: Sure a group of these people will not recognize Joe
Speaker 1: Biden as legitimate, that there's no way that they would
Speaker 1: actually see him as which have been president. So he
Speaker 1: was like, okay, follow up with some of them. And
Speaker 1: so I go down to Texas and I'm with this family.
Speaker 1: I spend this day with this family. I go to
Speaker 1: their church, and I went to this county specifically because
Speaker 1: it had the biggest swing to Trump in the country.
Speaker 1: And so I go to this church. I have spent
Speaker 1: this whole day with this church. And then at the
Speaker 1: end of the day we start talking about BLM. And
Speaker 1: you know, at this point, they've been really kind to me.
Speaker 1: They brought me into their home, they made some food,
Speaker 1: they gave me some lemonade, all this stuff. But at
Speaker 1: this point they also start talking about if these people
Speaker 1: come to their town, they're going to string them up.
Speaker 1: One of them set the end word like, and all
Speaker 1: of this stuff is happening at the same time the
Speaker 1: kindness existed twenty minutes before and existed twenty minutes after.
Speaker 1: And so what I remember about the print version of
Speaker 1: that story is you can't fully feel all of those
Speaker 1: things changed, right. I included in the string them up quote,
Speaker 1: and that gets all this buzz and attention, and I
Speaker 1: remember kind of feeling bad for them because we had
Speaker 1: had this whole day that really just got swallowed up
Speaker 1: in a very dramatic and bigoted thing that happened at
Speaker 1: the end. But that's why I liked audio is because
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't have to choose. You can actually
Speaker 1: hear that whole interaction, and you recognize the new once
Speaker 1: and complexity much more without me picking and choosing, and
Speaker 1: so like, I don't want to act like I actually
Speaker 1: felt bad, but I felt like it did not fully
Speaker 1: represent my own experience there, and I wanted to be
Speaker 1: in a place that can more do that three dimensional,
Speaker 1: like storytelling.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting.
Speaker 2: Like there's a.
Speaker 1: Couple others too, Like there's moments I trust people when
Speaker 1: they told me like we don't want you here, I'm
Speaker 1: like sure and I leave. You know, like I'm not
Speaker 1: like fully unhinged, but in most ways I often think
Speaker 1: like if you say, if you phrase it in the
Speaker 1: right way, and if you present yourself in the right way.
Speaker 2: I've mostly had people come to you.
Speaker 3: Hi, everyone, It's Katie Couric.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I'm always on the go between running my media company,
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Speaker 3: free personalized fitting. You know, I'm thinking about a statistic
Speaker 3: I read recently that fifty six percent of Republicans viewed
Speaker 3: January sixth as legitimate political discourse now in the hands
Speaker 3: of astet Herndon. How do you talk to a Trump
Speaker 3: voter about that?
Speaker 1: Well, one, if you are showing up to a Trump
Speaker 1: voter and you don't live in conservative news, you're already
Speaker 1: way behind. So already in those interactions, they can tell
Speaker 1: if you actually read or listen or watch or the
Speaker 1: world that they're in.
Speaker 3: And so do you have to immerse yourself in conservatives?
Speaker 1: And that's why I say the thing about joining Trump
Speaker 1: Facebook grooves, watching Fox News, following you know, kind of
Speaker 1: maga influencers, like you have to actually know because there's
Speaker 1: a separate stories that go viral, there's a separate news cycle.
Speaker 2: They have a different language.
Speaker 1: And so if you're in that in person interaction and
Speaker 1: you're talking about things and you seem like this the
Speaker 1: first time you're hearing about it, they know already that
Speaker 1: you're already at a distance. And so I would say
Speaker 1: the first thing I would do is follow what they
Speaker 1: follow right to form those connections. And so story I'll
Speaker 1: tell about this is I remember in the period after
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election, but before January.
Speaker 2: Sixth, so right after I did that Texas story.
Speaker 1: I was a signed to go through the Georgia runoff,
Speaker 1: so I was in Georgia's a whole time, and I
Speaker 1: remember like again me, someone who has done that work
Speaker 1: has followed has nos. I remember thinking this is more
Speaker 1: feral than usual, Like this isn't the usual conspiracy crowd.
Speaker 1: I'm at in Levanka Trump event and the Georgia suburbs,
Speaker 1: and these moms are talking to me about dominion voting machines,
Speaker 1: like something different happening here. And so because I live
Speaker 1: in it, you can tell the moments that are outside
Speaker 1: of it too, And I think it had me prepared
Speaker 1: for something like the six I mean not prepared as
Speaker 1: in I think those scenes were shocking to everybody. But
Speaker 1: the possibility of violence, the possibility of illegitimacy of results,
Speaker 1: the possibility that they did not see the term democracy.
Speaker 1: They thought democracy was under threat too, just in a
Speaker 1: completely different way. I knew all that stuff, and so
Speaker 1: that's where following really helps. The other thing I do
Speaker 1: is I'm not shocked. You know, there's usually a moment
Speaker 1: when I'm there they push you and are expecting you
Speaker 1: to react, and are pressing a button almost intentionally, and
Speaker 1: I've always found act like look at the skot like
Speaker 1: act like nothing's happened, and it really helps you get
Speaker 1: over sample I would say about this, I was in
Speaker 1: northern Arizona and I was at what was called trump Stock,
Speaker 1: which was just like Trump fans Woodstock, which like had
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people there who are.
Speaker 3: I never.
Speaker 1: That what means you were living like a really fringe
Speaker 1: space like this wasn't even like the normal influencers. These
Speaker 1: are the folks that like can't even get on Fox News.
Speaker 1: And I was trying that. I was doing the story
Speaker 1: about really about conspiracy. And what I do when I
Speaker 1: get there is I don't want to be secret, so
Speaker 1: I wear my badge openly.
Speaker 2: I go to the organizer first.
