1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: Next question. 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: Okay, you guys, I have a confession to make. I 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: have a real thing for Frank Brunie. He's gay, though, 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: so don't worry. He has been a prominent journalist for 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: over three decades, twenty five of those at the New 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: York Times. It was such a huge treat to sit 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: down with him at the Temple Emmanuel Striker Center earlier 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: this month to talk about his new book. It's called 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: The Age of Grievance. Gosh, that title really rings true 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: right now. Don't you think it seems like whatever we're 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: talking about politics, or the latest movie release or what 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian was wearing to the met Ball, somebody somewhere 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: is going to be upset about it and have their 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: knickers in a twist. I think it's important to point 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: out that historically, grievance has actually fueled some really important 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: social movements, like the Revolutionary War and the Civil rights movement. 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: That's when grievance actually has led to something positive. But today, 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 1: Frank argues, this constant bitching is having a very corrosive 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: effect not only on public discourse, but who we are 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: as a country. Here's our conversation. And by the way, 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: I was told the audience noticed we had real chemistry. 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: Hashtag just saying hi everyone, good evening. We've got a 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: nice crowd this evening. Thank you all so much for coming. 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: I am thrilled to be able to be in conversation 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: with Frank BRUNEI don't tell anyone, but I have a 27 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: big crush on Frank. There are a lot of Frank 28 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: Brune groupies among my friends. And I couldn't be more 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: excited to talk about your new book called The Age 30 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: of Grievance, Frank, and it explores so many of the 31 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: ideas I have been thinking about as I consume media 32 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: and am still a part of media. And I think 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: you've really captured the complicated moment we're in in our culture. 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: You write the American soundtrack has become a cacophony of 35 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: competing complaints. Nice alliteration, by the way, and. 36 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: I go, I go a little bit of literation crazy. 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: I'm just warning you, yeah, no, yeah, my literation is triggering. 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: Don't read the book. 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: I think this might qualify for the love of sentences 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: in your newsletter, Frank. If anyone gets Frank's newsletter. That's 41 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: one of my favorite parts where people write in and 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: say when something's been particularly well written. And I love 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: reading those in addition to all your insights, But did 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: you have a tipping point? Did a light bulb go out, 45 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: Frank when you thought I am going to write about 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: this current moment and the fact that we do have 47 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: a cacophony of competing complaints. 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: You say that it's like a tongue twister in your 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: picked at it. First of all, thank you very much 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: for I'm delighted to be here with you, and I 51 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: want to thank everyone at Temple Emmanuel. This community is extraordinary, 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: and this is like the fourth or fifth book I 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: think I've launched or talked about here. So thank you 54 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: for always being so welcoming. It means the world to me. 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: Give yourselves a round of applause. 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: I think it was a more gradual thing, and I 57 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: have to give some credit. I think my editor, Ben 58 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: Lunan is in the audience, and the book was actually 59 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: his idea. He had been thinking about this himself. He'd 60 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: been reading things I'd written, and he was sort of 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: I think he could speak for himself, but he was 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: tying things together and saying, hey, you know, as I 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: read you, as I think about stuff, you know, don't 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: you think we're living in an age of grievance? And 65 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: what would you think about a book on that? And 66 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: I said, well, let's make sure we're on the same page, 67 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: and so I wrote down some thoughts than we were. 68 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: I've just been noticing for a while I think trump 69 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: selection was a reflection of this, and then it became 70 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: an accelerant of this that our public debate to me 71 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 2: seemed to be changing and being degraded in a way 72 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: that was new and disturbing in the context of my 73 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: adult lifetime. You know, we've always had polarization, we've always 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: had partisanship, but I feel that the temperature of our discussions, 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: the combativeness of them, the lack of productivity to them, 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: is it a kind of nator And I really wanted 77 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: to spend some time thinking and writing about why that 78 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: may have come to be, what it's costing us. I 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: think the parts of the book that mean the most 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: to me are the reflections on what we're losing out, 81 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: on what we're doing to ourselves by constantly being in 82 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: these postures of agrievement, and then how we might pivot 83 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: beyond it. 84 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Did you have any trepidation at all tackling this issue, 85 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: because it seems no matter what you say, things are 86 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: even misconstrued, misrepresented, weaponized. I've had that happen to me personally, 87 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: and I was curious if that was a little frightening 88 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: for you, right to wade into these waters. 89 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: I'm frightened as I sit here tonight. 90 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: Well, isn't that a product and what you're talking? 91 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm frightened every time I file a newsletter, you know, 92 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: I just kind of put the finishing touches on tomorrow's 93 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: newsletter today, and I'm frightened when I hit sand I'm 94 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: frightened every time I'm at the keyboard. I'm frightened when 95 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: I'm speaking in a classroom full of students, even though 96 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: I've had a terrific experience at Duke University. And we 97 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: can talk more about that, because I do think a 98 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: lot of the coverage of campuses right now dabbles too 99 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: much in broad generalization and caricature. But yeah, it's a 100 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: really scary time. And to go back to students, I mean, 101 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: I've had students tell me and it's so upsetting given 102 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: what an education is supposed to be about in the 103 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: phase of life. Thren, I've had them tell me like, 104 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: it takes a while in a given class and a 105 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: given semester to feel comfortable saying what's on their mind 106 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: because they're so worried that they'll fumble through their words, 107 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 2: they'll say something they didn't mean to say, somebody will 108 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 2: take it the wrong way, and the next thing they know, 109 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: I mean to use the vernacular, they're canceled, right right. 