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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

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Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

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Speaker 1: Captain Ron.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Content,

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Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today we

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Speaker 3: have two friends returning to the show. They have each

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Speaker 3: individually been doing great work in the space and now

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Speaker 3: together they are two of the co founders of Ontocolypse Productions.

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Speaker 3: That's Kelly Chase and j Christopher King, the two people

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Speaker 3: behind the new series called Cosmosis, UFOs and a new reality.

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Speaker 3: Hey guys, great to see you.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Ron, thanks so much for having us.

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Speaker 5: So good to be here.

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Speaker 3: Of course, we're looking forward to Contact in the Desert.

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Speaker 3: You guys are going to be there this year. Going

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Speaker 3: to be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely can't wait. We've been talking about it. Actually my favorite.

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Speaker 4: Event of the year. Yep, it's an absolute blast.

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Speaker 3: Awesome. So I watched the first three episodes of your

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Speaker 3: series and I really enjoyed it. It was very refreshing

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Speaker 3: to me because you guys actually took an entirely new,

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Speaker 3: honest approach to this phenomenon, kind of like I expected

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Speaker 3: you would, you know. I find it very refreshing that

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Speaker 3: it's not just another one of these UFO docs that

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Speaker 3: rehashes versions of what we've already heard and what we

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Speaker 3: already know, but rather I found it to be a

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Speaker 3: very honest, hard look at the UFO phenomenon and the

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Speaker 3: different anomalies and the different ways we probably should be

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Speaker 3: looking at this topic. You can tell you guys put

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Speaker 3: a lot of work into this and a lot of

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Speaker 3: thought about how to craft that. What was that like?

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Speaker 4: Oh gosh, well, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Ron.

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Speaker 6: I really appreciate that, you know, it's been It was

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Speaker 6: a really long journey, and I think, you know, Jay

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Speaker 6: and I kind of spent about eighteen months from start

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Speaker 6: to finish on this project really trying to figure out

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Speaker 6: what it was going to be, because we wanted to

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Speaker 6: create something that was accessible to, you know, people who

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Speaker 6: are newer to this topic. But we also didn't want

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Speaker 6: to just be treading the same trails over and over

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Speaker 6: and over again, and we wanted to do what we

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Speaker 6: could to move the conversation forward and to do so

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Speaker 6: in a way that experiencers and other people in the

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Speaker 6: community have been studying this for a long time felt

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Speaker 6: sort of seen and represented, and it wasn't just kind

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Speaker 6: of the same old news clippings that we've been rehashing

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Speaker 6: for the past several years.

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Speaker 3: Now we see that all the time, So that really

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Speaker 3: was an awesome part for me. You know. In this series,

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Speaker 3: you guys also explore this larger notion, one that I've

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Speaker 3: actually been expressing a lot on this very show lately,

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Speaker 3: and that's that government disclosure is not this simple quick

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Speaker 3: thing that people think it ought to be, like here's

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Speaker 3: the aliens and here's the ships, and that's it. If

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Speaker 3: we suddenly became apparent to one hundred percent of the

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Speaker 3: population that everyone understands that the UFO phenomenon is now

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Speaker 3: indeed real, then all of our trusted legacy institutions that

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Speaker 3: we've come to rely on to understand our world for

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Speaker 3: years and years and years, the government, media, academia, all

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Speaker 3: of these suddenly were completely wrong and you're faced with

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Speaker 3: questioning everything they told us.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, Our second episode in Cosmosis is very much

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Speaker 5: along those lines, just kind of examining how do we

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Speaker 5: accept what's true, how do we kind of like trust

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Speaker 5: legacy institutions, academia, you know, the government, it, startups, science,

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Speaker 5: anything along these lines, like how do we trust these people?

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Speaker 5: How do we find trust? How do we find out

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Speaker 5: our beliefs? Like how do we find out about our

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Speaker 5: own world? And you know, as Kelly mentions in the

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Speaker 5: second episode, you know, we don't have to know how

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Speaker 5: to change our oil in our car because our mechanic does.

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Speaker 5: We don't have to know how to fix a broken

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Speaker 5: arm because our doctor does, right, and we trust each other.

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Speaker 5: But then what happens when that trust starts to break down?

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Speaker 5: And what we see in this subject is that there's

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Speaker 5: such a range of things that you can really zero

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Speaker 5: in on that are of utmost importance to us, not

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Speaker 5: just as individuals, but as a culture, as a society.

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Speaker 5: There are so many people that want to focus and

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Speaker 5: very understandable on the cover up, the giant cover up

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Speaker 5: that has existed in very world governments for seventy years,

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Speaker 5: eighty years, you know, possibly a lot longer than that,

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Speaker 5: in various societies. And at the same time, we have

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Speaker 5: to recognize that the national security state is not about

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Speaker 5: transparency and it never has been right. And so how

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Speaker 5: do we look at that? Is there a way to

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Speaker 5: look at this phenomenon more directly with fresh eyes? Can

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Speaker 5: we study this ourselves, like, how do we approach this

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Speaker 5: without looking at the Rubik's cube, without looking at like

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Speaker 5: the crazy rat mas the four D chess game that

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Speaker 5: is the national security state? Is there a way around that?

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Speaker 5: Is there a way to really kind of embrace this

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Speaker 5: stuff on our own and really like look at each other,

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Speaker 5: compare notes with each other, and like make progress because

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Speaker 5: it seems to me and I know, you know, I

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Speaker 5: don't want to speak for Kelly, but we have to

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Speaker 5: take an all roads approach to these issues.

