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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three forty eight of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. The loss of

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Speaker 1: a child is often an unimaginable reality for parents everywhere.

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Speaker 1: For those who experience the sudden pain and grief, losing

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Speaker 1: a child can also cause feelings of shame and failure.

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Speaker 1: To shed light on this experience, as well as share

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Speaker 1: resources for bereaved parents, I'm joined today by grief and

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Speaker 1: clinical trauma professional doctor Niosha Graymon. Doctor Graymond has over

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Speaker 1: twenty years of clinical experience working with African Americans as

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Speaker 1: an independently licensed LCPC in the state of Maryland. In

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, she founded a boutique traumatic grief counseling practice

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Speaker 1: specifically for Black women working through bereavement. In our conversation,

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Speaker 1: doctor Graymond shares ways for parents to honor their child

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Speaker 1: after their passing, strategies for community men members to show

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Speaker 1: up for berief parents other than the typical I'm here

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Speaker 1: for you if you need me, and how traumatic grief

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Speaker 1: symptoms can show up differently in Black women. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session

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Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister Circle to talk

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Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community

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Speaker 1: dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today, doctor Graeman.

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Speaker 2: No, thank you for having me, Doctor joy. I'm a

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Speaker 2: big fan of your work in the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, so I'm curious to hear a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about your practice. Can you tell me

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Speaker 1: what is traumatic grief and why you decided to send

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Speaker 1: you your practice in this HM.

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Speaker 2: So, traumatic grief is a response to losing someone. In

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Speaker 2: this sense, I'm thinking about death of a person. I

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Speaker 2: know there are many ways that people can experience grief,

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Speaker 2: but my practice focuses exclusively on death of an individual.

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Speaker 2: So it's a response to that permanent physical rupture that

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Speaker 2: maps on to what we know are symptoms of traumatic stress.

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Speaker 2: And those symptoms can manifest in multiple dimensions of our experience.

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Speaker 2: They can manifest in physical symptoms such as heart palpitations, difficulties, sleeping, nightmares.

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Speaker 2: They can manifest in perceptual disturbances like flashbacks. They can

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Speaker 2: manifest in cognitive disturbances like ruminating thoughts and thoughts of

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Speaker 2: not wanting to be here anymore, and self harm. And

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Speaker 2: so my practice focuses on working and companioning black women

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Speaker 2: who've experienced a loss and are exhibiting traumatic grief symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious, actual agreement. Is there a difference between

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Speaker 1: traumatic grief symptoms. This is, I guess, the typical kind

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Speaker 1: of grief reaction.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: So when I think about reactions to grief, I actually

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Speaker 2: liken them to different stages of hospitalization, if you will,

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Speaker 2: So you think about the highest level of care would

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Speaker 2: be an intensive care unit, and then below that would

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Speaker 2: be a regular inpatient unit, and then below that outpatient care.

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Speaker 2: When I think about traumatic grief, I think of someone

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Speaker 2: at the highest level of care. Their symptoms of distress

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Speaker 2: are really acute, and they're in need of a lot

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Speaker 2: of supportive services. Now that phase may last for a

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Speaker 2: short period of time, a few weeks, a few months,

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Speaker 2: up to a couple of years, and beyond that, some

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Speaker 2: people may say that you're then stepping into what is

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Speaker 2: called prolonged grief. I don't know how I feel about that,

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Speaker 2: but that's how I differentiate traumatic grief response from a

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Speaker 2: common grief response. Seventy percent of people with I'll not

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Speaker 2: experience a traumatic grief response, but about thirty percent of

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Speaker 2: the population will experience it. And that percentage increases when

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Speaker 2: the death is sudden, in particular, when it's violent, when

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Speaker 2: the grief is disenfranchised, maybe not acknowledged by the society.

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Speaker 2: These are all things that can increase the likelihood that

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Speaker 2: you're going to have a traumatic grief response.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that. Are there other

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Speaker 1: things that kind of would indicate a response that is

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Speaker 1: considered traumatic grief?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: In addition to the flashbacks, nightmares, thoughts of not wanting

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Speaker 2: to be here, self harm, gastrointestinal issues, really heightened sense

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Speaker 2: of hypervigilance, increased sense of worry. So where your baseline

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Speaker 2: is this varies person to person, but thinking about your

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Speaker 2: baseline of worry and your baseline of vigilance, that that

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Speaker 2: is significantly increase, a substantial increase in clingingness, behaviors, wrong

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Speaker 2: impulse to discuss the loss in an indiscriminate way. So

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Speaker 2: just I'm at the car wash and I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: the loss with people I don't know, and also conversely

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Speaker 2: a really strong urge to avoid discussion of the loss,

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Speaker 2: or some additional indicators that someone might be experiencing traumatic grief.

