1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: today on Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we're gonna be 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: starting on an expedition into the history of books where 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: I guess this will be in the spirit of our 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: our previous show Invention. We're gonna look at an invention, 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: and I think the book is probably one of the 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: most underappreciated technologies. Obviously, it's not that people don't appreciate 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: books as things, but when we think about books, I 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: think there's a problem that we only appreciate the contents 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: of the books. We only think about them as literature, 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: and we don't think about what a marvelous technology the 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: modern book is. That's right. Yeah, we basically need to 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: take a step back here before we really get into 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: the idea of the invention of the book. Uh, books are, 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: in the words of Carl Sagan, a means of storing 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: additional information that exceeds the information carrying capacity of the brain. 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: And I realized that's that's kind of, uh, you know, 20 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: a simplified version of what they are. But it's also 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: kind of a useful overstatement of the obvious um. The 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: book is a tool. It is an extension of the 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: human body in the same way that a normal tool is, 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: but in this case it is a more precisely an 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: extension of the human mind, kind of an external hard 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: drive for the brain. Exactly. Yeah, I think this this 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: is an example where our our tendency to use computer 28 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: metaphors to understand our own minds. As you know, it's 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: actually pretty helpful. But of course, books are more than that. 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Two books are a way for one author, or a 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: group of authors, or even a legacy of authors to 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: think their thoughts directly into another person's brain. It's a 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: it's a way of not only storing information, but disseminating information, 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: and as such it's played the books have played a 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: vital role in the spread of information, where, for instance, 36 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: would Western civilization be if not for the influx influx 37 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: of Arab books into the medieval world. And that's just 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: one example. Oh yeah, But as I think, it's a 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: fantastic example because it books provide a way for lost 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: knowledge to be reclaimed even when knowledge sort of like 41 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: fades into obscurity within sort of the the the oral 42 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: culture of a society. If there is a book that 43 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: contains that knowledge, that voice and and the book can 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: be found, suddenly all of that past knowledge can return. 45 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: And I think your example is a very good one. 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Now thinking more about the metaphor of like the external 47 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: hard drive or the way of storing information outside the 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: carrying capacity of the brain. In some ways, I think 49 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: that's a really good metaphor, but there are also very 50 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: important ways that that doesn't quite capture everything that books 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: can do. For example, a book is a very different 52 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of memory than a memory in the brain is. 53 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: And I would say one of the main issues is 54 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: it books are fixed physical documents, whereas memories in the 55 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: brain are not fixed. Memories are always changing. Every time 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: you recall a memory, you probably change it in some way. 57 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: And while you know it is possible, of course to 58 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: remember things in an accurate way, it is probably not 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: possible to say, remember the amount of exact nu miracle 60 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: figures that would be recorded in a book list of 61 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: assets or prices. As many you know of the oldest 62 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: books that there are, you know many of the oldest 63 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: books we have are basically trade documents of some kind 64 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: or to remember the exact wording of of an epic 65 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: poem describing a mythological foundation. Absolutely. You know. Another take 66 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: on this that I was reading about. I was reading 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: something from Andrew Robinson, author of the Story of Writing, 68 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: and he he points out that you know just how 69 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: powerful books are and how how feared books often are, 70 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: particularly by usurpers of power and conquerors who often burn 71 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: books of oppressive regimes, banned books. Uh, you know that 72 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: they are powerful reservoirs of human thought and um. And 73 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: to your point earlier, I mean, they endure in ways 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: that oral histories often cannot. Uh. Knowledge can be lost, 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: but then it can be regained through books, words and 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: the books that contain them. Um. They they freeze our 77 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: thoughts as well, in a way that in oral history 78 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: does not. The myth that it exists within the minds 79 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: and on the tongues of the people will continue to change. 80 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: But that which has been recorded, uh, you know, retains 81 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: all of the you know, the the curious edges that 82 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: it had when it was first written down. And you know, 83 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: I don't recall the source on this, but I remember 84 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: us bringing up this idea of of words and in 85 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: a literature freezing thoughts in the past. You know that 86 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: it's taking what is happening in our mind and just 87 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: fixing it. Yeah, I think the example of the way 88 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: myths change over time is a great one here. Like 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: it calls to mind the recent episodes we did about 90 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: the evolution and of the Medusa myth. You know, there's 91 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: clearly some kind of oral history mythology feeding into the 92 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: story that became Medusa and Athena, Medusa and Perseus. But 93 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: once you have a particular author writing their version of 94 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: that myth, suddenly that version is a fixed thing that 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: can be referred to, and it's no longer just just 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: you know, an uncountable part of this protean stew of mythology. 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: Now there is like Ovid's version of the Medusa myth, 98 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: and that that that's a thing you can refer to. Now. 99 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: Of course, it's not the case that books never changed. 