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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature Future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

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Speaker 1: and today on the show, it's a listener questions episode.

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Speaker 1: You send me your questions to Creature Future pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com, and I do my best to answer them.

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Speaker 1: These can be questions about animals, about your pets, about wildlife,

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Speaker 1: about evolution, about the environment, and I will try to

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Speaker 1: answer all of your questions. So let's get right into

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Speaker 1: it with our first listener question by Katie. I hope

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Speaker 1: you had a great summer. I'm a seventh grade science teacher.

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Speaker 1: This year is part of our ecology unit. I'm planning

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Speaker 1: on having students focus on ephemeral pools, including raising some

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Speaker 1: triumphs under various conditions in our classroom. I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if he'd be willing to do a show on ephemeral

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Speaker 1: pool organisms, including these adorable, charismatic little guys. I love

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Speaker 1: the show. Best wishes, Amanda m I Amanda, so I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy that you're enjoying the show. That's a fantastic

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Speaker 1: suggestion for an episode that I'm definitely interested in doing.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid. I was given some desiccated

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Speaker 1: try up eggs in one of those little kids, and

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Speaker 1: I managed to bring I think a couple to life

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Speaker 1: for a little while, very briefly, but I had no

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Speaker 1: idea what I was doing. I used tap water, probably

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Speaker 1: not the right salinity, so they didn't last very long.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I think this is an excellent episode suggestion.

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Speaker 1: I do want to do a full episode on ephemeral pools,

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Speaker 1: including tryops, but for now I'll just do kind of

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Speaker 1: a brief overview. First of all, what is a tryup?

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Speaker 1: What is Amanda talking about? It is a little crustacean.

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Speaker 1: It looks a lot like a tiny horseshoe crab or

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Speaker 1: some kind of alien. They have this plate like body

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Speaker 1: and a segmented tail that forks at the very end

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Speaker 1: into these two long tips. They're called triops because they

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Speaker 1: have three eyes. Two are these close together compound eyes

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Speaker 1: on the top of their head. They're so close together

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Speaker 1: they're almost like kind of merged into one another, like

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Speaker 1: Sonic the hedgehog, almost, And then they have a third

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Speaker 1: eye in between them. And this eye is a simple

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Speaker 1: eye with a single lens. So triups mature very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and there are many different species of tryops, but in

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Speaker 1: general they only live to be around ninety days, so

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Speaker 1: their eggs, on the other hand, depending on the species,

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Speaker 1: can remain dried out for years. So let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about ephemeral pools. It sounds very mystical and magical,

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Speaker 1: and it is so. Ephemeral pools, also sometimes called vernal

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Speaker 1: pools or informally potholes, are small seasonal pools of water

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Speaker 1: that come during wet seasons and tend to dry out cyclically.

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Speaker 1: So this means that they generally don't house fish, except

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Speaker 1: that there are some fish like killifish that have specifically

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Speaker 1: adapted to having really brief, fast live spans and produce

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Speaker 1: eggs that can survive desiccation, so they can live in

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Speaker 1: these ephemeral pools. But generally speaking, usually there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of invertebrate species. You also have some amphibian species. So

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Speaker 1: what all these species have in common is that they

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Speaker 1: have to be able to reproduce within the wet season

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Speaker 1: and produce eggs that can survive the dry season. So

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Speaker 1: they have to hatch quickly when they are exposed to water,

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Speaker 1: and they have to mature very quickly and reproduce and

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Speaker 1: then lay eggs that we'll be able to survive being

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Speaker 1: dried out. So that's actually why, Like, if you ever

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Speaker 1: got sea monkeys, which are also known as brin shrimp

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Speaker 1: more technically or tryops, and you know, you can buy

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Speaker 1: these kits. You can get them sent to your house.

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Speaker 1: I know, back in probably I think like the fifties

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Speaker 1: used to. They used to advertise sea monkeys and magazines

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Speaker 1: and kids could send in their hard earned cash for

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Speaker 1: a little packet of sea monkeys and a little plastic

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Speaker 1: aquarium and maybe or maybe not have them come to life.

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Speaker 1: Certainly they did not look like the pictures on the packaging,

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Speaker 1: but they were brine shrimp. And the reason that you

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Speaker 1: can revive these dried out shelf stable eggs is that

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Speaker 1: their eggs are very hardy. They survive being dried out.

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Speaker 1: They go into this sort of like suspended not quite

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Speaker 1: suspended animation because it's an egg, so it is not

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Speaker 1: yet fully matured organism, but yeah, it's in a it's

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Speaker 1: in a state of stasis, so you can keep them

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Speaker 1: relatively easily, and then once you expose them to water,

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Speaker 1: hopefully of the right salinity and hardness, then they will

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Speaker 1: hatch they'll come to life. So other ephemeral pool residents

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Speaker 1: are amphibians like salamanders, newts, and frogs. So the nice

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Speaker 1: thing about being an amphibian is you can move around,

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Speaker 1: so as your pool is drying up, you can maybe

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Speaker 1: find another pool that isn't as dry. But they it

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Speaker 1: is also important for them to lay eggs that survive

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Speaker 1: being dried out. There's some amphibians that will bury themselves

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Speaker 1: in the mud to survive dry periods as well. So

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Speaker 1: there are other types of adaptation and ephemeral pools happen

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Speaker 1: all over the world. So you'll have very different species

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Speaker 1: depending on where you are, but you can have in

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Speaker 1: one ecosystem for one kind of ephemeral pool, like hundreds

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Speaker 1: and hundreds of different species who are taking advantage of

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Speaker 1: the cycle, the dry wet cycle. So this is really

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Speaker 1: cool stuff. I definitely want to do a full episode

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Speaker 1: on this. So thank you so much for the question, Amanda,

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Speaker 1: and good luck to you and your kids and raising

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Speaker 1: an army of tryops. I'm very interested. Let me know

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Speaker 1: how that goes, all right, onto the next listener question.

