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Speaker 1: On November two, nineteen eighty seven, at one point fifteen

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Speaker 1: am and eighta, Oklahoma. The victim felt a gun at

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Speaker 1: the back of her head as she unlocked the door

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Speaker 1: to her home. She was pushed inside, robbed and raped

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Speaker 1: by a black man who was described as between five

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Speaker 1: seven and six two, wearing a hat, a jacket, and

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Speaker 1: perhaps a gold tooth. Detectives filmed a crime Stoppers re

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Speaker 1: enactment video about the robbery and rape, and they approached

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Speaker 1: Perry Lot, who was parked nearby. While they asked him

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Speaker 1: a few questions about his whereabouts during the incident, they

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Speaker 1: noticed that he had a gold tooth and Perry, a

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Speaker 1: bit of a lady's man, explained that he was in

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Speaker 1: the area to see his girlfriend, but had been with

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Speaker 1: his fiancee from three thirty pm on November first through

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Speaker 1: six thirty am the following morning. Despite his alibi, police

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Speaker 1: brought him in for further questioning. There they put him

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Speaker 1: into a lineup and the rest of the men were

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Speaker 1: given get this gold foil from a nearby florist to

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Speaker 1: simulate having a gold tooth. The victim not surprisingly identified

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Speaker 1: Perry Lot that in there as her attacker. A rape

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Speaker 1: kit had been done the morning of the incident, but

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty seven, DNA technology was not yet available

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Speaker 1: to exclude mister Lott as it later would, and Perry

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Speaker 1: Lott tragically was sentenced to three hundred years for rape, robbery, burglary,

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Speaker 1: and making a bomb threat related to the incident. In

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Speaker 1: this episode, which was recorded at an art show opening

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Speaker 1: featuring the work of an innocent man on death row

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Speaker 1: in Texas, rob Will, we interviewed Perry Lott and Eric Cullin,

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Speaker 1: the private investigator that was originally tasked with taking Perry's

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Speaker 1: DNA swap, only to end up becoming one of his

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Speaker 1: fiercest and most loyal advocates. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to wrongful Conviction. We have two incredible gentlemen in

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Speaker 1: the studio with me today, and the studio is not

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Speaker 1: even a studio, But I'll tell you more about that later.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I'll save the best for last. We

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Speaker 1: have Eric Cullen, private investigator who has played an active

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Speaker 1: role in more reversals now that I can count on

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Speaker 1: probably both hands. It's great to have you here. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here.

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Speaker 1: And with Eric is a gentleman who he was instrumental

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Speaker 1: in helping to free an individual who served three decades

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Speaker 1: thirty one years in prison for a crime he didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: DNA proved it. Perry, Welcome the show. I'm really honored

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Speaker 1: to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Greetings, Jason is very exciting to be here at Also,

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Speaker 3: I've been looking forward to this for some months now.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's awesome. And after thirty one years in prison

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Speaker 1: and this is your first first ever, it's very excited.

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Speaker 1: So we can call this the exclusive interview with very lot. Yeah, Perry,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning. First of all, your

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Speaker 1: case took place in Ada, Oklahoma, and Aida has become

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Speaker 1: synonymous with wrongful convictions. Yes, sir, because John Grisha exposed

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Speaker 1: the fact that there were six wrongful convictions in the

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Speaker 1: space of just over a year in this tiny town,

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Speaker 1: and those were profiled in his book An Innocent Manner,

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Speaker 1: Four of them were and you happen to fall into

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Speaker 1: that town not knowing that it was I mean a trap, right,

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Speaker 1: And you were a young man at the time, twenty

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Speaker 1: four years old. Twenty four years old. You still look

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Speaker 1: pretty young for what it's worth.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I grew old and didn't know it.

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Speaker 1: In this case, it has a lot of the common

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Speaker 1: factors that we see in wrongful conviction cases. Of course,

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Speaker 1: as the most common factor, I witness miss identification across

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Speaker 1: racial eye witness misidentification, which we know are even more

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Speaker 1: unreliable than same race, and those are notoriously unreliable, and they

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Speaker 1: played a factor in the higher percentage of wrongful conviction

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Speaker 1: cases than anything else. So let's go back to when

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Speaker 1: this happened and how it happened. Because you were teaching

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Speaker 1: school at the time.

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Speaker 3: Right, and moved to Aden in Wisconsin. And in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six, around Christmas time, I get a call from

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Speaker 3: an old girlfriend in a Toka, Oklahoma, and I was

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Speaker 3: between jobs, you know, feeling kind of bad about my surroundings,

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Speaker 3: seeing a lot of negativity that I didn't want to

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Speaker 3: get involved with. So relocating Oklahoma was my option, my

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Speaker 3: best option, and that's what I did. I went to Oklahoma,

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Speaker 3: ended up in a Toka, worked there for a couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks, found a better job in Ada, and moved

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Speaker 3: to Ada. And that was the beginning of my sorrows.

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Speaker 1: That's a very eloquent way of putting it. Eric I

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Speaker 1: want to turn to you for a second, So can

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Speaker 1: you take us back to this case. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: was a horrible crime. The local woman in Ada had

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Speaker 1: her home broken into after one in the morning. The

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Speaker 1: assailant pushed her into her house, stole money from her purse,

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Speaker 1: and did unspeakable things to her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the victor always contended to police and testified

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Speaker 2: the trial that she received several prank calls at her home,

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Speaker 2: harassing calls.

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Speaker 3: I think she might have stated.

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Speaker 2: Then she goes to work, which is basically across the street,

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Speaker 2: to a restaurant she managed called Arby's. There she works

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Speaker 2: her complete shift or just about her complete shift, and

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Speaker 2: she claims that a bomb threat was levied by the

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Speaker 2: same voice that had been calling her harassing at her

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Speaker 2: home all day.