100 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: I think, especially in the ancient world. One thing that 101 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: that's hard for us in the modern world to to 102 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: keep in mind is that books in the ancient world 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: had to be copied by hand when they were you know, 104 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: spread about, so changes could easily creep in, either by 105 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: mistakes from you know, scribes doing a sloppy job of 106 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: copying or just inserting their own little impremature on whatever 107 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: it is they're working on. That that did happen too 108 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: sometimes even in uh, you know, even in important books 109 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: like the works of Plato or in the Bible. Um. 110 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: But there's another interesting thing that I think, you know, 111 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: you you were talking about the political power of books, 112 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: the way that like you know, conquerors and and and 113 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: political leaders often like burn or banned books that scare them. 114 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: There is a power in written documents um to create 115 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: a kind of stability in a political sense, right, Because 116 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how a lot of the earliest 117 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: written documents that exist in human history are lists of 118 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: nu miracle figures, like like a record of prices or 119 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: assets in in trade or possession, or lists of laws 120 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: like Hamarabi's Code. I actually got to see the Hamarabi's 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: Code steal in the Louver recently, and and and it 122 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: made me think they're about the significance of having a 123 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: written law code. Now, we might read the laws in 124 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: Hammurabi's Code and and see a lot of brutality and 125 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: unfairness in there. And I think there is absolutely that 126 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: kind of thing to find. But you can also appreciate 127 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: it in a certain way because having a list of 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: written laws, as opposed to sort of rule by the 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: ad hoc pronouncements of a leader does, at least in theory, 130 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: reduce the amount of caprice in how justice is administered. 131 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: Right Like a written law code, at least in theory, 132 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: if it's enforced well, allows you to know what the 133 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: rules and punishments are in advance, rather than just kind 134 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: of like living in fear of whatever the leader's mood 135 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: is going to be today. Yeah, you remove sort of 136 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: the whims of the tyrant. And also I mentioned in 137 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: another level, you kind of remove like, um, let's say 138 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: you weren't even dealing with the tyrant. Let's say you're 139 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: dealing with just sort of like the traditions and stories 140 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: of the people. Right, Um, you'd have to like interpret 141 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: those to get your laws. But here, no, here are 142 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: the laws in a list. You can in many cases 143 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: you may able to, you know, to look at it 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: all at once. All in things, you couldn't actually have 145 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: them all in your head at the same time, but 146 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: they are all on this stone at the same time 147 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: exactly right, Like it gives you a common foundation that 148 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: multiple people can refer to. Now, I want to get 149 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: back to the just the idea of of of books 150 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: here before we inevitably dive back through history again. You know, 151 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how every now and you know, 152 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: hear somebody joke say something like remember books, uh when 153 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: when contemplating electronic resources such as e books and kindles 154 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: and what have you, um, which, you know, I get 155 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: that to a certain extent because I know I've I've 156 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: in my family have tried to cut down on con 157 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: clutter books in the home, you know, like how many 158 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: how many physical books do I actually need? I love 159 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: books have left my own devices. I'm sure that I 160 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: would have a lot of book clutter. But at the 161 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: end of the day, you know, is this something I'm 162 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: going to actually look forward? Am I going to actually 163 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: pull it out and uh and uh and and reference 164 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: it at some point? And or do I have an 165 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: electronic the already somewhere else. I've noticed in myself I 166 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: at least tend to accumulate kind of books of marginal interest, 167 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: Like I'll end up with books in my house that 168 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: are things that uh that I you know, there's probably 169 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: a low likelihood that I'll ever get around to reading them. 170 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: They're not high on my priorities list, and they're just 171 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: here somehow, either I got them at work or you 172 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: know that kind of or they just like looked interesting. 173 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: And he used a bookstore one time. It's like, hey, 174 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: it's sixty cents, I'll get it. Um. That reminds me 175 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: of if I'm remembering this correctly, Um, Burdo Ecco had 176 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: an anecdote about you know, Burdo Ecco, of course, had 177 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: quite a personal library. Um. I think he had to 178 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: like reinforce the floor to to allow him to keep it. 179 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: But at some point, some like a workman or somebody 180 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: had come over and they saw all the books and 181 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, have you read all of these? And 182 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: he said, no, no, these are just the ones I 183 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: planned to read, which which I see that reflected in 184 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: some of my own books. You know, collec used to 185 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: are amassing books and you're like, uh, you know, I 186 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: haven't read these yet. Uh. I would like to read these, 187 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: and that's why they're taking a valuable space in my home. 188 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: But I still have a lot of books in the 189 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: house and and even beyond that, I mean, they're just books. 190 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: Everywhere still like there there's a library down the street 191 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: from where I live. There all these lending libraries, you know, 192 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: so you just just traveling from here to the library. 193 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: There are just books, little boxes, wooden boxes filled with 194 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: like various old cookbooks and to horror and sci fi books, 195 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And on top of this, our 196 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: various e books are PDFs. These are still digital extensions 197 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: of the the the idea, the concept of the book. 198 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: You know, they still obey the laws of the Codex 199 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: and and as such, I think the book will continue 200 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: to be with us for quite some time. But one 201 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: of the big questions we're gonna be asking in in 202 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: this episode or episodes of stuff to blow your mind 203 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: is how far back in time would you have to travel, uh, 204 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, to reach a world in which a book 205 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: would not be identifiable as what it is. Well, that's 206 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: interesting because so the most common form of book that 207 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: we're familiar with today is the is the printed book, 208 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: you know, the product of a printing press. But as 209 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: I was saying earlier, that's actually a fairly recent phenomenon. 