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Speaker 3: Sure, you know, you guys also look at how government

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Speaker 3: secrecy might be far more complicated and far more intentional

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Speaker 3: than I think most people believe. It's the way the

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Speaker 3: UFO secret was handled. It's not just a matter of

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Speaker 3: deny every time someone says, hey, I saw a UFO,

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Speaker 3: Well deny that, But rather it's an orchestrated perception management

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Speaker 3: for the public at large to not believe this. If

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Speaker 3: you stigmatize this subject and make people afraid to talk

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Speaker 3: openly about it, which made this cover up possible, it's

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Speaker 3: not really a secret as much as it's a conditioning

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Speaker 3: to just ignore it all together.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that's a great assessment of the situation.

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Speaker 6: And I think what makes that so complicated is that,

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Speaker 6: you know, now we're left kind of asking questions about,

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Speaker 6: you know, what can we do outside of that, Like

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Speaker 6: how can we possibly make sense of things when we

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Speaker 6: know that so much of the information that we've gotten

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Speaker 6: about this topic has been so sullied.

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Speaker 4: By that cover up?

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Speaker 6: And also, you know, even as disclosure moves forward, like

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Speaker 6: Jay and I both very much support disclosure, I think

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Speaker 6: getting our government to be more transparent with us about

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Speaker 6: really anything, especially this topic, is extremely important.

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Speaker 4: Really exactly exactly, and we're all about that.

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Speaker 6: The problem becomes that at a certain point we let

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Speaker 6: the disclosure narrative kind of subsume the conversation about ufology

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Speaker 6: and what this thing actually is and most of the

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Speaker 6: information that we're getting about it, and that the information

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Speaker 6: that people tend to take the most seriously is that

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Speaker 6: information that's coming to us through the military intelligence apparatus,

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Speaker 6: which are the same people who've been lying to us

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Speaker 6: from the beginning. And if they've changed their minds and

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Speaker 6: now they suddenly want to start telling us more about it,

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Speaker 6: it's probably not because they're having a crisis of conscience,

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Speaker 6: and probably because it serves some other function or answers

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Speaker 6: some other risk that's emerged. But the thing, the information

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Speaker 6: we're getting from them is not transparency. It's just information

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Speaker 6: that they would like.

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Speaker 3: Us to have exactly. It's not. And in fact, you

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Speaker 3: guys point that out very specifically, Kelly, the way you

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Speaker 3: cite that Paul Bennott's case, the famous case, which I

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Speaker 3: think is the one that Richard Dody talks about as well,

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Speaker 3: and he came forward about all of his involvement with that.

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Speaker 3: This shows how it isn't simply just denial. Instead, it's

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Speaker 3: an intentional manipulation of someone's beliefs. They let him think

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Speaker 3: that he was seeing an ET and they acted like

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Speaker 3: they were working with him, but in fact they were

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Speaker 3: feeding him disinformation the entire time. This is really disturbing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely. I mean he was near an Air Force

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Speaker 5: base in Albuquerque, and you know Greg Bishop and his

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Speaker 5: great book Project Beta really goes into this case and

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Speaker 5: a lot of depth. And we have Greg in for

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Speaker 5: the show to talk about it, and Daniel Alzando and

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Speaker 5: Kelly and I both kind of amplify that a bit.

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Speaker 5: Paul Benowitz, he was a good citizen. He saw weird

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Speaker 5: stuff in the sky around the air Force base and

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Speaker 5: he chose to report it, and it got him into

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Speaker 5: giant amounts of trouble because all of a sudden there

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Speaker 5: were these disinformation agents like Richard Dody, who Greg believed

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Speaker 5: to be like other factions through the NSA, that were

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Speaker 5: actually actively disinforming him. They handed him in a computer

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Speaker 5: and he built an antenna, and they started feeding him

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Speaker 5: these wild messages that seemed to be from off world

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Speaker 5: intelligences and here trade themselves as such.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all that people's onion like you're explaining here. To me,

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Speaker 3: it's almost more scary to think that they could manipulate

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Speaker 3: you like that than facing a real alien.

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Speaker 6: No, I think it is terrifying, and I think it's

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Speaker 6: something that we need to take more seriously. We actually

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Speaker 6: went back and forth about whether or not we would

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Speaker 6: even include Richard Doty in that story, because he has

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Speaker 6: a major character in the Paul Benowitt story and we

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Speaker 6: as he is in a lot of stories about disinformation.

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Speaker 6: But we ended up deciding not to.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we didn't. We didn't mention him, and I think.

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Speaker 6: Part of the reason we decided to do that was

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Speaker 6: I think sometimes it's really easy for us to have boogeyman,

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Speaker 6: you know, and to take all of these kind of

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Speaker 6: nefarious activities and to assign them to one individual and say, oh,

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Speaker 6: he's bad. And what we really wanted to emphasize was

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Speaker 6: not like, here's Richard Doty and he did some bad things,

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Speaker 6: but rather, this is how the system works. The system

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Speaker 6: works to both produce and encourage doties.

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Speaker 3: You made an excellent choice by doing that. And then

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Speaker 3: I come in here and spill it, Oh that was

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Speaker 3: Richard Doughty.

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Speaker 6: I didn't mean oh no, no, it's a good part

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Speaker 6: of the cons He's a huge part of the story.

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Speaker 4: He absolutely it is a part.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and we knew we were going to amplify it

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Speaker 5: in situations like this on podcasts and appearances later. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's kind of like the core meat of the show,

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Speaker 5: Cosmosis itself that's going to start conversations like this one

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Speaker 5: where we can really dig into the details and we

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Speaker 5: can really kind of like sift through that and amplify

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Speaker 5: things and start to like send people down those wonderful

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Speaker 5: UFO rabbit holes that Kelly has charted out so well.