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Speaker 1: Now, sound like a horror movie, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so she clears her store, calls the police,

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Speaker 2: no bomb. They go ahead and close the store down,

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Speaker 2: and she claims again that the same caller calls the

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Speaker 2: store again and asked why she closed the store down.

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Speaker 2: I told you I was going to blow the place

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Speaker 2: up if you didn't close.

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Speaker 3: The store down.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the building never blew up. That's what she

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Speaker 2: contended all the way through trial. Then she goes at

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Speaker 2: approximately one one thirty home back across the street. That's

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Speaker 2: where she testified that one Blackmail had pushed her in

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Speaker 2: her home, put a condom on and raped her and

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Speaker 2: then took upwards of two hundred dollars from her purse.

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Speaker 2: And then she also claims, of course she lost deposit

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Speaker 2: receipts from the RB's close out cash.

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Speaker 1: To right, and he did other disgusting things. There was

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Speaker 1: a picture of her daughter in the house that he

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Speaker 1: apparently yes, had sort of you know, did sexual things

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Speaker 1: to the photograph and like very very bizarre character. Whoever

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Speaker 1: this guy was correct, That's what she testified to Perry.

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Speaker 1: Did you know anything about this crime? He is a

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Speaker 1: small community. Did it get the word get around?

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Speaker 3: I did not know anything about the crime when I

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Speaker 3: was first approached by Officer Crosby. I was in that

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Speaker 3: area of the crime scene, but I had no idea

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Speaker 3: crime had been committed. I had no idea who this

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Speaker 3: woman was.

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Speaker 1: And remember that name Crosby, everyone who's listening, because that's

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Speaker 1: going to be a crazy development as we go on

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Speaker 1: with this story. So in this case, we know that

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Speaker 1: the eyewitness misidentification was not inadvertence, right, it wasn't an accident.

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Speaker 1: She was steered as probably too light of a word

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Speaker 1: to describe how they ended up convincing her to identify you.

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Speaker 1: And we know that the mind is not a camera.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think that you see something,

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Speaker 1: you recognize it, you remember it. That's not the way

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Speaker 1: it works at all. And of course, again in the

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Speaker 1: cross racial situation, it's even more prone to mistakes. But

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Speaker 1: the victim had described that her assailant had a gold

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Speaker 1: tooth or half a gold tooth, right.

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Speaker 3: That's what they say personally. I don't believe she ever

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Speaker 3: mentioned the gold tooth in her initial description of her assailant,

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Speaker 3: mainly because of this. I seen the police report where

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Speaker 3: the victim, it was a description at the very end

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Speaker 3: was a gold tooth like it had been added on.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't able to identify his hair color or tighte

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Speaker 1: because he wore a hat, and he wore a jacket

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Speaker 1: and things like that. And her description was so general

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Speaker 1: that she said that it was just a black male

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Speaker 1: between five seven and six two. That describes most people, right.

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Speaker 3: That describes entirely the whole black community mostly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how did it get from there to where Perry

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Speaker 1: ends up in a lineup. He had an alibi on

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Speaker 1: top of everything else, a very solid alibi, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they didn't care about that. No.

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Speaker 2: How they landed on Perry was they were doing a

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Speaker 2: recreation of the crime for a show called Crime Stoppers

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Speaker 2: down there at the time, they would run on unsolved

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Speaker 2: crimes or you know, fresh crimes even and they were

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Speaker 2: filming that day. Perry had been in the neighborhood visiting

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Speaker 2: someone just a block away. He goes, turns the corner

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Speaker 2: and sees these camera crews up there and he stops

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Speaker 2: on the side of the road to watch. Detective Crosby

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Speaker 2: goes and approaches Ferry at the car, notices the gold tooth,

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Speaker 2: and it's all downhill from there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you voluntarily went into the police station, and I

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Speaker 1: imagine when you went in there you probably thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just going in and tell them what

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Speaker 1: I know and go home.

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Speaker 3: Yes, sir, like I said, mister Crosby came and approached

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Speaker 3: me that night. They questioned me for hours at the

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Speaker 3: police station, search my car, search my home, took me

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Speaker 3: back to the police station, released me with the words

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Speaker 3: you can go home, but don't leave town. So I

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Speaker 3: went home and my fiance was there, and evidently they

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Speaker 3: had questioned her while they were questioning me, And we

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Speaker 3: had a lot of tizzy, a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: spot because I just recently came to her home from Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: and now she's hearing that, Hey, your boyfriend might be

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Speaker 3: a rapist, you know, so of course she's going to

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Speaker 3: be on age somewhat. That next morning, at work, I

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Speaker 3: was approached by Crosby again, would you mind helping us out?

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Speaker 3: We need to need you to be in a lineup.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, I'm just doing what any average citizen

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Speaker 3: would do, doing what my dad had always taught me

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Speaker 3: to do, is obey the police, cooperate, don't get disrespectful.

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Speaker 3: So I'll go to the police station with them and

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Speaker 3: participate in his lineup.

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Speaker 1: Right, And then it's almost comical to think that they

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Speaker 1: had this said. There's nothing funny about it. They took

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Speaker 1: the other man that they put in a lineup and

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Speaker 1: put aluminum foil as if to simulate a gold tooth

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Speaker 1: in their mouth. But you were the only one that

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Speaker 1: actually had a gold tooth, that's right. Plus they had

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Speaker 1: you say the words that she said she had.

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Speaker 3: Heard and after the lineup he comes with a shit

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Speaker 3: eat and green on his face. Yeah she picked you out,

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Speaker 3: said what she picked me? Yeah, she picked you, And

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Speaker 3: I'm right there. I'm just in a whirlpool of confusion.

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Speaker 3: So I'm in the city jail for a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 3: you know, screaming, Hey, I didn't do this, you guys

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Speaker 3: making a mistake. Nobody heard that, nobody wanted to hear that.

