1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and forty. 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: I'm going to be interviewing Tessa West about her new 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: book Jerks at Work. So if you have ever dealt 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: with a difficult colleague, this episode is for you. She 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: has some practical tips on how to manage it and 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: not necessarily have to leave what could be a great job. 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: How to deal with these people. So we're going to, 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, talk about something different. We are not going 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: to be talking about Jerks at Work in the introduction here. Instead, 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about a question we sometimes get from people 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: about our creative process. So how do you keep coming 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: up with ideas? Whether for podcasts, for blog post for 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: things like that. So, Sarah, what do you do? What 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: is your creative process? When you suggested this as a topic, 24 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: I was like, what, First of all, I'm not a 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: creative person, and second of all, I do not have 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: a process. But then I was like, well, for a 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: non creative person, I do create a lot of content 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: in various realms. So I don't know. Maybe I just 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: have to think about what my definition of creative actually is. 30 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: I do come up with a lot of ideas around 31 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: this podcast, although a lot of them come from somebody else, 32 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: like a blog commenter that has something that makes me think, 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: or just something that happens in life, like our recent 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: Disney episode. I don't know that there was that much creativity. 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: But then when you sit down and do it, you 36 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: come up with all kinds of ideas and connections, And again, 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: I guess that's creativity. But I hadn't really thought about 38 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: it that way, So I guess I don't have a 39 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: process per se. But having routines where I sit down 40 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: and generate content and doing that regularly I think helps 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: break creativity or kind of strengthen that muscle. And I've 42 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: generally sit down and blog like almost every morning, so 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: I guess maybe just kind of out of habit more 44 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: than anything else. Deadlines definitely helped me. If I know 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: we have a podcast episode coming up, all of a sudden, 46 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: I can come up with more ideas for future episodes. 47 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: I was listening to another podcast recently and they were 48 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: talking about how they plan all their episodes for the year, 49 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: and I'm like, wow, that is amazing, but like, I 50 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: just like it's not appealing to me. I like to 51 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: come up with, like what I'm excited to talk about 52 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: at that juncture of life. So that's more how I 53 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: do things with Laura for best of both worlds. And 54 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: then finally I'll say I am a proponent of the 55 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: like just not trying to be perfect. I mean that 56 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: is why I'm comfortable posting a blog post with basically 57 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: zero editing and have about a twenty to twenty five 58 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: minute timeline where I churn those out because I feel 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: like I've shared a lot of cool things and if 60 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: I were to take the time to make a perfect 61 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: post every week or something, A, I don't think that 62 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: would be as fun and B I just don't think 63 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: I would be able to share as much, so I'm 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: a proponent over like just like bad first draft and 65 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: then maybe just share it with the world if it's 66 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: just a blog and it's a low stakes kind of 67 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: a publication. Yeah, Definitely more work leads to better work. 68 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: I think for most people of volume strategy is the 69 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: way to go. Like, the more you create, the more 70 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: ideas you come up with, partly because you have more 71 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: time that you're sitting there thinking about ideas, and as 72 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: you have that time, the ideas will start coming to you. 73 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: And as you put stuff out in the world, people 74 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: react to it and then you get more ideas from that. 75 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Everything does get easier with practice. Yeah. I also love 76 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: the idea of you know, just creating stuff and then 77 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: getting feedback on it, and even if you're not posting 78 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: it publicly, like getting a few friends to look at 79 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: something and telling you what they think will help. Having 80 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: lots of inputs, like the more thoughtful stuff you were 81 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: reading or listening to, the more connections you will forage. 82 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: And then having some way to capture ideas like if 83 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: an idea comes to you for a blog post or something, 84 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Sarah or you are you know, a podcast idea, well 85 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: you'll sometimes like email me right, like, just you know, 86 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: shoot off an email and same thing here, I'll shoot 87 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: off an email or I'll email myself like I've emailed 88 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: myself all kinds of ideas so that you can capture 89 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: those and then you know, when you have a time, 90 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: you're sitting down to plan out stuff you can do 91 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: and talking to other people, collaborating. You know, good ideas 92 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: come from working on that. You're you're collaborating with people 93 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: on some research projects, aren't you. Yeah, I collaborate with 94 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: people all day long. Yeah, My life is a collaboration. 