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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the US economy has slowed to

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Speaker 1: one point four GDP growth in Q four twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. Sisters

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Speaker 1: in Law's own Joys Vans stops by to talk about

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Speaker 1: SCOTUS striking down Trump's tariff policy, and then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to Epstein survivor Maria Farmer about her experiences with Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Ebstein and Les Wexner.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: MI the Republicans are holding on to their majority by

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Speaker 3: a thread. There's Tony Gonzalez we talked about in the

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Speaker 3: last episode, who if he leaves, will leave Mike Johnson

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Speaker 3: in a very bad spot in Congress. And it now

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Speaker 3: appears from this latest video that Mitch McConnell may not

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Speaker 3: be all the way there. Are you ready to watch this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's want his video. I'm sure, okay, centerator for

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Speaker 2: election three short years?

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I had a hard time here, that's okay.

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on running for.

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Speaker 2: Reelection twenty What am I thoughts about.

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Speaker 3: What running for re election in twentelve?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Did you hear the question senator running for reelection in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty six? Yeah, all right, I'm sorry you all

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Speaker 4: were going to need a minute, Manny.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. We're not playing that to be cruel.

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Speaker 1: Getting old is something we're all going to have to

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Speaker 1: deal with if we're lucky you Yeah, better.

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Speaker 2: Than the alternative.

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Speaker 1: We're playing that because we have a real problem in

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Speaker 1: this country at this moment, and we need age limits

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Speaker 1: on electeds. And that is what we're trying to get

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Speaker 1: here left right time to have some age limits.

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Speaker 2: People just don't want to leave office.

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Speaker 1: Power is hard to give up, and I get it, man,

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Speaker 1: But we're just seeing this again and again and again.

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Speaker 1: We really need.

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Speaker 2: Our politicians to have age limits.

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Speaker 3: Get's interesting because I've seen some people saying, oh, they're

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Speaker 3: worried Bashir will be able to replace him with somebody,

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Speaker 3: but the eight Senate actually put limitations on Basher's ability

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 1: That because why because they're worried that a Democrat would

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Speaker 1: get that job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like what we're on his third senior

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Speaker 3: moment here that we've seen like where he just disconnects yeah.

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Speaker 1: And this is not to say that we don't understand

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Speaker 1: the sensitivity of getting older or that we don't appreciate

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Speaker 1: how hard that is. It's more just that we see

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Speaker 1: that this is a real problem that we keep seeing

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Speaker 1: again and again and again, and that there's only one

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Speaker 1: way that we're going to get through this, and that's

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Speaker 1: to have tournaments on candidates.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So Harriet's on CNN was talking about a concept

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Speaker 3: that many people discuss, which is that you know, Trump

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Speaker 3: will never go below this four of a certain approval,

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Speaker 3: and he's saying, I don't know, man, these poles are

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Speaker 3: looking so bad. The four may be lower than we thought.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Harry Enton is a polster and he has been

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Speaker 1: covered you know, we've all been covering this forever and

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Speaker 1: ever until we die. But this is two points lower

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Speaker 1: across a number of posters, and he is now in

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Speaker 1: worse shape than at any point in his first term

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Speaker 1: or where Biden was ever. So it's basically he's underwater.

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Speaker 1: Like twenty points is low according to Yahoo, nineteen points

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Speaker 1: according to NBC is twenty. I mean, he's really underwater.

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Speaker 1: And it's worth realizing that, like when he came in

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Speaker 1: the second time, he actually was more popular. He had

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Speaker 1: won the popular vote. He had really a lot of

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Speaker 1: opportunities to connect with voters. He had billionaires talking about

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Speaker 1: how grat he was. You know, he had the closest

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Speaker 1: thing he's ever had to a mandate, and he absolutely

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Speaker 1: squandered it, like you can't fucking believe. And so we

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Speaker 1: have these pulling low numbers that are pretty spectacular.

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Speaker 3: And we're seeing now is that he's sending these insane

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Speaker 3: truth posts about fixing the vote because he sees how

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Speaker 3: unpopular is. We have one here that is just insane

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Speaker 3: about voter ID.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's what's happening. Trump and Republicans see the polls.

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Speaker 1: They know that they're in big trouble. They see it happening,

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Speaker 1: and so they really really really want to mess with

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Speaker 1: our voting and they want to pass this Save Act.

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Speaker 1: They can't pass the Save Act unless they get rid

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Speaker 1: of the filibuster. If they get rid of the philibuster,

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Speaker 1: that means that everything changes. That legislation is much easier

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Speaker 1: to pass. But it's also the Save Act is really bad.

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Speaker 1: It would federalize elections. I mean, this is why he's

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Speaker 1: so hot on it. I'm going to read a little

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Speaker 1: bit of this truth social post because it has a

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Speaker 1: lot of capitalization, and like, it's important to hear Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's own words sometimes because you have to know how

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Speaker 1: unhinged a lot of this stuff is. We cannot let

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Speaker 1: the Democrats get away with no voter ID all caps

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Speaker 1: any longer. These are horrible, disingenuous cheaters all caps. They

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Speaker 1: have all sorts of reasons why it shouldn't be passed,

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Speaker 1: and they boldly laugh in the back rooms after their

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Speaker 1: ridiculous presentations. If it weren't such a serious matter, it

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Speaker 1: would be considered a total joke. No voter ID is

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Speaker 1: even crazier and more ridiculous than men playing in women's sports. Right,

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Speaker 1: these are the three things he thinks he wins on

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Speaker 1: men playing in women's sports, open borders, or transgender for everyone. Okay,

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Speaker 1: is clearly like these are his three greatest hits.

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Speaker 3: My favorite right that we should add to the constitution transgender.

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Speaker 1: For transgender for everyone. Republicans must put this at the

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Speaker 1: top of every speech. It is a can't miss for

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Speaker 1: reelection in the midterms. Huh And beyond explanation point, even

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Speaker 1: Democratic voters agree eighty five percent that there should be

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Speaker 1: voter ID, and there are, by the way, a lot

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Speaker 1: of states where there is voter ID. It's only the

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Speaker 1: political quote unquote leaders, crooked losers like Schumer and Jeffries.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if only they were as bad as

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Speaker 1: Trump says they are in this truth that have no shame,

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Speaker 1: explain why it's racist, and every other thing they can

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Speaker 1: think of. This is an issue that must be fought,

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Speaker 1: and be fought now, all caps explanation point. So I

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Speaker 1: always feel like with Trump it's important to just look

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Speaker 1: at what he says, even if he's a liar. I

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Speaker 1: just want to keep going. I will present them shortly

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Speaker 1: in the form of an executive order. I hope the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court realizes as they painstakingly review the very simple

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Speaker 1: topic of country saving tariffs. Important right, because he was

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Speaker 1: really anxious about this tariff decision and they ruled against him.

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Speaker 1: Those same tariffs have been used by other countries against

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Speaker 1: US to drain it of its treasury and security for

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Speaker 1: many years.

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Speaker 2: Again not true at all.

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Speaker 1: So pack the courts with twenty one Supreme Court justices

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Speaker 1: their dream explanation points which they will submit. Look, he's anxious,

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Speaker 1: he's worried, he sees the polls here we are.

