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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Senator Mitch McConnell has joined Donald Trump and Carry

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Speaker 2: Lake by shying away from a national abortion band.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 2: Nina Jenkowitz stops Fight to tell us about our new organization,

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Speaker 2: the American Sunlight Project, and how she is fighting disinformation.

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Speaker 2: Then we'll talk to Boltz Magazines Daniel mcckanyan about state

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Speaker 2: level politics. They can have a big impact on our future.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the host of the Enemy's List,

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Speaker 2: the Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 3: Rick Wilson, Mollie John Fast, how are you?

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Speaker 4: I am in Washington, d C. The District of Columbia,

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Speaker 4: living the train.

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Speaker 1: Not prom beckins it's right, but the only thing worse

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Speaker 1: than being so talk to me about here we are?

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Speaker 4: We are the Supreme Court. What did you think of that?

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Speaker 5: Look?

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Speaker 3: I know a lot of people are like, oh, they

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Speaker 3: seem to be ready to restrict Trump's immunity. They were

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Speaker 3: also seemingly okay with Trump's attorneys sitting there saying, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we could sort of assassinate people, and maybe

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Speaker 3: not everybody, but they were talking about the president having

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Speaker 3: the right to engage in any kind of criminality inside

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Speaker 3: the quote ambit of his office. I'm sorry, folks, that's

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Speaker 3: not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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Speaker 3: And I was I think as disappointed as anybody that

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Speaker 3: supposed conservatives on the court, who are not, by the way,

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Speaker 3: conservatives anymore. They're radical, and they're far, far, far outside

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Speaker 3: of the traditional definition of conservatism. Were essentially on the

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Speaker 3: present case, they're sort of lollygagging and bullshitting along whatever. Right,

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Speaker 3: you know, we'll get to it when we get to it.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm talking about the future and also really

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Speaker 3: describing an openness, you know, when there's.

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Speaker 5: The things that the president must be able to.

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Speaker 3: Take bold and effective action, and when they're describing it

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Speaker 3: that way, all I can think of is, oh God,

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Speaker 3: these little weasels are going to say, well, martial law

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Speaker 3: is not bad, you know, I mean not bad per se, right,

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Speaker 3: who among who among us has not wanted to declare

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Speaker 3: martial law? The entire thing had a terrible feel to it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not an attorney, as I have famously noted about

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Speaker 3: a billion times. But I kept coming back to this

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Speaker 3: thing that I do know about, and that's people, and

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Speaker 3: the thing that I do know about, and that's politics.

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Speaker 3: And I'm telling you the argument that we're making was, well,

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Speaker 3: unless we give the president's immunity, they'll all transform into criminals.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Where the real worry that I think anybody who knows

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Speaker 3: anything about human beings is if they don't have any restrictions,

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Speaker 3: they will turn into criminals. This is what laws are for.

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Speaker 3: And the idea that you just that you have to

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Speaker 3: protect the president in such a massively sweeping, expansive way.

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Speaker 3: I had a lot of trouble yesterday with a lot

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Speaker 3: of my friends in on the right and the center

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Speaker 3: right and the left who say things like, oh, don't worry,

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Speaker 3: Trump will be restrained by the rule of law and

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Speaker 3: the institutions in Washington. I'm like, where which ones? Just

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Speaker 3: show me, Show me on the doll where the institutional

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Speaker 3: protections are, because I don't see it. Show me where

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Speaker 3: you think that Trump won't do the worst possible things

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Speaker 3: because I don't see it.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I was so struck by

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Speaker 1: was that what the Supreme Court is saying so it

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Speaker 1: sounds like they're probably going to kick it back to

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Speaker 1: the district court and give Trump the delay he wants.

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Speaker 1: But what I was so struck by is like, what

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Speaker 1: you have to realize about this is the institution not

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Speaker 1: holding right, That's what this is.

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Speaker 5: Correct, This is everything falling apart.

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Speaker 1: Right, This is the three Trumpet justices going along to

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Speaker 1: get along in a way that serves they're not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and for all of the idea that Amy Comy

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Speaker 3: Barrett was the one Republican.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday who at least asked questions, sort of kind.

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Speaker 3: Of even giving a shit about about the question of

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Speaker 3: whether or not there.

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Speaker 5: Were restrictions and limits.

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Speaker 3: If Amy Comy Barrett is your like rock star in

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Speaker 3: this thing, and John Roberts the one that supposed to

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Speaker 3: ignore me, I'm sorry, this is a.

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Speaker 5: Bad spot to be at it this point. This is

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Speaker 5: not great.

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Speaker 4: I would say it is not great.

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Speaker 1: You just have to realize that these are the institutions

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Speaker 1: not holding and yep, and that know that no one

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Speaker 1: is going to.

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Speaker 3: Say, Nope, we have to vote him out, We have

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Speaker 3: to vote at his minions in a scope and scale

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Speaker 3: and degree that, to use a Trumpian metaphor has never

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Speaker 3: been seen before, and you know, you have to beat

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Speaker 3: the hell out of him. You have to beat the

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Speaker 3: hell out of him, You have to destroy them in

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Speaker 3: political terms.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yes, important that you're supply.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, these days I have to say politically, I'll get

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Speaker 3: in trouble. Otherwise we saw the court make a very

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Speaker 3: political The vibe space of that court was extremely political.

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Speaker 3: And the nodding and the winking and the sort of

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Speaker 3: snideness from Alito about well, we know prosecutors are crooked.

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Speaker 4: Oh really, can I just say one thing about that?

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Speaker 1: If Alito were a liberal and never were two insane

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Speaker 1: liberal justices on the court, let's just place out for

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Speaker 1: a minute. Okay, the thought experiment as much as anything

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Speaker 1: a a duncan experiment. Yes, right, if there were two

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Speaker 1: insane liberals on the court. You don't think the Republicans

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Speaker 1: in the Senate would make their lives a misery like

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Speaker 1: the Democrats you control the Senate. You know what Sheldon

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Speaker 1: white House could do if Chuck Schumer would let him

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Speaker 1: and let him, let Sheldon white House.

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Speaker 4: I'm hearing this every day.

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Speaker 1: If Justice Thomas doesn't want to come, fine, but let

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Speaker 1: the American people.

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Speaker 4: Know that these people are not you know, that they're

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Speaker 4: not on the level.

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Speaker 3: You know, I just wish yesterday that Katanji Brown Jackson

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Speaker 3: had recused herself, given that her husband was so involved

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Speaker 3: in planning the one sixth attack and the exactly and

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Speaker 3: they are, oh wait, I'm sorry. That wasn't Katanji Brown Jackson.

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Speaker 3: That was that was Clarence Thomas. But the idea that

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Speaker 3: we have a sense of inevitability about the court letting

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Speaker 3: Trump go, letting him off because they know very well

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Speaker 3: if he doesn't get prosecuted now, it's not going to

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Speaker 3: happen in time for the election. They get it, They're

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Speaker 3: perfectly aware of it. And if we don't end up

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Speaker 3: and I think pretty quickly following the Wilson rule from

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Speaker 3: about a year and a half ago, where I kept

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Speaker 3: telling people nothing is going to change in the courts,

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Speaker 3: that's going to save you stuff.