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Speaker 1: This one is really really good. In fact, I would

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Speaker 1: say this is less of a question and more that

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Speaker 1: someone bringing me some research to my attention and a

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Speaker 1: very good summary of it. So I'm just gonna read

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Speaker 1: you the whole email. Hi, Katie, I just happen to

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Speaker 1: read the most mind blowing scientific paper I've ever come across,

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Speaker 1: and it's relevant to your interests. It begins with the

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Speaker 1: statement living organisms are assumed to produce same species offspring

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Speaker 1: and cites two sources, one of which is the origin

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Speaker 1: of species. So you know you're in for a wild ride.

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Speaker 1: A bunch of ant species have queens that lay only

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Speaker 1: princess eggs when they mate with their own males. To

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Speaker 1: make workers, they have to mate with males of entirely

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Speaker 1: different species. The workers are thus all hybrids. And this

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Speaker 1: isn't even the key finding. Apparently this is just a

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Speaker 1: thing some ants do, and it has been known for

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Speaker 1: a while. No, the finding has to do with Mesor Ibericus,

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Speaker 1: the queens of which have to mate with mesoor structor

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Speaker 1: to make workers. So these are the main two species

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be talking about. The problem is

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Speaker 1: that m Ibericus and M. Structor don't live in the

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Speaker 1: same place, so m Ibericus queens do some crazy cellular

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Speaker 1: jewurry brokery to lay eggs that hatch into M. Structor males. Yes,

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Speaker 1: these are queen ants that lay eggs of an entirely

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Speaker 1: different species. So when it's time to mate, the queen's

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Speaker 1: princesses fly off and mate with both m Ibericus and M.

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Speaker 1: Structor ants from other colonies. Then they do something akin

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Speaker 1: to indosymbiosis on the M structor sperm. Quick note from me.

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Speaker 1: Endosymbiosis meaning that you have a symbiote, another organism living

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Speaker 1: inside you. Symbiosis is a non judgmental term of a

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Speaker 1: close relationship between two organisms. Can range from mutualism to parasitism,

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Speaker 1: so in this case it's not necessarily parasitism. Probably closer

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Speaker 1: to mutualism all right. So back to the email. They

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Speaker 1: do something it can to endosymbiosis on the M structor sperm,

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Speaker 1: taking it into the queen's own cells but not merging

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Speaker 1: its nucleus. The queen can thus regulate fertilization and mitosis.

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Speaker 1: She can lay diploid pure strain m Ibericus eggs that

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Speaker 1: hatch into princesses haploid m Ibericus eggs that hatch into

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Speaker 1: m Ibericus males, So diploid and haploid. Diploid is two

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Speaker 1: sets of chromosomes, usually coming from the mother and the father.

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Speaker 1: Haploid is one set, usually in this case coming just

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Speaker 1: directly from the maternal line. So okay, so all so far,

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Speaker 1: very normal for ants. They lay diploid female eggs with

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Speaker 1: genes from both the mother and the father, but then

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Speaker 1: haploid males with genes usually just from the mother. But

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Speaker 1: here's where it gets kind of finicky. So so back to

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Speaker 1: the email. They have haploid instructor eggs. So this is

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Speaker 1: the other species we were talking about. M. I. Buricus

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Speaker 1: is the queen, and they're laying haploid instructor eggs that

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Speaker 1: hatch into instructor males and diploid hybrid eggs that hatch

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Speaker 1: into workers. So these ants can both create basically male

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Speaker 1: clones of another species as well as the hybrid workers.

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Speaker 1: All right, back to the email. This is amazing, right.

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Speaker 1: The authors bring up some important points in the discussion section.

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Speaker 1: The sexual behavior of these ants means we really need

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Speaker 1: to rethink the whole concept of speed. She's because kate

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Speaker 1: nature cares not what boxes we put things into. They

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Speaker 1: also describe such interspecies mating and ants as a form

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Speaker 1: of sperm parasitism, but it's ambiguous which is the parasite

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Speaker 1: and which is the host. One way to look at

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Speaker 1: it is that M. I. Buricus is just using instructor's

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Speaker 1: sperm to make more in my Burcus, not letting their

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Speaker 1: captive instructors mate with princesses of their own species. But

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Speaker 1: from a selfish gene perspective, one could say that mstructor

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Speaker 1: is piggybacking off the hard work of M. My bu

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Speaker 1: because using a whole other ant species to perpetrate the M.

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Speaker 1: Structor genome nature sure is wild and confusing. I guess

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Speaker 1: I should ask a question, shouldn't I? Is this the

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Speaker 1: wildest form of reproduction we know? Or do other species

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Speaker 1: get even crazier? Are there any other animals that laugh

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Speaker 1: in the face of our attempts to define the species?