95 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: So there you go. Yeah, the more people you talk 96 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: to about your projects, the more stuff you come up with. 97 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: And you can create groups to workshop each other's stuff 98 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: even if you are not and hopefully those people will 99 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: want be wonderful and they are not jerks at work, 100 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: which is what we're going to be talking about in 101 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: the main section of this So I'm going to be 102 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: interviewing Tessa West here about her book Jerks at Work, 103 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: and she's going to tell us how we can deal 104 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: with them. Well, I am so excited to welcome Tessa 105 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: West to the program. Tessa, can you tell our listeners 106 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself? Yeah, thank you so much 107 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: for having me. So, I'm a social psychology professor at 108 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: New York University. Basically what that means is I study 109 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: how everyday people interact with each other and negotiate, handle 110 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: tough problems, deal with anxiety and these sorts of things. 111 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: And you know, that's what I do for most of 112 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: my job, But I also do a lot of work 113 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: consulting and helping people who are dealing with difficult problems 114 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: at work, everything from brand new employees to bosses who've 115 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: been doing this for thirty years plus. Wonderful. And your 116 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: brand new book is called Jerks at Work. So we 117 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: saw that title. I'm like, hmmm, not that any of 118 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: us have ever had to deal with such things, but 119 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: what drew you to this topic? Enjoyed the story in 120 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: your book about actually rearranging your schedule once so you 121 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: didn't have to run into a particular jerk in the bathroom. Yeah, 122 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: I think jerks are these kind of funny people that 123 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: at least the jerks I'm talking about in my book 124 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: are really just the sort of low level daily people 125 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,559 Speaker 1: that we have conflict with that they don't do anything 126 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: that's bad enough that we can can usually complain about 127 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: them to human resources or take any formal action against them. 128 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: But their behaviors make us miserable at work, and it's 129 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: actually that low level conflict that stresses us out and 130 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: really contributes to health problems and psychological stress, and we 131 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: end up taking a lot of it at home with 132 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: us and taking it out on our kids and our spouses. 133 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: So I wanted to write a book that just gets 134 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: at these daily conflict that we have. And from my perspective, 135 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: I think we've all dealt with jerks at work. We 136 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: all have the potential to even be one under the 137 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: right circumstances, So it could be useful to just learn 138 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: some kind of take them strategies of what to do. Yeah, 139 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: and your book is divided into kind of a taxonomy 140 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: of the various that one might encounter. I wonder if 141 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: you could just, you know, walk us through a few 142 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: of these, just a sentence or so about them, so 143 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: we know what we what we might be looking for 144 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: as we are on our safari trying to find they 145 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 1: to label your jerks y, Yes, exactly. I talk about 146 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: seven different types in this book, and I'll just give 147 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: you kind of a brief thing about each one. So 148 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: the first is the kiss up kick downer, So this 149 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: is that person who your boss loves. They're very successful 150 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: at work, but they torture you and everyone at the 151 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: same level is you are even beneath them, without ever 152 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: getting caught. The next is the credit stealer, so this 153 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: is that person who takes credit for all of your 154 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: hard work and your good ideas. And the next is 155 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: the bulldozer, the person who manages to just always have 156 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: their voice heard. They talk over people. If they don't 157 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: like an outcome of a group decision, they go behind 158 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: the scenes to talk to the boss or the boss's 159 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: boss to get their way. Next, we have the free writer. 160 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: So that's that person with all the charm in the 161 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: world who just gets away with doing nothing and it's 162 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: super frustrating for those of us who are very conscientious 163 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: at work. And then we have three different types of bosses. 164 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: So the first is the micromanager. This is actually the 165 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: most common type of boss. You know, we're used to 166 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: having bosses who pay attention to detail, but these folks 167 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: are obsessed over every little detailed no matter how irrelevant 168 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: it is, and they kind of do this to everybody 169 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: and drive us crazy and then we have the neglectful boss, 170 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: who's kind of on the opposite end of that continuum. 171 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: So they tend to just be overworked and overburdened. Sometimes 172 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: they panic and they show up and they micromanage you 173 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: at the last moment just to feel like they can 174 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: get some control back, but most of the time they're 175 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: just nowhere to be found. And then lastly, the gaslighter. 176 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: So this is that very difficult type of person who 177 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: lies with the intent of deceiving on a grand scale, 178 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: and they cut you off socially and they make it 179 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: very hard for you to kind of challenge their perspective. 180 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: They create a completely alternative reality for you at work. Yeah, 181 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: so it sounds like I'm getting tense just listening to this. 182 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 1: That's not triggering, right, I know. But we're going to 183 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: talk through some strategies for how to deal with a 184 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: few of these. So I wanted to start with the 185 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: credit stealer. So, you know, lots of people have been 186 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: in a work environment where somebody else is taking the 187 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: credit for the work we do, and obviously this can 188 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: be very demoralizing. So what do you recommend people do 189 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: in this situation. It's a really hard question to answer. 