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Speaker 1: Thinking that way, you do have to admit that you

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Speaker 1: are like a little bit impressed with how good then

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Speaker 1: your a case has turned out.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I will tell you flat out, I thought that

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Speaker 3: case was the weakest, and it turns out they've built

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Speaker 3: a pretty solid case here. And the reason I know

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Speaker 3: it's a pretty solid case is that Donald Trump has

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Speaker 3: kept his goddamn mouth shut.

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Speaker 5: About David Tecker.

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Speaker 4: Yeahs not trying.

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Speaker 3: To go out there and cause the Trumpian Matte mob

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Speaker 3: to go after David Pecker. He knows there is evidence

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Speaker 3: being put out there that for most Americans feels new.

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Speaker 3: They either forgot it or they didn't know it, or

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Speaker 3: it was two on the margins in twenty sixteen. But

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Speaker 3: now they're like porn star what they admitted it. I think, Look,

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Speaker 3: it's still not the full game changer for the entire.

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Speaker 4: Election, right, but nothing is but right because they did

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Speaker 4: not hold.

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Speaker 3: No, it doesn't hurt to see Sleepy down there every

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Speaker 3: day in his diaper, snoozing and grumpy.

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Speaker 4: And I would also add what I think is very

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Speaker 4: interesting about this case is again the pundon industrial complex.

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Speaker 4: This is the weakest case. This is the case I

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Speaker 4: would want this case to go first. It's terrible and

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Speaker 4: the theory of the.

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Speaker 1: Case basically was that Michael Cohen was a bad witness.

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Speaker 4: Meanwhile, Michael Cohen hasn't even been up there.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we have David Pecker who turns out to

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Speaker 1: be an incredible witness.

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Speaker 3: Don't you think, I mean, don't you think he's been

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Speaker 3: kind of shockingly great for the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he signed a non prosecution agreement, so they

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Speaker 1: knew exactly what he was going to say because he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to go to jail.

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Speaker 5: It's not the worst incentive, no, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, in this case, I think it's smart.

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Speaker 1: And what I think is really interesting is he talks

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Speaker 1: about I mean, there are you know, he says this

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Speaker 1: wasn't about Millennia, was about the election. He said that

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Speaker 1: he went to his general counsel and his general council

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Speaker 1: said he shouldn't pay off Stormy Daniels because it'll look

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Speaker 1: like an election interference and it'll be we don't know

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Speaker 1: what he said to a special council because that's confidentiality,

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Speaker 1: but clearly it's something that got him not to pay

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Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels so and likely had election.

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Speaker 4: You know that he knew what he was doing was

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Speaker 4: the least.

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Speaker 5: That's right.

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Speaker 4: He is making the entire case right there.

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Speaker 3: And I look, I do think that Pecker has been

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Speaker 3: I mean, aside from all the puns that I've been

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Speaker 3: able to make for the last several days, I do

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Speaker 3: think that Pecker has been remarkably compelling and in validating

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Speaker 3: the things that they're going to ask Michael Cohen about

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Speaker 3: in a few days. Trump's going to say, Oh, Cohen's

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Speaker 3: a liar. He's an adjudicated liar, just like Trump is

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Speaker 3: an adjudicated rapist. Sorry, I mentioned that.

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Speaker 1: A judge has rolled he's a racist, But yes, a

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Speaker 1: jury I don't think.

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Speaker 3: But long story short, all this testimony from Pecker is

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Speaker 3: going to validate a lot of the things that Michael Cohen,

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Speaker 3: who has cooperated extensively, is going to say in the

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Speaker 3: course of the next few days. And I think I

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Speaker 3: think people have undercounted what Michael will have to say

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Speaker 3: that could be seem less credible because of the attack

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Speaker 3: that Trump folks are going to bring in on the

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Speaker 3: fact that my Michael went to prison for a line

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Speaker 3: on Trump's behalf. But David has come across and basically said, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you know what I did these things for him. I

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Speaker 3: was doing him a favor. I was helping him because

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Speaker 3: of the campaign. Michael's going to say, it's because of

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Speaker 3: the campaign. We're going to we now end up knowing

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Speaker 3: that you know, Trump also was talking to Hope Picks

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Speaker 3: and Sarah Hucklefuck and that they were they knew it

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Speaker 3: was about political motivation. The whole thing is just not

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Speaker 3: going as for Trump as as smoothly as I think

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Speaker 3: he might have hoped.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about Sarah Hakabe and Hope Picks

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Speaker 1: because they did this while working in the White House,

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Speaker 1: so your tax dollars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's not forget they were a White House government

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Speaker 3: paid staffers.

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Speaker 1: I mean just in Saturday, like, the government paid those

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Speaker 1: people to help Donald Trump cover up his affair with

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Speaker 1: an adult film star.

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Speaker 4: So I thought that was pretty interesting.

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Speaker 3: Will die on the hill of the fact that this

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Speaker 3: guy is a degenerate and that he has no moral

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Speaker 3: sense whatsoever. But he had enough political sense to understand

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Speaker 3: that the exposure of payoffs to Stormy Daniels was not

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Speaker 3: bueno when it came to the political effect he would

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Speaker 3: have on his campaign, on his prospects of being elected president.

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Speaker 3: And because of that consciousness of the damage it could do.

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Speaker 5: That's where we're at right now.

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Speaker 3: That's where the situation, to my mind, is the most interesting,

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Speaker 3: because he knew what was going to happen if it

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Speaker 3: got out there. Further, he understood it. He's not Look,

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Speaker 3: Trump is not a smart man, but he has a

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Speaker 3: fairal cunning and a craftiness about him, and he picked

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Speaker 3: it up.

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Speaker 5: He read the room, and in.

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Speaker 3: Doing so, that's sort of how he's put himself in

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Speaker 3: this terrible box. Do you pretend that this was nothing?

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Speaker 3: Do you deny it again? Get and get banged for perjury?

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Speaker 3: The whole thing's just really ugly for him, and I'm

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Speaker 3: here for it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think would have happened had the dormy

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Speaker 1: Daniels came forward before the election, Like what if the

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Speaker 1: weekend of that excess Hollywood tape that had also burst?

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Speaker 3: I do think it would have been a thing. It

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Speaker 3: would have caused a ruckus. Now, I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: can't say that some of the things Hillary should have

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Speaker 3: been doing being in Wisconsin, et cetera, et cetera. I

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Speaker 3: can't say that would have cost him the race completely,

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Speaker 3: but it would have made it much more problematic. It

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Speaker 3: would have changed the news cycle at the end there

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Speaker 3: bit the presumption was that it had already killed him, right,

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Speaker 3: And that's a presumption that people cannot afford to make again.

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Speaker 3: Although I will say this that there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: polling theory starting to come out now, and the way

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Speaker 3: to move these voters is not as much like oh,

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Speaker 3: we're going to find other Republicans to say, I what

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Speaker 3: a bad Republican.

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Speaker 5: He is or what anything of that.

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Speaker 3: It is increasingly that voters need to be presented with

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Speaker 3: new information and when they find that the new information

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Speaker 3: or if it feels new, okay and man, they are

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Speaker 3: much more likely to go, hold up, what am I

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Speaker 3: doing here? Wait a second, what am I doing here?

