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Speaker 1: Murder in Miami is a production of iHeartRadio previously on

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Speaker 1: Murder in Miami.

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Speaker 2: Miami had become the murder capital of the United States.

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Speaker 2: I would categorize it as the wild wild West. Every

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Speaker 2: day somebody was getting shot, murdered, robbed.

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Speaker 3: Does anybody that crossed the cartails and any white that

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Speaker 3: gets killed? Everybody that was home down at the end.

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Speaker 4: Of the bar.

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Speaker 2: There's this guy nds me. His card says Clay Williams.

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Speaker 2: Intercept Detective Agency.

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Speaker 4: About two weeks.

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Speaker 2: Later, got a call from Bob Adams, he's president of Intercept,

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Speaker 2: and he said they found Clay. And so I go

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Speaker 2: down Miami Dade Sheriff's office. At a certain point, they

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Speaker 2: start pulling out pictures of Clay Williams's body, polaroids taken

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Speaker 2: out in the Everglades and he's just he's a skeleton.

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Speaker 2: And I tell him I think I might be responsible

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Speaker 2: for the death. They said, look, you're involved with some

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Speaker 2: dangerous people here. And I report back to Bob. I

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Speaker 2: call and tell them what I found out. They said,

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Speaker 2: good work, good work, and so that was sort of

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Speaker 2: my first job.

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Speaker 1: For Intercept as a private detective.

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Speaker 2: As a newspaper reporter, slash private detective.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's October of nineteen eighty one, and Phil Stamford

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Speaker 1: is basically moved into the job. Clay Williams murder has vacated,

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Speaker 1: a murder he still believes he may have caused. As

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Speaker 1: a result, Stanford's compelled to pay his respects by attending

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Speaker 1: the deceased man's memorial service. All in all, it's an

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Speaker 1: awkward situation.

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Speaker 2: It was a strange funeral anyway, in a large sort

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Speaker 2: of double wide trailer alongside Dixie Highway, and I got

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Speaker 2: the feeling that some sort of fly by night preacher

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Speaker 2: was conducting the ceremony. Boy, I wish I had a

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Speaker 2: record of the ceremony, because it was all about the

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Speaker 2: preacher wondering how God could allow something like this as

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Speaker 2: awful as this to happen. And standing in the back

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Speaker 2: end of the trailer were about four or five very

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Speaker 2: big guys, obviously detectives from the Sheriff's officer Miami Police.

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Speaker 2: Big guys, I mean like six ' five sixty six,

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Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty pounds or more, wearing sports coats

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Speaker 2: and suits and sort of smiling. They were there to

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Speaker 2: send a message.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Bright, Pacheco and this is murder in Miami.

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Speaker 1: So at this point are you still working for the newspaper?

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Speaker 2: Well sort of, but remember I was expecting to get

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Speaker 2: fired about this time, and after my visit with the detectives,

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Speaker 2: Bob said he might have something for me. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it must have been shortly after the funeral that I

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Speaker 2: sort of stopped going into the paper.

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Speaker 4: Ruth and I broke up. We were still.

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Speaker 2: Friends, though, I think, and I moved to Miami Beach,

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Speaker 2: which wasn't anything like it is today. I mean at

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Speaker 2: the time it was all pensioners and Mary Alita's completely

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Speaker 2: run down. Tourists just didn't go there anymore. I got

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Speaker 2: a room at the Cardozo, which was on Ocean Drive

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Speaker 2: right across from the beach, one hundred and ninety dollars

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Speaker 2: a month.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's a good deal.

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Speaker 2: I doubt that you could find a place for one

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Speaker 2: night in Miami Beach at those rates anymore.

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Speaker 1: Situated at thirteenth in Ocean Drive in South Beach's Art

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Speaker 1: Deco district, Today, the Cordoza Hotel has been updated to

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Speaker 1: surpass even its former glory, but at the time Stamford

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Speaker 1: was staying there, it was a shabby she hipster hangout

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Speaker 1: for artists, writers, and other creative sorts, many of whom

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Speaker 1: sparred with witty banter on its legendary porch, hoping to

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Speaker 1: make and leave their marks. Stanford already had access to

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Speaker 1: the scene through an artsy and intellectual Bohemian couple by

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Speaker 1: the last name of Rothchild.

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Speaker 2: Oh Yeah, John and Susan Rothchild. They were friends of

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Speaker 2: friends in DC. John was a writer and very sharp guy,

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Speaker 2: and Susan, a beautiful woman, was a former New York socialite.

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Speaker 2: Her father had owned the twenty one Club in New

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Speaker 2: York City and turned hippie, and she and John had

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Speaker 2: taken up together shortly before they landed in Miami Beach.

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Speaker 2: They had a nice place in Miami Beach. They became

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Speaker 2: good friends, and I saw a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of them too.