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Speaker 3: You made him to say that, You made I listen.

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Speaker 3: When we come back, we're going to talk to Jay

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Speaker 3: and Kelly some more about how the government may be

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Speaker 3: hiding the truth and specifically about Errow, the organization that

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Speaker 3: was supposedly here to provide transparency for us on the top.

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Speaker 6: Ha ha.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, you're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 3: Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast network. We are back

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Speaker 3: on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay, Christopher King, and

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Speaker 3: Kelly Chase about their new series, Cosmosis, UFOs and a

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Speaker 3: new reality. Kelly, I found it very interesting in the

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Speaker 3: piece when you pointed out that Arrow spent I think

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Speaker 3: it was one hundred thousand investigating the topic of UFOs.

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Speaker 3: But they spent over a million dollars to hire a

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Speaker 3: PR agency to control the messaging. This is very taling.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, isn't it though? Yeah, that one hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 6: It was for a joint study with NASA, which in

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Speaker 6: and of itself is a little bit funny because I

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Speaker 6: THINKNASA probably has a lot more.

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Speaker 4: They're like NASA all of a sudden being.

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Speaker 6: Like, gosh, we should really look into the UFO thing.

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Speaker 6: It's like a little bit funny objectively, but still it

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Speaker 6: seems like a good use of funds. But only one

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Speaker 6: hundred thousand dollars. That's like a press release and some

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Speaker 6: snacks like I don't know what you're going to do

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Speaker 6: with that. But they spent one point nine million dollars

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Speaker 6: on contracting with an organization that does like perception management.

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Speaker 4: For the DoD That's what they do.

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Speaker 6: It's what it says on their website, and so it

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Speaker 6: feels like all you have to do is follow the

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Speaker 6: money and you know where people's priorities are.

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Speaker 3: It's very very telling and very scary to me. You know,

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Speaker 3: Arrow has been clearly nothing more than a disinformation campaign

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Speaker 3: from my view. You guys interviewed a witness in your

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Speaker 3: series and he testified to them for four hours. I

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Speaker 3: think it was. And we all know others who have testified.

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Speaker 3: We've all interacted with these people, the government and military

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Speaker 3: guys who give their full testimony to Arrow. And then

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Speaker 3: Ero comes out with a statement saying there's nothing at

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Speaker 3: all to indicate anything of an et nature that must

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Speaker 3: hurt these guys. And you know they would have come

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Speaker 3: out and said, it's not definitive. We are not one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent sure what's happening. That's fine. I don't know

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Speaker 3: what's happening. I don't think you guys know. I don't

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Speaker 3: know anybody that knows what's happening. But to flat out

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Speaker 3: say nothing was offensive to me.

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Speaker 5: Not just that. But I went down It was one

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Speaker 5: of the few shoots that Kelly didn't go on. I

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Speaker 5: think it was the only shoot that Kelly didn't go

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Speaker 5: on actually for the whole series. I went down to

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Speaker 5: well an undisclosed location with Jordan Flowers or one of

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Speaker 5: our other EPs, and we shot with Mario Woods like

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Speaker 5: an incredible UFO witness, very pertinent to so many things,

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Speaker 5: including the recent quote unquote Jersey drones, this whole kind

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Speaker 5: of flap that's been happening recently over military installations and

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Speaker 5: other places like pickets in the arsenal and ius and others.

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Speaker 5: And Mario was faced with this back in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 5: He was guarding a nuclear launch facility in South Dakota

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Speaker 5: and he saw a giant fire ball that he describes

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Speaker 5: as the side of a Walmart building, which is quite

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Speaker 5: evocative and maybe tells you where he lives in the world,

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Speaker 5: not in the middle of New York City like some

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Speaker 5: of us. And he saw beings there and like they

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Speaker 5: were right over a launch facility, I mean right over

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Speaker 5: where these missiles come out of the doors. And he disappeared.

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Speaker 5: They couldn't find him for hours, and his jeep showed

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Speaker 5: up in the middle of the mud and snow with

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Speaker 5: no tire tracks around it, miles from where they disappeared.

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Speaker 5: It's an extraordinary case. You know, this is a guy

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Speaker 5: who's very plugged in with people like Robert Hastings and

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Speaker 5: Robert Solace. They're all very conversant. They talk to each

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Speaker 5: other you know, Robert Hastings of course, who wrote the

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Speaker 5: seminal text UFOs and Nukes, and Mario he showed me

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Speaker 5: while I was there, he showed me and Jordan the

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Speaker 5: correspondence between him and Arrow and it went back and forth,

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Speaker 5: and Arrow was blowing so much smoke to Mario about like,

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Speaker 5: you know, what it would do, and how they needed

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Speaker 5: his testimony and what they would do with and this,

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Speaker 5: that and the other thing. And we were able to

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Speaker 5: show one of those docs on the show, and that

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Speaker 5: was an exclusive for us that I really appreciate Mario

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Speaker 5: giving to us. But like you know, these are liars.

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Speaker 5: They're not just liars to the public in general, and

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Speaker 5: they're not just doing this for perception management. I mean

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Speaker 5: these are institutional level liars. That's what they do there.

