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This is an interview I 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: wasn't sure would ever happened. One of the most famous 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: spiritual healers in the world rarely talks to anyone on camera. 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: John of God agreed to sit down with me under 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: a mango tree on the grounds of the Casa. A 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: group of his patients gathered to watch. John of God 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: speaks only Portuguese, so Heather Coming helped translate. Ready, guys, 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: you describe yourself as a spiritual medium, what does that mean? 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: A medium? As a medium, He's a spiritualist. He believes 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: a great deal in God and he practices this mission 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: already fifty five years Born on a farm to a 29 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: family who rarely had enough to eat, juald Tehira de 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: Fria was the youngest of six children. His father was 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: a tailor, his mother a housewife who also ran a 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: small hotel to make ends meet. Jual left school when 33 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: he was seven to work in his father's tailor shop. 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: To this day, he cannot read or write. As a boy, 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: Jual says he realized he was clairvoyant when he predicted 36 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: a terrible storm that destroyed a neighboring village. This event 37 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: began his journey as a spiritual medium. Are we all 38 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: in some sense missionaries of God? Are we all? Do 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: we all have the possibility in our own way to 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: be a medium for God, both of us nice summus magic. 41 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: Everybody is a medium who practice is good and we 42 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: are all children's of God, and each person has their mission. Yeah. 43 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: The first time I saw today, I was humbled by 44 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: the experiment. Sequandela vil you say you fifty SOLSI because 45 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: a little bit of this you are hearing Oprah Winfrey 46 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: interviewing so called John of God. But in the last days, 47 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: John of God faith healer allegedly keeps teenage girls as 48 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: sex slaves, selling their babies for up to forty thousand 49 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: dollars plus before shipping them from Brazil to Europe. That's right. 50 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: The faith healer known renowned as John of God, accused 51 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: him abusing hundreds of women. He was just arrested in 52 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: Brazil with bags full of gems from his mind, allegedly 53 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: using women as slaves at the rural minds and would 54 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: impregnate girls, sell their babies and allegedly even murder them 55 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: after those are the allegation. I'm Nancy Grace, this is 56 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: crime stories. Thank you for being with us. Which makes 57 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: it even worse is these claims are true that he 58 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: masqueraded as a faith healer for the Lord, Joining me 59 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: right now. Doctor Bethany Marshall, California's psychoanalyst, forensics expert, Professor Forensics, 60 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet 61 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned Knee Jersey lawyer, a 62 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: veteran trial attorney. Brad Micklin joining us right now to syndicate. 63 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: A talk show host Dave mcdave john of God Help 64 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: Me please, all right, Nancy. Back in the late seventies 65 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: run nineteen seventy eight, there was a huge worldwide movement 66 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: of faith healer's psychic surgery. That's surgery without anesthetic and 67 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: all that kind of garbage. There's nothing more than parliaur 68 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: tricksy man. Whoa, whoa, Wait a minute, Dave mac don't 69 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: throw the baby out with the bathwater, because think what 70 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: you want. My aunt, my aunt Adele, who was Christian Science, 71 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: was actually a Christian Science faith practitioner. Now, what they do, 72 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: to my understanding, is you talk the person through their ailment. 73 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: You taught them and talk them through it, and you 74 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: try to exercise mind over matter. So before you throw 75 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: everybody in this country that believes in miracles, that believes 76 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: in faith healing. In with John of God, you got 77 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: the tiger by the tail, buddy, you got you can't 78 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: hold on and you can't let go. So let me 79 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: allow you the chance to rephrase your opening statement. We'll see. 80 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: If I had finished my opening statement, I would have said, 81 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: I believe in miracles from God. I believe in it 82 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: with all my heart. I thought you said something about garbage. Yes, 83 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: because John of God is garbage. This is not a 84 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: faith heal This is not a man of God. This 85 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: is a man of the devil who has been ripping 86 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: people off for the last fifty years. He came to 87 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: power in this little town in Brazil because he had 88 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: the aura of being a godly man, and people came 89 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: to him. You know, if you truly believe in the 90 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: healing power of God Almighty, that you believe in miracles, 91 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: I believe in your belief in Him, will heal you 92 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: in many cases. The problem is John of God practice 93 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: carnival tricks of psychic surgery, doing the nose scrape, the 94 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: ice scrape, all these things that have been blown away 95 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: by actual scientists for many, many years. He's not a 96 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: faith healer. Nancy, this guy is a Charlatan. He is 97 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: the wolf and chief's clothing that is described by the 98 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: apostle Paul all throughout the New Testament. This guy is 99 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: evil and what he has done is he's taken his 100 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: belief in God and then he found money in this 101 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: little town because people would come to him, and then 102 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: the entire little town sprung up selling little artifacts and 103 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: trinkets all about John of God and his healing, and 104 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: then they would show up and do a little consultation. 