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Speaker 1: M H. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session of the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls Podcast. While many of us may be familiar

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Speaker 1: with post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, you might be

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Speaker 1: less familiar with complex post traumatic stress disorder or CPTSD.

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Speaker 1: To help us understand the differences between the two, and

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Speaker 1: to provide some context for CPTSD, today, I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: Dr Janelle Piper. Dr Piper is a licensed clinical psychologist,

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Speaker 1: assistant professor, and researcher committed to working alongside a vast

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Speaker 1: diversity of clients as they navigate their lives. She owns

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Speaker 1: two private practices Piper Psychology and Onward and Outwoard Psychotherapy

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Speaker 1: in downtown Decatur, Georgia. Dr Piper focuses on providing identity

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Speaker 1: and trauma informed therapy during the perinatal period and believes

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Speaker 1: in low barriers, solutions focused therapy rooted in evidence based practices.

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Speaker 1: Dr Piper and I discuss some of the causes of CPTSD,

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Speaker 1: how it impacts intra personal relationships, how we often overlook

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Speaker 1: experiences as traumatic. An example of what this might look

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Speaker 1: like based on the Duke of Hastings from Bridgetain, and

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Speaker 1: she shares some of her favorite resources for you to

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Speaker 1: dig in a little further. If there's something that resonates

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Speaker 1: with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us

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Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today,

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Speaker 1: Dr Piper. Of course, thank you for having me absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: I am really intrigued by your work. I think it's

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Speaker 1: so important. So much of your work focus is on

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Speaker 1: emerging adults, identity, information and trauma and resilience. And we

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Speaker 1: are going to be talking a lot today about the

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Speaker 1: difference between PTSD and c PTSD, which is complex post

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Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder. And I'd love for you to kind

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Speaker 1: of just start by telling us what are the differences

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Speaker 1: between the two. Yes, Well, when we're thinking about PTSD,

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Speaker 1: especially as it's diagnosed in the d S M five,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of our like bible for diagnoses, PTSD

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Speaker 1: tends to refer to a single incident that's called like

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Speaker 1: an index trauma, and especially simple PTSD might look like that.

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Speaker 1: When we're looking at complex PTSD, the major difference is

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Speaker 1: that it is the experience of repeated trauma that can

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Speaker 1: happen over time, over years. It's not this like single

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Speaker 1: isolated event, but it's the experience of ongoing trauma, abused

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Speaker 1: experiences of lack of safety that then can show up

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Speaker 1: with c PTSD or that complex PTSD. So there does

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Speaker 1: not need to be one activating event and then multiple

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Speaker 1: stressors after. It can just be accumulation of stressors and

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Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. Exactly exactly got it? And can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about like some of the nuances

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Speaker 1: between these, like how might you be able to differentiate

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Speaker 1: in terms of the diagnosis. Oh, yes, So when it

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Speaker 1: comes to complex PTSD, often what I've seen in my

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Speaker 1: experiences is that people have been misdiagnosed because they often

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Speaker 1: take for granted that their ongoing experiences, the life experiences

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Speaker 1: that they had, the place where they grew up, the

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Speaker 1: abuse that they might have experienced, they don't think of

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Speaker 1: that as trauma. They're just like, that was just my

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Speaker 1: childh ord, or that was just my life. So oftentimes

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Speaker 1: it can get missed in therapy or even in school

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Speaker 1: settings other settings, people are just not labeling it for

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Speaker 1: what it is. So when we're thinking about really distinguishing

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Speaker 1: between PTSD and complex PTSD, being able to pick up

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Speaker 1: on some of the things that will show up that

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Speaker 1: can give you a sign um that it c PTSD

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Speaker 1: is those being pulled back into memories, feeling like you're

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Speaker 1: stuck in loops, right like the early experiences that you've had,

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Speaker 1: that some of the trauma that you experienced kind of

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Speaker 1: keeps you in these cycles that you can't quite break

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Speaker 1: out of. Noticing kind of being on edge, hyper vigilant,

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Speaker 1: really independ it. I'm feeling like you can't really trust

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Speaker 1: to rely on other people. I'm having these beliefs about

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Speaker 1: yourself and the world around you. Sometimes it shows up

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Speaker 1: as agitation, anger, irritability, and sometimes we even see it too,

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Speaker 1: where people have a hard time accessing their emotions, like

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Speaker 1: this ongoing experience of having to be alert to keep

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Speaker 1: yourself safe when you're in this emotionally or physically unsafe

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Speaker 1: position on like for a long period of time, that

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Speaker 1: sometimes people will have trouble feeling and being able to

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Speaker 1: convey their emotions. So those are all kind of hints

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Speaker 1: that you can pull together if you're looking um for

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Speaker 1: c PTSD and really trying to label it correctly. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that you mentioned entopy for that is often

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Speaker 1: misdiagnosed because I'm thinking now to my own training, and

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Speaker 1: c PTSD is a fairly newer terminology, right, Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember getting any training in my grad program about

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Speaker 1: c PTSD, So I would imagine that lots of therapists

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Speaker 1: have not, you know, done any research or really know

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Speaker 1: very much about c PTSD, which is why they may

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Speaker 1: be missing it. Oh exactly, I mean, And my experience,

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Speaker 1: I did not get training of on being able to

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Speaker 1: identify or even the sort of therapies that are appropriate

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Speaker 1: for c PTSD. It's something that's getting more attention, especially

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Speaker 1: as we think about racial trauma as a potential complex

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Speaker 1: PTSD c PTSD diagnosis didn't even make it into the

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Speaker 1: d S M five, So it's not surprising that the

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Speaker 1: field is still sort of catching up, but being able

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Speaker 1: to identify it and then knowing what to do hmmm,

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Speaker 1: of course, of course. Yeah, So you mentioned earlier before

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Speaker 1: we started recording that in your work you are seeing

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Speaker 1: this kind of being represented more in your client load

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Speaker 1: in terms of black women presenting with CPCs D presentations,

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Speaker 1: And now you're mentioning the whole racial trauma right in

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Speaker 1: which we know, especially in this last year, lots of

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Speaker 1: people have you know, have been experiencing or re experiencing

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Speaker 1: some of these racially traumatic experiences. Can you say a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about that, and like it might look

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Speaker 1: like like if I'm listening to the podcast right now,

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Speaker 1: how might I know that this may be something that

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Speaker 1: I'm struggling with. That's a good question. So when we're thinking,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the work that I do, which tends to

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Speaker 1: be with black women, it's we're able to reflect on

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Speaker 1: what your early experiences were. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I've noticed is that black women, and this is

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Speaker 1: talking in broad terms of course, like there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different nuance there, but there there is the experience

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Speaker 1: when you're actually asked to reflect on what your childhood

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Speaker 1: was and what you experienced, that you kind of take

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Speaker 1: it as it is. You're just like, that's what, you know,

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Speaker 1: what happened happened. You know, I might have been exposed

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Speaker 1: to some some difficulty. I might have experienced racism. I

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Speaker 1: might have experienced constantly having to prove myself. I might

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Speaker 1: have experienced emotional abuse or verbal abuse. I might have

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Speaker 1: had been exposed to violence or a lot of instability.