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Speaker 5: And this whole like facade where it's like, oh, Kirkpatrick,

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Speaker 5: he's you know, he moved on to Oak Ridge, and

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Speaker 5: so we've got another guy. And then you have these

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Speaker 5: ex military, these ex intelligence X intelligence, as if that's

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Speaker 5: even a thing. They sit there and they say, oh,

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Speaker 5: well there's a new guy. Let's give them another year

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Speaker 5: and let's see what happens. And it's like how long

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Speaker 5: are we going to hit How long are we going

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Speaker 5: to hit fresh and repeat on this? How long are

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Speaker 5: we going to be lying to and allow these people

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Speaker 5: to say, like, let's give him more time, let's give

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Speaker 5: him more time. We know what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: And forever, because they did it with grunge, they did

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Speaker 3: it with you know, blue book, all of these sign

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Speaker 3: This has been going on since the dawn of the

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Speaker 3: modern UFO era, and it's disgusting to me, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's getting worse and worse today as social media

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Speaker 3: is clearly being used to manipulate perceptions by the public,

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Speaker 3: foreign adversaries purposely trying to infiltrate our social media and

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Speaker 3: persuade people. I think it's done right here at home.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that we feed this beast specifically on this topic,

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Speaker 3: and we can see how easily people can be manipulated

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Speaker 3: by being fed disinformation that has played out before all

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Speaker 3: of us in the last five years. So ultimately, I

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Speaker 3: think this is headed in the wrong direction. It's going

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Speaker 3: to get a lot worse, not better, with the proliferation

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Speaker 3: of deep fakes and AI. What do you guys think?

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Speaker 4: No, I completely agree.

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Speaker 6: I think that in some ways we've always been our

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Speaker 6: own worst enemy in the UFO community, you know, because

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Speaker 6: we are so networked to each other, and because it's

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Speaker 6: such a small community, and because everyone's so like hungry

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Speaker 6: for more information that we've always been kind of ripe

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Speaker 6: for that in terms of intelligence, you know, infiltration. But

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Speaker 6: social media is absolutely ramped it up to a whole

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Speaker 6: other level. And I don't think that there's nearly enough

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Speaker 6: conversation going on in our communities.

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Speaker 4: About how do we kind of have hygiene.

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Speaker 6: In both like the personal and the community level where

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Speaker 6: we're kind of stepping back and trying to keep ourselves

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Speaker 6: from getting to you know, as we're bringing all of

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Speaker 6: this stuff in. You see, like anytime there's new piece

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Speaker 6: of information or like a new person who claims to

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Speaker 6: be a whistleblower, or you know, a new something that's released,

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Speaker 6: everyone descends like filters and we're like.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no no.

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Speaker 6: But in doing that by jumping on things so immediately,

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Speaker 6: by always feeling like we need to offer an opinion

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Speaker 6: or to come down on a side, or like decide

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Speaker 6: who's right and wrong on these things, and like kind

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Speaker 6: of the topic of the day that comes out in

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Speaker 6: the community. I think that we're kind of doing the

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Speaker 6: intelligence community's job for them in terms of muddying the waters.

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Speaker 6: And I think at a community level it would really

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Speaker 6: behoove us to have more conversations about how to handle

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Speaker 6: this stuff better.

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Speaker 3: I can imagine people just loving it sitting back that

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Speaker 3: are doing this because we, like you said, do the

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Speaker 3: work for them and disseminate that and fight over it

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Speaker 3: and everything. You know, in fairness, this does happen not

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Speaker 3: just in our community, Like even I've heard how they

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Speaker 3: talk about this in the sports world, how they're all

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Speaker 3: fighting to be the first to release that this guy's

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Speaker 3: going to get signed by this company for this much,

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Speaker 3: and they're all fighting to be that one because you've

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Speaker 3: got to follow this guy who's going to have the

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Speaker 3: information first. And it's great that this information is being

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Speaker 3: shared by a lot of people and not just coming

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Speaker 3: from the top. But on the other hand, it's getting

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Speaker 3: really kind of messy now, and it's just going to

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Speaker 3: get worse in my view. You know, another interesting point

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Speaker 3: that someone made on your doc that some of the

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Speaker 3: secrecy is unintentional, which is something that I have never

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Speaker 3: thought about. I thought that was novel. People naturally don't

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Speaker 3: like talking about things that we don't understand, and we

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Speaker 3: typically don't like sharing those things with others. Now, I

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Speaker 3: personally think the exact opposite of that. There's no point

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Speaker 3: in talking about what we know, anything that's been discovered

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Speaker 3: or known to me. It's like, well, it's already out there.

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Speaker 3: Whatever I want to talk about the unknown.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think that's what sets people like you and

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Speaker 5: Kelly and I and many of your listeners apart from

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Speaker 5: the general kind of consensus reality out there. Hoth of

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Speaker 5: my listeners, yeah, all of them, all of them. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 5: I think that. You know, sometimes it's it's a conscious

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Speaker 5: bias towards wanting to kind of shave off the inconvenient details.

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Speaker 5: You see something really weird, you see what seems to

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Speaker 5: be a ghost, and like something else happens. You hear

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Speaker 5: a voice, or there's something that seems to be connected

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Speaker 5: to it, but you can't make a rational connection for

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Speaker 5: somebody else that makes any sense because all of this stuff,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's all under the rubric of high strangeness. Right,

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Speaker 5: we need to talk about it because we need a

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Speaker 5: fuller picture. People will sit there and they'll be like, ah,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, Like I feel like these two things

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Speaker 5: are connected. This thing happened, and then two weeks later,

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Speaker 5: this other thing happened. I can't draw a rational connection,

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Speaker 5: so how can I tell somebody else? It'll just make

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Speaker 5: it sound more crazy. And so people self edit and

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Speaker 5: sometimes like your brain even you know, depending on the

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Speaker 5: level of cortisol in your brain and or cortisol pumping

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Speaker 5: through your body and other things like this, like people

393
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 5: well or yes, it could be that. But like, regardless

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Speaker 5: of whether somebody's sober, tired or in some other state,

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Speaker 5: the brain has a magical ability to essentially take out

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Speaker 5: the trash when we find ourselves in a situation that's

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Speaker 5: incredibly stressful. This happens in car accidents, This happens when

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Speaker 5: people fall off ladders. This happened trauma, people have heart attacks,

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Speaker 5: any kind of trauma. And for the brain to see

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Speaker 5: something that's so against a conception of reality, it seems

401
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Speaker 5: to have a similar response in certain situations with high strangeness.