Speaker 1: I try to win them over and tell them, you know,
Speaker 1: here's what I'm here to do. And I remember when
Speaker 1: I got there, the organizer says, okay, let's talk like
Speaker 1: it comes in since down and the first thing that
Speaker 1: is put his gun on the table, right, And so
Speaker 1: I just keep pushing and just keep going. And so
Speaker 1: my experience there's that's a dramatic version of that, but
Speaker 1: people do that verbally and kind of rhetorically all the time,
Speaker 1: or they'll mention your own blackness, or they'll mention something else,
Speaker 1: and I'm saying, blow through it. And so those are
Speaker 1: my strategies. And there's little ones too, Like crowds are bad.
Speaker 1: So if you're at a rally, find them one on
Speaker 1: one when they're going to get a concession or when
Speaker 1: or when you can talk to them directly. If you
Speaker 1: talk to them in the line and the whole bunch
Speaker 1: of people start watching, you're going to be a spectacle.
Speaker 1: And so like there's little things you learn too. But
Speaker 1: really I just think like I care. Like sometimes when
Speaker 1: people ask me, how does this work, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: if you don't care, well it won't work, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I have a lot of identities, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm also from the Newst. I grew up in a
Speaker 1: fairly religious family. Like some of the stuff they say
Speaker 1: it those things feel familiar, you know. I tell people
Speaker 1: that the Trump rally often feels sec football game or
Speaker 1: megachurch just as much as it does political rally. And
Speaker 1: those things aren't shocking to me. Those are things I
Speaker 1: have been to and you know, And so I guess
Speaker 1: I would just say an aggregate like I try not
Speaker 1: to make it feel as othering as they expect you
Speaker 1: to make them right.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: They expect the black person at the New York Times
Speaker 1: to be treating them like a kind of experiment, right,
Speaker 1: And so if you are the opposite of that, I
Speaker 1: think it helps the interaction.
Speaker 3: So in aggregate, what have you learned about Trump voters?
Speaker 3: And I want to talk to you then about how
Speaker 3: things have changed.
Speaker 2: If they have that has changed that definitions.
Speaker 3: Okay, well then then let's talk about that. I know
Speaker 3: that you took a break after the election just to
Speaker 3: kind of I don't know, get.
Speaker 2: Live, yeah, like give my life back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and and sort of stabilize everything. And you
Speaker 3: jump back into the fray sort of around the time
Speaker 3: that Trump announced so called Liberation Day, which you see
Speaker 3: is a real threshold moment of his second term. So
Speaker 3: tell me what propelled you to hit the road again
Speaker 3: at that moment in time.
Speaker 2: Well, you need.
Speaker 1: Moments that cut through. And so sometimes things are major
Speaker 1: or big policy, but they haven't necessarily gotten to the
Speaker 1: type of news on interested voter that I'm sometimes talking
Speaker 1: about here or someone who's not following get day to day.
Speaker 1: I think that's particularly true in a year like this,
Speaker 1: but there's not a decision on their hands, right, there's
Speaker 1: not some imminent choice for these folks.
Speaker 2: But tariffs.
Speaker 1: And specifically because we heard so much about inflation going in,
Speaker 1: we heard so much about the price of eggs, the
Speaker 1: price of egg over the last couple of years, I thought,
Speaker 1: this is one of the things. And I remember even
Speaker 1: last year asking folks about the possibility of tariffs, and
Speaker 1: they would just assume he wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of you know.
Speaker 1: Projection or I think nostalgia about first term that was
Speaker 1: informing folks vote, and it was much less about the
Speaker 1: solutions he was saying. And so even when we would
Speaker 1: ask people, hey, on that stage he said he's gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, do this, he says he's gonna get tariffs,
Speaker 1: like people just kind of well, he didn't do that
Speaker 1: last time and or things turned out fine then. And
Speaker 1: so now that we had had that kind of moment,
Speaker 1: it felt to me like, oh, I can go back
Speaker 1: to literally these same people and reference to conversations that
Speaker 1: we had now that it's become a bigger reality. And
Speaker 1: what we found really matched up with you know, what
Speaker 1: the times number said and other things which is that
Speaker 1: there's certainly a causal relationship. The White House is created
Speaker 1: with this chaos with these tariffs and people feeling like
Speaker 1: he's not focusing on bringing prices down and obviously could
Speaker 1: bring it the other way.
Speaker 2: And that is own that.
Speaker 1: You know, I saw Trump say the other day the
Speaker 1: good parts of the economy or mine the bad parts
Speaker 1: are Joe Biden's nobody believes that right, Like, it was
Speaker 1: very clear even to those voters, even the people who
Speaker 1: voted for him, that whatever happens next, and you know,
Speaker 1: in the White House's version that's a return of jobs,
Speaker 1: and every economist version that's not, and that's the possibility
Speaker 1: of raised prices or even the recession. But whatever happens
Speaker 1: next is his fault because he has created that type
Speaker 1: of relationship, and the voters were expressing that, they were
Speaker 1: expressing fear of what's happening next because of the tariffs.
Speaker 1: And I think the way they were administered also reminded
Speaker 1: folks of the same problems of Trump administration. Number one
Speaker 1: was just bad governance, but lack of expertise increased chaos
Speaker 1: in general. And so I think it was not only
Speaker 1: the reality but also how it was done really seemed
Speaker 1: and even in going back to our people really seemed
Speaker 1: to rub them the wrong way.
Speaker 2: Now that's different than saying I regret my vote.
Speaker 1: Right because we talked to I think about twenty ish
Speaker 1: people who we had talked to before. A bunch of
Speaker 1: those folks expressed disappointment about tariffs and about the presence
Speaker 1: of Elon Musk were the things that came up the moment.