105 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: He would make them feel good because you know, Nancy, 106 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: if you're talking about Jesus Christ, if you're talking about 107 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit and the healing power of God, to 108 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: somebody who truly believes, they're going to get that same 109 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: warm feeling of belief that comes over their heart and 110 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: soul because they know that God truly can heal. He's 111 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: a conduit. But what he does is he takes that 112 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: ability to connect with people's hearts and their souls and 113 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: then he turns it into his own selfish sexual desires 114 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: and money. That's what he does. That's the allegation. Take 115 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: a listen to this report from Reuters. A Brazilian celebrity 116 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: faith healer known as John of God has turned himself 117 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: in after being accused of sexual abuse by more than 118 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: three hundred women. A judge on Friday had issued an 119 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: arrest warrant for him, giving him until two pm the 120 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: next day to surrender after he failed to report to authority. 121 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: He was officially ruled a fugitive since nineteen seventy six, 122 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: so called John of God has led a spiritual center 123 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: in central Brazil. He's drawn thousands of Brazilians and foreigners 124 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: to a spiritual center in a small town, even featured 125 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: by Oprah Winfrey on her show on Thursday. He denied 126 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: the accusations when visiting his center and spoke to a 127 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: crowd of followers. His lawyer last week said he'd file 128 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: an appeal on Monday. The seventy six year old could 129 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: face charges of rape with a prison sentence of ten 130 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: years if convicted, as well as rape of a vulnerable person, 131 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: which carries a sentence of up to fifteen years. You 132 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: are hearing from a Reuters reporter, But now I want 133 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: you to hear Lisa Melman telling Oprah what happened to her. 134 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: Thirty seven year old Lisa Melman had breast cancer doctors 135 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: recommended a double mestectomy and chemotherapy, but Lisa refused. Desperate 136 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: to find an alternative treatment, she traveled almost five thousand 137 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: miles from South Africa to Brazil. I'm stepping into their 138 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: no and ill. Once at the CASA, Lisa volunteered for 139 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: a visible surgery. No matter what the result, I know 140 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: the journeys who would have been as it. So where 141 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: did that nasal probe feel like for you? Well? When 142 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: I was taken up on the stage and my eyes 143 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: were closed, I still got a bit of a surprise 144 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: that because he was he felt for my breast and 145 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: he put my head back and then I felt his 146 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: thingo in and my first thought was, oh, no, okay, 147 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to have the nose one, you know. And 148 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: it was definitely cold. My heart was beating very fast. 149 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: And then I sort of felt him turning this instrument 150 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: and I remember crunching sound and and the thought that 151 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: how far can this thing go back? Because it felt 152 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: really farm. I wouldn't say it was painful. It was 153 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: more like shock because I hadn't experienced it before and 154 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: it's close to the brain. You are hearing Lisa Melman, 155 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: and if you didn't notice. The first thing she said 156 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: was he grabbed my breasts. Tell me, Um, do the 157 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: entities ask permission to take to to incorporate or do 158 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: they come at will? He hasn't just paging us to 159 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: appear myself, says He kneels down in the earth. He 160 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: gives thanks God for the opportunity to be able to 161 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: do this, and he hands over his body to God, 162 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: his godian his soul to God. You are hearing Oprah 163 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: Winfrey interviewing so called John of God. Listen what I 164 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: just witnessed. And first of all almost made me pass out. 165 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: But how are people able to be cut with with 166 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: with seemingly no pain? Ala present, You weren't feeling famed. 167 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: You were receiving a lot of energy that the entities 168 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: were sending him. Oh, you weren't feeling you weren't feeling sick. Well, 169 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: I felt like I was going to explode. I felt 170 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: like there was so much heat. He just consider that 171 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: is the power of God. Oh, what you just asked 172 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: him to receive, you were receiving it. He's Kevin. That's 173 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: what happens to him when he was beginning to inquire 174 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: in the Last Days, John of God faith healer allegedly 175 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: keeps teenage girls as sex slaves, selling their babies for 176 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: up to forty thousand dollars plus before shipping them from 177 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: Brazil to Europe. That's right. The faith he'll are known 178 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: renowned as John of God, accused him abusing hundreds of women. 