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Speaker 3: Yep, So eleven million visitors seem to have not come

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Speaker 3: here since Trump was elected, which is hitting the economy

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Speaker 3: very bad. We have this new report where the Walt

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Speaker 3: Disney Company is quite a posse about this, and I

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Speaker 3: hear it all the time from people at restaurants and

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Speaker 3: bars I go to in New York that they just

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Speaker 3: don't see the Europeans here the way they used to,

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Speaker 3: and that was keeping them in business.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine why people would not want to come

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Speaker 1: to a country where our police force has murdered two

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Speaker 1: American citizens.

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Speaker 2: I don't know our masked police force.

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Speaker 1: And where we see endless stories of ice locking up

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Speaker 1: kids and deporting the wrong people. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: why you wouldn't want to come here. Luckily, we have

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Speaker 1: FIFA World Cup coming and Donald Trumps won the FIFA

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Speaker 1: Soccer Peace Prize, so that should get Taurus here.

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Speaker 3: A coveted prize.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you, Yes, FIFA World Cup the best.

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Speaker 3: So Thomas Massey, who I really every time we have

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Speaker 3: to quote him, I can't believe we're quoting a good

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Speaker 3: way these days. He says, the Trump UFO talk is

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Speaker 3: the ultimate weapon of mass distraction from the Epstein files.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's right. He's right, He's right, he's right. Look,

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Speaker 1: Massy is so interesting and this moment is so strange

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Speaker 1: because he is a libertarian and like, well, we don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily agree with everything he says. It's really interesting. He

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Speaker 1: and Rocanna have tried to pass a War Powers Act.

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Speaker 1: Trump has amassed all of these ships by the Gulf.

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Speaker 1: This is like a real moment. We're seeing like libertarian

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Speaker 1: values like the Ran Pauls and the Thomas Massey's and

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Speaker 1: this sort of like, you know, democratic values aligned. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about UFOs because Trump was on the

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Speaker 1: airplane coming home from Georgia where he was on an

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Speaker 1: affordability tour, though you wouldn't know it because you almost

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Speaker 1: spent no time talking about affordability. And you know, he's

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Speaker 1: moved as many aircrafts into the Middle East as has

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Speaker 1: been ever since two thousand and three.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's wild.

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Speaker 1: He's basically wants to bomb irand his administration has offered

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Speaker 1: like three or four different reasons for why, which I

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Speaker 1: think what you know about Trump world is when they're lying,

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Speaker 1: which is a lot of the time, they offer multiple

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Speaker 1: explanations so they said that they wanted because the protesters,

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Speaker 1: they wanted to you know, because Iran killed all these protesters, right,

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Speaker 1: they said it's because of the nuclear program that we

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Speaker 1: know all the nukes are buried, because of the last

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Speaker 1: saying it's because they want to destabilize the region and terrorism.

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Speaker 1: So there's like a million different answers. So that's how

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Speaker 1: we know they're lying. But the point here is last night,

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Speaker 1: on the flight home from Georgia, he is talking to

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Speaker 1: a journalist. A journalist says, well, or maybe this was

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Speaker 1: on the way there, he's saying. A journalist says, well,

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Speaker 1: Obama says that there are aliens, and he said, well

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Speaker 1: that was not Obama. You know, you could see in

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Speaker 1: his head the wheels turning. He said something like that's

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Speaker 1: classified information. Is he releasing classifiedamin? You know, I think

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Speaker 1: you're like, can I arrest Obama?

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Speaker 3: And he's like, good, damn it. Wait, I was the

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Speaker 3: one who said that I could declassify things with my brain.

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Speaker 3: God damnit. He was president before me, right, And in.

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Speaker 1: His head you can see him thinking like, oh, the

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Speaker 1: people are interested in aliens. Oh that is a good one.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't tie to Ebstein. There you go. That's how

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Speaker 2: we got here.

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Speaker 1: Joyce Fans is the author of the substack Civil Discourse,

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Speaker 1: the co host of the podcast Sisters in Law, and

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Speaker 1: the author of Giving Up is Unforgivable, a Manual for

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Speaker 1: keeping a Democracy. Joyce Fans, Hey, how are you good?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: Okay, we are at a moment where the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: has actually told Trump no. I think it's happened like

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Speaker 1: and you know, like the number of times as I

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Speaker 1: have fingers.

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Speaker 5: On one hand, I think you have too many fingers

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Speaker 5: for this court, but any hind.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, exactly too many fingers. Talk about this Scotis

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Speaker 1: decision on tars.

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Speaker 5: Yes, you make a really interesting point that this is

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Speaker 5: about the Court telling Trump no. And first, let me

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Speaker 5: tell you that in the two hours since the decision

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Speaker 5: came out, I have not read all one hundred and

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Speaker 5: seventy pages with great care. So I'm going to speak

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Speaker 5: for it makes two of us. Yeah, we'll be doing

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Speaker 5: that this weekend. It's going to be a fun weekend

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Speaker 5: at shay Vance. I think I have a good bottle

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Speaker 5: of champagne to read with. But look, let me just

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Speaker 5: say this about the context. You know, the theme of

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Speaker 5: this presidency has been Donald Trump's effort to seize more power. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and he's not seizing it in a vacuum. He's seizing

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Speaker 5: it from Congress in large part. And at the same

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Speaker 5: time he's trying to tell the Supreme Court it doesn't

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Speaker 5: have the ability to review his decisions. It's not just

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Speaker 5: in this case. That has been a theme. For instance,

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Speaker 5: where he tried to use the Alien Enemies APT to

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Speaker 5: do things with deportation that no president has ever done,

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Speaker 5: and he tried to do it again with the National Guard,

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Speaker 5: federalizing them. In both of those cases, he found statutes

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Speaker 5: that gave presidents unusual enhanced powers in emergency situations, and

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Speaker 5: then he claimed that there was an emergency, said the

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court couldn't review his decision and proceeded. And so

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Speaker 5: this is actually the third time that we've seen the

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court tell Trump know. But what's important about this case.

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Speaker 5: The tariff's case was fully briefed, fully argued, we have

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Speaker 5: this long decision that lays out the court's reasoning. And

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Speaker 5: in the case of both deportations and the National Guard,

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court ruled on early preliminary motions in those

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Speaker 5: cases off of the shadow docket and they didn't really

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Speaker 5: lay out their reasoning, so it makes it important that

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Speaker 5: they've done it. Here, can I just say that, I mean,

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court is not the hero of the moment, right,

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Speaker 5: certainly a six y three decision and should have been

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Speaker 5: nine zero because I'm sorry, I'm wound up about it,

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Speaker 5: but I'll just say it should have been nine oh.

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Speaker 5: It's not a hard case. This is not about the

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Speaker 5: president's power. You know, with Tariff's writ large Congress has

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Speaker 5: the tariff's power. They can loan it to the president.

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Speaker 5: They do specifically in certain statutes with limitations on how

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Speaker 5: long he can impose it for what percentage it can be. Here,

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Speaker 5: Trump took this statute AEPA that does not have the

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Speaker 5: word tariffs in it. He used it to impose, you know,

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Speaker 5: for all time tariffs as high as he wanted it to.