110 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: That's a real thing. It's a real fear. And sure 111 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: I worry about it too, but we have to just 112 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: we have to have these discussions. I will do my 113 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: fumbling best to say what I mean. Some people will 114 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: disagree with me, some people will agree with me, and 115 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: you know, that's just the nature of the game. 116 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: It seems to me that we're not only you know, 117 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: participating in grievance culture and we'll talk about that more 118 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: in a moment, but also in binary thinking. To me, 119 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: this idea of dialectical thinking, yes, and has become increasingly 120 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: rare in any kind of discourse, looking at nuanced looking 121 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: at complicated topics, kind of seeing different sides of the issue. 122 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: How do you associate that with grievance. 123 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: Frank, Well, I think we're living in an era where 124 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: and we'll go back to students for a second, because 125 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: I think they're emblematic in this sense where people feel 126 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: anytime something happens, they have to take aside, they have 127 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: to stake their position, and then they have to cling 128 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: to it and defend it. And then, because of the 129 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 2: nature of the internet right now, because of social media, 130 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: as soon as you have chosen your side, taken your position, 131 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: you begin to filter all the information coming to you 132 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: in a way that validates the decision you've made. And 133 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: it's the quintessence of closed mindedness, right, It's the antithesis 134 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: of genuine inquiry, and it means that nobody ever gets 135 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: to say some really important phrases. It's complicated. Most things 136 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: are complicated. I'm just not sure. I'm still figuring this out. 137 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: Those I think are really virtuous things to say, but 138 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: we're living in an age when those are seen as 139 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: signs of moral and intellectual weakness. Right. 140 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: In fact, I think people are increasingly penalized for not 141 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: taking a position on these issues. When you think about grievance, 142 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: how would you describe grievance? 143 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the way I think about it, in 144 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: the way I describe it, And well, I mean a 145 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: grievance obviously is a complaint. It is it is, Well, 146 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: it's a complaint, right, I mean grievance, And the word 147 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 2: didn't used to have such negative connotations. If you go back, 148 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: it's in the First Amendment the word grievance is. But 149 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: if you think about when you see the word grievance 150 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: these days, and if you kind of did your own 151 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: little survey on Google when you went home tonight, you 152 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: would find almost always grievance is used in a negative, 153 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: negative context, with negative connotations. And that's because there are 154 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: so many complaints out there, and the legitimate are mixed 155 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: with the illegitimate. 156 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: Because you do write the grievance can be an instrument 157 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: for really positive social change. 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean the fight for civil rights that was 159 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: founded on a grievance. We're a nation born of grievance, right. 160 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: But in this moment in time, I feel like so 161 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: many people are complaining about so much at such a 162 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: pitch that what requires attention, what is urgent, and what 163 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: is righteous gets jumbled together with all the other stuff, 164 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: and it's just a kind of din I think of 165 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: grievance in today's culture, in today's world, people they're opening 166 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: the opening part of their political engagement when they go 167 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: into the public square. It's with a position of how 168 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: have I been wronged? Who has wronged me? What am 169 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: I owed? And how do I get back at them? 170 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: Look at our look at our current political campaigns. Pretty 171 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: much at any level, most candidates spend more time telling 172 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: you how awful the alternative is and how you have 173 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: to elect them, you know, as a bulwark against that. 174 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: We're telling you how hard they're going to fight the 175 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 2: fight against those evil people on the other side. I mean, 176 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: of course, the epitome of this is Donald Trump literally 177 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: saying verbatim when he rolled out his current reelection campaign 178 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: or election campaign, I am your retribution. Vote for me 179 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 2: as a way of getting back at your enemies. What 180 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: happened to the idealism in politics right well? 181 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: What did happen to the idealism of politics right now? 182 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: Yielded to an age of grievance. 183 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book, your previous book, because I 184 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: think it's an interesting juxtaposition to this one. You write 185 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: in the Beauty of Dusk about your experience losing your 186 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: sight in one eye and facing the possibility of losing 187 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: your site in the other eye, by the way, I 188 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: asked Frank, and his vision has stabilized, which is really 189 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: good news. So let's keep our fingers crossed for that. 190 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: But this happened after you suffered a stroke, and you 191 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: say that that experience presented a very clear choice for you. 192 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: You could either focus on what you had lost or 193 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: focus on what remained. So how did that and your 194 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: experience actually inform the writing of this book. 195 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: It informed it in the sense that and I think 196 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: I say this in the book that one of the 197 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: things I realized on a personal level was that stewing 198 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: over and constantly measuring your misfortunes is no way to 199 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: get to contentment. And I think that that personal realization 200 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: applies in the public realm too. That doesn't mean you 201 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: accept conditions in the world that are hideously injust and 202 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that when you are being genuinely wronged 203 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: and you might be able to find recourse, that you 204 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: just shrug your shoulders and say, no, I'm not going 205 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: to think about that. But it does mean that you 206 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: put things in perspective and you don't get carried away. 207 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: And I had to. I had to realize that in 208 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: a certain sense in my personal life when I lost 209 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: certain abilities and began to struggle with certain things because 210 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: of my compromised eyesight. And I think maybe that did 211 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: give me, if you'll forgive the vision related words, a 212 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: different view of public life as well. 213 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because you write about how a 214 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: lot of readers found hope and solace in your story, 215 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: and others found cruelty and actually tried to shame you 216 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: for your reaction to your circumstances. Can you talk about. 217 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, this wasn't the majority reaction at all, but 218 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: I got more than a few emails, communications of various 219 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: kinds that said, what you're doing and talking about your 220 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 2: positive adjustment and how you made the most of this 221 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: is cruel because some of us have anxieties, depressions, you know, 222 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: a kind of mental health where we can't make that adjustment, 223 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: and you're taunting us, and you're holding something up that's 224 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: impossible to us. Now, there's some truth or legitimacy in 225 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: that if you just kind of say buck up, everything 226 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: will be better, you are belittling the sorts of mental 227 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: health challenges that some people deal with, but to me 228 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: it also epitomized this desire to find fault and logic complaint. 