210 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: You know, for much of human history, if you had 211 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: a book that sucker had to be made by hand absolutely. Now. Now, 212 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: certainly the printed book as as we you know know, 213 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: like generally the first thing coming to your mind when 214 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: I say book. Uh, that only goes back as far 215 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: as the fifteenth century c. But while the printing press 216 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: certainly changed the trajectory of the book forever in ways 217 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: that will come back to, these were certainly not the 218 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: first books. Yeah, they were. Before this we had we 219 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: had handwritten books. We had the products of the of 220 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, medieval European scriptoriums. And so you might think, well, 221 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: that's the beginning, right, we go back to the scriptorium, 222 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: and that would be the beginning of the book somewhere 223 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: in there. But this would also be correct. So to 224 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: to really get to the heart of the book, to 225 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: get the heart of the Kodak, we have to travel 226 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: much further back in time. And so what we're gonna 227 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: do is we're gonna take a quick break and then 228 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: we will begin that journey. Alright, we're back. So when 229 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: we talk about an invention, we like to talk about 230 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: what what came before, What were the prerequisites of this invention, 231 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: and what were the forces driving it. Now, when we're 232 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: talking about a book, this is obviously an invention with 233 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: many forms. What what counts as a book? Maybe we 234 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: can talk about that a little bit more as we 235 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: go on. Most of us, when we say book, we're 236 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: imagining what inform would be called like a codex, right, 237 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: it's bound. It has pages that face in from either 238 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: side and then are joined at a spine, and you 239 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: can flip through the pages and read them. But you know, 240 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: there are other ways of thinking about books, and all 241 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: of these are, no matter what their form, going to 242 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: trace back to the original invention of written language. Yes, 243 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: and and this in and of itself stands as one 244 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: of the greatest inventions, uh that that humans have wrought 245 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: writing systems themselves seem to emerge out of the fourth 246 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: millennium BC in Mesopotamia. So just to throughout some dates here, Um, 247 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, in Egypt we're talking about b C. In 248 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: the Indus Valley we're talking about b C. In Crete 249 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: seventeen fifty BC, in China twelve hundred b C. And 250 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: in Central America five hundred BC. And so are those 251 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: different dates you're giving are those believed to be um 252 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 1: parts along a spreading evolution of language or independent inventions 253 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: of written language? Well, it's interested reading about this, and 254 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: apparently some scholars believe writing may have spread from culture 255 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: to culture, but the majority seemed to see it as 256 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: a situation of independent invention in the various major civilizations 257 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: of the ancient world and beyond the ancient world, as 258 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: it becomes increasingly important to record trade at a laws, 259 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: histories and more. Coming back again to you know, why 260 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: do we turn to the written word, Why do we 261 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: turn to keeping records of things? So that that's where 262 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: it begins. It's not the composition of poetry. Uh, it's 263 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: not that taking our oral histories and putting them down 264 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: in a solid form. It's it's initially about the data 265 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: about the laws, you know. In a way, it's it's 266 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: like it begins with computing, right, yeah, I think, well, 267 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, like fixing points of 268 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: information for future reference, so that you can either know, 269 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, know something that is beyond your ability to 270 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: remember in a stable way just within your own brain, 271 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: or so that you can you and multiple other people 272 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: can all be able to point to the same thing 273 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: and and and be agreed because it's written in the text. 274 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: Of course, the thing with writing is you have to 275 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: you have to put it on something, right. Uh. Right. 276 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: You know if I take a note about what I 277 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: need to get at the grocery store and I put 278 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: it on, say, you know, a post it note. Great, 279 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: I have a note, But that's that's that's not a book. 280 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: I can't really make an argument that's a book, not 281 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: unless I do some serious folding. Right, and post it 282 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: notes did not exist in the ancient world. Most of 283 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: the oldest known written documents of any significant length, uh 284 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: that that still exists today are printed on solid, hard, 285 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: often heavy surfaces by carving a relief. Uh. And so 286 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: a great example would be one thing I already mentioned. 287 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: The Code of Hammurabi, dated to around seventeen fifty BC. 288 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: This is a law code from ancient Mesopotamia. Uh. There 289 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: was one law I was just looking at in it 290 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: that I thought was very interesting and related to a 291 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: recent episode. I believe this is law number one seven 292 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: of Hammurabi's code. If anyone point the finger at a 293 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: sister of a god or the wife of anyone and 294 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: cannot prove it, this man shall be taken before the 295 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: judges and his brow shall be marked. And the way 296 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: scholars interpret that idea of pointing the finger is as 297 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: slander I believe interesting. But but here we get in 298 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: one of our earliest own law codes, like the the 299 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: idea that pointing the finger is a very dangerous act 300 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: and it deserves judicial remedy. Um. But so the code 301 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: of hammer Rabbi is carved on what's known as a steel. 302 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: This is like a large block that cannot be easily transported, 303 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: for one from one place to another. It's not like 304 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: a book you can put in your pocket or sack 305 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: or carry away. You can't store it in a compact way. 306 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: It's this huge stone. And so a steel was often 307 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: an official decree or some kind of public document. They 308 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: would be meant for display display to onlookers, often bound 309 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: to a particular place, and the contents that are displayed 310 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: on a steel often bear out this usage. So contents 311 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: you might find would be laws, tomb or grave markers. 312 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: One example I really like is is a boundary steel. 313 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: We've talked about this in previous episodes. I believe where 314 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: you might have um in the ancient areas, there would 315 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: be like a marker at the edge of somebody's property, 316 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: and it might just contain a list of statements on it, 317 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: like this property here belongs to so and so you 318 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: can't come on the property. If you come on the property, 319 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: the gods will pluck out your eyes if you come 320 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: on the property, you know. And then it just like 321 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: list after you know, list item after list item of 322 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: all these like curses that will befall you if you 323 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: violate this, uh, this this property restriction. Yeah, it's it's 324 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: a wonderful idea. We need to bring it back. But 325 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: that I put one of those in my yard. Uh. 326 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: The if you come on this property without a mask, um, 327 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: the gods shall smite you. Um. The that episode was 328 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: I think we just titled it the Curse, and it 329 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: was an October publication, and there's a lot of interesting 330 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: stuff and that I remember going into some uses of 331 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: the curse in um in Chinese carpentry. Uh, there's just 332 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: some fun examples. Yeah, yeah, totally. But so these types 333 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: of you know, writing substrates or things that are gonna 334 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: be big fixed usually meant to stay in one place 335 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: and say something that has to do with that particular place. 