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Speaker 3: They moved me across the street to the county jail,

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Speaker 3: and I stayed there for a couple of months at

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Speaker 3: least the quarter point of attorney never came to see me,

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Speaker 3: never knew who I was until just right before time

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Speaker 3: for appearances in court. His name was Frank Baber, and

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Speaker 3: me being so naive since I didn't do this, I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking this is the easiest flipping over a pancake to

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Speaker 3: get me out of this situation. It's so much that

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Speaker 3: he allowed to go on that I now know he

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Speaker 3: should have been object I think it's like, hey, are

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Speaker 3: you on my side or are you on their side?

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Speaker 3: That's what I was thinking in my head because at

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Speaker 3: the time, even being totally unaware of what the law says,

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Speaker 3: you get a feeling as a defendant, if someone is

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Speaker 3: vigorously trying to defend you, I didn't get that feeling.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like it was more processing you than defending your processing.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Did you hold out any hope that they were going

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Speaker 1: to find you innocent?

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Speaker 3: Or I had always thought they would find me innocent

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Speaker 3: because I knew that they had no evidence of me

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Speaker 3: doing anything. I knew that I had not done anything.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking that this is gone all the way up

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Speaker 3: into picking the jewelry, and you guys still think I

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Speaker 3: did this. How can you think I did this? What

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Speaker 3: I did not know at the time was that eye

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Speaker 3: witnessed testimony was considered evidence. That's what me. I'm sitting

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Speaker 3: there thinking, Okay, where's the rake kit, where's the fingerprints,

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Speaker 3: where's the picture that you say was taken out of

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Speaker 3: the home? Where's the money that you say was missing.

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Speaker 3: I was flat broke at the time. Hell, when they

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Speaker 3: searched my house, they found a twenty dollar bill that

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Speaker 3: my fiance had hidden in her dresser and it floated

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Speaker 3: to the floor. Now I asked Jeff Crosby, I said,

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Speaker 3: can I have that? And he says, yeah, you can

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Speaker 3: have that. So I picked up that twenty dollar bill

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Speaker 3: and put it in my pocket. I didn't know better,

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Speaker 3: so I ended up in prison. And the trial lasted

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Speaker 3: all of eight hours.

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Speaker 1: Eight hours.

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Speaker 3: The trial lasted less than a.

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Speaker 1: Working day, and you were sentenced to three hundred years three.

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Speaker 3: Years consecutive sentences, four charges, four different sentences, one hundred,

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Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty and fifty for rape, robbery, burglary,

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Speaker 3: and bomb threatening.

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Speaker 1: Three hundred years. It's such a preposterous concept. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's the idea that we even do that in this country.

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Speaker 1: Here the sense is a thousand years, and Oklahoma is

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Speaker 1: notorious for these and again I'm not minimizing the nature

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Speaker 1: of the crime. But Jesus Christ anyway, Eric.

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Speaker 2: An interesting side note free trial. I think it's interested

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Speaker 2: back to how they were doing things in pot of

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Speaker 2: Talk County. Eight of Williamson and Fritz were in jail

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Speaker 2: with Perrys.

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Speaker 1: And Williamson and Fritz were two of the men that

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Speaker 1: were profiled in the John Grisham, the only nonfiction book

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Speaker 1: that John has ever written, The Innocent Man, and John

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Speaker 1: told me John was on wrongful conviction. He said that

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Speaker 1: when he wrote that book, he had to write it

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Speaker 1: as nonfiction, he says, because when I write fiction, I

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Speaker 1: have to make it believable, and he goes the story.

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Speaker 1: The audience is not going to follow. Al I'm going

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Speaker 1: to lose my readers because this doesn't make any logical sense.

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Speaker 1: And Williamson and Fretz such an unbelievably tragic case of

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Speaker 1: two men wrongfully convicted and one of whom lost his

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Speaker 1: mind in prison and just months after he was released

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Speaker 1: ended up dead, really really sad, and he had been

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Speaker 1: an open age pitching prospect, he had his life ahead

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Speaker 1: of him. And the whole thing is a tragedy on

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Speaker 1: top of a tragedy, not to mention that there was

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Speaker 1: no justice for the victim, which was a rape and

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Speaker 1: murder case. And I want to go back to this

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Speaker 1: eye witness identification. If you, the listener, end up on

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Speaker 1: a jury and you have a pery lot in front

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Speaker 1: of you, you're in a criminal case and there's no

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Speaker 1: evidence except eyewitness identification. You should keep this in mind.

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Speaker 1: And I'm quoting from the amazing book Convicting the Innocent

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Speaker 1: by Brandon Garrett, which is sort of like the Bible

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Speaker 1: of wrongful conviction. Causes and practices that lead to them,

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Speaker 1: he said it. Many DNA ex on cases involving mistaken

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Speaker 1: eyewitnesses involved the use of suggestive identification procedures. A study

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Speaker 1: of the first two hundred and fifty DNA exonerations revealed

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Speaker 1: that an incredible eighty eight percent of the mistaken witness

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Speaker 1: exonerations involved either factors that are known to affect the

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Speaker 1: reliability of the identification, some suggestiveness in the identification procedure,

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Speaker 1: or both, And in this case it was both. So

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Speaker 1: the jury comes in.

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Speaker 3: It was the most surreal moment of my life. When

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Speaker 3: the jury came back and they found me guilty, all

291
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Speaker 3: I could do was stare in the space. I was

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Speaker 3: just sitting there in shock. And when they started reading

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Speaker 3: off the terms one hundred years, one hundred years, I

294
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Speaker 3: was paralyzed, wondering, what how can they be allowed to

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Speaker 3: count more than a person can actually live? If I

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Speaker 3: die in prison, you're still going to make me do time,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's like you said, it just

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Speaker 3: don't make sense to give a person more time than

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Speaker 3: a lifespan, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Right? And in case you come back to life, maybe

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Speaker 1: they want to back and then you have to come

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Speaker 1: back to life of these a couple of times and

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Speaker 1: still live a long life. Each thing is ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: I had a discussion with Eric just last night. I said,

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Speaker 3: you know, they should take the sentence and portion of

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Speaker 3: the trial out of the jury's hands because they are citizens.