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Speaker 3: And so Stormy kind of feels new to a lot

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Speaker 3: of people. She was not somebody who has been in

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Speaker 3: the news flow every single minute of every single day

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Speaker 3: since Trump left office. Now that she is, it's not

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Speaker 3: great for him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem as if these slatious characters coming

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Speaker 1: back from twenty fifteen and newness is like seven years ago.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, it feels new to most people. Look,

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Speaker 3: there's a generation of young voters who are now like,

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Speaker 3: who the fuck is that?

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Speaker 5: What are you talking about?

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Speaker 4: I mean, do you think there's a generation of young

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Speaker 4: voters or.

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Speaker 3: There's a cohort of younger voters? And you see this

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Speaker 3: in some of the polling, like the younger voters like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I guess Trump was pretty good economically, right, And it's

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Speaker 3: because they weren't really fully politically.

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Speaker 5: Conscious at that time.

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Speaker 3: But man, I mean, this is a place where you

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Speaker 3: really have you know, Trump in misery because he's trapped

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Speaker 3: in a courtroom listening to this shit. He's trapped in

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Speaker 3: a courtroom every day having to listen to this get

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Speaker 3: recapitulated and look whatever. I mean, all kidding aside. Whatever

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Speaker 3: they pay Milania to keep quiet, in the end, it's

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Speaker 3: not enough because you know, she's got to sit there

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Speaker 3: and eat this shit sandwich every day. She's got to

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Speaker 3: sit there and eat this gigantic shit sandwich.

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Speaker 1: One of the big anxieties. I think that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: a lot of Democrats people listen to this podcast and

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Speaker 1: people who we you know, come into contact with is

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Speaker 1: like our voters moved, Like can voters connect with some

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Speaker 1: of the information that's out there. I mean, for example,

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Speaker 1: like Biden World, they passed this humongous age aid package,

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Speaker 1: which no one thought they would be able to do,

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Speaker 1: including me. I was like, there's no way they're getting money.

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Speaker 1: And they got this money. They got Mike Johnson to

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Speaker 1: do it. I mean that was shocking to me. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was over for Ukraine and they really disappointed

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Speaker 1: in one blandamer Putin.

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Speaker 3: I mean Putin had a bad day. There's no way

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Speaker 3: to spin your way out of that one. You can't

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Speaker 3: spin your way out of the fact that a guy

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Speaker 3: you thought was in your pocket turned around and absolutely

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Speaker 3: wreck your shit, and I'm here for it. I think

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Speaker 3: that there is a degree to which the Biden administration

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Speaker 3: and the Biden campaign are going to continue to face

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Speaker 3: this sort of weird cross pressure. That they can do

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Speaker 3: the right thing, they can do, they can do the

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Speaker 3: right strategic things, they can do the right political and

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Speaker 3: policy things, and yet people who should be with them

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Speaker 3: are still like, not good enough. Fuck you, not good enough?

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Speaker 3: Give me more, do better? I want something different.

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Speaker 4: Is that a post pandemic syndrome? What do you think

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Speaker 4: it is?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Mollie. We're gonna probably disagree on this

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Speaker 3: a little bit. I think there are some progressives who

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Speaker 3: are exceedingly grumpy about certain things and won't stop being

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Speaker 3: grumpy even though it's hurting the team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's not a huge group. I mean aocs

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Speaker 1: out there campaigning with him.

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Speaker 3: No, no, I'm not talking about the legislative stuff. I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about the protesters at universities.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 1: I hate poles, but like they say, two percent of

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Speaker 1: all young people care about that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, but.

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Speaker 3: Guess what one percent of Rupert Murdoch's audience sees those

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Speaker 3: kids every night.

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Speaker 4: Right, But those are not liberals.

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Speaker 3: But I'm saying there are people broadly on the left

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Speaker 3: who are like, yeah, those kids are speaking the truth,

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Speaker 3: the power and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 5: Don't be sentimental about this stuff. People.

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Speaker 3: It's not a good look because every night on Fox

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Speaker 3: Now the audience is being told the radicals are coming

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Speaker 3: to kill you. Look, it's Antifa twenty twenty four, and

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Speaker 3: that shit is not inconsiderable with working class Democratic voters.

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Speaker 3: Do not undercount it. I spend a lot of time

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Speaker 3: worrying about that.

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Speaker 4: Rick Wilson, I hope you'll come back, you know, I will.

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Speaker 5: I'm your huncle.

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Speaker 1: Berry Spring is here, and I bet you are trying

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Speaker 1: to look fashionable.

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Speaker 4: So why not pick up some.

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Speaker 1: Fashionable all new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a

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Speaker 1: t shirts, hoodies, hats, and top bags. To grab some

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Speaker 1: head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 2: Nina Jankowitz is the founder of the American Sunlight Project

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Speaker 2: and a former Department of Homeland Security official.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Nina.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. Mollie.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I need you to tell your origin

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Speaker 1: story for our listen.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: First, I'm sorry, but I could tell your origin story,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't solve anyone's problems. I always feel like

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Speaker 1: it's better to have people tell them, so to have

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Speaker 1: the guest explain it.

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Speaker 6: I'll try to tell you the short, short versions. Otherwise

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Speaker 6: we'll be here all day. I have became with disinformation

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Speaker 6: researcher a little bit by accident. I used to work

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Speaker 6: in the democracy promotion space for the National Democratic Institute,

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Speaker 6: which is a non partis an organization that kind of

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Speaker 6: does democracy promotion abroad.

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Speaker 4: And I was a Russia specialist. That's where I cut

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Speaker 4: my teeth.

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Speaker 6: I did work in the former Soviet space and around

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Speaker 6: twenty thirteen, when the Year of my Don protests happened,

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Speaker 6: like the first invasion of Ukraine, that's when I started noticing, Hey,

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Speaker 6: like Russia is doing some scary shit with the Internet

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Speaker 6: and we all need to.

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Speaker 4: Wake up to it.

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Speaker 6: And I was told a lot here in Washington like

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Speaker 6: oh no, like everything's fine, you know that that's happening

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Speaker 6: over there. In those countries, but we don't need to

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Speaker 6: worry about it here. Fast forward a couple of years.

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Speaker 6: We all know what happened with Russian interference in twenty

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Speaker 6: sixteen and twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 4: I actually happened to be in Kiev at the time.

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Speaker 6: I was a advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

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Speaker 6: under a Fulbright grant that year, and so watching all

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Speaker 6: of that happen from abroad, particularly from Ukraine, which had

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Speaker 6: been living the realities of Russian disinformation for so long,

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Speaker 6: really frustrated me. And I wrote a book about How

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Speaker 6: to Lose the Information War. That was my first book,

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Speaker 6: and then I did a lot more research on disinform

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Speaker 6: not just of the Russian variety over the next couple

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Speaker 6: of years.

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Speaker 4: Fast forward to twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 6: I get a call from the Biden administration asking me

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Speaker 6: if I'd like to come serve my country, help advise

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Speaker 6: the Department of Homeland Security on the disinformation problem and

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Speaker 6: kind of craft this information policy that made sure it

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Speaker 6: had respect for civil rights, civil liberties, and privacy.

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Speaker 4: And of course I said yes right like I had

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Speaker 4: always been.