Speaker 1: The the co presidency of it all was kind of
Speaker 1: surprising the folks, but very few of them said that
Speaker 1: meant they wished Kamala Harris was president. And so that's
Speaker 1: a very distinct answer, right. We see this in recent
Speaker 1: favorability numbers too, like Donald Trump has had a decrease
Speaker 1: approval rating, but the Democrats is worse, right, And so
Speaker 1: that was really reflected and those type of undecided we
Speaker 1: were going back to, they were disappointed in Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: and I think that could have a big effect in
Speaker 1: things like midterms and the like going forward. But that's
Speaker 1: much different than saying they regretted voting for Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: because they did not.
Speaker 3: At this point, for now, it seems as if they're
Speaker 3: giving him some grace. You know, some people you talk
Speaker 3: to give him credit for trying right, And so there
Speaker 3: seems to be this level of forgiveness for Donald Trump
Speaker 3: that might not be applicable to anyone else.
Speaker 1: Anyone else, any other Republican, even we've seen Republicans try
Speaker 1: to do the same thing and then not really work out.
Speaker 2: How do you explain that some of that is a
Speaker 2: literal brand. I mean, I will say this.
Speaker 1: We were at a plant in Michigan talking to auto
Speaker 1: workers who were affected by tariffs directly. Stilantis had closed
Speaker 1: jobs early a couple weeks earlier, citing tears, and we
Speaker 1: were asking some of those people about, Okay, is this
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's fault?
Speaker 2: And you would hear.
Speaker 1: Over and over, ah, he's negotiated art of the deal,
Speaker 1: like you would hear some leeway even if they were
Speaker 1: kind of unnerved. And I remember the White House Press
Speaker 1: secretary saying a couple days later, like, oh, it's just
Speaker 1: art of the deal, and a lot of the journalists
Speaker 1: were like laughing and like kind of mocking it. And
Speaker 1: it is ridiculous, but it's true, Like he has a
Speaker 1: brand that is different than anybody else.
Speaker 2: It's specifically on this.
Speaker 3: Issue that inoculates him from criticism, that.
Speaker 1: Inoculates him from some criticism or creates a runway or
Speaker 1: an expectation of chaos that's built into him that's different
Speaker 1: than other politicians. And so I would definitely say that
Speaker 1: part of that comes through. But I would also say
Speaker 1: the thing that came up at that plant was he
Speaker 1: had named a real problem that Democrats had not named.
Speaker 1: They were saying that it is true that, you know,
Speaker 1: their jobs have gone overseas. It is true that they
Speaker 1: feel like globalization has kind of left them behind. And
Speaker 1: so the reason you have the Michigan governor, you know,
Speaker 1: saying tariff's are tool, or other people not fully rejecting
Speaker 1: them outright, is because, particularly in states that Democrats have
Speaker 1: lost in let's say Michigan or Ohio's or Wisconsins of
Speaker 1: the world, those are thought of as helpful for American
Speaker 1: jobs because they feel as if in the last twenty
Speaker 1: years no one's really been talking about it, and that
Speaker 1: the parties had a kind of shared agreement before Donald
Speaker 1: Trump came around, that this type of globalization just that
Speaker 1: their jobs are just the you know, a casualty in
Speaker 1: terms of the larger efforts of globalization. And so I
Speaker 1: would say, is like that was true even from the
Speaker 1: Democrats we talked to as the plan people didn't vote
Speaker 1: for Donald Trump at all, say oh yeah, but he
Speaker 1: totally is talking about a real thing that I wish
Speaker 1: even our party talked about more. And so I think
Speaker 1: those are the two things that give him cover for now, yeah,
Speaker 1: cover for now, the brand, and then the fact that
Speaker 1: he is naming a problem that some folks agree with.
Speaker 1: But I would just kind of caution the cover because
Speaker 1: I don't think that insulates him from a real raisin
Speaker 1: prisis right, or some tangible inflation that comes because of
Speaker 1: the tariffs. And I don't think that insulates Republicans from
Speaker 1: know what could be a bad midterms in a year
Speaker 1: or so. But I just think it's not as black
Speaker 1: and white as sometimes it's presented as. And the reason
Speaker 1: the White House has some level of confidence here, and
Speaker 1: the reason why you know uaw President is not all
Speaker 1: against terrors is because even among the Democrats there, the
Speaker 1: non Trump voter there, there's a recognition that Donald Trump
Speaker 1: has named a problem they wish the party named.
Speaker 3: Right. There's a difference, though, between naming a problem and
Speaker 3: executing a solution, And I think there are many people
Speaker 3: who felt, yes, illegal immigration was a problem in this country,
Speaker 3: but we may not want mass deportation without due process.
Speaker 1: And it's the biggest difference between elections and government is
Speaker 1: people will vote on the problem, but then that can
Speaker 1: be completely distinct from what they say the solution is
Speaker 1: and what you're going to realize in the next year. Right,
Speaker 1: And so I think so many voters we were talking to,
Speaker 1: we're not thinking about solutions. They were thinking about their
Speaker 1: distas for the state quo and the Biden administration and
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump had kind of named that stuff, but
Speaker 1: I don't think it was ever a full endorsement of
Speaker 1: the MAGA agenda of Project twenty twenty five, of the
Speaker 1: solutions he was presenting on economy, immigration and things like that.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm curious, did you hear that from voters or
Speaker 3: are you hearing that astead Like, yes, this was a problem,
Speaker 3: but boy, we don't really think this is the best
Speaker 3: way to approach it. You know, whether it's the deportation
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, without due process, or whether it's Elon
Speaker 3: Musk wielding a chainsaw at s pack and saying rip
Speaker 3: to you know, USAID, or whatever it was, whether it's
Speaker 3: doing these tariffs and they're on they're off, they're on,
Speaker 3: they're off. Well, that's what I said, doach with Elon Musk. Yes,
Speaker 3: what I was referring to.