307
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Speaker 3: They get emotional, They are angry when they get the

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Speaker 3: details of these crimes. Whether it's coherst or whether it's fabricated,

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Speaker 3: or whether it's just plain fact. These people have emotional

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Speaker 3: attachments to that, and that's why they give people these

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Speaker 3: ex financial amounts of time. When you know, one hundred

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Speaker 3: years is enough to see a person die in prison,

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Speaker 3: but you want to.

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Speaker 1: Go overkill and even the just breaking it down to

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Speaker 1: the granular level, just the idea that they sends you

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Speaker 1: to fifty years for robbery and the robbery was one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty dollars, right or whatever it was, two

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Speaker 1: hundred dolls like that, I mean.

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Speaker 2: In fifty for the bumb threat. Additionally fifty the.

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Speaker 1: Bumb threat as well. Yeah, and we know, of course

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Speaker 1: that these threats went on, and there were other cases

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Speaker 1: after Perry was arrested and convicted, where whoever the actual

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Speaker 1: perpetrator was continued with the same memo, which should be

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Speaker 1: not even a red flag should be a flashing red

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Speaker 1: light where they go, hold up, this is we got

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Speaker 1: were bucked up, you know what I mean. But that's

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Speaker 1: not what happened. So you get take into prison.

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Speaker 3: Yes, prison life. After sitting in the county jail for

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Speaker 3: four or five months, you're kind of glad to go

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Speaker 3: to prison. So it's a real messed up thing in

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Speaker 3: the mind.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's like they say, the eyes will play tricks on you.

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Speaker 3: After a certain amount of time, with a traumatic situation

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Speaker 3: or unfamiliar situation, the mind will start playing tricks on

336
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 3: you to you hear things, you see things, you imagine things.

337
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 3: So once I did get in the doc system, I

338
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 3: was glad to have a bed. I was glad to

339
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Speaker 3: have fresh clothes, a shower, movement of the things you

340
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 3: don't get in the counter jail. So that took a

341
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Speaker 3: lot of pressure off of what I was going through

342
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Speaker 3: at the time.

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Speaker 1: Then I think most people don't realize, but I hear

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Speaker 1: from so many of the exogneries that jails are worse

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Speaker 1: than the prisons, and it's actually logical when you think

346
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Speaker 1: about it. I think people if they're the word jail,

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Speaker 1: they think of like the classic thing in the movies

348
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Speaker 1: where it's like a country place and they.

349
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Speaker 3: Ain't like Barney and Andy like that.

350
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Speaker 1: So you know, like that, it's true all over the country.

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Speaker 1: In jails, it's just a powder cake because everybody's in

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Speaker 1: the cell together. There's no recreation, there's no education, there's

353
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Speaker 1: no release of anything, there's no outdoors, there's nothing so

354
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Speaker 1: and as you said, no clean clothes. I mean, it's

355
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Speaker 1: really and it's designed to break people and actually make

356
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Speaker 1: them confess the crimes that didn't commit just to go home.

357
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Speaker 1: These places are dirty, they're incubators of disease.

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Speaker 3: They wouldn't worship on my worst ending.

359
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Speaker 2: A lot of informant Joie Howson snitch stuff comes out

360
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Speaker 2: of that environment too.

361
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Speaker 1: But now you went to the prison and your sentenced

362
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Speaker 1: to well life because three hundred years, you know you

363
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: weren't going to live that long. It's a miracle you

364
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: lived through this whole experience in the first place.

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Speaker 3: It surely is. I went in at twenty four years old,

366
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Speaker 3: waited three or four years for the direct appeal. Once

367
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Speaker 3: that was affirmed, I had no idea how the hell they.

368
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Speaker 1: Affirmed that affirmed your conviction.

369
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Speaker 3: How do you do that with the facts all laid out,

370
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 3: I should have been home after three or four. I

371
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 3: knew enough about law to know that what the jury

372
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Speaker 3: says is what the jury says. However, that's what the

373
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Speaker 3: appeal process is for, correctly, to rectify what the jury

374
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 3: in the courtroom allowed that should never been allowed. When

375
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Speaker 3: I was affirmed, I knew that I had a war

376
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Speaker 3: on my hands. I had to become my own attorney

377
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: because my family could not afford to help me. They

378
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 3: were so far away in Wisconsin. I was basically by

379
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 3: myself against the state. I like to point out the

380
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 3: people when I talk to them about this, when it

381
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 3: says lot versus state, it's just like Oklahoma versus Texas.

382
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 3: You're at war. I had to learn as quick as possible,

383
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: as much as possible about what avenues is going to

384
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Speaker 3: get me set free, because now I am here and

385
00:21:53,280 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 3: it doesn't have a back door. Well, once I got

386
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,479
Speaker 3: to about twelve fifteen years in, I started losing it.

387
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 3: I started losing hope. I started thinking I just might

388
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Speaker 3: die in here. And two thousand and two was the

389
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 3: first time I went up for parole. Nothing changed. In

390
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: two thousand and five, I had a near death experience

391
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: with staff infection. That's why I am partially disabled now.

392
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 3: Staff infection had gotten into my system. I didn't even

393
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 3: know what staff was, so it lingered in my body,

394
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: actually got into my blood and mercered and attached to

395
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 3: my spinal cord in my neck. It was eating through

396
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 3: the vertebrae in my net, exposed a few nerves, and

397
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 3: I'm lucky to be alive. So two thousand and five

398
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: I was hospitalized. So they skipped over my parole hearing. Yes, yes,

399
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 3: they totally skipped over my parole hearing, so I had

400
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 3: to wait until two thousand and eight. That was probably

401
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 3: the only time I ever considered dying in prison, and

402
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 3: that was two thousand and five. Between two thousand and

403
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 3: five and two thousand and eight, I saw and I

404
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 3: sensed that I wasn't ever going to be released by

405
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: this parole board.