229 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: I was just a man who'd had a stroke, who'd 230 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: been told that for the rest of his life he 231 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: would live with the twenty percent chance of going blind, 232 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: and I was trying to describe my own psychological and 233 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: spiritual journey in a way that I hoped would be 234 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: instructive and inspiring to most of the people who read 235 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: about it. And it just seems to me, you have 236 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: to you have to make a decision to take issue 237 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: with that, and you have to be determined to see 238 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: the dark side of everything. And I think a lot 239 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: of us live our political lives that way. 240 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: Historically, I think the idea of victimhood is completely anathetical 241 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: to the idea many conservatives have of themselves as being 242 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: defined by personal responsibility, a stiff upper lip, and traditional values, 243 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: which you were alluding to lately. Though you feel that 244 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: grievance quote transcends partisan affiliation. Talk about this idea and 245 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: how grievance has become universal because you do state that, 246 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: and then you really cite a lot of right wing 247 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: grievance folks you know, the people who are plotting against 248 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, Carrie Lake, you talk about Ron DeSantis, you 249 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: talk about Marjorie Taylor Green. So can you talk about 250 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: how this kind of covers the entire political spectrum, because 251 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people see it more on 252 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: one side than the other. 253 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because you just alluded to the way 254 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: we used to look at in the past or whatever. 255 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: But if you go back to the late eighties in 256 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: the early nineties, and I did, and I went back 257 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: and down magazine covers and all that, it's astonishing how 258 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: similar the conversation feels to today when it comes to 259 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: wokeness right. I was just somewhere else today and someone 260 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: played a clip of Robert Bork from back in those days, 261 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: and he was talking about the left and its radical egalitarianism, 262 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: and I realized, that's just more syllables to say wokeness. Right. 263 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 2: But at that point in time time, Robert Bork, other 264 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: people on the right, they saw this as a phenomenon 265 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: of the left. They thought this was just the multiculturalists 266 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: at universities. Charlie Sykes, a very prominent conservative commentator, brilliant writer, 267 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: and a never Trumper. 268 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: Now, I mean yeah, right. 269 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: He wrote a book that came out in nineteen ninety 270 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: two or nineteen ninety three, I forget the exact year, 271 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: and it was called A Nation of Victims, and it 272 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: was someone on the right side of the political spectrum 273 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: mocking this behavior on the left, mocking frivolous lawsuits, mocking 274 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: you know, glossaries of words you shouldn't use, et cetera. 275 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: I interviewed him for the book and he's quoted in it, 276 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: and he said, what was so interesting between then and 277 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: now is all of this sort of victim mentality and 278 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: woe is me, and this is what you owe me 279 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: that the right used to mock the left for is 280 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 2: the quintessence of the MAGA movement. Right. It's what January 281 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: sixth was in part about. 282 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: Are you saying there snowflakes? Are you saying they're snowflakes? 283 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: I'm saying they're a damn blizzard. 284 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: When we come back, Frank will address some criticism he 285 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: received from his own newspaper. If you want to get 286 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and 287 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign 288 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: up for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going 289 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: to Katiecuric dot com. There are still those who insist, 290 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: Frank and I'm sure you've read this review, or maybe 291 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: you haven't, that you had a partisan agenda with this book. 292 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to read a short excerpt from the Recent Times. 293 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, bye, Lionel Schreiber, and let you respond to it, 294 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: says Nevertheless, since Bruni has made his political views public 295 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: for years, he's assuming the role of neutral arbiter, maybe 296 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: a better word, as referee, seems like an artifice. The 297 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: Age of Grievance is appealingly moderate in tone, positively beseeching 298 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: in fact, but also unabashedly partisan. The book is pitched 299 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: at the so called classical liberal who believes the progressive 300 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: left sometimes goes too far, but that the real danger 301 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: to the country's well being comes from the trumpy and right. 302 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: I think the gravest. I don't think the book is partisan. 303 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: Am I constitutionally and by nature essentially a center left person? Yes, 304 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: so obviously I can't write as much as I try 305 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: to see things in the most open minded way. We 306 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: all have our tropisms, our leanings, and I'm sure I 307 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: have my own. I think the book is very even handed, 308 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: but it's even handed without indulging in false equivalences, and 309 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: they kind of fascle both siderism. I think this is 310 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: a very difficult subject to talk and write about because 311 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: there is a grievance mentality, a corrosive grievance mentality, that 312 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: exists on the right and left both that exists, as 313 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: you said, across the political spectrum. Don't think that's the 314 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: same as saying the threat of it is equivalent on 315 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: the right and the left. Where do we have, by 316 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: far more organized political violence on the right, who came 317 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: up with a plot luckily foiled to kidnap a governor 318 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer the right? Where do you see paramilitary groups 319 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: the right? Where do we have pervasive, profound election denialism? 320 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: We have that much more so on the right. Yes, 321 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: you can find some of these things or analogs to 322 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: them on the left, But I was just some of those. 323 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 2: I was just calling things as I saw them. 324 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me to describe some of those analogs on 325 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: the left that you would say that this is the 326 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: manifestation of grievances by liberals. 327 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't know if it's a grievance 328 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: per se. But if we're talking about being totally fair, 329 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: one of the I don't actually read many reviews just 330 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: because I'm an extraordinarily thin skinned person and the way 331 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: I manage my psychological health is not to look at 332 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 2: my Twitter. I'm sorry X mentions not to look at 333 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: any of that. 334 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: That's very wise. 335 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 2: But like three or four people emailed me about that, 336 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: and I thought, shit, I've got to read it just 337 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: so I can intelligently respond. I thought, I thought Lionel Shriver, 338 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: whom I don't know, and they try to give reviews 339 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 2: to people who don't know you, I thought she made 340 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: a really really legitimate complaint about me not making any 341 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: mention of the violence associated with the George Floyd protest 342 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: with you know, after the George Floyd murder and all 343 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: of that. I think I probably didn't mention it because 344 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: it didn't feel organized and sustained to me in the 345 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 2: same way as you know paramilitary groups on the right. 