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Speaker 6: Working toward public service, and I thought that this was

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Speaker 6: an urgent issue. That our government needed to solve. One

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Speaker 6: of the first things I said to my boss as

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Speaker 6: at DHS when I got there, was like, we need

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Speaker 6: to announce this, and we need to do it soon,

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Speaker 6: because I'm a public figure and people are wondering where

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Speaker 6: I've gone. At the time, it was like right after

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Speaker 6: the second invasion of Ukraine began, and so I suddenly

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Speaker 6: disappeared from media as a Ukraine expert, which was suspicious,

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Speaker 6: and they gobdled for like eight weeks, and then they

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Speaker 6: finally announced it in a very opaque way, and the

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Speaker 6: right wing went absolutely nut.

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Speaker 4: Actually some on the far left as well.

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Speaker 6: They claimed that my job leading the Disinformation Governance Board,

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Speaker 6: which admittedly is a very bad name that I did

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Speaker 6: not come up with. They said that I was going

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Speaker 6: to be like America's chief censor, Tucker Carlson said that

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Speaker 6: I had the power to send men with guns to

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Speaker 6: the homes of Americans with whom I disagreed. People were

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Speaker 6: accusing me of treason. At the time, Molly I was

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Speaker 6: thirty seven weeks pregnant, and people were sending me and

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Speaker 6: my family death threats.

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Speaker 4: We were docs.

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Speaker 6: It was a really, really nasty situation that unfortunately has

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Speaker 6: become very normal in our politics today, and the administration

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Speaker 6: did not have my back.

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Speaker 4: They let me twist in the wind.

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Speaker 6: I think there were other political priorities at the time,

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Speaker 6: but it became clear to me that they weren't going

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Speaker 6: to solve this issue, not just like my personal heart

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Speaker 6: in the issue, but they weren't going to put their

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Speaker 6: back into like a really muscular response to disinformation. And

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Speaker 6: just to be clear, the board had nothing to do

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Speaker 6: with censorship. It was a coordination and policy body. It

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Speaker 6: didn't have the resources or were frankly the go ahead

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Speaker 6: from any part of government to do any sort of

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Speaker 6: censoring or arbitering of truth. And I wouldn't have approved

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Speaker 6: that anyway. All of my research says that stuff doesn't work.

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Speaker 6: But that didn't matter to the people who were lying

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Speaker 6: about me for power and for profit, and.

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Speaker 4: So I resigned. Three weeks later, I had my baby.

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Speaker 6: He's now almost two, and as I have gone through

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Speaker 6: the past two years, I realized I was the vanguard

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Speaker 6: in this mostly conservative operation to really intimidate and harass

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Speaker 6: disinformation researchers ahead of a twenty twenty four election. And

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Speaker 6: the idea, of course, is to do this for political

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Speaker 6: being they have been calling people before Congress, they have

445
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 6: been suing them and frivolous last seas they want them

446
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 6: not to talk exactly, and frankly, they're succeeding like these

447
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 6: are the canaries in the coal mine, and those canaries

448
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 6: are kind of getting snuffed out. Their funding has been

449
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 6: in dangers, their families have been endangered. They're scared. Their

450
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 6: institutions also don't have their backs in some cases similar

451
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 6: to what I've gone through. And here we are in

452
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 6: a situation where we've got AI supercharging disinformation.

453
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 4: We have foreign actors who are just licking their lips

454
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 4: at the polarization and problems that they see in our

455
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 4: American politics because it gives them so much to work with.

456
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 6: And we've got people who were happily spreading disinformation for

457
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 6: profit and we haven't dealt with that at all. And

458
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 6: social media platforms that have dropped the ball when it

459
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 6: comes to not only disinformation, but like other online harms

460
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 6: because they're worried about the political.

461
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 4: Backlash of Trump should get into office.

462
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 7: So we have a.

463
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 6: Cocktail of a really potentially explosive situation come November to January,

464
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 6: and I.

465
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 4: Decided to put on my hand and say we need to.

466
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 6: Do something about this because the worst has already happened

467
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 6: to me, you know, safe from like physical altercation, which

468
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 6: I hope, of course doesn't happen, but like I've gone

469
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 6: through the shit. I'm tired of people harassing researchers under

470
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 6: the guise of free speech.

471
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's the short version of me.

472
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: What do we think happened? I mean, I understand that

473
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 1: you were sort of targeted by the disinformation you were

474
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: trying to stop.

475
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 4: Right, I mean, isn't that the story ultimately?

476
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 8: Yeah?

477
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: And is that has that kept going with other people?

478
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 7: Yeah?

479
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it's kept going with other people, and still is

480
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 6: happening to me. I mean, even before we announced our

481
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 6: new project, the American Sunlight Project, I still get death

482
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 6: threats regularly.

483
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 4: I still get harassed regularly.

484
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 6: It was to the point where, like Fox News was

485
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 6: defaming me so much I decided to sue them because

486
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 6: it was just ridiculous. They were mentioning me eight months

487
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 6: after I resigned from government and I would get away

488
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 6: for AFFMN and.

489
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: Did it work?

490
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 4: Well, we're waiting. Do you mean their their defamation or

491
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 4: my lawsuit?

492
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: Your lawsuit? Their defamation obviously worked, right.

493
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, their defamation is extremely effective. The lawsuit, we're

494
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 6: waiting to pee, and we're waiting for a judge to

495
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 6: rule on the motion to dismiss, and then we'll see

496
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 6: where where we go from there. But I was the vanguard, right,

497
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 6: and they came after researchers who did critical work around

498
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 6: the election in twenty twenty, we're looking at things like

499
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 6: COVID disinformation, people who are looking at things like child

500
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 6: sexual abuse material.

501
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: We should all be able to get behind that. But no,

502
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 4: they have now.

503
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 6: Rebranded anybody who does information integrity research as somebody who

504
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 6: is pro censorship, which is just not the definition of censorship.

505
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 6: But it's so good for them, right, nobody wants to

506
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 6: be in fair censorship, and so they're able to kind

507
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 6: of context collapse and make this argument. And it's so

508
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 6: politically beneficial for them because they've effectively silenced the people

509
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 6: who were calling out their bs for many years.

510
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what happens? This sounds bad for November.

511
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 6: I'm not particularly optimistic, especially because we've got AI in

512
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 6: the mix. There was just a new report out today

513
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 6: that said that despite open AI's promises about you know,

514
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 6: lobbying and electioneering and you know making sure that nobody

515
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 6: uses their technology to create chatbots that can do that.

516
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 6: Open AI can be used to target Latino voters with

517
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 6: misleading information. We know that population is extreme susceptible to it.

518
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 6: We're more polarized than ever right, and we've got these

519
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 6: foreign actors that are all too happy to prey on

520
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 6: that polarization. And so that's where we hope the American

521
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 6: Sunlight Project can at least bring these issues to the forefront,

522
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 6: if not try to solve them.

523
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 1: Explain to me what the American Sunlight Project is.

524
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 6: Yeah, so we are an organization, a bipart is an

525
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 6: organization that is going to be attempting to increase the

526
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 6: cost of lies that undermine our democracy.

527
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 4: We're going to do that through research.