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Speaker 1: That was what it was, right, and this sort of

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the experiences of these ongoing trauma,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we know is that the

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Speaker 1: more you avoid and the more that you don't actually

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Speaker 1: encounter and deal with and sort of really dive into

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Speaker 1: being able to explore that with support, the more that

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Speaker 1: it's going to continue to impact you in ways that

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Speaker 1: you may or may not even realize. Right, So, when

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Speaker 1: I'm working with my clients particularly and they're talking about

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Speaker 1: sort of feeling numb or feeling like there is this

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Speaker 1: disconnect between themselves and their identity, like this sort of

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Speaker 1: this a little bit of like what I think of

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Speaker 1: this fragmentation that can be assigned that there's things to

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Speaker 1: explore about ongoing experiences of strain. And you hit the

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Speaker 1: nail on the head when you talk about this year

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Speaker 1: in particular the dual like simultaneous traumas of the pandemic

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Speaker 1: and especially the disproportionate like impact that it's had on

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Speaker 1: black and brown communities. That's a complex trauma, like the

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Speaker 1: anticipation of death and being exposed to the threat of

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Speaker 1: death and those that you love and in yourself. That's

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Speaker 1: an experience of trauma. And then if you layer on

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Speaker 1: top of it this racial justice reckoning that we're having

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Speaker 1: and the just the absolute horror of this last year

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Speaker 1: of what we went through as a nation and as

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Speaker 1: black folks, then you have that other layer, so it

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Speaker 1: can activate some of that childhood stuff that you might

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Speaker 1: have not addressed, and then you kind of have this

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Speaker 1: perfect storm of just really feeling out of control, feeling overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: and having some of those complex PTSD reactions or trauma reactions.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, and I think that that is frequently what

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Speaker 1: happens when people like have these reactions that they feel

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Speaker 1: like are stronger than what they quote unquote typically would

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Speaker 1: be right so you kind of find yourself and crying uncontrollably,

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Speaker 1: or you're feeling super isolated and you're not quite sure

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Speaker 1: or where it's coming from because it doesn't feel proportional

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Speaker 1: to like the activating event. Then, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: it is typically a good suggestion to kind of dig

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Speaker 1: into some childhood stuff to see if something from there

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Speaker 1: is being reactivated. Oh yes, I like that was perfectly said,

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Speaker 1: because I often think for me, when I'm with a

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Speaker 1: client and they describe a reaction that's outside to the

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Speaker 1: activating event, whether they're like, I just you know, I

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Speaker 1: completely I was furious, or I was sobbing, or I

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Speaker 1: just like it and it was it. It was something

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't have activated a response that strongly. That's a

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Speaker 1: good sign of let's stick deep and see what's underneath that.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So that's a pie for I would love

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Speaker 1: to go back, because I think we talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about like childhood experiences, but I don't know that we

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Speaker 1: always like are clear about what kinds of things we're

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Speaker 1: looking for in childhood, right, So, what are some of

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Speaker 1: these early childhood experiences that we're talking about that might

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Speaker 1: be to a later kind of CPTSD response. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's a wide range. And I often think about

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Speaker 1: the good place to start are what we call um

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Speaker 1: adverse childhood experiences or aces. So there was a big

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Speaker 1: research study that brought together these aces that can happen

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Speaker 1: in childhood, and they can range from verbal or emotional abuse,

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Speaker 1: which might be like being yelled at, screened at, being

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Speaker 1: really denigrated like by somebody, really harsh verbal treatment, being

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Speaker 1: being shut down, being cursed at. Some people take for granted,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's just how my family talks. That can

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Speaker 1: be for a child and experience of emotional or verbal abuse,

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Speaker 1: and that might also include being an environment that felt unsafe. Right,

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Speaker 1: So if you were in a neighborhood or had experiences

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Speaker 1: where you were exposed to violence or where you felt

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Speaker 1: like you, you know, couldn't walk around safely, that can

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Speaker 1: be an adverse childhood experience or one of those aces.

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Speaker 1: And and it can also range to things like physical abuse,

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Speaker 1: the things that people more traditionally think about like physical abuse,

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse, somebody who you know inappropriately touched you or

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Speaker 1: have experiences of sexual assault. And then we have those

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Speaker 1: the experiences of neglect as well. So if you didn't

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Speaker 1: have adults who were looking out for you, who were

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Speaker 1: keeping you safe, that experience of having to really take

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Speaker 1: care of yourself. Those could all be traumatic childhood experiences

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Speaker 1: and ones that we might not always think of as

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Speaker 1: a trauma. Mm hmmm. Yeah. Especially I think the neglect

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Speaker 1: piece right, because I think that there are some things

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Speaker 1: that people kind of readily accept as neglect, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: like if you have been left home, you know, for

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Speaker 1: weekends at a time with no one knowlse supervision or

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Speaker 1: something like that, I think we can kind of say, yes,

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Speaker 1: that feels neglectful. But I think that there are ways

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Speaker 1: that neglect shows up in smaller ways that we sometimes miss.

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Speaker 1: M hm yeah. Yes, Well, when I'm working with folks

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Speaker 1: to one of the things that I try to make

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Speaker 1: clear is that, you know, most of my clients really

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Speaker 1: can understand what they're like parents or their families struggled with.