179 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: To Brad Micklin, New Jersey lawyer, what do you make 180 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: of it? It's a shocking story. These get more and 181 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: more sensation lines. It becomes more and more difficult to 182 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: remain objective. But I have to look at the fact 183 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: that he has over three hundred alleged victims and they're 184 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: only fronowning about it. Now, I have to keep my 185 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: mind open that there's more to the story, that not 186 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: just many victims could have gone unnoticed all this time. 187 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: So I'm waiting to see what more happens as a SUBSLDS. 188 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, Dave Max and the Kid, 189 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: a talk show host. What is the evidence the prosecutors 190 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: are working with. Well, they're working, as you mentioned, with 191 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: many many women who have come forward. They've got enough 192 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: physical evidence to charge him with a crime. You know, 193 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: when he came to Sedona, Arizona, a couple of years ago, 194 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: a woman went in for a personal faith healing thing 195 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: with him, and she accused him of touching her genitals 196 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: and doing some of the things, and they tried to 197 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: get him there, but somebody intervened in Sedona, Arizona. These 198 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: charges are not new, Nancy. There have been these people 199 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: coming forward over the last forty years who have said things. 200 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: But this is John of God. He's insulated. He's got 201 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: a whole society built up around him, to the point 202 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: where Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey both were sucked in 203 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: by this guy. So the accusations now are bringing to 204 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: fruition an investigation now that goes back to an Australia 205 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: report from nineteen ninety eight on their sixty Minutes version 206 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: where they had people coming forward with the same allegations. Nancy, 207 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, Doctor Bethany Marshall. I need a shrink 208 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: big time. These clients have been being made we know 209 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: back to nineteen ninety eight, and nothing has happened. Nancy. 210 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: There is such a group hysteria among to his followers 211 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: that I imagine that law enforcement or anybody who wants 212 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: to turn him in is blocked at every turn. Hey, 213 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: he might be talented when it comes to healing. I 214 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: have no idea, but I think we have to remember 215 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: that he took young women from villages who were starving 216 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: and didn't have enough food, offered them food, brought him 217 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: into their compound, repeatedly impregnated them, sold the babies, and 218 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: in some cases actually murdered the women. After ten years, 219 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: I think the so called spiritual grew and all this healing, 220 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: I think it's all motivated by sex and sadism. Sadism 221 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: in that he wanted to kill the women, that he 222 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: wanted to take their babies from them, sadism, and that 223 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: surgery without anesthesia is actually an act of cruelty. Sure 224 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: these who knows what he gave these people before he 225 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: did the so called surgery or what kind of a 226 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: hysteria he whipped them up into. But it's a very 227 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: cruel act, not only to perform such a surgery when 228 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: you are untrained, but also to separate somebody from a 229 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: sound medical treatment. These are patients who are desperate for treatment, 230 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: who have sound, proven methodologies available to them, and he 231 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: separates them from them for some kind of a placebo 232 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: effect that may or may not work. His acts of 233 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: cruelty towards people just reverberate on multiple levels. It's too 234 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: hard to even enumerate all of them. There's so many. 235 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen, you know, in 236 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: case you're wondering if the fate healing worked. To Lisa 237 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: Melement again speaking with Oprah, it's never gone away, meaning 238 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: I've never been out of the cancer realm. I was 239 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: told that I at full stage. I was at full stage. 