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Speaker 1: Keeping great Chris, M Hi, Chris, so amazing email, great,

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Speaker 1: great detail, an amazing study that you bring out. So

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Speaker 1: I read the paper you sent me. The paper is

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Speaker 1: called one mother for two species via obligate cross species

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Speaker 1: cloning in ants. So your summary, Chris is perfect. I

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Speaker 1: just want to reiterate stuff because like, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of things going on. These queens of

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Speaker 1: the m Ibericus ants are producing a lot of different offspring.

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Speaker 1: So this incredible species of ant Mesor Ibericus was found

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Speaker 1: to use the sperm of a different species, mesr structor.

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Speaker 1: So the m Ibericus queens are able to use the

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Speaker 1: DNA of their own species to produce both male and

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Speaker 1: female offsprings, but they cannot produce workers. So their free

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Speaker 1: male offsprings are future queens and the male offsprings are

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Speaker 1: their own species and used for mating for producing more

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Speaker 1: future queens. Ah. But they need the inmstructor DNA this

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Speaker 1: other species DNA to produce workers. But they don't only

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Speaker 1: use it to produce workers. They use this DNA to

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Speaker 1: produce clones of males from this other species, haploid males

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Speaker 1: that are only getting their DNA from the instructor DNA,

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Speaker 1: as well as hybrid females that have both m Ibericus

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Speaker 1: DNA and in instructor DNA, and those hybrid workers are

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Speaker 1: essential to the functioning of the colony. So the ability

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Speaker 1: of the m Ibericus ant to produce workers has become

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Speaker 1: entirely dependent on instructor DNA. The researchers found that worker

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Speaker 1: hybrids primarily had the DNA of cloned instructors, although some

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Speaker 1: were wild types. So it means that sometimes the queens

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Speaker 1: had directly mated with instructors they found in the wild

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Speaker 1: and produced produced workers from these matings. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of these workers are entirely produced by clones of this

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Speaker 1: other species. So the queen kind of becomes like a

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Speaker 1: clone factory where she's producing clones of this other species

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Speaker 1: that are then used to meete with to produce hybrid workers. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: she's still doing normal ant things where she's producing future

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Speaker 1: queens as well as males of her own species. So

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Speaker 1: the high amount of workers who are fathered by clones

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Speaker 1: means that, very uniquely among ant species in my Bericus,

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Speaker 1: queens create a steady supply of clones. You know, like

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Speaker 1: in Man. I didn't watch all the prequels to Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: but you know in Star Wars they make a bunch

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Speaker 1: of a clone army. It's what these queens are doing,

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Speaker 1: and then they use these clones to father worker ants.

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Speaker 1: And the study authors liken this to domestication. Definitely very strange,

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Speaker 1: very very weird dynamics going on. I think this study

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Speaker 1: is really really cool Chris, As you pointed out, the

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Speaker 1: concept of species is more of an art than a

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Speaker 1: rule in nature. The most simple definition of a species

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Speaker 1: is the biggest category of organism in which the individuals

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Speaker 1: can mate and produce fertile offspring. This definition is definitely lacking.

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Speaker 1: What about asexual organisms? Right, So you could say, like, ah,

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Speaker 1: but so then a species also includes those that individuals

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Speaker 1: can asexually reproduce. But again, this definition isn'tcomplete given that

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Speaker 1: hybrids exist, and while most hybrids like mules, are not fertile,

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Speaker 1: you can sometimes have hybrid species that are fertile. So

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Speaker 1: often biologists use other markers, either DNA, morphological differences, evolutionary

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Speaker 1: history to help refine the definition of species. So like

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Speaker 1: in this case of these ants, these two species diverged

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Speaker 1: a really long time ago, millions of years ago, and

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Speaker 1: then it seems like this symbiotic relationship developed after they

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Speaker 1: had diverged. So that's kind of why they would say

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Speaker 1: these are different species, even if they're incorporating these other

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Speaker 1: ants regularly into their mating. But it's definitely a fuzzy category.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of gray area, just as there is

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Speaker 1: for most things in biology. But yeah, of course, there's

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Speaker 1: so much debate when it comes to species, particularly differentiating

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Speaker 1: between species and subspecies. There are a whole like species

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Speaker 1: complexes where you have things often things like butterflies or frogs,

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Speaker 1: where you have a huge diversity of species, and then

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Speaker 1: some of them are morphologically genetically extremely similar and can

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Speaker 1: even potentially mate with each other, but they have a

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Speaker 1: few differences. So the question is, at one point are

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Speaker 1: they a different species who can just kind of mate

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Speaker 1: with each other and produce fertile offspring, and at what

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Speaker 1: point are they different. It's very hard. It's very hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of make these categories. There's much a lot

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Speaker 1: of thought that goes into it that I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't quite understand. I'm certainly not the authority on what

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Speaker 1: exactly counts as a species. As for Chris's other question

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Speaker 1: about whether this is the wildest form of reproduction we know,

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Speaker 1: I'd say it's really subjective. To me. This study is

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Speaker 1: really really cool. It's very exciting that you have an

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Speaker 1: ant species that is basically producing clones of another species

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Speaker 1: that they're using as a farm for genetic material to

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Speaker 1: create worker ants. That's incredible. But there's so many examples

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Speaker 1: of really weird life cycles, super super strange, lots of

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Speaker 1: cases of sexual and asexual reproduction, assisted reproduction from like

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Speaker 1: other species, sexual parasites, that all get pretty freaky. I

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Speaker 1: would say, I think that the what is strangest is

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Speaker 1: going to be subjective. But I'll offer up an example

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Speaker 1: of an extremely strange form of reproduction. So I cannot

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Speaker 1: recall if I've talked about this on the show show before,

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Speaker 1: but this is the Adactylidium, which is a microscopic arthropod

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Speaker 1: whose entire life cycle is extremely messed up. So these

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Speaker 1: are mites. These are teeny teeny teeny tiny mites. Their

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Speaker 1: microscopic you really can't see them barely at all, I

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Speaker 1: doubt with the naked eye. So let's start with the

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Speaker 1: pregnant female. She has up to eight embryos inside her,

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Speaker 1: all female, and then she has one male embryo. These

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Speaker 1: develop into reproductively mature mites inside of her, and the

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Speaker 1: male mates with all the sister females fertilizing them, So

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Speaker 1: all of this is already happening inside the pregnant female.