346 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: But it is an example of people taking their complaints 347 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 2: their grievances to extreme and extremely dangerous length. So that's 348 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 2: something you see on the left, you also see on 349 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: the left. You know, the MAGA movement. It's all about 350 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: the government is oppressing me. All of these condescending elites 351 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: in places like the Upper East Side of Manhattan don't 352 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: care about my life, you know, et cetera. But on 353 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: the left, I mean, you see people applying the prisms 354 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: of racism, of sex, of homophobia to situations where that 355 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: prism is absolutely appropriate and to situations where it's not appropriate. 356 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: And you see people defining them themselves by minority groups 357 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: are in categories, and it's all about how wrong they've 358 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: been by the world. So yeah, you see that on 359 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: both sides for sure. 360 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about go ahead, can. 361 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: I Actually I want to just because I want to 362 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: make clear what I'm talking about in terms of this 363 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: indiscriminate application of prisms and lenses. And it's an example 364 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: I use in the book, but I don't think it's 365 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: the only one. So when Britney Griner was jailed in Russia, 366 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 2: horrifying situation and you know, languished there for months, I 367 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: saw a commentary on the left. I saw columns written, 368 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: you know, by people on the left that she was 369 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 2: being forgotten and stranded and no one cared, and the 370 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 2: government didn't care because she was a black, lesbian woman. 371 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: We heard more about Britney Griner as a political prisoner 372 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: than any other political prisoner I can remember in the 373 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: last decade now, and we should have been hearing a 374 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: lot about her, because that was a horrifying situation and 375 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: she did not deserve, by any stretch of the imagination, 376 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: to be there, and we had to get her out. 377 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: But this notion that she was languishing or that she 378 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 2: was somehow getting inadequate attention because of racism, sexism, and 379 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: homophobia is ridiculous. And the problem is when you make 380 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 2: those claims in situations where they're patently ridiculous, you undermine 381 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: your credibility. When you need to make those claims and 382 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 2: situations where it's urgent, you actually do a disservice to 383 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: your cause rather than a service to it. And we 384 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: live in this era where there are all sorts of 385 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: right and left, both grievance entrepreneurs who go out there 386 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: and just say the same thing regardless of circumstances and 387 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 2: end up giving the people who disagree with them a 388 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: reason to tune out and pay no attention. 389 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you about social media in 390 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: a moment, but first the impact that Trump presidency and 391 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: now election efforts are having on this. You say that 392 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: this age of grievance actually predates Donald Trump. We saw 393 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: seedlings of it in Sarah Palin. And by the way, 394 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: you're welcome, right, I mean, so. 395 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: You conducted one of history's great interviews. You know, thank you? 396 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 2: Do you can I ask you a question? 397 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 398 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: Sure, as long as we've known each other, do you 399 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: remember that particular interview? 400 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: Well, I, oh, we have largerieree second of it. I 401 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: remember one of her campaign aides reported to me later 402 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: by my producer emailing or texting someone and said, this 403 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: is a fucking disaster. I didn't realize that at the time, honestly, 404 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: and I thought that I would actually be blamed for it. 405 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: And that's why I almost kept, you know, a very 406 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: sort of straight faced affect, and I never sort of 407 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: looked at her oddly or I didn't do the Amy 408 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: Puehller thing. I don't know why she blanked so much. 409 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: I don't think I blinked that much in interviews, but 410 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: I didn't think. I didn't really think it was going 411 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: to have an impact because I thought people were so 412 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: deeply entrenched in their affection or dislike of her. It 413 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: wasn't going to change any minds. But I think what 414 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: it did it took the great center and thought, and 415 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: I think people thought, is she really ready to be 416 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: to become president of the United States? And I think 417 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: that interest. Yeah, I think that interview showed that she 418 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: was honestly over her head in terms of kind of policy, 419 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: her understanding of policy. But is that the first time Frank, 420 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: you saw this, this environment or this atmosphere of green 421 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: events and anger and anti elitism and anti expertise, because 422 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure historically we've seen it a lot, right, Yeah, No, I. 423 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 2: Think it's probably gone in waves historically. I wouldn't say 424 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: first time, but I think things began to crescendo, just. 425 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: Like the Tea Party too, right, Yeah. 426 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: With the Tea Party, a lot of what happened in 427 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: and after two thousand and eight I think was a 428 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 2: really pivotal moment, and the Tea Party was part of it. Yeah. 429 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: I mean she at the end of the day, most 430 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: Americans didn't support her. Most Americans were frightened by the 431 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: idea of her and the presidency. But to those people 432 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: to whom she had appeal, her supporters, they did come 433 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: to see her, and she's even seen in retrospect as 434 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: one of the first kind of examples of how cruel 435 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: the elite, condescending people on the coast could be to 436 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: someone who maybe didn't have their level of erudition, who 437 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: maybe couldn't, you know, riffle through all the proper nouns 438 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: that they could, but who was a good person, And 439 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: maybe there's a grain of truth in that. I do 440 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: think if we're all to do some sort of public 441 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 2: soul searching, one thing we should think about is when 442 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: we disagree with people politically, how often do we speak 443 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: and act in a way in which we're looking down 444 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: our noses at them, Because that is not an effective 445 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: strategy to getting them to kind of maybe see and 446 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: entertain our side. It's an effective strategy for just driving 447 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: people apart. 