1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Quality Bus with Joseph Scott more. One of the more 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: frustrating aspects in forensics is sometimes you're left wanting you 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have all of the answers that you might 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: wish to have. I'm sorry to inform you, but sometimes 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: not all of the answers rest in science. Now, we 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: can back up things, we can give you not just 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: qualitative results, but also quantitative results. But it still leaves 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: us frustrated because we don't have that solid foundation many 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: times to rest upon that we can go back and 10 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: definitively say something is concluded. Some things are never concluded. Today, 11 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about an update that we have 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: in regards to the Travis Decker case, more specifically Travis 13 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Decker's murder allegedly of his three daughters. Coming to you 14 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University, I'm Joseph 15 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags, Dave. I have so 16 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 1: many people that will approach me. We're just have gotten 17 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: back from crime con and again we're faced many times 18 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: with the why question. People want to know why something 19 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: has not been solved, why the data that comes out 20 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily marry up with what they were perhaps predisposed 21 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: in their thinking to. You know, the beauty of science 22 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: is that there's an elegance to it where it lays 23 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: out and you just have to accept the results for 24 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: what they are. Sometimes things just don't go down the 25 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: way you wish that they would, And with Travis Decker 26 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: in particular, this case has been an absolute nightmare. There 27 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: are people that want answers, and I think primarily where 28 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: is he. It's very frustrating, I think, for many folks 29 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: because in his wake, he has allegedly into the lives 30 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: of his three children and is not being held to 31 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: account for it because no one has put their hands 32 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: on him at this point. 33 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: You know, this case began, as many cases do with 34 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 2: a divorced couple having children. There is always something, it seems, surrounding, 35 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: whether it's child supporter or visitation or a combination of 36 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: the two. And in this case, Travis Decker is former military. 37 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: He is trained in every aspect of survival and he's 38 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: good at it, and he hasn't had a lot of 39 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: He has not adapted well to life after military service, 40 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: and it's partly due to some of what he brought 41 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: back from his military service. 42 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 3: Now. 43 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: It began the search for Travis Decker. He's thirty two 44 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: years old. By the way, it began when he did 45 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: not return his daughters from a planned visitation. There are 46 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: very strict rules for how he could have his children 47 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: with him alone, you know, not having to go where 48 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: somebody's watching him all the time with the kids, something 49 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: he had really fought for. But his ex wife was 50 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: very concerned because she knows Travis. She knows Travis from before, 51 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: during and after, and she has seen some real changes 52 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: in his personality and not happy with the direction his 53 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: life was headed. 54 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: He ended up being homeless. 55 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 4: Joe. 56 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: And if you're a guy and you're going through a 57 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: transition period in life and you like the outdoors, you know, 58 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: pitching a tent and camping out and doing those things, 59 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: that's that's fine if it's a lifestyle choice and you're 60 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: the only person you have to. 61 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: To deal with. 62 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: But when you have children, you get them for the weekend, 63 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: you have to have a nice place for them to go, 64 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: a comfortable place. Hey, you can go on a camp out, 65 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: that's fine, you know, for the weekend, But when children 66 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: are in a home with their mom on a regular schedule, 67 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: living with dad in the woods for his visitation is 68 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: not it's not fun. It's not camping. You know, Camping 69 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: is not homelessness. Camping is a trip into the woods. 70 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: Camping is something that if the weather g it's bad 71 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: or something else, you can go back home. Yeah, when 72 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: you're living in the woods and you're homeless, it's not 73 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: a place where. In this case, the mom wanted her 74 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: three daughters to be so Travis Decker doesn't return with 75 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: the children as expected, and they kept very close eye 76 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: on this. This is not one of those times show 77 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: where somebody was a day later, two days later, even 78 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: a week late before they were reported. We're talking hours hours. 79 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: That's how concerned everyone from the attorneys to the judge 80 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: to mom, they were that concerned. 81 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: You know. One of the interesting aspects to this case, Dave, 82 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: as it applies to to Whitney Decker, the wife former wife, 83 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: is that she had actually identified Travis as as a 84 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: good dad, right that you know, down I guess you know, 85 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: she has more insight than anybody else does down into 86 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: the of his being that you know, he genuinely loved 87 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: his daughters and wanted to spend time with them. Listen, 88 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: there's a whole ton of daddies out there that never 89 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: ever take the opportunity to see their kids period. In 90 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: a paragraph, Travis Decker doesn't strike me as that person. 91 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,559 Speaker 1: You know, he wants to be with his kids, and 92 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: he has experienced trouble in his life, particularly between the years, 93 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: relative to what he has gone through based upon his 94 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: military experience. And when I say military experience, I'm not 95 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: talking about training. I'm talking about you know, the horrors 96 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: of war, and so you know, you plug in that formula. 