402
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Speaker 5: And so people will have this kind of patchy memory

403
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Speaker 5: of this stuff as well. And so then there's the

404
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 5: aspect of like it's half there and it's half not there,

405
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Speaker 5: Like I shouldn't mention that either, but you know, it's

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Speaker 5: important to remember that, like for years people would see grays,

407
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Speaker 5: people would ask like what kind of clothes they were wearing,

408
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Speaker 5: and people would be embarrassed to say, like, well, it

409
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 5: didn't look like they were wearing clothes, And so for

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Speaker 5: years in the literature that was something that was less

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Speaker 5: reported on because it just seems so wild that like

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Speaker 5: there would be some being and then that it wouldn't

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Speaker 5: be wearing clothes.

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Speaker 3: You know, Clarious, you have this encounter with something from

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Speaker 3: another world, whatever that world may be, and this is

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Speaker 3: your concern. We're going to have to take a quick break there, guys.

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Speaker 3: When we come back, we're going to talk more to

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Speaker 3: Jay and Kelly about some of the strange occurrences and

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Speaker 3: how they're more prevalent than we realize, and also how

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Speaker 3: these things parallel mainstream religion. Oftentimes you're listening to Beyond

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Speaker 3: Contact and the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast am Paranormal

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Speaker 3: podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking

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Speaker 3: with Jay King and Kelly Chase. We were talking about

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Speaker 3: how these strange occurrences happen to people, and this was

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Speaker 3: an interesting thing that I thought came through your series

426
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Speaker 3: for me, was that in general, we don't think societally

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Speaker 3: that these strange occurrences happen very often. In fact, I

428
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Speaker 3: think the average person on the street probably thinks that

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Speaker 3: they happen into a very select few, many of whom

430
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Speaker 3: are crazy. But when you talk to each individual, you

431
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 3: find it incredible how often nearly everyone has some type

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Speaker 3: of strange occurrence in their life, not necessarily a full

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Speaker 3: blown UFO alien abduction case, but a strange, unexplainable experience. Nonetheless,

434
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 3: stories of ghosts, as you mentioned, Jay, are cryptids, and

435
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 3: all of these things go back thousands of years.

436
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think that for us that was something that

437
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 6: we really wanted to get across. So I'm glad that

438
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 6: I'm glad that it did come across, because you know,

439
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 6: I've had such a strange experience with this myself. Jay

440
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 6: is somebody who's a lifelong experiencer, but I'm someone who

441
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 6: only came to this in the last few years and

442
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 6: started to really take it seriously, and even going through

443
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 6: my own process, it's wild to me that I saw

444
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 6: a UFO when I was thirteen years old, but then

445
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 6: I spent the rest of my life up until just

446
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 6: a few years ago when I started taking this seriously

447
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 6: thinking that UFOs weren't real.

448
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 4: How do you square those things?

449
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 6: And as you begin to sort of unpack all of

450
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 6: these things I think people have, whether it's synchronicities, it's

451
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 6: some sort of an encounter with or communication from a

452
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 6: dead loved one, you know, all of these things in

453
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 6: the course of our day to day lives. The walls

454
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 6: of our reality tend to be very solid, and yet

455
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 6: there are these kind of breakthrough moments, but they happen

456
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 6: so briefly. They usually happen around trauma or a bunch

457
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 6: of other things going on in your life. And I

458
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 6: think it's really easy to just sort of like skip

459
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 6: past that part and just be like, well, I don't

460
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 6: think about that too much, and you just assume that

461
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 6: you're wrong somehow and you carry on. But I think

462
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 6: that once people get more educated about the structure and

463
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 6: the content of these experiences, how they take place, what

464
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 6: it's like, how it impacts people that they start to

465
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 6: recognize in their own life. They're like, oh, something like

466
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 6: that did happen to me. I just didn't have a

467
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 6: way to like categorize it or explain it.

468
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 3: Agreed one hundred percent, you know, It's interesting also how

469
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 3: this phenomenon seems to parallel religions far more closely than again,

470
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: I think most people want to accept. There's a moment

471
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: in your piece where Jeffrey Kreipel makes an amazing comment

472
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: to me. I thought it was great where he says,

473
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: in the ancient world, when we hear someone say, oh,

474
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 3: they came down from the sky and they called it religion,

475
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 3: but when somebody says that exact same thing today they

476
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 3: call it a crazy person. Yeah.

477
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I mean Jeff Kreipel has made such an

478
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 5: amazing career and has really contributed to the field, contributed

479
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 5: not just to our field, not just to the paranormal,

480
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 5: not just to uthology, but to religious studies all together,

481
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 5: and even to just like the social sciences at large.