Speaker 2: That's totally we heard that on those issues.
Speaker 1: Really clearly was was yeah, there's a part of the
Speaker 1: what we talked about. But they did not see teriffs
Speaker 1: as a solution. They did not see Elon Musk kind
Speaker 1: of running, you know, getting Social Security passwords and giving
Speaker 1: it to his teenage minions as a solution, right, or
Speaker 1: I think the do process and like specifically how defiance
Speaker 1: of courts specifically on immigration, like all of that stuff came.
Speaker 3: Up, and so does it bother voters.
Speaker 1: I think, I guess that's why I go back to
Speaker 1: folks not having a decision on their hands, Like it
Speaker 1: was expressed as not ideal, but only people who live
Speaker 1: in the day to day of politics think about that
Speaker 1: as like that's like regret, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like it's like a show you watch but you don't
Speaker 1: like an individual episode. It's not like it's like for
Speaker 1: some of these people, I think they're still gonna keep
Speaker 1: watching the show and they just didn't like they just
Speaker 1: don't like kind of what's happening, right, now they're still
Speaker 1: waiting for other shoes to drop, and so I don't think,
Speaker 1: you know, I get what I'm saying, like people have,
Speaker 1: you know, like there was disappointment that was expressed, but
Speaker 1: it's not as if there was a channel for where
Speaker 1: to put it, and so they.
Speaker 2: Weren't dealing with it. Really.
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, it seems an idea, or like yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems chaotic, you know, and moving on with their day.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So when do you think or do you think that
Speaker 3: these independent voters and even sort of people who didn't
Speaker 3: like the alternative and didn't want to support Kamala Harris,
Speaker 3: do you think there will be a turning point? For example,
Speaker 3: we haven't really felt the full impact. Yeah, I think
Speaker 3: of these tariffs yet, and I think in the next
Speaker 3: couple of months it's going to start trickling down to
Speaker 3: the consumer. And do you think then that the runway
Speaker 3: that you describe will continue for Donald Trump or will
Speaker 3: it come to a screeching halt.
Speaker 2: No, I think you're identifying the key point.
Speaker 1: The tangible impact of inflation is what matters here, at
Speaker 1: least in what these folks expressed. They were not saying
Speaker 1: that they're willing to not be able to like feed
Speaker 1: folks in the name of Donald Trump, right, It's and
Speaker 1: I think that's what turns it from just something that's
Speaker 1: happening there to something that's affecting people's day to day life.
Speaker 1: And so if we see that tangible impact of inflation,
Speaker 1: I think we'll see folks And I think think the
Speaker 1: Biden administration is actually a helpful correlary to this because
Speaker 1: it colors everything. Once that kind of pocketbook issue they
Speaker 1: lose faith on. So I think when the Biden administration
Speaker 1: was telling people that inflation was not that bad in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, rather than acknowledging people's concerns about it,
Speaker 1: that impacted the way they viewed immigration, That impacted the
Speaker 1: way they viewed Ukrainian A. That impact, you know, it
Speaker 1: impacts everything else. Once they feel like you're not responding to.
Speaker 2: The direct issue.
Speaker 1: It is very I think the White House is careening
Speaker 1: towards a similar problem. I would say the difference, though,
Speaker 1: is this White House cares a lot less about public sentiment.
Speaker 2: You know, it's.
Speaker 1: Much more a at least you know, my sense of
Speaker 1: talking to them going into election and my sense of
Speaker 1: the reporting from folks I know who talk to them
Speaker 1: more on insight now. I mean, this is a project
Speaker 1: somewhat about insulating yourself from day to day public reaction,
Speaker 1: the expansion of executive authority, the reshaping of government. Like
Speaker 1: it's kind of an effort to not have to calibrate
Speaker 1: yourself to that median voter. I remember asking a person
Speaker 1: who's not in the White House, but it's close to
Speaker 1: the White House, like a couple months ago, like, aren't
Speaker 1: you all kind of you know, this stuff doesn't seem
Speaker 1: that popular, like, you know, And their answer was, what happens?
Speaker 1: Like we you know, there's only like what thirteen competitive
Speaker 1: house seats. They're pretty well set in the Senate, you know,
Speaker 1: like and actually, really I thought was really insightful because
Speaker 1: the parameters, and this might go back to the political system,
Speaker 1: the parameters a blowback for them are kind of small,
Speaker 1: and they know that this time, and so I think
Speaker 1: of this effort the second term versus first term. They
Speaker 1: were reactive to public sentiment a lot more in first term.
Speaker 2: This feels to me.
Speaker 1: Much more like an intentional expansion of executive authority, like
Speaker 1: an intentional pressure points of the legal system and the
Speaker 1: economic system through tariffs. I feel like it's a much
Speaker 1: more three sixty worldview of retribution, and that matters more.
Speaker 1: That kind of power projection matters more than like making
Speaker 1: sure they're doing the right things to keep them in
Speaker 1: a good place for the midterms. I don't think that's
Speaker 1: how they're thinking at all. And so I'm like, they
Speaker 1: are doing things that make their electoral lives harder.
Speaker 2: I just don't think they care. Is that a guy
Speaker 2: say that? I just don't think they care.
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds to me like they just want
Speaker 3: maximum transformation while they can do it, even if it
Speaker 3: does maximum damage to democratic institutions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't believe in those institutions, and so the
Speaker 1: point of this administration, in my opinion, is to wage
Speaker 1: war against them, you know. And so when people talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, what's happening with the ivy leagues or these
Speaker 1: law firms or I'm like, that was their plan, right,
Speaker 1: And so, you know, the thing that was always true
Speaker 1: about the Project twenty twenty five discussion last year was
Speaker 1: like he never had to say endorse or not endorse
Speaker 1: because the group of people around him believe fundamentally in
Speaker 1: those principles. And so I guess I just think now
Speaker 1: the limits will be tested almost inevitably, because it seems
Speaker 1: to me like that was the plan.