448 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: I think that's so interesting because I think one question 449 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: that I kind of regret asking her was there was 450 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: a lot made of the fact that she had never 451 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: traveled outside the country and that she didn't have a 452 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: passport or something until she was much older. If I 453 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: don't remember the exact details, but I remember asking her 454 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: about that and she said, you know, we couldn't really 455 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: afford to take trips outside the country. You know, I 456 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: had to work all the time. And I thought, yeah, 457 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: that is a really kind of shitty question to ask somebody, 458 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: because she had a very legitimate reason, And to me, 459 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: that was an example of this sort of dismissive snobbery 460 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: that I think sometimes infects the media. And I was 461 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: sort of in retrospect embarrassed that I asked her that question. 462 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 2: And what's fascinating right now is Trump has so defintely 463 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: exploited that and yet he's a creature of the establishment. 464 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 2: He's as elite as it gets, and I think it's 465 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 2: some of the craziest political sorcery I've ever seen. 466 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: Well, please help us understand that, because you know, he has. 467 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: To understand he has a goal, he has a he has. 468 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: A golden toilet seat, right, and I mean, how how 469 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: does he mix that grievance with is it? Is it 470 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: mixed with aspiration? Help us understand, Frank, please, because. 471 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: I know I'm I'm throwing I'm thrown off because after 472 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: you said golden toilet seat, you said how does he 473 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh my god, where's this question going 474 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: to go? You know, so I'm a little rattled. You 475 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: have to give me a moment. Yeah, you know where 476 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: we live in such a tribal time that that, my 477 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: guess is if they paused and think thought about it more. 478 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: A lot of his supporters realize he's not exactly the 479 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: perfect symbol for the way they feel they've been treated, 480 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: but he is so emphatic and so consistent at telling 481 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 2: them I'm going to get back at the people you hate. 482 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to hate them bigger and with more consequence 483 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: than you do. And that's that whole I am your retribution. 484 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: And he's been consistent about that. He's been for a 485 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: man who's not always disciplined, he's been disciplined about that, 486 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: and he has seen how well it works. There's a 487 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: lot about Donald Trump that does not feel very smart, 488 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: but he is very smart about noticing what's working for him. 489 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: And he has the advantage over some other politicians because well, 490 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 2: politicians as a breed, I know this is going to 491 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: come as a shock, are egotists and tend to be 492 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: very self focused. I've met few who make every decision 493 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: one hundred percent solely about what is good for them. 494 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: And if you do that, there's a great, great competitive 495 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: advantage in being as shameless as Donald Trump is. 496 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: At some point, will there be grievance overload? I mean, 497 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: how much can this engagement through enragement, anger and stoking 498 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: people's you know, circumstances and sort of this anger, channeling 499 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: this anger through him sort of the perfect vessel. At 500 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: some point will that get old? Frank? 501 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we've seen signs, you know, sporadic, intermittent, 502 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 2: not like a straight line, signs of it getting old already. 503 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're kind of looking for some reassurance 504 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: and some hope, let's look at what happened in the 505 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty Democratic primary, right, Joe Biden was not the 506 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: most grievance animated candidate in the Democratic field. Joe Biden, 507 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: in fact, in a field that was kind of that 508 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: showed the party moving left, where Joe Biden was among 509 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: the most moderate candidates in that field. He was the 510 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: one who kind of spoke in the most measured and 511 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 2: inspirational tone of a lot of them, and he won 512 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: the nomination. And that was partly about people just kind 513 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: of making the bet that he would have the best 514 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: chance against Trump. And this is about defeating Trump. But 515 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: I think it also said something about what people were 516 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: responding to Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders much much bigger flame 517 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: throwers and other people in that field, and Joe Biden prevailed. 518 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: And I think it's in part because there are a 519 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: decent number of Americans who are tired of the volume 520 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: and the vitriol of it all and will respond when 521 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: given a choice to a candidate who seems to be 522 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: turning the temperature down rather than turning the temperature up. 523 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. 524 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: Then, I was going to say, how are you feeling 525 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: about twenty twenty four. 526 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: I'm feeling terrified. And I also feel like this is 527 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: an election everyone kind of wants to say around the 528 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: kitchen table on a stage like this, Okay, what's going 529 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 2: to happen? What's the best bet? I don't think there's 530 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: a way to make a bet. I think this is 531 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: one of those elections because of so many variables. Trump's 532 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: criminal trial current one the ones around the bend, Joe 533 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: Biden's age. I think there are variables and things are 534 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: going to happen, maybe a number of things between now 535 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: and December that I think could really change the arc 536 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: of this contest. In a way, we cannot look like 537 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: predict right now. 538 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that he's I'm not just the 539 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: grievance candidate, but the candidate of retribution. And I don't 540 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: know if anyone read the Time magazine cover story he 541 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: did a recent interview talking about his plans for his 542 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: vision for the future, and there's some pretty scary stuff 543 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: in there about upending sort of the government. And when 544 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: he was asked why so many people with whom he worked, 545 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: his cabinet officials, etc. Weren't supporting him, he said, I 546 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't have let them go on their own terms. I 547 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't let them resign. Next time, I'm going to fire 548 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: a lot more people. I mean, it sounds like. 549 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: That would have made them more kindly disposed to him. Now, 550 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: who knows, but I think what he really wishes is 551 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: he'd made them all sign NDA's that's what he really. 552 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, but why doesn't that seem to resonate or 553 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: does that seem to be an extension of grievance, That 554 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: grievance ideally will lead to retribution, so people can get 555 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: some kind of outcome for their grievances. 556 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: It's an extension. I mean, he's feeding on people's angers. 557 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: People are in thrall to their own anger. I quote 558 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: a Yale psychiatrist in the book about how your mind 559 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: on grievance looks a lot like your mind on drugs. 560 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: It's very exhilarating. It kind of gets the heart going faster. 561 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 2: The problem is like a drug. The ultimate outcome is 562 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: not any good. But yeah, I mean, he's been pretty 563 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: clear when you read that Time magazine interview. Even before 564 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: the Time Magazine interview, he's been kind of clear about 565 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 2: the kind of administration he wants to have. There still 566 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: may be safeguards and pushbacks that would not allow him 567 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: to have that kind of administration if he were re elected. 