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Speaker 1: John Rothchild passed away a few years back, leaving behind

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Speaker 1: an impressive array of books and compelling magazine articles. His

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Speaker 1: New York Times obituary cited him as a prolific journalist

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Speaker 1: who used humor to turn books about personal finance into

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Speaker 1: engaging reads. His widow, Susan shares that with here's her

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Speaker 1: outgoing voicemail message, Hi.

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Speaker 3: If I'm not answering the phone right now. It's because

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Speaker 3: I can't find my phone, and as soon as I

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Speaker 3: find it, I'll call you back bye.

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Speaker 1: When we connected, I passed along Phil's praise of both

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Speaker 1: her intellect and stunning beauty.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was, anyway, at eighty three out of us. Dummy,

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Speaker 3: I am unless I hit someone over the head to stumble.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, here's her take on Phil during his Cordoza

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Speaker 1: Porch days.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't actually my type, but he was attractive looking

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Speaker 3: and smart. I would say I found it very simpatico.

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Speaker 3: He was slightly brash, but he was very also involved.

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Speaker 3: He had two adorable children, and it was very good

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Speaker 3: with them. He was a very good single father.

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Speaker 1: I think Phil's boys would visit from Oregon when their

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Speaker 1: school breaks permitted.

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Speaker 3: They were sort of our kids' age, and so we

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Speaker 3: all hung out together. It was very easy.

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Speaker 1: I recently read an article that Jack McClintock had written

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Speaker 1: about life on the Porch of the Cordoza Cardozo. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of glamorized the circle of writers, including

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Speaker 1: your husband and Phil.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they had fun and they were very involved in

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Speaker 3: peripheral daring do.

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Speaker 1: The article I'm referring to originally appeared in Marquee magazine

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Speaker 1: and described the Cordoza as a place where that daring

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Speaker 1: do rose to the most random of rivalries, including one

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Speaker 1: for ugliest Hawaiian shirt. The author Jack McClintock thought he'd

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Speaker 1: won that competition until he wrote.

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Speaker 5: Phil Stanford, who was a surfer in Hawaii for a

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Speaker 5: couple of years before he began writing for the New

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Speaker 5: York Times magazine and being a political activist and the

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Speaker 5: private detective and country songwriter and all the other things

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Speaker 5: he was. Stanford started showing up wearing an entire series

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Speaker 5: of sleazy Hawaiian print shirts, for which he claimed to

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Speaker 5: have paid exactly a dollar seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: Apiece For the record, Phil denies the country music allegation.

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Speaker 1: McClintock goes on to write.

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Speaker 5: Stanford thought he'd won hands down, and would have if

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Speaker 5: it hadn't been for John Rothschild. John's nonfiction about Florida

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Speaker 5: is as wise and wry as John D. McDonald's fiction

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Speaker 5: about the same subject.

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Speaker 1: According to his wife, Susan. For a time, John Rothschild

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Speaker 1: focused on the more dangerous aspects of Miami, including drug

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Speaker 1: smuggling and organized crime. When we talk about the lawlessness

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Speaker 1: the wild West feel, Phil mentioned that there was at

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Speaker 1: the time there was a traffic incident and one guy

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Speaker 1: got out and started shooting, and the other guy got

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Speaker 1: out of his car and started shooting. Was that a

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Speaker 1: part of your reality there?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, we were driving There's an Italian restaurant named

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Speaker 3: Austria Osteria Deloso.

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Speaker 4: We were with.

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Speaker 3: Sasha, who must have been nine or ten, in the car,

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Speaker 3: and there were police outside. I said, oh, look, they

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Speaker 3: must be shooting a movie. She said, no, they're not

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Speaker 3: shooting a movie. That's a crime scene. And she was

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Speaker 3: right because in the next day in the papers, to

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Speaker 3: turn out the chef had been killed in that restaurant.

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Speaker 3: Now how that nine year old knew, you know, growing

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Speaker 3: up on Miami Beach.

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Speaker 1: Back to Phil and his days at the Cordoza.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then there was my cop friend JD, who I'd

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Speaker 2: met while I was still working at the News. He'd

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Speaker 2: stopped by in street close of course, because he usually

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Speaker 2: worked undercover, park his motorcycle out front and come up

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Speaker 2: on the porch and talk.

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Speaker 1: What was he like, JD?

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Speaker 2: He was a tough boy, ex Special Forces in Vietna,

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Speaker 2: and his job with Miami Dade Sheriff's Office was felony Warrens,

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Speaker 2: which means he had to bring in the guys who

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Speaker 2: were running from the law, who jumped bail, and.

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Speaker 4: Usually pretty dangerous people.

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Speaker 2: So he'd go into the roughest parts of Miami, put

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Speaker 2: a gun to the fugitive head, and bring them out

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Speaker 2: by himself. He said that if he worked alone, because

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Speaker 2: if you worked with a partner, you might get yourself killed.