482
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 5: I mean, he's really respected as such a figure these

483
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 5: days within the social sciences community. You know, he chairs

484
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 5: the department at RICE, He's been the dean of humanities

485
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 5: down there in the past. You know, Jeff really takes

486
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 5: this stuff incredibly seriously and even thinks that this is

487
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 5: really the future of social sciences at large. You know,

488
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 5: whether it's anthropology, whether you're looking at religious study, theology,

489
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 5: you know psychology. There are so many aspects of the

490
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 5: soft sciences as they're sometimes called, that really could be

491
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 5: well informed by the history of anomalous phenomena. And it's

492
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 5: absolutely true. I'm so glad that we have Diana Pasalka

493
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 5: on cosmosis, so glad that we have Jeff Kreipel on cosmosis,

494
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 5: and Stephen Finley, doctor Stephen Finley, who contributes incredibly well

495
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 5: to cosmosis. People that really look at religious studies, because

496
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 5: if we're looking at something that impacts culture at the

497
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 5: level of myth and that it's passed around by anecdote

498
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 5: and it affects our belief system so much, that's exactly

499
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 5: what religious studies scholars do. We're not just like sitting

500
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 5: there and talking to a priest. We're talking about the

501
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 5: people that study the Catholic Church, that study these religions

502
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 5: and how they operate. There's a difference there, there's a

503
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 5: nuance there that people need to really understand. We're not

504
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 5: throwing these two things together. We're using the advantages of

505
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 5: these experts that look at belief systems incredibly important when

506
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 5: you're dealing with a phenomenon like this.

507
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: I felt even before I got into this topic years ago.

508
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 3: My whole life. I had a hard time squaring how

509
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 3: people that believe in this kind of a thing, UFOs

510
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 3: and whatnot were crazy, But people that believe these things

511
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 3: that happen in religion and all of those things that

512
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 3: are take magic is accepted. You know. I was immediately

513
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 3: reminded when I heard that quote by Kreipel of something

514
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 3: that Whitley talks about in Communion. Actually, when he compared

515
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 3: the stories from thousands of years ago, how there'll be

516
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: an account, and it was that the fairies came down

517
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 3: from the trees, and he described these beings with the

518
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: big eyes and these little guys. Then you turn the

519
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: page and it's like a modern day abduction story about

520
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: these beings came down from the sky. It very well,

521
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: maybe the exact same experience that's happening, but we're seeing

522
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: it through a different lens. We live in the space

523
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: age a thousand years ago that was way beyond the

524
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: way of thinking.

525
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

526
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 6: I think it's if we lose track of our history

527
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 6: that we end up losing a lot of the phenomenon.

528
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 6: When we deal with the unknown, we're kind of left

529
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 6: grasping for whatever conceptual tools or ideas or memes are

530
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 6: most available to us, and so inevitably these encounters with

531
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 6: things that are so far beyond our understanding end up

532
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 6: being wrapped in sort of the cultural zeitgeist of the day,

533
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 6: and it introduces a subjectivity into the experience. I think

534
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 6: that can make it really challenging for us to tackle

535
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 6: because we're comparing these things that are very similar but

536
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 6: that are different that change over time. As tough as

537
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 6: that is, I think that like coming to terms with like, Okay,

538
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 6: that's the reality of what we're dealing with here, So

539
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 6: how do we approach this? It's about not demanding that

540
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 6: the data conforms to our expectations of the kind of

541
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 6: data that we would like to work with, but instead

542
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 6: looking at the data as it exists and trying to

543
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 6: be innovative about how we're going to approach it in

544
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 6: a way that we can make progress.

545
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: You know, you guys also illustrate how anyone who's had

546
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 3: one of these experiences, or those like me who have

547
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: just trust the data from experiencers, can really have a

548
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: personal paradigm shift in their way of thinking. They often

549
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 3: can have a whole new worldview based on these experiences,

550
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: and often it goes well beyond just the UFO aspect

551
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: of this. People sometimes experience additional phenomenon like telepathic abilities, precognition, levitation,

552
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: other sigh related effects.

553
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 5: It's interesting, right, because there's a bit of a chicken

554
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 5: in the egg situation here. Did the initial experience kind

555
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 5: of break open somebody's head in such a way that

556
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 5: they became more perceptually aware of this range of these

557
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 5: kinds of edge states, these edges of perception, Yeah, as

558
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 5: a causal like that. And then there are other folks,

559
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 5: for example Gary Nolan, who's the head of the pathology

560
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 5: department at Stanford University and it's quite a prominent figure

561
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 5: in the field these days. He also puts forward that

562
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 5: there might be differences in the brains of people that

563
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 5: are having these experiences regardless of modality, like multi modality experiencers.

564
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 5: You know how some people their second toe is longer

565
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 5: than their first toe or earl or something like this.

566
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 5: And there's such a study even from the intelligence community,

567
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 5: but also now among researchers about these family lines. You

568
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 5: know that we find these family lines of experiencers that

569
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 5: can go back generations, like we show on cosmosis the

570
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 5: case of Courtney Lafal him. We see one of his

571
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 5: sons on the show, we see his grandmother. They're all experiencers,

572
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 5: and they're all multi modality experiencers. Courtney and his grandmother

573
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 5: they saw a UFO together when Courtney was a child,

574
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: and then that opened up a conversation in the family

575
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 5: where she was able to tell him that she and

576
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 5: other family members had seen UFOs in the past. With

577
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 5: that and other experiences, it really not just like opened

578
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: up the conversation among the family in a way that

579
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 5: could engender a sense of honesty and openness about all

580
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 5: these things, making people closer together, more intimate, but it

581
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 5: also kind of opened up Courtney's worldview. He felt allowed

582
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 5: to look at this stuff, and as he felt maybe

583
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 5: a loud to look at this stuff and was able

584
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 5: to kind of embrace it on that level. He found

585
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 5: this stuff, he found more things. He found situations of mediumship,

586
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 5: He found situations of precognition, culture, geist, activity, and so

587
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 5: much else.

588
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: You know, we also can't separate out consciousness from the

589
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: UFO phenomenon. In fact, aspects of the afterlife also seem

590
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: clearly related to the phenomenon some way.