190 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when we think about credit stealing, 191 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that contribute to it that 192 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,119 Speaker 1: we need to understand to figure out what the solutions 193 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: should be. So the first is, if you're in a 194 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: group where credit stealing is happening, or what's happening to you, 195 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: is there a system accountability where everyone just kind of 196 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: knows who contributed what, And the best way to create 197 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: that system is to write it down immediately after you 198 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: have a meeting, have this kind of rotating role of 199 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: notes taking to get everyone on the same page. The 200 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: next important thing to do, and this is actually critical 201 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: with remote work and hybrid work, is there's a lot 202 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: of what we call invisible labor that's going on. People 203 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: are doing jobs, and actually this disproportionately affects women. They're 204 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: doing work that go unseen that your boss, your coworkers 205 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: might not even know about. The only person who knows 206 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: you're doing it is your credit stealer. And so when 207 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: you don't actually tell anyone you're doing this work, it's 208 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: easy to steal credit for something that you were never 209 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: going to get credit for in the first place. And 210 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: then I think kind of another step, and this is 211 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: more of an offensive strategy is learning how to be 212 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: heard it work, learning how to have voice, and you 213 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: need to have that going into the meeting so that 214 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: credit stealers are just less likely to actually get away 215 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: with it. And actually the best way to have voice 216 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: at work is to develop social connections, to be well networked, 217 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: to know what strategies work in a room with a 218 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: certain type of leadership. You know, what is the kind 219 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: of most persuasive strategies that certain leaders like to hear 220 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: from people. If they don't like a racist strategies, don't 221 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: do those things. And really also kind of know insider 222 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: tricks like when are the best times to actually hold 223 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: these meetings when leaders are going to be the most 224 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: open to hearing from you, So you can kind of 225 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: learn these strategies of being seen as a leader, having 226 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: voice going into the meeting, so that if someone tries 227 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: to do a credit for you, it just kind of 228 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: bounces off of you because you automatically soak it up 229 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: like a sponge. People just automatically attach your idea to 230 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: you instead of you having to fight to keep it 231 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: the entire time. Yeah, very important, and getting that sense 232 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: of social connection at work is critical. I think one 233 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: of your lines is that what is it that having 234 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: friends at work is the antidote for jerks at work? Yeah, 235 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: I think you know, we're all missing the social connection 236 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: at work, but in ways we don't even realize it's 237 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: affecting our careers. So, you know, not just a best 238 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: friend that you can talk to about your problems, but 239 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: also well connected people who are a bit at arms length, 240 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: who can actually connect you to other targets of jerks. 241 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, even people who've left the company and dealt 242 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: with this person in the past. You know, my job, 243 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: I was just actually talking to the person who runs it, 244 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: and you know, the people who fix our computer is 245 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: actually the most knowledgeable about people's personalities. But like people 246 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: in academia, the professors sort of ignore them. And it's 247 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: crazy to me because there's super well connected and they're 248 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: actually outside of our social networks, and so they're often 249 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: people like that are often the best to go to 250 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: to actually kind of learn information about how to get ahead, 251 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: how to deal with these difficult people exactly. All right, Well, 252 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and then 253 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: we'll be back with Tessa West talking about jerks at work. 254 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: So I am back with Tessa West, who is talking 255 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: about her brand new book Jerks at Work and how 256 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: we can deal with difficult people in the professional environment. 257 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: We were just talking about credit stealers and how to 258 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: deal with them. How about the free writers. I think 259 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners have encountered. We're all diligent 260 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: sorts here, We've done a lot of extra work over 261 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: the years. So the free rider is a common problem, right, 262 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: It's absolutely common. In fact, there's some great new social 263 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: science research showing that this problem's really gotten out of 264 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: control in the era of remote work. And even if 265 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: you confront a free writer and this will kind of 266 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: get into the strategies of what you do. Even if 267 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: you confront them with hard evidence of their free writing 268 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: and proof that everyone in the group thinks they've done it, 269 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: they will just deny it till the day they die. 270 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: It's very hard to get people to actually even kind 271 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: of fess up to this type of behavior. And