WEBVTT - Elon Gets $30 Billion to Stick Around, Boring is Largely Stuck 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:07.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:09.520 Let me tell you we have a new star. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:14.960 A star is born Elan On Mars Juthan Kennemy. He 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.520 is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.040 Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:21.800 I feel for the guy. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.319 I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.400 But those two percent that are nasty, they are our 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.480 pay in four fols, we were meant for great things 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.440 in the United States of America, and Elon reminds us 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.200 of that. I'm very disappointed in Elan. I've helped Elon 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:49.200 a lot. Welcome to Elan and Bloomberg's weekly podcast about 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:54.320 Elon Muskets, Tuesday, August fifth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. Okay, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.720 so here's this week's show. In three large numbers to 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.120 undred and forty three million dollars, thirty billion dollars, and 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.720 two point two billion dollars. The first is the amount 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.320 of money of Florida jury ordered Tesla to pay the 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.880 victims of a crash that took place when a driver 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:18.360 had autopilot engaged. The second is the quote introm Close 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.720 quotes Stock Award that Tesla's bord handed Elon yesterday. And 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.360 the third is the plunge in the estimated value, perhaps 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.720 the least loved of the Musk businesses, the boring Company. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.040 So we have an eclectic cast of characters to bring 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.960 you each segment, and we'll start with Elon Inks stalwarts 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.200 Dana Hall and Max Chafkin. Hello to you both. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.200 Hey, David, Hey Dana, Hey guys. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.720 And we have a special guest, professor Missy Cummings, who's 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.559 the director of Mason's Autonomy and Robotics Center at George 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:55.800 Mason University and who was a expert witness in this trial, 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:01.280 to talk about the Tesla autopilot rule link. Missy, Welcome 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:01.760 to the show. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:03.000 Thank you for having me. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.760 Okay, So, Dana, before we do tap into Missy's expertise, 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.440 here set the scene for us a little bit. What 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.080 happened on that day back in twenty nineteen, and what 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.440 exactly did the Florida jury say last week? 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.000 Yeah, so this You know, there are lots of autopilot crashes, 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.240 some have gotten enormous media attention, some have not. This 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.080 was a crash that occurred in twenty nineteen where the 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.480 driver of a Tesla. Basically, he was on hold with 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.760 an airline making a phone call, dropped his phone, reached 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.680 for his phone, and then managed to t bone a 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.760 parked car where a young couple was stargazing, killing the 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:48.200 woman and gravely injuring the man and the driver. You know, 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.880 already kind of settled with this family, but the family 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.639 sued Tesla. And surprisingly, we've had Tesla in a lot 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.799 of court cases, and often they settle before the eve 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.680 of trial. But this went to trial in Miami. Missy 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.519 was one of the witnesses, and the jury found Tesla 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.600 liable not just for damages but for punitive damages, which 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.240 I think is significant because even though the driver himself, 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.040 you know, testified that he had dropped his phone and 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.720 was distracted, the company itself was found liable. And it 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.280 was just an extraordinary case on so many measures. I mean, 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.320 I was not there in Miami, but you know, Missy, 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.200 like you were there, I mean, it was it was 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.160 what did you think when when the verdicts came out 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.240 and what did you specifically testify about? 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.320 Well, there were several expert witnesses, but my specific area 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:41.240 is AI expertise and then regulatory expertise. Since I had 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.800 worked at Nitze for a year, so you know, jury trials, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.040 you just never know. I got a good sense when 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:54.240 I was testifying because the jury was listening and you're 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.120 explaining technical concepts and you can see it, you know, 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.920 as a professor, I can see somebody check out fast 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.640 than anyone. But they were not checked out. They were 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:08.480 paying attention. And I think that they both understood the 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.280 technical issues which led to them finding Tesla. You know, 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.680 in this case, I think it was thirty three percent liable. 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.160 But I also think that the jury understood the punitive 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.000 damages were due to Tesla's cover up of a lot 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.000 of the data. And I think they got that too. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.559 Speak a little bit about the cover up of the data, 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.480 because that was a really wild thig. I know that 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.240 the attorney for the Benavitaz family made like an augmented 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.560 video that was based on what they were able to 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.039 extract from the onboard computer. And there was a hole 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.560 back and forth about did Tesla know that it have 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.080 this data or they did they hide it? How significant 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:46.440 was that? 