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Speaker 5: And it should have been nine oh. The textualists on

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court should have said the Constitution, you know,

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Speaker 5: the Statute AEPA, none of that says Trump has this power.

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Speaker 5: So no, mister President. And the fact that three justices

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Speaker 5: were still willing to shill for the President to some

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Speaker 5: extent I think is just.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that the three justices not surprising. Fox's

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Speaker 1: surprising at Clarence Thomas, Samuel and Leito and Justice kegstand Kavanaugh.

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Speaker 5: But first, but that one is a little bit surprising.

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Speaker 5: Let me say, I think people assumed it might be

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Speaker 5: gor such but he had written, you know, as recently

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Speaker 5: his less term about the importance of textualism, so maybe

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Speaker 5: a little less surprising. What's interesting here though, in what

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Speaker 5: I haven't looked at yet. We've got concurrences from everybody,

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Speaker 5: in the sense from everybody, and it'll take some time

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Speaker 5: to distill what the actual holding is that had six

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Speaker 5: votes to back it.

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Speaker 1: But it is important to realize, like this is all

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Speaker 1: under the guise of the unitary executive theory, which is

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Speaker 1: a theory that the president is a king and the

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Speaker 1: Congress is a bunch of schmocks who do whatever he wants.

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Speaker 5: Basically, I think that's how we should understand this as

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Speaker 5: ab And you know, something I wrote about a lot

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Speaker 5: in my book and that I've talked about a lot

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Speaker 5: is my belief that at some point the Supreme Court

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Speaker 5: would tell Trump no, not because of legal principles, but

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Speaker 5: because they didn't want to become irrelevant. In other words,

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Speaker 5: if the Court keeps letting the president do whatever he

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Speaker 5: wants and erodes judicial review, then there's no rule for

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Speaker 5: a Supreme Court. And I think that we should understand

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Speaker 5: this decision in some ways as the court both telling

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Speaker 5: the President no, but maybe more importantly saying yes to

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Speaker 5: their own ability to remain relevant.

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Speaker 1: It is also important to realize so this case was

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Speaker 1: not teed up by some woke squad. This was teed

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Speaker 1: up by Leonard Leo and the surviving Koch brother Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Pretty hard to think of two people with more skin

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Speaker 1: in the game when it comes to federalist society or

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Speaker 1: the court, the making of the court itself.

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Speaker 5: You know, this case a decision between you know, MAGA,

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Speaker 5: which only got three votes and the Koch brothers who

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Speaker 5: got six.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, one of my friends was sending

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Speaker 5: me market graphics just as we were starting out. But

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Speaker 5: it looks like the market is taking this decision as

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Speaker 5: a good sign.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it means that Donald Trump can't kill our

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Speaker 1: economy for no reason.

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Speaker 5: But according to Pam Bondi, that means everything's good.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, but speak you have Wench. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the tariff decision is a big one a question also,

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Speaker 1: how you undo these tariffs now, because remember this administration

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Speaker 1: is not so big on following the law.

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Speaker 5: You know, there had been a lot of thinking that

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Speaker 5: the court would reverse and would send this back to

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Speaker 5: the lower courts, which it did, but would also you know,

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Speaker 5: Neil kat y'all, who would argued the case successfully, had

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Speaker 5: said an oral argument, well, maybe you can do that

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Speaker 5: without undoing past tariffs. And again I haven't read carefully yet,

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Speaker 5: but my quick read suggests that the court didn't do

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Speaker 5: that and that the remedy may be up to the

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Speaker 5: district court, which is which is great. Well maybe, I mean,

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Speaker 5: the lower court's not going to be thrilled about figuring

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Speaker 5: that out, because unwinding the tariffs will be difficult and complicated.

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Speaker 5: The administration, to your point, Molly has argued that doing this,

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Speaker 5: you know, will put us into bankruptcy. I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: not true, but that's sort of the position that they're taking.

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Speaker 5: But it seemed to me that Neil's position in oral argument,

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Speaker 5: although I thought it was it was a smart thing

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Speaker 5: to give the court that out, to say that you

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Speaker 5: can sidestep all the difficulty of unwinding previously collected tariffs

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Speaker 5: you know, if the tariffs are illegal, then they were

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Speaker 5: improperly collected and they have to be restored. I want

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Speaker 5: to know, does this mean, you know, I'm a knitter.

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Speaker 5: When I buy my knitting yarn from Europe, now I'm

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Speaker 5: paying horrible tariffs on it. I want to know, do

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Speaker 5: I get that money back? I don't have clarity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want my money back too. It's a really

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Speaker 1: good question. And it's important to see this case as

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Speaker 1: what it is, to be clear eyed that this is

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Speaker 1: not a victory for democracy as so as much as

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Speaker 1: it is a victory for preexisting financial system.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to undersell this decision. If

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court had not pumped the brakes on the

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Speaker 5: Trump presidency here, it would have been a devastating moment.

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Speaker 5: So I mean good to see that at the margins

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Speaker 5: the court will stand for the rule of law. So

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Speaker 5: it's good that the Court pumped the breaks in this instance.

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Speaker 5: And this is a very important decision. It may frankly

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Speaker 5: be the most important one since the criminal immunity decision,

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Speaker 5: where the Court gave Trump so much power, such an

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Speaker 5: excess of freedom from the possibility of criminal prosecution. And

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Speaker 5: here they're saying to the President, no, you can't feal

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Speaker 5: Congress's power, and you can't tell us that we don't

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Speaker 5: have the power of judicial review. In other words, in

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Speaker 5: many ways, it restores or is the balance of power

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Speaker 5: among the three branches. The reason I'm not willing to

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Speaker 5: be super enthusiastic about the Court is I know what

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Speaker 5: comes next, and that's Klay, the jerrymandering case, which has

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Speaker 5: the potential for the Court to lock in Republican majorities

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Speaker 5: in the House of Representatives for a generation depending on

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Speaker 5: how that decision comes out. There are other voting rights cases,

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Speaker 5: and you know, as the administration is teeing up the

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Speaker 5: Save Act and getting ready to pass it, the consequences

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Speaker 5: of those cases could be devastating for democracy.

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Speaker 2: So we'll have to see right now.

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Speaker 1: That said, they cannot pass the Save Act unless they

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Speaker 1: undue the filibuster, which again they may try to. But

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Speaker 1: they don't have sixty votes for the Save Act in

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Speaker 1: the Senate.

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Speaker 5: I think that's right. You know they're gaining votes. Are

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Speaker 5: they going to get Democratic votes? I think no, they're

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Speaker 5: not going to get. But it's disturbing that they're over

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Speaker 5: fifty on the Republican side right, No, they're.

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Speaker 1: Fucking partisan hacks. And also it's yes, it's disturbing. And

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Speaker 1: the voting rights, what's coming down with the voting rights

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Speaker 1: could be crazy. I mean they could just get rid

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Speaker 1: of every I mean, the South could be.

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Speaker 2: All Republican congress people.

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Speaker 1: I mean they could just rid and you know, they

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Speaker 1: could gain five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten seats.