528
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 6: We've got old school OPO researchers on our team, and

529
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 6: we've got some open source investigators as well, more from

530
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 6: kind of the disinformation side of the spectrum, and we're

531
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 6: going to be blowing open every link in the causal

532
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 6: chain of disinformation, how it spreads, how it's financed, how

533
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 6: it makes its way from Congress to Elon Musk to

534
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 6: people like Steven Miller at American First Legal, who then

535
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 6: you know, create these lawsuits. Right, So we're going to

536
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 6: first focus on the the campaign against disinformation researchers, and

537
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 6: then we're going to look at all of the other

538
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 6: disinformation that will come between now and November. And there's

539
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 6: going to be a lot. There's already been a ton

540
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 6: since the beginning of the year. We're going to blow.

541
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 7: All that open.

542
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 6: We're going to do, you know, advocacy work talking to

543
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 6: the American people. I think a lot of folks would

544
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 6: be really scared to find out that we have modern

545
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 6: day McCarthyism happening right now in America.

546
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 4: So you have to say.

547
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 9: More about that.

548
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

549
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 4: Oh?

550
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, my grandfather was put in jail by McCarthy. So

551
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: this is not something I take lightly. So tell me

552
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: what that means. Yeah, I mean.

553
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 6: So, we've got the subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee,

554
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 6: the Subcommittee on Weaponization of Government, led by Jim Horgan,

555
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 6: who has sent out dozens of letters and subpoenad researchers,

556
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 6: including me. I had to go sit there for five

557
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 6: hours and speak to some of those folks about my

558
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 6: eleven weeks in government with the implication that somehow I'm

559
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 6: in kahoots and all these other researchers are in kohoots

560
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 6: with social media plots forms to censor conservatives, and that

561
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 6: couldn't be farther from the truth that's been borne out

562
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 6: by evidence, which again we'll be collecting on our website

563
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 6: so anybody.

564
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 4: Can look at it.

565
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 6: But the idea here is, Okay, Congress is after you

566
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 6: if you're in an academic institution and your institution's having

567
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 6: to spend hundreds of thousands, if not upwards of a

568
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 6: million dollars defending you, getting you legal representation, responding to

569
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 6: document requests, like you don't have time to do your

570
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 6: work anymore.

571
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 4: You don't have time to do that research.

572
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: Right, and they don't have people to protect them.

573
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.

574
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 6: And so we want to make that case to the

575
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 6: American people, but also tell people, you know, disinformation is

576
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 6: not just some technical thing. It's not just mean words

577
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 6: or words you disagree with online. It has effects on

578
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 6: people's lives, normal Americans lives, and so we're going to

579
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 6: be telling those stories as well.

580
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: You're basically it sounds like a little bit like media Matters,

581
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: but sort of with more of an emphasis on how

582
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: the information gets there.

583
00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: Is that right?

584
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: Or yeah?

585
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 6: I would say we're kind of a Media Matters for

586
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 6: the disinformation age, the digital disinformation age, right, I want

587
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 6: to put an emphasis on transparency and accessibility of this research.

588
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 4: You know, we are a C four. We're keeping a

589
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 4: close hold.

590
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 6: On our donors because this is a really dangerous environment

591
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 6: right now, as I know personally. But our investigations are

592
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 6: all going to be open source, all going to be transparent.

593
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 6: People can recreate them themselves if they like and follow

594
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 6: kind of the trail, and I think that's really important

595
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 6: in these days of kind of where people are making

596
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 6: these allegations based on again context collapse, no nuance, a

597
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 6: total kind of just illusions that they're involved in our

598
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 6: politics on So that's really important to me.

599
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 4: Not that Media Matters doesn't do that. They do great work, but.

600
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: No, no, I mean, I'm just thinking of something.

601
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: That's like it.

602
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think, I mean, and we consider Media Matters

603
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 6: and folks like the Center for Countering Digital Hate and

604
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 6: others in this ecosystem our allies in this fight.

605
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.

606
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: I'm hoping you could explain what the see chaininges at

607
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: X and how different it is. Obviously I'm asking you

608
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: a question. You know the answer to but I mean

609
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: that we all know the answer too, but I'm wondering

610
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: if you could just expand on it.

611
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's been such a sad thing to see X

612
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 6: formerly Twitter kind of crumble into being this, you know,

613
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 6: fringe hellhole, honestly because it used to be a place

614
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 6: where you could have conversations and get good information and

615
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 6: follow topics that were important to you and also find community.

616
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 6: And I think that's a really important one that's been

617
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 6: blown open since.

618
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 4: Elon Musk took it over.

619
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 6: I had never had a great experience on Twitter now

620
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 6: X Like I had always had a lot of abuse

621
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 6: and nasty content coming at me there because I'm a

622
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 6: woman who deigned to open my mouth on the internet,

623
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 6: but it got measurably worse since Elon Musk took over.

624
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 4: He fired most of the trust and safety staff.

625
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 6: He fired people who were looking at human rights abuses

626
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 6: around the world and making sure that the platform was

627
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 6: safe for dissidence and opposition figures around world. And he's

628
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 6: incentivized the sort of outrageous behavior that was always again

629
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 6: on the fringes. Now that's the stuff that people get

630
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 6: paid for on the platform. And I've just kind of

631
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 6: returned to Twitter to poke the bear in some ways,

632
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 6: to kind of talk about what we're doing and show

633
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 6: that you know, it's still a problem. And I'm shocked

634
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 6: at how bad the platform is now. And there have

635
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 6: been a lot of studies, including by ccdch who famously

636
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 6: Musk tried to sue and got his wrist slapped, actually

637
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 6: risk slapped, as.

638
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: I think a little too nice for what happened to

639
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 4: him in court.

640
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: He tried to sue them, and he also tried to

641
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: sue made matters.

642
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, exactly, and and he to my knowledge, did

643
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 6: not prevail in either case. And in the CCD I

644
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 6: really got his ass kicked, and rightly so, right like,

645
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 6: these are researchers looking at the harmful effects of this

646
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 6: platform online and he's tried to make it into a

647
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 6: monetized hate braid and that's sad. However, I will say

648
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 6: it's nice to have a little bit more in the

649
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 6: in the social media space, like a lot of other

650
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 6: places to try out these messages, places that are a little.

651
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 4: Bit more civil.

652
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 6: But these communities have broken up as a result of

653
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 6: Twitter breaking up, right, So like now it's I would

654
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 6: say it's not too far off from truth Social or

655
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 6: some of the other kind of quote unquote free speech platforms.

656
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 6: Of course, it's only free speech for people that Elon likes.

657
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 6: If you try to be critical of him, you get

658
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 6: blocked or kicked off.

659
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: Can we talk about what everybody else is? Where is

660
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: everyone else? Because like they're certainly not on Twitter anymore.

661
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: As someone who's stayed on Twitter, I feel like I'm

662
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: by myself a lot of the time.

663
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 4: You feel like a giant echo, like you get something out.

664
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, totally.

665
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 6: I mean I think people some people have gone to threads,

666
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 6: which I think, you know, has potential but isn't really.

667
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: Very hard to use.

668
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: I say this as someone who doesn't have that much

669
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: trouble using stuff. I have a lot of trouble using that.

670
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

671
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 6: And it also doesn't have DMS, which for journalists, for

672
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 6: you know, people we're doing work like the work we're doing.

673
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a feature that's really missing.

674
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 6: But I will say it's the more civil of kind

675
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 6: of the alternative platforms. A lot of people are on

676
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 6: Blue Sky. A lot of the very far left leaning

677
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 6: folks are on Blue Sky.