you know, honestly, 272 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: these folks are really smart. They tend to target teams 273 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: that are full of conscientious team players who are actually 274 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: willing to pick up the slack for them, and sometimes 275 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: pick up the slack so well that they actually do 276 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: better than teams that don't have free writers, so they 277 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: can actually kind of accidentally benefit from them. And if 278 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: there's any kind of collective rewarding involved with the team, 279 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: they'll also take advantage of those teams because they're going 280 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: to benefit no matter what they do. The team is 281 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: a collective is going to get rewarded. And I'd say 282 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: on top of that, we're usually dealing with charismatic, fun 283 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: people that everybody actually likes, and so, you know, if 284 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: these people have terrible personalities, I think we kick them 285 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: out of our groups really early. But they're fun and 286 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: they have gossip, and they can get the best dinner reservations, 287 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: and we actually enjoy their company, and so they get 288 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: away with slacking off and then doing the veneer of work, 289 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: like you know, doing the group presentation after everyone's been 290 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: working on it for thirty days. That just kind of 291 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: looks like they're contributing, but in reality, they've just spent 292 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: five minutes doing it. So what do we do about 293 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: these people? You had a suggestion about fairness checks, which 294 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: I thought was a great idea for how we could 295 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: sort of structure teamwork in general. That's right, I mean, 296 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: I think it feels weird sometimes to lay a bunch 297 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: of rules down on your teams, especially if you like 298 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: each other, you get along well, all these kinds of things, 299 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: things seem to be going well. But fairness checks are 300 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: very easy to do, and you can do them multiple 301 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: times throughout the group. What I like to do is 302 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: ask kind of two sets of questions. The first is 303 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: what did everybody agree to do at the beginning of 304 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: the group meeting? You know, what work has everybody agreed 305 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: to do? And then instead of asking them if anyone's 306 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: free writing, what you do instead is ask people if 307 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: they did any work they didn't agree to do ahead 308 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: of time. Because what free writers do is they actually 309 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: they're pretty good at kind of breaking up their work 310 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: and spreading it across equally across multiple people, so no 311 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: one person feels the load. But if you're a boss 312 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: or a manager or a team leader, what you'll see 313 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: is over time, there'll be a pattern where everyone's kind 314 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: of picking up a little bit of extra work, and 315 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: you're able to get this information out without asking people 316 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: to kind of tell on each other. It's just the 317 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: discrepancy between what you agreed to do what you actually 318 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: ended up doing. That can really help fish that out. Yeah, 319 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: and I think people might be willing to point out 320 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: that somebody else was doing extra work too, as a 321 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: way to you know, you're not telling anyone, you're actually 322 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: like lauding a coworker who just did extra work. But 323 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: yet also is like book, which was by the way, 324 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: if we go back to that original list that was 325 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: on John's list and somehow that's exactly Mary doing it again. 326 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: It's all about framing, right, So if you can like 327 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: lift up someone who's been doing you know, extra work 328 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: or invisible labor or whatever that is, instead of putting 329 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: down a team member who honestly you probably actually like 330 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: and or personally, then that actually can make it just 331 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: kind of a much more comfortable thing to do. And 332 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: then I think the other thing is just resist the 333 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: temptation to actually confront them and tell them that you 334 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: caught them, because they're already disengaged. Now you're just adding 335 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: shame to the mix. They're going to really disengage, and 336 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: you actually want to bring them back in by reminding 337 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: them what you miss in the first place about them 338 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: and kind of what can we do to get us 339 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: all on the same page again? Awesome and then finally 340 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about the bulldozer. So, the bulldozer 341 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: somebody who's you know, pushing to get their way. And 342 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: I think what many of our listeners may have encountered 343 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: this in especially if you are newly into management or 344 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: people's boss for the first time and you are managing 345 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: somebody who is a bulldozer. I mean, what do you 346 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: do about that situation? Yeah, so bulldozers tend to have 347 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: power and status, so they get away with talking the most, 348 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: talking the loudest, and interrupting the most in teams. You know, 349 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: the best strategy for dealing with these folks isn't in 350 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: the moment, it's planning ahead. So if you know you 351 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: have a bulldozer, I mean, we've all been there where 352 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: we know that if so and so shows up, we're 353 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: not going to get anything done. God knows how many 354 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: hours we're all going to be sitting here. You have 355 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: to plan ahead of sort of who's going to be 356 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: in charge of not interrupting or shutting down the bulldozer, 357 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: but calling on others to