240 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: Do they get a prognosis in the beginning of two 241 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, they said, I know words have power, 242 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: but to say it anyway two to five years, which means, 243 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, not so long. But I think perception has 244 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: everything to do with it. I went into some fear 245 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: because it was an authority telling me that, and somewhere 246 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: along the line devaluing my existence and to travel, devaluing 247 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: her existence. She has never been free of cancer or 248 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: even since seeing John of God. To Joseph Scott Morgan, 249 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: let's get down to reality. You're the forensics expert, j Scott, 250 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: how can they prove the case. Well, this is what 251 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: I think. The concrete evidence in this case, Nancy is 252 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: going to be the bodies I think of these women 253 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: that's the first block here building a case. I've had 254 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: a lot of friends over the years that have traveled 255 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: all over the world that are forensic anthropologists that have 256 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: gone in excavated mass graves. Bethany had mentioned just a 257 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: moment ago how he had essentially turned a group of 258 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: young women and girls I would say, into baby factories, 259 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: and then after a period of time, it is alleged 260 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: that he would kill them once their usefulness was gone. 261 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: My suspicion is is that with that factory mentality lots 262 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: of times what happens in cases like this is mass 263 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: graves are dug or you have a concentration of these graves, 264 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: they're going to have to go out through all of 265 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: the property that this guy owns and search for these 266 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: areas where these bodies have been disposed of. Now, over 267 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: this period of time, you're going to literally have what's 268 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: referred to as co mingling of remains. That means that 269 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: all of these bodies will be together, They'll be kind 270 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: of mixed up. And that's the rub because you have 271 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: to separate these remains because I don't know, you know, 272 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: Brazil is a very isolated area, particularly in the heartland 273 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: of it. These young girls might be coming from tiny 274 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: little farms. They might not have specific government I d 275 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: you don't know who they are. So detach them back 276 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: to families and all these sort of things is going 277 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: to be very difficult. I want you to take a listen, 278 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, to Lisa Element again speaking with Oprah. I 279 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: never appreciated myself as as a human being or I had. 280 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: I did a lot of self punishment, and I think 281 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: part of the reason that perhaps perhaps I can just 282 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: talk in the perhaps I didn't heal or have that 283 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: kind of healing at John of God, was because I 284 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: was focused on results, and some people need more than 285 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: one lesson to wake up in life. Okay, I'm seven 286 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: years down the line and I'm still waking up, you know. 287 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: And for me, I understand so much now. I've I've 288 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: put a lot of emphasis on the emotional healing as 289 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: well as the nutrition nutritional healing. It's the body, it's 290 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: the mind at working as you say, working with the 291 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: healing ye whatever that is is. And being a participant 292 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: in your own Yeah yeah, Hi Nancy Grace here, have 293 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: you ever googled yourself? Your neighbors, somebody at work? A 294 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: crush fifty seven percent of Americans admit keeping an eye 295 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: on their own online reputation. Forty six admit to using 296 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: the Internet to look up somebody from their past. But 297 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: Google and Facebook the tip of the iceberg when it 298 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new website 299 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: called truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop on 300 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search through hundreds of millions 301 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: of public records in a matter of minutes. Truth Finder 302 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: members can literally begin searching in seconds for sensitive data 303 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: like criminal traffic arrest records. Before you bring someone new 304 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: into your life and around the people you care for 305 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: your children, consider using truth Finder. What you find may 306 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: astound you. Go to truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy 307 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: right away to start searching Truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy, 308 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: Truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth crime 309 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. He was, you know, very graphic. 310 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: Lutenant Andy Wilbert at the Radford Police Department is still 311 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: stunned by what he saw in this Clement Street apartment, 312 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: the sheer violence of one person on another. We're really 313 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: searching for emotive. You're hearing our friends at w dB 314 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: j seven. That was Eric Miller talking to the Radford, 315 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: Virginia police, who are stunned at the level of violence. 316 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: A twenty one year old college student, a female co ed, 317 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: stabs her best friend thirty times with a butcher knife 318 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: and grey eats the cops at the door, covered in blood, 319 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: standing there at the door in the apartment the two 320 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: shared together. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. Thank 321 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Of course, the state never 322 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: has to prove motive. You don't expect a prosecutor to 323 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: be able to crawl into the mind of a killer 324 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: and figure out why. The question is who did what 325 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: and when and where? Those are the questions. Not only 326 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: is Alexa Cannon, the young murder victim, gorgeous, brilliant, her 327 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: whole life in front of her, you should see the 328 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: alleged killer, Luisa Cutting, just twenty one years old, who 329 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: breaks down crying in her mugshot. Well, you know what, 330 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: that's a day late and a dollar short with me. 331 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert out of Florida, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina, 332 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: family and divorced lawyer, renowned forensics psychiatrists to doctor Daniel 333 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Bober and joining me right now, syndicated talk show host 334 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: David Matt. David, I don't get it. These two were 335 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 1: best friends, They shared an apartment together, they were going 336 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: to college together. What happened, Nancy? They met during freshman 337 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: year and they got a very quick bond. Last year, 338 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: they even went to Cancoon together, and from what we 339 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: were seeing on their social media, they were extremely close. 340 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: Although there were maybe some problems that were popping up 341 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: on social media through some different comments that were made 342 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: by both girls. They had this relationship where they just 343 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: became roommates this past fall. They hadn't been roommates until 344 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: that point, and one of the comments that Alexa made 345 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: about their relationship was pray for us, that we don't 346 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: kill one another. Now. I don't think that was anything 347 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: other than just girls talking about moving in together, but 348 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: considering what just took place, it's something to consider right now. 349 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: What we do know is that on the morning that 350 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: this took place, that Alexa was the one calling nine 351 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: one one, and all they could hear on nine one 352 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: one was screaming and they heard something about a knife. 353 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: Other neighbors had also called nine one one that morning 354 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: to report a disturbance. That's why police got there. And 355 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: when they did, they were greeted at the door by 356 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 1: Louisa brit and Blood saying I killed her, putting her 357 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: hands behind her back, saying arrest me. Wow. It's almost 358 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: too much to take in A college student breaks down 359 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: in tears in her mug shot after she's busted on 360 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: suspicion of stabbing her very best friend and roommate thirty 361 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: to forty times. Wow, in the apartment where they live. 362 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: You know, Karen Smith, forensics expert, You've dealt with so 363 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: many homicide scenes. At a certain point, you know, you 364 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: notice they can't tell how many times Alexa was stabbed. 365 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: Why is that? Well, when you're dealing with sharp fourth 366 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: injuries like this, you know it's hard to talk about, 367 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: but here are the facts. You have a very very violent, 368 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: violent attack. This was personal. This was up close. And 369 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: when you have something like that, when the sharp force 370 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: injuries occur, sometimes they occur in the same area multiple times, 371 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: and it's difficult to tell if it was two, three, 372 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: or four in the same area. And it's a horrible, 373 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: horrific scene for these police officers to encounter. The knife, 374 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: from what I understand, was actually found in her mouth, 375 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: So the knife was left at the point. Wait wait wait, wait, yeah, 376 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: so you're telling me the murder victim Alexi Cannon, psychology 377 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: major from nearby Roanoke. She was planning to graduate in May, 378 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: stabbed thirty to forty times and fan with a knife 379 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: in her mouth. Did you say that that's what reports 380 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: are saying that that's correct? Thank you Karen Smith for 381 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: just topping off this reporting. What I don't understand and 382 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: let me go to doctor Daniel Bober on this forensic psychiatrist. 383 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Bober, the tack on Alexa was so violent. What 384 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: does that tell you about the mindset or the motive 385 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: of her best friend and roommate Luisa Cutting. I agree 386 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: with Karen. I mean, I think it's when you get 387 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: that close in that personal and there's that much, you know, injury, 388 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: I think it's pure rage and so I think there 389 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: was a very personal connection there, you know, unlike someone 390 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: who's a sniper who shoots from a thousand yards away, 391 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: when you get back close with those types of injuries, 392 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: it's there's a very very personal, intimate connection and there's 393 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: a lot of rage there, you know. I'm thinking Kathleen 394 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: Murphy North Carolina family and divorce lawyer. They were taking 395 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: snipes on social media. You know how easy it is, 396 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, you deal with family and close friend, intimate issues, divorce, 397 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: You know how easy it is to just shoot off 398 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: a nasty text tastes like fifteen seconds and then you 399 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: may wish immediately, you may regret it, but it's too late, 400 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: and that just throws fuel on the fire. I think 401 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: these girls were in a serious romantic relationship and that 