678
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 4: It's a bit weird on there.

679
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 6: I've been on there a little bit, but I don't

680
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 6: think they have the user stats that Friends does.

681
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 4: And then there's a lot of.

682
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 6: People, especially in kind of the public intellectual side of things,

683
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 6: really trying hard to make Instagram and TikTok work for them,

684
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 6: and it's just a really difficult transition to make. And

685
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 6: I'm struggling with it too, right, like going from techs

686
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 6: based platform that you fire off while you're standing in

687
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 6: your kitchen dealing with your snotty toddler, to needing to

688
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 6: make a fairly well produced video, like I'm not a

689
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 6: video producer, right, and it takes me a while. So

690
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 6: I think we've really not regrouped yet. There's hope that

691
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 6: like little personal communities like what substock offers or other

692
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 6: newsletters offer, can be a nicer, kinder, gentler Internet, But then,

693
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 6: of course we hit the whole Nazi scandalack, so I'm

694
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 6: not sure.

695
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: I think we're still figuring that out.

696
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true the far right. Are they somewhere where

697
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: we don't know where they are? Or are they still

698
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: on Twitter?

699
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 4: I think a lot of them are still on Twitter.

700
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 6: Obviously, Musk reinstated a lot of the accounts that had

701
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 6: been banned or had strikes against them earlier on. So

702
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 6: from what I've seen, there's plenty of far right gathering

703
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 6: on Twitter, but there's also always been a kind of underground,

704
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 6: sort of social media layer for fringe groups, not only

705
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 6: in saying this, like you know the Four Chans and

706
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 6: eight Coons of the world.

707
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: There's you know, patriots dot Win.

708
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 6: There's one particular forum that I tend to appear on

709
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 6: a lot, but is for ops of AR Fifteen's right.

710
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: So like all these little places, and they're they're quite violent.

711
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 4: That's not where you want to be.

712
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 6: No, No, that one's whenever I get a notification about that,

713
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 6: I'm pretty worried. But but there's also kind of groups

714
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 6: and Telegram channels and WhatsApp groups, And this is something

715
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 6: I've been warning about for a couple of years, even

716
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 6: before Twitter was imploding, and it's that we are driving

717
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 6: people inadvertently into these closed groups and closed areas on

718
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 6: the Internet where it is hard to understand what they're doing,

719
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 6: where it is hard to monitor that stuff. And don't

720
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 6: get me wrong, I believe everybody should have places for

721
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 6: private communication. But because of this, I hate using this term,

722
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 6: but Balkanization of the Internet it's making it a lot

723
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 6: harder for not only researchers like me, but law enforcement

724
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 6: to respond to this stuff. And I think that's part

725
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 6: of the reason, you know, the January sixth response was

726
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 6: not good enough, because we weren't really following to the

727
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 6: extent that we needed to the conversation online. I mean,

728
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 6: researchers were, but the government certainly is not up on

729
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 6: the latest and greatest monitoring technology of this stuff and

730
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 6: certainly doesn't know like the ebbs and flows of where

731
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 6: these folks are congregating. So we see some of them

732
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 6: on Twitter, but I think there's a lot of the

733
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 6: most worrisome rhetoric is on other places on the Internet

734
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 6: where it's a little bit more difficult to follow it.

735
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. Thank you so much for joining us.

736
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

737
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: Daniel Nickinian is the editor in chief and founder of

738
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: Boltz Magazine.

739
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: Daniel, Welcome to Fast Politics.

740
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 7: Thanks so much for having me.

741
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: There's so much interesting stuff going on, and every day

742
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about what's happening at

743
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: the state level. So, Arizona is a swing state with

744
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of some real lunatic Republicans, still in office.

745
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: That's what I know. At the federal level, right, like

746
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: people like Paul Gosar, like real wackads. So I can

747
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: only imagine. These are the people who put in place

748
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: the eighteen sixty abortion law, right, so I can only

749
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: imagine what's happening at the more granular state level.

750
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 8: So continue, Well, it's interesting in Arizona because it's the

751
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 8: state that is extraordinarily important for presidential politics, for federal politics,

752
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 8: for the US said it, for the White House. The

753
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 8: more you go down, it's like a nest doll situation

754
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 8: where the more you go local state, you find more

755
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 8: and more very important races that are stacking up together.

756
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 8: I mean, arguably the most important electoral state this fall

757
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 8: in that sense. And the abortion band that you were

758
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 8: just mentioned in the eighteen sixty four law that was

759
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 8: just revived two weeks ago now by the State's court

760
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 8: has just dramatized that altogether. It's really brought tension around

761
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 8: the judge races, these referendums, the races for the state Assembly,

762
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 8: the state Senate, as well as racist for prosecutor, which

763
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 8: is what I just wrote and wrote about a few

764
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 8: days ago because I was interested in the people who

765
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 8: actually would have authority to enforce the eighteen sixty four

766
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 8: ban and potentially try and bring criminal charges against medical

767
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 8: providers the state.

768
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 7: What are their thoughts? Are they going to enforce this?

769
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 8: And even there they're a huge contrast with prosecutors. Just

770
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 8: to give you one example, Molly of the extreme on

771
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 8: the right, there's one county attorney there, which is the

772
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 8: title for prosecutors who have been part of this lawsuit

773
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 8: to try and revive the law. And when I reached

774
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 8: out to their office to ask whether they would prosecute

775
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 8: individuals or doctors or women honor the law, they referred

776
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 8: me for my questions to Alliance Defending Freedom, which is

777
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 8: a religious nonprofit that is involved in all of these

778
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 8: litigation around the country against abortion. They referred me to

779
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 8: ADS four questions about whether they would prosecute me.

780
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: What, yeah, explain that to Mary.

781
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 8: That's a prosecutor's office in Arizona that is refusing to

782
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 8: take questions from the media about about their policy would

783
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 8: be about whether medical providers in the county should be concerned,

784
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 8: and instead is asking me to ask the same question

785
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 8: to religious organization. It's pretty extreme situation. A lot of

786
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 8: prosecutors are trying todd of the question, which also is

787
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 8: a problem, right Like this, this is a simple question,

788
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 8: what is your approach going to be to this new

789
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 8: law that is now potentially in your hands, And some

790
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 8: prosecutors are saying, nope, we will never use this law

791
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 8: to charge anyone in the state of.

792
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: Arizona, right, which is a crazy place to be with

793
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: the law. Like, I think that what's really important about

794
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: this is it's good that they're not going to prosecute

795
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: people for this because it's insane. But it's more important

796
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: to realize, like this is because the Republicans in the

797
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: judiciary in Arizona and in the State House in Arizona

798
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: are out of their fucking minds.

799
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 8: Right.

800
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: The decision not to prosecute is because they have to

801
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: do it because this law is so insane. Now, supposedly

802
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: they did just pass or repeal, right that they're going

803
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 1: to go to the fifteen weeks.

804
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 8: The state House has passed it at this moment. The

805
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 8: State Senate hasn't yet, and so we'll see what happens.

806
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 8: You're right, Even if that it can foreband is repealed,

807
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 8: other restrictions would still be in placed, which also have

808
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 8: criminal penalties in them, and so the same sort of

809
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 8: question who's going to enforce how? I mean, there's just

810
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 8: so many pieces of that puzzle. So the extent to

811
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 8: which this has just put all of those decisions at

812
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 8: the hand of these very, very county based officials is

813
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 8: very extreme.