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Speaker 1: So being able to label something as trauma doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that you're saying that your parents or your caregiver was

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Speaker 1: a bad person and or that they were doing it purposefully. Oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: people are protective of those childhood experiences because they're like,

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Speaker 1: my mom didn't have a choice, you know, she was,

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Speaker 1: she was in a situation where she had to work

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Speaker 1: those multiple jobs because otherwise there wasn't gonna be food

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Speaker 1: on the table. So one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: do is that especially you know, I'm not in the

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Speaker 1: business of trying to you know, trying to do disrespect

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Speaker 1: or say that people's families or their caregiving environments were

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Speaker 1: trying to hurt them. Oftentimes people do it unintentionally, or

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Speaker 1: it was based on circumstances and societal factors that are

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Speaker 1: beyond the control of the people. So being able to

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Speaker 1: like label and name it doesn't mean that you're saying

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Speaker 1: that the people who you loved tore the people who

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Speaker 1: you have these complex relationships with weren't doing the best

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Speaker 1: they could with what they had. Mm hmmmm. So maybe

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Speaker 1: we can get into this a little bit when we

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Speaker 1: talk about like how you might work with the client

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Speaker 1: struggling with c PTSD. But I think I've seen this

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Speaker 1: come up when people didn't try to have these conversations

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Speaker 1: with their parents, right, So maybe they have been in

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Speaker 1: therapy and have learned, Wow, like that was a much

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Speaker 1: bigger deal than I thought, or I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: that impacted me in this way, and then a part

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Speaker 1: of the work they want to do is to go

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Speaker 1: back and have this conversation with their parents, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't often go well because that defensiveness like you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: you know, typically rises up. Mm hmmm, yep. We can

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Speaker 1: definitely dive into that. Just let me know when Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll put a pin in that so we can come back.

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Speaker 1: But I'm really glad that you brought up the eight

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Speaker 1: scores because I was thinking that as you were talking, like,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if there's some correlation between c PTSD and

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Speaker 1: the adverseild experiences scores, and so are the a survey

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Speaker 1: something that you might use to kind of make this

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Speaker 1: diagnosis of CPTs c Oh, Yes, definitely. I think being

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Speaker 1: able to pull some of that ACE information can be

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Speaker 1: really helpful. And I've increasingly moved so there is a

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Speaker 1: screening tool you can use for ASIS, and I've moved

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Speaker 1: to doing that conversationally and as part of the work

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Speaker 1: and as part of what we call like that first

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Speaker 1: appointment that you have with a therapist where they're doing

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Speaker 1: an intake and they're asking you questions and they're learning

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Speaker 1: about what's bringing you into therapy. I fold in the

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Speaker 1: ASIS as a part of that to be able to

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Speaker 1: have it as a nuanced conversation, and I found that

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Speaker 1: that's been way more effective than when I in the

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Speaker 1: past just gave that survey. And so that is one

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Speaker 1: way to pull some information is to go through and

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Speaker 1: look at those different A scores. What do you think

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Speaker 1: it's been more effective for you to give it conversationally

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Speaker 1: as opposed to like just giving the work eat. Oh yeah, Well, firstly,

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Speaker 1: I think that being able to talk about your like experiences,

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Speaker 1: your childhood experiences with another human being just feels can

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Speaker 1: feel more validating, feel more supportive. And I think that

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Speaker 1: from the time that you start your intaking assessment, you're

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Speaker 1: set starting your therapeutic work. So you want to set

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Speaker 1: a tone that I'm not going to leave you to

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Speaker 1: be able to explore, like to explore these things on

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Speaker 1: your own, Like this is something that we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: doing together, We're gonna be doing it at your pace.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna rush you. I'm not going to force

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Speaker 1: you to do anything that you're not ready to do yet.

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Speaker 1: So it's able to set that tone from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and it gives me the ability to pick up on

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Speaker 1: when we're doing too much, too fast, right, Like it

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Speaker 1: can feel like if you're going through it and you're like, yep,

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Speaker 1: this happened to me, This happened to me. This happened

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Speaker 1: to me, This happened to me. That can feel pretty overwhelming,

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Speaker 1: or you could even just shut down, like you start

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Speaker 1: to just do it and then turn off your emotions.

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Speaker 1: So it's helpful for doing it conversationally because I can

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Speaker 1: pick up on that and then as well, you um,

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Speaker 1: I think that it gives me the ability to ask

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Speaker 1: more quite questions in the moment, So rather than having

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Speaker 1: the somebody do the ass and then have to come

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Speaker 1: back and go back through and expand on it, we

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Speaker 1: can really just then much more fluently, like go into

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Speaker 1: more detail as feels right in the moment, and be

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Speaker 1: able to kind of like be able to come back

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Speaker 1: and bookmark things that we can get to at a

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Speaker 1: slower pace as we're building trust, as we're building skills,

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Speaker 1: as we're building the relationship. So I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: been much more effective now that I've shifted to doing

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Speaker 1: it that way. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And it made me

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Speaker 1: think about your earlier comment that you know, sometimes we

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Speaker 1: don't always label childhood experiences as traumatic. So depending on

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Speaker 1: how the question is asked, I might say, like, no,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any childhood trauma. But then when you

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Speaker 1: ask it with all of this context, then we can

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Speaker 1: easily identify it as such exact actually exactly And even still,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I still think a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: of trauma is something that's for veterans, like in a

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Speaker 1: war zone, right. I mean, so when people hear the

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Speaker 1: word trauma, they're like, WHOA, that's a big word, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I would call that a trauma.

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Speaker 1: And so even when I'm working with my clients, we

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily use the word trauma. We might get to

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Speaker 1: a point where people self identify that way and they're

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Speaker 1: able to say, yeah, this was a trauma, and I

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Speaker 1: understand what that means. But for many people, they there

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Speaker 1: are other ways that they think about it, and there

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Speaker 1: are other ways that they label and that's legit, Like

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Speaker 1: we can we can use the language that resonates with

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Speaker 1: you and fit it into a model that can offer

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Speaker 1: the support that you need. Um. So yeah, being able

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Speaker 1: to to use language that actually resonates with the client

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Speaker 1: makes a difference to m M. Yeah, thank you. So

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Speaker 1: much for that, Dr Piper. So you've already mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of these early childhood experiences, and the Harvard Center

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Speaker 1: on the Developing Child has done research studies showing that

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Speaker 1: from pregnancy through early childhood, all of the environments in

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Speaker 1: which children live and learn and the quality of their

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Speaker 1: relationships with adults and caregivers have a significant impact on

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Speaker 1: these cognitive, emotional, and social development, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: what you've talked about. And I love for you to

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Speaker 1: just talk a little bit more about your work with

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Speaker 1: the GPS the Global Pathways Study, to talk about how

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Speaker 1: this is disproportionate in black communities, black and brown communities,

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Speaker 1: because we know so much of you know, so much

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Speaker 1: of the world is really kind of set up to

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Speaker 1: be against us, even from birth right, And so I

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Speaker 1: would just love to hear about your work with that

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Speaker 1: study and how maybe some of that has been illuminated there. Oh. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so I think, and I always like to start by

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Speaker 1: saying that I try to really take an asset based

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Speaker 1: approach or like a strength based approach in my research

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Speaker 1: that's also very much, so honest and contextualized in the

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Speaker 1: different barriers that people of color, black people face, and

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Speaker 1: so one of the things when we look at address

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Speaker 1: childhood experience. This the research really demonstrates that black from

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Speaker 1: like you said, from infancy are more likely to have

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Speaker 1: these higher A scores and have more of these adverse

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Speaker 1: childhood experiences. Now, as a researcher, what I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: is why, Right. So then as soon as you kind

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Speaker 1: of dig under the surface of that and you start

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Speaker 1: to ask what's behind that question, you start to see

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Speaker 1: the intersection with racism and institutions and systems. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the ACE scores are tied to things

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Speaker 1: like socio economic status and poverty. So if you have

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Speaker 1: a group that is has been historically marginalized and has

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Speaker 1: less access to resources and is more likely to be

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Speaker 1: in poverty, then you're going to be in a situation

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Speaker 1: where there is going to be higher exposure to violence

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Speaker 1: in the community, less access to resources and support, and

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Speaker 1: and and you're going to have more of those adverse experiences.