be heard. So what you 358 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: really need is someone to say, Okay, we've heard from John. 359 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Let's we haven't heard from you. Know, Laura or Maria 360 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: or whoever else to kind of lift up the voices 361 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: of others. I think that you have to get others 362 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: to recognize that bulldozer, because it really does take a 363 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: team to kind of shut that person down. And then 364 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: I would also say that bulldozers are actually really good 365 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: at kind of orchestrating relationships outside of the team and 366 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: pulling levers of power that aren't just one level above them, 367 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: but sometimes two or three levels, and so they have 368 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: no problem kind of jumping rank to get what they want. 369 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: So the team that's being bulldozed, if you find yourself 370 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: kind of in an impasse all the time, you're going 371 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: to have to do the same thing and find out 372 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: who that person's going to behind the scenes to have 373 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: your arguments heard. The number one strategy bulldozers use to 374 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: shut stuff down is they criticize the process of decision making, 375 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: So they make leaders question whether there is procedural justice, 376 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: whether we talked enough about it, whether the decision was 377 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: made too quickly. By questioning the process, it makes they 378 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: make it look like they care about the group, but 379 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: in reality, they just don't like the outcome, and they're 380 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: justifying it by attacking the process, So just watch out 381 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: for that strategy. Yeah. And is there a way to 382 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: sort of reassert your own control over the situation if 383 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: you are the manager of this person who on some 384 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: level is like not really accepting the fact that you 385 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: are their manager. Yeah. I mean this happens a lot 386 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: to women in power because men get away with talking 387 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: more and louder often. In fact, when women do it, 388 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: it's seen through a very different light. A couple things 389 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: that you can do are actually sort of ironically, when 390 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: you make a point, you don't want to talk for longer. 391 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: You want to actually make super short, very sort of 392 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: terse points very early on in meetings. So I in 393 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: my book, I talk about the martyin nem CO role. 394 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: You kind of have thirty seconds to make a point, 395 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, then the light turns yellow. At that point, 396 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: no one's listening to you at red. They're like the 397 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: zoom screens minimize their shopping online. So you actually want 398 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: to talk for a shorter period of time, and you 399 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: want to do it early. And you also just kind 400 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: of want to cert your leadership very early on in 401 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: that meeting, sometimes over and over again. As a leader. 402 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: You can do it by having new people introduce themselves 403 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: or you know, start the meeting by talking about goals 404 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: or agendas. Just doing that can actually really sort of 405 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: help push the bulldozer off to the site so people 406 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: don't see that person as the leader instead of you. Yeah, 407 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: that's an interesting point about when people hear someone being 408 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: assertive at the beginning of anything, they automatically assume that 409 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: person is high status. Yeah, exactly, and you have to 410 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: be that person. How hard is that stereotype to your 411 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: own good? Yeah, you want to be that person. So 412 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: does remote work change any of this? You know, at 413 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: one point in your book you mentioned somebody who is 414 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: a really bad, micromanaging boss, but who you know, was 415 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: like too lazy to take the stairs. So they're targets 416 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: were the people who are right around them as opposed 417 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: to the employees on a different for it. And so 418 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, you know, like now that so many of 419 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: us are working from our kitchen tables or the guest 420 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: bedroom or whatever, like, does that make it easier to 421 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: deal with jerks because you get some physical distance or 422 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: is it harder because they're just like, you know, you 423 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: can't turn it off and completely be away from them. 424 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: Because your laptops by your bed. I mean, yeah, it's 425 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: a great question. I think, you know, smart jerks, those 426 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: that actually have a lot of social skills, have found 427 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: ways of really exploiting our current system to get away 428 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: with their bad behavior. So micro managers, for example, they'll 429 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: have no problem just going from email to text and 430 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: they'll just text you all the time instead, and they 431 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: actually get additional information that they didn't even get face 432 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: to face, which is whether your text was delivered, so 433 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: they can kind of spye on you even more. Is 434 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: there even more top down control over you than when 435 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: you were in person where they we could see that 436 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: you're busy in a meeting and things like that. So 437 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: some types of so are actually getting away with it. 438 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: I would definitely say that credits dealers get away with 439 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: it more because we do all this silent work. So 440 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: dirks are very much still alive and well. But like 441 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, a virus, like you know, like the coronavirus, 442 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: they can just adapt and mutate and become even better 443 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: it's at their jobs than they were before. So certainly 444 