814
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

815
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, what does the election look like there? Who's up

816
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: and how and where and discuss?

817
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, pretty much everyone is up in Arizona, just I

818
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 8: said with the prosecutors. What I was finding in my

819
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 8: reporting is that the biggest Arizona county Maricopa County, which

820
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 8: is more than four million people. It's where Phoenix's has

821
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 8: a prosecutor race with a Democrat who says she will

822
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 8: never file charges on abortion cases and a Republican named

823
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 8: Rachel Mitchell, who actually some of you may remember seeing

824
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 8: on your TV because in twenty eighteen during the Brett

825
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 8: Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, she was the person who replicans have

826
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 8: to interrogate Kristen Ford. She was at the time, not

827
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 8: not yet the county attorney she is now she's running

828
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 8: for reelection and she's not answering questions on what she

829
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 8: would do under the law. But then you know, it

830
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 8: goes all the way, there's all the races for state

831
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 8: Senate in the state House are up, and if there

832
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 8: is going to ever be repeal of all of these

833
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 8: abortion restrictions, it might have to go to the state

834
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 8: and House and Senate. There also might be a referendum

835
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 8: ballot that is still not not final, but organizers are

836
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 8: trying to put a referendum on a ballot to codify

837
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 8: abortion rates. Now, we have seen referendums like that succeed

838
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 8: right we know Ohio last year, in many other states,

839
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 8: so that would obviously be the defining election.

840
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 7: I think in November in a Marico about.

841
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: When do we know if the abortion referendum will make

842
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: it on the ballot.

843
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 7: We will know that in coming months.

844
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 8: The organizers have already succeeded at collecting the required number

845
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 8: of signatures, but my understanding is that they want to

846
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 8: continue collecting them just to make sure they're Hey, there's

847
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 8: a lot of surprises, but Mali. What's also super important

848
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 8: is that there's always lawsuits around amendments initiatives in Arizona,

849
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 8: and they often go to the state Supreme Court, and

850
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 8: the state Supreme Court has struck down referendums in the past.

851
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 7: As as not relevant.

852
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 8: And the State Supreme Court obviously is the same state

853
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 8: Supreme Court that just revived the eighteen sixty four man.

854
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 8: And what's super important, two of the judges on the

855
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 8: state Supreme Court are also on the ballot in November.

856
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 8: They both actually voted to revive the eighteen sixty four man,

857
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 8: and they will both be in the ballot in November.

858
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 9: Now.

859
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 8: A final note, which is maybe the single craziest part,

860
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 8: Republicans are also trying to pass a measure right now

861
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 8: that would end elections for judges in Arizona and would

862
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 8: apply to this year. So they're also trying to pass

863
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 8: that right now.

864
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: So they want to be kings, right, I mean, that's

865
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: the thinking here.

866
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 8: That measure would also be put on the ballot if

867
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 8: Republicans succeed, and it will be such such an intense

868
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 8: election with not just abortion but also the re election

869
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 8: of people who revived the abortion man and also this

870
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 8: measure to end elections.

871
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 7: It's really a state to watch throughout here.

872
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's more than a state to watch. I mean,

873
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: it's an example of the Republicans' anti democratic leanings.

874
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 8: Right to that point, there's a lot of other measures

875
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 8: Republicans have already put on the ballot to limit voting

876
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 8: rights in the state of Arizona and to make it

877
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 8: harder for people to put bad initiatives and qualify them.

878
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 7: That is already on the ballot. So there's already already these.

879
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 8: Measures to restrict elections, restrict voting rights that are already

880
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 8: being pushed through in Arizona right now, and it's all

881
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 8: coming to a head. We have seen it in other states,

882
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 8: like in North Carolina, in Wisconsin, how hard it can

883
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 8: be for measures like that to be recovered from. It

884
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 8: can take a very long time for the conditions to

885
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 8: be right for some of that stuff to be rolled back.

886
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: So voters really need to focus, right.

887
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 8: I mean, there's going to be a lot on their ballots.

888
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 8: I mean I just named four or five referendums that

889
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 8: are that are going to be on their ballot, including

890
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 8: potentially abortioning sot in voting rights. There's going to be

891
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 8: so many local offices, some of which you know, the

892
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 8: stakes are horrid, right Like when you see a prosecutor

893
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 8: race as one of the twenty elections to vote for,

894
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 8: or a judge race, you might not necessarily know what

895
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 8: who these people are there isn't even a party that

896
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 8: is going to be on the ballot. On the judge elections,

897
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 8: you won't necessarily know that these are the people who

898
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 8: voted to revue abortion bands. So there's just a lot

899
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 8: of research to be done on any election by voters

900
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 8: to get to the stakes.

901
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: Talk to me about what other states you're watching and

902
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: one other stuff is happening besides Arizona, which now has

903
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: given me an anxiety attack.

904
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 8: Maybe let's talk about state courts for a moment, because

905
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 8: obviously Arizona is responsible, the court is responsible for the ban,

906
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 8: and then it's itself on the ballot. But that is

907
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 8: also true in many states. You know, if at the

908
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 8: federal level the Uspreme Court is not up for election,

909
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 8: but at the state level in most states it is

910
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 8: that we're seeing the majority of states have elections this

911
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 8: year where their court. Often these are the most tricky

912
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 8: elections to figure out because a judges record is not

913
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 8: heavily reported, it's hard to piece together. So at both side,

914
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 8: I did a guide to every state's court races. There's

915
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 8: very important stakes in so many, so I will start

916
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 8: with naming Ohio and Michigan as the two states where

917
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 8: a partisan majority could flip, and that has very high

918
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 8: implications if it does. For issues like abortion, issues like

919
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 8: voting rights, it matters so much whether the majority on

920
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 8: the court is republic on democratics. So in Ohio, Democrats

921
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 8: have a shot at flipping the court, and in Michigan,

922
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 8: Republicans are hoping to flip the court. Even beyond that,

923
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 8: if you're in North Carolina, if you're in Mississippi, there's

924
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 8: all these interesting judge elections that could shape the balance

925
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 8: of power.

926
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 7: And in fact, I'll end on Florida to.

927
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 8: Say that, just as in Arizona, there are two to

928
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 8: Supreme Court justices in Arizona who voted to ban abortion

929
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 8: who are now on the ballot, the same is true

930
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 8: in Florida. There are true justices who in March voted

931
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 8: to uphold the abortion band who are now going to

932
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 8: be also up for retention election in November. So you know,

933
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 8: the stakes are actually quite similar. Abortion voting rets are

934
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 8: coming up everywhere, and they're going to be under the

935
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 8: radar of their presidential election, but they might also shape

936
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 8: the presidential election because these are the people who will

937
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 8: be called on to issue decisions in November and December.

938
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 8: If Trump tries to contest an election, for instance, tell

939
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 8: me what else to take what I was saying about

940
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 8: Arizona elsewhere. There's going to be abortion referendums in a

941
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 8: lot of places. Again, the most important probably is going

942
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 8: to be Florida because of the conditions there and the

943
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 8: abortion ban that is going into place. There's also a

944
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 8: referendum in November to lift the abortion ban. Now, now,

945
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 8: the issue in Florida for abortion rights proponents almost always

946
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 8: win at the ballot box, right, This is there's not

947
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 8: a controversial.