568 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: But if he gets reelected and he gets his way, 569 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody this time around can say, gee, 570 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: I had no idea. I thought it was all theater. 571 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: I didn't think he was serious. This time around, we've 572 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: been warned. 573 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: After the break. Are we doomed to a future of 574 00:30:52,960 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: more and more outrage journalism. Let's talk about the impact 575 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: social media has on feeding the grievance industrial complex, if 576 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: you will. Kara Swisher talks about engagement through enragement, and 577 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: it seems as if that the media has to participate 578 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: in this sort of deal with the devil. That anger 579 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: makes people gravitate to more stories. If you're trashing someone 580 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: or if the headline is emanating some kind of anger grievance, 581 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: it's much more appealing for people. So talk about how 582 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: social media has exacerbated this, Well. 583 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 2: It's exacerbated in the way you just just identified what 584 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: makes something rise to the top. In social media, it 585 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 2: gets reactions as something that is impassioned, fervent, furious, and 586 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: so that just kind of gets multiplied. I would we 587 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: need to pull back. Social media is a kind of 588 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: subgroup or whatever of the Internet, right, and in this 589 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 2: Internet age, and you know this, you're in media, and 590 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 2: you have a media company and all of that, there 591 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 2: are there's such a there's such an infinite buffet of 592 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: options available to those of us who are consuming information, 593 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: consuming news, that we go out there in a way 594 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: we couldn't in the past. I mean, when I was 595 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: growing up, if you want to watch TV news at night, 596 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: your choices were ABC, NBCCBS and maybe depending on where 597 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: you lived, PBS, and and they were all working under 598 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: the fairness doctrine, So there were restraints on how political 599 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: they could be, certainly how screechy they could be, and 600 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: they didn't fill that much airtime. You couldn't sit there 601 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: for hours listening to pundit after pundit tell you how 602 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: awful Donald Trump is, or conversely tell you what a 603 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: nightmare Kamala Harris is. Right now, we all get to 604 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: walk up to this buffet choose exactly what we want, 605 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: and no two people have the same diet, So no 606 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: two people are having their discussions or their disagreements based 607 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: on the same set of information. That is such an 608 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: extraordinary powerful engine for division. And I don't know how 609 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 2: we deal with that, but that is something that we 610 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: have only been dealing with for the past two decades 611 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: and has a lot to do with why this country 612 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: is in such a dysfunctional place. 613 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, people are creating their own ecosystems and echo chambers, 614 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: and as another friend of Mineset, they're getting affirmation, not information. 615 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and they become more certain of 616 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: their viewpoint rather than more elastic. They become less interested 617 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: in contrary opinions because they've been so assured that there's 618 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: this correct or. Just as in cities, and I see 619 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: this all the time, like I talk to students, how 620 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: have you set up your social media feed? Like where 621 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: are you getting your news? And I'm using them in 622 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: a representative sense in this A lot of them feel 623 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: like they're deeply engaged and deeply informed because there's a 624 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: lot of stuff they're consuming. But then when you ask 625 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: them to pause and look at what it is, it's 626 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: either all broccoli, or it's all roast chicken, or it's 627 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: all hot fudge. Sundays, they've gone up to that buffet 628 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: and they've filled their plate, but it's all with the 629 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 2: same thing in a way they don't always realize. And 630 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: I think one of the things we absolutely have to 631 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: do is look at the conversations we're having with children, 632 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: you know, at school age, but also at the kitchen table, 633 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: because I have found that if you kind of say them, well, 634 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: what's your goal in being an informed person? And their 635 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: goal isn't to be as monochromatically informed as they are. 636 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 2: It just kind of happens that way, right They human 637 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: nature has them gravitating to the things that make sense 638 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: to them. The algorithms then kick in and give them 639 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: more of that, and you know, they're busy with a 640 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: thousand things in their life, and before they know it, 641 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 2: they're living in this very, very sordid, narrow silo. But 642 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: they never really intended to be there. And so we 643 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: have to have a constant conversation about who are you 644 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 2: trying to be? What kind of informed citizen do you 645 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 2: want to be? And does your behavior do your consumption 646 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: habits align with that? 647 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: That's true, And I know my husband and I try 648 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: to turn to Fox when we're watching just to see 649 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: what different sides are saying about an issue, because I 650 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: want to understand how it's being framed by various organizations. 651 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: And similarly, I try to read different points of view 652 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: when I can. But disinformation and AI is going to 653 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: make this even tougher, Frank, Not only are we going 654 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: to have to try to have a varied point of 655 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: view or various sources in terms of the information we're getting, 656 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: but we're going to have to go the extra mile 657 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: to determine if it's even true. 658 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,959 Speaker 2: Yeah's and that's another conversation we have to be having 659 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: constantly with young people. We have to talk about. I mean, 660 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: the buzz phrase is media literacy, but it's an important 661 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: thing and I think it's creeping up on us, and 662 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: we just need to be very conscious of it and 663 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: kind of build it into education and instruction. 664 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: Maybe that can be your next book. 665 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: I'm sick. 666 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: Okay, maybe not. 667 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 2: I want to write. I want to write my next 668 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 2: book about my dog. That's really. 669 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Supreme Court because it's interesting you 670 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: talk about how the Supreme Court has even fallen prey 671 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: to this grievance culture. Can you talk about that? 672 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I mean it kind of blew my mind 673 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: because I mean, if you're thinking of people who have 674 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 2: a privileged perch and have a reason to kind of 675 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: float above it all you think in the Supreme Court, 676 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 2: and in fact, I mean it was never entirely true. 677 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 2: But our image of them, our stereotype is these are people. 