97 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: But I got to go back to something because it 98 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: really reminded me. It kind of flipped a switch with me. 99 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: You were saying this a second ago about that the 100 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: wilderness or camping is certainly there's no permanence to that, 101 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: and you talked about how if you're an individual, it's cool. 102 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: And you know, this guy, this guy is not Ted Kaczinski, 103 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: the inn obomber, you know, who had the the you know, 104 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: the handbuilt cabin up there in Montana and he had 105 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: flown under the radar for years and years. We're talking 106 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: about a guy that's, yeah, he has a tent, but 107 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: he's primarily living out of his truck. He's traveling with 108 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: his fateful dog. And uh, you know, I think that 109 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: pretty much everybody knows knows my story and your story. 110 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: We're you know, we're products. We have had divorces in 111 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: our life, and it's it's one of the toughest things 112 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: you have to go through. How much more so if 113 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: you're homeless and you're mentally troubled and you've got these 114 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: three beautiful children that you still want to be part 115 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: of their life. I can I'm not making excuses for 116 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: him on any level. I am indicating I think that 117 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: this can be a very frustrating situation for him, and 118 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: if he's already got issues that he has to deal with, 119 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: I would imagine there's a lot of shame and regret 120 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: and everything else comes along with it. 121 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: You know you mentioned Whitney Decker, the ex wife. Well, 122 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: when Whitney Decker filed for divorce last year, she actually 123 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: sought a protection order. She and this is what I mentioned. 124 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: She actually saw the deterioration of her husband, of Travis Decker, 125 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: from the man she knows he is at his core 126 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: and the man he has become and they were not 127 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: the same guy. And she actually felt some serious concern 128 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: over his mental health and the fact that he wasn't 129 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: consistently taking his medication, and some other things like that. 130 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: She filed for divorce citing Travis's instability. She wrote in 131 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: that divorce paperwork that Decker had a borderline personality disorder 132 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: and narcissism. Now, the reason we tell you all of 133 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: these things is background, because by now, for those of 134 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: you who have followed along, this is a follow up update. 135 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: Show you know that when Travis Decker did not come 136 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: back with the children, that they did immediately. They being 137 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: police and everybody else, began looking immediately, and they found 138 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: the girls. They found the girl's bodies. They found them 139 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: at the campsite that appeared to be more than just 140 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: a campsite. It appeared to be where Travis Decker had 141 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: been living for some time. There were signs of living 142 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: there not for a weekend, but four months possibly. And 143 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: what they found Joe at that campsite, in these three 144 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: precious little girls, is shocking to the heart and soul. 145 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: And the fact that a guy who is considered a 146 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: good dad at his core, that he is the only 147 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: suspect in what took place in the mountains at that campsite. 148 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: And now the reason for the update is we are 149 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: weaving those of us who watch crime, we're following the 150 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: story of the search for Travis Decker, who has been 151 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: charged in the deaths of his daughters, and we had 152 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: something come up. 153 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: The FBI was involved. They found bones. 154 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: We're talking months now, it's already passed that one hundred 155 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: day mark since Travis Decker went missing. He left the 156 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: girls of the campsite, and we'll go over how that 157 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: what he left behind, because that has a lot to 158 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: do with where we're headed now. But finding bones in 159 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 2: the woods, Joe, my first thought to you in doing 160 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: this update is, first of all, when we saw the update, 161 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: bones found in the woods. And while they're looking for 162 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: Travis Decker, and they find the bones and they start 163 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: calling in extra I mean two hundred and fifty agents, 164 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: special agents pulled from everywhere everywhere to do a shoulder 165 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: to soldier, shoulder to shoulders serch for more bones of 166 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: Travis Decker. So they thought, now, Joe, you know what 167 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: it's like in the woods when you're trying to find 168 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: forensic evidence. I'm wondering how much of it gets trampled on, 169 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: how much evidence gets lost while you're looking. 170 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it does, and being out in 171 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the out in the wilderness, the wilderness area is particularly frustrating. 172 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,359 Speaker 1: I spent quite a number of years tramping through swampland 173 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: and you had mentioned shouldered shoulder. I'm glad you brought 174 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: that up. For those that have served in the military, 175 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: at any point in time, you do a thing in 176 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: the military called policing, and policing has nothing to do 177 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: with law enforcement. Has Policing the grounds is what they 178 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: refer to a particular the army, and you stand shouldered 179 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: shoulder and you walk along very methodically and you pick 180 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: up any trash that's on the ground. It's kind of 181 00:11:52,840 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: like busy work for these officers are agents that would 182 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: have been summoned out there along with local constabulary members 183 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: if they're working an area and you have to do it. 184 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: There's it's actually a grid search that you're doing. So 185 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: if you have an overlay, an aerial overlay of this 186 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: wild area, which I think is the park where this 187 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: went down, is like over two hundred and fifty six 188 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: acres or something like that, some big number like that, 189 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: you have to break it down into manageable spaces. That's 190 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: part of searching an area. So you know, if you're 191 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, you might go out there and search a grid. 192 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: We use grids for all kinds of things in forensics, 193 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: but the grid search is when you're doing a search, 194 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: is much broader than say an evidence search, where you 195 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: have a concentration of evidence and you break an area 196 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: into We might have grid squares in a crime scene 197 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: that might be I don't know, maybe a foot by foot. 198 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: That's the size of