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: the dirt problem isn't going away. And I've seen you know, 445 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: very creative instantiations of all of the dirks I've talked 446 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: about in this hybrid world, they just figure out new 447 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: ways to get away with it. They just don't share 448 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: the new delta like they're more dangerous, but you know, 449 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: they on the prost just you know, more prevalent, but 450 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: less uh less less dangerous. Interesting questions. I don't know. 451 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: But speaking of viruses and such, well, let's talk about 452 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: healthy teams. Yeah, so, so what are some of the 453 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: habits of healthy teams that you know, even if there 454 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: is conflict, it is it is well managed, and so 455 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: that any any inherent jerkiness that all of us might 456 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: have because we are humans and could come out in 457 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: certain circumstances, is just channeled toward good. That's a great question. 458 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: I think what healthy teams tend to do is they 459 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: they're kind of like a couple that make sure they 460 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: always have date night even if things are going well. 461 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's maintenance. So there are clear consistent rules 462 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: that everybody must follow. There's extremely clean kind of note 463 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: keeping about who's done what, and if there's conflict, you know, 464 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: small things that come up. And I talk a little 465 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: bit about this in my conclusion, they handle it right 466 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: then and there and when they actually bring up problems. 467 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: They focus on specific behaviors, not on how they feel 468 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: about it, and not on what that behavior says about 469 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,239 Speaker 1: the other person and what they're trying to do. And 470 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: you know what their incentives are for, you know, trying 471 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: to screw them or whatever. So I think healthy teams, Yes, 472 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: they're full of go getters, they're conscientious, they have all 473 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: that great stuff. Everybody gets along, but they also engage 474 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: in these maintenance behaviors. You know that we see often 475 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: people kind of relaxing on a little bit too much 476 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: when they feel like there's flow and a crew, And 477 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: I think we often kind of rationalize not keeping track 478 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: of who said what, not keeping track of contributions, not 479 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: making sure we have equal talk time for members when 480 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: we feel like everybody trusts each other. And that's where 481 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: you get these jerks that can kind of sneak in 482 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: and then take advantage of these types of groups. Yeah, 483 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: because everything seems to be going well, and if you're not, 484 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: you know, doing this this maintenance, all of a sudden, 485 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: you've gone six months with no date night, and yeah, 486 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: and your roommates or exactly, well that's a different sort 487 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: of jerk situation. But yeah, so Tessa, we always end 488 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: with a love of the week, which is something that 489 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: we are enjoying these days and and that is making 490 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: our life good. So I can go first because it 491 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: allows us to you to think about it. I'm really 492 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: enjoying that my kids are using their pogo sticks. So 493 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: it turns out that and you know, it can be 494 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: done on your driveway, so you're not like trying to 495 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: It's not like a bike, so you're going off, you know, 496 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: and I have to worry about traffic or anything like 497 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: that on your driveway. It also burns a ton of energy, 498 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: and there's a very straightforward sense of competition, and you know, 499 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: because if somebody got ten without falling off, then somebody 500 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: else has to get twelve, and so then you're practicing 501 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: and getting up to thirty four fifty. I don't know. 502 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: Apparently there's a world record of like two hundred thousand 503 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: jumps on a pogo stick. I don't Yeah, my kid 504 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,239 Speaker 1: actually has that world record book. I know what you're 505 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: talking about. It's like, could I get that one? Could 506 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: I get what that? We account for me? Like, well, 507 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: probably not to two hundred thousand, but we'll see. How 508 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: about you. That's great. I love that my kid, who's eight, 509 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: has decided that playing basketball at the park is more 510 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: interesting than watching Mister Beast on YouTube or playing Minecraft. 511 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: You know, this is the first time in like two 512 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: and a half years where playing outside has actually been 513 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: kind of more appealing than playing on his iPad. It's 514 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,239 Speaker 1: normally like I have to bribe him. So, I mean, 515 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: last weekend in New York, it was beautiful. We played 516 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: for eight hours outside and it felt like a miracle. 517 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: So I'm going to embrace it while I have it. 518 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: It's just enough people are now at the park that 519 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: it's like you can get a good game going. Yeah, 520 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like an eighties childhood. They're running 521 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: me the little my childhood where just everyone's at the 522 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: park or just you know, anyone can join the basketball. 