402 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: romantic relationship has gone back. What do you think about that, 403 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: Dave mc Any indication that's true? You know, if you 404 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: read between the lines, maybe Nancy, But that hasn't come 405 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: out in any of the stuff. One thing that did 406 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: come out in one of the police reports was that apparently, 407 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 1: in the days leading up to this event, Alexa had 408 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: reached out to several friends made comments that the relationship 409 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: had soured and she was worried. Well, isn't it true 410 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: that search warrants show the officers took a phone and 411 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: a knife and peels, smoking devices and grinders from the defendant, 412 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: Louisa Cutting's bedroom. Yes, and a brown chalk like substance 413 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: from the kitchen. I mean, you know what that is 414 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: that drugs gotta be heroin, crack or cocaine, and the perp. 415 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: It's all in her bedroom. Well, assuming that the grinder 416 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: is for the weed, because they found the smoking parents 417 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: ernalia in there, the pills, we don't know what the 418 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: contents was the brown stuff again, that sounds like heroin. 419 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: But the information here is that they don't have Luis's 420 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: phone yet or they if they do, they haven't disclosed 421 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: that the phone they do have is the victim, Alexa. 422 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: It was found in her left hand under her body, 423 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: the knife in her mouth, as was indicated earlier. So 424 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: the information that we have from the phone is coming 425 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: from the victim, Alexa's phone, not from Luisa yet. What 426 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: do you mean what's coming from Alexis phone? Yeah, Well, 427 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: we're getting from Alexa's phone is that she had a 428 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: called nine one one that morning, b that she had 429 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: had contact with others via Twitter or other social media 430 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: that was picked up. They got search warrants on both 431 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: of their phones, although they haven't disclosed what was on 432 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: Luis's yet, but on Alexis phone, they did determine that 433 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: she had reached out to several people, indicating that she 434 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: was deeply concerned about the relationship with Luisa as that 435 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: they were moving forward and that this was something that 436 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: she feared. Well, can you can you tell me this 437 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: day Max Syndicated talked to her host, why the alleged killer, 438 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: this young co ed has hired the Bobbitt lawyer. We 439 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: all remember when John Wayne Bobbitt's penis was chopped off 440 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: by wife Lorraina Bobbitt. How did he get brought into 441 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: the case and why? Well, Blair Howard is a legend 442 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: in Virginia, you know, as you mentioned, he was the 443 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: Lorena Bobbitt lawyer. And what one has to assume is 444 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: that the family has hired Blair Howard so that he 445 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: can come in and pitch this as some type again 446 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: going back to the relationship that had broken down. And 447 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, when you go back and look at 448 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: some of the information from their trip to Cancun, Alexa 449 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: was talking about how that Luisa was kind of like 450 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: her mother on the trip, making sure she got back 451 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: to the room safely, make sure that all of her 452 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: clothes got back to the room, and not judging her. 453 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: So something took place on that trip in Cancoun that 454 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: put their dynamic, their relationship in a weird dynamic where 455 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: maybe not just friend friend or a girlfriend girlfriend, but 456 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: now she's a protector and mother type. And when you 457 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: look at the knife in the mouth and everything else, 458 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: you've got the extreme rage and obsession and everything else 459 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: that builds into it. But again, hiring Blair Howard as 460 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: the attorney leaves me to believe that they're going to 461 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: come up with a self defense or abused some type 462 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: of an abusive situation argument. If you have information five 463 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: four zero seven, three one, three, six two four do 464 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering 465 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: what can I give them as a gift. Don't give 466 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy or 467 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: god forbid, a toy gun that's just going to end 468 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: up in the garage. Give them something that matters. And 469 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: what matters the most is protecting their child. What do 470 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: you love most in the world? Your children? What will 471 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: you do to protect them anything. I sat down with 472 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: these smartest people I know in the world on matters 473 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 474 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 475 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 476 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crimestops here dot com 477 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you 478 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child. 