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Speaker 2: But really what I would look for are those physiological

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Speaker 2: and those perceptual disturbances such as flashbacks and the ideas

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Speaker 2: of maybe like feeling dissociated from your body, like the

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Speaker 2: world is a fantasy kind of world, or like you're

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Speaker 2: detached and floating above yourself. And then the physiological symptoms

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Speaker 2: such as nightmares, disturbances, those are some of the key

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Speaker 2: things that I'm looking for.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned that your practice is primarily with black

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Speaker 1: women who are experiencing traumatic grief in your work or

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Speaker 1: in the research. Is there anything that you can share

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Speaker 1: about how traumatic grief either looks different differently for Black

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Speaker 1: women or how we might be disproportionately impacted by traumatic grief.

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Speaker 2: Ah, that's a really good question. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: we're disproportionately impacted by traumatic grief, but I could hypothesize

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Speaker 2: that we might be because our exposure to trauma within

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Speaker 2: the general population tends to be high along the lines

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Speaker 2: of race. Some of the ways that I think intersects

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Speaker 2: with Black women's experience uniquely is that we're carrying this

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Speaker 2: superwoman complex of really being long suffering and holding things together.

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Speaker 2: And the idea that we could be impacted by traumatic grief,

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Speaker 2: I think is one that can be difficult for us

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Speaker 2: to accept and then related to that, difficult for us

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Speaker 2: to consider as an experience where we should reach out

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Speaker 2: for help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because that definitely is where my mind when you know,

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Speaker 1: I think Black women, because of this superwoman's syndrome and

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Speaker 1: lots of other reasons, I think, we often have a

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Speaker 1: time stopping to acknowledge anything difficult, and so we know

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Speaker 1: even typical grief can be hard I think for us

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Speaker 1: to access. So I'm thinking traumatic grief, like, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: does this even look like in black women? And it

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Speaker 1: sounds like it's some of the same kinds of concerns. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So what would you say are some of the most

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Speaker 1: common misconceptions about grief and grieving?

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Speaker 2: Probably most popular is the idea that there are five

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Speaker 2: stages of grief that gets brought up as a myth

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Speaker 2: that Koobler Ross developed the five stages through naturalistic observation

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Speaker 2: of people who were dying from a terminal illness, and

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Speaker 2: her theory was really designed to capture that phenomenological experience

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Speaker 2: of dying. I think related to that, another misperception about

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Speaker 2: grief is that Koobler Ross's stages have no validity. So

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Speaker 2: those experiences that she captures, they are real, it's just

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Speaker 2: that they don't emerge in a linear, stage wise fashion.

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Speaker 2: They may come up all at the same time, there

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Speaker 2: may be a regression, you may not experience some of

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Speaker 2: those symptoms. So I think that in our effort to

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Speaker 2: bust the myth that grief follows a linear stage, we've

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Speaker 2: thrown out the good with kind of like the perfect,

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Speaker 2: and that there is utility and thinking about these different

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Speaker 2: types of experiences. I do think that most of the

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Speaker 2: people I work with have experiences of denial and experiences

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Speaker 2: of shock and bargaining and some kind of acceptance and

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Speaker 2: integration at some point. They just I don't think they

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Speaker 2: follow into a neat stage pattern.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, especially when people are grieving,

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Speaker 1: Like I think why those stages have become so popular

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Speaker 1: is that it offers a little bit of structure to

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Speaker 1: what feels like chaos, right and absolutely, but I wonder

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Speaker 1: what it's then like talking with it's about the phases

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Speaker 1: they'll go through and this idea that eventually grief will

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Speaker 1: go away, because I think people think, like once you

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Speaker 1: hit stage five, like okay, I'm kind of in the clear,

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Speaker 1: but you're saying that it is much more kind of

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Speaker 1: in and out and it abbs and flows.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: An activity that I typically do with clients is the

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Speaker 2: Big Knot of Grief activity. And if you google this,

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Speaker 2: you'll find it like a ball of grief and it

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Speaker 2: looks like a ball of rubber bands and it has

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Speaker 2: all of those so called stages that google rolls talks

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Speaker 2: about in addition to other experiences that are common with grief,

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Speaker 2: and it shows that they're all tangled together, and so

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Speaker 2: I might ask a client to identify which of these

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Speaker 2: experiences they're having now and do that at different points

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Speaker 2: in time during our work together, so that they have

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Speaker 2: a visual representation of the ways in which their symptoms

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Speaker 2: and their experience have been flow, and appreciation for the

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Speaker 2: messiness of grief and that that is normalized, and that

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Speaker 2: they shouldn't feel that they do need to follow these

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Speaker 2: steps in that there is a right way to do grief.

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Speaker 3: They are either on the right track or on the

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Speaker 3: wrong track.

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Speaker 1: Are there any other activities that you find yourself doing

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Speaker 1: pretty often with clients, Oh.

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Speaker 3: Sure, plenty.

