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Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom, and we continue with doctor Gupda.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk in Sanjay, because you've been I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've been one of the great thought leaders and written

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Speaker 1: so much about longevity, and you talk about nutrition and

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Speaker 1: health and some of the remarkable breakthroughs that are just

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Speaker 1: they seem just shockingly common sense, I mean just sort

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Speaker 1: of foundational, just leading with common sense, eating well, sleeping well, hydrating, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, socialization, et cetera. But you've been writing particularly

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Speaker 1: about some breakthroughs and some examples of real successes as

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Speaker 1: it relates to longevity and wellness that give I think,

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Speaker 1: distill a sense of well being at least people like

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Speaker 1: me that with an aging grain population, that we should

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Speaker 1: be more optimistic than I think some of us have

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Speaker 1: painted the future.

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Speaker 2: With what we know now, not not any new medical

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Speaker 2: breakthrough or some big development. I think we could greatly,

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Speaker 2: greatly expand life expectancy and health span. That's a term

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you've heard, but health span versus lifespan, it's

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Speaker 2: the number of really functional years you have left. I

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Speaker 2: think the data has become very compelling on this. I

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Speaker 2: think anecdotally we've known this for a while. By looking

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Speaker 2: at other countries around the world and saying they spend

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Speaker 2: a lot less. They do pretty simple things. They walk

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Speaker 2: to their meet friends as opposed to driving. They eat right,

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Speaker 2: They fresh foods, healthier foods. They sleep well. Some of

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Speaker 2: the healthiest communities in the world have either non existent

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Speaker 2: healthcare systems, are very very small healthcare systems. So and

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Speaker 2: that's heart disease, that's dementia, that's diabetes, all at a

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Speaker 2: fraction of the rates that we have in the United States.

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Speaker 2: They don't have anything that we don't have. What's happening

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Speaker 2: to us is not because of what we're not doing.

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Speaker 2: It's because of what we are doing to our bodies.

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Speaker 2: But I'll tell you something interesting, Governor, if you talk

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Speaker 2: about longevity overall or aging sort of as a construct,

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Speaker 2: what scientists will stay, including Eric Topol, who you may

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Speaker 2: know in your state, aging is really made up of

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Speaker 2: several different things. It's not just revolutions of planets. It's

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Speaker 2: how well your immune system is working, how much inflammation

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Speaker 2: you have, how much something that you have known as senescence,

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Speaker 2: how many cells that are in a sinesseence stage. There's

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Speaker 2: seven different things like this that you can sort of

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Speaker 2: think about that actually make up aging that will determine

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Speaker 2: your health span, far more important than your genetics. We

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Speaker 2: can control many of those things. We can improve our

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Speaker 2: immune function, we can decrease our inflammation, we can decrease sinessence,

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Speaker 2: and there's all these different ways to do it now

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Speaker 2: that have great data behind that. There are certain medications

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Speaker 2: and I'm not you know, Hockey any medications here, but

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Speaker 2: like something like met Foreman even, which is something that's

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Speaker 2: gotten a lot of attention Nil's Bursley, who's a longevity

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Speaker 2: research out of SINAI will say met Forman is probably

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Speaker 2: the closest thing we have to targeting all these different

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Speaker 2: cardinal issues of aging, which I find really really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't call it a breakthrough. I would call it

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Speaker 2: a recognition of what aging really is, what is really

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Speaker 2: happening to the human body, especially as we get older,

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Speaker 2: wire function decreases, and what can be done about it.

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Speaker 2: You're quite right, it comes down to the big three,

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Speaker 2: how we nourish ourselves, how we move, and how we rest.

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Speaker 2: But you know, there's there's more nuance to it now

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Speaker 2: based on a lot of the data people like Eric

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Speaker 2: and Nill's are collecting.

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Speaker 1: And at the core. I mean you've you know, you've

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Speaker 1: you've written about I mean when it comes inflammation, obviously,

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Speaker 1: sugars issues are around dairy meats. I mean, what's I mean,

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Speaker 1: what yeah, you are You're solidified in that sort of

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Speaker 1: core sort of understanding that limiting obviously sugar seems to

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Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. I don't know if everybody's

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Speaker 1: familiar with dairy as a component concern, uh, and and

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Speaker 1: and then we can have the great meat debate as well.