406
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: Ouse they probably wanted you to admit guil right.

407
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: I wrote a letter, thinking that if I admit to

408
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 3: this crime, they just may give me some relief, because

409
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: in prison, you are under the impression that they want

410
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 3: some kind of remorse, they want some kind of confession,

411
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 3: They want to see you broke down, especially when you've

412
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 3: been claiming to be innocent. So I'm thinking I'm going

413
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 3: to give them what they want. I'm going to manipulate

414
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: my way out of here. That's after so many years

415
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: of being in you start thinking like this, Well, the

416
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: truth isn't working, so now I'm going to lie and

417
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: see if that'll do anything. Well. Between two thousand and

418
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: eight and twenty eleven, the Innocence Project took my case.

419
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: The first thing I did was told my attorneys, hey,

420
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 3: look we got an issue. I've already confessed to these crimes.

421
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 3: I didn't do them, but I confessed to them trying

422
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: to manipulate and got the letters retracted, and we explained

423
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: why I did that. It was kind of like a duress,

424
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: and that was probably the last time I had given

425
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: up hope. But prior to that, I had already started

426
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 3: feeling like it's hopeless against this. There's no way I'm

427
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: going to be a I mean, I have done a

428
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: stack of briefs like this on my case, and good

429
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: good law work, proslit againt law work, and nothing ever worked.

430
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: I said, damn, you know the law is written. Why

431
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: aren't you guys giving me some relief?

432
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: Why aren't you actually paying attention to the laws that.

433
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: Were Everything in the law says that I should be

434
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: getting some kind of relief from the state. You guys

435
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: never really proved anything here. Why am I in prison?

436
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: What connection do you have other than this high witness testimony?

437
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: Being denied so many times was detrimental because when you

438
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: feel like you have no hope of ever reaching anybody

439
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: with the truth, you become something different. And if you

440
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: don't have good people around you to help you get

441
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: your mind right, you're going to become part of that

442
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: prison and you're never going to leave. It's kind of

443
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: like the soft Shank prediction where the guy says, these

444
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 3: walls do something to you. They do.

445
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, that movie had a profound effect on me and

446
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: so many other people. Nobody's listening. The Innocence Project gets involved,

447
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: that's obviously a huge development.

448
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: That's the only time I regained hope.

449
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: Yep.

450
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 3: Actually I took my hands off the wheel when I knew.

451
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: When you hear the word Innocence Project in prison, you

452
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: know you got the kind of help you need. That

453
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: place is synonymous with God when you're an innocent person,

454
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: the Innocence Project, when you hear that name, you you

455
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: know you're going home.

456
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: Wow, that's heavy. It's great to hear. Having been there

457
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: myself for twenty five twenty six years, it's amazing. I

458
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: never heard it put that way before, but it's great

459
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: to hear. That obviously means a lot. So instance project

460
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: gets involved. How did you get involved, Erek, and how

461
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: did you help to resolve this? And how the hell

462
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 1: is he here instead of serving another two hundred and

463
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: seventy something years or two hundred and sixty eight to

464
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 1: be exact.

465
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 3: That's my champion right there. Man.

466
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: So I was working on some other post conviction cases

467
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: and Karen Thompson had reached out to me on a

468
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: referral from some lawyers that I was working with on

469
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: those cases. So in twenty thirteen, Karen wanted me to

470
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: simply go meet Perry at Dick Connor in prison and

471
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: take his DNA sample and then of course to get

472
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: that sample to sell Mark, which is who the Innocence

473
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: Project uses to test their.

474
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: DNA by the DNA lab very fast lab.

475
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: They're the best. And in the meantime Karen winahead and

476
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: assigned me some other duties. One of those things was

477
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: to find an alternate suspect and find the individual who

478
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: actually did this. Well, I spent a lot of time

479
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: doing that and doing my own covert methods of obtaining DNA,

480
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: such as posing as somebody from a casino with you know,

481
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: I've pulled this guy's trash that I thought, you know,

482
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: I've done it, and he's a big casino guy. I

483
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: show up the gift guard, Hey, lick this envelope. We

484
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: actually went that far, you know, tested it in the

485
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: whole bit and a gift card trick.

486
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: That's good, yeah, yeah, and.

487
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: So but it was very disheartening. Uh, this guy been

488
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: acquitted of two rapes I think one one dismissal and

489
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 2: one a quttle, all within this somewhat of a similar

490
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: mL and man, we were pretty confident it was him,

491
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: and of course a little heartbroken to find out it was.

492
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: And but then again, we don't want to be part

493
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: of wrongfully accusing people either, so that we moved on

494
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: from this guy, and so we continue to move along

495
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: the whole time, though in the mean meantime, Karen is

496
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: constantly trying to get the DA from Potna Talk County.

497
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: Who's this guy that's been there since the Williamson Frint

498
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: Fontinea Award days. They're just so stuck, I mean, in

499
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,239
Speaker 2: their ways, and Karen trying to budget him just to cooperate. Well,

500
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: let's at least let my investigator interview this victim. And so,

501
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: long story short, Finally Detective Crosby, who's still there as well,

502
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: finds the victim and it was agreed upon that he

503
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: and I would go interview her together.

504
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: And this is where shit gets real and he gets

505
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: real real. So tell us about that.

506
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we agreed that he would go first and

507
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: I wouldn't interrupt him, and I would go last and

508
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: he wouldn't interrupt me. We get in there, the victim

509
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: says that going along with a whole bit, everything's the same,

510
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: nothing's really changed today as I sit here, and then

511
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: at some point, of course, me being in the room,

512
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: I've done no telling how many interviews have individuals, from

513
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 2: defendants to suspects. You just get the body language. Part two.