336 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: Another example would be, uh, some of these ancient steel Uh, 337 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: I don't know what the plural is, actually I should 338 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: know the steely stelly stella whatever it is. Um, they 339 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: will like list to the exploits of a mighty king 340 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: and say, like all the people that he conquered and 341 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: all the heads that he smashed. Yeah, it's such an 342 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: amazing concept when you really think about it, because it's 343 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: not just writing down information Like these large scale examples 344 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: of this are you're taking you're taking this knowledge, you're 345 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: taking this history or this interpretation of history, or propaganda, 346 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: however you want to phrase it. And you're you're you're 347 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: you're printing it on the world. You're making it part 348 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: of the environment. Yeah, totally. Uh. And so I think 349 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: we should make a distinction here. While I think these 350 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: early you know, written documents that are carved on large 351 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: stones and and you know whatever you want to call 352 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: the steel tradition, I don't think that's a book. Probably. 353 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: I think for something to qualify as a book, it 354 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: really needs to include an element of compactness and portability. 355 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be something that could reasonably 356 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: be carried from one place to another and could reasonably 357 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: be stored in multiples within a building or a home. 358 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: And that's a fancy way of saying, um, could you 359 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: kill a bug with it? Like if you could not 360 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: kill a bug with it. I'm not sure it's a 361 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: book in any in any way, shape or form. I 362 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: like your definition better, so let's side down a little 363 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: deeper in determining what is and what is in a book. 364 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: I of course turned to a book that I love 365 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: to dive into anytime. We start looking at an ancient invention. 366 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: That is the seventy Grade Inventions of the Ancient World, 367 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: edited by Brian Fagan Um and the contributor in this 368 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: book for the chapters dealing with writing and encryption in 369 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: the History of Books, uh is an individual. They're already 370 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: mentioned by the name of Andrew Robinson, who wrote the 371 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: story of writing Lost Languages and the man who deciphered 372 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: linear b So I want to read an excerpt from 373 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: Robinson's work in the seventy Grade Inventions of the Ancient 374 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: World quote. There is nothing in the concept of the 375 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: book that requires it to consist of pages with text 376 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: printed or written on paper still less sewn or glued 377 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: together between cardboard covers like present day examples. A cash 378 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: of Babylon clay tablets, an Egyptian papyrus, roll of vellum 379 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: codex from medieval Europe, A folding maya codex with jaguar 380 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: skin covers from Central America, a micro film, and an 381 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: electronic book all qualify as books as much as printed 382 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: paper volume. And uh this, when I was reading this 383 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: instantly brought to mind the concept of a physical book, 384 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: as presented in Frank Herbert's Dune, which of course takes 385 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: place in the far future of humanity. I don't know 386 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: if you remember this, Joe, there's this concept of a 387 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: first of all film books, which are described as sugar 388 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: wire imprints used in training and carrying anemonic pulse. Well 389 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: that clears it up. Yeah, yeah, ignore that part. But 390 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: because there's also mention of an old fashioned book, but 391 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: with a futuristic twist. It's an old orange Catholic bible 392 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 1: that a character gives to another, and it's made for 393 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: space travelers. Were told it's printed on filament paper that 394 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: you can't actually touch. It has its own magnifier, and 395 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: it has an electrostatic charge system, so the charge holds 396 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: the book closed, forcing against spring locked covers. Were told 397 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: you press the edge of the book and the selected 398 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: pages open, the magnifier slides into place, and you can 399 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: move it ahead page by page. In this fashion fashion 400 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: without ever touching these like super delicate pages. I remember 401 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: reading that for the first time as a kid and 402 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: just being like blown away by this this idea of 403 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: this this tiny little space bible that has its own 404 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: magnifier and it's um, you know, it's using this electric 405 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: electrostatic charge system to turn the tiny little pages. So 406 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a combination of a book and 407 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: a micro fiche. But it's like it's got its own 408 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: reading apparatus exactly. Yeah, But I want to come back 409 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: to what Robinson was talking about. He's he's sort of 410 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: rolling out what he sees as the criteria for calling 411 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: something a book. Quote. They are all made for public circulation, 412 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: enjoy a considerable degree of permanence, and are relatively portable compared, 413 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,239 Speaker 1: say to a monumental inscription through their different media. They 414 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: are all capable of knowledge transmission, transcending space and time. 415 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: Of course, printing with movable type, which was invented much 416 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: later than the book, vastly increases its potential readership, but 417 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: it does not define the concept. Well, there's something he 418 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: kind of hints at in the last sentence there which 419 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: which I find interesting, which is the idea of a 420 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: possible link between the mass production of books and and 421 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: people's ability to read books. Because another thing, you know, 422 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: we we talked about how for most of human history, 423 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: books were not mass produced. They had to be copied 424 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: by hand. They were precious and rare things that were 425 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: difficult to make um and so you know, obviously the 426 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: only people who could afford to have them would be 427 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: like institutions or very rich people or monasteries that kind 428 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: of thing. But also, you know, for most of human history, 429 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: most people have been illiterate. It's only really in the 430 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: past couple of centuries that that widespread public literacy has 431 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: been a goal. Absolutely, Yeah, so you have to ask yourself. 