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Speaker 1: But are these sort of these foundational in terms of

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Speaker 1: addressing particularly issues around Alzheimer's and dementia. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know Dean Ornish is out here in sas Alito. Uh,

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Speaker 1: California has been pushing a lot in that space. What's

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Speaker 1: what's your sense on the basis all your research and work, well.

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Speaker 2: Sugar i'd put into its own category, like illuding to

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Speaker 2: sugar is toxic. I mean, I did a piece for

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Speaker 2: sixty minutes years ago called the Toxic Truth, and it

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Speaker 2: was all about sugar, and it is. It is remarkable

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Speaker 2: to me what sugar does to the body. We are

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Speaker 2: our bodies just don't know how to process the amount

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Speaker 2: of sugar that we eat. Nowadays, it basically hits our

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Speaker 2: liver like a tsunami. And I think what's what's rising

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Speaker 2: to people is that because the body can handle all

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Speaker 2: that sugar, it turns out these byproducts, which are typically

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Speaker 2: what are called LDL particles low density lipoprotein particles. You

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Speaker 2: would typically think my LDL is going to go out

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Speaker 2: because I ate a cheeseburger, which is true, but it

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Speaker 2: might go up even more from a sugary drink. That's

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Speaker 2: how toxic sugar can be to the body. So sugar

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Speaker 2: I'd almost put into its own category. But I think

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Speaker 2: with regard to the other things darian even meat. I

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Speaker 2: do eat meat. I'm not a total vegetarian. I hope

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Speaker 2: Dean's not listening because he's you know, he's vegan. But

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Speaker 2: I think it really has to do with how those

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Speaker 2: foods are processed. It's all the other junk that's added

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Speaker 2: to a lot of those foods that I think make

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Speaker 2: them really problematic and increase inflammation. What Dean was able

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Speaker 2: to show, and I thought it was fascinating, was that

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Speaker 2: going on a vegan diet was greatly associated with decreasing

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Speaker 2: inflammation in the body and in the brain, and could

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Speaker 2: if it could stall and potentially reverse Alzheimer's disease. That

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Speaker 2: that was a big deal. I mean, people, once you

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Speaker 2: get diagnosed with dementia, it is a downward spiral from

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Speaker 2: there on out. He was able to show that you

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Speaker 2: could at least stall it, if not reverse it, by

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Speaker 2: simply changing diet and increasing activity as well. But diet

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Speaker 2: was the big thing, and we've anecdotally sort of known

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Speaker 2: this to be true, but I think he was really

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Speaker 2: able to show this, and I think that's that's certainly

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Speaker 2: made me reconsider my eating. So I've cut back on meat.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I I we you know, I got

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Speaker 2: three teenagers. You got to you got to balance your

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Speaker 2: your life with what you know. I mean, if we

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Speaker 2: were going to live forever, Kevin, if that was a

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Speaker 2: can I call you Gavin, by the way.

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Speaker 3: Please do the the the if if if we if

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Speaker 3: there was a possibility we could live forever, that immortality

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Speaker 3: was attainable, I might live my life differently, but I

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Speaker 3: think you've got to balance your joy with your your lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: And and I'm a very healthy exercise every day intensely,

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Speaker 2: but also take long walks with my wife and my

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Speaker 2: dogs and stuff like that. So I have more moderate

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Speaker 2: activity as well, eat healthily, don't eat sugar and ill,

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Speaker 2: don't drink alcohol. Alcohol is terrible. I mean, yeah, why

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Speaker 2: do well anyways? But but the the.

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Speaker 1: I'm in the wine business. You're talking to the wrong guy.

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Speaker 1: But I completely appreciate your point.

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Speaker 2: My guess is when you drink wine and I and

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Speaker 2: I have. I have drank wine, and I can appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: It's virtues. But do not do not get a terrible

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Speaker 2: night's sleep.