514
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: You can't really read in the transcript. I could see

515
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: something change in her body language that was very much

516
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: in line, and the energy was that she was ready

517
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: to get this off of chess and tired of carrying

518
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: this around. And in fact, in the transcript you can

519
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: read in there. He actually asked her if she's okay

520
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: during his questioning of her. It was really light, you know,

521
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: and she.

522
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Had to get a drink of water.

523
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: Her mouth was dry, and she stuttering things like that.

524
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: And then it was my turn. And then in the

525
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: beginning of my interview with her, she was definitive that

526
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: it was still Pairy. She was definitive that it was

527
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: his voice and that that voice is what carried her

528
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: through her certainty it was Parry. And then the best

529
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: thing I had to do, and I've done this many times,

530
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: was and again I knew she had other things to say, Okay.

531
00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: Well I'm ready.

532
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: Is that all you have?

533
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 2: No? Yeah, okay, well I'm okay. Well let's wrap it up.

534
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: I appreciate your time, and this has been tough. And

535
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: then she tells me more, I do that about three times.

536
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: She ends up telling me that she identified Perry on

537
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: a hunch, that on a hunch, that she did not

538
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: receive multiple calls that day at her home, that she

539
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: only received one call at the Arby's at her work,

540
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: that there were two men there, not one, and the

541
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: koupdo gral was is that it wasn't even his voice.

542
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: So this was a I see you smiling now, I

543
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: mean that was a Eureka moment for you.

544
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

545
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I was so stunned that I didn't even

546
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: realize she had said that. And two men in the

547
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: interview as we sat there as this was unraveling, and

548
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: at this point, Detective Crosby starts to interrupt, interject and

549
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: sway her, even to the point of telling her that

550
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: deep into her confession, so to speak, that he still

551
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: thinks Perry's the guy that did that to her.

552
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 3: Her story totally flipped when Eric got in front of him.

553
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: I read the transcripts attached the post conviction relieve filing.

554
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: I mean you could.

555
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: See I was ready to leave her home three times,

556
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: and she wasn't ready for me to leave. She wanted

557
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: to get this off her.

558
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: Chest, right, And then then things start to really roll.

559
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: And then so at what point did you know you

560
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: were going home?

561
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: Like I said, the Innocence Project took my case in

562
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: twenty eleven, and it was a couple of years after

563
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: that fourteen when you got involved, when they came and

564
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: got my DNA inside the prison. I think that was

565
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 3: the moment I knew I was going home.

566
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Eric, can you just explain the DNA findings in this

567
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: case and how they impacted the outcome.

568
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: Yes, so there were two contributors found in the victims

569
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: canal per the rape kit done in nineteen eighty seven.

570
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: Her ex husband was generous enough to meet with me

571
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: and allowed me to collect his DNA as well, and

572
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: that was one of the matches. The other match is

573
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: still unknown. I have my thoughts on who it is

574
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: as I sit here, But Perry.

575
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: Was excluded, that didn't do it. Those are the magic words.

576
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: Perry was excluded.

577
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: Yes, Karen and I are obviously very excited, the projects excited,

578
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: but Ada being Ada, none of this was good enough.

579
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: That still wasn't going They're still going to fight it.

580
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: They're still going to fight the DNA. They're still going

581
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: to fight basically a confession from the victim and then

582
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: so they're forcing this the state all the way to

583
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: a post conviction relief hearing. And so July ninth of

584
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, that was one of what would probably be

585
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: two to three hearings. Jeff Crosby is slated to testify

586
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: on July ninth, and of course I'll let Perry tell

587
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: the audience tell you what would happened on the ninth.

588
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: But on the seventh, unbeknownst to Perry and the team detached,

589
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 2: Crosby had taken his own life.

590
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 3: So two days before this Saturday and Sunday, I was

591
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 3: appearing in court that Monday.

592
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: So I mean, obviously we'll never know, but do you

593
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: have any theory as to why he did that? I mean,

594
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: the timing is not coincidental.

595
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: That would be my only thought.

596
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm an investigator. I'm not a fan of coincidence, so

597
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: I didn't find it coincidental at all. He was getting

598
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: ready to get chopped up on the stand on Monday.

599
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: I think people at home are probably wondering, why in

600
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: the world, with DNA scientifically proving that Perry had nothing

601
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: to do with this crime, and with the victim herself

602
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: recanting her testimony, and with no evidence whatsoever connecting him

603
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: to it, why is he on probation.

604
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: Well, first off, that was something that Perry had to

605
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: discuss with his two attorneys at the time. I wasn't

606
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: part of that conversation, but I know enough that I

607
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: can speak about it. The risk out of that county

608
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: because it's a district judge that here's this. They transitioned

609
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 2: to a new DA, but it's still the same type

610
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: a mindset in that county. So the risk, with all

611
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: of this being put before a judge of still losing

612
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: was still there, believe it or not, And so Perry

613
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: and his attorneys had to decide do we want to

614
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: take that risk or do you want to go home

615
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: today and live to fight another day. In almost any

616
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: other circumstance anywhere else, you would just put this up

617
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: in front of a judge, put your evidence you're hearing on.

618
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: Judge takes some time for finding the facts in law,

619
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: and you'd get your ruling bactual innocence. It makes no sense,

620
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: and it truly is a sophie's choice.

621
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: I'd spent now twenty something years, twenty five years or

622
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: so wondering how the hell do these people got me

623
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: in prison and how come I can't get myself out

624
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: of this. Karen helped me figure that out by helping

625
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: me see that all of the things that we think

626
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: should go right, when other people in power don't want

627
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: it to go right, they have the power to make

628
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 3: it go wrong. So she kept asking me, she said,

629
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 3: how do you do it? How do you do it,

630
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: and it's talking about keeping a smile and a good

631
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: attitude with all of this other stuff. How are you

632
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: always in such a good mood, I said, It's just

633
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: I love people. I cannot let this situation change me.