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Speaker 5: But what's going to be nineteen? I mean, I think

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Speaker 5: it's worth pointing out that the Georgia think tank that

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Speaker 5: Stacy Abrams started has done an analysis of the Dawn

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Speaker 5: I think just as nine nineteen vulnerable districts.

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Speaker 1: That's very sobering. Now let's talk about Epstein. We've got

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Speaker 1: these documents. Pam Bondi says it's over. Can Pambondy do that?

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Speaker 1: We only have half the documents we have the UK.

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Speaker 1: Andrew has been arrested. We have the rest of the

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Speaker 1: Epstein files. People in the US are in the Trump cabinet.

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Speaker 1: Basically we have Lutnick. We have I mean, every time

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Speaker 1: you watching the Ministry of Peace or whatever, that Ministry

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Speaker 1: of War peace Ponzi scheme that Trump was doing yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and we had Tony Blair in the Epstein files. We

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Speaker 1: had Mark Rowan in the Epstein files, like everyone around

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Speaker 1: Trump is in those files. Can Pam Bondi say it's

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Speaker 1: over and done and talk us through what you think

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Speaker 1: the legal remedies here are.

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Speaker 5: So, Look, Pambondi is the Attorney General of the United States,

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Speaker 5: and if she wants to say it's over, she can

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Speaker 5: do that. It's clear that the Justice Department is not

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Speaker 5: contemplating prosecution of anyone who is not a Democrat at

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Speaker 5: this point. That was the President's guidance to his attorney general.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think the real question is this, Molly,

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Speaker 5: what are we going to do about it?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 5: Congress has already shown it's vulnerable to strong American public

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Speaker 5: opinion on this topic, and I think we need to

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Speaker 5: be fierce and unrelenting and demand answers. If Bill Clint

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Speaker 5: can testify under oath in Congress, there is no reason

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Speaker 5: that Donald Trump cannot. And I think that's frankly, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's hard because there's a new issue every day, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: And it seems to me if I was in charge

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Speaker 5: of leading public opinion and trying to get the public

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Speaker 5: to influence Congress, it would be that simple point. If

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Speaker 5: Bill Clinton can testify under oath, so can Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when we look at these, so we had yesterday,

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Speaker 1: we had Las Waxar did a four hour deposition his.

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Speaker 5: House, right, Congress traveled to him, which is such an

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Speaker 5: irony because Bill and Hillary Clinton will be on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 1: Right, But this is obviously partisan hackro here. But the

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Speaker 1: head of oversight is a guy called James Comber. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the ranking is Robert Garcia. Now, I think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that we are seeing them do anything because if Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump had his way, there would be nothing coming out

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Speaker 1: of this. And when they reviewed less, he said, I

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Speaker 1: met Jeffrey Epstein a number of times with Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder what do you think's going on there

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Speaker 1: with James Comer, because there's no world in which James

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Speaker 1: Comer is just committed to the truth.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So you know, I mean, Wexner is obviously getting

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Speaker 5: up in years. During his deposition in one of the cases,

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Speaker 5: there's reporting that his lawyer leaned over and used profanity

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Speaker 5: to say, if you answer any further questions with more

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Speaker 5: than five words, I'm going to kill you. Yeah, And

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Speaker 5: so you know that's the problem. What are people going

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Speaker 5: to say? You know, the former Prince Andrew, what might

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Speaker 5: he try to say to save his own soul and

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Speaker 5: justify what he did?

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Speaker 2: What might you know?

436
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 5: Maybe a Kathy Rumler, what might she know and what

437
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 5: might she say? There's inherent risk to everyone who engaged

438
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 5: in misconduct right now, as you know. I mean, I've

439
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 5: seen this so many times as a prosecutor. Right when

440
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 5: the gig up, everybody who's on the sinking ship tries

441
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 5: to save themselves, and sometimes the best way you can

442
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 5: do that is to make somebody else the person who's

443
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,479
Speaker 5: going to fall off the boat next. So to your point,

444
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 5: Comer obviously is not interested in eliciting the truth. But look,

445
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 5: something that we have forgotten as an American people during

446
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 5: Donald Trump's administrations is that the power in democracy belongs

447
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 5: to us are elected officials. Donald Trump made primary them,

448
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 5: but he doesn't determine if they get re elected.

449
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: We do.

450
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 5: And that's why we saw the Epstein Files Transparency Act pass.

451
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 5: That's why there's even this modicum of Congressional oversight hearings

452
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 5: taking place. And so I think that this is, you know,

453
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 5: modestly my suggestion, a moment where Americans need to speak

454
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 5: to their elected officials. My senators are Tommy Tubervill and

455
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 5: Katie Britt. They don't listen to me a whole lot

456
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 5: when I talk to them, But you know, you can

457
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 5: be damn sure be writing and calling both of their

458
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 5: offices saying we need to get to the bottom of this.

459
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 5: Because girls, girls were raped, girls were trafficked, prosecutions didn't happen.

460
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 5: There's a lot of blame to be shared for that.

461
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 5: In this moment, we can at least provide some form

462
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 5: of justice to the survivors by exposing the truth. And

463
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 5: that's your obligation as my elected official.

464
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: So I wonder if we could talk about this for

465
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: a minute, because I have now spent a lot of

466
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: time talking to electeds about this about like what the

467
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: legal remedy here is yea, And they say, you know,

468
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: there's like no chain of the chain of custody on

469
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: the videos, on a lot of the staff is all

470
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: fucked up because this FBI messed it all up, basically,

471
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of tips that weren't followed that

472
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: you know, sheets and cheats of things that weren't not followed.

473
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: But you do have more than a thousand victims and

474
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: they have put together a list of two hundred and

475
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: fifty people that Thomas Massey has in his office. Do

476
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: these women have any chance for criminal charges? And if not,

477
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: do they have chance for civil There are a lot

478
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: of complications here, right. For one thing, some of these

479
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: now women were young girls when this happened. And whether

480
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: they have the ability to identify the powerful men who

481
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: were there and who abused them, we don't know, right,

482
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: I mean, these men are famous now, back then, maybe

483
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: they weren't, and maybe these identifications can't be made in court.

484
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: So there's all these technical legal issues you reference the

485
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: chain of custody.

486
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 5: But look, these women I think are increasingly angry. They

487
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 5: are willing to testify whether some brave prosecutor will try

488
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 5: to make a criminal case because in many states there's

489
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 5: no statute of limitations for rape and other child sex trafficking,

490
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 5: right yeah, well, and in the federal system, right. And

491
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 5: so what I would say to anybody who's involved in

492
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 5: the Epstein case is that this is their moment to

493
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 5: come forward and come clean and do the right thing,

494
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 5: because in three years, god willing, there will be a

495
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 5: new attorney General on Pennsylvania Avenue, and that I hope

496
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 5: will be someone who will be committed to delivering justice

497
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 5: even if it has been severely delayed. You know, civil

498
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 5: cases will suffer from the same sorts of legal hoops

499
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 5: that will have to be jumped through identifying people responsible,

500
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 5: chain of custody on evidence. Civil cases are very slow. Frankly,

501
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 5: I think, at least for starters. The most important thing

502
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 5: for survivors is having the truth come out, because they've

503
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 5: been told for years that they were lying, that they

504
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 5: were making it up, that they were prostitutes. They need

505
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 5: to be publicly vindicated, and then we can talk about

506
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 5: criminal and civil remedies.