432 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously a book that cannot be read is 433 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: still for the most part of book, but by some 434 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: definitions maybe not. Like for instance, we discussed the Voliche 435 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: manuscript in the past on the show, you know, and 436 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: it's unreadable nature that continues to uh intrigue and confuse us. 437 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: You know, if if the book cannot convey information, if 438 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: the boot, if the book is mute. Uh, you know, 439 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: what does that say? It's if I feel similar ways 440 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: about say like if Wu Tang puts out an album 441 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: that know, but the only one person can listen to 442 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: or John Malkovich makes a film that nobody can watch 443 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: for a hundred years, like it's really an album? Is 444 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: that really a movie? Because um, you know this is 445 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: like a communication has to take place for this to 446 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 1: really be media in certain certain respects. Yeah, I agree, 447 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: it's an interesting way of thinking about it. Uh So 448 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: Robinson goes on to just briefly outline some of the 449 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: core examples of of early things that we could we 450 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: could say we're books. Uh So, the two earliest contenders 451 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: that he highlights, first of all, Mesopotamian clay tablets. These 452 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: would be handwritten Cuneiform script inscribed in clay with a 453 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: red and then baked. And then the other one, Uh, 454 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: that's this one of the two contenders here is Egyptian 455 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: papyrus rolls written in ink with a brush. The papyrus itself. 456 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: Uh this was this was made from sheets that were 457 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: made from the papyrus plant, so stripped, sliced, overlapped in 458 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: layers of pith, pressed and then allowed to dry. And 459 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: I'll come back to this one in more detail and 460 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: a bit. However, three other innovations that are worth highlighting 461 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: shiny is bamboo and wooden slips bound together with chords. Uh. 462 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: This basically constitutes the idea of a book. And of 463 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: course the Chinese would have would go on to invent 464 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: paper itself in one oh five C. And from there 465 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: it would spread through East Asia, though it would be 466 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: nearly a thousand years before Europe followed suit. You also 467 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: have Mediterranean writing tablets. These would be consist of one 468 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: to ten pieces of wood bound together by a clasp 469 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: or hinge, or alternatively by a chord strung through holes 470 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: around along the edges. And then you also have Greek 471 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: and Roman wax writing tablets. Uh. And of course they 472 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: also use papyrus and parchment rolls as well. And of 473 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: course all of these examples of what we might call books, Uh, 474 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: we're leading up to what we refer to as the codex, 475 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: in which a number of sheets of parchment are bound 476 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: together with writing on both sides of each sheet. Yeah, 477 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: and it's really the codex. I think that's the first 478 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: thing that we recognize as is morphologically the same as 479 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: the modern books that we have, despite changes in materials 480 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: and stuff. The codex is what you're thinking of when 481 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: you think of a book it folds, it has pages 482 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: you leave through the pages to read exactly. So I 483 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: was reading an excellent brief overview of the history of 484 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: things leading up to the Codex in a book called 485 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: the book The Life Story of a Technology by Nicole Howard. 486 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: I think this was released at some point through Johns 487 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: Hopkins University Press UM. But but Howard's overview is interesting. 488 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: So she mentioned some of the same things you're talking about, 489 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: of course, that you know in in the early archaeological 490 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: record of written documents, hard surfaces rule the day. And 491 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: of course these would include like the steel that we 492 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: mentioned before, uh, and the you know, the Mesopotamian clay tablets, 493 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: the what the Assyrians the Babylonians used to preserve written information, 494 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: and you know, making in dense on clay tablets, but 495 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: also things like wood and bone. She also mentioned several 496 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: other substrates that I thought were interesting as as surfaces 497 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: for writing on, including ivory towards us shell, linen, palm leaves, 498 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: and what's called bast fiber, which is a tough fiber 499 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: from the vascular tissue of some plant species, which is 500 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: often used to make things like rope or matting. And 501 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: and she identifies the most direct ancestor to the modern 502 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: hardware of a book, a bound book with pages, as 503 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: what emerges in northern Africa around twenty b c. E. 504 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: I've I've read some other estimates putting it earlier, around 505 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: three thousand or we don't know exactly, but of course, 506 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: whenever it did emerge, this was papyrus. And it's time 507 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: to sound the alarm. We got it. We got a 508 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elder Alert. Are you ready for some plenty? Yeah? Yeah, 509 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: let's let's touch in with Plenty of the Elder for 510 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: little history here, But first we should probably take one 511 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: more break. Oh okay, we're gonna we're gonna jump out, 512 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 1: but then we'll be right back in with plenty. All right, 513 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: we're back. So we're jumping in with Plenty of the 514 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Elder and his description of the ancient papyrus industry. So 515 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elder, of course, was a first century 516 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: Roman military officer and author, encyclopedist, president of the Lead 517 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: Acetate Fan Club, of course, he he wrote at length 518 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: about what he believed on the history and production of papyrus, 519 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: and this would be I'm gonna read a section here 520 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: from the Bostock and Riley translation of Plenty's Natural History, 521 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: which is his his big encyclopedia. It's got, it's got 522 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: all the info you'll ever need. Uh So, Plenty rights, 523 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: we have not as yet taken any notice of the 524 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: marsh plants, nor yet of the shrubs that grow upon 525 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: the banks of rivers. Before quitting Egypt, however, we must 526 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: make some mention of the nature of the papyrus, seeing 527 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: that all the usages of civilized life depend in such 528 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: a remarkable degree upon the employment of paper at all events, 529 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: the remembrance of past events. Um so and so he's 530 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: he's talking about the translation there uses the word paper. 531 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: Of course, this is not exactly what we'll talk about 532 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: when we get into the Knese papermaking tradition. That this 533 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: is papyrus, a slightly different thing, though it's a sort 534 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: of paper. Like he calls papyrus that commodity by which 535 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: immortality is ensured to man. So Plenty of ranking papyrus 536 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: up there as like one of the most important inventions 537 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: in Roman civilization, He's like, hey, without papyrus, basically, like 538 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: we we couldn't have a civilization, We couldn't have remembrance 539 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: of things past. So he goes on to introduce the 540 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: plant by saying, quote, Papyrus grows either in the marshes 541 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: of Egypt or in the sluggish waters of the River 542 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: Nile when they have overflowed and are lying stagnant, in 543 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: pools that do not exceed a couple of cubits in depth. 