634
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: Matter of fact, that's one of the things that I

635
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: decided at that when I told you I was sitting

636
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 3: at the defendant table in shock, I knew at that

637
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: moment I had to remain in that state of mind

638
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: of who I was. I had to really get a

639
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 3: tight grip on my identity and hold on to that

640
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: for dear life, because I knew that this experience was

641
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 3: going to do everything in its power to make me

642
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: something I was not. Beginning with a rapist. Never in

643
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: my life would I even considered attacking a woman when

644
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: you can you know pretty much, I've called myself a

645
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: player back in them days. You know you don't Back

646
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: in them days, when you got it like I had it,

647
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: you didn't have to take anything from a woman. You

648
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: could ask, and you ask what a certain amount of finess.

649
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 3: I'm not saying, you know, you don't have to.

650
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: Say anything else. You got it.

651
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 3: You get the impression I'm trying to make, So you know,

652
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: The thing is, I will always appreciate hearing in my

653
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 3: life because she helped me understand something I never could

654
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: figure out in twenty five years, as how am I

655
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: doing this? What is it that's keeping me bolstered? And

656
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: I realized it was a mixture of family, church, good

657
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: friends around me that had their mind on right. She says. Finally,

658
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 3: after she had worked on my case a little while,

659
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: she said, mister Lott, I think I got you figured out.

660
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: I said, oh, yeah, we're to me. She said, I

661
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: know how you do it. And this is after I've

662
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 3: been disabled. And I said, oh yeah, what do you think?

663
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: She said, you do it one step at a time,

664
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: day by day. And the lights came on up in

665
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 3: my head. I said, damn, you got it figured out.

666
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: Now.

667
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: That's when I knew I was going home by continually

668
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 3: walking day by day, one day at a time, and

669
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 3: one step at a time. See, at that time, I

670
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 3: was taking little bitty baby steps. The disability I had,

671
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 3: I was prognosed to never walk again, to never get

672
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 3: out of the bed again. But I struggled and struggled,

673
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: and I began walking in little bitty baby steps, and

674
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: then I started really pushing myself. I can take a

675
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: full stride now with just a little bit of pain,

676
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 3: and back in that time, I could a little bitty

677
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 3: baby step like that and it would hurt like hell.

678
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: That's how it is.

679
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: You know, Well, you answered the question before I asked it.

680
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: I was going to ask whether you're better, and I

681
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: don't have to ask that anymore.

682
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 3: Penitentiary will do two things to a person. It will

683
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: make them better or to make them better. And it's

684
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 3: a choice that you have to make before you go

685
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: in that institution, before we.

686
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: Go to what I call our closing arguments, and I'll

687
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: explain to you what that is. Just talk a little

688
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: bit about what you're doing now, because you're actually working

689
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: with this guy, right awesome.

690
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: Yes, Eric approached me about a job and I said, well,

691
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: give me time to think about it. I was disabled,

692
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: not really confident in my abilities, not knowing that I

693
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 3: had abilities. A couple of months went by and said, hey,

694
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: I need an answer, that's okay, And he told me

695
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: that I could earn so much money, which is like

696
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 3: twice as much as I would get on disability. And

697
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: I didn't feel right on disability anyway. So when I

698
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: had the job, opportunity. I wanted to jump at it,

699
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: but I was hesitating because of my state of mind.

700
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 3: You know, what can I do? I'm thirty years missing

701
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 3: in action, no record of work history, no record of

702
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 3: medical history. I didn't know I had any ability at all.

703
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: So when Eric offered me the job, I said, Man,

704
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: give me time to think about that, and I'm just

705
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 3: trying to figure out a way to tell him new

706
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 3: and eventually, Man, he made an argument with me. I

707
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 3: couldn't deny that I could probably do this job in prison.

708
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: I did this for twenty five years trying to get

709
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 3: out of prison. I call it combing the records. You

710
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 3: know how they have a rake kit and they combed

711
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 3: the pubics. They're looking for whatever doesn't belong in those pubics.

712
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: When I combed the records, I look word for word,

713
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 3: line for line, looking for what doesn't belong here. It's

714
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 3: missing from here. And it's a skill that you develop

715
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: without knowing that you're actually developing it. You know, because

716
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: when you work on your own case daily for twenty

717
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 3: five years, you don't realize it, but you grow old

718
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 3: and you grow knowledge of the law and how it

719
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 3: should be applied.

720
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: Perry works for another five oh one C three, another

721
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: Chance Justice Project, and then we work on wrongful convictions

722
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 2: and excessive sentencing and some commutation there. But my private

723
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: firm is calling and Associates. Perry is employed through the project's.

724
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: Calling and associates. Yeah, we should shout that out a

725
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: little bit. And of course, one of my favorite human

726
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: beings who has also been on the show, Michelle Murphy

727
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: served twenty years, was exonerated with DNA, the only female

728
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: DNA exignery from Oklahoma. I encourage people to listen to

729
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: that episode. It's an incredible episode of wrongful conviction with

730
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: Michelle Murphy. But she's working with you as well, So

731
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: you have Yeah, I mean, it's actually perfectly logical. You're

732
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: taking people who have actually the most profound experience and

733
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: the most knowledge from having to out of necessity, from

734
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: having to do all this research to get themselves free

735
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: and to help others inside. Yeah, tentry, So you've got

736
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: You've got the dream team with Perry and Michelle. I

737
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: love it, you know that. So you know I always

738
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 1: say on the show, you know, I'm happy you're here,

739
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: but I'm sorry you're here. I mean, I'm sorry you

740
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: had to go through what you had to go through

741
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: to get here. But it means an awful lot that

742
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: you came in and came to New York, all the

743
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: way from Oklahoma to share your incredible story, your spirit,

744
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: your wisdom, your outlook. We got the whole Perry lot.