507
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about this idea that there

508
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: are things people can do. You wrote this book about

509
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,479
Speaker 1: how important it is not to give up, and I

510
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 1: want you to talk about this quiet message of the

511
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: importance of citizens, because the reality is we would not

512
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: have had any of this Epstein stuff, not any of it,

513
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: had it not been for this sort of dogged work

514
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: of Julie K. Brown, going back to a story that

515
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: was supposedly dead, and the work of Rocanna and Thomas Massey.

516
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: So talk us through what you think citizens can do today.

517
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, the most important myth of

518
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 5: the Trump era is that we are powerless, that you

519
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: are powerless, that there's nothing you can do, so you

520
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 5: should just give up and siticide. And obviously, if there's

521
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 5: a silver lining to everything with the Epstein files, it's

522
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 5: that we are powerful. And so look, if you know

523
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 5: you as an individual, are doing what you can do

524
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 5: that might be con tacting your elected officials, and if

525
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 5: you are getting together with groups, maybe you're joining with

526
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 5: your local Indivisible group and planning to participate in the

527
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 5: No King's rally on the twenty eighth, And if you

528
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 5: are working to educate other people in your community, because

529
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: you know your friends and your neighbors, especially the ones

530
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 5: who lean MAGA, they're not going to listen to Malijan

531
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 5: Faster or Joyce fam we're the enemy. But they will

532
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 5: listen to you, their neighbor, their friend, who they trust.

533
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 5: And if you're patient and if you ask them questions

534
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 5: and let them answer and begin to plant seeds. We're

535
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: seeing that now right we're seeing Trump's ratings are the

536
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 5: lowest they've ever been. He's down in the thirties on immigration,

537
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 5: and that's because of these patient, quiet conversations we've been

538
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 5: having and the innate goodness of Americans. Trump has sold

539
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 5: people a lot of snake oil and a bill of

540
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 5: goods based on hate and racial disharmony. I think Americans

541
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 5: are ready to take that back, and we should all

542
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 5: try to play whatever role we can. Thank you, Joyce Vance.

543
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 5: Maria Farmer is a visual artist. She provided the first

544
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 5: criminal complaint about Jeffrey Ebstein to the New York City

545
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 5: Police Department and the FBI.

546
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: Welcome to fast Politics, Maria Farmer.

547
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for having me.

548
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to have you so much for any number

549
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: of reasons, but the first of which is you and

550
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: your sister were the first people ever to raise the

551
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: alarm and to come forward about Jeffrey Ebstein.

552
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: So if you can just talk a little bit.

553
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: About your story of the sort of end of it

554
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 1: and how you got because I've read it, it is

555
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: harrowing and horrific.

556
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: Right, So, not to take anything away from Annie at all.

557
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: But she was only sixteen when I reported. She did

558
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: not report anybody. Yeah, like it was me. I hated

559
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: that people think that I dragged a little teenager to

560
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: the NYPD. She had already been traumatized, so you know,

561
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: my mom and I protected her from reports or anything

562
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: like that until two thousand and six when they followed up.

563
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened when you came to the court

564
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: in the nineties, because I think it's really important. Well,

565
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: you went in and reported Epstein, and then because you

566
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: were really the first person.

567
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm definitely the first person, and I'm the only

568
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: one who reported the people I did. So let me

569
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: just explain first who I reported. I went first to

570
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: the NYPD, and they were so blown away by it.

571
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: I spoke to the Chief of Police and he said, Maria,

572
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: this is not even in our jurisdiction. I'll take down

573
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: what is in our jurisdiction. And what happened is Gaelen

574
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: Maxwell had just threatened arson against my building fifty two

575
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: Barrow in Greenwich Village, and so that was like elderly

576
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: people and artists, and I didn't want anyone harmed, and

577
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 2: so I was under an obligation to alert FBI that

578
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: her threats included arson against the building where I was residing.

579
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: So she told you she was going to burn down

580
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: your house. She said, my career's burned. She said she's

581
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: going to burn all my art whenever I make it.

582
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 2: That she was going to burn down the building a

583
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: fifty two barrow and it was a tenement building. You know,

584
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: we were all just struggling in there, and I didn't

585
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: want these innocent people harmed. And the NYPD told me,

586
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: you have to call the FBI because this is you know,

587
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: more international and also national. It involves many states. So

588
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: I'd never really even thought about, you know, the FBI.

589
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: Before I was the twenty six year old, I didn't

590
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: think about things like this. I thought about art all day,

591
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: every day. And that's why I loved Manhattan, because I

592
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: just became embedded in the art world. And I called

593
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: the FBI, and this is who I reported. I reported

594
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: Leslie Wexner, I reported Geeln Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Clinton,

595
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump. Wow, and let me explain why. Okay,

596
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: still to this day, I don't believe some of the

597
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: things saying that these presidents raped teenagers. Don't think that's

598
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: how it went down. That's my personal opinion because some

599
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: of their stories just seem but there's a pattern to

600
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: all the abuse, and the people who aren't involved in

601
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: the pattern tend to make up things and they make

602
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: it more extreme than it really was. Like right now,

603
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: there's this satanic panic bs going on, and that is

604
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 2: not what our case is about. And it's really really

605
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: disrespectful to victims. There's this really gross man named Nick

606
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: Bryant who's pushing this satanic panic, and like people like

607
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 2: Tim Burchett, you know, he's a representative, and they're pushing

608
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: this to harm survivors, to harm truth, to desensitize the truth,

609
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: make everyone think, well, it doesn't matter that Virginia was

610
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: a little girl trafficked and raped because people were eaten.

611
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: That never happened, right, So what people need to understand

612
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: is in that files release everything pre twenty nineteen, you

613
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: can pretty much hold on to it is truth. But

614
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: once the case broke there's a lot of people who

615
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: called in and declared, you know, I'm a victim involved

616
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: in our case and it's some kind of a psychological

617
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: problem that's going on here with these people. But that

618
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: the truth of it is, this is not satanic panic.

619
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: This is about child trafficking and rape. And for me,

620
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: I've been a lot less focused on the adults involved because,

621
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: oh the difference between what Annie went through and what

622
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: I went through, we had totally different experiences. But the

623
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: thing is I knew to report. And my little sister

624
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: didn't even understand what happened because she was sixteen years

625
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: old and she's a genius, like she's an IVY doctor,

626
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: and even she did not understand what happened. Right. It

627
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: made me wake up to the fact that teenagers' brains

628
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: are totally different, just totally different than adults. So I'm

629
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: very defensive for all the girls. And some of them

630
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: began as teenagers and they were swept into it and

631
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: they never got to leave, and they're just as much victims.

632
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: There's a girl, Nadia Marsenko, and all these people are

633
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: trying to blame her. She's a fifteen year old survivor.

634
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: She was fifteen when she was lured from Eastern Europe.

635
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: They took her passport away from her, they kidnapped her,

636
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: raped her. She did whatever she could to survive, she

637
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: really did. She had to just survive, and whenever she

638
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: tried to run away, they took her back. And she's

639
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: a beautiful young woman. And so it's a very complicated situation.