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Speaker 2: Another is that I have a card deck that I

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Speaker 2: created of scripture broken down into scriptures focusing on hope

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Speaker 2: and scriptures that focus on limitation. A lot of the

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Speaker 2: women that I work with are practicing Christians and their

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Speaker 2: women of faith, and I think one of the liabilities

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Speaker 2: in our experience this actually maps on to your question

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Speaker 2: about the ways in which the experience of grief can

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Speaker 2: be unique for black women. The majority of us still

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Speaker 2: in this country identify as Christian and identify as religious,

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Speaker 2: and I think that within our religious community there can

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Speaker 2: be a lot of pressure to focus on and optimism

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Speaker 2: and everything happens for a reason, and kind of things

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Speaker 2: that people in a cliche way say map onto a

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Speaker 2: spiritual bypass approach. And it is valuable to introduce or

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Speaker 2: reintroduce or reinforce for clients that a lot of our

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Speaker 2: sacred writings actually speak to suffering within the human condition.

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Speaker 2: So an activity that I might do with a client

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Speaker 2: is have them go through the card deck and separate

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Speaker 2: the deck into scriptures related to hope, scriptures related to limitation,

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Speaker 2: especially at the beginning of our work together, when stress

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Speaker 2: tends to be most acute, ask a client to draw

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Speaker 2: a card from the lamentation deck, or I may ask

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Speaker 2: them to split the deck into familiar scripture and unfamiliar scripture,

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Speaker 2: because another thing that happens is that some of the

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Speaker 2: scriptures become so wrote in terms of our memory, we're

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Speaker 2: not really taking it in, We're not really sitting with

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Speaker 2: that word, and so it can be helpful to focus

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Speaker 2: on a fresh word that is less familiar. And so

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Speaker 2: that's another way that I might use a card deck,

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Speaker 2: and that's something that I typically do.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that, so you. Mention and traumetic grief

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Speaker 1: can often happen as it relates to like a sudden

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Speaker 1: death or a death that has been violent. And I

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Speaker 1: know we want to talk today a little bit about

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Speaker 1: losing a child, which I think is often sudden, one

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Speaker 1: of the most unimaginable things I think we experience as parents.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about what that process

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Speaker 1: looks like when you're working with a client who has

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Speaker 1: lost a child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So first I'll share that I'm coming to that

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Speaker 2: work both as a trained clinician and also as a

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Speaker 2: bereaved mother. I myself lost an infant after three weeks,

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Speaker 2: and I won't tell the whole story of that, but

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Speaker 2: just want your listeners to know that. So, in my experience,

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Speaker 2: the first thing that we're working on together is calming

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Speaker 2: the sympathetic nervous system that in my experience, the black

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Speaker 2: women who come to see me are highly distressed, highly

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Speaker 2: emotion we disregulated, and are exhibiting a number of the

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Speaker 2: symptoms that I described as being symptoms of traumatic stress.

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Speaker 3: So sleep disturbances, nightmares.

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Speaker 2: Flashbacks, very high levels of anxiety, feelings of being outside

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Speaker 2: of the body. And so the first concern is regulation

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Speaker 2: and trying to help clients to ground and then that sense,

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Speaker 2: we're doing what most best practices for trauma treatment would recommend.

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Speaker 2: We are working on breath work and paste breathing and

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Speaker 2: alternate nostril breathing, and I'm teaching clients those different activities

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Speaker 2: in the session and then asking them to practice it

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Speaker 2: outside of the session. In an effort to regulate the system,

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Speaker 2: I'm likely to recommend a number of nature therapeutic interventions.

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Speaker 2: I also have a nature journal that I give to

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Speaker 2: all of my clients, and they have different exercises to

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Speaker 2: do in nature that facilitate mindfulness and a sense of grounding,

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Speaker 2: and we might introduce that in the session as well.

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Speaker 2: So I may be working with the client virtually. My

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Speaker 2: practice is completely virtual, and I may be here in

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Speaker 2: this office as I am with you now and have

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Speaker 2: an assigned outdoor space for the client to go to

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Speaker 2: for the session. The entire session may take place at

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Speaker 2: that location. So, for example, I'm physically located in the

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Speaker 2: Baltimore metropolitan area, we have a place called Lake Roland

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Speaker 2: that might be familiar to my clients, or depending where

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Speaker 2: they are in the state, I'm going to identify outdoor

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Speaker 2: spaces that are within the vicinity of where they live.

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Speaker 2: Or work, and I may assign them to go to

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Speaker 2: that space for the session, and we might select one

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Speaker 2: of the activities, a mindfulness activity relating to noticing all

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Speaker 2: of one primary color that you see in nature and

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Speaker 2: count the number of times that you see it, just

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Speaker 2: to kind of focus that monkey mind that can emerge

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Speaker 2: when you're highly distressed. So it's a concentration exercise. You're

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Speaker 2: getting into the fresh air, which can be energizing. It's

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Speaker 2: known to reduce anxiety and symptoms of depression. So that's

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Speaker 2: what we're working on first, and then thinking about the

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Speaker 2: different types of symptoms that come up with traumatic grief.

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Speaker 2: We're working our way down what I would consider kind

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Speaker 2: of like a scale. So at the top of that

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Speaker 2: would be the physiological symptoms, and we're concentrating on that.