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Speaker 1: Then the offspring eat their way outside of their own mother,

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Speaker 1: who's only a few days old herself, which kills which

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Speaker 1: kills her. So this is not the only form of

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Speaker 1: matrophagi in the animal kingdom. There are other animals that

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Speaker 1: will eat their own mothers, but this is certainly, I think,

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Speaker 1: the only case where you have already pregnant females inside

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Speaker 1: the mother then eating their way outside. You think this

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Speaker 1: sounds really unfair for the females. The males don't have

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Speaker 1: much of a life either. After impregnating all of his

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Speaker 1: sisters inside his own mother, he has no further purpose.

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Speaker 1: Even if he gets outside of the mother with the sisters,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have any instinct to feed or to mate.

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Speaker 1: He just patiently waits for death to come. The females, meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: will find a thrip EGGA thrip is another teeny tiny

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Speaker 1: art pod, So they find an egg of this other

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Speaker 1: species to feed on, and they are already pregnant because

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Speaker 1: they were fertilized while they were still inside the mother.

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Speaker 1: So they feed on an egg and after a few

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Speaker 1: days the same thing happens to them. So it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty thankless existence for these mites. Life is an endless

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Speaker 1: genetic production line and little else. Thankfully, their microscopic they

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Speaker 1: do not have many brain cells around, not much neural like,

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Speaker 1: they do have neural cells, but it's not I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: feel too much existential horror on their behalf because probably

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Speaker 1: they're not super aware of what's going on. So really

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Speaker 1: it's us who get to ponder the existential ramifications of

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Speaker 1: the existence of these Adactylidium mites. So there you go.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I wouldn't say it's cooler than the

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Speaker 1: ant study. I think producing an army of clones of

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Speaker 1: another species that you harvest their DNA from for your

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Speaker 1: own workers is also pretty messed up. Nature's very, very

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Speaker 1: creatively messed up. There's lots of examples. Here's just another one.

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Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed that, all right, So we'll take a

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Speaker 1: real quick break and then get back with another listener question.

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Speaker 1: So here's another listener question. Hi Katie, longtime listener, first

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Speaker 1: time questioner. Could you discuss the management of invasive species

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Speaker 1: and non native species? I find myself torn due to

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Speaker 1: my love for animals. I understand that invasive species can

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Speaker 1: negatively impact or even devastate native species, but I have

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Speaker 1: a hard time with calling them. I suppose it just

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Speaker 1: upsets me that animals have to suffer due to human errors.

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Speaker 1: I know that invasive species have to be managed in

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Speaker 1: some way, but what goes into the decisions on how

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Speaker 1: to manage them? Who typically has the say and how

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Speaker 1: they're managed? Are the management strategies usually successful? What happens

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Speaker 1: when a species is not native but also not harmful?

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Speaker 1: Would they just be left alone? Are there examples of

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Speaker 1: non native species being beneficial? Interested in any information about this? Really,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to know your thoughts so I can understand

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Speaker 1: it all a bit better. Thank you, Ashley from Kalamazoo. Hi, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: So this is a great question, and I totally get

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from. Invasive species aren't evil. It's not

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Speaker 1: their fault. They usually had no real say and where

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Speaker 1: they ended up, and they're just trying to survive. Controlling

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Speaker 1: them is usually very important in protecting ecosystems. But what

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Speaker 1: about when they simply adapt to their new home without

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Speaker 1: wreaking havoc? That's a great question. So we know that

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Speaker 1: certain species like cane toads, cats, black rats, zebra muscles,

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Speaker 1: longhorn beetles, these are all examples of animals that are

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Speaker 1: invasive that can be incredibly dangerous to native species. You'll

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Speaker 1: notice that I mentioned cats I'm talking about the same

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Speaker 1: type of kiddies that we have as pets. Feral cats

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Speaker 1: can indeed be considered invasive where they freely roam, breed,

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Speaker 1: and kill native species, particularly birds. Usually, though we're less

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Speaker 1: comfortable hunting and killing cats because we love them. They're pets,

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Speaker 1: so controlling them usually involves spaying and neutering campaigns, though

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Speaker 1: we do also sometimes trap them and euthanize them. That

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Speaker 1: does certainly happen either way. I think people are more

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Speaker 1: squeamish about being the idea of colling feral cats, right

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Speaker 1: even though we do to a certain extent do it,

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Speaker 1: although we do it humanely with euthanasia. Yeah, rightfully, So,

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Speaker 1: we were uncomfortable with the idea of calling these feral

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Speaker 1: pets that we're the ones who introduced them, and we

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Speaker 1: also kind of have a more personal relationship with them,