the grid that you're in when 199 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: you're down your hands and knees and you're kind of 200 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: sweeping things away and collecting evidence. When you're doing a search, 201 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: those grids are much larger, and you will sign specific 202 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: people and you will methodically walk through there. What are 203 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: you looking for, Well, you're looking for any kind of 204 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: sign of life, and you're also in a broad sense, 205 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: looking for any bits of material that might be out 206 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: there that could be associated with K. So you spend 207 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: most of your time in these grids walking shoulder to shoulder, 208 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: and you are marching this off essentially, so that you 209 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: go from let's say let's say a grid is set up, 210 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, in both in the north south plane and 211 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: also in the east west plain, so you kind of 212 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: crisscross you walk forward from say, for instance, from south 213 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: to north, you know, maybe five abreast, and then you're 214 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: looking and scanning the soil beneath your feet. And here's 215 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: something interesting. People might not know if you If you 216 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: come across something, everybody says halt or pause and they 217 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: will come out with a have you, davey, have you 218 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: ever seen the. 219 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 3: Little the little wire. 220 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: Wire flags that are orange or yellow, and they're generally 221 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: used for utility lines and are plugged into the ground. 222 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: We use the same thing out there. So what you 223 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: do is you take one of the and it's very 224 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: non invasive because it's wire, it's very tiny, the caliber 225 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: of the thing is very small. You stick it in 226 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: the ground right there and pause, and so you don't 227 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: remove it from that space immediately. You continue on with 228 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: the search because you don't and I use the term 229 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: context a lot on body backs. You don't want to 230 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: take away the context of that piece of evidence at 231 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: that site. It could be a ring, it could be 232 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: a button, it could be a bone, or what you 233 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: think might be a bone. And one of the reasons 234 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: that you think that it might be a bone is 235 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: that you're not a forensic anthropologist. There are very few 236 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologists go along or go around. So one of 237 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: the things you do is you mark it right there. 238 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: And then if you've got, like maybe at True Disposal, 239 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: one or two forensic anthropologists out there they're having to 240 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: manage and a huge swath of land, you will summon 241 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: them over because they're looking at other things. And I've 242 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: had this happen. I've had them literally I'm standing still 243 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: and I've had them come over and kneel beside me 244 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: without me moving my feet because I don't want to 245 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:52,119 Speaker 1: destroy anything. You were talking about stomping on evidence. And 246 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: you pause and they will get down their hands and 247 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: knees and they will very carefully look at that. Okay, 248 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: now if they say that, they'll give you a heads 249 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: up if it's a bone or not. You're still going 250 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: to move on looking to mark other things. Then you 251 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: step out of that grid and you've got all these 252 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: markers that are in place, and you're going to break 253 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: that down bit by bit, kind of reducing the scope 254 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: of your size of it, because now it's gone from 255 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: merely searching to now processing relative to a grid square, 256 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: So that grid square is like reduced so that it's manageable. 257 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: You don't want You don't want, say, a fifty by 258 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: fifty grid as your crime scene area. You want to 259 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: reduce that grid down now within the grid so that 260 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: it's it's smaller, more manageable, and you can excavate that 261 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: area kind of a long way around the barn. But 262 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: most people have never done this, and so it's ultimately 263 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: it's one of the most tedious things that you can 264 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: do at a crime saying how it's also one of 265 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: the most rewarding, and it sharpens your skills. I got 266 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: to tell you, every time I had ever worked a 267 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: crime scene involving scattered human remains, you know, Dave, it 268 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,479 Speaker 1: would sharpen my skills for future cases I was going 269 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: to work. I'd hit these little benchmarks of these skeletal 270 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: recovery things, because by virtue of working with a forensic anthropologist, 271 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: they know that the devil is in the details, and 272 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: because of their scientific mind, you learn a lot sitting 273 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: at their feet because they work in a very granular level, 274 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: and so I could translate that into even even like 275 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: a dry by shooting case, where you might just look 276 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: at it very broadly. It's at night, you've got blood everywhere, 277 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: you don't think about the fine detail, you know, most 278 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: of the time, and when you do these these searches 279 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: for skeleter remains, it kind of snaps you back to 280 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: where you need to be as a practitioner. So I 281 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: kind of welcome the pain those associated with this because 282 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: it's it can be brutal. Uh, you know, the elements 283 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: are are horrible, you know. You you think about like 284 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: the brine laundry search that was out in the swamps. 