745
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 3: When I found out I was going to be here,

746
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: that I just wanted to see you again.

747
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: Man, Well, what can I say? I'm just about to

748
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: melt into a puddle over here, whereas the old say goes,

749
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: knock me down with a feather. One of the reasons

750
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: why today's episode is unique is because we are recording

751
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: this in the middle of an art exhibit by an

752
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: innocent man on death row in Texas, a guy named

753
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: Rob Will who has created this remarkable collection of work

754
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: from his tiny cell. I can't not mention that it's

755
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: sort of a heavy day as well, because as we

756
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: sit here, Texas is probably in the process in the

757
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: last couple hours before they carry out another execution of

758
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: an innocent man. Larry Sweringen is going to be executed today,

759
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: almost certainly in spite of evidence of his actual innocence.

760
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: So we just have a moment of silence for Larry. Okay,

761
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: So this is the part of the show where again

762
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: this is my favorite part the show. I think it's

763
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people's favorite part of the show. We

764
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: get feedback online, etc. Where I get to once again

765
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: thank you to outstanding freedom fighters for coming and being

766
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: on rawful conviction with me. Eric. I know we'll be

767
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 1: doing more of these in the future, and we're working

768
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: together on various cases and I'm a huge fan of

769
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: your work. I think you're one of the top people

770
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: in the country at what you do and we need

771
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: more of you. So Eric Cullin, thank you again for

772
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: being here my pleasure, and Perry again, I thank you before,

773
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: I'll thank you again, and I'm looking forward to working

774
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: with you in the future and spending more time together.

775
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: And now, like I said, this is what we call

776
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: closing arguments. So this is where I get to turn

777
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: my microphone off, I kind of kick back rock back

778
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: in my chair and just listen and turn the microphones

779
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: over to you for your closing thoughts. I call it

780
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: closing arguments. It was really closing thoughts on anything you

781
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: want to say, anything we may have left that out,

782
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: or anything at all. And again we'll save the best

783
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: for last. No offense are. I know, but the start

784
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: of the show is Perry. So but first, Eric, you're

785
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: closing thoughts.

786
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 2: Perry's case is just a shining example again, you covered

787
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: it of the eyewitness identification problem. It's also a shining

788
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: example of why Oklahoma is number one in incarcerating African

789
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: American males in the world. And then of course on

790
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 2: the side twenty eight years in a row for females,

791
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: which is a whole other topic. But there's no surprise

792
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: as to why we're here. When you hear Perry's story,

793
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 2: when you hear Michelle's story, when you hear Williams and Fritz,

794
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: all these different ones from Oklahoma. It's horrifying. I think

795
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: we're at a point now where it's becoming bipartisan this issue.

796
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: You know, I think the eyes are open. You'd have

797
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: to be a real fool to say that ron fold

798
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 2: convictions don't exists now. We're just several years ago, it

799
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: wasn't quite there. That's what my closing earner would be,

800
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: And I would add one other thing. We're not done

801
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: with Arry's case. We're going to work on this till

802
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: we get him fully exonerated.

803
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 3: Very yes, sir, I heard you called me the start

804
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 3: of the show. Well, you guys are the stars of

805
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: my show. You know, without you guys in my life,

806
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 3: I would probably be dead in prison, still in prison.

807
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: So I want to thank you and honor you for

808
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: that and your audience. I want to honor you for

809
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: being attentive. And I want to admonish everyone under the

810
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: sound of my voice to get involved with this awareness,

811
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: to get involved with the injustice, the police brutality. The

812
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 3: only way evil like this prevails is when good people

813
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 3: say nothing. A lot of people will see crime and

814
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: close their windows, close their doors, turn their back. And

815
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: that's why we're in the state that we're in right now.

816
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 3: We have to be courageous enough to say I saw this.

817
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 3: I want to say something and the truth. You know.

818
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 3: Of being in prison for thirty one years, I came

819
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 3: out very battle weary, not too much confidence in my abilities.

820
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 3: As I said before, overwhelmed with the stimulus of the

821
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 3: free world. I still right now today have not cooked

822
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 3: my own first meal. After being out of prison for

823
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 3: it a year and some months, I don't have the

824
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: confidence to cook a meal. I don't really go into

825
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: big shopping malls anymore. There's too many choices. I'm not

826
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: used to that. I am enjoying the freedom of going

827
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 3: back and forth under limits being on parole or probation.

828
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: But it feels good to be able to go here

829
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 3: and there without having to ask permission. So to speak.

830
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 3: Life is good, man, and it's getting better. You know.

831
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: I have a whole lot to be thankful for, even

832
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: though this misfortune happened to me and took away a

833
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 3: lot of my life. I tell people all the time,

834
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 3: I got a whole lot more yesterday's than I do tomorrow.

835
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 3: So I'm going to make the most of it. And

836
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 3: all I really want to do now is just be

837
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 3: the best me that I can be, not only for

838
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 3: myself but for anyone who's watching me, because someone's always

839
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 3: watching and you never know what they're going to pick

840
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: up from you. So I do my best to just

841
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: be the best example I can. I'm not perfect. I

842
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 3: have a ways to go. I'm not perfect, but I'm

843
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: pretty close to it. That's a joke, no, but honestly,

844
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 3: you know, heart goes out to the youth of America.

845
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: You know, the violence, the games, the influences. Find other

846
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: things to spend your time with. I really don't want

847
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: to be preachy, but these are the things I've learned

848
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 3: the hard way, you know, is ask questions, don't take

849
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: anyone's word, find your own truth, seek clarity, you know,

850
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 3: just be true to yourself. It's very important.

851
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. Thank you everyone at home.

852
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

853
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

854
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: owner to the Ennisis Project, and I really hope you'll

855
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

856
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

857
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

858
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

859
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

860
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

861
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

862
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava

863
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one