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Speaker 1: I mean, now, if I have any this works against

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Speaker 1: my personal interests. I've not got to say no sugar

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Speaker 1: and whether of course there's a byproduct of the wine

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Speaker 1: as well. But by the way, are you a coffee drinker?

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Speaker 1: Everybody's got is a mushroom coffee. People are in what's

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Speaker 1: going on with coffee? Should I be drinking coffee?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I didn't know about the mushroom coffee. But I

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Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's saying you should try mushroom coffee.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm asking you. I I like so,

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Speaker 2: I you know, it's a funny. Funny thing is I

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Speaker 2: really did not drink coffee up until a few years ago,

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Speaker 2: and it was for no particular reason other than I

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Speaker 2: just didn't like the taste of it. I am. It

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Speaker 2: was unusual because most surgical residents and medical students, they

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Speaker 2: started drinking coffee, you know, sort of you know, early twenties,

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Speaker 2: and they become part of their lifestyle. I just never

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Speaker 2: liked it. But during the pandemic, actually is when I

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Speaker 2: started drinking coffee. I was waking up at four thirty

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Speaker 2: in the morning every day and working till eleven thirty

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Speaker 2: at night, you know, for a couple of years in

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Speaker 2: a row. And my wife actually introduced me to this coffee.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if we're allowed to talk about brands,

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Speaker 2: but I really like it. It's called Purity Coffee and

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Speaker 2: Pure coffee. It's just it's it's got no none of

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Speaker 2: the additives that we were talking about. It's it's pesticide free,

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Speaker 2: and to me, it tasted really clean. When I drank

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Speaker 2: coffee and the asked it, I always felt like I

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Speaker 2: could almost taste the aftertaste to it, and this was

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Speaker 2: just a really good coffee. And then I started really

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Speaker 2: doing a deep dive into coffee, and I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's associated with all these different health benefits, cardiac dementia, inflammation, overall.

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Speaker 2: So I drink a cup of days, sometimes two cups

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Speaker 2: a day, and I think it's I think it's been

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Speaker 2: really good for me.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think I mean as a guy

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Speaker 1: who's got a few cups behind him in front of

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Speaker 1: him on the.

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Speaker 2: Side, just black coffee, or what are you drinking?

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Speaker 1: It's just black coffee. No, I'm not adding any of

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Speaker 1: that cream, any of that nonsense.

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Speaker 2: And it takes a little bit to get used to

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Speaker 2: the taste I think of just a black coffee. But

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Speaker 2: once it's there, ye.

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Speaker 1: Once you're there on the other side, you can hold strong.

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Speaker 1: How worried should I be about this floride movement now

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Speaker 1: we're seeing I mean Utah, Florida, there's big debates in

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Speaker 1: Louisiana other states to take floride out of the water?

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Speaker 1: Where did that? Where did this even come from? How

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Speaker 1: important is I read in the past one of the

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Speaker 1: great success stories in the last half century in terms

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Speaker 1: of just you know, tell me give me your over

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Speaker 1: under on fluoride.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well see, this is why I appreciate about podcasts

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Speaker 2: like this, because there's a nuance to this, and you

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Speaker 2: can actually get into the nuance a bit. Fluoride in

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Speaker 2: really high doses can be problematic. It can cause something

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Speaker 2: known as skeletal fluorosis. I'm talking about ingested fluoride. So

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Speaker 2: you're taken it into your body through usually through water.

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Speaker 2: It can cause skeletal fluorosis, which can make your bones

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Speaker 2: in your skeleton weak. It can cause dental fluorosis. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever seen governor people who have

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Speaker 2: white streaks in their teeth. Yeah, sometimes that is a

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Speaker 2: dental fluorosis. That's an indication of high fluoride levels. And

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Speaker 2: I think most recently and interestingly, there's been concerns about neurotoxicity.

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Speaker 2: There were studies done, all of them outside this country

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Speaker 2: where fluorid levels are much higher than the United States,

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Speaker 2: where they showed that moms, for example, during pregnancy, if

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Speaker 2: they had high fluorid exposure, their kids later in life

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Speaker 2: was associated with a lower IQ. So that was obviously concerning.