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Speaker 2: Then we're concentrating on the perceptual symptoms, the emotional and

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Speaker 2: cognitive symptoms, and then also the social symptoms. But when

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Speaker 2: a client is coming in and sleep disturbance and nightmares

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Speaker 2: is part of their presentation, that's going to take priority,

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Speaker 2: and so things like the nature therapy interventions, the breath

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Speaker 2: work interventions, those are all actually designed to work to

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Speaker 2: facilitate stabilizing sleep hygiene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because we know you can't do very many of

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Speaker 1: the other things that you're talking about if you're too

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Speaker 1: exhausted or not sleeping will exactly you know, And I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that one of the things that will often

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Speaker 1: come up with clients, especially if a child has died

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Speaker 1: in like an accident or like a sid's death, or

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Speaker 1: is the experience of feeling guilty. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how you might work with a client

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Speaker 1: to manage some of those symptoms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think one thing that's unique about the

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Speaker 2: loss of an infant or a child. It will bring

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Speaker 2: up the same reactions as any sudden loss. But I

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Speaker 2: think with the loss of a child, what becomes unique

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Speaker 2: and nuanced, especially for a parent, is the idea that

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Speaker 2: somehow you failed in your role, your primary role of

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Speaker 2: protecting the child. Thinking about Maslow's hierarchy needs, the very

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Speaker 2: lowest level is the idea of safety and security and

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Speaker 2: meeting someone's physiological needs. Well, if your child dies, you

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Speaker 2: can internalize a sense of failure to have met that

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Speaker 2: basic need, and so that becomes I think long term work,

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Speaker 2: and while I offer short term experience about eighteen sessions

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Speaker 2: that are designed to stabilize the nervous system. That identity

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Speaker 2: work really ends up being a long term project, possibly

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Speaker 2: multi years.

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Speaker 3: It could go on and on.

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Speaker 2: It's open ended because you're really then talking about a

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Speaker 2: renegotiation of an identity and a processing of an important

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Speaker 2: role that you feel you did not live up to.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you shanting that. It sounds like it's much

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Speaker 1: more long term work. That's nothing you're really gonna address

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Speaker 1: in successions, so to speak, more from our conversation after

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Speaker 1: the break. So, something else that I think can complicate

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Speaker 1: this picture is if there are other siblings in the home, right,

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Speaker 1: so then you may be grieving as a parent, but

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Speaker 1: also tending to your other kids who may also be grieving.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about any advice or

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Speaker 1: suggestions you'd have for parents who might be navigating that

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Speaker 1: kind of a dynamic.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to remember that the surviving children

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Speaker 2: will process grief in different ways at different stages of development,

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Speaker 2: and so you should not think of this as a

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Speaker 2: one and done kind of experience, even for a child.

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Speaker 2: So in the same way that successions probably aren't going

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Speaker 2: to do it for someone experiencing traumatic grief and reno

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Speaker 2: goo ciating an identity. In that sense, the same is

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Speaker 2: true for a child, but my recommendation would be to

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Speaker 2: look for resources that are specifically targeting children. There are

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Speaker 2: a number of counseling centers that specifically offer grief camps

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Speaker 2: for children, and that may be a one day grief

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Speaker 2: camp experience, some have overnight camps, some may have programs

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Speaker 2: that exist over multiple months. And so looking at developmental

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Speaker 2: supports that you can marshal together for your child I

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Speaker 2: think is really important as you continue to navigate your

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Speaker 2: own grief, and that may be in an individual kind

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Speaker 2: of capacity with a therapist. There are family therapists who

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Speaker 2: can work with the whole family and have that expertise

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Speaker 2: where everybody is navigating grief together as a unit. A

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Speaker 2: family may prefer to separate out or may prefer to

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Speaker 2: do a combination of both. That I I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important to keep in mind that again, what your

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Speaker 2: child needs is going to vary at different stages, and

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Speaker 2: the way that they process and metabolize their experiences of

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Speaker 2: grief are going to be different at different stages, and

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Speaker 2: so one thing I would recommend is not as a

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Speaker 2: parent not overreacting to any one way the grief is

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Speaker 2: man sifesting in the child, but reinforcing the normalization of

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Speaker 2: the experience, and then also having them get support with

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Speaker 2: peers and professionals who are specifically trained to work with

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Speaker 2: children and grief. I am not one, but I would

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Speaker 2: recommend connecting with.

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Speaker 3: One doctor Greeman.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned normalizing that grief can look lots of different ways,

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Speaker 1: and I think we hear that often. But is there

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Speaker 1: anything that would be more of a concern, either as

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Speaker 1: a parent of other siblings or for your own experience

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Speaker 1: right as a person who's grieving, Any symptoms or things

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Speaker 1: that might be a heightened in terms of a grief reaction.

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Speaker 2: I think again those trauma reactions for an adult, for sure.