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Speaker 1: Is just gonna happen. Um, So I think that there's

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Speaker 1: this intersection between like what happens societally and then what

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Speaker 1: happens in families and in these individual microcosms, right, And

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Speaker 1: so similarly, what also ends up happening. Is this like

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Speaker 1: what we call intergenerational trauma. So oftentimes we learned how

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Speaker 1: to parent by how we were parented. They don't give us,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't sign up and take a course.

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Speaker 1: You don't you know, get a degree in parenting. You

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Speaker 1: often use the models that you had around you. So unintentionally,

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Speaker 1: some people perpetuate the same experiences that they had as children.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know any better, right, they might use like

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Speaker 1: spanking or corporal punishment because that's how they were taught

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Speaker 1: that you keep children's behavior in line. They might, you know,

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Speaker 1: rely on those the tools that they saw their caregivers have.

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Speaker 1: So then you have that second piece of like this

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Speaker 1: intergenerational passing down of trauma. Particularly if people didn't understand

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Speaker 1: or work through the trauma that they experienced, it can

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Speaker 1: show up in your parenting. To write, all that pain

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Speaker 1: can show up in your parenting. And then there's this

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Speaker 1: third piece, and this is where I feel like you, Dr.

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Speaker 1: Joy are making a huge difference. Is the access to

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Speaker 1: really culturally informed and attune mental health care that understands

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Speaker 1: and is able to appropriately address this complex trauma because

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Speaker 1: it is so tied in with some of the most

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Speaker 1: intimate aspects of our experiences of being human, like our childhood,

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Speaker 1: how we were parented, our identity, our sense of self,

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Speaker 1: our relationships. So you really need somebody who you're working

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Speaker 1: with therapeutically or even the people who are developing the

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Speaker 1: interventions and the research to develop the appropriate therapies, to

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Speaker 1: understand culture and to really focus on how does all

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Speaker 1: of this fit in and express in different ways? How

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Speaker 1: can I make sure that this is a an approach

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Speaker 1: that's gonna work for this human being who's going to

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Speaker 1: be informed by who they are, who they their complex

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Speaker 1: different layers of identity. So with the GPS, that's work

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Speaker 1: that I do, like during this period of emerging identity

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Speaker 1: is what we call it with college students, and so

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Speaker 1: we're really watching like and looking at growth and change

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Speaker 1: over time in college students and the different experiences that

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Speaker 1: shape who they are, and trauma is one of those

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Speaker 1: experiences that can shape who we are. Mm hmmm. So

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Speaker 1: I love to hear more about your work with college students,

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Speaker 1: like what prompted you to study that group in particular.

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Speaker 1: So with my work with my college students, I have

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Speaker 1: two branches of research. The work that I do with

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Speaker 1: college students. I got interested in because I see higher

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Speaker 1: education is one space that can change the world. Right.

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Speaker 1: You have this environment where we know that people are

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Speaker 1: exposed to more diversity than they've ever experienced before. It

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Speaker 1: tends to be in the college experience, you are exposed

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Speaker 1: to new ideas, new people. I mean, you also have

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Speaker 1: this space where people are searching for and trying to

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Speaker 1: determine what role they're going to play in the world. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so I see the higher ed experience as this

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Speaker 1: time where we can really shape the future leaders and

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Speaker 1: citizens of the world, and that it's really important to

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Speaker 1: understand what are those experiences that help them develop empathy,

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Speaker 1: that helped them develop self awareness, that shape the way

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Speaker 1: that they think about others, about the groups that they

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Speaker 1: choose to engage with, the cultural competence that they develop.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I really gravitated towards this work because

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Speaker 1: I'm a professor as well as a therapist, and I

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Speaker 1: saw that these college years that these young people just

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Speaker 1: come in and they are hungry and just like open

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Speaker 1: in ways that oftentimes it's really rare. It's like a

432
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: very rare period of time where you're being you're forming

433
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: your identity you're forming who you're going to be, and

434
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: so as a researcher, I'm really interested in that process. Yeah,

435
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: I mean, having a background in college student mental health,

436
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: I definitely echo with your thing, right, And I think

437
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: it is also prime for them to be kind of

438
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: on learning maybe some of the things that were harmful

439
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: from their childhood, right. And so you see a lot

440
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 1: of that happening in this period too. Oh yes, definitely,

441
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: And when you're in this environment and I feel like

442
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: and it can happen in different spaces as well. It's

443
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: not just in higher education, Like during this period of time,

444
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: people might experience it as they're working, I mean, as

445
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: they're part of technical school. It's really this period where

446
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: in America at least, you're moving away from your family

447
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: and you have this ability to reflect on what aspects

448
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: of my upbringing do I want to hold onto, which

449
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: ones are foundational to me, and which parts might I

450
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: want to like work through or move away from. You're

451
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: having conversations with different people and it's the space where

452
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: you're like, the way that I saw the world where

453
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: I came from, it's only one way of billions of

454
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: different ways. So you really have this eye opening moment

455
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, yeah, that was just my whole

456
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: like that was my experience, but that's not the only

457
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: experience out there. Mm hmmm. We'll be back with more

458
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: from Dr Piper right after the break. So I would

459
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: love to get into now, Dr Piper. So you and

460
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: I both watched bridget in correct. Yeah, Yeah, that was

461
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: one of my New Year's Holiday kind of beings watches,

462
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: like I think, like a lot of people, and so

463
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: you know, I think we can kind of clearly he

464
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: illustrated some of the things that you've talked about with

465
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: the Duke of Hastings, right, So we see this very

466
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: tenuous relationship he's had with his father, his mother died

467
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: in childbirth, and so I would just love to hear

468
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: if you are able to kind of identify some of

469
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: the behaviors that he does display in his relationship with

470
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: Dafney and how that maybe is consistent with like a

471
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: c PTSD framework. Yes, no, I I think that there's

472
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: a lot there that can that can sort of be

473
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: signals for that complex PTSD. And like you said, sometimes

474
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: that that shaping trauma can be you know, grief for

475
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: a loss that that that child might not even necessarily remember, right.