285 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: I still have questions, by the way, because parents, you know, 286 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: walked up air quotes, walked up on the on the 287 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: body very quickly. And these people have been searching out 288 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: in that very hostile environment for his remains, you know, 289 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: trying to find them. But you know, as you had 290 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, they have come across, they have come across 291 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: skeletal remains. And I think a lot of that has 292 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that they went to this 293 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: very isolated area and and kind of flooded the zone 294 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: to use a basketball terminology, flooded the zone in order 295 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: to get as many eyes on this. And I'm corrected 296 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: that the actual area is two hundred and forty seven acres, 297 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: which you know, by our standards. Dave if you and 298 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: I had a plot of land here in Alabama two 299 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: and forty seven acres, we'd have a lot of land. 300 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 4: Dude. 301 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: When you get to Washington state, two hundred and forty 302 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: seven acres is well, it's two hundred forty seven acres, 303 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: but it ain't like it is in other areas. You know, 304 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: You've got a whole lot of other wilderness surrounding this area. 305 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: It's not just as one little park. So where could 306 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: he have gone? Well, they found skeletal remains out there, 307 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: and of course the alarms went up, And didn't you 308 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: say that they found these these skelt remains kind of 309 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: approximating where the girls were. 310 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 2: And I kind of wonder about that, But yes, that 311 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: the report's coming in that they were. The two hundred 312 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 2: and forty seven acres that they were searching was around 313 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: the area where the girls were found, in that camp area, 314 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: and that's I guess they went out from there based 315 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: on the terrain, which this is supposedly just horrific terrain 316 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: to walk into, you know, their hiking paths. Once you 317 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: get off path, you have a lot of fight in you. 318 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: So yeah, it was in the area near where the 319 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: baby That's why I think I even reached out to 320 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: you because it seemed odd that they would find it 321 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: so much later. You're talking from the first week of June, 322 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: and they find bones the third week of August, and 323 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: I would have thought that area near where the children 324 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: were found would have been searched out by now. They 325 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: wouldn't be finding new bones, you know. And by the way, 326 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: in the ninety to one hundred days out in the woods. 327 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: I know it's in the woods. I know it's August 328 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: and all that. I mean, I know it's summertime. But Joe, 329 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: would we be expecting to see skeleton or would we 330 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: body parts? 331 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: What will? 332 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 3: What would we be finding right now? 333 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: Well, at this point, you know, the girls think were 334 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: last seen like May thirtieth, If I'm not mistaken, I 335 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: think that's when. 336 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 3: They were found. June second was when their body found. 337 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: June second, we're several weeks down range now, a couple 338 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: of months downrange from when they were found deceased. But 339 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: yet Travis Decker has kind of up and vanished. The 340 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: big question is with the remains that are found, there 341 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: is there anything anything at all that could say, first off, 342 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: if it's him, and secondly, if it is him. 343 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: How did he die? 344 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: Dave? You know, one of the things about skeletal recovery 345 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: is that most of us be included, particularly early on 346 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: in my career, believe that believe that skeletal remains would 347 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: be quite striking when you saw them. One of the 348 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: problems is is that after remains have been out in 349 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: the open, it is quite striking how many times they'll blend. 350 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: They'll blend into the environment around you, even with surface remains. 351 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a matter that you don't 352 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: get your eyesight tuned into it, or if there's some 353 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: kind of natural blending that goes along, because many times 354 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: they'll be Let's say, for instance, you have skelter remains 355 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: that are laying out on a dirt surface or grass surface, 356 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: you have series of rainstorms that come through there, Well, 357 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: everything around that area is going to be splashed with mud. 358 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: So the bones, even if skelter remains are there, sometimes 359 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: they can be concurrently splashed with mud as well, and 360 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: they're almost camouflaged many times because they'll they'll get this 361 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: layer of dirt on them. Not to mention the changes 362 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: in the color of skeletal remains after they've been exposed 363 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: to the air for a period of time, and there's 364 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: other factors as well, So it's not like it's not 365 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: like some movie, you know, where you step out there 366 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: and you've got these these kind of bleached bones. You know, 367 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: like we have this image of like out in the 368 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: desert where you've got bleached bones that are laying out there. 369 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: There'll always be a skull or something like that, And 370 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: it's not like that at all, you know, Joe. It 371 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: just it doesn't happen. 372 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: The Susanne Morphew case, it was actually brought up when 373 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: they found him that these bones were bleached, meaning they 374 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: hadn't they hadn't been out there the whole time. I 375 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: thought that was remarkable, you know, in that case, and 376 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 2: that's something we will be covering again too. In those cases, 377 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: when you're finding bones in the wilderness while you're searching 378 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: for a man wanted for killing his three dogs, I 379 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: would think that you would find enough evidence around the 380 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: bone that you would know immediately it's human. I know 381 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: that's not the case, but that's what I would That's 382 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: what I thought before. And I thought, you got bones, 383 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: don't you have clothes nearby or on the bones? I 384 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: mean they don't that. Those are some things that I 385 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: don't quite understand. How long it takes for a body 386 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: to totally become bones and only bones and what happens. 387 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: It takes a lot longer than than two months. Okay, 388 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: you're still going to have some You're still going to 389 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: have some soft tissue. Now it might it really desicated. Yeah, 390 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: it might be desicated. Which if you know what a 391 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: desicant is, desication, it's it's literally kind of a drying out. 392 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: I only know because I've had to look that word 393 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 2: up when we've done this show, and I've said it before. 