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Speaker 2: With a child, I would think about increased manifestations of anxiety,

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Speaker 2: some of the same reactions nightmares would be concerning. Talk

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Speaker 2: of not wanting to be here anymore. Talk of suicide

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Speaker 2: obviously is always concerning both for the child and for

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Speaker 2: the parents. And at the same time, my approach is

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Speaker 2: minimal institutionalization, and I think a lot of therapists as

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Speaker 2: soon as they catch wind of any sense or thought

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Speaker 2: of self harm or not wanting to be here, their

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Speaker 2: own anxiety kicks in, and there can be kind of

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Speaker 2: a heightened like the highest level of intervention that I

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Speaker 2: see you, intervention which may not be necessary, but again

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Speaker 2: that is dependent on the therapists and dependent on the

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Speaker 2: families comfort level. But I would recommend finding therapists who

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Speaker 2: have some comfort and experience and training in working with

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Speaker 2: people who are having thoughts of not wanting to be

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Speaker 2: here or self harm and not necessarily jump immediately to institutionalization.

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Speaker 1: You know something else I didn't answer you, doctor agreement

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Speaker 1: that I'm curious about you because this is your focus.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that you are likely seeing clients on

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Speaker 1: a cadence that is not just week to week, right,

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Speaker 1: if you're kind of managing some of this distress. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how your practice might

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Speaker 1: look different than somebody who's not focused on traumatic grief.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so, again, thinking about kind of those three

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Speaker 2: levels of intervention that icee you in patient and outpatient,

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Speaker 2: I consider my practice the entry point is that I

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Speaker 2: see you most intensive.

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Speaker 3: So when I'm.

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Speaker 2: First working with clients, we're working together every day during

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Speaker 2: the week, five days, and that again is in service

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Speaker 2: of trying to regulate that nervous system which has really

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Speaker 2: gone hey why, And so we're spending a lot of

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Speaker 2: intensive time together. And then we tie trait down to

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Speaker 2: four days a week and then three days a week,

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Speaker 2: and around the three days a week mark, we check

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Speaker 2: in and see if the client wants to stay at

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Speaker 2: three days a week, which some.

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Speaker 3: May for a little while, or if they.

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Speaker 2: Feel ready to even go down to two days a

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Speaker 2: week and then to traditional once a week therapy. But

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Speaker 2: I would say, in my experience, best practices of working

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Speaker 2: with someone who is experiencing a cute stress such as

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Speaker 2: that would be a more intense and more frequent kind

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Speaker 2: of relationship.

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Speaker 1: So is there a way that the grief looks different

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Speaker 1: if you lose a child as an infant versus losing

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Speaker 1: a thirteen year old child?

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Speaker 2: There is, I mean, grief reactions are as unique as

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Speaker 2: a fingerprint, and so what that looks like. I don't

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Speaker 2: think I could even generalize around differences of an infant

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Speaker 2: versus thirteen versus your twenty year old son who died

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Speaker 2: by suicide. They're all sudden and traumatic deaths, and in

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Speaker 2: some sense, they're all disenfranchised deaths, deaths that kind of

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Speaker 2: put you outside the social expectations of our communities. And

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Speaker 2: so at every stage it's a death that can increase

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Speaker 2: sense of isolation, which makes everything more difficult. And they

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Speaker 2: all also share that they're considered off time deaths, so

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Speaker 2: off time in terms of the natural life cycle. And

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Speaker 2: then beyond that, I think it's very unique. So the

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Speaker 2: idea of is it more difficult to experience the death

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Speaker 2: of a child who was never actually birthed into the world,

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Speaker 2: So a death of a child in uteral, the death

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Speaker 2: of a child who's born still, death to sids, death

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Speaker 2: to fatal illness, a cancer, a car accident at sixteen,

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Speaker 2: death by suicide. I don't think we can say, but

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Speaker 2: they're all off time, they're all sudden, and they all

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Speaker 2: tend to lead to a sense of disenfranchisement and a

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Speaker 2: heightened sense of isolation in the experience.

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Speaker 1: So something else we know that often happens after the

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Speaker 1: death of a chow is that this puts a significant

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Speaker 1: strain on the relationship between the parents. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about how you work with clients in

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Speaker 1: your practice around navigating this as a couple or as

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Speaker 1: a family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I work exclusively with Black women and individual therapy.

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Speaker 2: I do not work with couples. I don't work with

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Speaker 2: the partners, and I don't work with whole families. But

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that the whole family does not end

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Speaker 2: up being part of the treatment and the experience when

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Speaker 2: individual is a part of an entire family system, and

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Speaker 2: so that comes in. I think that my approach going

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Speaker 2: into my work with an individual who's part of a

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Speaker 2: couple is that this is going to be hard, and

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Speaker 2: I am going to help you to navigate this with

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Speaker 2: your partner. I definitely do not have separation of the

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Speaker 2: couple in mind at all, even as I know what

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Speaker 2: the literature says about how this kind of loss can

440
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: devastate a couple. I do not go in with that mindset.