476
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: So some of the things that really showed up that

477
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: seemed clear was the profound decision about your relationships, especially

478
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. So our early childhood experiences are pretty attached

479
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: to how we engage with our romantic partners, what we

480
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: call attachment, Like your early childhood attachment can really shape

481
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: how you then later engage with your partners and in

482
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. So we definitely see that like sort of

483
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: some of the difficulty with trust, some of that like

484
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: feeling of like not needing control, right, needing to feel

485
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: like you're in control of situations, having difficulty with like

486
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: intimacy and really being vulnerable and seen and known. And

487
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: we definitely saw that show up some of his relationship

488
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: with Daphne and in thinking in other ways those early

489
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: experiences of the emotional abuse that he experienced with his father.

490
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: So um, I know of the episode where you see

491
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: the judgment and the rejection from his father because of

492
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: his stutter as being a really powerful shaping experience that

493
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: he made a very profound decision about not wanting to

494
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: ever have children. Be As like we were talking about before,

495
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: there seems to be some fear that he's going to

496
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: pass down or engage in um some of the same behaviors,

497
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: or that he's afraid of what intimacy looks like in

498
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: that way. But I think that really one of the

499
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: things that was really hard about Britain was that one

500
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: of the things that ended up as I watched it

501
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: more that was really hard for me to see was

502
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: that it kind of perpetuated the same trope that trauma

503
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: can be resolved just by love, right, and that even

504
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: that the encounter of you know, they didn't come to

505
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: a space of like honestly talking about those trauma that

506
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: the trauma together. I guess back, I don't know, it's

507
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: like back in the back of the day if they

508
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: would have got a couple of therapy or something, but

509
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: the it was sort of re traumatizing in some sort

510
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: of ways the approach that Daphne took. I won't give

511
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: spoilers for people who haven't seen it yet, but I

512
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: do think that I kind of by the end, I

513
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: was left a little unsatisfied, a little bit kind of

514
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: sad to see that it sort of took that same

515
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: approach that that if you just love somebody enough that

516
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: that resolves the trauma. M M. I see that was

517
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: something that I missed. Dr Pipers. I'm really glad that

518
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: you brought that out. So can you say more about

519
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: like that trope but also what that work looks like

520
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: to resolve the trauma. Yeah, so I know that one

521
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: of the things that the young folks I hear are

522
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: getting more emotional intelligence on our things like trauma bonding

523
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: and in relationships. And one of the very sort of

524
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: like age old tropes that we see in romantic movies

525
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: and even romantic comedies is this idea that there's somebody,

526
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: particularly it tends to be a man who has like

527
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: this really traumatic history and that if you hang in

528
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: there and if you love and if you provide the support,

529
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: that that's going to resolve and fix it where you

530
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: and I know in therapy that trauma resolution and trauma

531
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: therapy is an ongoing process that's done and it's often

532
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: done an individual work, right that being able to work

533
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: to identify your experiences of trauma, to develop the skills

534
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: to emotionally regulate while you're while you're talking about and

535
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: being able to really explore that trauma, and oftentimes a

536
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: structured way. So like, there are some specific types of

537
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: therapy like prolonged exposure or cognitive processing therapy or e

538
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: M d R that people do that are specific types

539
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: of therapy that they work with a trained, specialized clinician

540
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: over time to be able to learn skills to identify

541
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: and address that trauma. And that oftentimes when you are

542
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: are doing couples work, when you're engaging with that with

543
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: your partner, you're learning different ways that your experience of trauma,

544
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: the experiences that you had growing up before you met

545
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: your partner, are showing up in different ways to engage

546
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: with it. That feels more adaptive, that feels more in

547
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: line with the direction you want to move in as

548
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: a couple. But oftentimes that trauma work you're doing individually,

549
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: right that another person can't do that work for you.

550
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: They can't fix or heal that for you, no matter

551
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: how much they might want to. UM. So that was

552
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: something that I noticed in Bridgartain that kind of you know,

553
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: gave me a little pause. M hm. You know, as

554
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: you mentioned that, Dr Piper, I'm thinking about how even

555
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: that tendency to think that you can love somebody through

556
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: trauma maybe a result of your own early childhood experiences,

557
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: Like if I were just a good enough child, right,

558
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: or if I did this thing or if I was perfect,

559
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: then Mom wouldn't have struggled that way, right? And so

560
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: how some of that even shows up in our adult relationships?

561
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: Oh exactly? So? Can you say more so? We kind

562
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: of use the Duke of Hastings as an example, but

563
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: I love to kind of just, you know, go more

564
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: broadly thinking about what are some of the other ways

565
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: that CPTSD shows up in our relationships with other people,

566
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: especially when you talked about like having difficulty like even

567
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: accessing some emotions, Like some of that feels missing, Like

568
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 1: how how does that look in real life? M Yeah, so,

569
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: I mean when it comes down to trauma, it's rude.

570
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: It's the response that we have to protect ourselves. Right,

571
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 1: So we have the central nervous system response when we

572
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: experience a threat that's wired into our bodies. That puts

573
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: us on the defensive to protect ourselves. So you might

574
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: be more alert, right if there is a tiger coming

575
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: at you, Right, you're gonna be on high alert, your

576
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: heart is gonna be going fast, You're gonna be paying

577
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: attention to all of those different threats. Now, the issue

578
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: with drama and after you've experienced this space of feeling unsafe,

579
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: is that that reaction never quite turns off. Right, You

580
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: have that that experience of never really being able to

581
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: get out of gear, like you're more hyper vigilant. As

582
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: we're thinking about how that might show up in relationships,

583
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: then as we're thinking about in romantic relationships, where it

584
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: often shows up is in conflict. Right, any time where

585
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: you feel unsafe, you feel like there might be something

586
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: that reminds you of a threat. Right, and again, it's

587
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: like you said earlier, doctor Joy. You might also notice

588
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: that it's like kind of outsized to the threat at hand.

589
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: So you might have a question or a conflict that

590
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: shows up about like trust, like where were you? Like

591
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: why didn't you call me back when I reached out?

592
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 1: But your reaction feels really big, like you might get

593
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: really angry. You might have a really hard time being

594
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: able to name when you were feeling worried or sad

595
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: without it exploding into a big fight, like you don't

596
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: have the tools to be able to deal with it.