640
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: But the ones who started as adults in the luring

641
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: and procuring of children, I don't care about them. The

642
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: other thing is there's a lot of employees that are

643
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: now declaring they were victims, but they were adult employees.

644
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: They were cost conspirators. They knew what was going on,

645
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: they saw it every day, and they never reported. So

646
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: what's shocking to me is that I'm the only one

647
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: who reported all this and why I reported Bill Clinton

648
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump. I didn't ever see anyone harm a

649
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: child this whole time. I surmised based on the fact

650
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: that Epstein and Geelen stole photographs from my lock box

651
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: that were not people misstate this. They weren't X rated photographs.

652
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: These are photographs I used. I was in a figurative

653
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: art program, okay, so we used photographs as reference pictures.

654
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 2: They were kind of blurry, you know, sometimes my sister's

655
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: putting on his shirt. You know, it was all about

656
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: body movement. And I was using them not to paint

657
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: from directly, but his reference pictures for anatomy. I couldn't

658
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: afford a life model, right, So for those to be stolen.

659
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: One of my sisters when I took that picture was

660
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: eleven years old. The pictures they stole her she was fifteen,

661
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: So then I knew that these were pedophiles, right, And

662
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: so I surmised from there. When I reported that the

663
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: sitting president who had come to the mansion multiple times

664
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: to visit Geelen Maxwell, that's Bill Clinton. He came to

665
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: that mansion seventy first and she announced it. I did

666
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: not see him there. She announced it beforehand, and we

667
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: always had to prepare things the same way, and she

668
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: was just giddy whenever he would get there. Why is

669
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: the sitting president hanging out with pedophiles? That's why I

670
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 2: reported him. I didn't see him do anything nefarious. I

671
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: reported Ronald Trump because he was a ubiquitous character in

672
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: the life of Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein declared that was his

673
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: best friend. This man had more money than God. He

674
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: ran a modeling thing like this is nefarious, So I said,

675
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: you need to look into these other people. I reported

676
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: Leslie Wexner because he was he was in charge of

677
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: the whole thing, like he funded it. Jeffrey Epstein told

678
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: me that Leslie Wexner funded him entirely and provided him

679
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: access to everyone and provided him with his credibility. That's

680
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: what Epstein told me personally. I also reported Leslie Wexner

681
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: because I was held captive on his estate. He and

682
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: Abigail their estate, and I want to explain to people

683
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: that estate is three hundred and thirty acres okay, And

684
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: there was at the time when I was there, there

685
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: was one entrance and exit. There was no other way

686
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 2: to get through except through the Whitebarn gates on Whitebarn Road.

687
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: There were these white picck of gates, and the sheriff

688
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: often and the sheriff's deputy sat in that building and

689
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: the only way to get in and out was through

690
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: their property. And that building he designed. Leslie Wexner designed

691
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: after the Rotunda, I believe years before he knew Epstein.

692
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: I don't know what year, but he designed it to

693
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: match the Capitol building in Ohio, and he called it

694
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: the Rotunda. Epstein hated Ohio. He had no desire. That

695
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: wasn't his property. It may have been handed to him

696
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,959
Speaker 2: for a short time, but I doubt it. But they're

697
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 2: claiming that. But it's my opinion that maybe records were altered.

698
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: I can't say for sure. That's my opinion. I'm entitled to,

699
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 2: but it seems very odd. So I just want to

700
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: explain to your audience that when I called to report

701
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: what had happened to me my assault, I called nine

702
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: to one one from Leslie Wexner's guesthouse, Wow, and they

703
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: hung up on me. I called again and the same

704
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: girl answered, and she said, listen, let me stop you.

705
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: The sheriffs at the gates we worked for Wexner. And

706
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: she said, you know, you're just not leaving, and she

707
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 2: hung up on me again. His bodyguard, Randy Bowie, held

708
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 2: me against my will in a standoff for over twelve

709
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: hours and wouldn't let me leave. Okay, he had three

710
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: sharpshooters on his property, and Randy's the one who told

711
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: me that there were the three sharp shoot I have

712
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: pictures of them. There were three of these men who

713
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 2: kept me inside all day. I'm a nobody, like, why

714
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 2: are you keeping some artists, you know, in a guest house. Well,

715
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't a very fun experience, and I believe it

716
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 2: led to my cancers.

717
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: One of the most horrible things about this whole thing

718
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: is that people have attacked you, guys the vegetara.

719
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when the files.

720
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: Were released there was actually proof that you had done it.

721
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: Was that like amazing.

722
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 2: Well, it's a few things. First of all, I did

723
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: this beside Virginia. So for twenty three years no one really,

724
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: you know, my sister was harmed, so I couldn't really

725
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: be talking to her about it, and she wanted me

726
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: to move on with my life. So she was like Maria,

727
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: and no one's ever gonna know who Epstein is. You

728
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 2: need to move on, you know. And I just kept

729
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: trying to manifest this overtaking. I tried to expose power

730
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: like the whole time, and I did things. I talked to

731
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: people like crappy podcasts. I had all these, you know,

732
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: bad experiences because no one would let me say the

733
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: word Wexner. The mainstream media, who's been ethical and amazing,

734
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: just had liability, so they wouldn't let me talk about Wexner.

735
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: And so I talked about Wexner in any way I could,

736
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: and it didn't make me look so great. But I

737
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: just did it for the greater good, I guess, and

738
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: I got it out there right, and basically I was

739
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: doing it with Virginia, and Virginia kept me alive. With Mariika,

740
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: the two victims kept me alive by starting a GoFundMe

741
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: for my cancer. And so it's a mixed bag because

742
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: I can't really celebrate totally right now because she's not here,

743
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: So it feels like I ran this whole race and

744
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: I handed the on to her and we ran together,

745
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: and then she's not there and I can't win a

746
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 2: race without her there, right, So I'm kind of stuck

747
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: in this limbo feeling that isn't very celebratory. But I

748
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: look to her amazing family. They're so strong, and they're

749
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: the ones who, you know, truly suffering this loss, and

750
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: they're just carrying on her legacy bravely.

751
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about when you the

752
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: last time you talked to her was the.

753
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: Last communication was quite a bit before she died. I

754
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: don't remember exactly, but her husband was preventing us from

755
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: speaking with her, and so he was sending us ugly

756
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 2: messages through their email, making us think that. I mean,

757
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: I even contacted Mark and said, does Virginia not love us? Now?

758
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: Like what you know? I just didn't get it. I'm like, what,

759
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: this doesn't sound like her. I can't remember exactly, but

760
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: for the last couple of years she was tormented by

761
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: this man. That is truly the reason we don't have

762
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: her here now. It was just too much. Her children

763
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: were her entire life. I mean, I'm not here to

764
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: speak for her. Her family is but I can just

765
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: talk from my vantage point that man is the reason

766
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 2: she's not here, combined with all these other horrible people

767
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: and the fact that we were being bullied so so

768
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: badly online. It's continuing. There's a woman named Jessica Reed

769
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: Krause who has been staying at the White House. She

770
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: has singled me out to torment to death, and she

771
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: hired a felon on parole to lie about me, with

772
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 2: a fake royal named Hervey, I mean whatever, a royal

773
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: lady Victoria Mrvey, and they they went after Virginia even

774
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: post mortem. They've even picked up steam and they're pretending

775
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 2: to be affiliated with this case. It's got to be

776
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: mental illness, Like I don't know what it is, but

777
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: I know that it's a lot of felons and people

778
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: in power as well, like Daphney Barock was working with them.