544 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: The route lies obliquely and is about the thickness of 545 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: one's arm. The section of the stalk is triangular, and 546 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: it tapers gracefully upwards towards the extremity, being not more 547 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: than ten cubits at most in height. And then Plenty 548 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: goes on to explain the way that papyrus was made. 549 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: This is coming sort of from Howard summary. Basically, you 550 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: would you would cut the plant into segments, and you 551 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: would remove this outer green rind to access the pith inside, 552 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: which is this pulpy substance that's made primarily of cellulose. Cellulose, 553 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: of course, is fiber. And then the pith would be 554 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: laid out in these long, thin strips on a damp 555 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: table or board and hammered flat side by side to 556 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: form these single layer sheets. And then a second layer 557 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: of strips was laid flat perpendicular to the first sheet, 558 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: and then also pounded or pressed flat, and plenty claims 559 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: that these perpendicular sheets were quote moistened with nile water, 560 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: a liquid which, when in a muddy state, has the 561 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: peculiar qualities of glue. Now, Howard mentions that modern scholars 562 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: do not think nile water was actually used as a 563 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: glue here. Instead they think that, uh, the glue would 564 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: just be a natural property of these plant fibers. There 565 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: would be a sap in the reed, and that sap 566 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: would bind the sheets together once they had been pounded 567 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: or pressed in a perpendicular fashion. Yes, Robinson writes this 568 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: as well, that it's the naturally occurring sap. Yeah. But 569 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: either way, you would then dry the sheets, and so 570 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: an individual sheet of papyrus might be small. It just 571 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: might be, you know, around twelve inches in height. But 572 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 1: what you can do is glue sheets together at the edges, 573 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: and then once you've attached a bunch of papyrus sheets together, 574 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: they can be rolled up into scrolls. And scrolls, of course, 575 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: are an important book technology that precedes the codex, and 576 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: we can explore that more as we go forward. Um, 577 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: But Howard points out an interesting side effect of the 578 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: production process. She says that by hammering the strips together 579 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: in this perpendicular fashion, this was actually important because it 580 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: would allow you to to get a much more durable material. Right, 581 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: the paper will be flexible, it'll be fairly tough, you know, 582 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: because you've got this crossing here. But also as a 583 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: side effect, you'd get one side of the papyrus sheet 584 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: with natural fibers running top to bottom, while the other 585 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: side would have fibers running horizontally. And this has practical 586 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: implications for writing. The side with the fibers running horizontally 587 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: was fairly easy to write on, you know, think about 588 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: like line to note paper, right, but the side with 589 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: the fibers running vertically was often considered unfit for writing. 590 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: It was difficult to write on, and a lot of 591 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: archaeologists have found that in the ancient world, a lot 592 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: of people just didn't write on this side of the page, 593 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: which is very interesting because you know, when you consider 594 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: writing material as a relatively precious commodity compared to how 595 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, cheap and easily accessible paper is today. Yeah, 596 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: and it's almost like they were natural. Um. I find 597 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: with children it's similar, like you have to remind them, Hey, uh, 598 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: the printer paper didn't grow on trees, so please use 599 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: the back of the printer paper when you were you know, 600 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: sketching monsters and and whatnot. But because their natural instinct 601 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: seems to be just to to do the front and 602 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: just leave it at that, I don't know, but no, 603 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,239 Speaker 1: my marker bleeds through. I need to have you know, 604 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: clean monsters on either side. Yeah. Um, we may come 605 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: back to this in a bit. But I'm reminded earlier 606 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: I mentioned how like her e books are essentially the codex, uh, 607 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, in in a in E form. But of 608 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: course I should probably add this because I know a 609 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: lot of people may have been thinking this as well. 610 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: You know, it depends on how you have your set 611 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: your viewing settings in place. For instance, the notes that 612 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: we are using here, I've uh, mine are currently in 613 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: a PDF form, so I'm reading it in Adobe Acrobat 614 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: Pro and uh currently it is scrolling. Now there is 615 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: a separation between pages, so it's like I have scrolling pages. However, 616 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: if I go to my view settings, I can change that. 617 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: I can remove the space between the pages and turn 618 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: it into essentially a digital scroll. Um. Instead I'm doing 619 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: something that is I think ultimately more like a codex. Uh, 620 00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 1: And you can even you know, of course, do think 621 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: as we have like opposing pages and all as well. 622 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe we are living in a 623 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: in an age where um, there's maybe a preference for 624 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: the codex, but we certainly have scroll like options available 625 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: to us as well. Yeah, I see what you're talking about. 626 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, this isn't the first time I've heard this. Actually, 627 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: I remember many years ago watching some interview where, um, 628 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: the literary scholar Harold Bloom was in a in a 629 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: you know, characteristically grumpy fashion, lamenting the rise of the 630 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: idea of e books. He he just seemed to hate 631 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: this idea and he cared. He with the way he 632 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 1: described it was like two thousand years after we made 633 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: the transition to the codex, finally we are transitioning back 634 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: to the scroll. And he thought this was just awful. 