441
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: But we're talking about what the woman in the partnership needs,

442
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: and we're focusing on getting her needs met and not

443
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: being responsible for getting her partners needs met. We do

444
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: talk about resources that may be useful to the partner. Again,

445
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: if they want couple's therapy, I can recommend a couple's therapists,

446
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: but very clear that I only work with the individual,

447
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: and so we're talking about ways to communicate with each

448
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: other to continue to try and spend quality time with

449
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: each other during what we would call like a grief break,

450
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: that we need to take breaks sometimes during this process,

451
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 2: and how they can do that together as a couple,

452
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: thinking of different ways. I'm a big proponent of psycho

453
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: education through podcasts such as Therapy for Black Girls along

454
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: with others. I may give that to a client to

455
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 2: share with their partner as a homework assignment and have

456
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: them have a discussion about that and see how they

457
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: receive that information. Some education if we're talking about cis

458
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: hetero couple, some psycho education about stereotypical ways in which

459
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: men may express their grief differently, which again stereotypically tends

460
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: to on to more action oriented, more doing less of

461
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: the talk, therapy, emotional processing, and when that does happen,

462
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: it tends to happen more. Through doing so, there is

463
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: a minimization of blaming each other and kind of like

464
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: a reality checking of expectations of the way someone should

465
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: and should not show up in the relationship.

466
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.

467
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: So we know that one of the hard parts of

468
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: I think processing grief is the special moments, right, so

469
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: holidays and birthdays that come up after the loved one

470
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,239
Speaker 1: is no longer there. Can you talk a little bit

471
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: about navigating that about the child's, Dick's birthday or the

472
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: next holiday season.

473
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I take that on a case by case basis

474
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: that I approach that individually because everyone has a different reaction. Oftentimes,

475
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: the anticipation leading up to the actual day is more

476
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: anxiety provoking than the actual day, is what clients report back.

477
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: So you know, when we know that something is coming up,

478
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: we will bring that up and start to explore how

479
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: you're feeling about it. Are there any special things you

480
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: want to do, ways that you want to engage in

481
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: ritual remembrance. I do talk about the value of ritual

482
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: that it's a way to make meaning, it's a way

483
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: to focus our attention. It serves as a container for

484
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: a therapeutic process. But maybe the client is not interested

485
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: in that, and that's okay.

486
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: As well.

487
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: A parallel goal of traumatic grief therapy or grief therapy

488
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: that's not traumatic, is this reinvestigation and reconsolidation of who

489
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: you are in the world and how you are going

490
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: to move through the world. There's also always like a

491
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: parallel existential project that's happening with the therapy. So, how

492
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: do you feel about holidays now? Maybe that's changed altogether.

493
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Maybe you want to do something completely different, create a

494
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: new type of holiday, do something special at the holiday,

495
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: have an empty chair. If a client is looking for ideas,

496
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: I have plenty of ideas of things that they could try,

497
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: and may ask if any of them feel like they

498
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: resonate with you, they feel like something you would do

499
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: organically or feel true to you. Do you want to

500
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: just go in the room that day and hide under

501
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: the covers.

502
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: That's okay too.

503
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: Just letting people know that there's no one right way

504
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: to do this. We can explore different ways that people

505
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: have done it and have said that it's been helpful,

506
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: and ultimately you are the driver. You're in charge of

507
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: this journey. I may recommend if people are going to

508
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: someone else's home, take separate cars so that if you

509
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: feel like you want to leave early, you can leave

510
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: and not feel like you're trapped at the home. If

511
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 2: you're talking about going with your partner, have a signal

512
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: you guys have come up with that they know, okay,

513
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: it's time for us to go. But just thinking about

514
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: different ways to take care of yourself and what that

515
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: could look like, because one artifact of grief is that

516
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: we have a lot of cognitive fog. So some of

517
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: these things seem very obvious to us even as we're talking,

518
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: and they may seem obvious to listeners who are not

519
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: in the.

520
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: Throes of acute grief.

521
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: But when you're in the throes of it, things that

522
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 2: are very obvious when your mind is clear, are completely

523
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: not on your radar. So it can be as simple

524
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: as just bringing up possibilities that someone is just not

525
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: able to generate on their own in that particular moment

526
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: in time.

527
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned the word disenfranchised several times act agreement,

528
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering what suggestions you would have for support

529
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: people outside of the family who has lost a loved

530
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: one to make a less disenfranchised. Right, So, how can

531
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: we kind of remove some of the shame or stigma

532
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: related to like the loss of a child and really

533
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: support a family that's struggling.

534
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've come such a long way from

535
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: when I went through my own traumatic loss experience, and

536
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: social media has been a saving grace in this sense.

537
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: So on Instagram, there are a number of accounts that

538
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: are specifically dedicated to all manners of laws and grief,

539
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: and those are ways that you can feel less isolated

540
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: following those accounts. This didn't exist when I was going

541
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: through my experience, but now we have help texts, which

542
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: started out as grief texts, and that is incredibly valuable.

543
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: I buy that for all of my own loved ones

544
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: in my community who are experiencing a loss, and I

545
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: also recommend it for my clients because one benefit of

546
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: the help text subscription is that you can send the

547
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: link to two to four people within your network and

548
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: help text will give them recommendations on how to support you,

549
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: which is amazing because one thing that people always say

550
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: when they are witnessing a loved one going through the

551
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: stress of grief is I don't know what to say,

552
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do, and that can be

553
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: true for someone who even.