779
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: And you know a hood harmed.

780
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: Virginia, right, that's a hooed Barack's wife, right.

781
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and who'd almost killed Virginia. Makes it very clear.

782
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 2: So the point is, like everyone's going after the victims

783
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: right now. It's bs like that Nick Bryant guy is

784
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 2: going after Hailey Robson. But Haley was a teenager when

785
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: she was roped into all this, And people don't understand

786
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: the power that these people had over us, right, So yes,

787
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: people like Danny and me and a lot of us

788
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: we refused to recruit. But who knows what he said

789
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: to her to make her do that? And so why

790
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: are you going after people who survived it instead of

791
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: the men and women who worked for Jeffrey Epstein for

792
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: real as adults with adult brains, right, And there's a

793
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: lot of them. There's a lot of them. One of

794
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: them's like suing the government right now with a group

795
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: of women. And she was there thirteen years as an

796
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: adult co conspirator in my opinion, So people have muddied

797
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: the waters and now everyone's victim all of a sudden.

798
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 2: I know, you know that Vicky ward Like originally took

799
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: our story and now she's suddenly declaring herself a victim

800
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: and a hero. But she tormented my family for decades.

801
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: Wait what happened? She never wrote the story. And when

802
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: she promised my entire family safety and she said that

803
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: it would be okay that I could confide in her

804
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: and I could trust her, and she ended up befriending

805
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: Geeln Maxwell instead, and she called me and said, Maria,

806
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: we're not doing this story now. She said, you put

807
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: a hawk next to your name on a boothday called

808
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 2: you signed hawt to Maria. You've lost all credibility. And

809
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: then she served me for mentioning her to this amazing woman,

810
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: Tatiana Siegel. I got to talk to her and I

811
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: really really like her and we had a fun chat publicly.

812
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 2: So Vicky Ward served me for telling the truth about her.

813
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: Would she sue? Do you No? She served me a

814
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: cease and desist, said I couldn't say her name anymore.

815
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: That's bullshit. I'll say her name when I want to.

816
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 2: This is my experience, and she tormented me half to death,

817
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: and she can't just serve me to get out of

818
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: this right, So she's in my opinion, these people that

819
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: aid it and about it are co conspirators. They're not victims.

820
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: They're people who in nab this to go on decades

821
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: and I looked it up and Vicky Ward wrote about

822
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: herself for decades. She wrote this one article that says,

823
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: when I was in my twenties, I was brunette with

824
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 2: wonky teeth. But now that I'm forty, I'm a fabulous blonde.

825
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: And here's how I did it. That's not writing about Epstein.

826
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: That doesn't make you a hero. You weren't afraid you

827
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 2: had the ability to write about him. If she was afraid,

828
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 2: then why I wasn't afraid. I fought him and I'm

829
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: a nobody. It's been a real battle to be not wealthy,

830
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: have my career stolen from me. Gelan Maxwell made it

831
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 2: clear to me, you've been leon blackbald Maria, you will

832
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: never have an art career, And it was true. And

833
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: I was studying with the phenomenal Eric Fischer, and he

834
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 2: kept beating his head against the wall, like why can't

835
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 2: I get you a gallery? All the doors were closed

836
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: to me. So I gave up right. But that man,

837
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: he's just such a phenomenal artist and tried so hard.

838
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: And he's the reason I survived Wexner's because he called

839
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: him and he gave me instructions on how to f

840
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: you have cancer?

841
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: Yes, how are you?

842
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 2: Are you? Okay? Oh? Thank you? So it's kind of complicated.

843
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: I believe that I've recovered from Hodgkins lymphoma, which you

844
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: know is a slow growing cancer. I do have a

845
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: brain tumor that will never go away. It's not removable,

846
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: it's vascular, so it's really damaged my faculties. I'm deaf

847
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: in one ear. I'm very disabled from it. Like I

848
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: can't drive, I can't bend over without passing out. There's

849
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. I have suberior vena cavas syndrome

850
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: from it, so my face gets really swollen. So that's

851
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 2: why in a lot of the interviews, I look really

852
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: funny and people make fun of me, like all the

853
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: trolls say, look at her, And meanwhile, I was just

854
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: being brave. I knew I looked horrible, but I did

855
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 2: all those interviews during chemo and radiation. I still have

856
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 2: to deal with the cancer. It's, you know, ongoing.

857
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: One of the things that you have been doing is

858
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: you've been painting.

859
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: Right, I haven't really done that much.

860
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: You have some of those paintings, right, I did some

861
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: here vendeark.

862
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 2: They're really great. I mean you should do more. Thank you. Yeah.

863
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: My lawyer, Jennifer Freeman, I just want to give her

864
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 2: a shout out. She's the most phenomenal human being. I

865
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: love her pieces. She's truly a victim's advocate for real.

866
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: She's a tremendous soul and she's always fought for children

867
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: and for survivors. Unlike a lot of the other lawyers

868
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: who entered as superstars and screwed us over, Jennifer Freeman

869
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 2: and James marshallaw are real And this isn't a commercial.

870
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: I'm being serious. Any survivors need a victim's advocate lawyer,

871
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: they need martial law because I went through it and

872
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: I want the world to know these people. So Jennifer's

873
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: trying to get me back on my feet for making

874
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: my art again, and I'm going to I work really

875
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: really quickly. So I think for about a month I

876
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: drew Revenge art and somebody hacked me and sent that

877
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: in to the FBI, so it's in the file right,

878
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 2: that was never it's really I mean, I like your bunny, ye.

879
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something I actually asked Danny too.

880
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: She's amazing. She's amazing too. Yeah, you know what, her

881
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: personality so aligned with Virginia's. They're just so similar that

882
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: I just really love her. I feel immediate love for her.

883
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she loves you too.

884
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

885
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: But what we talked about was that she thinks there

886
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: are still a lot of victims who have not come forward.

887
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: Do you think that's true? And if we're talking to

888
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 1: any of them right now, what would you say to them?

889
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'll tell you the theory. Mariika Chartoni, she's

890
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: another genius victim that was one of Virginia's closest friends.

891
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 2: And her theory is that a lot of them were models.

892
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: And I agree with her. She was a model, and

893
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: a lot of them were models. And they don't need resources,

894
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: and they don't need the harassment they've witnessed that victims

895
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: have endured, and so they're just kind of sitting it

896
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: out because it's not going to contribute to their lives

897
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: very much. It's not that they're not brave, it's that

898
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: they don't want to ruin maybe endanger their children's lives. Right.

899
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't criticize them for not coming forward. Yeah,

900
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: I think some of the victims have been murdered. Yes,

901
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: I I'm going to tell you why.