948
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 4: Issue sixty percent.

949
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 8: Is that there's a threshold of sixty percent, and that

950
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 8: is not easy. That is not easy to meet, especially

951
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 8: if there's any organized opposition. I mean, the fact that

952
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 8: it's even possible, the fact that it's still a realistic

953
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 8: possibility to abortion rights clear sixty percent in Florida just

954
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 8: just gets just really captures the basic point that this

955
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 8: is not a controversial position. These bands are extremely popular, right,

956
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 8: and there's still a shot for bortion rights to get

957
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 8: sixty percent for sure. There's also a measure in Florida

958
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 8: to legalize weed in November, which is also an issue

959
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 8: that has passed fairly easily around the country.

960
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: There are these ballot initiatives, there are these judgeship races.

961
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: What's happening in this sort of in the Ross belt

962
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: in the Michigan Wisconsin area.

963
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 4: Is there anything like that? Can you talk to us?

964
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 8: The stakes really, I think in the rost Beelt in

965
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 8: the Midwest, but also around the country when it comes

966
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 8: to state politics is who is going to control Obviously

967
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 8: the state governments, so you know, the state Senates and

968
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 8: state houses in almost every state are on the ballot

969
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 8: every two years, so they will be again on the

970
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 8: ballot in November. So, for instance, let's take the state

971
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 8: of Michigan that Democrats just won full control of Michigan

972
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 8: for the first time since the eighties in twenty twenty

973
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 8: two in the midterms, we know, which was already a huge,

974
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 8: huge win for Democrats because it wasn't supposed to be

975
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 8: a good year for them with the Democratic White House,

976
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 8: and they gained full control of Michigan.

977
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 7: And they've done actually a lot with that power.

978
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 8: They've passed on an issue that I cover closely, They've

979
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 8: passed a lot of voting rights bill to strengthen voting

980
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 8: rights in Michigan, a lot of stuff that hadn't been

981
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 8: able to pass for so long, and now the majorities

982
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 8: that Democrats gained in twenty twenty two are are going

983
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 8: to be up in twenty twenty four. Are Democrats going

984
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 8: to be able to keep control of the state government

985
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 8: in Michigan? You know, cool questions like that are primordial

986
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 8: in Wisconsin. Oh, Wisconsin is so important because it's going

987
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 8: to be the first election in so long for state

988
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 8: Senate and State House that are not going to be

989
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 8: under their gerrymanders because the state Supreme Court to connect

990
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 8: all the dots what we're talking about. When Liberals gained

991
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 8: the States Court in Wisconsin last year, they promptly struck

992
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 8: down the gerrymandered maps that are locked in the GOP

993
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 8: into power in Wisconsin for a long time. And this

994
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 8: is going to be the first election in Wisconsin that

995
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 8: is going to follow that that is going to have

996
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 8: fairer maps. So are Democrats going to be able potentially

997
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 8: to take back the State Senate ord the State House?

998
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 8: At the very least, they should be able to make

999
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 8: large gains in both chambers, which is going to also

1000
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 8: change the state a lot. That's you know, we're seeing

1001
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 8: that kind of dynamic everywhere. A last example in North Carolina.

1002
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 8: It's sort of an inverse situation. It's such an important state,

1003
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 8: it's a large state. So there's two things to watch there.

1004
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 8: I think one is the Republican nominee for God you know,

1005
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 8: is as fortunately.

1006
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 7: Right as you get at this typele of politics.

1007
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 8: He had made comments about whether women should have the

1008
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 8: right to vote.

1009
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: He is the lieutenant governor, right, he.

1010
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 8: Is right now, the lieutenant governor, correct, And he's running

1011
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 8: against the ag Josh Stein, who's a Democrat. So that's

1012
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 8: one right, that's who's going to occupy the governor's mentioned.

1013
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,959
Speaker 7: The second is the State House and State Senate. Why

1014
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 7: because the sitt Supme Court actually flipped the GOP last

1015
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 7: year and blessed GOP jerry manders, and Republicans have passed

1016
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 7: new maps as well in North Carolina. For for Congress,

1017
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 7: Republicans are hoping to keep super majorities that they have

1018
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 7: in North Carolina. Again, huge huge impact on all sorts

1019
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 7: of issues, in footing abortion because Republicans just passed major

1020
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 7: restrictions on abortion in North Carolina over the veto of

1021
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 7: the current governor. It's so important to keep an eye

1022
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 7: on governor's races and State House state Senate races all

1023
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 7: over the country with all all of these states to watch, so.

1024
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: Really interesting staff, So the judgeships, the state houses, the

1025
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: state Senate. Is there any other state where we should

1026
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: be thinking about that's important? Besides, all the states are important,

1027
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: but where there's like small races that nobody is paying

1028
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: attention to, what I.

1029
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 8: Will throw on the radar of people is you know,

1030
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 8: I think earlier you said that I gave you an

1031
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 8: anxiety attack, So I'm gonna I'm going to lean back

1032
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 8: in that direction.

1033
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: No, that's okay, it's me.

1034
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 7: It's nice law enforcement offices, Molly.

1035
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 8: We don't necessarily think of them as like the center

1036
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 8: of all of these important left right struggles. But the

1037
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 8: Trump camp and the far right in general has found

1038
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 8: a lot of support among sheriff's offices around the country.

1039
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 8: There's a lot of our Right Connections conferences even that

1040
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 8: these officials attend, and they also are on the ballots.

1041
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 8: So in states like Arizona, again, in states like Kansas

1042
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 8: and states like Wisconsin, you know, we are watching there

1043
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 8: these elections at the county level for sheriff and whether

1044
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 8: some people who are affiliated with these far right groups

1045
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 8: are going to win reelection this year. You know, there's

1046
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 8: been more attention in recent years, I think on the

1047
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 8: left among Democrats around these offices, around sheriffs, and we

1048
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 8: have seen some very high profile people on the far

1049
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 8: right loose. But we're also seen a lot more attention

1050
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 8: I think on the right to connect the dots between

1051
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 8: these sheriffs and invite them to conferences and pluck up

1052
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 8: talk to them about investigating elections and investigating abortion.

1053
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 7: So we're also seeing a lot of that.

1054
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 4: Pretty scary.

1055
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining.

1056
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 7: Us, Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun.

1057
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: No more.

1058
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 4: Jesse can drag fast.

1059
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 9: You know, Republicans have a long history of some dubious

1060
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 9: things with dogs coming up into presidential races, but this

1061
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 9: one is pretty disgusting this time. I think it tops

1062
00:51:59,400 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 9: the wall.

1063
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 10: Christy Nome makes Mitt Romney look like James Harriet. Oh boy,

1064
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 10: she wrote a memoir. She probably didn't actually write it.

1065
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 10: Someone wrote a memoir for her which included a story

1066
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 10: of her killing both a dog and a goat. She

1067
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 10: included these stories because she's a moron, and because she

1068
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 10: forgot that the American there's one thing the American people love,

1069
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 10: it's dogs.

1070
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 9: And also goats, and then would she decided to make

1071
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 9: her statement on it. She admitted to killing three horses.

1072
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she is our moment of fuck Ray. That's

1073
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1074
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

1075
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1076
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1077
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.