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Speaker 1: so we understand we frankly like see them more as

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Speaker 1: an animal with emotions, even though there's plenty of invasive

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Speaker 1: species that we call that are similarly you know, animals

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Speaker 1: that have feelings, right, So, like it's just it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a matter of perspective. Because these are pets, we

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Speaker 1: empathize with them more even though there's plenty of perfectly complicated,

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Speaker 1: intelligent animals who are also invasive species. So unfortunately, like

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of spain and neutering or trapping in,

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Speaker 1: euthanasia isn't always an option. Uh So, for instance, on islands,

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Speaker 1: rats can be really really dangerous. So rats are extremely fertile,

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Speaker 1: they produce a lot of offspring, and so in some places,

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Speaker 1: if they are not controlled quickly, they can very effectively

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Speaker 1: wipe out native island populations, and so usually conservationists will

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Speaker 1: use lethal methods in these in these cases, like using poisons,

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Speaker 1: which I think is it's sad, right, Like, I think

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Speaker 1: rats are intelligent little animals. Some people keep them as pets.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure people who own rats as pets will kind

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Speaker 1: of really sympathize with this, right because you see, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they they they're they they have they they have a brain,

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Speaker 1: they have a mind. You know, they're they're simple creature.

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Speaker 1: But they that doesn't mean that they don't have emotions

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Speaker 1: and they don't have a level of social intelligence. So

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Speaker 1: the control of rats is I think always for me

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Speaker 1: at least, been kind of an uncomfortable an uncomfortable thing

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Speaker 1: to reckon with, right because in terms of protecting ecosystems

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Speaker 1: and also protecting human health, controlling rats is pretty important.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, poisoning them rat

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Speaker 1: poison has a lot of problems, one being that it

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily very humane way of killing an animal, right,

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Speaker 1: And then the other is that if you do have

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Speaker 1: rat populations where they're also predators, you can cause ecological

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Speaker 1: damage if the predators are eating rats who have been poisoned.

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Speaker 1: So I really only think in cases where you are

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Speaker 1: very time constrained, right where rats could easily overtake, say

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Speaker 1: like an island with a lot of vulnerable bird species,

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Speaker 1: and you have to control their population really quickly. I

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Speaker 1: do see why conservations and will sometimes use this, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's certainly not ideal, but at this point, right, logistically,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's what has to be done. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that humane options are always inconvenient or more expensive.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I'll bet that at some point more humane

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Speaker 1: methods will become like the standard. So there are some

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Speaker 1: wildlife advocates who point out that hunting right, like one

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Speaker 1: method of colling, is really ineffective. At this point, right,

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Speaker 1: we don't have there's just not enough people who need

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Speaker 1: sustenance from huntings that are going out and say like

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Speaker 1: colling wild boar populations, So it's it's expensive then to

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Speaker 1: like actually set about trying to purposefully coal and hunt

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Speaker 1: wild boar. So, uh, there's got to be a more

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Speaker 1: effective and also more humane option for being able to

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Speaker 1: control their populations because wild boar can be very destructive

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Speaker 1: to their ecosystem. And that's also an example of an

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Speaker 1: animal who I think is intelligent. I'm not against hunting them, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's certainly in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: no more if less inhumane than factory farming. But if

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Speaker 1: you have to cull a bunch of wild bore, right,

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Speaker 1: that's just more you're and it's not for using their meat, right,

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Speaker 1: it's just because they are an invasive pest. It's not

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Speaker 1: a great situation. And I think it would be really

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Speaker 1: good if we came up with more humane options, and

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Speaker 1: we are so. Researchers and a college's conservationists are coming

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Speaker 1: up with more humane methods of controlling populations, and they've

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Speaker 1: already tried this on gray squirrels. So in the UK,

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Speaker 1: conservationists are trying to control the gray squirrel population, which

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Speaker 1: is an invasive species from North America. So you know,

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Speaker 1: there you go, Britz, you got you got a lot

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Speaker 1: of our movies, but you also get our terrible squirrels.

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Speaker 1: So these squirrels are really not a benign invasive species.

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Speaker 1: They may be cute, but they're devastating the native red

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Speaker 1: squirrel population in the UK as well as other species

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Speaker 1: as well as vegetation, so they're not They're not great

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Speaker 1: in terms of their presence in the UK. Not the

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Speaker 1: squirrel's fault, but they're there and they're causing problems. So

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Speaker 1: controlling the squirrel population with hunting not very effective. Poisoning

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Speaker 1: them not very humane. But also if you have wild species,

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Speaker 1: like say foxes that are native to the region hunting

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Speaker 1: squirrels and they get a squirrel that's been poisoned, that's

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Speaker 1: not good for the fox. So it's like there's not

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Speaker 1: a great solution there. So what they're coming up with

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Speaker 1: is oral contraceptives. So this is not a completely new idea.

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Speaker 1: The idea of basically baiting animals with contraceptives so they

425
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: are rendered infertile has been used in a lot of

426
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: different cases to try to control populations. It's even on

427
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: the genetic level, for mosquito control, creating genetically modified males

428
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: that are infertile to reduce the mosquito population. But this

429
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: is something that is I think being put into practice

430
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: more so for these gray squirrels. What they'll do is

431
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: they will lace this hazel nut spread that apparently the

432
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: squirrels really love with an oral contraceptive. They put it

433
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: in bait boxes that are specifically designed to be accessible

434
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: mainly by the gray squirrels. They try to make it

435
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: specific so it's really only the gray squirrels getting at

436
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: it rather other than a different species or you know,

437
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: a different type of animal that they don't want getting

438
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: to this contraceptive. So then the squirrels go and eat

439
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: the hazel nuts and instead of being killed and poisoned,

440
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: they are rendered infertile. This trick would definitely work on me,

441
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: by the way, I love hazel nuts. Hazel nuts spread

442
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: in a box that's free, Yes, please glad it's not poison.