523 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: It's super nice and it's social and yeah, that's what 524 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm doing. That's wonderful. Well, that's when human action interaction 525 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: goes well as a funny Now, I'm like, you guys 526 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: actually like eye contact. You forgot toxic as it can well, Tessa, 527 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Where can our listeners 528 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: find you? You can go to my website. Tessa westauthor, 529 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: dot com. I have list of retailers there. I also 530 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: have all my jerk at where quizzes that you can 531 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: take and get immediate feedback of where you fall in 532 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: these different categories as well as are you an effective ally, 533 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: So that can be a fun one to take as well. 534 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: That's exactly and hopefully we won't all find out that 535 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: we are the jerks at work. Occasionally we probably are, 536 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: all right, Well, Tessa, thanks so much for joining us. 537 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: Thank you well, that was amazing. Lots of practical tips there. 538 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: Our question and is another sort of work related one. 539 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: This comes from a science professor at a research university 540 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: who runs a big lab full of students who are 541 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: working toward their PhD, post doc fellows and research scientists. 542 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: She pays everyone's salary out of the research grants she 543 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: gets for the lab, so she's basically their boss in 544 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: a business, although it is under the auspices of a university. 545 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: So that's how you can sort of have this mindset 546 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: of what's going on here. So as she is managing people, 547 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing because she gave us more details, but just 548 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: so we be a bit anonymous here. She meets with 549 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: everyone in her lab three times per year to talk 550 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: about professional and research goal setting. They review the prior 551 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: semester's goals, see what has been accomplished, and set new 552 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: goals accordingly. She sometimes does, you know, weekly group meetings 553 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: where people discuss progress too. She's a vail for discussions. 554 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: Basically the boss you want. She's amazing. Okay. So the 555 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: problem is, she says, for some trainees this works great. 556 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: The goal setting process is like intuitive. They meet with her, 557 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: they set goals for the next time. When they come back, 558 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: they have achieved those goals. They are ready to move 559 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: on to new ones. She says, for others, it is 560 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: clear that this process of goal setting meetings does not work. 561 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: Despite my periodic reminders during each semester to review their 562 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: goals and make sure they are making progress. I feel 563 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: like these trainees find this a mostly useless or awkward exercise, 564 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: maybe fee feeling like they're and then making no progress. 565 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: It's not that these individuals aren't smart or capable or hardworking, 566 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: but anecdotally they are less focused and productive and efficient 567 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: in the lab, so fewer of their experiments tend to 568 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: work out and result in published articles. She appreciates that 569 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: not everyone works the same way. She values diversity of 570 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: all forms, which means that there's also different work styles 571 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: that she wants to welcome into her lab. Knows a 572 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: lot of people are young. Obviously this is their first 573 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: big job that's open ended. That doesn't you know, come 574 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: with like this is what you do? You do X, 575 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: Y or Z, Now did you do it? So she 576 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: understands that that's an issue, But what are our suggestions 577 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: for people who are either just getting into goal setting 578 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: or for alternate accountability structures for people for whom this 579 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: does not come naturally? So, Sarah, what do you think, 580 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you're working with a lot of residents who 581 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: are making progress toward their goals too. Yes, although residency, 582 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: so I've been in both places on the receiving end, 583 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: residency is very structured. So it's like you're on this 584 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: rotation and you're going to see these patients and at 585 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: the end of the day you're gonna write the notes 586 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: and like you can't really like not do it. Like However, 587 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: in a research lab, and I've been in multiple research labs, 588 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: I was not myself the world's best research trainee probably, 589 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: I would say, although I did not have a boss. 590 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: This amazing because I tended to work in whow I'm 591 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: really digressing, but I tended to work in bigger labs 592 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: where I didn't feel like there was that much time 593 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: for this much mentorship. So I first want to applaud 594 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: this person because oh my gosh, like this amount of 595 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: attention is just awesome, and the fact that she is 596 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: making an effort to like meet and have them set goals, 597 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: like I just think that's amazing. But what I was 598 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: getting at is like, if you are not getting a 599 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: lot of structure, it's very easy to just become very 600 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: lost in a research lab and maybe even just sort 601 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: of like not be accomplishing much but then not knowing 602 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: what else to do with your life, or like questioning 603 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: should you even be there, but like now you're in inertia, 604 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: and like I don't know, maybe that's what's going on 605 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: with some of her trainees. I also found myself thinking 606 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: about Gretchen Ridgmands for Tendencies big time, because this person 607 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: sounds like maybe she's an upholder and she's acknowledging that 608 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: she realizes that some of her trainees are not upholders, 609 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: and she probably does need to think about, well, maybe 610 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: some of them really are going to respond more to 611 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: out your accountability, not let's meet to review your goals, 612 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: but like we're setting goals together, and I would like 613 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: you to deliver x y z product to me, even 614 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: if it's a report on how you're doing on set 615 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: goals like x y z outcome by X date, some 616 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: people are going to respond much more to that very 617 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: concrete expectation like turn this more nebulous. Hey, you write 618 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: a paper into like step one, step two, step three, 619 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: step forward. So that's one idea that I have and 620 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: another one is again a little bit gretched and Ruben inspired. 