597
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: In another way, um, you might also notice that you

598
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: just shut down, like what we often call like the stonewalling,

599
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: where that whenever you feel that threat or whenever you

600
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: feel that instability that you just turn off the emotions

601
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: and you like you can't be accessed right, and you

602
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: can't even access your own emotions, So that numbness that

603
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: withdrawal might be a sign. Another sign might be where yeah,

604
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: you don't feel like you have the tools to be

605
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: able to talk about it without getting really emotionally off kilter,

606
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: really disregulated, so you kind of create this experience of

607
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: just feeling out of control. And oftentimes people will say

608
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: that they might experience that, but their part and are

609
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: also has trauma that's activated. So it's just like fire

610
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: on fire, right, you have like fuel and fire and

611
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: it keeps on growing, and then people aren't able to

612
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: really get back to a space where they can connect

613
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: and talk in this like feeling like feelings of security

614
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: and safety and stability. So those are things that can

615
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: show up in romantic relationships. And oftentimes when I'm working

616
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: with clients will say that they noticed this cycle just

617
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: keeps on happening, like they keep on ending up in

618
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: these relationships where the same thing keeps happening, And when

619
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: people come to talk with me, they might be looking

620
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: at the symptoms or what I often think of as

621
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: the smoke, right, and they're like, I don't know why

622
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: this keeps happening? Why do I keep ending up with

623
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: these really dysfunctional relationships where the fire might be something

624
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: like from your childhood, it might be that trauma. And

625
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: we can all day talk about how to look for

626
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: different partners, how to accept love, but if we haven't

627
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: resolved the underlying trauma, that underlying fire, then that's smoke

628
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: is gonna keep coming back, and not feeling that's stuck

629
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: in a cycle is going to keep happening. M m. Yeah,

630
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: Because as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, if the

631
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: only way you've known to react when you are feeling

632
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: unsafe is to have these like huge reactions, right, you

633
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: may not see them as huge, right. So maybe when

634
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking with you as my therapist, you can say like, oh,

635
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: that reaction seems interesting given what happened, right, let's talk

636
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: about it. But in my life I might just feel like, oh,

637
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: this is just how I react, you know, so I

638
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: think it's interesting. That's only in therapy or whether or

639
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: somebody else calling it out, do we even recognize that

640
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: our reactions don't always match what has happened, oh exactly,

641
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: And especially is like the communities that you're a part

642
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: of have normalized that because that's what they knew, right,

643
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: So you might even say, yeah, nobody else hasn't even

644
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: told me that that is, you know, maybe outsized. I

645
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: didn't have any alternatives. I didn't see anybody modeling different.

646
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: Your stay tuned for more of our conversation after the break.

647
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: So what would some of that work look like? Dr Piper?

648
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: So what kind of work you know, because you've talked

649
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: about like E M, d R and other kinds of things.

650
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: And my understanding that is that those therapies are more

651
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: effective for like an actual like event like a car

652
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 1: accident or something like that. What's something like that work

653
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: on like these kind of childhood traumatic experiences? Yeah, I

654
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: feel like this is where there's a huge gap in

655
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: the field. Um that I think that this is the

656
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: more in deeper I go into this work, I feel

657
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: like this is a gap. There's some work that's being done.

658
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: There's like a complex PTSD workbook that has some helpful

659
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: frameworks for people who are addressing and being able to

660
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: adept deify a complex PTSD. And but really when it

661
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: comes to like the gold standard evidence based practices that

662
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: we think about like the cognitive processing therapy, the prolonged exposure,

663
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: all of those sorts of therapies that are considered like

664
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: the gold standard for PTSD. Like you said, they were

665
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: designed for single events or index traumas, right, which is

666
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: sort of it could be frustrating. So what I found

667
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: is that some of those therapies can be used where

668
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: you're identifying. You know, you might be able to focus

669
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: on one index trauma, but of course it has themes

670
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: that are can can be connected to other experiences that

671
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: you had and that that could be traumatic as well. Um,

672
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: so you can kind of modify some of those to

673
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: be more broad and encompassing. Some of the work as

674
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: well is really will happen as a part of the

675
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: therapeutic process. So being able to start to develop language

676
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: for identify, find different experiences that happened, being able to

677
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: talk through them. There's some narrative therapies that can be helpful.

678
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: Being able to develop coping skills as you're exploring different

679
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: experiences and giving equipping clients with the skills to be

680
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: able to deal with emotions that might come up and

681
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: have alternative ways of processing, so you might be able

682
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: to do things like mindfulness, meditation, those sorts of things

683
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: can be helpful for complex PTSD. But again, I really

684
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: feel like this is where there is a gap in

685
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: the field, particularly when it comes to thinking about the

686
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: experience of complex PTSD in a really identity and culturally

687
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: informed way. Because somewhere, I think work needs to be done.

688
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to put on my list of things to research,

689
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: developing an evidence based practice for complex PTSD for black

690
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: women on my to do list. Yeah, I mean, because

691
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, anytime there's a gap in the general literature,

692
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: then you know that we are even further push to

693
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: the margins. Right, So if there's not somebody kind of

694
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: studying it overall, then there definitely is not the culturally

695
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: responsive treatments that would be most helpful for black women. Yeah,

696
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying there's not anything out There's definitely

697
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: people who are exploring this, but it's definitely, like you said,

698
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: it's still younger in the field, Like, we still have

699
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: a really long way to go. And I'm glad that

700
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,959
Speaker 1: we're having this conversation because, yeah, I think that there's

701
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: still so much work we can do. Mm hmmm. So

702
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: I want to go back to our earlier point about

703
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: like maybe having some of these difficult conversations with parents.

704
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: And so even if we use like the Duke of Hastings,

705
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: you know, since we talked about him earlier, like if

706
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: he were to want to have this conversation with his

707
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: father right about how some of his childhood experiences impacted him,

708
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: or if any of us wanted to have a conversation

709
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: with a parent about how early childhood experiences have impacted us. One,

710
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: is this something that you would suggest? And then too,

711
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: how might you be able to navigate that knowing some

712
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: of the defensiveness that might come up from the parent. Yes,

713
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: So I mean the answer that first question, is it

714
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: something I would suggest? I think it really depends on

715
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: the individual. Right. Firstly, the most important thing is going

716
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: to always be safety, Like there's there's some instances where

717
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: being able to really talk to or confront the person

718
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: who intentionally or unintentionally traumatized you is not going to

719
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: be physically safe, or it isn't going to be emotionally safe.

720
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: So that would be one of the first things that

721
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: we explored. Is this going to do more harm or

722
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: is it going to be something that has the potential

723
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: for good? And I think that that really is a

724
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: space where being able to explore that with your therapist

725
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: can be really helpful. And being able to talk about

726
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: what you're looking for and why, what the experience might

727
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: be like, what you can expect, even going through things

728
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: like whole place right with your clinition can be really helpful. UM.