678 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: They get appointed for life, they wear those black robes. 679 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: They they, among all of us, can kind of float 680 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 2: above the most base emotions. And I was blown away 681 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 2: after they overturned Roe v. Wade, a decision written by 682 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 2: Justice Alito. He had to know, you know, what a 683 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: cultural shock that would be, and he had to know 684 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: how upsetting that would be to many people. And that 685 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: doesn't mean it should influence what he does. His job 686 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: is to kind of follow what he thinks is right. 687 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: So I'm not taking issue with the decision in the 688 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 2: comment about I'm about to make. But he subsequently kind 689 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 2: of went out on the speaking circuit, was it? You know, 690 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 2: kind of black tie dinners and gab like speeches where 691 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: he talked like, you wouldn't believe how mean people are 692 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: being to all of us the way they talk about us. 693 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? I mean that, Hey, that's part 694 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 2: of your job, but b what did you think was 695 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: going to happen? And a Supreme Court justice singing a 696 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: song of woe is me? If even someone like that 697 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 2: is asking you to pity him or her as a 698 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 2: kind of victim of mean behavior, then this sort of 699 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 2: victim mentality has really kind of spread much, much, too 700 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 2: wide and far. 701 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: You also cite Clarence Thomas in your book and talk 702 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: about him. Did someone say something and talk about him 703 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: in his books? 704 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 2: His fan section over there? 705 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 1: How does he personify this age of grievance? 706 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: Well, his appearance in the book is more in terms 707 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 2: of his wife, Jenny. And if you go back and 708 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: you read the text messages that Jenny Thomas was sending 709 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: the Trump White House between November twenty twenty and January sixth, 710 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 2: twenty two, twenty one. I mean, first of all, it's 711 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: like all caps, it's exclamation points. When did we enter 712 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 2: this era where passion amounts to putting ten exclamation points 713 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 2: at the end of a sentence and capitalizing every other word, 714 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: which Donald Trump does. But if you look at the 715 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: tone of it, she seems to have genuinely convinced herself 716 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: that the country is being stolen from her. Ginny Thomas, 717 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 2: Supreme victim. 718 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: Why is this happening? Frank No, I mean, why is 719 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: all of this? Why are we in the midst of 720 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: an age of grievance? Tell me about all the forces 721 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: that are kind of colluding to create this environment. 722 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 2: Well, I can't take about all the forces because I 723 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 2: noticed the clock. We're moving on and that would be 724 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: like till midnight. But we've talked about are kind of 725 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 2: broken information ecosystem. That's an enormous part of it. I mean, 726 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 2: the political tribalism run amuck is another part of it. 727 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: But something we haven't talked about. The I also think 728 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 2: is really important is what I call the new American pessimism. 729 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: It has never been the case that we were as 730 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 2: expansively optimistic a country, as mythology has it. But I 731 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: think we were always a fundamentally optimistic country. You know, 732 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 2: in the legend and the reality of Ronald Reagan's political 733 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 2: assent in his political reign was you know, mourning in America, 734 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 2: the shining city on the hill. And you know, for 735 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: a while after Reagan, the truism among political strategists was 736 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 2: that the optimistic candidate one the one who says to you, 737 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: things are going to get better. Now it's almost flipped. 738 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 2: And if you look at I'll give you one example. 739 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 2: I have a lot of numbers in the book about 740 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 2: you know, surveys when you ask people do you think 741 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,479 Speaker 2: your children will do better than you did? That used 742 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 2: to it used to be a no brainer that a 743 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 2: majority of Americans would say yes. No longer, but I 744 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 2: mean a really good example is, for decades now, Gallup, 745 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: several times a year has been asking Americans are you 746 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 2: generally satisfied with the direction of the country or with 747 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 2: life in America? But I forget exactly how they word it, 748 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 2: And up until two thousand and four, more often than 749 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 2: not that number would be the generally satisfied number would 750 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 2: be above fifty percent, But it would go like this, 751 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 2: below fifty percent, back above fifty percent. Since twenty four, 752 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 2: twenty years running. Now it is never crested fifty percent. 753 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: It is most frequently in the twenties, thirties, or low forties. 754 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 2: It went down to I think eleven percent after the 755 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 2: January sixth riots, But twenty years running, we cannot get 756 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 2: to even a fifty point one percent majority of Americans 757 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: saying they're generally satisfied with life in this country. When 758 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 2: that happens, it's an enormous political problem because if you 759 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 2: no longer have any faith or belief that the pie 760 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: is expanding, you have a much different relationship to your 761 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 2: piece of it. You are much more possessive of it, 762 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 2: protective of it. You see yourself as in competition with 763 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 2: your fellow American rather than in collaboration with them. You 764 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: believe that somebody else winning means that you're losing, That 765 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 2: it's a zero sum game, and that creates an entirely 766 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 2: different civic environment than what is the ideal one. 767 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: But are there legitimate reasons for that pessimism? Frank, are 768 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: there reasons that people are not feeling satisfied? 769 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 2: Sure, there are legitimate reasons, but it becomes a self 770 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,959 Speaker 2: fulfilling prophecy. And there are also reasons for optimism. I mean, 771 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 2: we seem to be trying our hardest to fuck it up, 772 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 2: but we live in a wonderful country. No we do. 773 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 2: I mean we are, you know. And Barack Obama said 774 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: it very eloquently in a second term. I think it 775 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 2: was in a speech in Hannover, Germany, if I remember, 776 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 2: it's in the book. But you know, he was nearing 777 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: the end of his presidency, so he was less frequently 778 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: trying to do what all politicians try to do and 779 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 2: score political points, and in a kind of reflective moment, 780 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 2: he said, you know, we have a lot of problems, 781 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 2: and we spend a lot of time just doing about 782 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 2: them and sometimes screaming about them. But if you could choose, 783 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 2: if you had to choose to be alive at any 784 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 2: point in history and at any place in history, you 785 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: would do no better than right now being an America 786 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: can in the United States of America. And that doesn't 787 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 2: mean we should be complacent, and it doesn't mean that 788 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: we don't have hideous injustices, and it doesn't mean we 789 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: turn a blind eye to them. But it has to 790 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 2: be part of our awareness and conversation. Otherwise we're not 791 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 2: living in truth, and we're dooming ourselves to the future 792 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: we don't want by believing in so little, by by 793 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 2: having so little optimism and having so little faith in 794 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 2: the future. 795 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: There was one statistic that you share in the book 796 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: by Gene Twangy, who I know, who I've interviewed several times. 797 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: She's what would you say as social social psychologists? 798 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of an expert on young people and their 799 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 2: interactions with technology. 800 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: Right, and generational shifts and how different generations see the world. 801 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: She told you that when asked whether they believe that 802 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: the founders of the United States are better described as 803 00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: heroes or as villains, forty percent of gen Z respondents 804 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: said villains. 805 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: Right. 806 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: How do you make sense of that finding? 807 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's easy to make sense that finding. 808 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: We spend a lot of time in schools these days 809 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 2: talking about the racism, the sexism, et cetera of the 810 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 2: founding fathers, and all of that is true, and to 811 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 2: a certain extent, it's appropriate, and it's a good idea. 812 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 2: But to a certain extent is the important phrase there. 813 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 2: They were living in a different time and if we 814 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 2: apply the moral yardsticks of today to you know, two 815 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 2: hundred three hundred years ago. You know, it's just not 816 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,439 Speaker 2: the right way to measure things. But I just think 817 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 2: it's a problem when you feel that darkly about your 818 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 2: own country. I just don't think it's a smart strategy. 819 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 2: And what she talked about when she cited that statistic 820 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: in the interview I did with her for the book, 821 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 2: she talked about how starkly that contrast with what baby 822 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 2: boomers say, and it's part of a of a yawning 823 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 2: generational divide. 824 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: Right now, I feel like heroes or villains, there should 825 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: be some middle word right, right, blowed, right, blawed, but 826 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: not villains. 827 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 2: No, And we need to be kind of measured and 828 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 2: balanced in the attention we pay. And another person who's 829 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 2: interviewed at some length in the book is Representative Rocanna, 830 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 2: who's a Democrat in Congress who represents the Silicon Valley, 831 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 2: and he said he's constantly like in meetings with other 832 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 2: Democrats saying, how come when we go on TV none 833 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 2: of us ever say anything positive about the country. Why 834 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,359 Speaker 2: are we always talking about all the ways in which 835 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 2: the country is failing. We need to talk about that, 836 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 2: but to talk only about that is to create a 837 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 2: kind of psychology and darkness in people that comes back 838 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 2: at us in all the scrievance. 839 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: And it doesn't enrage people, and it doesn't make them 840 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: feel this visceral anger that keeps them connected to the 841 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: media they're consuming. Nobody wants to read nice stories, Frank, 842 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: You know that. 843 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 2: I do, and you know, I think a lot of 844 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 2: us in the media we find ourselves writing one nice 845 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 2: story and then reverting to another kind of story less 846 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 2: we lose our entire audience, right, which is not a 847 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 2: great way, but at least we occasionally do the nice stories. 848 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 2: I do think we have to try harder, and sometimes 849 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 2: it is at brief economic sacrifice in the media to 850 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 2: write more stories that give people solutions rather than just 851 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: an inventory of the problems. There's a lot of kind 852 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: of good research coming out about news avoidance, and you 853 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 2: are right, the people who stay with the news tend 854 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 2: to click on the things that are angriest, you know, 855 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 2: and most upsetting. But there are also all these people 856 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 2: who have left the news entirely because they can't take 857 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 2: it anymore. 858 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: There is a lot of grievance on college campuses these days, 859 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: and that's hitting very noticed. Are you doing news avoidance rank? 860 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think about what is unfolding 861 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: and how it fits in to the thesis of your book. 862 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's not every college campus, and 863 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 2: even on the college campuses where it's happening, it's not 864 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,040 Speaker 2: the majority of students. And I do worry that a 865 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 2: lot of Americans don't understand that because one of the 866 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 2: things I've seen happen with the campus protest story over 867 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 2: the last couple of months, weeks and days is various 868 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 2: outside political actors. And I don't mean the outside agitators 869 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 2: occupying buildings, that there's those people too, but I mean 870 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 2: various outside actors, people in congress, people in public life, 871 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 2: take their larger rivalries, their larger battles, and they impose 872 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 2: them on this and say this illustrates my point in X, 873 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 2: Y or Z way, and they make it much bigger 874 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 2: than it has to be, and I think they inflame it. 875 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 2: And that's the main thing that I'm noticing and taking 876 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 2: away from it, which is, yes, it is about a 877 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 2: very particular thing. It is about the Israel Hamas war 878 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 2: and things that are going on in the Middle East. Yes, 879 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 2: it is very much in a tradition of student protest, 880 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,839 Speaker 2: and that is something in and of itself, but it 881 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 2: also I think reflects and is fed by a habit 882 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 2: in this country among people in public life that people 883 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 2: are supposed to model how we should behave to take 884 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 2: every situation and turn it up to the highest temperature possible, 885 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 2: to bring it to full boil for whatever their political 886 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 2: purposes are. And I think we're seeing some of that 887 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 2: play out on campuses too, or encourage what's going on. 888 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: The book is the Age of Grievance. Frank Bruney, Thank 889 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: you so much, Thank you much, Thanks everyone, Thanks for 890 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,360 Speaker 1: listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a 891 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,840 Speaker 1: subject you want us to cover, or you want to 892 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world 893 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six 894 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: oh nine five P one two five five five, or 895 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would 896 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production 897 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, 898 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, 899 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian 900 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 901 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, 902 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit 903 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 904 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 905 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 906 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,