902
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: When I was on Wexner's estate and I tried to leave,

903
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 2: Randy Bowie looked me dead in the eyes. Now, this

904
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: is a sharpshooter. He looked me dead in the eyes,

905
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: and he said, you are never leaving. Do you understand

906
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: never leaving? And I said what does that mean? And

907
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: he said, it means you're never leaving. And he tried

908
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: to take me over to Wexner's main house from the

909
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: guest house, and I would not go. I would not

910
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 2: go because I know about if a person's going to

911
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 2: kill you, you make them do it there. It means

912
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: if they're trying to take you elsewhere, it means they're

913
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: uncomfortable doing it there for whatever reason. And so you

914
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: know this has been on Oprah. But also my mother.

915
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: I witnessed an experience with my mother when I was little,

916
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 2: and she fought very bravely in front of me, and

917
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: so I knew you never go to the second location.

918
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: So I said, no, I'm not going with you, and

919
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: I fought, and that's when I called everyone. I called,

920
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, I want to say, also, there are a

921
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: lot of people falsely accused here. Man named John Paulson JP. Yes,

922
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: he's a billionaire. You know what, he's the most stellar

923
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: gentleman I've ever encountered. Oh, that's interesting. He's not a

924
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: co conspirator. If I'm wrong, I apologize, But my experience

925
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: of this man is that he was truly a gentleman.

926
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that I've ever met such

927
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 2: a gentleman. He had feelings for me and never ever

928
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: tried anything, and was very, very accepting of the fact

929
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: that I just wanted to be friends. And he was

930
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 2: a mentor that would take me to Christie's and Sotheby's

931
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: and taught me all about antiques. He was a gentleman.

932
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: This man Massey tried to destroy John Paulson's life and

933
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: said he's on the list. First of all, there's a list. Secondly,

934
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: JP's not on it. If there is one that I

935
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: know of, it's just been all of it frama like

936
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: instead of speaking to us, a lot of these people

937
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: like Massy will just say things that have been harmful.

938
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: There's video everywhere, right, he can everywhere. Virginia talked about

939
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 1: cameras in the bathroom. She saw cameras in her bedroom,

940
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: so clearly the point here was to get compromising video,

941
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: yes or now no.

942
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Okay, So this is what I think.

943
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: This is my theory. I don't believe the blackmail thing

944
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: at all. I just I don't believe that. I think

945
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: that's an easy way of thinking of it. I think

946
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: it's much scarier than that. I think this is a

947
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: group of people with shared proclivities, and I think they

948
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: used these videos for enjoyment. I do not think he

949
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: held videos over people. I don't think it's that simple.

950
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: If everyone's in on it in the room, who are

951
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: you going to blackmail? Like everybody's in on it, and

952
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: so maybe there was some compromise. I don't know, And

953
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: maybe somebody thinks they were blackmailed, but I think I

954
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 2: think it made them all in a club, that made

955
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: them vulnerable, and they did it like a ceremonial club thing.

956
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: But yes, I actually was the first to mention the

957
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: pinhole cameras because I reported that to the FBI, because

958
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: that was used over me, you know, by these people.

959
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: So Gaylan and Jeffrey told me that there were pinhole cameras,

960
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 2: that Wexner outfitted all of his buildings with pinhole cameras.

961
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: So the buildings that weren't owned by Wexner at some point,

962
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 2: as far as I know, did not have those pinhole cameras.

963
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: But Gaelan and Jeffrey said that Wexner was paranoid and

964
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: that all of these videos dreamed back to New Albany.

965
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: That's what they told me. I'm not you know, I

966
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: don't know. I didn't see it, but I asked, why,

967
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: why why is everything on video? Right? Because Geelan the

968
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 2: first time she showed me to intimidate me, she said,

969
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 2: be careful about you say, because right above he's a

970
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: pinhole camera, see in the limestone right. And then Virginia

971
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: and I and I believe Danny, we were all shown

972
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 2: the video room where they recorded everything. There were men

973
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,959
Speaker 2: permanently there working and it looked like the old time

974
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 2: TV stacked, you know, and you know, this is the nineties,

975
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: and people don't understand. We didn't have cell phones. We

976
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: couldn't we didn't have cameras on us, We couldn't record

977
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 2: anything ourselves. But this is what we witnessed. And since

978
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 2: three of us witnessed it, it's you know, I think

979
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 2: these cameras were because he's paranoid, also because of proclivities.

980
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: That's what makes sense to me. It bothers me because

981
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 2: there's a woman who sold this two parts sleazy book

982
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: about blackmail on our case, and it took away the

983
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: voices of victims. And rewrote the story because that's just

984
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: it just doesn't make sense to me. So now everyone

985
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: believes it's black fail and that's not what I witnessed.

986
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 2: I witnessed people that were so deeply perverted and enjoyed

987
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: this perversion and shared it with Minnie. Thank you so much,

988
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: thank you.

989
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Oh, thank you so much.

990
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm honored to speak to you. By the way, you

991
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: adorable and Danny adored you two.

992
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: I think the worst part of the whole story is

993
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 1: that people are bullying you guys.

994
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: I've flung to life through part of it. I've really

995
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: had to. Like, at one point during cancer, I wanted

996
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: to give up, honestly, Like because of Virgin and Mariika,

997
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 2: I stayed a lot. So it's some of the victims

998
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: that kept me a lot.

999
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I have to tell you, like it's so

1000
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: inspirational and like you should be so proud of yourself

1001
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: for doing you know, like it just I mean, it's

1002
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: bravery is contagious, and like your story you getting out

1003
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: there and talking to the FBI, it's just.

1004
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know, Annie spoke to them in two

1005
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: thousand and six and she was still pretty young and

1006
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 2: she had to go through that.

1007
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: It shows that your parents like gave you the fortitude

1008
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: to be able to do something like that.

1009
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, mother is the most amazing woman in life, and

1010
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: she caught us to survive.

1011
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Thank you so much, Molly.

1012
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 2: Nod Jesse Cannon, Molly.

1013
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: I will forgive you if you are a little confused

1014
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 3: with this next headline, because one day you hear tens

1015
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,240
Speaker 3: of millions of dollars for IRS settlements. It's billions of dollars,

1016
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 3: all sorts of things with mister Trump. Today's newest one

1017
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: is we have a ten billion dollar from the taxpayer's

1018
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 3: bill for Trump's Board of Peace extortion ring.

1019
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

1020
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: I like that somehow, ten billion dollars. He really loves

1021
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: the number of ten billion dollars. That's like kind of

1022
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: his thing. He's saying that everybody paid him a billion dollars.

1023
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: I bet you none of those people paid him a

1024
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: billion dollars. And you know, he had a Board of

1025
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: Peace meeting the day that he is putting military airplanes

1026
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: and aircraft carriers in the golf.

1027
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 2: To mabe do some kind of bombing.

1028
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: So it's all very very non peaceful, this Board of Peace,

1029
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: and it has probably a lot more to do with

1030
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: cryptocracy than anything else. Also, I like that he said

1031
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: it's going to replace the United Nations. And he also said,

1032
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: and this is my favorite part of the whole story.

1033
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: First of all, it's going to replace the UN and

1034
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: Donald Trump will be the head of it forever and

1035
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: ever and ever. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1036
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear

1037
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos.

1038
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

1039
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.