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Speaker 2: These are hard studies to do, and there was some

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Speaker 2: you know, getting the methods right on these studies is challenging,

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Speaker 2: but I think there was enough of a concern about

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Speaker 2: that for people to really start paying attention. To give

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Speaker 2: you a little bit of context, the levels that we're

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Speaker 2: talking about are at least twice as high as the

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Speaker 2: levels in the drinking water in the United States, so

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Speaker 2: quite a bit higher. And in medicine we always use

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Speaker 2: this phrase the dose makes the poison things in any

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Speaker 2: just about anything in a high enough dose could potentially

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Speaker 2: be problematic. But it's you know, it definitely gets people's attention.

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Speaker 2: What I would say when you talk about the fact

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Speaker 2: that it's touted as one of the greatest public health

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Speaker 2: achievements of the last century. I saw that as well,

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Speaker 2: and I think that there's a kernel of truth to that.

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Speaker 2: But the nuance is most of the data that exists

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Speaker 2: on the benefits of fluoride exists before nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy five was a timeframe when dental care became

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Speaker 2: much more widely available and fluoridated toothpaste, So prior to that,

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Speaker 2: fluoridating the water probably had an incrementally a much bigger

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Speaker 2: benefit than it does today, So it doesn't provide as

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Speaker 2: much benefit. I think it's low risk because the levels

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Speaker 2: don't get as high as they used to, and they

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Speaker 2: don't get as high in the United States, as I

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Speaker 2: should say, as they do in other countries. But it's

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Speaker 2: also lower reward, So fluoride today lower risk, lower reward

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Speaker 2: than it used to be. Iceland does not fluoridate their water.

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Speaker 2: England does not floridate their water. Israel does not fluoridate

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Speaker 2: their water. In Iceland, the kids all do twice a

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Speaker 2: month fluoride rinses, and England, interestingly, they fluoridate milk, so

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Speaker 2: it's not water. So you're floridating milk. They like, we

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Speaker 2: don't want to put it in the water supply kids

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Speaker 2: you know, who drink milk, they should still get their

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Speaker 2: florid That was sort of their thinking. Calgary in Canada,

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Speaker 2: they stopped fluoridating their water back in twenty eleven, I believe,

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Speaker 2: but then brought it back because cavity rates went up

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Speaker 2: and there was a new study that said, in the

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Speaker 2: United States, how much of an impact would it have

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Speaker 2: to take a fluoride out of the water, And they

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Speaker 2: said it could potentially be, you know, twenty five million

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Speaker 2: more cavities within the next five years, fifty million cavities

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Speaker 2: within the next ten years. So, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: we need better dental care overall, and this is almost

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Speaker 2: a policy discussion. I think people it's hard to get

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Speaker 2: dental care. It's hard to get dental coverage. But I

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Speaker 2: think if we had fluoride rinses, if kids got better

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Speaker 2: dental care, then I think the incremental benefit of fluoride

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Speaker 2: goes down even more. Sexually, Kennedy's been talking about florid

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Speaker 2: for a long time, heavy metals in general, but fluoride

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Speaker 2: in particular for a long time. And you know, as

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Speaker 2: with these other things we're talking about, there's a nuance

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Speaker 2: to it. I don't think it's as big a public

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Speaker 2: health issue now as it was fifty years ago, sixty

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Speaker 2: years ago. But and we can even model how much

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Speaker 2: of an impact it would have. But I think it

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Speaker 2: really speaks to the fact that we need better dental

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Speaker 2: care overall.

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Speaker 1: Boy, I really appreciate the nuance of the response, and

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Speaker 1: it just look, it goes to I think our frustration

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Speaker 1: just generally as consumers and as people that you know,

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Speaker 1: just are so desperate just for the facts and a

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Speaker 1: deeper understanding. And you talked earlier about the politics and

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Speaker 1: these binaries and how everything is seen through a political lens.