394 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking it up, going, what does that mean? 395 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: Well, listen, let me tell you something of Americans. When 396 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: they would they would skin, you know, skin animals. They 397 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: would use a uh and I'm talking years and years ago, 398 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: you know, when they're kind of still living tribally. You know, 399 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: you can there's great documentation of how they would create 400 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: their own leather and it's it's kind of a natural 401 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: natural vent andy. You can collect salt and put on 402 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: it and that sort of thing. And of course they 403 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: would scrape hides, they would hang them out and most 404 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: of the time when this is going on, this is 405 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: they try, you try to get things into direct sunlight, 406 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, in order to facilitate that. Uh. That's kind 407 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: of natural tanning that goes on. So uh as we know, 408 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: if you've ever been to you know, if anybody's ever 409 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: been to the Pacific Northwest, you can get in a 410 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: lot of sunshine homes. So you're not going to have 411 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: the same level of desiccation. It's this very moist environment 412 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: as well. Now there will be rotting flesh, a rotting tissue. 413 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: You can two months, Yeah, you'd still be able to 414 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: smell something. Another thing that we look for as well, 415 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: and this is rather disgusting, but it's really a big 416 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: tell for us, is that you look for a big 417 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: surrounding greasy area in the ground. And what that is 418 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: is all the bodily fluids and particularly the fat that 419 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: is kind of naturally rendering down. It gets into the 420 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: soil and even after you know, eight weeks or whatever 421 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: it is, you're still going to have that odor. You 422 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: still might have insect insect activity around because you know, 423 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: with flies in particular, it's like ringing the dinner bell. 424 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: They're going to keep coming back and coming back and 425 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: coming back, and that you know, and that's only one 426 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: species of insect, you know that we're talking about with flies. 427 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: You know, you have things that are out there. You've 428 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: got things like refer to as dung beetles. There's there's 429 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: a whole progression of these things, you know that kind 430 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: of show up at the scene. We use that as 431 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: an indication many times, try to come up with a 432 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: post more and amnerable for the dead. And then you 433 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: have animals that kind of come in and out and 434 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: off of you know, they enter, you know from stage 435 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: left or whatever, eggsit sage right, make an appearance, and 436 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: then they leave. But most of the time when they 437 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: make an appearance, if there is if there are remains 438 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: there that still have tissues tissue attached to them, They're 439 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: not always going to just sit there and feast. Okay, 440 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: what do animals want to do? Well, they want to eat. 441 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: They need that source of protein. They will take an 442 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: element from the body and go back to a burrow. 443 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: And even you know, if you've got a fox or something, 444 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: fox are kind of solitary. Foxes are kind of solitary animals. 445 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Raccoons or solitary animals or possums. They grab, they grab 446 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: an element, then they go back to the burrow, so 447 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: you can, you know, if you're really good at this. 448 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: There are people that are out there that look for 449 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: animal sign that you can bring onto the scene and 450 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: they'll say, yeah, this is this is a burrow where 451 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, some type of animal lives. And there are 452 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: documented cases of investigators going into animal burrows and finding 453 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: human bones in there. If you think that's wild birds, 454 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: birds will actually take human hair off the dead and 455 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: literally pad their nest with human hair. Wow, that has happened, yeah, wow, 456 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: and it's been documented. You know, it's kind of mind blowing. 457 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: You don't think that all of this this that this 458 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: kind of environment is this dynamic, but it is. And 459 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: the problem is is that for every skeletal element that 460 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: you take away, you're taking away a biological indicator of 461 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: what may have happened. So if there's some kind of trauma, 462 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: all right, let's just say, let's just say you've got 463 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: a long bone. The longest bone in your body is 464 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: are femur, which is the upper bone in your leg. Well, 465 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: if somebody's shot in the leg, okay, and they're left 466 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: out there to bleed, or they've been beaten up, and 467 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: you had a compound fracture, and their body has, you know, 468 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: begun to decompose, and some fox or something like this 469 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: walks up takes that long bone away. Well, all of 470 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: a sudden, you've got evidence of injury that just walked away. 471 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: This can even happen with bits of the skull. If 472 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: you have somebody that has self inflicted a gunshot wound 473 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: into their skull, it'll blow apart the skull. Now many 474 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: times when I say blow apart, let me refrain, is 475 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: that wrong phrasing? Okay, you will fracture the skull, and 476 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: the only thing that's still kind of holding the skull 477 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: together are those bits of soft tissue from the scalp. 478 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: But as the soft tissue degrades, you've got fractured bits 479 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: of bone from the skull they're lying about. Well, if 480 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: a raccoon takes it upon themselves to say, you know, 481 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: this looks like a tasting morsel, they'll take that bit 482 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: of bone that the external table of skull. You know, 483 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: they're examining it, thinking about they can eat it. They 484 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: walk off with it. Well, that piece of bone that 485 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: they're walking off with might hold evidence of a gunshot wound. 486 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: All right, And not only that it might be evidence 487 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: of not just a gunshot wound, but an entrance wound, 488 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: and you're suddenly losing that big piece of information. But 489 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: for these bones, in particular, Dave, that they're talking about, 490 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: there were found in proximity to where these precious little 491 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: babies were, you would have a forensic anthropologist out there 492 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: now off the record, an anthropologist might look at you 493 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: and say, if I'm hedging my bets here, I'm saying 494 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: this is not human, but I want to verify. Okay, 495 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: And you hear that that conversation happens a lot, so 496 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 1: they're not going to put that necessarily in an official report. 497 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: So the forensic anthropologist has to be at the scene. 498 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 4: Okay. 499 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: Now you'll call on FBI agents and people that are 500 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigators to help you recover the remains, 501 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: but we are not the people that are actually doing 502 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: the anthropological exam. That exam is literally going to take 503 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,239 Speaker 1: place back at their laboratory where if you get all 504 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: this like this goal for instance, that's why you have 505 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: to be very thorough. You're going to grab every little 506 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: bit of that skull and you're going to put it 507 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: in a paper bag. Okay, And they will take it 508 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: back to the lab and they will actually begin to 509 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: reconstruct the skull from that. If you and you can 510 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: see these skulls have been reconstructed and huge. Many times 511 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: you've got big missing gaps out of right, you know, 512 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: they're all all of the elements won't be there necessarily. 513 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: Let me ask you this show because you know you 514 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 2: mentioned that if a bone is found in the woods 515 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: and you've got somebody there that won't stay well it's human. 516 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: They won't come out and just boom it is this 517 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 2: or that. Based on their knowledge and experience, They're going 518 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: to take it back, going to examine it in the 519 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: lab to make sure what they're saying is anchored. I 520 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 2: get that, but it just seems to me that at 521 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: a certain level of experience expertise would lead you to say, 522 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: well this is probably you know, but it seems like 523 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: that to me. But do they all look the same 524 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: when you see pieces of bones out in the woods? 525 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: I mean, does my foot bone different? I mean, I 526 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: was there one hundred and fifty seven bones in your 527 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 2: foot or however many. But if you see a bone 528 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: from a human foot, does it resemble bones from a 529 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: pig or from a wild animal a bore. 530 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: No, the Yeah. When you're talking about the structure of 531 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: the human footeah, and you happen to land on an 532 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: element of the human human anatomy that's probably skelt From 533 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: a skeletal standpoint, it's one of the most complex structures 534 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: your ankle, feet, and your wrist hand are probably if 535 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: you're looking at it from an engineering perspective. There are 536 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: so many elements that are attached to this, and it's 537 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: very specific to humans. I would imagine that some and 538 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: I've never spent time examining this at all, but I 539 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: would imagine and maybe the closest you're going to come 540 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: it's probably you know, maybe the ape family, where you've 541 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: got opposable thumbs and that sort of thing, and the 542 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: feet might kind of resemble. But with the trained eye 543 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: they can spot it like that and say no. So 544 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: one of the big things that you find that you 545 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: recover a lot, particularly in cities, not there's kind of 546 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: it's kind of it's not really complex. But let me 547 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: just kind of break it down to you this way. 548 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: If you're in a city, most of the time, bone 549 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: elements that you find, they're going to come up one 550 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: or two ways. Either somebody's digging in their backyard or 551 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: their dog walks up with the bone. Most of time 552 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: in cities and my experience at least in the South, 553 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: they're hogbones and hogbones themselves. When you look at say, 554 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: the long bone features like you know, just like you 555 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: know animals like you know, like dogs and pigs and cattle, 556 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: they have fore legs and hind legs. So the structure 557 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: of those bones, they're long bones in particular, are not 558 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: going to appear the same as ours as humans. They 559 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: many times, particularly with hogs and bovine or cow bones, 560 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: they are going to be more robust. They'll be shorter, perhaps, 561 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: but they're going to be more robust. They're gonna be 562 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: have their circumference will be larger. They're having to bear 563 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: a lot of weight and in kind of a low 564 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: posture as opposed to us that you know, we stand upright, well, 565 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: most of us stand upright, you know, dependent upon how 566 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: many you know chevies as somebody has had. But all 567 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: jokes aside, you're you know, you're we're are structurally we're 568 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: just different. And so when you're at a scene, when 569 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: you're at a scene, you begin to think about, well, 570 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: is there any other evidence of human activity out here? 571 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: Is this so isolated? You want a factor in that circumstance. 572 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: And then you have to have as a forensic anthropologist, 573 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: you have to have an understanding of all the local 574 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: flora and fauna, particularly the fauna. You want to know 575 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: what animals might kind of migrate through this area, or 576 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: it's a hunting area for them, or maybe they have burrows. 577 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: When you understand the very species, it's not simply understanding 578 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: as an anthropologist understanding humans. You have to understand you 579 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: have to understand the animal activities too. I'll give you 580 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: a great story real quick up at ut it has 581 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: at the University of Tennessee where the body Farm is 582 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: one of the kind of gates you have to pass 583 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: through in your training, all right, and is doctor bass 584 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: allegedly used to have a doctor Bill Bassett that founded 585 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: the body farm used to have a box that he 586 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: would place skeletal remains in. And one graduate graduate student 587 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: would sit on one end of the box and there be 588 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: hole in a box and doctor bass would sit on 589 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: the other end of it with a whole on his side. 590 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: And you're doing this blindly. You have to shake hands 591 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: with him in the box and there's little skelter remains 592 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: all in there, and doctor Bass would grab that skeletal 593 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: element and hold it in just by feel alone, you 594 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: had to identify the species. That's how intense that training 595 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: is up there. 596 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 4: People. 597 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: You know they hear about the body farm and all this. 598 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: This is not for the faint of heart. You really 599 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: have to engage all of your senses when you're trying 600 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: to assess skelter remains. But Dave, I got to tell you, 601 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: I know people are going to be disappointed in what 602 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: I'm about to say. Whoever the anthropologist was that got 603 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: their hands on this collection, you know, this collection of 604 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: skalf remains. Do they they determined that not only were 605 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: they not Travis Decker, but they're not even human. We 606 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: know that they had access to DNA out there because 607 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: of the what they have discovered. You know, I think 608 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: that they released information that and just so that folks 609 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: understand and remember, these precious little babies. They were essentially suffocated. 610 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: They were suffocated with plastic bags, and these. 611 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 3: They actually find in those bags and on those ways. 612 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's the key thing here. It's not just 613 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: an external finding. And this this really chilled me. Dave, 614 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: I got to tell you we did. We done a 615 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: previous episode, right, and we had the stata then, but 616 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: I think that we need to revisit this. They found 617 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: allegedly found deckers DNA not just on the outside of 618 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: the bag, but from within the back. So these bags, 619 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: and there were multiple acts. One child had two children 620 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: had two bags over their head. It's almost like a 621 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: redundancy thing. Another child had three over their head. And 622 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: this kind of redundancy or backup plan relative to these murders, 623 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: that's evidence of somebody wanting to, you know, have fail 624 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: safes with this to guarantee that no oxygen was going 625 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: to get in there, you know. And I guess you 626 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: could say that if you had taken a single bag 627 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: and put off a child's head and kind of squeeze 628 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: around the neck and deprived them of oxygen. But it 629 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: goes to another level here when you've got this layering 630 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: of bags that goes in because we all, I know 631 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: the grocery plastic grocery bags are fragile, so and they tear. 632 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: I mean, how many times, Dave have you had a 633 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: bag tear when you're walking in the house. These things 634 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 1: they give you a check out and whatnot. It's happened 635 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: to me on countless occasions. I mean, they're crappy and 636 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: so they're not meant for long term use. So the 637 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: idea that if he is in fact guilty of killing 638 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: his children, he had an abundance of these bags. He 639 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: said that he had been living out there in the wilderness. Well, 640 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: he's probably living out of grocery bags. Because they talked 641 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: and that really stood out. I've never heard anybody mention 642 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: this before in a case where they talked about the 643 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: abundance of these bags that are out there. There's a 644 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: lot of them. And you know, it's not like he's 645 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: got garbage pickup that could come by and pick up 646 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: your garbage, like you can push it to the street, 647 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: waste pick up, you know, all that stuff. So if 648 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: you have a collection these bags, every time you go 649 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: into town or where it is you go to go 650 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: get more supplies, you bring these bags back with you 651 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: and you retain them because they have other utility. And unfortunately, 652 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: it would seem that they were literally weaponized. People use 653 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: that term a lot, but weaponized to facilitate a triple homicide. 654 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 2: Dave, Now, Joe, when when we went over this and 655 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 2: we talked about his DNA being found on the inside 656 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 2: of those bags. And you know, you and I both 657 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 2: have have a tough time dealing with children that are murdered, 658 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 2: especially by a parent by And I think of what 659 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 2: happened out in Colorado, you know where we actually had 660 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: Chris Watts talking about how he killed his children and 661 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: what he did with their bodies. And I know that 662 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,760 Speaker 2: there is evil on planet Earth. With regard to Travis Decker, 663 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 2: we only know, oh, we we found at that site. 664 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 2: But at that camps he left his GMC truck. He 665 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 2: said he abandoned it. But on the tailgate there was blood. 666 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 667 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: How I know that they can figure out whose blood 668 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 2: it is. Yeah, but I have to wonder, since he 669 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 2: suffocated the girls, where did the blood come from. 670 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: That's a good question because apparently, if memory serves me, 671 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: that was his blood that was there. I think that 672 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: they identified it genetically. 673 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 3: I hope one of those girls kick the crap out 674 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:36,919 Speaker 3: of him. 675 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, one would hope that, but he was And again, 676 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: to try to frame this thing out, we don't have 677 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: a lot of data relative to the status of the blood. Yeah, 678 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: like you know, you can have Okay, you and I 679 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: can sit here and say all day long we found blood. Okay, well, 680 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: how fresh was the blood was it? Because you can 681 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: have blood in a uh for folks that don't know. 682 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: As blood gets older, when you see it you come 683 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: across it, many times it'll it flakes like paint, Like 684 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: old paint, it'll kind of roll up, it'll fracture, you 685 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: know how paint will fracture if it dries out, and 686 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: it'll kind of curl up in these little fractured areas. 687 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: That's the way blood is. Only it happens quicker obviously 688 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: than paint does. Was it like that or was it 689 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: was it fresher where you know, maybe it had clotted up, 690 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: was it smeared? Was it a single contact you know, 691 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: had he drug his hand across an area? 692 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 4: Was it. 693 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: Dynamic deposition you know where you're talking about things like 694 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: cast off and all of that. Or was it passively dripping? 695 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: You know, So there's there's a whole lot to kind 696 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: of unpack with With a blood stain, you can say 697 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: you have a blood stain, but you don't know what 698 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: form it's taking. You don't know what status of that is. 699 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: And you know, going back to DNA, when they found 700 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: these bones that were out there. I'm sure that because 701 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: anthropologists look at something, it's called morphology, and so the 702 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: morphology of a bone pretty quickly you can ascertain that, 703 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: particularly once you get them cleaned up in there, back 704 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 1: and back in the lab, you can say, okay, these 705 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: are non human remains. So for people wondering if they 706 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: did DNA testing on the bone, maybe they did as 707 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: maybe a stopgap or just to because this is very 708 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: high profile cast. And but you know, an anthropologist worth 709 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: their salt could look at these bones. My suspicion is 710 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,879 Speaker 1: in a wilderness area like this, you're going to look 711 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: at maybe mule deer out in that area. There's a 712 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: lot of mule deer. You've got, you've got elk, very 713 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: specific species of elk. I don't know if I'd be 714 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:13,320 Speaker 1: inclined to bear necessarily, but you have to understand that this, 715 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: this triple homicide has taken place in the environment, in 716 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: literally the home of wild animals. 717 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 4: You know, if you. 718 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,720 Speaker 1: Come to a civilized area, a developed area, you find 719 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: our remains. You know, they're in graveyards all over the place. Well, animals, 720 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, don't bury their dead. They're surface depositions. Of remains, 721 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: and so it's not it's not beyond the pale that 722 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: you would walk up on, you know, a skeletonized animal 723 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: and find it there. It's compelling because it's so close 724 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: to the bodies. Right, we don't know anything about the 725 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: age of these remains either. 726 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 2: So now I will tell you one thing I thought of, 727 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 2: Joe is when the bones were found, I reached out 728 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,439 Speaker 2: to you and I thought of all those and met 729 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 2: so many of you at Crime Con. Thank you for 730 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 2: coming by the booth or watching Joe on stage is phenomenal, 731 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 2: But so many people don't have the ability to go, hey, Joe, 732 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: what is this? 733 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 3: You know, what did they find? 734 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 2: And you were laying you know, you pretty much told 735 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 2: me that you know that they already know what it is. 736 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 2: They have to confirm that's It's like the blood, it 737 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 2: looks like something that may be blood, but I'm not 738 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 2: saying that's blood. And same thing with these bones. It 739 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,359 Speaker 2: doesn't look to be human. But we're not even going 740 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 2: to say that because and I'm not knocking this. I 741 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 2: think the reason that they let the bone, I think 742 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 2: they could have ended the bone issue early on, saying 743 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 2: we don't believe they're human but we're testing. But instead 744 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 2: of saying that, they were able to redraw attention back 745 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,879 Speaker 2: into the case Travis Decker's face, because if he has 746 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 2: escaped and is out, you know somewhere, they got another 747 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 2: week of attention on his face, they still don't have him. 748 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 2: They still don't have his body. And all I was thinking, 749 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 2: somebody asked me if I thought he had committed suicide, 750 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 2: You really that when you commit suicide, unless you plan 751 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 2: it out when you're you know, you don't want to 752 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 2: be found. You're going into a cave or whatever to 753 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 2: hydrac Once you're dead, you don't get to move your body, 754 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: you know. So that's why we don't have too many 755 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 2: people that commit suicide that we don't find, because, yeah, 756 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 2: they are. 757 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: Right, and there's all kinds of haunts and hollers he 758 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: can go into out there in that wilderness and you know, 759 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: places that would greatly you know, impede of finding someone. 760 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: First off, i'd I think that at this point, because 761 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: this is compared to other cases, this is still rather recent, right, 762 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: I think that you would still find some sembilance of 763 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 1: of him. 764 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 3: You mentioned earlier, with the smell, you would smell his 765 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 3: decompoliity dogs. 766 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: Cadaver dogs would too. And I understand that they've been 767 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,120 Speaker 1: kind of pumping them through there, they had been. I 768 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: think they're kind of backed off. And to your point, 769 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, having so much experience with media, Dave, you 770 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: understand that cycling through this thing and getting him back 771 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: out there, the fact that they found these bones and 772 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: they could write articles about it, it does cycle him 773 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: back into the media. Because look, I do know this. 774 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: I know that Travis Decker he's not there, He's not 775 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:34,240 Speaker 1: in that space. He is somewhere. But the thing about 776 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: it is this, they have to continue to look. They 777 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: need to confirm that he's no longer with us, or 778 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,799 Speaker 1: that he's present bouncing around that upper tier of the 779 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: American States Idaho, Montana one of those locations, or he 780 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 1: slipped across the border into Canada. In order to have 781 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: a resolution, they've got to get their hands on either 782 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: him or his remains. I can assure you of this, brother, Dave, 783 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: and I will keep you in the loop. Any further 784 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,239 Speaker 1: information that comes out about this case, We're going to 785 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: talk about it. You know why we're going to talk 786 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: about it. It's not because of this man. It's because 787 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 1: of these three precious little saults that are no longer 788 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: with us. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.