Speaker 3: But it's through the system, not through public opinion, right exactly.
Speaker 1: And so you know, so I care a lot about
Speaker 1: public opinion, and I care a lot about, you know,
Speaker 1: hearing those folks, But I also feel like it's important
Speaker 1: to tell them the mandate that politicians and administrations take
Speaker 1: from elections is totally disconnected from the actual reasons you
Speaker 1: might have voted for, Like they only vaguely care why,
Speaker 1: you know, I think so much of what's happening is
Speaker 1: now is a white house that is not really you know,
Speaker 1: they're looking at the mandate in the macro. Hey, we
Speaker 1: won the popular vote, and we won.
Speaker 2: All all the swing states.
Speaker 1: It does not matter if that was small or for
Speaker 1: what reason or whatever. They have a project in mind,
Speaker 1: and I think scheme. Yeah, they have an ideological project
Speaker 1: in mind, a fundamental belief that government and culture need
Speaker 1: to be brought back from what they would say is
Speaker 1: the liberal abyss.
Speaker 2: And that's what they're here to do. And I believe them.
Speaker 3: And they don't really care if he has the lowest
Speaker 3: approval rating in his first one hundred days since Dwice
Speaker 3: the eyes.
Speaker 1: Now at this point, if you're a person who surrounded
Speaker 1: yourself with Trump, you've blown through January sixth, You've blown
Speaker 1: through him getting indicted, You've blown through a lot he got,
Speaker 1: and he's blown.
Speaker 3: Through anybody who challenges your worldview, because if you look
Speaker 3: at those cabinet meetings, they're basically going around the tables
Speaker 3: saying saying how great he is and how he's doing
Speaker 3: everything right. So he doesn't really have any pushback internally,
Speaker 3: for sure.
Speaker 1: I'm saying the people around him now are much more
Speaker 1: and I know this even from our reporters who deal
Speaker 1: with them day to day, are much more unified than
Speaker 1: the first term, where he was cobbling together a team
Speaker 1: of rivals based off of an election they did not
Speaker 1: think they were going to win. Now that's much different
Speaker 1: in this time around. They have been planning about what
Speaker 1: they would do when they would come back to power,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, that was kind of what we
Speaker 1: saw on the journey, you know, was like they are
Speaker 1: much more organized and they have a much more clarified view.
Speaker 1: I will define, as you know, retribution as a theme.
Speaker 1: But you know, Trump, I'm like this came up when
Speaker 1: gates Greats nomination failed. I remember saying to someone, I
Speaker 1: was like, I think so much of political media is
Speaker 1: used to dealing in personality. So you know, Gates fall,
Speaker 1: So who's coming next? And da la lah, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: if I was, I think there's an important thing to
Speaker 1: communicate in this term. I'm pretty sure Donald Trump knows
Speaker 1: what he wants to do with that Department of Justice,
Speaker 1: and whoever's doing it is just an executioner, you know, right,
Speaker 1: And so whether it's Gates or Pambondi or whoever comes next,
Speaker 1: if you might get mad at Pambondi, they will be
Speaker 1: doing that because, unlike last time, he has a view
Speaker 1: of how he wants to reshape things.
Speaker 3: Does that view scare you?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean I guess, I think. I guess.
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't really think like that. You know, that's a
Speaker 1: kind of out of like it's just I don't really
Speaker 1: think like that.
Speaker 2: I think I.
Speaker 3: Think you're staying in the micro not just that.
Speaker 1: I really think that we get what we deserve, you know,
Speaker 1: like do we believe in this or not? I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, And so I think that multi now if
Speaker 1: I get really kind of esoteric about it, Like I
Speaker 1: think multiracial democracies are not stress tested thing. Really, Like
Speaker 1: I think that we tell ourselves we've had this like
Speaker 1: two hundred year democracy and even in my you know,
Speaker 1: my understanding of democracy that only started, including folks like.
Speaker 2: Me for all the loss of stuff so fairly recently and.
Speaker 3: So and most don't last more than two That's what
Speaker 3: I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I actually think we tell ourselves that our commitment to
Speaker 1: these values are entrenched and they're actually to be determined.
Speaker 1: And so I guess I don't even know, like what
Speaker 1: this has always bothered me about the way they talked
Speaker 1: about democracy, they being democrats last year, you know, protect democracy,
Speaker 1: you know, all these and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason I think they lost is that
Speaker 1: trust has already been eroded. And they weren't talking about improving.
Speaker 1: They weren't talking about you know, meeting folks where they are.
Speaker 1: They weren't talk about the ways democracy had failed people.
Speaker 1: You know, they were just saying things are going fine.
Speaker 1: And Donald Trump broke it. And so I guess I
Speaker 1: think now what I believe about this White House is
Speaker 1: they're going to test it, like whether we as country,
Speaker 1: and we as institutions and we as systems have pushback
Speaker 1: space against that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Kittie Couric. You know, if you've
Speaker 3: been following me on social media, you know I love
Speaker 3: to cook or at least try, especially alongside some of
Speaker 3: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,
Speaker 3: Lighty Hoyke, listen to Roman and Inegarten. So I started
Speaker 3: a free newsletter called Good Taste to share recipes, tips
Speaker 3: and kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecurric dot com
Speaker 3: slash good Taste. That's k A t I E c
Speaker 3: o U r ic dot com slash good Taste. I
Speaker 3: promise your taste buds will be happy. You did. You
Speaker 3: talk about Democrats and they have reached their own all
Speaker 3: time low in the polling with an abysmal twenty seven
Speaker 3: percent approval rating. And it's interesting you have framed the Democrats'
Speaker 3: broader challenge and you spoke about this a second ago
Speaker 3: as the choice between being quote protectors of institutions and
Speaker 3: improvers of them. Can you unpack that for us? Why
Speaker 3: you think this choice is so critical for Democrats right now?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 3: And why they're failing so much.