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Speaker 1: It's just the larger issue of misinformation. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously COVID seemed to expose a lot of that stress

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Speaker 1: and anxiety. And you know, obviously our politics has been

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Speaker 1: I think profoundly shaped sort of post COVID framework, and

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Speaker 1: I think in some respects significantly so obviously with RFK

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Speaker 1: as HHS Secretary in terms of health care policy today,

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Speaker 1: what's your you know, as you reflect back and you

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Speaker 1: know your own experience living through sort of helping us

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Speaker 1: all through the pandemic experience in COVID, how do we

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Speaker 1: get back to the kind of platform that we need

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Speaker 1: in order to row in the same direction as a country,

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Speaker 1: to be prepared again, my gosh, for another novel virus

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Speaker 1: moving forward, where we're not at each other's throats, we're

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Speaker 1: not talking down to each other, past each other. Help

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Speaker 1: give us a sense of how we get back into

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Speaker 1: the trust and truth space.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it's I think it's tough, for sure,

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Speaker 2: And as a medical reporter, you know, I think I

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Speaker 2: have a really front row seat to how this is

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Speaker 2: all sort of unfolded. I'd say one thing, just for

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Speaker 2: historical reference, is that if you go back and you

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Speaker 2: look at the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic, that was a

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Speaker 2: time when obviously we didn't have cell phone, social media,

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Speaker 2: you know, rapid sort of spread of information, but there

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Speaker 2: was still a lot of distrust overall of basic public

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Speaker 2: health recommendations. There was a fair that was supposed to

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Speaker 2: take place, I believe in Saint Louis and or maybe

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Speaker 2: in Philadelphia. Philadelphia and Saint Louis were the two cities.

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Speaker 2: One city said, how can we possibly do a big

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Speaker 2: fare like this in the middle of a pandemic? And

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Speaker 2: the other city said, we don't think it's a big deal.

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Speaker 2: We'll do the fairs. They took it on, and they

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Speaker 2: had twelve times the rate of fluid deaths as the

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Speaker 2: city that chose not to do it. Point being that

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Speaker 2: there has been this skepticism that I think exists just

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Speaker 2: in human nature forever, you know. And I'll go so

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Speaker 2: far as to say this Governor, maybe some of that

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Speaker 2: skepticism is necessary, you know. I think that I think that,

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Speaker 2: you know, if we look at human beings like organisms,

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Speaker 2: some people just have their antennas raised really really high.

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Speaker 2: And I think when you're antenna's raised really really high,

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Speaker 2: two things happen. You see things that aren't there. You

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Speaker 2: just see things and the blurry off in the distance,

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Speaker 2: and you think that there's an attack coming and it's

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Speaker 2: not coming. But on the other hand, sometimes you see

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Speaker 2: things before everyone else does as well. And so I

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Speaker 2: think there are people whose intendos are raised really high,

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Speaker 2: who are just concerned citizens. I think there are you know,

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Speaker 2: SCHD starters who sort of fall into that category as well,

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Speaker 2: but not all of them. It's a heterogeneous group of

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Speaker 2: people who are who are going to be resistant to

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Speaker 2: basic public health measures. It's it's a much more diverse

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Speaker 2: group of people than I think I realized. That's one

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Speaker 2: thing I think with regard to misinformation and even disinformation,

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Speaker 2: purposeful misinformation, I think my largest concern right now is

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Speaker 2: that we're getting to the point and I hope it changes,

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Speaker 2: and I'm optimist. I'm an optimist. I think it will change,

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Speaker 2: but I think right now we're at a point where

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Speaker 2: nobody believes anything. Yeah. I was talking to my youngest daughter.

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Speaker 2: It's about a year year and a half ago, and

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Speaker 2: I was very close to Senator John McCain and she

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Speaker 2: showed me some meme on TikTok or Instagram or something

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Speaker 2: about John McCain. She knew that we were close, and

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Speaker 2: especially after he had his brain tumor and things, and

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Speaker 2: this was a funny meme, but it somehow suggested that

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Speaker 2: he was alive and that his whole death was a hoax, right, crazy,

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Speaker 2: crazy stuff. And I said, hey, Sole, okay, funny, right,

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Speaker 2: but you know that's not true, right, And she said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's here on Instagram whatever. And I said, yeah, but

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Speaker 2: you know it's not true. And she said to me, Governor,

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Speaker 2: she said, any of this stuff is true, Dad, And

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Speaker 2: it really got me thinking, like what happens to a

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Speaker 2: generation of people that grow up without a locus of trust?