729
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: So that would be the first thing that I would

730
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: look for, is this something that is safe for you

731
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: to do emotionally and physically, and then that would then

732
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: be a collaborative decision that you would make together with

733
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: your therapist. But of course, for me when I'm working

734
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: with somebody who has trauma, one of the biggest pieces

735
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: is empowerment. Like you're the expert on you. I can

736
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: be there and say what might come up and what

737
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: my concerns might be and make recommendations. But at the

738
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: end of the day, trauma often takes power away from us.

739
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: So I'm always really conscientious to try to be aware

740
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: of that this is your choice, you have agency in it,

741
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: and I'll be there, you know, to process whatever happens, good,

742
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: bad or ugly, Like I'm gonna still show up and

743
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: we'll be able to still kind of work through whatever occurs. Um.

744
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: So that would definitely go into my recommendations. So I

745
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: know that was kind of a dodgy therapist response, but

746
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: so the results would be maybe, but I recommend to.

747
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: But the second piece of if you aren't a place

748
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: where you are able to have that conversation, I think

749
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: you hit it earlier, Dr Joy when you said, don't

750
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: be surprised if the person you're speaking to still doesn't

751
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: have the skills to be able to hear with what

752
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: you're saying without defensiveness. Right. Oftentimes, the knee jerk response

753
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: that humans experience when they hear something that is, you know,

754
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: something that they did that that was hurtful or harmful,

755
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: particularly for their child, that can bring up a lot

756
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: of defensiveness that can show up is anger, It can

757
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: show up as avoidance, It can show up as minimization, right, deflecting,

758
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 1: and that those are all responses that are showing that, yeah,

759
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: this is something that's heavy for you to hear and

760
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: that you might automatically get defensive. So this is a

761
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: space where you know, if the person is willing to

762
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: do a facilitated conversation with a therapist, that can be

763
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: helpful because they can provide some support word to be

764
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: able to help the other person use some active listening,

765
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: like where you're able to hear what the person is

766
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: saying non defensively, sit with some of the emotions that

767
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: come up and be able to hold them without shutting down. Right.

768
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: And sometimes people just haven't yet developed the skills to

769
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: be able to know how to respond and how to

770
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: to really listen to and make space for your experience. Right.

771
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: But then on the e flip side, some people have

772
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: been able to do the work since their childhood and

773
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: like since they were you know, since that time, and

774
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: they're able to hear what you're saying and to be

775
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: able to talk about Okay, I hear this and make

776
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: amends and figure out different ways of moving forward. And

777
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: I've definitely seen a whole you know, as people have

778
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: talked with you know, their families or caregivers or people

779
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: in their life. There's a whole range of different ways

780
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: that people respond. And the hope is that over time

781
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: they're a well to hear what the person is coming

782
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: back and telling them was their experience, because that's something

783
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: that can be extremely powerful and extremely validating and transformative.

784
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: To be able to hear, yeah, that's what happened and

785
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, right, Like that wasn't right. You didn't deserve that. Um.

786
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: That can make a huge difference for someone. Yeah, And

787
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: I think that that is what people often hope is

788
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: going to happen, right, is that they're going to have

789
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: this conversation and somebody's gonna say, I'm so sorry. You know,

790
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: I did the best I could at the time, right,

791
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: And you definitely could get that experience. But I think

792
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: that happens most often when like the parent has had

793
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 1: some therapy, are done some work on their own, right,

794
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: Like I think for most of you, they hear this

795
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: in they just here, I was a bad parent, right,

796
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: And so I think a part of this has to

797
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: be you really understanding what are you hoping to gain

798
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: from having this conversation? Oh? Yes, that's the more rare

799
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: circumstance where somebody has done all that work and they

800
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: can hear it, they can apologize, and they can make space. Right.

801
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: That's probably rare because like you said, I mean, you know,

802
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm a mother myself and I was thinking this morning,

803
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: I had to apologize to my son, and that can

804
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 1: be feel really hard, especially when we're given this message

805
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: as parents that we need to be perfect. So if yeah,

806
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: anybody who is listening to this who is a parent

807
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: who did have an experience where they felt like they

808
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: didn't live in line with the values that they wanted

809
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: for their child, or that there's something that got in

810
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: the way. I do think that that experience of being

811
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: able to do your own work, being able to get

812
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: that therapeutic support, and then being able to really make

813
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: space to apologize can be transformative for a child. But yeah,

814
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: it is hard when we have this culture where it's like, yeah,

815
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: that's ancred history, move on, let go, right, Why are

816
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: you bringing that all up again? Like why do we

817
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: have to keep talking about this? Like you know that

818
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: I did the best that I could can feel like

819
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: an attack, And oftentimes the fact that somebody is coming

820
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 1: back to have this conversation with you is a signal

821
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: that they don't want to let go of the relationship.

822
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: They want to stay in it. Right that why otherwise

823
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: would they even go through the pain of going back

824
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: down that road? Right? So that's a part for you

825
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: just mentioned, like having to apologize to your little one.

826
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 1: That's something that I actively try to do as well.

827
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: And I know that a lot of your work is

828
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: also with black couples who are kind of approaching parenthood

829
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: are different transitions in their families. Can you talk a

830
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: little bit about like your work in terms of CPTs

831
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: D and how they maybe helps you to help your

832
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: clients to think about like some of these things that

833
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: might come up in parenting, right, or how they can

834
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: respond to their own trauma, because we know sometimes like

835
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: some of those things don't even get unshaken in us

836
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,439
Speaker 1: until we become parent or responsible for another person. Right,

837
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear just a little bit about what

838
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: that looks like, and you know, some things for parents

839
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: or parents it is to be kind of thinking about

840
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: oh yes, yes, so thinking about this. So when I'm

841
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 1: working with folks like to that transition of parenthood, because

842
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: sometimes people are like, how does you know identity and

843
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: the transition of parenthood and trauma fit together, because like

844
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: those are my areas of expertise, and I'm like, they're

845
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: so tied together, Like they're so deeply tied together, because

846
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: we know that when we become parents, it is so

847
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: all encompassing and it it really can bring up things

848
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 1: for you that you didn't even know we're there, right,

849
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: And especially if you have experiences of trauma that you

850
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: haven't been able to have the time to invest in exploring.

851
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: It can pop up in ways that you weren't expecting.