443
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: But yeah. So this is a potentially very effective way

444
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: of controlling their population that is already being used in

445
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: some instances, and I think probably especially as we if

446
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: we put more research into it, and we're able to

447
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: maybe even like create contraceptives that are really specific to

448
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: a species of animals, So even if another animal eats it,

449
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: they're not going to become infertile. Only the targeted animal will.

450
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: I think that we could really have very humane ways

451
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: of controlling invasive species that are really efficient and you know,

452
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: in the long run, if you invest in the short term,

453
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: in the long run much more cost effective. So I

454
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: don't think that being humane about it is at odds

455
00:33:53,080 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: with efficiency with cost effectiveness, and so I definitely see

456
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: this as hopefully being the future of controlling invasive species populations.

457
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: All right, So let's talk just some of your other

458
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: questions because those are also really interesting. So, like you mentioned,

459
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: who basically gets to say and how invasive species are managed.

460
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: That's a very complicated issue because it's going to differ

461
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: depending on your country, your locality. Even when you look

462
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: at one country, the management of it is going to

463
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: depend on the administration. So for an example, in the US,

464
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: there are a few federal agencies who are involved in

465
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: controlling invasive species. Generally speaking, this as part of the

466
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: National Invasive Species Council within the US Department of the Interior.

467
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: It's a it's a bunch of it's like kind of

468
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 1: a group of people from various federal agencies who oversees

469
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: what to do about invasive species, monitoring them and then

470
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: actions taken. In twenty nineteen, during Trump's first administration, he

471
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: effectively disbanded the National Invasive Species Council by defunding it.

472
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: So for a while it was kind of disbanded, and

473
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: then under Biden it was reinstated. Currently, I have not seen.

474
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much news that's constantly happening, so

475
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: it's pretty hard to keep up with everything that's going on.

476
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's been officially disbanded. I imagine

477
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: it's definitely been affected by government budget cuts, right, So

478
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is as functional as it was.

479
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: I think it still exists, but yeah, the cuts to

480
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 1: funding for a lot of these programs, I would imagine

481
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: also has an impact on the National Invasive Species Council.

482
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: So I my point in bringing all this up is

483
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: that invasive species are typically managed by government agencies, but

484
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: those are subject to the policies put in place by leaders.

485
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: So it's a very it's a it's a pretty complicated

486
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: political question that you bring up, like who is actually

487
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: monitoring this, who is managing it, who decides what to do.

488
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: And again it can also just depend locally, right, you

489
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: may have uh, state agencies or city agencies who have

490
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: their own their own like monitoring species monitoring, and so

491
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: they might come to separate decision. And so let's address

492
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: your question of like, are there invasive species who are

493
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: beneficial or benign? I looked into this, I think that

494
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: there usually uh, it's it kind of depends on what

495
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: you how you define a benefit, right and who who

496
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: is benefiting. So, because you could argue that say, like

497
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: the European honeybee in the US is beneficial to humans

498
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: because we get honey from them, right, It's a big

499
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: agricultural industry of honey, and certainly we enjoy having honey.

500
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: There's a lot of crops and so on that are

501
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: that we grow intentionally, and so in terms of beneficial

502
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: there are certainly arguments to be made that certain invasive species,

503
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: right of crops and animals benefit human beings. Now, in

504
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: terms of the environment, I think it's a little harder

505
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: to make the case for invasive species being beneficial for

506
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: the local habitat. I think often there may be some

507
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: there can be some trade offs, right, Like it can

508
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: benefit certain species, especially. I'm going to talk mostly about

509
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: plants here because it's usually the ones that are more benign.

510
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: Are plants not always the case. There can be some

511
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: really nasty plants that choke out local plants, So plants

512
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: are not Just because it's an invasive plant does not

513
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: mean that it's going to be benign, But a lot

514
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: of the benign species happen to be plants. And you know,

515
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: I think it's like, in some cases, an invasive plant

516
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: may benefit y some of the wildlife there, right, Like

517
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: you maybe have honeysuckle or something that benefits certain birds

518
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: in the area, but then the downside is that that

519
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: might outcompete some other kind of plant, right, So saying

520
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: it benefits it's a little tricky because, like there's certainly

521
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: invasive species that do not cause the collapse of a

522
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: local ecosystem. Saying it's beneficial to the local ecosystem is

523
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: usually a little more granular, where it might benefit some

524
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: species and actually be a detriment to other species, and

525
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: so making a determination of it overall, like improving an

526
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: ecosystem is usually a little bit more complex. But in

527
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: terms of there are some cases where an invasive species

528
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: is much less harmful then we fear when it first

529
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: arrives on the scene. And an example of this is

530
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: the spotted lantern fly. If you live on the east

531
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: coast of the US, you've probably you're probably pretty familiar

532
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: with this. It's a black and red spotted flying insect.