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.680 I mean, it was deleted and we knew we could 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.719 see it in the files, but because we were able 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.640 to recover it it was undeniable. But we knew that 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.760 these augmented videos existed because I had been an expert 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:03.240 witness in other cases where I had seen the annotated video. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.840 This is a video of any crash that they have. 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.040 Your car records what's going in in the frontal camera view, 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.120 but it also records everything that it sees, and so 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.080 we know that this data exists. It exists for every 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.680 single Tesla, every single day. And so for Tesla to 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.200 try to cover this up, you know, I'm not an attorney, 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.080 but I thought it bordered on criminal. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.719 So they sought to cover it up by saying what that, Oh, 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.000 we don't simply don't have it. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.599 And yeah, they were trying not to give us the data. 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.159 And if it hadn't been for the digital forensics person 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.719 that we had on this, it would have gone unnoticed. 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.040 And why that's critical is we were able to show 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.680 what the car saw and what it quote unquote knew 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.920 was going to happen. So you know, with several seconds 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.720 to spare, the car saw the end of the road 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:58.280 coming and decided to project drivable space into the wilderness. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.039 So it knows that the the road is coming. It 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.000 has the map that knows it's coming, but still the 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.040 car decided to go ahead and drive in the wilderness. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.520 So even if this other car hadn't been there, the 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.480 car would have gone off the road. And indeed that 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.320 the computer vision system actually saw a car there and 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.680 never alerted the driver and never engaged the emergency braking system. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:28.719 Why isn't though Tesla's argument correct though that, and I 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.680 believe by the way other juries in the past have 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.840 found it to be that, hey, you know, autopilot is 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.680 there just to assist you. You are still the driver 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.599 and you need to be responsible for your vehicle and 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.919 paying attention and not looking for your phone when it 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.120 falls on the floor. 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.320 Yeah, well this came up in this case as well 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.200 as other ones in the past. Tesla has said that 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.760 in court often and perhaps in sort of legal back 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.120 and forth. But if you look at the messaging that 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.680 the company has employed, and this is part of the 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.280 reason why I think the jury and why many people 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.680 are sympathetic to some of these drivers who have taken 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.000 their eyes off the road while they're using autopilot or 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.960 full self driving. You know, we've seen cases of full 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.960 self driving also leading to issues, and it's because if 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.160 you like, listen to what Elon Musk says. You think 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.800 it's better than a human He says it all the time, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.560 and he continues to say it. Part of me thinks 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.240 that this case may start to undercut that story, just 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.800 because reading the details that came out here are so powerful. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:41.560 You have, as Missy is saying, a technological system that 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.560 is inadequate, and Missy's saying it saw the road. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:49.320 But yeah, but in fairness is this technology this is 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.480 six years old right from twenty nineteen, missy, Do you 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.480 have a sense how much progress their technology is made 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.720 from twenty nineteen to today? 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:03.320 Well, you know, so full self driving is in existence 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.000 today and it wasn't a product back then, and you can't. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.320 It's hard to separate out those two because the computer 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.600 vision system, for example, that works for autopilot is a 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.960 critical part of full self driving, and indeed, they were 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.920 using a lot of the data that they were getting 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:24.360 an autopilot mode to inform full self driving mode. What 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.640 I will tell you is, as a robotics professor, have 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:34.199 I seen a dramatic leap in capability from twenty nineteen 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:35.280 to twenty twenty five? 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:35.959 No? 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:41.640 Indeed, I think that what this case showed me as 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.360 an expert. Because I looked at all their testing documentation 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.000 or the lack thereof, I got news for you. Self 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.840 drive is not happening for them. I've seen under the covers, 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:57.840 and they're just their procedures, processes, what they value, what 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.360 they don't value in terms of testing, whther or not 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.400 you can do all this shadow testing, I see still 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:08.880 an extremely immature company that just does not know how 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.560 to build a safety critical technology. They've been able to 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:17.280 dodge responsibility up to now because the driver was the scapegoat, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.640 but when it's self driving happens, there's no scapegoat. It's 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:22.080 all them. 