635 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: Not saying I necessarily agree with that sentiment, though, there 636 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: is something about like scrolling down to read an article, 637 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: say on a website, that I don't really like as 638 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: a reading format, Like it is more pleasant to have 639 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: the same article in a format where you can just 640 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: turn the pages. I like the sequential nature of page turning. Um, 641 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: there's something. I mean, maybe it's just two elementary you 642 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: know that it feels like I'm I'm, I'm, I'm taking 643 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: care of a task one after the other, one page 644 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: at a time, in a way where an endless scroll 645 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: might seem intimidating. I don't know, uh, Or maybe it's 646 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: just this is what I'm used to and this is 647 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: what I like to do, because like I'm when I'm 648 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: using my kindle, there's certainly more of a feeling of 649 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: side to side, page to page, and you know, you'd 650 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 1: even have some sort of a page count up there 651 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I agree. Okay, so interesting side facts 652 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: Plenty notes here he plenty starts describing a bunch of 653 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: different kinds of paper. He's like, not, now, I will 654 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: tell you about the nine different kinds of papyrus, thanks Plenty, 655 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: But he mentions one kind he's telling about the Egyptians 656 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: describing this um high quality white papyrus as what's called 657 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: hieratic or this is sometimes translate it as holy paper, 658 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: since it was reserved entirely for the use of religious books, 659 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: and the footnote in the Bostock and Riley translation of 660 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: the Natural History says quote. The priests would not allow 661 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: it to be sold lest it might be used for 662 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: profane writing, but after it was once written upon, it 663 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: was easily procurable. The Romans were in the habit of 664 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: purchasing it, largely in the latter state, and then washing 665 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: off the writing and using it as paper of the 666 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: finest quality. Hence it received the name of Augustus as 667 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: representing in Latin its Greek name hierradicus, or sacred. In 668 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: the length of time, it became a common impression, as 669 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: here mentioned that this name was given in honor of 670 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: Augustus Caesar. But I think that first part is interesting, 671 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: so like if the if their characterization is correct here 672 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: that like certain kinds of papyrus were guarded in a 673 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: material sense and regarded as holy because they would be 674 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: used at some point to write holy scripture on, not 675 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: because anything had been written on them yet. But then 676 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: once something had already been written on them, then it 677 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: was no longer sacred, and then you could easily just 678 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: get it and I guess wash off the holy scripture 679 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: and write whatever you wanted on it. Oh wow, that's interesting. 680 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: That reminds me of the I think it was a 681 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: two part episode. Maybe it's just a one part that 682 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: it did with did with Christian back in the day 683 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: on the idea of Grimore's of you know, books that 684 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: end up taking on sacred qualities, uh, you know, generally 685 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: because of the sacred contents that they have. Um. There 686 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: was I remember there being one Um we were talking 687 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: about a cash of Qurans that had been discovered and uh. 688 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: And and part of the issue was is like these books, 689 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: these holy books had been used and reused to the 690 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 1: point where they were kind of falling apart. They weren't 691 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: really usable anymore, they weren't presentable, but they were also 692 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: sacred so they couldn't be destroyed. So they were kind 693 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: of walled away in in a building. And then they 694 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 1: were discovered much later. And I if I remember correctly, 695 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, they gave us some of the oldest examples 696 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: of the Quran um that we have been able to, 697 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, to to acquire. Uh. So Yeah, when you 698 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: start getting into the idea of of sacred information put 699 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: onto a material, a material that may itself be considered sacred. Uh, Yeah, 700 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: everything gets gets very complicated. Yeah, that is interesting, Like 701 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: the the conceptual contagion, that the the sacredness of the 702 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: content of what's written on the paper or the papyrus 703 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: or the ink or whatever eventually extends by contagion to 704 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: the physical form itself. It's not just that what is 705 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: written in here is holy, but like the actual physical 706 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: book is holy. This is such a weird concept, Like 707 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: it seems like the kind of thing that might be 708 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: utilized by like an artist. Like what if you had 709 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: what if you had a Bible, okay, like a you know, 710 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: a Catholic Bible, and you found out that it was 711 00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: made from from paper that had been recycled from pornography. Um, 712 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: like what how would how would we deally? I don't 713 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: think we would particularly like it would be a weird 714 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 1: thing to focus on today. It would also be weird 715 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: that you were, you know, making it exclusively from pornography recyclings. 716 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: But um, but would that even would that begin to 717 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: sort of creep into our idea of of contagion, that 718 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: like the that this is this this book is is profane. 719 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: It's some sort of a blasphemy because you made it 720 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: on such recycled material. I feel like a lot of 721 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: modern religious people would probably would probably house the distinction 722 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: in the intent of the person who made it, So 723 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: it would be like, did you know you were making 724 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: making it out of this recycled paper or not? Like it? 725 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: I think most people today like if they found that 726 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: out but they knew it was just recycled paper and 727 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: the person had no intention of making that particular transition, 728 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: they wouldn't care, but they might get annoyed at the 729 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: idea that someone did this on purpose, right, like if 730 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: it were in a museum in New York City or something. Um. 731 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: But then again, imagine this. I can easily see somebody, 732 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: say like a televangelists marketing their own Bible that they 733 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: can guarantee is not made using recycled pornography. People be like, yes, 734 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: how have I been using an impure Bible this whole time? 735 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: There might be some pornography in there, right, Well, I mean, 736 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: if you've got somebody who's good at selling it, they'll 737 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: be good at selling it. Yeah, Okay, So I guess 738 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 1: to get back to papyrus. So how was papyrus written on? Well, 739 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: Howard mentions that the ancient Egyptians would write on pyrus 740 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: using reads or quills, often dipped in an ink made 741 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: out of charcoal deluded in water. Uh. And again a reminder. 742 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: At this time we've mentioned this, but if you wanted 743 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: a copy of a book at this time, it had 744 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: to be written out by hand. You could not get 745 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: it from a printing press. And Howard mentions that scribes 746 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt would copy scrolls either by sight, so 747 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: you just have one copy of a book on you know, 748 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: one part of your desk and another blank scroll on 749 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: the other part, and you just copy it out by hand, 750 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: or you'd have a book read aloud and you'd have 751 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: to copy it down from dictation, which sounds even harder. 