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Speaker 2: I mean, forget who they trust. You know, they should

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Speaker 2: trust you, they should trust me, they should trust experts.

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Speaker 2: I think, I really do believe that, But maybe they

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Speaker 2: don't trust anybody. And I think unless you can touch somebody,

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Speaker 2: unless you know somebody personally, you don't really trust them anymore,

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Speaker 2: which I think is is really problematic, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's where we're headed. It starts to hyperlocalize suspicion of everybody,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's where we're headed. So I think,

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, as as a reporter, instead of

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Speaker 2: constantly combating misinformation, which is like playing whack a mole

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Speaker 2: all day long, just continuing to try and put out

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Speaker 2: good information and explain things in a way that is

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Speaker 2: accessible to people, and you know, leans into the nuance

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Speaker 2: and the uncertainty of things as a country. If the

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Speaker 2: question you're asking is about preparing for the next pandemic,

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Speaker 2: I would say the precautionary principle is important, and that

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Speaker 2: is that is how we do many things in our country.

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Speaker 2: We have, you know, more than a dozen aircraft carriers

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Speaker 2: right now that are circumnavigating the globe and they're keeping

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Speaker 2: us safe. We don't pay a lot of attention to that.

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Speaker 2: It's not something we have in the forefront of our minds,

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Speaker 2: but they're out there basically displaying the precautionary principle. A

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Speaker 2: virus is a national security threat. We saw what it

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Speaker 2: did to our country. If we're able to apply the

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Speaker 2: precautionary principle at a policy level, so things just go

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Speaker 2: into effect, as opposed to Seattle's doing this and New

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Speaker 2: York is doing this, and Alabama's doing this, and Florida

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Speaker 2: is saying we're not going to do any of that,

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Speaker 2: and it was just a mess. Instead, if we actually

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Speaker 2: applied the precautionary principle as a country treated as a

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Speaker 2: national security threat, which it is, I think we'd be

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Speaker 2: much better prepared. But you know, right now we're in

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Speaker 2: a position where you have people who believe COVID was

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Speaker 2: a hoax the entire thing. So we have some work

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Speaker 2: to do, I think before we get there.

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Speaker 1: Because I think you know, there were obviously mistakes we

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Speaker 1: did make. There was lessons that we do need to learn,

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Speaker 1: and there were decisions that need to be reconciled going forward.

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Speaker 1: And I think for denial about that that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to build that level of trust moving forward for

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Speaker 1: those that feel very very differently.

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Speaker 2: No question, And I think you know one thing that

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Speaker 2: I think was a real learning point. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: as doctors, if we're you know, recommending I was in

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Speaker 2: the operating room all day yesterday, you know, taking out

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Speaker 2: brain tumors and doing things like that, we know that

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Speaker 2: it leaves a toll on people to do that, to

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Speaker 2: recommend chemotherapy. We know the impact of that on their lives.

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Speaker 2: We think that the benefit is that it could cure

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Speaker 2: their cancer, but we know it's going to be it's

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Speaker 2: gonna be tough sledding for them for a while. How

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Speaker 2: do you convey that at a societal level, you know,

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Speaker 2: closing schools. The impact of that, you know, that was

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Speaker 2: tough on my kids, you know, so so to really

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Speaker 2: I think be very mindful of the the the impact.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that the decisions are wrong, but being

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Speaker 2: really mindful of the impact of those decisions on people.

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Speaker 2: It's it's tough, you know. As doctors, I think we're

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Speaker 2: a little bit more trained toward it, and because we

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Speaker 2: have to like look at risk reward for everything. But

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Speaker 2: I think assessing risk and balancing that reward as a

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Speaker 2: country is hard. And I think that gets back to

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Speaker 2: where we started, this precautionary principle. We don't know, Let's

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Speaker 2: be cautious, let's be careful, Let's not accelerate around the

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Speaker 2: blind curves here, Let's let's hit the brakes a little bit,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I think that's that's still to me,

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Speaker 2: that still makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Final question, I'm curious, you know, you speaking of sense,

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Speaker 1: speaking of risk, speaking of trust, where are we to

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Speaker 1: make sense of AI and medicine. We're seeing just runaway

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Speaker 1: costs and healthcare. It seems like every other industry is

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Speaker 1: found efficiencies, every other industry. Costs seem to go down.