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.600 So Dan, we've alluded briefly here to the fact that 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.800 Tesla pushes back, of course, and they have worked very 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.680 hard to do so. What is their exact line, Well. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.080 Tesla argues that the driver is a fault because he 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.080 was distracted, and in their statement they say today's verdict 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.000 is wrong and only works to set back automotive safety 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.120 and jeopardize Tesla's and the entire industry's efforts to develop 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.760 and implement life saving technology. We plan to appeal given 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.520 the substantial errors of law and irregularities at trial. You know, 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.920 Tesla often blames the driver in these cases. But the 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.640 other thing that I think is really important to point 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.400 out is this was a unique case in that the 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.079 victim here was not the driver or the driver of 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.800 another vehicle. It was pedestrians. It was like a young 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.360 couple that had pulled over to like look at the stars. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.640 They did not sign up to be part of this experiment. 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.439 And that is that is like another whole aspect of this. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.439 So often in crash cases, it's what did the driver 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.120 do or not do? But these people were completely innocent. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.040 They were not even in their car, and they had 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.959 pulled over to the side. They were not even driving. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.800 It was a stationary object and behind some signs. They 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.440 parked behind something thinking that these signs would protect them. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:36.000 Yeah. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.720 Wow, okay, Missy, I was struck by something you said 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.640 a little bit earlier. Full self driving isn't happening for 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:48.080 them than being Tesla now. So much of the company's 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:54.040 nearly trillion dollar valuation is predicated on full self driving 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.520 happing for them and robotaxi being a thing. So there's that. 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:04.520 But moreover, Missy, there are already these vehicles buzzing around, 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:09.120 these robotaxies buzzing around in Austin and perhaps soon to 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.600 be in other cities. Should that worry. 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.439 Us, well, I think it's first of all, really important 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.480 words matter here. Full self driving is a product which 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.080 is recently had its name change to supervised full self driving, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.760 really because of all these lawsuits. Right, so I'd like 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.920 to distinguish between their product full self driving and actual 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.640 self driving, which is still not happening for them. They 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.960 have robotaxis in Austin, there's a person in the right seat, 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.880 there's remote operators, and in some cases we know that 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.960 there have been either leading or trailing cars that help 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:52.160 protect the envelope around the car. There's no legitimate self 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.880 driving car company that's on the road today with this 0:11:55.080 --> 0:12:00.200 amount of babysitting. Look, I'm telling you I'm a robots professor. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.920 Or they're using one sensor, one sensor stream to do everything. 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.840 One thing we know in robotics that is a super 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.880 bad idea in a stagey critical system, and it won't work. 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.400 It just is not going to work. I don't care 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.040 what they do with the software. I don't care how 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.480 much Dojo is in this. I don't care you know 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.839 whether or not he gets a gazillion dollar bonus from 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:27.400 the company. It's not going to happen because technically it 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.520 cannot happen for the kinds of systems and the kinds 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:35.080 of speeds that they're operating at. So, you know, be 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.520 my guest, but I'm going to put my child through 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.880 college on these expert witness fees if they continue, Missy. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.439 You know, Max and I have something of a running 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.240 debate slash feud on the show and off the show 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.800 about human drivers versus robot d robotic drivers and what 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.880 they can do. Max thinks humans are brilliant drivers. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.320 I'm not so sure about robots. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.280 Okay, I'm not so sure about that. Our lifetime's Missy, 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.199 will the four of us see a world in which 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.120 the robots are driving the vast, vast bulk of our vehicles? 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.160 Now, David, you owe me one hundred dollars? 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:13.599 No, I don't know. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.120 I also just want to make the point that, you know, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.280 Tesla really leans into this concept of Tesla Vision is 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.640 their system. They've got cameras and this incredible brain. But 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.720 I would just like to point out that humans don't 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:29.880 just drive with their eyes and their brain. You use 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.240 your ears, You listen to sound. You listen and you 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.920 feel the roadway, like driving is a multisensory experience. It's 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.600 not just your eyes, that's all. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.880 Waymou likes to say that they have safer drivers than 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.800 human their cars are safer than humans, which is debatable. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.320 But you also have to remember that all these cars 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.400 have teams of people from the Philippines watching their every move. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.800 If every single one of us had a remote operation 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.480 center watching our every single move, we'd all be better drivers. Right, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.679 So I wish people would stop making that comparison because 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:03.920 it's an Apple's to launches. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.160 All right, Missy, this was great. You will most certainly 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.400 have to come back and join us again. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:11.360 Would love to. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:23.520 Max Dana more Tesla News. Elon just was handed something 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.960 that we're calling an intram pay package. Max, this is 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:27.400 a billion. 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.200 This is a feel good story, I think for all 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.120 of us, all of us, Yeah, who just would like 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.920 to get paid more money? Elon Musk getting thirty billion 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.280 dollars come on over the next two years. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.080 Having I think over the last couple of. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.000 Years, anyway, done a questionable job leading Tesla, right, Like 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:46.960 the stock has not done super well. There's been a 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.920 swirl of controversies but lawsuits, as we've discussed. But of 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.400 course this award is not just about the last couple 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.840 of years. It's about this other stock award. The board 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.760 is attempting to sort of create a make good on 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.280 their pay package from twenty eighteen that was invalidated by 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.400 the Delaware court. So though although in some ways it 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.040 looks like a guy. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.840 Being paid for no. 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:16.200 Clear reason, it's actually an attempt to like recreate some 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.040 part of that gigantic pay package that he has yet 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:19.400 to receive. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.440 Yeah, so of course the ultimate valuation or value will 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.560 will be determined by the performance of the stock. But 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.600 give or take thirty billion dollars, so he gets this now, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.000 and what if lo and behold in that court case, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.360 they also say yeah you can in the end, all right, 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.320 yeah you can have that money. Does he get both packages? No, 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:41.040 he doesn't. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.080 The way this is written is if they somehow are 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.440 able to pay the original pay package, which the valuations 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.520 are all over the place because it kind of depends 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.040 on the stock price. But I think when we initially 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.920 talked about this it was in the fifty billion ish range. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.840 It's it's been worth I think a bit more at 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:04.080 various times. If that package is somehow approved because of 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.080 appeals or whatever, then this package would be invalidated. This 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.480 is only valid if Elon Musk does not get that 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.720 one and he works at Tesla for the next two years, 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.600 and then the intent is to give him another giant 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:24.120 pay package for his current work, because again this is 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.600 a backwards as we're talking about work that has already 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:27.240 been performed. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.480 Yeah, this is like an interim pay package to keep 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.040 Elon focused on Tesla while the Special Committee of the 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:37.440 board works on a new pay package to incentivize him 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.880 going forward. And this is all because you know, the 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.200 pay package was invalidated by the judge in Delaware, then 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.760 Tesla appealed to the Delaware Supreme Court. That appeal process 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:49.560 is taking forever. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:49.960 I think. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.000 Originally, you know, we all hope that maybe we would 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.040 get a resolution to that sometime this year, but it's 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:56.920 still going on. So, like they need to give him 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.480 something because from the board's perspective and a lot of 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.200 the retail shareholders, they're like, Elon hasn't been paid since, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.440 you know, for years. He deserves to. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.359 Get Like how is he how is he living and 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:08.800 eating and paying rent back? 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:10.919 The other thing you remember is that you know, on 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.719 the one hand, this is about pay and like giving 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.560 Elon ninety six million shares dilutes everybody else. But for Elon, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.359 it's also about control. I mean, he's been very public 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.280 about the fact that he's worried about activist shareholders and 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.360 he wants more control, and the more shares he gets, 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:29.720 the more control he has. 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.760 But that's kind of a hilarious concern, his concern about control, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.680 given that he effectively controls Tesla today. I mean, yeah, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.720 he only has something like twelve percent of the equity 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.920 in the company, But as we've talked about a million times, 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.080 he can say whatever he wants and it basically happens. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.560 Okay, Dan, we will say goodbye to you and we'll 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:52.359 see you next week. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:52.959 Thank you. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:17:59.159 All. 