Speaker 1: One of say, and like is I think Democrats have
Speaker 1: a hard, harder electorate challenge on their hands. The Republican
Speaker 1: base is much more monolithic, right, and Democrats, I think
Speaker 1: as they're coming to learn, you know, diversity is a
Speaker 1: strength and it's also a challenge. Like they have a
Speaker 1: lot of different types of people who don't all agree
Speaker 1: on the same vision of much of anything, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I think they have to acknowledge that as
Speaker 1: a first thing. And some of the magic wands they
Speaker 1: were trying to wave around white supremacy or kind of
Speaker 1: like or you know, I think, you know, I think
Speaker 1: they just thought that there were things that could hold
Speaker 1: things together and we would have the all the people
Speaker 1: who dislike the races on this side and your frame
Speaker 1: the other side is races, and then they win, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's not really like that, you know. And
Speaker 1: so I think that one they have to believe, they
Speaker 1: have to believe they even need a vision. I don't
Speaker 1: even know when's the last time they you know, I
Speaker 1: was really close to that twenty nineteen, twenty twenty primary,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember when kind of Warren was leading
Speaker 1: that race of ideas early primary really collapsed because electability
Speaker 1: took over. Everything became much more about beating Donald Trump
Speaker 1: than it was about sorting through what they believed on immigration,
Speaker 1: what they thought healthcare systems should look like. You know,
Speaker 1: all those conversations kind of collapse. They've never really reopened them,
Speaker 1: you know, And so basically what I think is going
Speaker 1: to happen, less so in the midterms because it's kind
Speaker 1: of too fragmented, but definitely in the next primary is
Speaker 1: they are going to have to reopen those things.
Speaker 2: And I just think.
Speaker 1: That like, part of the reason that they're aut of
Speaker 1: twenty seven percent, part of the reason when we're going
Speaker 1: back to these voters and they're disliking Trump and they're
Speaker 1: still not preferring Democrats, is because they do not have
Speaker 1: a sense of the competing vision.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: They know what Donald Trump largely believes on immigration, nobody
Speaker 1: largely believes.
Speaker 2: On the certain issues.
Speaker 1: And when at this point, when we asked them at them,
Speaker 1: what do they believe Democrats? They talk about abortion rights
Speaker 1: and they talk about trans women in sports, which is
Speaker 1: really I don't even and think is something they're committed to.
Speaker 2: It's something that Republicans have put on them. You know,
Speaker 2: and so that to.
Speaker 1: Me is just a sign they're an empty vessel more
Speaker 1: than they filled up their own cup, you know.
Speaker 2: And so like, I guess I think that's the distinction.
Speaker 1: I'm really talking about, is a kind of internal decision
Speaker 1: among the party about what do we believe?
Speaker 2: And he sees people talking about this, you know.
Speaker 1: I saw Chuck Schumer say the Democrats united and that's
Speaker 1: what's important, and Bernie saying, what are we united around?
Speaker 2: Like, that's what the missing piece is.
Speaker 1: And I think that's coming from I don't even think
Speaker 1: that just in the ideological left right center. I think
Speaker 1: there's other issues that Welders talk about to us all
Speaker 1: the time that they don't really deal with. Homelessness, education,
Speaker 1: term limits. That's one that Washington doesn't deal with, but
Speaker 1: we hear about it all the time from everyone, yes,
Speaker 1: all across the money in politics, you know. Like, and
Speaker 1: so I think Bernie's actually a good example because in
Speaker 1: his races, we focus so much on the kind of
Speaker 1: agressive left DSA style when you would meet so many
Speaker 1: of voters who were there really because it just represented
Speaker 1: a break from establishment. It just represented less money in
Speaker 1: politics and a kind of outsider in the same way
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say there was so much
Speaker 3: overlap between Bernie supporters and Trump's support because of.
Speaker 2: That kind of outside of establishment thing.
Speaker 1: And so I just think that some of the questions
Speaker 1: they have to ask themselves going for is how do
Speaker 1: they create a closer relationship and a closer conversation with
Speaker 1: their base, and how do they acknowledge that their base
Speaker 1: is diverse and that conversation might be a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Right, We in Poland.
Speaker 1: Would see all the time that the softest places of
Speaker 1: support for supporting Ukraine among Democrats were among black Silentinos,
Speaker 1: about working class folks. So I'm saying there are places
Speaker 1: in the party where the universalness in DC is not
Speaker 1: really reflected on the ground, and those are the places
Speaker 1: where Republicans have picked folks off. And so they don't
Speaker 1: have a problem really among you know, news college educated,
Speaker 1: they've been doing better and better. They don't have really
Speaker 1: problem in like politics. Interested in smaller turnout elections. They've
Speaker 1: been destroying Republicans in the way that they were never
Speaker 1: doing under the Obama era. What they have struggled with
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump specifically exploits for the record, So Republicans
Speaker 1: can get nominee and then this collapses. But Donald Trump
Speaker 1: specifically exploits is reaching someone who does not followed the
Speaker 1: newness and exposing I think, just their struggles with authenticity
Speaker 1: and so they've been kind of consulted, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: out of being themselves.
Speaker 2: Often.
Speaker 1: Trump is a lot of things, but he's himself, and
Speaker 1: so that kind of non traditional politician reaches different types
Speaker 1: of people. Can go to different Internet spaces, you know
Speaker 1: that are you know when people talk about Kama Harrison
Speaker 1: caller Daddy, the problem is not just where you're going,
Speaker 1: is that when you go there, you sound exactly the
Speaker 1: same that you sound everywhere else, right, And so.
Speaker 2: I'm like, that is just a message.