752 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: But this was a slow and laborious process, not just 753 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: for the obvious reasons you might imagine. It would also 754 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,760 Speaker 1: be slow and laborious to copy a book in this way, 755 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: because there are also mechanical limitations, like you had to 756 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: wait for the ink to dry as you're going, and 757 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: there's no backspace key if you make a mistake, and 758 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: so forth. But papyrus made out of the read the 759 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: Cyprus papyrus planted it was a major industry, supplying writing 760 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: material to the broader Mediterranean world. But but Howard identifies 761 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: an interesting shift, and it begins especially around the first century. 762 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: There's there's some elements of this shift in earlier centuries, 763 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: but it really gets going around the first century that 764 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: there's this long running, major shift from papyrus to parchment 765 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: for writing material. Now why this shift, Well, one explanation 766 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: given by historians is a basic shortage of supply. Again, papyrus, 767 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: writing material had to be made of this specific plant 768 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: there reads cyperus papyrus, and if there was a sudden 769 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: scarcity of the read that would mean a scarcity of 770 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: the writing material for export. But Howard also mentions that 771 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: there were sort of pressures put on Egypt by military 772 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: incursions in the previous centuries, and so whatever the cause 773 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: of the dwindling supply of exported papyrus around the first century, 774 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: bookmaking people's elsewhere in the Mediterranean, we're really we're really 775 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: starting to seek out an alternative, which they found in 776 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: parchment and vellum. Now, what are these substances. Basically, think 777 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: like paper made out of treated animal skins. Parchment is 778 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: made from untanned sheep leather, and vellum is made from 779 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: calf skin. So to treat these animal skins for us 780 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: as writing surfaces, first, of course, you had to clean them. 781 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: You had to get all the biological gunk off, you know, 782 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: all the hair and stuff, and then they would they 783 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: would clean the smooth surface with applications of pumice and lime, 784 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,800 Speaker 1: and Howard points out that this was a difficult process 785 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: since the animal skin had to be stretched and dried 786 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: at the same time. So the goal was to stretch 787 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: it out in such a way that it wouldn't contract 788 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: back to its original shape once it was finished drying. 789 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 1: And there are actually several ways that parchment and vellum 790 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: proved superior to papyrus as writing material. One way is 791 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: that they can be made pretty much anywhere. Papyrus was 792 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: dependent on Egypt. It was dependent on this Egyptian industry, 793 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: especially since it was made from a reed native to 794 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: the Nile Delta area. Though I think there were papyrus 795 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: or papyrus like products also made from some of the 796 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: Mesopotamian empires based on reed plants from the Tigris and Euphrates. 797 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was the same species of plant, 798 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: but it seems primarily papyrus was coming from Egypt. But nevertheless, 799 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: the ancient Romans were generally dependent on Egyptian papyrus for 800 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 1: their needs. Meanwhile, sheep and calves they could be pretty 801 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: much anywhere. They were raised pretty much anywhere, so you 802 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: could always make parchment or vellum locally. And Howard doesn't 803 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: mention this, but I've read in other sources that the 804 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: process of making papyrus writing material was also a closely 805 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: guarded industrial secret, and I kind of wonder if this 806 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 1: might also have proved important in its decline. Yeah, you 807 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: ultimately you just need an alternative to that that trades 808 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: secret um papyrus. So yeah, you turn to like, what 809 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: can I do? What are some other organic sources I 810 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: can source to turn into something that I can write 811 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: on right now. On top of this, there was some 812 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: other benefits as well. Parchment and vellum were just more 813 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: durable than papyrus. They held up better over time and 814 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: and held up against wear and tear better. But finally, 815 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: there were aesthetic and practical reasons parchment worked better than papyrus. One, 816 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: it was easier to write on without the facially perpendicular 817 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: fibers of the plant matter. Once you had written on it, Also, 818 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: the text stood out more clearly from from the background 819 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: than it did on papyrus, and to some extent, parchment 820 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: actually allowed a scribes to erase mistakes or other unwanted 821 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 1: writing more easily than than papyrus, did I mean by 822 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: virtue of it being just more durable for starters, because 823 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: we have to remember that. I think we went into 824 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: this we talked about our on our Invention episode about 825 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: the pencil and the eraser. Like erasing, uh is often 826 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: a a matter of taking away from this the material 827 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,720 Speaker 1: upon which you have written. And so if you're already 828 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: dealing with fragile papyrus, there's there's just less you can 829 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: do without destroying the paper totally. Uh So, So by 830 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: about the fourth century CE, parchment had replaced papyrus for 831 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: most written documents in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. 832 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: And so that's gonna play a very important part in 833 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: shaping the physical evolution of the book, especially once we 834 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,760 Speaker 1: start talking about the form wars of scroll versus codex. 835 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: But there's something else we need to get into. I 836 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: guess at the beginning of the next episode, I think 837 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: we're running out of time for today. But parallel to 838 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: the papyrus and parchment industries being established in those regions 839 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 1: in the West eastward in China, written documents had found 840 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: a home on a totally different writing material and this 841 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: would be paper. So maybe in the next episode we 842 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: should start off by looking at the paper industry. Absolutely so, uh, 843 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: definitely join us next time as we continue this look 844 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: at the history of the codex, the history of paper, 845 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: the history of writing itself also kind of bound up 846 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: into a well, not a single volume, multiple volume, so 847 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: you can think of each each episode of the show 848 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: is a volume, right, um, so join us next time. 849 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 850 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Uh, you 851 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: know exactly where to find us. You can find us 852 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. And what can you do 853 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: to support us? Well, you can rate, you can review, 854 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: you can subscribe. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 855 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 856 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 857 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 858 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 859 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: at stuffed blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 860 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 861 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 862 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.