533
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: It's actually a species of plant hopper. It's invasive. It's

534
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: from South Korea. Initially, conservations were very concerned that it

535
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: would kill a lot of local hardwood trees because plant

536
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: hoppers are they there. Their big thing is they go

537
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: onto plants and they suck out the juices, and so

538
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: researchers were rightfully, in my opinion, very concerned that these

539
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: could have a really negative impact on trees, given that

540
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: in their native homes they will attack trees, and these

541
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: trees that we have in the eastern US did not

542
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: co evolve with spotted lantern flies, so they don't have

543
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: the same defenses as trees in their native environments. So,

544
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, environmental experts were quite concerned and there was

545
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: a lot you probably heard a lot of news about

546
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: like you're supposed to kill them on site, and these

547
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: are going to be a menace Fortunately, at least as

548
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: far as the research has shown so far, they're not

549
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: as destructive as they originally had feared. I'm going to

550
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: make a distinction of like, this does not mean they're good.

551
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: They're not good or even benign. But they're not killing

552
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: off the trees in the way that initially had been feared.

553
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that the conservationists the experts were wrong

554
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: to sound the alarm. I think it's much better to

555
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: approach an invasive species with a lot of caution, try

556
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: to nip it in the bud if you can. Obviously

557
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: we weren't able to stop there from being this invasion,

558
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: but you know, I think the caution was definitely warranted.

559
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: But it's simply the nature of science and research that

560
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: you when something novel happens, right like an invasive species

561
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: comes to an ecosystem. You can guess about certain things

562
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: that might happen, but you can't know until you get

563
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: the data. And once you get the data, you revise

564
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: your understanding of the situation. In this case, local hardwood

565
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: tree populations where these spotted lantern flies have been around

566
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: I have not been dying off as was feared. That

567
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: doesn't mean the lantern flies are benign, they still damage

568
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: the trees. The trees are able to withstand the damage

569
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: a lot better than what had initially been feared. You

570
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: still have the problem of these things damaging trees, right, So,

571
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: like if a tree is stressed from a lantern fly,

572
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: can imagine if say there's another invasive species, or say

573
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: there's a fungus or disease that attacks these trees, you

574
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: could in the future still see some kind of really

575
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: serious consequence to the invasive spotted lantern fly. So I

576
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't say that this is enough to say like, ah,

577
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: we don't really need to control their population because they're

578
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: not killing trees as had been feared. The fact that

579
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: they injure and stress the trees is already not great,

580
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: and it could be you know, there are it could

581
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: be one factor that in the future, in some kind

582
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: of event where the trees are put under some other

583
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: kind of stress, that could be really devastating. So uh,

584
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: it is. It's of course new information and data that

585
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: I don't think should be ignored, but it doesn't necessarily

586
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: change the calculus that spotted lantern flies still are not

587
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: necessarily a benign invasive species. Now this is an interesting thing,

588
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: and people were instructed to kill these on site, and

589
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: I think still are so. As an individual killing lantern flies,

590
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: or even as like a collective of everyone when they

591
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: see one, killing one is probably not going to do

592
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: a whole lot to the lantern fly population. There's just

593
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: too many of them, and just by stomping the ones

594
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: you see is not gonna probably make much of a

595
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: dent in the lantern fly population. I mean, if this

596
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: were the case, we would since we all, I would imagine,

597
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: try to kill as many mosquitoes as we can that

598
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: would somehow have an effect on the mosquito population, and

599
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: it just does not really have a significant effect. So

600
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: certainly lantern flies may not be quite as numerous as mosquitoes,

601
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: but still they have a healthy population. So killing them

602
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: on site, given their ficundity meaning they have a lot

603
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: of offspring and their numbers, is not probably going to

604
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: really do much of a dent to their numbers. The

605
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: reason that experts were saying to kill them when you

606
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: see them, the reason that was the instruction was the

607
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: more serious potential problem is that a lantern fly could

608
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: hitchhike with a human and go somewhere else like into

609
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: another region where they're not they have not taken hold,

610
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: so like for instance, getting in your car, getting on

611
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: your clothes, in some of your property, that's you know,

612
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: moving as humans, we like to move around the country.

613
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: And then if that happens and you have a hitchhiker

614
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: and then they start to invade a new region in

615
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: the US, that could be quite consequential. So the killing

616
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: them on site is more of a way to prevent

617
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: them from Like when you encounter one and it's near

618
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: you and you kill it, that reduces the chance that

619
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: you're going to have a hitchhiker lantern fly that you

620
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: bring with you to another region in the US. I think, honestly,

621
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: like I know that public sort of communication, science communication,

622
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: public health communication, all these things are really complicated. I

623
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: always think that it's better to explain everything to people.

624
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: Maybe you can do the simple flyer of like kill

625
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: these guys on site because they're invasive, but having some

626
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: explanation as to the why. Right, these aren't going to

627
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: be dangerous to human beings, They're not going to bite you,

628
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: and you're not necessarily on a crusade to stomp out

629
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: the lantern flies. Maybe like at the very beginning it

630
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: might make a difference. Honestly, I'm pretty doubtful that as well.

631
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: I think that there's only a few cases in organisms

632
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: that don't reproduce as quickly, like the giant Asian hornets.

633
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 1: We were able to control their population before they got

634
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: a foothold, but they're just not as they don't lay

635
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: as many eggs. They don't they don't have the ability

636
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: to reproduce that lantern flies have. So anyways, so that's

637
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: why you are instructed to kill them on site. It

638
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: is to prevent you from having them as a hitchhiker.