Speaker 1: Thing like that, that is just like a I think
Speaker 1: Trump specifically exploits that.
Speaker 3: But do you think it ever gets so extreme that
Speaker 3: it goes from authenticity to bizarre or disrespectful. I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about Trump posting himself in papal garb.
Speaker 2: It's disrespectful Trump is I think Trump is.
Speaker 3: Or saying people can get you know, I don't think
Speaker 3: a beautiful baby girl that's eleven years old needs to
Speaker 3: have thirty dolls. I think they can have three dollars
Speaker 3: or four dolls.
Speaker 1: One thing I'm going to say about this, though, I
Speaker 1: think sometimes we act as if those things have not
Speaker 1: hurt Trump. Trump is an unpopular politician, and when we
Speaker 1: are out there in the world, people cite these things
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 2: It's problems they have with Donald Trump, and even in.
Speaker 1: The last several weeks, but they forgive him in the
Speaker 1: last several years. I don't think a vote for him
Speaker 1: is always a forgiveness, right. I think that's why I
Speaker 1: go back to the system. Last couple years, they were
Speaker 1: wrestling with the fact that they didn't like either of
Speaker 1: their options. We would not just hear we were hearing
Speaker 1: both sides as bad, right, And so people were working
Speaker 1: through their expressing their dislike of Donald Trump. But they
Speaker 1: were also wrestling with their dislike of the status quo
Speaker 1: and blaming the Democratic Party for that. And so I
Speaker 1: don't think we should say those things are forgotten or
Speaker 1: forgiven more so than they were tolerated. Yeah, they were
Speaker 1: deprioritized on their list and other things were prioritized, and
Speaker 1: so when there's not an election, those things stick out more.
Speaker 1: That's why his approval ratings going down. That's why you know,
Speaker 1: like that's why they might have a tough midterm. So
Speaker 1: I don't think they don't matter, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I do think they didn't cost him the election, and
Speaker 1: they didn't matter more than anything else, and the democratic premise.
Speaker 1: I remember in twenty twenty three, they were fine with
Speaker 1: it being a referendum on Donald Trump because they thought
Speaker 1: Donald Trump they thought they win. That they thought those
Speaker 1: things hurt him and that he would be kind of
Speaker 1: invalidate himself.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that was the bad assumption, right.
Speaker 3: Well, if grab them by the you know what, didn't master.
Speaker 1: I think we should have some examples to tell us
Speaker 1: that those where bad assumptions.
Speaker 2: Like That's why I was.
Speaker 1: Thinking, like, are you sure about that, because we've like
Speaker 1: have a lot of things that have already happened. If
Speaker 1: January sixth can't cost you a Republican nomination, like, that's
Speaker 1: something else, you know, happening.
Speaker 2: And so I was on the same page.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying, but sometimes I think people go a
Speaker 1: little too far and act like he's teflon don and
Speaker 1: nothing sticks to him. I'm like, actually, that's not my
Speaker 1: experience with voters either. These things are things they don't
Speaker 1: like and wish he did not do in large part,
Speaker 1: like there's a certain set of people who will love
Speaker 1: whatever he does, but there are Republicans that are underside
Speaker 1: all of those people. We hear about those things all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 3: So were you headed next?
Speaker 2: I actually I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think I think we have to I kind of
Speaker 1: like let things dictate what happens. I think that we
Speaker 1: see some of these pressure points, particularly with like courts
Speaker 1: and legal system rising. I think we know that the
Speaker 1: White House wants to focus on increasing deportations, so I
Speaker 1: think that's going to be a big focus of ours.
Speaker 1: Is like trying to see kind of public reaction to that.
Speaker 1: Do we see the type of scenes we saw on
Speaker 1: the first term, where you know, Muslim band and moments that.
Speaker 2: Cause people to really come out and push back.
Speaker 1: That's kind of where I'm interested in, but I don't
Speaker 1: know where that leads me just yet, but we're.
Speaker 2: Figuring it out. Well.
Speaker 3: I'm really glad you're doing this. Do you think other
Speaker 3: sort of traditional legacy media organizations are catching on to
Speaker 3: the need to have more people on the ground, because
Speaker 3: I think people pulled back for financial reasons. It's hard
Speaker 3: and close bureaus and all that. And I really think
Speaker 3: your reporting is so essential because I think the less
Speaker 3: that it's done, the bigger the divide.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: And I really think you know, the Times, I know
Speaker 1: has you know from us and others has reinvested in
Speaker 1: the kind of idea that that's what makes us unique. Right,
Speaker 1: Like I think there's so much content, right, there's so
Speaker 1: much analysis even or or punditry, But going there and
Speaker 1: getting that type of original reporting, I really think is
Speaker 1: what makes newspapers stand out. And so even though folks
Speaker 1: are investing in it less and may want to pay for.
Speaker 3: It less and local newsrooms are closed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like the ecosystem has changed, you can still
Speaker 1: feel how vital it is and how much it feeds
Speaker 1: the broader media ecosystem. Like I'm like, someone's gotta go,
Speaker 1: Someone's got to ask them.
Speaker 2: They don't matter.
Speaker 1: I want to pay for you to go, right, Like
Speaker 1: they don't maybe they, but and so all those consecreators
Speaker 1: are making stuff off of somebody.
Speaker 3: Going oh now.
Speaker 1: So I feel like, you know, it's an opportunity for newspapers,
Speaker 1: but I really think we should also take some other
Speaker 1: lessons it's like we can't. I think the era that
Speaker 1: we ask people to trust us just because is over.
Speaker 1: So I don't think the reason to trust us is
Speaker 1: because it's a New York Times. I think think we
Speaker 1: have a process, we show that process, you can hear
Speaker 1: that process, and I think something that media can take
Speaker 1: is that type of vulnerability.
Speaker 3: And transparent is helpful for actually.