591
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 6: Right absolutely, And I think we're only just coming to

592
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 6: terms with what that really means. You know, we definitely

593
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 6: have this sense that there's this connection. I think experiencers

594
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 6: in particular have a real experiential understanding that this has

595
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 6: something to do with consciousness and with the afterlife, you know,

596
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 6: all of these things that we're really not talking about

597
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 6: one phenomenon, but kind of a meta phenomenon that encompasses

598
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 6: all of these different, unknown and often ignored aspects of.

599
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 4: Human experience and just what it means to be alive.

600
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 6: You know, the science is finally starting to catch up

601
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 6: in terms of our understanding of consciousness and quantum mechanics

602
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 6: and the structure of the universe that are going to

603
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 6: not just allow us but force us to look at

604
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 6: our reality differently. And I think that in beginning to

605
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 6: understand that that more about the UFO phenomenon is going

606
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 6: to begin to make sense to us. And so like,

607
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 6: there could be a more exciting time, I think, to

608
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 6: be studying these things, because I think we're about to

609
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 6: make progress in a place where we've been stymied for

610
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 6: a while.

611
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: God I hope. So when we come back, we're going

612
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: to talk to Jay and Kelly Moore about the deeper

613
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: complexities of the UFO phenomenon that go well beyond just

614
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: a spacecraft flying in from another solar system. You're listening

615
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

616
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact

617
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: talking to and Kelly here. As j points out, many

618
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: of the current modalities we have on this topic all

619
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: have their flaws. We may be encountering something so much

620
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: more beyond the scales of what we can even currently grasp.

621
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, absolutely. There's a wonderful philosopher named James Madden

622
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 5: that we were able to bring onto the show. He's

623
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 5: done incredible work. He recently published a book called Unidentified

624
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 5: Flying hyper Object where he really kind of gets into

625
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 5: this idea and many other ideas. But one of these

626
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 5: ideas is that when we talk about UFOs, we often

627
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 5: focus on the unidentified part, and we often focus on

628
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 5: the flying part, but we don't look at the object part.

629
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 5: And according to him, like that may be an issue

630
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 5: because getting into the kind of like the philosophy of this,

631
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 5: like what is an object? Are we making assumptions about

632
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 5: what an object is? And especially with something like that

633
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 5: can appear as a nuts and bolts craft versus like

634
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 5: orb phenomena or something even more vaporous than that. You know,

635
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 5: maybe we have been making some overboard assumptions about what

636
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 5: we really term as an object or what kinds of

637
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 5: classes of objects we're looking at, And so with him,

638
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 5: he's talking about things like a hyper object is a

639
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 5: situation where there's an object that operates on such a

640
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 5: grand scale. And often this is something that we wouldn't

641
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 5: think of as an object, like, for example, a pizza

642
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 5: restaurant is an example that's using the show. You could

643
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 5: replace all the things in a pizza restaurant and it

644
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 5: would still be considered by the people in the neighborhood

645
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 5: as the same pizza restaurant. You know, the employees could

646
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 5: change the ovens, could change everything like that, but we

647
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 5: still think of it as the same pizza hut, whatever

648
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 5: you have there. If you go bigger than that, there's

649
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 5: the corporation level, or like there's the economy, and these

650
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 5: are things that are so big, These are concepts that

651
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 5: are so big we articulate them as a thing the economy,

652
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 5: but we can't really grasp Even the best economists they

653
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 5: can't understand at any given moment, what the heck the

654
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 5: economy is truly doing on every single layer at any

655
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 5: one particular time, and what he's suggesting that essentially, it's

656
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 5: possible that anomaloust phenomenon that UFOs et cetera, could be

657
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 5: operating on such a grand scale that it is functioning

658
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 5: akin to that, like the economy, a situation that we're

659
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 5: trying to wrap our heads around with these edge states,

660
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 5: something that may be absolutely impossible for our human minds

661
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 5: to completely wrap our arms around.

662
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: It's an interesting way of thinking, it really is. One

663
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: other takeaway that I had was that we do not

664
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: have to wait for the government to spoon feed us

665
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: these answers. But the phenomenon is everywhere if you look,

666
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: and we should just be more open about sharing our

667
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: strange experiences with one another, not afraid to talk about them,

668
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 3: then perhaps would be able to get closer to the answers.

669
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: Hopefully this series will provoke a dialogue. Was that part

670
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 3: of your mission?

671
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 6: Yes, from the very beginning, I think of all the

672
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 6: things that we wanted to accompsh that that I think

673
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 6: was first.

674
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 4: And foremost in our minds.

675
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 6: Jay and I really believe in this sort of punk rock,

676
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 6: d Ui d u I dy approach to let's kelly,

677
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 6: let's keep it eye of Brodian flip. No, listen, the

678
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 6: intelligence community, they're not even necessarily doing something bad or nefarious.

679
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 6: Like we've set up these institutions to protect us in

680
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 6: certain ways. Their job isn't to like reveal the secrets

681
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 6: of the universe to us. Their job is to keep

682
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 6: us safe and mitigate risk, figure out what those risks

683
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 6: are before we do, and never tell us about it

684
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 6: so we can all go about having our lives. Which

685
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 6: isn't to say that they haven't done bad things also,

686
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 6: but I mean, I think the real point is that,

687
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 6: like we're asking for something from the intelligence apparatus that's

688
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 6: like it's fundamentally.

689
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 4: Not set up to do.

690
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 6: In fact, it's set up to do the opposite of that.

691
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 6: It seems like the whole conversation has gotten caught in

692
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 6: the jaws of this disclosure narrative that's being run, for

693
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 6: better or for worse by the intelligence community.