639
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: So if you're not planning at all to move outside

640
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: of your you live on the eastern coast of the US,

641
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: and you're not traveling anywhere, and you just see one

642
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: in your backyard and you don't really feel like killing it,

643
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: you're not doing anything wrong. It is pretty much exclusively

644
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: the purpose is, like, you know, it gets in your car,

645
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: on your stuff, and then you travel somewhere. So yeah,

646
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: it's I think that it is. Really there's a lot

647
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: of nuance and to this phenomenon of invasive species. I

648
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: think it's tricky communicating with the public about it because

649
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: usually the efforts are focused on trying to prevent the

650
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: most serious harms that could happen due to invasive species,

651
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: which might leave little room for subtlety in public messaging.

652
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: Right Like you're saying, like, look, lantern flies are a

653
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 1: really cool animal and cool insect and plant hoppers are

654
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: amazing and interesting, but also like, you know, kill them.

655
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: You know, it's a complicated thing, right, So I do

656
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: think that we can both control invasive species understand the

657
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: harms that they cause, while also appreciating life, right Like,

658
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: I kind of sometimes feel like I get where I've

659
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: had this question a few times, and I get where

660
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: you're coming from. This discomfort of sometimes it feels like

661
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: when there's an invasive species and sort of an effort

662
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: to call them, it gives people this like almost permission

663
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: maybe to feel like, I don't know, like there is

664
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: like an evil enemy to destroy, right, sort of like

665
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: in Starship Troopers, right like, Ah, these are insects that

666
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: we can destroy and stamp out and with a relish,

667
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily think it's like really really bad,

668
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: right Like, I don't think it's you know, like wanting

669
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: to stomp on an invasive insect makes you a bad person.

670
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: But I think in general, uh, the kind of like

671
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: the way that we view invasive species as almost like malicious, right, Yeah,

672
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: I think that that is a little odd, right, it's

673
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: ascribing a moral system to them that these insects they

674
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: haven't they they didn't decide to accidentally fly over to

675
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: the US and some ship shipment of goods, so you know,

676
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: to kind of like have this this idea of them

677
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 1: as being evil invaders is certainly not the case. And

678
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: I think like the way that the best way really.

679
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: I think obviously we can just ignore invasive species because

680
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: they can be really devastating. And also I really don't

681
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: think it's wrong for conservationists and in collegists to be

682
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: very cautious at the beginning of noticing that their invasive

683
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: species around, right, So like if they have a really

684
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: strong primary response to it, right, and then it turns

685
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: out that it's not as devastating as they had feared

686
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: it would be, it's not because they're stupid, it's not

687
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: because they made some kind of mistake. It's that it's

688
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: a huge question because like we simply may not know

689
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: what exactly the consequences will be of an invasive species.

690
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: It could be a little bad but not super bad,

691
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: or could be something like cane toads that are just

692
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 1: this really really insidious force of kind of the worst

693
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 1: type of invasive species that really destroys things, are really hearty,

694
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: really tough to get rid of. Again, the cane toads

695
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. They're not evil, they have

696
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: no intention of driving other animals to extinction. They're innocent

697
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: in this situation, but they are really devastating, And so

698
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: it makes sense, I think, to have this really strong

699
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: response to invasive species. But I think that like having

700
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: a full understanding of the situation, being really open to

701
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: new information and data as it comes in, which means

702
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: funding researchers. Like the more funding that we put into research,

703
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: not just in monitoring, but also new techniques of controlling,

704
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: like the what I mentioned with the gray squirrels contraceptives.

705
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: That's going to be the kind of thing that I

706
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: think not only will make this more humane and will

707
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: prove our understanding of invasive species, but I think ultimately

708
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: is going to be more effective than a lot of

709
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: the methods that we currently use. Right So, I I

710
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 1: do not think ecologists conservationists are are in the wrong

711
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: on this at all. I think, if anything, we need

712
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: to be putting more funding into it so that we

713
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: can refine the tools that we use in controlling invasive species,

714
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: and I think those do those will become more humane.

715
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: The high the more technologically advanced that we become, the

716
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: more humane in this case, I think things will be.

717
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I don't think it's incompatible the

718
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: respect for life, but also the understanding of how to

719
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: control invasive species and just for goodness sakes, we have

720
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: to research it. It's really important. So thanks you guys

721
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: so much for listening. I will answer the guests who

722
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: squawking Animal sound guessing game next week. Until then, please

723
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: do send me your questions at Creature Future podu at

724
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. I really enjoy answering these questions, and

725
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: also if you guys point out cool researcher stories, always welcome.

726
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: I learn a lot from these emails too, so I

727
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. Thanks to you guys so much for listening,

728
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: and thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome

729
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: song Exo Alumina. Creature features a production of iHeartRadio. For

730
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio,

731
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: app Apple podcasts or hey, guess what where have you

732
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: listened to your favorite shows. I'm not your mother. I

733
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: can't tell you what to do. I don't even feel

734
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: confident in telling you whether or not you should kill

735
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: spotted lantern flies. But don't let them hitchhike with you,

736
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: all Right, If you see a spotted lantern fly and

737
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: it's sticking out, it's a little proboscis and sort of

738
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: a hitchhiking gesture. Ignore them, leave them alone, don't let

739
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: them in your car, don't bring them down to another

740
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: US state. It's it's not going to be a good situation.

741
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 1: See you next Wednesday. Mm hmm