479 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: Give that as a gift, not another one. Z. Find 480 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: out how to protect your child when you're out of 481 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: the mall or the store, or the grocery, in the 482 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: parking lot at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters 483 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: in daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day 484 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: of the week than a plastic toy or God forbid 485 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to crimestops here 486 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Earlier today, February fifteens, at one pm, in 487 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: the town of Auburn, Maine, members of the Alaska State 488 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: Troopers lastegul of Investigation and Cold Case Investigation Unit, with 489 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: the assistance of the main State Police and the Auburn 490 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: Police Department, made an arrest regarding the nineteen ninety three 491 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: murder of twenty year old Sophie Surgee. You are hearing 492 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: the very latest a coal case. Has it been solved? 493 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 1: A murder suspect, Stephen Downs is in the lower forty 494 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: eight for now contesting an extradition move to Alaska. I'm 495 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. This cold case is 496 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: now a quarter of a century old, but the facts 497 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: are just as chilling as they were then. Joining me 498 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: now Brad Minklin, New Jersey attorney, doctor Bethany Marshall, California's psychoanalyst, 499 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and joining me now Crime 500 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter where you can find this 501 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: in all other breaking crime and justice news. John Lemley 502 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: John first the case in chief. Then I will deal 503 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: with Stephen Downs. What happened Nancy? We first go back 504 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: to April of nineteen ninety three. This is on the 505 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: campus of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. This is a 506 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: Monday afternoon, April twenty sixth, to be exact, and Bartlett 507 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: Residence Hall was a busy place. Finals week is coming up. 508 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: Most students are cramming, racing to finish semester into papers 509 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: and projects. It's a bustling spot around two pm that afternoon. 510 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: Existence on the second floor of Bartlett, though it was 511 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: the dorm's all female residential floor at the time, takes 512 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: a grim, surreal plunge. Dorm residents have been in and 513 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: out of the second floor bathroom all day long, no 514 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: one had noticed anything unusual, anything odd. That's until one 515 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: of the janitors enters to start her daily cleaning. She 516 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: passes by all the sinks, shower stalls, and then opens 517 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: a door in the back of the area that leads 518 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: to a more private bathroom with just a single bathtub. 519 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: The janitor flips on the light and is absolutely horrified 520 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: by the sight of a young woman's body. The victim 521 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: has suffered a gunshot wound, her pants are down to 522 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: around her ankles. What's truly chilling is that it's soon 523 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: determined that she'd been lying in the tub as long 524 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: as thirteen hours before anyone founder with me is Joseph 525 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of 526 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Jo Scott, do you 527 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: believe Sophie was the alleged killer's only victim or do 528 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: you believe there more? Well, from what I'm understanding, Nancy, 529 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: this guy's DNA is not popping up on anybody else's radar. Now. 530 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: I don't know that maybe it was ineffectively examined over 531 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: the course of the years, but right now his DNA 532 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: is solely associated with this case out of the forensic database. Well, 533 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: here's my take on that, Jo Scott Morgan. If there 534 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: is a connection between him this guy Stephen Downs, whose 535 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: DNA has matched seaman found at the scene of Sophie 536 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: Sergey's murder, If there is a connection between them, because 537 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: he was in Alaska at the time, for instance, if 538 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: they were dating, if he was stalking her, if they 539 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: were in a study group together, then I would say 540 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: this is maybe his only victim. If this is random 541 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: and he just stalked her like he would an animal, 542 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: raped her and killed her, then I would say there 543 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: are going to be more victims. To me, you're saying 544 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: yes and no, which is not a clear answer. But 545 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: I understand his DNA hasn't popped up anywhere else to 546 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: suggest he was not a serial attacker, but the other 547 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: attacks may not have DNA. I don't know the answer 548 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: to that. I think Dr Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst. The answer 549 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: is going to be did he have a connection to 550 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: Sophie Sergey. If he did, this may be his only victim. 551 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: But if he did not, I would suspect that she 552 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: is one of many people he just hunted, stalked, murdered. 553 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: I would agree, Nancy, if he did not have a 554 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: connection then, and by the way that the connection could 555 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: be quite fragile. Perhaps he saw her at the grocery store, 556 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps he saw her at nightclub and followed her back 557 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: to the dorm, and so he begins to stalk her. 558 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: So in fantasy he has a relationship, whereas in reality 559 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: there is none. So it could be that kind of 560 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: a connection. Or, as I suspect, this guy stalks women, 561 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: and it started when he was very young, looking at 562 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: other girls at grade school, as Joe Scott Morgan said, 563 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: peeping through windows, driving through neighborhoods. This is a man 564 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: who's logged endless hours casing institutions that are frequented by women. 