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.679 Right Now, Max and I are joined by Kyle Porter, 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:07.000 who covers transport industrials in space for us here at Bloomberg. Kyle, 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:07.919 Welcome to the show. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:09.119 Thanks for having me, guys. 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.480 Now, Kyle, you had a really good piece the other 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.240 day about the boring Company. 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:14.520 Max. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.840 The boring company. You guys were just talking about all 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.200 of a sudden boring everywhere, Boring everywhere. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.359 It's the forgotten Elon Musk Company to stomach scent. Although 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.879 here we are talking about it. Uh, this is a 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:26.520 second week in. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.159 A row, back to back boring. Yeah, So, Kyle, just 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.439 to begin at the very beginning here for the uninitiated, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.280 remind us what the Boring Company is and does. 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.600 The Boring Company is a nearly decade old effort by 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:47.199 Musk to reinvent public transportation, in this instance by digging 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.800 tunnels in which he will put his teslas underground and 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.520 whisk you around without traffic. 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.800 Now, Kyle, I liked your piece quite a bit. In 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.720 your piece, titled Elon Musk's Boring Company is Turning into 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.600 a nine hundred million dollar flop, begins with a fantastic 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.119 anecdote at the beginning there that really sets the scene 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.320 and tells us a lot about the state of affairs 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.000 there at the company. Right now, tell us about it. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.280 Yeah, it was September thirtieth. In fact, it was completely unplanned. 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.400 Everyone boring factory got told on thirty minutes notice, get 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.879 out to the boudego across the road. Elon's doing an 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.640 all hands. People were very excited. They hadn't really seen 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.680 him on site all year. So they paraded across. Then 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.520 Elon spent the next hour talking about why everyone needs 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.600 to vote for Trump, how great it's going to be 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.960 for SpaceX and its regulatory burden, was asking for ideas 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.679 from the crowd, was asking for volunteers, for people to 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.800 go to swing states, including Pennsylvania, and then he wrapped 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.199 up his talk, took a few more questions, and went 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.840 across the SpaceX didn't even bother visiting the factory. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.680 So how about that, Bax, You don't see the guy forever. 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.360 He shows up and let's talk about everything, but what 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:57.840 you're doing day in and day out. 0:19:58.160 --> 0:19:58.960 I mean, here's the thing. 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.760 If it were a normal there would be nothing even 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.120 the least bit unusual about that. I'd say. The thing 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.760 that is interesting is it really cuts against the Elon 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.800 Musk mythology, which is like he's in the factory, he's 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:17.399 personally evaluating the tunnel machines or whatever. And of course 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.720 it also the anecdote and the fact that he's just 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.040 all he wanted to talk about was politics or whatever 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.119 and space Yeah, it emphasizes this idea that like he 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:32.480 started the Boring Company in twenty seventeen and at the 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.960 time it kind of seemed like a joke and it's 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.479 now Yeah, and now it feels like a joke that 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.359 has sort of gotten old or something. Right. I mean, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.640 they just haven't been able to do all that much. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.000 And Kyle's story makes that point. I mean, there's really 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.800 just like one actual example of a project, which is 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.119 the Vegas Loop, which, for lots of reasons that we 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.680 can talk about, you know, has not worked out all 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.879 that well, although you know, I guess to the credit 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:02.360 of the boring company, like it's there. You can definitely 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.399 go from the Westgate Hotel to like one side of 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.440 the Las Vegas Convention Center or another. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.560 Now, yeah, Kyle, there there is the Vegas thing. 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:11.520 You said that. 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.720 There's also some test tunnel they did in California. Yeah, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.439 that was the original, the original tunnel. I see. And 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.600 how long or short is that one? 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.120 Uh? I think they're looking less than two miles. I'd 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:24.800 have to double tuck. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.159 Have the length, Yeah, have the length of the vaunted 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.280 Vegas Tunnel. Now, in your story, you talk about how 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.200 actually a lot of the work, the only work perhaps 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.320 by work, I mean actual digging work they're doing, is 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:42.240 underneath Musk's home and his businesses. In Texas. Tell us 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:42.679 about that. 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.560 Oh yeah, it's a little bit internal work. Well, there's 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.159 two tunnels currently operation, one of which is the Cyber 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.960 trop Tunnel, which, as it sounds, may have cyber trucks 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.720 out from the Testi factory. And there's an awful lot 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:56.199 of videos you can go and look at online at 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:57.400 how impressive it is. 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:58.240