694
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 4: You know, to us, it seems.

695
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 6: Like you should just you can just go around like

696
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 6: you just literally don't have to let that be the

697
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 6: center of the conversation. But what we're talking about is

698
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 6: understanding a non human intelligence or potentially many of them

699
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 6: in our interaction.

700
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 4: With those things.

701
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 6: And the thing that we're supposed to believe about this

702
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 6: within the disclosure narrative is that, like, the best data

703
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 6: that we can have is data that's given us to

704
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 6: us by other people that they can either confirm nor

705
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 6: deny about the vehicles that these things ride around in.

706
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 6: And it's like, but why wouldn't we just go talk

707
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 6: to the people who've interacted with these things anything?

708
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: If you talk about refrigerator repair, go talk to the

709
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: guy who repairs refrigerators. Why you're waiting for some guy

710
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: who won't tell you about refrigerators and says he doesn't

711
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: know anything. Why do we wait for them? It's a

712
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: great analogy, Kelly, It really is. I think some people

713
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: in this community, we do entertain what the experiences have

714
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: to say, and we do take them at their word,

715
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: and we are open to their things. But I think

716
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 3: in general, most of the people in the world, certainly

717
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: in our country, aren't necessarily as in in this topic,

718
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: do you know. I think that's part of it. You know.

719
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 3: I felt this piece was so great, and I thought

720
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: Whitley was just fantastic in it. It's kind of come

721
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: full circle for him because this is gaining some strength

722
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: and some momentum and he should get his day.

723
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 5: You know, Whitley is such a legend. I mean, for

724
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 5: so many different reasons. Communion of course, was such an

725
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 5: early and important seminal work in the field. It really

726
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 5: busted with him and Bud Hopkins work at the outset

727
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 5: between that and like Missing Time and Intruders, They really

728
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 5: just the doors open on this topic as far as

729
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 5: the abduction phenomenon, as far as like interaction and things

730
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 5: like that. You know, Whitley was such a trailblazer, and

731
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 5: he continues to be a trailblazer. I mean, his recent

732
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 5: book Them absolutely incredible in terms of looking at the

733
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 5: high strangeness effects and the kind of inconvenient details that

734
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 5: we're really talking about on the show. Them was a huge,

735
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 5: huge inspiration to both Kelly and I in working on

736
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 5: the kind of like groundwork that we laid for this show.

737
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 5: Has a new book, The Fourth Mind, that really gets

738
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 5: into the grays, and I'm really looking forward to the

739
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 5: conversation around that later this year. It's going to be

740
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 5: absolutely wonderful to hear from him. That way. But yeah,

741
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 5: I mean he deserves every accolade. He deserves to have

742
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 5: this resurgence, and it's so absolutely wonderful to see, you.

743
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: Know, Jay, I remember, I mean this is what got me.

744
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 3: People always ask, and it was Communion that first got

745
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: me interested in This was that specific book, and I

746
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: do remember even then, right when it came out whatever

747
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 3: it was eighty five, mid eighties, My spidy sense was

748
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 3: tingling when I read on the back, how you know

749
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: he's a science fiction writer, and I thought, well, yeah,

750
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: you know, he could have just made this whole thing up.

751
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: What I love is here we are, forty years later.

752
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 3: This guy not only has he not retracted his story

753
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: or anything, he has stayed in this community. He has

754
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: stuck to everything, and he is still to me at

755
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: the forefront. He makes very poignant comments that are very

756
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 3: interesting and make me reflect on these possibilities. And I

757
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 3: think he's as important now as he was when he

758
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 3: came out with Communion, and that's to me. That kind

759
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 3: of solidifies him more. And you guys look more to

760
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 3: Contact in the Desert.

761
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 6: Yes, it's honestly my favorite event. We had so much

762
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 6: fun last year. It was absolutely a blast. I love

763
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 6: the location, the resort where it's held, because it's just

764
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 6: it's like exactly big enough and exactly small enough that

765
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 6: you know you can get away. But also it's so

766
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 6: easy to kind of get in the mix with all

767
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 6: the speakers and the attendees, and I think like it's

768
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 6: just the most fun.

769
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 4: I really love it.

770
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 3: Jay was telling me before before you came on, Kelly,

771
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 3: that you're going to do a juggling act for us

772
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 3: this year. Is that true?

773
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 6: Oh?

774
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 5: Yeah good. I feel like for a lot of the speakers,

775
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 5: especially when they do hosting duties or other things like that,

776
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 5: I mean, and for yourself, Ron, I mean Ron Captain

777
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 5: Ron is doing a juggling act that whole long weekend basically,

778
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 5: you know, and the des.

779
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 3: I have seen that weekend for me. Thanks a lot, guys.

780
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you guys coming on. It was a

781
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: lot of fun talking about this. I could do it

782
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: for hours. I really recommend everyone out there watch Cosmosis,

783
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: UFOs and a New Reality and it really gives a

784
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: new honest approach to the way we perhaps should be

785
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 3: thinking about UFOs and the phenomenon and not just face

786
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: value like we've been over the years. It's available on

787
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 3: Apple TV and on Prime. You can find more about

788
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: Jay and Kelly at on tocolips dot com, O N

789
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: T O C A L Y P s E dot com. Now,

790
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: thanks for listening to be on Contact. We'll be back

791
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 3: next week with an all new episode. You can follow

792
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 3: me Captain Ron on Twitter and Instagram at c I

793
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out

794
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: Contact indeedeesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational as

795
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 3: we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and

796
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

797
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost

798
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: Ay and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out

799
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going

800
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: to iHeartRadio dot com