554
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 3: Does his work. This is true for myself.

555
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: When the person is close to to you, it is

556
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: a different situation from when you're working with someone who

557
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: has one.

558
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: Degree of separation.

559
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: So I use that for myself as well as a

560
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: reminder of ways to show up for my loved ones,

561
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: and that is incredibly helpful. Every single person I have

562
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: given that to or recommended that too said they loved

563
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: help text, so I highly highly recommend that we have Reimagined,

564
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 2: which is an online series that offers webinars and different

565
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: kinds of virtual gatherings. RTZ Hope Return to Zero Hope

566
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 2: is another organization that focus specifically on perinatal loss. They

567
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: offer a number of free support groups for individuals and

568
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: for couples and for families. Another fantastic resource. There really

569
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: is a lot out there now. It's not that difficult

570
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: to find, you know, maybe a one or two day

571
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: conference or a retreat that is a gathering of parents

572
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: who have lost children at different stages. We have a

573
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: lot of options, and those are absolutely things that I

574
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: share with clients as well. In addition to online forums

575
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: support groups, you can have in person groups. But some

576
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: people may be in a position actually where maybe their

577
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: career or just the nature of their particular circumstances, they're

578
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: unable to go to a support group in person, and

579
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: so these other things that are both virtual and sometimes anonymous,

580
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: can be additional sources of support.

581
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for then. I was not aware

582
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: of many of those resources, so I appreciate you sharing

583
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: that with us. So you already mentioned how one of

584
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: the primary symptoms related to grief is cognitive foul. Right,

585
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: And I'm curious to hear your thoughts around bereavement leave

586
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: at work. I feel like I've seen at most you

587
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: get a whole week off depending on like your relationship

588
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 1: to the lost loved one. Can you say a little

589
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: bit more about, like how workplaces can be more supportive

590
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: in terms of bereavement.

591
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 2: Yes, well, actually there is an organization I believe it's

592
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: called Evermore and they are lobbying for a minimum twenty

593
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: day bereavement leave at the workplace, So anyone who is

594
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: interested in that should follow Evermore. You can follow them

595
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: on Instagram and get more information on that. But with

596
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: respect to workplace, I think that the more flexible that

597
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 2: a supervisor can be, the better, and flexible with respect

598
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 2: to scheduling. Scheduling so that the person can go see

599
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: a therapist during the week and not necessarily have to

600
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: see someone at night or on the weekend. When I

601
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: experienced my own traumatic loss, I had amazingly supportive colleagues.

602
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: I'm also a professor of psychology and a department and

603
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: the thing that they gave me that was so helpful

604
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: were grocery cards, because again with that brain fog, the

605
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: idea of meal prep and grocery shopping, everything that we

606
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: do day to day and take for granted is a

607
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: big act of labor. So if you have that kind

608
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: of collegial relationship at your workplace, those kind of instrumental

609
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: supports can be really helpful.

610
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: And I think in addition to.

611
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: Providing structural leave, those are the kind of supports I

612
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: would probably most recommend for a workplace which is a

613
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: structured organizational institutional system. And so when I think about

614
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: supports at a workplace, I'm not necessarily looking for advocating

615
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: for my workplace to become a group therapy place or

616
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: you know, a place for emotional processing. But the workplace

617
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: can provide some of those instrumental supports that could make

618
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: my life easier and kind of soften this journey. And

619
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: it could be things like gift cards, it could be

620
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 2: liberal relieve, a flex schedule, maybe a hybrid schedule. I

621
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: would look and recommend that workplaces think in terms of

622
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: structural things that they can do for clients who are

623
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: experiencing berief, and especially if their official policy is the

624
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: prototypical three days off.

625
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: I'm wondering. You have other suggestions that you've heard from

626
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: your own experience or even from clients, of ways that

627
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: friends and family can offer, maybe some of those instrumental

628
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: supports that you don't even think that you might need,

629
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: but that actually become really helpful.

630
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: Sure people often talk about the uselessness of the I'm

631
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: here if you need me, girl, that does not work

632
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: during that time. I mean you're really again, think in

633
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: terms of intensive care, someone in intensive care cannot actually

634
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: tell you what they need. You need to show up

635
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: and meet the need. So the very basic needs of

636
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: coming by or you know, calling and saying I am

637
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: coming by and I am dropping off food, I am

638
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: coming by and I am picking up the kids and

639
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: taking them to a movie. I'm coming by and I

640
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: am cleaning. If you can't do that, so many of

641
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: our families are separated and dispersed across the country, in

642
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: different states and in different countries. You can call services

643
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: that can do that. I'm going to research a cleaning

644
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: service to have someone come in and clean. I'm going

645
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: to research a nanny service to have someone come, or

646
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: duel a service to have someone come and take care

647
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: of you for a little while. Something to give you

648
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: a break so that you can step out and get

649
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: some fresh air thinking about processing your own grief. That

650
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: could be so you can step out, go in your

651
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: car and park in an undisclosed location and scream your

652
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: lungs out without having the children witness. But taking initiative

653
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 2: is really what people who are acutely distressed need. They

654
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: don't have the wherewith all necessarily to express to you

655
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: what they need.