852
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: Like an example would be if I'm working with a

853
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: client who had experienced like sexual abuse as a child,

854
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: and then they noticed that they are very much so

855
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: angry and protective and having a lot of you know,

856
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: even emotionally or verbally abusive of their child when they

857
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: get to the age that they were when they were

858
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: sexually abused, and feeling really protective about you know, how

859
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: they are well when they're around boys or making those

860
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: sorts of things. So that's the example of if you

861
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: have this unresolved trauma because of what happened to you,

862
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 1: it might pop up in your relationship with your child,

863
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: right because you're doing work and you understand that connection.

864
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: It can be really empowering because you're like, oh, right now,

865
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: I'm having a trauma response like this is coming up

866
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: for me and I'm feeling really unsafe. My desire is

867
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: to protect my child and what I'm doing is not helping. Right, So,

868
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: being able to make that connection and being able to

869
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: use your coping skills, being able to use the strategy

870
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: is that you've developed in therapy. You can make a

871
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: different choice, right, you can engage with it in a

872
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: different way. But yeah, as you're transitioning to parenthood, you're exhausted,

873
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: you're doer the stress, and you're trying to learn to

874
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: do something that you care about really really deeply. But

875
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: that many of us, you know, we're learning as we

876
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: go and it's imperfect. So being able to really love

877
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 1: working with couples about how can you be aware of

878
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: how your child is going to shape how you showed

879
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: up with your child, how you show up with your child,

880
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: and also the choices that you can make that are different, right,

881
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: Like what what choices do you want to make that

882
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: are different and why? And beyond that, how to actually

883
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: go about doing it. So we do a lot of

884
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: that work and also encouraging couples to be able to

885
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: have conversations with each other because the more that you

886
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: understand where your partner is coming from and why, the

887
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: more that you're able to create this third space for

888
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: your family where you're like, this is where I came from,

889
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: this is where you came from, and this is the

890
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: third space that we're creating for our family and the

891
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: choices that we're making that are value aligned, that are

892
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: about who we want to be, and that that creating

893
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: and sustaining that third space is an active process. And

894
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: it's even harder, I feel like for black families because

895
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: you're doing it in this space where you're trying to

896
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: cultivate the family environment, values, safety, security in a world

897
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: that's often adversarial, right, You're trying to do this against

898
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: the current. So that's we're having that therapist, Having that

899
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: other person who's in your team, who's in your corner,

900
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: who's helping you to navigate all of that can be

901
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 1: really helpful. Mm hmmm. Yeah. I mean, as you're talking

902
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: about cultivating this third space, I'm thinking about how for

903
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: black parents, so much of that is out of our control, right, Like,

904
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 1: so having these conversations about how to protect your channel

905
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: against racist attacks and you know, like what happens when

906
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: somebody calls them you know, the in word or something,

907
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: right Like, so much of that it feels like it's

908
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: are things that we have to kind of prepare for

909
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: that other parents don't. Oh. Yes, One of the things

910
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: that I often hear is that parents feel like they

911
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: have to toughen their child up right that from this

912
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: space of trauma, you're like, the world is going to

913
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: traumatize you. The world is gonna like hurt you. I

914
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: am like scared for you from the you know, time

915
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: that you're born. Based on what you're up against, you

916
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: need to be above reproach. You need to be on

917
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: point all of the time. Intentionally or unintentionally. That can

918
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: even show up as us kind of perpetuating that trauma

919
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: where we know in the research, one of the things

920
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: that I love about some of the research on black

921
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 1: families is that black families can be this protective buffer

922
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: against things that are outside of your control. So that

923
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: racial socialization, that pride, that empathy, that warrant that security

924
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: and stability. It can't fix the whole world, but it

925
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: can create like this protective barrier around your child that

926
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: they're going to carry with them, that secure identity, that

927
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: secure attachment that even in a world that's up against them,

928
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: gives them an extra air of protection, not hardening them up,

929
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: like not trying to prepare them and almost like pre

930
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: traumatize them. Right, But this idea that actually what we

931
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: see is that those warm, supportive, loving um home environments

932
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: actually best prepare people to deal with the harsh realities

933
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 1: of the world. Oh, thank you so much for that

934
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: active pipe. I feel like we could dig so much

935
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: deeper into that, but I do not want is all

936
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: of your time. So I would love for you to

937
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: be able to just share with us maybe any helpful resources.

938
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: So you've already talked about the c PTSD workbook. What

939
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: are there other books or podcasts of things that you

940
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: find yourself recommending pretty frequently? Oh? Yes, So if you

941
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: have time to read or listen to audio books, I

942
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: can recommend The Body Keeps the Score. That's kind of

943
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: like classic book about trauma. My Grandmother's Hands Are is

944
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: another good one to be able to read or listen to.

945
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: The Complex PTSD Workbook is good. But yeah, there's just

946
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: doing some research and being able to even give a

947
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: name to some of these things that can be really helpful.

948
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, definitely reading about those adverse childhood experiences and

949
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: the idea of like post traumatic growth and resilience as well.

950
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: So thinking about this conversation as a two sided coin,

951
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: because you know what we didn't get to dive into

952
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: is that, yeah, there are ways that trauma based on

953
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: kind of the way we're able to engage with it

954
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: can inspire growth, resilience, and you know, continued flourishing. In

955
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,240
Speaker 1: certain circumstances, you may have to have a great follow

956
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: up session related to that, so we can dig a

957
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: little deeper into that way. Yeah, so tell us where

958
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: can we find you, Dr Piper? What is your website

959
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share. Oh,

960
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: this is a good question. So my practice website is

961
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: Onward and Outward dot org. So that's my website. Is

962
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm also on therapy for Black Girls directory, so you

963
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: can find me there. And then in terms of social media,

964
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: I think my instant is Dr joannelle A t L

965
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: and then for Atlanta and I think I'm on Facebook

966
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: as well, and you can search me, you can find

967
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 1: me perfect. Will include all of that in the show notes. Well,

968
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: thank you so much for this, Dr Piper. Is such

969
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: a great conversation, such a wealthy resources. I really appreciate it.

970
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for giving me a chance to talk about

971
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: This is something that I cared deeply about and I

972
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: really appreciate the chance to talk more about it. Thank you.

973
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr Piper was able to join us

974
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: for today's conversation. To learn more about her and to

975
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: check out the resources she shared, be sure to visit

976
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

977
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: slash session and please text two sisters right now and

978
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode. Don't forget that

979
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a therapy it's in your area.

980
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: You can check out our therapist directory at Therapy for

981
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want

982
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

983
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

984
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: in the newly formed Therapy for Black Girls Sister Circle.

985
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: Our community was formerly called the Yellow Couch Collective, but

986
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: now it's called the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner

987
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: of the Internet, designed just for black women. You can

988
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

989
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week.

990
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you

991
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take get care