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Speaker 2: When I tell JD about Intercept, he sort of smiles

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Speaker 2: and says it sounds kind of hinky to him, which

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Speaker 2: was cop talk at the time for suspicious or illegal.

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Speaker 1: Naturally, I think this is very cool, perhaps a bit

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Speaker 1: enamored by the danger and the sense of adventure. Stanford

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Speaker 1: was all too willing to dive into the new role

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Speaker 1: of private investigator by tackling the next assignment Intercept, and

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Speaker 1: Bob Adams tossed his way.

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Speaker 4: The first job was a surveillance job.

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Speaker 2: He wanted me to follow a doctor who's getting divorced.

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Speaker 2: The wife had hired them for some reason, it never

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Speaker 2: clear to me. She wanted to know what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Bob had me do this, he said, the doctor's going

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Speaker 2: to be picking up the two little boys must have

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Speaker 2: been at the mother's house at this address tomorrow night.

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Speaker 2: Just follow and see where they go. Why the wife

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Speaker 2: would have wanted to know this, I have no idea,

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Speaker 2: but the house was sort of at the bottom of

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Speaker 2: a hill. I parked up the hill, looking down towards

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Speaker 2: the house. It's already dark, and lights came on in

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Speaker 2: the front porch. A man and two little boys came

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Speaker 2: out in the lights, walked towards his car and started

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Speaker 2: to get in, and I started to get nervous they

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Speaker 2: get away before I wouldn't be able to keep up

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Speaker 2: with them. So I started the car, which turned on

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Speaker 2: the lights right away and sort of blasted them with light.

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Speaker 2: And one of the kids said, Daddy, Daddy, someone's following us.

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Speaker 2: That was my first job, and I was an utter

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Speaker 2: failure at it. I was discovered by eight year old

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Speaker 2: I just sort of slunk off, let the car roll down,

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Speaker 2: turned off the first left I could, and that was that.

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Speaker 2: The next morning went into Bob and I told him

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Speaker 2: what had happened. I said, Bob, I'm sorry. He said, oh,

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Speaker 2: don't worry about it. Don't worry about it, and laughed,

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Speaker 2: he has had this giggle. And he pulled out a

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Speaker 2: roll of bills turned out to be hundreds, all hundreds,

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Speaker 2: and he started peeling them off for me. I think

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Speaker 2: I peeled off five hundreds, and he said, good work.

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Speaker 4: I'll let you know what. I have another job for you.

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Speaker 1: If being handsomely rewarded for his ineptitude did strike Stamford

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Speaker 1: his odd, he didn't let it keep him from taking

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Speaker 1: on another job with Intercept.

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Speaker 2: Days later he had another job. It was the same

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Speaker 2: doctor again, and this time I was smarter. I followed

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Speaker 2: the doctor. He had a sports car. I think they

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Speaker 2: had a Porsche. A decent interval to an apartment building.

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Speaker 2: A young lady came out of the apartment building, got

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Speaker 2: in his car, followed them to a motel, sort of

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Speaker 2: a CD motel on the outskirts of Miami. And after

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Speaker 2: they parked. It was late in the afternoon, almost dusk.

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Speaker 2: I pulled into the same parking lot at the other

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Speaker 2: end of the parking lot and waited.

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Speaker 4: And waited, and.

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Speaker 2: Next thing I know, someone is tapping on my window

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Speaker 2: with a coin or something, shouting, wake up, asshole.

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Speaker 1: So you fell asleep on the job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And when I look out the windshield. The doctor's

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Speaker 2: car has gone and there is JD grinning at me.

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Speaker 2: He says, don't worry, I'm not going to get you fire.

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Speaker 2: So we go to an all night diner and he

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Speaker 2: clues me in, and what he tells me is the

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Speaker 2: best he can figure out. I'm just there to handle

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Speaker 2: the stuff that comes in from the Yellow Pages so

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Speaker 2: the rest of the guys can tend to the real business,

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Speaker 2: which is making the real money, which was the drug business.

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Speaker 2: Of course, this is Miami, and so I go in

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Speaker 2: the next morning to apologize, and Bob does the same

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Speaker 2: thing as before. It says, don't worry about it. The

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Speaker 2: main thing is we can tell his old lady that

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Speaker 2: her husband and his girlfriend went to the motel. That's

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Speaker 2: all she cares about, just wants something to be pissed

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Speaker 2: off about. And then he peels off another five one

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Speaker 2: hundred dollar belts, at which point I say, hey, Bob,

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Speaker 2: now that's really generous of you, but just so you know,

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Speaker 2: I do understand what my job here is, and that's

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Speaker 2: to handle the stuff that comes in from the yellow pages,

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Speaker 2: because you guys are too busy with other matters, right,

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Speaker 2: And he looks at me does sort of a double take,

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Speaker 2: and then he laughs and peels off another couple hundred

244
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Speaker 2: or so, says, let's go get a couple of drinks,

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Speaker 2: and this time you're buying, And just like that, I'm

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Speaker 2: one of the guys.

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Speaker 1: What was going through your head? So obviously your first

248
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Speaker 1: two assignments weren't exactly home runs. Yet you're making a

249
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Speaker 1: ton of money, a ton of money given the time,

250
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Speaker 1: particularly cash.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I thought it was a great job.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no matter what I did, I got paid

253
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Speaker 2: very well, and I got to hang around talking with

254
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Speaker 2: these guys who had great stories.

255
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Speaker 4: They'd talk about their adventures and so take me into that.

256
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Speaker 1: On top of being an investigation firm, it was staffed

257
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Speaker 1: with some really charismatic, intriguing guys. Just tell me a

258
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Speaker 1: little bit about stepping into that world.

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Speaker 2: That was the payoff for me. I didn't that much

260
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Speaker 2: about the money. They were willing to talk, and the

261
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 2: people who've lived lives like that really have a lot

262
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Speaker 2: of stories and they want to talk about other people

263
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 2: don't understand how unusual their lives are.

264
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Speaker 1: Sometimes, especially it would seem the head of Intercept, Bob Adams.

265
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Speaker 2: Bob loved to talk and since I was no longer

266
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Speaker 2: in the journalism business. A boy did have some stories

267
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Speaker 2: to tell. It turns out all the top guys that

268
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Speaker 2: intercept had been in military intelligence or the CIA.

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Speaker 4: Bob had been with.

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Speaker 2: A military intelligence unit in Frankfurt, Germany that he said

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Speaker 2: provided logistical support for professional assassins working for the United States.

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Speaker 2: Another guy on the board had been the CIA station

273
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Speaker 2: chief in Miami during the Bay of Pigs time.

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Speaker 1: So what was the tie between the Central Intelligence Agency

275
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Speaker 1: and Miami, Cuba, and in particular the CIA's secret war

276
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Speaker 1: to outs Fidel Castro. In fact, the CIA's largest outpost

277
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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was the infamous

278
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Speaker 1: JM wave station at the University of Miami campus. The

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00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 1: operation left many former agents in the region with some

280
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: pretty interesting resumes in the nineteen eighties. Did Williams have

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Speaker 1: a military background too or intelligence?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they said that Clay Williams, whose spot I guess

283
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Speaker 2: you could say I took the detective Agency, had been

284
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Speaker 2: with military intelligence.

285
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Speaker 1: If you were involved with the front end stuff, the

286
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 1: sort of business they get from calls on the Yellow Pages.

287
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 1: What were the military intelligence guys doing with anything that

288
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 1: had to do with drugs For the most part.

289
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Speaker 4: That was really above my pay grade.

290
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Speaker 2: But Bob did tell me one story about the time

291
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 2: he and a couple of the guys had to go

292
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Speaker 2: up to Georgia to clean.

293
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Speaker 4: Some moldy money.

294
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 2: Not launder money, but clean some money that had been

295
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 2: stored underground so long that it.

296
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 4: Was getting moldy.

297
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 2: Bob said he cleaned it mostly in a washer dryer,

298
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 2: and that he got one tenth of all they were

299
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 2: able to salvage.

300
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: What was in Georgia. Why did he have to go

301
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 1: to Georgia to clean money?

302
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, sure, That's where Lamar was, Lamar Chester.

303
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 2: And it was no big secret at all that their

304
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 2: biggest client at the time was this dashing dope pilot

305
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,359
Speaker 2: by the name of Lamar Chester.

306
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 1: So who was Lamar Chester to interceptor Bob Adams.

307
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: To Bob, Lamar was a legend among dope pilots, one

308
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 2: of the first to start flying marijuana directly from Colombia.

309
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,880
Speaker 2: He had an island in the Bahamas that was sort

310
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 2: of a motel six for dope pilots making the run

311
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Speaker 2: from South America. Lamar gotten into the business in Miami,

312
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 2: but his home base was now a chicken ranch up

313
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Speaker 2: in northern Georgia.

314
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Speaker 4: That's where he was flying into.

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Speaker 1: Now, in such an infamous era of drug smuggling, what

316
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 1: made Chester stand out?

317
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 2: Bob was fascinated by Lamore. He said his nickname was

318
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 2: Captain America. He thought he looked like the Marlborough Man,

319
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: and he said when you saw him, he usually had

320
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: a girl on each arm.

321
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,919
Speaker 1: So, if Chester was involved with drug smuggling, an intercept

322
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 1: was involved with Chester. Did you ever stop to think

323
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: that that might have played a role in Clay Williams murder?

324
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Speaker 2: If I did, I didn't spend too much time thinking

325
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 2: about it. It was a place I didn't really really

326
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 2: want to.

327
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Speaker 1: Go, I guess, or maybe it was intentionally rationalized.

328
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Speaker 6: Yeah.

329
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Speaker 2: Well, the way Bob explained it to me was that

330
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Speaker 2: Clay was sort of a facilitator. He'd hang out of

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Speaker 2: the Prime Pub and used the payphone on the wall.

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Speaker 4: Remember this was.

333
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Speaker 2: Well before the day of cell phones, and he'd connect

334
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 2: suppliers with pilots, or say, set up pilots with offload cruise.

335
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 2: The way Bob explained it, just about every bar in

336
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 2: Miami catered to a particular level of the drug trade,

337
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 2: and the Prime Pub for example, was sort of mid level,

338
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 2: but exactly what Clay Williams was doing they got him.

339
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Speaker 4: Killed, If that's what it was. Bob never told me

340
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 4: and I never asked.

341
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 1: But didn't you think it was odd that here you

342
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: are working for a private investigation firm and they didn't

343
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,160
Speaker 1: seem too interested in figuring out who had killed one

344
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,880
Speaker 1: of their employees or why? I mean, did you ever

345
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 1: stop to think that maybe you could end up dead too?

346
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 4: I was it a.

347
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 2: Place in my life where I really didn't care about this.

348
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Speaker 2: I think I was the only one I knew at

349
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Speaker 2: that time. He didn't carry a gun, which is probably

350
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 2: why no one shot at me. But I remember one

351
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 2: time going into Bob Adams and I said, Bob, I

352
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,639
Speaker 2: got a threat. He said, oh, don't worry about the

353
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 2: ones you hear. And I was happy for the job.

354
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: Okay. But back to Clay Williams, there was no further

355
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: attempt to find out who killed him.

356
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, other than the initial dog and pony show of

357
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 2: driving me around after Clay was killed.

358
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Speaker 1: So it didn't concern you at all that your new

359
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: place of employment seemed caught up in sketchy, dangerous drug

360
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: related activities.

361
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: No, and to tell the truth, I actually thought it

362
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 2: was kind of cool, just what I was looking for

363
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 2: when I came to Miami. But I've got to say

364
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 2: that even at the time, dumb as I was, I

365
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: was at least smart enough to know that there's some

366
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 2: things you don't ask questions about, and Clay Williams's death

367
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: was probably one of them.

368
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: What about now and now?

369
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's certainly one of the things about this story

370
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 2: I'd like to get to the bottom of.

371
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: When I started scouring newspaper archives for any mention of

372
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: Williams either missing or being found, there was nothing which

373
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: immediately struck me as odd, especially if he were former

374
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,719
Speaker 1: military intelligence. Since Phil had what he believed was his

375
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: full name.

376
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: Clay had slightly unusual names. It was Baines Clayton Williams.

377
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: His date of birth, and that he was originally from

378
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: North Carolina. I'd put in a formal request for any

379
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 1: existing records with the Miami Dade Police Department on January

380
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: fifth of twenty twenty two, explaining I was hoping to

381
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,959
Speaker 1: track down the police report on the murdered private investigator

382
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: from Miami whose body was found in the Everglades in

383
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 1: October of nineteen eighty one. In the meantime, Phil searched

384
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: the archives of old newspapers.

385
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 2: The one thing I was able to find was an

386
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: obituary for Clay's mother, who died in twenty eleven in Charlotte,

387
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: North Carolina, and it listed her living sons and her

388
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 2: predeceased son, Baines Clayton Williams. And what turned out to

389
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 2: be really important because the surviving children of her deceased

390
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 2: son and their names were listed there.

391
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: How many children did he have?

392
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 4: He had had four kids.

393
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 1: Next, we tracked down Clay's wedding announcement to a woman

394
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 1: named Sandra.

395
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: They were both young, a short announcement from the Charlotte paper.

396
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: They were married in nineteen sixty one June of nineteen

397
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: sixty one, and Clay was working at some electrical company.

398
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,719
Speaker 2: She was working at a store. Very pretty girl. They

399
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: must have been a handsome couple.

400
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: Using the names of the couple's children, I was able

401
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: to do a reverse search of known relatives. After a

402
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: series of dead ends and disconnected numbers, I called Phil

403
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: with an update. I think I actually found Sandra. I

404
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: ended up calling the house that had her name listed. Also,

405
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: the man who I believe was her second husband, and

406
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: he answered and unfortunately she passed away five years ago.

407
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: But he was very open to my questions. He explained

408
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: that it really remains a cold case as far as

409
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: the family's concerned, that they never had any true answers

410
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: as to who murdered Clay or why. But he was

411
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: willing to link me with one of Clay's daughters, and

412
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: she ended up returning my phone call, and so I

413
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: spoke to her, and she also mentioned the large guys

414
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: at the funeral that you mentioned seeing, who you believe

415
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: were detectives.

416
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 4: How old was she then?

417
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 1: She would have been eight when her father passed. There

418
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: were four kids. Her older sister was twelve. She has

419
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: a twin sister who was also eight, and then there

420
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: was the youngest child. Her little brother was just two

421
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: months old when his father disappeared and ended up murdered.

422
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 6: I have a.

423
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 2: Vague recollection of the mother holding that baby at a funeral.

424
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. She also says that her father's car was found

425
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: shortly after he disappeared in Texas, and that the car

426
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: was found laden with drugs. Had you heard of that?

427
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: No, that's news to me. What conclusions did she draw

428
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 4: from that, you know.

429
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: She was very pragmatic about it. She said that she

430
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: didn't think that her father was linked to what they

431
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: found in the car, but then again, this was the

432
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and Miami.

433
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 6: Indeed it was.

434
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: Eventually, Clay's daughter linked me with her elder sister, who

435
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: was also willing to speak with me, but not to

436
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: be interviewed. She did, though, suggest I reach out to

437
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: a couple named Ted and Roseanne, who were close friends

438
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: of her parents. Here's Ted.

439
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 6: How I met Clay was through an associate of mine

440
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 6: at work who knew Clay from the military, introduced me

441
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 6: to Clay. I don't know how Clay got to be

442
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 6: to Miami, but I think he was looking for a

443
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 6: place to raise his children. He had three girls, and

444
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 6: he wanted to start a new life.

445
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: And Clay made an immediate impression, just as he had

446
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: on Phil and Ruth in that bar in Parne when

447
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: he handed them his card.

448
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 6: He was good looking, tall, he was taller than six feet.

449
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 6: He was lanky, very charming, nice smile, quick to laugh,

450
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 6: always good humored, very much a family man.

451
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: Family was what instantly connected the two men.

452
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 6: We used together together with Clay and his family and

453
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 6: He was a very family oriented person, easy spoken and

454
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 6: charming to be around. We had a lot of fun

455
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 6: together whenever we were together for barbecues, help each other

456
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 6: around the house. We all had homes needed to repair,

457
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 6: one type or another. I remember working on Clay's house

458
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 6: one time, painting it, and we just got to know

459
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 6: the families and we're just associated in that way. Just

460
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 6: pure family relationships. Very handsome family, pretty wife.

461
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: Their wives also became very close friends, and though Ted

462
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: had an important job with the government employment agency, they

463
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: didn't spend too much time talking about their professional lives.

464
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 6: Never talked to any business. Really. I knew what Clay did.

465
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 6: I knew he was a private investigator, and that's as

466
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 6: far as I went in terms of knowing what kind

467
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 6: of work he did.

468
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: Did you ever get the chance to visit Clay at Intercept,

469
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: the agency in Parne where he worked as a private investigator.

470
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 6: Yeah. I was on an errand with Clay. He asked

471
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 6: me to ride with him someplace I don't pick up something,

472
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 6: maybe for the house, I don't remember right now, but

473
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 6: he said I have to stop offer at the office.

474
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 6: You want to come up?

475
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 4: I said sure.

476
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 6: He introduced me to Bob Adams and another fellow there.

477
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: And I had.

478
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 6: Understood from Clay that these were former intelligence people from

479
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 6: the federal government, whether it's CIA, army intelligence, they were

480
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 6: all associated. I think that's how Clay got to know

481
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 6: these people through the army and intelligence contacts. And I

482
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 6: was up there for a few minutes, looked around, and

483
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 6: it was a nice office, and they had what I

484
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 6: thought was an awfully large computer set up. You know,

485
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 6: it wasn't at that time anything that I've ever seen

486
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 6: in a small office. These weren't laptops us like what

487
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 6: today would be described as service in other words, that's

488
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 6: where all the main memory was contained. And no more

489
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 6: than that.

490
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: You worked for a government agency, how would you compare

491
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: the technology of that computer compared to what you had

492
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: at your office.

493
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 6: Most government offices have a desktop and a little serve

494
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 6: on the bottom. But this thing was, I mean to

495
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 6: describe it close to Xerox machine at that time, you know,

496
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 6: one of these heavy duty office machines. It was that

497
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 6: kind of setup. Clay said, this was their computer system.

498
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 6: I just was impressed that such a small office would

499
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 6: have such a an enormous setup for computers.

500
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: And at the time because of the size of the

501
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: computer that would be directly in keeping with its capability,

502
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: so it would have been advanced and expensive at the time.

503
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 6: I would imagine him. You know, you usually see those

504
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 6: in movies today where they could access almost anything as

505
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 6: they do in the movies. I don't know what these

506
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 6: guys accessed on that computer, but I'm sure it was

507
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 6: more than what a citizen could attain on a home

508
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 6: computer or an office computer.

509
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: The computer capabilities of the agency stuck out to ted,

510
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: but there was nothing that stuck out as odd in

511
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: terms of Clay's job. Did he ever give you any

512
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: indication that he was worried about his safety or involved

513
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: with people who could be dangerous, No intercept.

514
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 6: With their backgrounds. Were probably doing very sophisticated investigations on

515
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 6: the side for the government. That was my impression. Not

516
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 6: that they were involved in any of the local drug

517
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 6: business that was rampant in Miami at the time.

518
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: I never suspected that, and if that were the case,

519
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: Clay probably wouldn't have brought you to his place of work.

520
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 6: Well. I was quite happy with his employers over there.

521
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 6: They seem to have a good ripport. When I went

522
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 6: up to the office, and there was nothing sinister about

523
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 6: the place at all.

524
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: But Intercept was a fairly new job for Clay. Correct.

525
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, he lived in Carolinas and he came into Miami.

526
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 6: He would have I don't know where he would have

527
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 6: known them from outside of Miami.

528
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: And there was nothing about Clay's lifestyle that would suggest

529
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: he was enjoying the lucrative benefits and a legal source

530
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: of income would afford. Remember, the group of friends rotated

531
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: home maintenance projects to save money, and that lack of

532
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: money was also apparent when Clay's widow was left with

533
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: four kids, one of them a newborn.

534
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 6: There was no money. She went to work. She had

535
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 6: to go to work. I mean, they depended on Clay's

536
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 6: income for everything, and.

537
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: So they weren't stockpiling money anywhere.

538
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 6: God No, Sandra had to go back to work as

539
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 6: soon as she could. She worked as a legal secretary.

540
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 6: She needed to support to support her family. I believe

541
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 6: she got some benefits from Social Security as a widows

542
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 6: with children or something like that, but that was certain

543
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 6: that didn't cover her expenses at the house and kids

544
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 6: in school and stuff like that.

545
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: So Clay wasn't making a notable income at the time

546
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: immediately before his death, which was also unnotable, at least

547
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: in terms of the media coverage. There wasn't press attention

548
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: to his disappearance.

549
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 6: No, no, there was nothing in the press. Why well,

550
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 6: I guess there were other stories. He had to remember.

551
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 6: Miami at that time was a wild town, and we

552
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 6: never saw anything in the press about it. I don't

553
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 6: even think there was an obituary column about Clay.

554
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were or how you first

555
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: learned that Clay's body had been found.

556
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, we were sitting with Sondra and maybe that's when

557
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 6: the police came in and informed her they found the

558
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 6: remains in the Everglades and suspected it was Clay, and

559
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 6: then they did some forensic work on the remains and

560
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 6: confirmed that it was Clay. But at that time I said, oh,

561
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 6: that can't be right. I always felt now, but he's

562
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 6: going to walk in because this is who Clay is.

563
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 6: He's very family oriented and half the time when you

564
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 6: Sandra had to go to work and the kids went

565
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 6: to school, and it was it was something that I

566
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 6: had to accept that he wasn't coming back.

567
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Clay didn't return, although his car did show up as

568
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: his daughter mentioned in the Lone Star State.

569
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 6: I don't know how it ever got to Texas. Anyways,

570
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 6: they found the car, Customs I believe was the agency

571
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 6: that contacted the family about the car.

572
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: Were law enforcement helpful to her at the time, I

573
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: don't think so.

574
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 6: They wanted information from her, but they wouldn't give her

575
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 6: any information. That was that kind of relationship. It was

576
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 6: their investigation and you had no right to ask questions

577
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 6: about it.

578
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: Looking back now, do you have any theories as to

579
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: what had happened?

580
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, it pretty much confirms my suspicions that he was

581
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 6: on to something and that whoever he was on to

582
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 6: found out about it and he had him killed. I

583
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 6: thought it was more a high end gangster killing than

584
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 6: it was a drug related.

585
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: Thing like Phil and Clay's daughter. Ted also recalls a

586
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: very prominent police presence at Clay's memorial service.

587
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 6: What I thought would be just family turned out to

588
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 6: be a parade of suits. I remember them lining up

589
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 6: against the wall standing and it just struck me as

590
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 6: so many of these law enforcement types, including the people

591
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 6: from Intercept, and it was unusual for that kind of

592
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 6: group to be at a funeral. And if anybody watches

593
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 6: enough police TV. They always noticed that the police are

594
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 6: always there at a suspected death funeral, but this was

595
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 6: unusually law group. There must have been about a dozen

596
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 6: of them in a small reception room at a memorial

597
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 6: funeral place. It was crowded, you know, for a small

598
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 6: room with these guys standing around. It's the only way

599
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 6: I could describe it. It wasn't a massive room, but

600
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 6: these guys were filling up the space.

601
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: So they were hard to ignore. He couldn't take Nor

602
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: did you get the feeling at the time that they

603
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: were there to send a message.

604
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 6: No. I kind of suspected that they were there because

605
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 6: they had some interest in Clay, not a message, just

606
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 6: wanted to pay their respects to a colleague.

607
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: But funeral guests aside who would have killed Clay and

608
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 1: why his children were left without a father and without

609
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: answers to questions that have remained for more than forty years.

610
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: Ted still struggles with the senselessness, just as he did

611
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: after Clay's death, Even after.

612
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 6: They found body and we had the memorial service. I

613
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 6: just couldn't believe that Clay wouldn't be walking in the

614
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 6: door one day. But it never happened, just carrying around

615
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 6: his cremains in the car until they were disposed of

616
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 6: by our friend. It typrovided what was the remaining of

617
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 6: Clay because the cremains were in a box like a

618
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 6: three by five box, an index card box that's about

619
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 6: the size of it, and normally cremains go in a

620
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 6: larger container, but there wasn't much of him to dispose

621
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 6: of it, and our friend, usual friend took his ashes

622
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 6: out to the ocean and put him in the water,

623
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 6: which was a very sad experience because the girls were there.

624
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 6: That pretty much ended the story of Clayton a little

625
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 6: box of ashes dispersed at seen a very good friend.

626
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 6: It was a trauma that the family lived through for

627
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 6: many years. They never really had closure.

628
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: So why didn't the police or intercept ever get to

629
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: the bottom of who killed Clay Williams Back to Phil Stanford.

630
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big question that's still hanging out there.

631
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 2: One explanation, one possible explanation is that somehow.

632
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 4: They were involved.

633
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a lot of corruption in the

634
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: Sheriff's department at that time. In fact, half of the

635
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 2: homicide squad twenty eight to fifty six were either under

636
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: suspension or under indictment. They've been taking money off of

637
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: dead bodies and undoubtedly involved in the drug trade, so

638
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 2: it's possible they had some sort of deal with Clay,

639
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: which would explain why they've lost the records.

640
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: For God's sake, another possibility is that he was working

641
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: with them as some kind of an formant, and maybe

642
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: Intercept had something to do with his death.

643
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: I certainly didn't think so at the time, but the

644
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: more we look into it, the more possible it seems,

645
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: at least that Intercept connections had something to do with them.

646
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: I know that Clay's friend had the idea that he

647
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: was working for the government at that time. If he

648
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: was working for the government, it was because he'd been

649
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: caught by law enforcement and turned into an informant.

650
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: Unless Devil's Advocate he was there undercover.

651
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: That's so unusual that at this level to have an

652
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: undercover cop posing as.

653
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 4: A drug dealer.

654
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: But how would you also explain the fact that his

655
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: family had no money. I mean, the friend group were

656
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: taking turns and helping one another on house projects because

657
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: they didn't have money to hire outside contractors. And also

658
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: she had to go to work immediately after Clay's death, if.

659
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: He had been working for the government in any sort

660
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: of official capacity, they would have had money. And so

661
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: the lack of money I think is more than likely

662
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: evidence that he Remember he just started an intercept they

663
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: were making the major part of their money from drugs,

664
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: and hadn't been there long enough. Let's suppose to cash.

665
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 6: In on that.

666
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 2: One of the major incentives for getting into some risky

667
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: business like drug dealing is that you don't have money

668
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: and you want to get it as much and as

669
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: fast as possible. And so you can turn that lack

670
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: of money around one hundred and eighty degrees and make

671
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: it an argument why he would have been involved, perhaps

672
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: in some sort of drug deal. And so for me,

673
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: the question is whose side was he on? Very likely

674
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,479
Speaker 2: or there was a double cross, whether he double cross

675
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: someone or someone doublecross him and.

676
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 4: He got killed and dumped in the everplage.

677
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but why and by whom?

678
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah?

679
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: And it's still an open murder case in Miami Dade

680
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: and they can't find the papers.

681
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 4: Makes you wonder, doesn't.

682
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: On the next murder of Miami, Phil Stamford returns to Washington.

683
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: So I got in touch with a radical peace and

684
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: justice organization.

685
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: Leading him back to Miami with a dangerous new mission.

686
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: You're lucky you didn't get yourself killed.

687
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose so.

688
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: Before accepting a life altering invitation.

689
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: Lamour wants to meet me at the Mutiny, the hangout

690
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: for all the premier drugs monsters in Miami.

691
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: Murder of Miami is a production of iHeart Radio. Executive

692
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: producers are Lauren Wright Pachecko, Taylor Chicoine, and Phil Stamford.

693
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: Written by Phil Stamford and Lauren Bright Pacheco, Audio editing

694
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: and sound design by Nicholas Harder, Van Tyer and Taylor Show,

695
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: featuring music by Evan Tyre, Bill Mayer, John Murchison and

696
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: Taylor Chackoigne. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

697
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get the stories that matter

698
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: to you