656
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate you offering that because I think, like

657
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, people are offering like I don't know

658
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: what to say, I don't know what to do, and

659
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: some of those very tangible things I think can be

660
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: really helpful to people. More from our conversation after the break,

661
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Speaker 1: So can you say a little bit about how you

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00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: work with clients around honoring their child after their death,

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00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things could be helpful for them

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Speaker 1: to think about about how to honor the child's life.

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00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: We do do a lot of work around legacy, leaving

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00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: and remembrance. Again, it becomes personalized. I'll offer a lot

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00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: of different selections. People who are nature lovers may want

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00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: to plant a tree or dedicate a tree in honor

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00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: of the loved one who is deceased. If you're talking

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00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: about an infant or a baby, or a child, oftentimes

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00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: like a children's museum will allow you to purchase a

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00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: brick at the museum and the memory of the child,

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00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: or a space within the museum that you can dedicate

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00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: to the child. The ritual of as I was saying

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00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: at a holiday of leaving an open chair for the

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00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: person who has departed, I do incorporate a lot of

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00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: expressive art, and so we may engage in painting. There's

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00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: so many resources again out there. I was introduced to

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00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: a virtual perinatal loss painting session that people could sign

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00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: up for and paint something that is remembrance of the child.

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00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: Jewelry making, making a craft's book, a scrap book. There

682
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: are so many ways, a scholarship, a donation in honor

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00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: of someone participating in March of times, many many ways,

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00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: and again my job as a therapist is to introduce

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00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: you to the world of those ways and see if

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Speaker 2: any of them feel like something that you would want

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00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: to do. It could be as seemingly simple as special walk,

688
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: a quiet walk you've taken us in a special location

689
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 2: that that's your place where you go and remember your

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00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: loved one.

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Speaker 1: You know, we know that there is no timeline for grief,

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00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: and I think that is a part of it that

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00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: people often struggle with, is like always been two years,

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00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: Like why don't I feel better? Can you offer any

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00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: suggestions for anybody who might be enjoying our conversation and

696
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: kind of feeling themselves still in the depths of grief,

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00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: like what kinds of things might they be able to

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00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: do to kind of wade through that wave so to speak.

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00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean I have to say, as a therapist,

700
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 2: do not be afraid to reach out for therapy and

701
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: consider investing in therapy. It can be really helpful to

702
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: have someone who is connected but not in mesh, companion

703
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: alongside you what you're experiencing, and even maybe to check

704
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: in with a therapist to ask if they feel that

705
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 2: what they're experiencing rises to the need or the benefit

706
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: of therapy, because again going back to black women, I

707
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: think that we're socialized to deny our needs and that

708
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: that's an expectation both within our families and the largest society,

709
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: and so we may have a little bit of a

710
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: blind spot there around that. But also again, if you

711
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: are really autonomous and really introverted in terms of your

712
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: processing and private I think an app like help text

713
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 2: is really helpful. If you are a year in, two

714
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: years in please please please know that that is well

715
00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: within normal range of experiencing greed. If most grief therapists

716
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 2: grief counselors will say minimum two years. I have heard

717
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: someone who survived the death of a child by murder

718
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: that it took five years before they even started to

719
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 2: feel a little bit like themselves. And so give yourself

720
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 2: a lot of grace and reach out to people who

721
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: have been there and people who work with people who

722
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: have been there to kind of give yourself a reality

723
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: check on what you're experiencing. It's probably all within a

724
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 2: normal range.

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00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, doctor Greeman. I really appreciate all

726
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: the insights that you've shared as well as the resources.

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00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: Can you share with us how we can stay connected

728
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: with you. What is your website as well as any

729
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: social media channels you'd like to share?

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00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 2: Sure, so, I am on Instagram at Baltimore Grief and

731
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: my website is Wisdom Counseling, Baltimore, LLC. And if you're

732
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: looking for a pair natal loss therapists, you can find

733
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: me of course or in Therapy for Black Girls directory

734
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: and also Postpartum Support International their therapist directory, which not

735
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: only includes therapists who specialize in postpartum depression or anxiety

736
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 2: or psychosis, but also clinicians who specialize in peri natal loss.

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00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: So if you are yourself looking for a therapist who

738
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 2: specializes in perynatal loss, I would recommend that site.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We'll be shure to include all

740
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: of that in the show notes. We appreciate you, I

741
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: appreciate you, and I appreciate your work. Thank you. I'm

742
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: so glad doctor Graymond was able to join us today

743
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and the

744
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: work she's doing, visit the show notes at Therapy for

745
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three four eight, and don't

746
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls right now and

747
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking

748
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory

749
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com slash directory. And if

750
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just

751
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: be in community with other sisters, come on over and

752
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner

753
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: of the Internet. Designed just for black women. You can

754
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.

755
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and

756
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all

757
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

758
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation.

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00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 3: With you all real soon. Take good care. What's