565 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: And what better place than a dorm, a sorority, a 566 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: place where he can hang out under a tree in 567 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: the dark, by a ditch, looking in windows, and finally 568 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: selecting a victim. It takes enormous energy, Nancy, to penetrate 569 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: a dorm and to kill somebody, which does does imply 570 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: to me, As Joe Scott Morgan said, that this guy 571 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: had been thinking about this and preparing this for a 572 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: long long time too. Brad Michelin, New Jersey lawyer. We 573 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: know that the technique they are using as cutting as 574 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: genetic genealogy techniques, and that's the same thing used in 575 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: the Golden State killer case where there are literally dozens 576 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: of victims. What that means is you get DNA from 577 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: the crime scene. You have the known DNA, you don't 578 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: have anything to match it too, so you run it 579 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: through a DNA database. Because of DNA databases such as 580 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: ancestry dot com and so many others like that, a 581 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: familial DNA match potche pops up like I may I 582 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: commit a crime. You may get my second cousin who 583 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: did her ancestry Her DNA will pop up as a 584 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: remote match. Then you investigate, investigate, investigated, until you get 585 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: down to me the alleged perp. Will that genealogy technique 586 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: familial DNA beach challenged in court? And how Brad Micklin 587 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: well answer some question, And I think the answer is yes, 588 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: it will be challenged. Aside from the fact that DNA 589 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: is always going to be challenged because what led in 590 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: part to balance being identified was advances in the DNA technology, 591 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: not discovery of new technology or not discovery of new DNA. 592 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: He was actually a suspect at the time of the murderer, 593 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: but he was dismissed. So I think that as the 594 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 1: law develops and the DNA develops, you strengthen the dismissibility 595 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: of the evidence because the technique and technology is better, 596 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: But you convoluted because you're using old DNA that was 597 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: used with the whole technology, So you're going to be 598 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: using certain issues at the same time that you're settling 599 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: off to John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, 600 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: I know, the medical examiner concluded that Surgery, Sophie Surgery, 601 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: just twenty years old, had been sex assaulted, stamped twice 602 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: in the right eye while she was alive, then killed 603 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: a single gunshot went into the back of the head 604 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: from a twenty two caliber. The weapon was never found. 605 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: But what can you tell me about this guy, Steve Downs, 606 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: who's fighting extradition right now. Well, Downs, at the time 607 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: of this murder was an eighteen year old freshman at 608 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: the Alaska College. Downs was interviewed briefly by police at 609 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 1: the time of the murder, but he denied any knowledge 610 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: of what happened. Sergey, a Native Alaskan from the Western 611 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: village of the Piscus Point area. Was just visiting a 612 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: friend at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks at the time 613 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: when she was brutally sexually assaulted and killed. And what 614 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: is so ironic is that she was only there for 615 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: two nights and it was that second night that she 616 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: was murdered. Now I know that downs the alleged points 617 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: of fingers at soldiers from Fort Wainwright, and that's a 618 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: nearby army barracks. That's convenient, But their DNA is not matching. 619 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: She was sex assaulted, he claimed at the time they 620 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: often visited the residence hall to see girls there. Now 621 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: interesting is DNA did not turn up on previous searches 622 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: in the National Criminal Database. He has no prior arrest. 623 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: It was only through this genealogy website that the DNA 624 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: match emerged. What we know forty four year old nurse 625 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: living in Maine. When I say he is challenging extradition, 626 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: extradition means you're being taken from one state to another, 627 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: one territory or jurisdiction to another. There's only two questions. 628 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: Is this you? And are you the person charged in 629 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: this indictment? So what's happening right now, they're probably using 630 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: fingerprint verification that this is in fact Steve Downs, and 631 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: he will be extradited, even though he claims no knowledge 632 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: and claims his innocence. We wait as justice unfolds, but 633 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: remember Sophie Sergey's family has been waiting for twenty five 634 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: years for justice. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend,