WEBVTT - Erotomania: Stalking for Love 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:05.320 Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda land Audio in 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:13.640 partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to a 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.080 special Valentine's Day episode of Criminalia. So this season we're 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.720 exploring the lives and motivations of some of the most 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:25.040 notorious stalkers throughout history. And in today's episode, we're going 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.600 to talk about a form of stocking called erotomania and 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.000 how it's different from being a hopeless romantic. I'm Maria 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.440 Tremarqui and I'm Holly Fry and listen, everybody celebrates this 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.720 day differently, or maybe not even at all. I grew 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.959 up in a house where Valentine's Day was like a 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.920 family holiday. It didn't have the baggage of like a 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.080 romantic partner has to demonstrate their love to you, like 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.640 so much pressure. Right, Our parents would get us gifts like, 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.680 you know, a little RB or something when I was 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.760 a kid in like a little box of chocolates that 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:58.840 was our own. But so I always grew up thinking 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:01.080 about it as the day when you tell like all 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.560 the people in your life you love them, which has 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.320 served me very well, actually, I'm sure that it has. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.720 Like shouldn't shouldn't the day be that. Really, I'm kind 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.560 of with you on those. Even with my husband who 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.040 have been in the one time, we've never made a 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.480 big to do about Valentine's Day. Well, maybe go out 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.840 to dinner, but it's just not that loaded weird holiday 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.119 it can become for some people you must have red 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.560 roses or you're going to get worse. Right, So, for 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.400 a lot of people, Valentine's Day is celebrated that way 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.800 with flowers and chocolate and these other special and often 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.760 expected items that are gifted to significant others, and it 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.840 is generally, in the best sense, considered a day where 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.640 you celebrate the person you love. So I always think 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:48.000 it's interesting because, like around Valentine's Day, like romantic comedies 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.920 come out, and it would be fun to look at love. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.400 But when you boil down the stories of what a 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.800 romantic comedy often is, they don't always help how we 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.200 see stocking behaviors. Instead, they kind of create an image 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.960 of romance that shapes our perceptions and our expectations of 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.079 what love ought to be. Right, a lot of them 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.320 have that grand gesture that is supposed to be demonstrative 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.680 and in fact is often like not cool. We like 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.560 it in the movie, but if it happened to us 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.520 in real life, we'd be terrified. Right, Like Meg Ryan's 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.400 character Annie and Sleepless in Seattle is a good example. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.920 She behaves in a way that isn't really necessarily so 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.480 much what you might call love struck and charming, but 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.400 rather creepy. I know a lot of people that will 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.799 argue that this is a great romantic story, but if 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.560 you pause and think about it for a minute, this 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.920 is a character who, after hearing a man on the radio, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.720 decides that she is madly in love with him, flies 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:51.359 across the country, and then spies on him and his child. Right. 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:53.720 It's a completely new version of the movie, although it's 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.880 exactly the same version of the movie. If it had 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.760 been pitched that way, it would have been a whole 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.120 different thing, though I know they would have been like, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.840 I don't think we want to deepen. There's also the 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.400 movie While You Were Sleeping. Sandra Bullocks character Lucy. In 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.280 the movie, she pretends to be the fiance of a 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.040 man that she has never even spoken to. She makes 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.720 really good friends with his family. They know her really well. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.400 They can't wait for her to become a part of 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.400 it and that she marries his brother at the end, 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.320 which to me seems like some sort of like Victorian 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:32.000 Gothic like frishmash like some people might argue too, And 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.200 I have seen people discuss this that John cus X 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.680 character Lloyd Dobbler and say anything goes a little too 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.440 far with that boom Box serenade. That has often been 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.480 held as like apex romantic, particularly for people I think 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.440 in our age group that grew up where that hit 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.760 it exactly the right time. I think so too. I 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.560 think every gen X er was, you know at some 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.960 point like say anything in the boom Box scene. But 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.720 if you think about it now that you're like not 0:03:55.840 --> 0:04:02.280 a teenager, yeah, maybe not. But it's it's not just 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.400 in the movies, so I mean, it's it's a real 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.720 life phenomenon. It's not just Meg Ryan. For instance, in 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.080 the early eighties, probably one of the biggest ones that 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.000 we all will know is when John Hinckley Jr. Shop 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.880 President Reagan. If you didn't know, he did it to 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.440 impress actress Jodie foster Um before the shooting, though, he 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.320 asked Jody to give him a chance, and he wrote 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.159 to her quote, Jody, I would abandon this idea of 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.839 getting Reagan in a second, if I could only win 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.880 your heart and live out the rest of my life 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:35.359 with you. Um we'll just take a pause there for 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.479 a MOUs so obviously taken too far, romantic gestures could 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.080 result in criminal charges, and not for stealing your loved 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.719 one's heart. It is a problem if you start to 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.679 pursue someone who does not want your attention, your time, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.360 or your energy, and then you keep doing it when 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.520 that has been made clear to you. It is also 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.400 a problem if you're using an aggressive or obsessive tactics 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.039 that make the other person uncomfortable or afraid of you. 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:05.239 So spotting the difference between a stalker and a romantic partner. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.279 If you knew how to do that, you could save 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.719 your life. Yeah, for things to be considered stalking, the 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.200 contact made by the stalker has to be unwanted. We're 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.640 talking about non consensual interactions, even if they're fairly benign 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:22.479 social type interactions. Today, around half of all stalkers in 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.240 the United States are former domestic partners, and up till 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.920 one and four of the entire US population has experienced 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:35.560 being stalked. That's a huge number. Um, So to the professionals, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:40.400 it's stalkers with the most emotional investment who are considered 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.440 one of the most dangerous types of stalker. Uh. This 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.039 type of stalker is more likely to have thoughts along 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.160 the lines of, you know, if I can't have you, 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.800 no one else can have you either, And there are 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.520 studies that back this up. The research says that stalking 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:59.279 is associated with lethal and near lethal violence against women 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.799 and definitely rings true. As many as sevent of internet 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.840 partner female murder is preceded by stalking. So that's all 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.320 a little heavy, and we probably all could use just 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.280 a moment of a break, So we're going to do that, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.000 and when we return, we're going to draw the line 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.360 between romance and stalking because it can be a little fuzzy. 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:37.120 Welcome back to criminalia. So now let's talk about what 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:42.200 erotomania is. So that question we first posed, how does 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.120 one differentiate between a hopeless romantic and a stalker? We'll 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.040 just start with a short answer and just go from there. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:54.000 The real distinction here is that love is selfless, but 0:06:54.640 --> 0:07:00.359 a stalker's let's say, affections aren't selfless, their demand ending, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.080 and those affections are based on the belief that the 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.039 person who is stalking has an entitlement to the other 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:12.480 person's affections and in some instances, in entitlement to their lives. So, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.480 if you have been dumped, it is a really terrible feeling, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.440 and you might engage in some types of intrusive behaviors. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.480 You may plead for your partner to return. This is 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.800 an abnormal It's considered a pretty normal behavior, but researchers 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.160 have found that when that behavior continues for more than 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:33.680 two weeks, it is more likely to transition to becoming abnormal, 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.559 and then it becomes hard to stop it. Yeah. In fact, 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.160 they did studies where they had brain scans of those 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.480 who had been recently jilted, and they found that those 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.320 brains are actually more active in the areas that are 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:51.000 associated with things like anxiety and anger, and pain and 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.760 addiction and risk taking, an obsession and compulsion. So, whether 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.000 it's a former partner or a complete stranger, this is 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.160 where your internal quote unquote creepy meter comes into play. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.360 There is an author by the name of Gavin Debecker 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.880 who called it the gift of fear. We all have 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.800 a gut feeling and our internal mechanism for detecting danger. 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.320 The short version of this is like, just always trust 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.400 your gut. Is something feels creepy to you, better safe 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.400 and sorry. So there's this specific type of stocking that 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.800 we keep mentioning but we haven't really gotten into, and 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.760 it's erotomania, which is a mental health problem, and it's 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.800 a form of paranoid delusion. It's usually also linked to 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.280 another mental health condition, such as schizophrenia, but it doesn't 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.840 have to be. With this condition, a person has delusional 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.640 and intense beliefs that another person is in love with them, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.400 and that person, interestingly, is usually someone who is of 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.440 a higher social status, such as a celebrity or a politician, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.440 but fixations on random strangers and you know, acquaintances aren't 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.160 unheard of. A stock are suffering from arotomania might act 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.080 perfectly normal in most parts of their life, but as 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.720 this obsession and delusion grows, some stalkers begin to see 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.520 hidden messages and nonverbal cues in everyday things, such as 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.920 the numbers on license plates or the messages on those 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.400 Valentine conversation hearts that they feel like, are you know, 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.559 validating their feelings right, which they are absolutely not. But 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.320 um So. This condition also seems to be a little 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.000 more common in women than in men um and it 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:39.360 usually happens around midlife, maybe later, And while it might 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.080 last for a few weeks, it could also last for years. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.120 Stalkers with erotomania may do things like loiter in the 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:52.760 victim's vicinity, telephone or text their victim, leave gifts, or 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.960 even post information or spread rumors about the victim, either 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.080 on the Internet or in some other public place, or 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.199 even by word of ma else So interestingly, the statistic 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.760 came up in our research about this condition, and it's 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:11.839 not specifically about stalkers. This statistic is about the whole population. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.520 Forty six percent of Americans admit to stalking a partner, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.840 either their current partner or an x by checking in 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:27.120 on them online without their knowledge or consent. I think 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.480 that's pretty common. I'm not actually surprised by that number, 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.520 but I feel that the number is high, although I 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.120 probably would have guessed higher, right. I mean, I think 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.080 it's not completely outside the realm of possibility that someone 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.680 on a whim, whether it's like someone you were romantically 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.560 involved with or not, but just someone that used to 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.120 be in your life. You'll go, I wonder what they're 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.040 up to, or maybe you even want to see, like 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.199 I wonder how much their life fell apart? Right, give 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.800 them a quick search on a social media network, which 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.000 I actually really personally think is okay. I think if 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.719 you keep going back every day, then you have a 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:04.959 little rights a one time check in you know what 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.760 up to now pretty normal. It's kind of like it 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.640 grows out of that sense that we all have of 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.680 being so easily connected to information that we want. That 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.319 transition to looking up someone you used to date or 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.880 you used to know pretty normal. In my book, if 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.560 you feel stalked by someone in this manner or in 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:26.240 any other type of stalking, authorities recommend being forceful and 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.560 direct when confronting the person about their unwanted behavior. Don't 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.400 try to let them down easy or worry about hurting 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.000 their feelings. Stalkers who want your love and attention are 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.319 not in the right frame of mind to really understand 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.920 the idea of being let down easy. You can't leave 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.199 anything open to interpretation. Basically, so when forceful and direct 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.280 communication doesn't work, or if you are super uncomfortable doing 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.120 it yourself, the authorities can intervene and deliver that message 0:11:54.160 --> 0:12:10.920 for you. Welcome back to Criminalia. Now that we have 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:15.120 talked about Valentine's Day, Holly, um, it's the least romantic 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.280 Valentine's Day show of all top very much. So I'll 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.840 be at your house watching you through your window as 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.000 you put together in this special drink for us, and 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.600 I would invite in and give you one, but you 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.719 have to wear a mask. Well I would, but I 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:37.880 would prefer to stand outside your Okay. So I wanted 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.600 to make something fun for Valentine's Day. Whether you drink 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.000 it with someone that you love or just on your 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.800 own or both. I'm just going to tell you right 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.640 up front, there's a lot of alcohol. It's called it 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.520 Sneaks Up on You, and it is basically a twist 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.080 on a Long Island iced tea. It's a little tongue 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.360 in cheek and I don't mean to in any way 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.120 like down play the seriousness of stalking. But I just 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.880 thought for a drink that would be a fun name 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.720 because it does, it tastes delicious, and then it's too late. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.280 It starts with a handful of strawberries. Muddle those strawberries 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.080 in your glass. I used to pint glass. So you know, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.760 like three or four strawberries in the bottom is great 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.800 if they're medium, too large, and then you're going to 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.800 pour in three quarters of an ounce of vodka, or 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:25.520 if you're me, just bumped that one up to announce 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:30.480 because of vodka favorite, just pour it. No, don't pour 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.760 with a bandit. Yeah, I'm sorry, don't follow my instructions. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.280 Three quarters of an ounce of rum, three quarters of 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.640 an ounce of tequila, three quarters of an ounce of gin. 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.520 I only use a half ounce of triple sec and 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.800 then an ounce of rose syrup, which is really the 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.440 magic trick here. I love when you put rose in 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.760 the but you are definitely not lying when you call 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.079 this a twist on the Long Island. It's basically the 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.800 recipe for a long Island until you get to the 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.920 rose syrup. I also add a few drops of bidders. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.160 Floral bidders are great for a drink like this. I 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.480 have one that actually has rose as the primary note 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.520 in it. And then after you muddle the strawberry is 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.440 good to throw ice in. But if you've forgotten until now, 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.480 throw the ice in now, and then you just top 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.520 it with either a lemon lime soda or a ginger ale. 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.880 And then I just sliced a couple of additional strawberries 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.880 and put them on the rim as a garnish to 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.920 make it very pretty. It's so pretty. It tastes like roses, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.840 and you can't taste any of all of those ounces 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.560 of alcohom which is amazing. Like it's a It's a 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.960 beautiful little drink. It's a very pretty color, and it'll 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.200 get you something. Don't like to use um white rum 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.320 and silver tequila in their long islands. I am not 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.480 picky about that. I had a gold tequila and my 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.200 rum was actually a colored drum. It came out a 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.640 beautiful rose gold color. It looks so don't worry about 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.760 the rum color. It comes out looking great. Yeah. So 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.400 this might be my favorite drink I've ever. I think 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.440 I've said that a few times before, but I firmly 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.320 say this one for the moment at least wins until 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.880 I come up with something better. Does this displace the 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.160 white toad drink? To me, it's a better drink than 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.280 the white Toad. I will continue to probably favor the 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.280 white Toad because it's easy to make and I can 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.600 just churn those out and have that the limits a 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.560 lovely this there's a lot more work, You've got more pull, 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.760 there's muddling guy ling exactly. You might not have fresh 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.920 strawberries on hand all the time, but I think it's 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.560 a winner. So whether that is your Valentine stay drink 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:36.880 or just something you want to try any old day 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:42.680 of the year, it sneaks up on you as well 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:49.160 every other episode, right, this might be a good time 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.200 to let people know this is a shorter season than 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.360 Poisoner since it is creepier, not not as long. We'll 0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.120 move on to a whole other crime to different creepy. 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.480 Thank you so much. We hope you have enjoyed this 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.840 bonus episode for Valentine's Day. Uh and mit us right 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.360 back here on our regular publishing day of Tuesdays, and 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:15.520 we'll have more stalker talk for you next week. Criminalia 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.160 is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.680 I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.040 please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:26.960 wherever you listen to your favorite shows.