Speaker 1: Gaining those things because I think, you know, I tell
Speaker 1: the people when they ask me about like the Times
Speaker 1: and things like that. I'm like the process of editing
Speaker 1: is actually I think would inspire more trust. Like the
Speaker 1: difference between us or a random place is that there
Speaker 1: is a We are used to going through a fact
Speaker 1: checking and context process that helps a story, and so
Speaker 1: I think we should open some of that up. And
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the work we've been trying to
Speaker 1: do and like others, because I think there's nothing to hide, honestly,
Speaker 1: and that when we print it out there, folks are
Speaker 1: more likely to come to us not less.
Speaker 3: One person asked on social how do you keep your
Speaker 3: morale as a journalist when the president and the public
Speaker 3: left and right keep bashing the media and you say,
Speaker 3: nobody owes you their trust and you have to work
Speaker 3: to gain it. On the other hand, when they're loaded
Speaker 3: for bear right, When it comes to the media, it
Speaker 3: is hard.
Speaker 2: It's different too.
Speaker 1: I've even seen it in my time, like that type
Speaker 1: of media antagonism rise and it comes up on the
Speaker 1: road for sure. I guess what I think, Like my
Speaker 1: morale though, is not based and I think this is
Speaker 1: a change that happened for me, Like I had to
Speaker 1: remove myself from only caring about impact or caring about
Speaker 1: you know, a politician or public acting on it or
Speaker 1: really you know, I really started caring more about the
Speaker 1: record itself and being like, actually, there's real power in
Speaker 1: just bringing these voices here and trusting that in the
Speaker 1: end there's gonna be some value to the fact that, like,
Speaker 1: whether folks listened or not, there was a record built
Speaker 1: that showed a more diverse set of viewpoints.
Speaker 3: Even if you don't necessarily understand, even.
Speaker 1: If you don't understand, even if you don't agree, Like,
Speaker 1: bringing those folks to the table has value within itself,
Speaker 1: and so really I channel that through the work and
Speaker 1: that helps my Marie. Wow, is that like it's kind
Speaker 1: of distinct from what folks do with it is to
Speaker 1: stink from how folks vote because of it. I love
Speaker 1: the process of bringing people in. And the other thing
Speaker 1: I try to do is like election wise, it doesn't
Speaker 1: help to be a super wrong you know, you have
Speaker 1: to have interest because people have other interests and it's
Speaker 1: also informing their vote. So I try to make sure
Speaker 1: I think about things that are not politics and journalism like,
Speaker 1: and I.
Speaker 3: Think it's actually for your own sanity.
Speaker 1: Like it's an intentional effort to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go ride a bike today. Yeah, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have to be in places of culture and like
Speaker 1: be have a life that is helpfully round it because
Speaker 1: actually makes my connection of folks better, Like rotching World
Speaker 1: High Wives makes my journalism better, you know, because I
Speaker 1: can be somewhere someone can reference something and I understand
Speaker 1: it right, Like sports makes my journalism better because I
Speaker 1: know kind of what's informing people in communities. So I'm
Speaker 1: saying I try to make sure I think about the
Speaker 1: other stuff because one I would just be too overwhelming,
Speaker 1: but two, like it actually comes up a lot.
Speaker 2: I'll tell a story about this.
Speaker 1: I said this yesterday, But I remember when I was
Speaker 1: in Boston and I had to do all those cop
Speaker 1: interactions because of I was covering crime and stuff and
Speaker 1: I was having such a tough time like just like
Speaker 1: connecting with them and also just like you know, not
Speaker 1: giving me information. It was just kind of taxing. And
Speaker 1: you know, I remember talking to some editor about it
Speaker 1: and I was like, all they do is sit around
Speaker 1: talk about baseball, and they're like, well, have you considered
Speaker 1: watching some baseball? And it actually was so helpful. On
Speaker 1: the ride over. I would listen to WI. I would
Speaker 1: like hear all the baseball like talk, and then I
Speaker 1: would get there and the inn the first ten minutes
Speaker 1: we would just talk about baseball, and the whole day
Speaker 1: would be better. And so it actually made me remember, like,
Speaker 1: just treating him as police officer is making this worse too,
Speaker 1: And so I try to think about that in terms
Speaker 1: of voters and all this other.
Speaker 3: Stuff is like thinking of that people first.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, and if you want to talk
Speaker 1: to me about something that's not poled before we talk
Speaker 1: about something else, sure, Like, but like that requires me
Speaker 1: not being someone I think we all know people in
Speaker 1: news who are twenty four to seven news and sometimes
Speaker 1: it requires that, like, and I definitely definitely follow news
Speaker 1: all the time. I guess I'm just saying I had
Speaker 1: to be like that cannot be your whole life, and actually,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna be out there, it's actually better for
Speaker 1: it not to be your whole life.
Speaker 3: I really needed to hear this today, Stead.
Speaker 2: This would be encouraging interest all around me. Talking to myself,
Speaker 2: I have your hobbies.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for coming in and thank
Speaker 3: you for bringing so much energy at the end of
Speaker 3: what I'm sure it was a long day for both
Speaker 3: of us. It's great to see you as dead and again,
Speaker 3: thank you for your terrific reporting and also just your
Speaker 3: overall intelligence and humanity.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I mean, it's like an honor,
Speaker 1: like you're a legend in the streets. So I'm saying,
Speaker 1: not even like casually, like any time any place, I'll
Speaker 1: be there.
Speaker 3: Thank you with Stead. Tell your mom I said, Hi, Oh.
Speaker 2: My goodness's gonna love that.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 3: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 3: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
Speaker 3: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
Speaker 3: love to hear from you. Next question is a production
Speaker 3: of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Speaker 3: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
Speaker 3: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Speaker 3: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
Speaker 3: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
Speaker 3: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
Speaker 3: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
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Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone,
Speaker 3: it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go
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