621 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: But think about the questioner and make sure you're delving 622 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: into the why in terms of like what are these 623 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: postdocs or PhD students' goals? What is their end goal to, 624 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: how many papers do they want to get done, what 625 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: kind of job do they want to do at the end, 626 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: what do they want their career to look like? Are 627 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: they trying to go into industry? And if so, if 628 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: you can get to kind of like what it's their 629 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: end result, you can probably give them a pretty clear wealth. 630 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: Then you need to publish x amount of papers so 631 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 1: you can graduate an x time and impress this person 632 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: and maybe if they have a more concrete understanding of 633 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: what the path needs to look like, they are going 634 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: to be more motivated to take the small steps along 635 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: the way they need to get that path done. So 636 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I am no expert in this. I 637 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: can only think back to like my own experiences, but 638 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: it really does sound like you are doing awesome and 639 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: maybe just thinking a little bit more about how non 640 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: upholder types or maybe people who are not just as 641 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: naturally scientist types would want to set goals in these scenarios. Yeah, 642 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: I think the transition from you know, like people go 643 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: into science, you know, post doc research whatever. Like I mean, 644 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: maybe it's different with the postoc because those people already 645 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: got their PhD, but like, especially the people who are 646 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: moving towards that, it's like, you go into this because 647 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: you were always good at science and you're really smart. 648 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: But coming up with stuff that is completely new as 649 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: opposed to like following a set you know, path towards 650 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: something that somebody has kind of laid out and you're 651 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: now taking the next steps. It's hard. I mean I 652 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: see this all the time with people who've done very 653 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: well in school and then they come out it's like well, 654 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: now what do I do? I mean, I want to 655 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: make a career in doing X. But if there's no 656 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: straightforward path, then they get very lost for a while 657 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: because it's like, Okay, well what job do I get 658 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: where I can do this? And it's like, well, maybe 659 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: there isn't a job, Like maybe you have to make 660 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: your own thing, right, Like, I don't know. I come 661 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: at this from like there's nobody hiring somebody be a 662 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: time management expert as a full time job somewhere, Like I, 663 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: you know, have to come up with my own stuff. 664 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: And if I want to write books, like there's not 665 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: a place you get hired where you then write a book. 666 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like you have to figure it out 667 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: and pitch places and whatever. It's it's just far more 668 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: nebulous and open ended, and it can be a very 669 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: difficult transition if you are more accustomed to a straightforward path. 670 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: I'm not saying, you know, you don't have to be 671 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: a genius to make that leap. It's just a different, 672 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, mode of thought. And so some of this 673 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: awkwardness for people may be the difficulty with that transition. 674 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: But you know, some people really do like more straightforward stuff. 675 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: I mean they feel more sure with it. And if 676 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: that is the case, I do wonder if you know 677 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: you can steer your more self motivated people toward the 678 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: broad open world if we think there's stuff there and 679 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: you're going to go find it, and you're less self 680 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: motivated people toward the more workhorse research of your lab, 681 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: like you are ninety five percent sure there's something there 682 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: that you just have to, you know, redo what somebody 683 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: else did with a different twist on it, and now 684 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,719 Speaker 1: you know you're going to come up with results from that, 685 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: and odds are like, it's not going to be a 686 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,959 Speaker 1: breakthrough paper, but it could be published because it's a 687 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: new reasonable result, and so you might be able to 688 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: steer them toward that sort of work at least until 689 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: they get their sea legs and see the exact process 690 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: of having done this new research, produced a paper and 691 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: go from there. So that's just an idea you might do. 692 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. 693 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I've been talking with Tessa West about her book Jerks 694 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: at Work. We've also been talking about creative process and 695 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: then obviously in the question about you know, how people 696 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: can learn to set goals or figure out ways that 697 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: goal setting works for them, and we will be back 698 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: next week with more on making work and life fit together. 699 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 700 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 701 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 702 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 703 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and 704 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: life work together.