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Speaker 1: It seems like more technology is introduced to the healthcare sector.

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Speaker 1: Our costs seem to go up and up and up.

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Speaker 1: Is AI over hyped in terms of medical expenses? Is

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Speaker 1: it over hyped in terms of research and discovery? Is

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Speaker 1: it under hyped as it relates to imaging benefits and

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Speaker 1: just sort of supercapacity to address chronic disease and solve

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Speaker 1: for some of life's great evils and cancers.

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Speaker 2: I think it's going to be magnificent ultimately what AI

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Speaker 2: can do for healthcare. It's going to need guardrails, but

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Speaker 2: I think even those are, you know, very trainable. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's great companies, one of them out to California called

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Speaker 2: Open Evidence, where you're already starting to see like for me,

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Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. A guy comes into the

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Speaker 2: office with back pain and leg pain and he's got

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Speaker 2: a herniated disk and their lumbar spine in the lower back.

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Speaker 2: Do they get an operation? Do they not get an operation?

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Speaker 2: I could ask ten different spine surgeons and maybe get

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Speaker 2: eleven different answers. AI could look at nine billion pieces

429
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 2: of data within a fraction of seconds that here are

430
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: fifty thousand other people who are just like the person

431
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: you're describing, and here are their various outcomes based on

432
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: evaluating their medical records and doing this all in a

433
00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 2: de identified way. My resident's already walking around talking to

434
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: their phones as they're walking into a patient room to

435
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: figure out the best approach to to, you know whatever

436
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: whatever al's they're they're patients, you know, so it's it's

437
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: already changing. I think, I said on the Subcommittee for

438
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 2: AI for the National Academy of Medicine, and I think

439
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 2: one of the things that really struck me is we

440
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 2: were creating these these guardrails, was this idea that we

441
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: still have to think of AI from a trust but

442
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: verify sort of model. It's it's wildly effective at finding

443
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: breast cancers, for example, on mammograms, but sometimes it airs

444
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: wildly as well. And you know, these hallucinations as people

445
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: call them. I think they're already starting to get better

446
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: about that. I think it's gonna you know, we we've

447
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 2: been talking about big data, you know, for decades now.

448
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: AI is actually going to be able to make sense

449
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: of that big data and I think make it valuable

450
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: for patients. I'll tell you a quick anecdote. You know,

451
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: if you've been to the hospital lately or a clinic,

452
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: and you got a letter from you know, sort of

453
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: summarizing your care. It probably was generated by an AI platform.

454
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 2: That's interesting. And most of and when they when they

455
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: blinded these letters and they compared them to actual letters

456
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: written by doctors or nurses and then gave them to

457
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 2: random people, what they found was the AI letters were

458
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: often referred to as more human the human letters, which I.

459
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: Thought was that just is that the state of doctors,

460
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: is that the quality of you know.

461
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: I think if you if you said to me, hey,

462
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: you know, my daughter's going to get married, you know,

463
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: in July, you know, and I'm really excited about that,

464
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: but you're here for your herniated disk, I may have

465
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: deprioritized that information, whereas an AI platform may have listened

466
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: to that and said, hey, Governor, I hope the wedding

467
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 2: went well with your daughter. And you know, just these

468
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: human touches. You had these moments where humans were looking

469
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: at these AI letters and they were pausing at the

470
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: moment that they read these human touches, and it was

471
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: almost like humans learning from machines how to be more human.

472
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: I think. So I'm bullish on AI. I think, and

473
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: you know, I think one thing about New technologies. Is

474
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: that there's always a disparity in terms of haves and

475
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 2: have nots when they first come out. Before mimmography, black

476
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: women and white women had similar rates of breast cancer.

477
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: After mimmography, breast cancer rates went down overall, but much

478
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: more so for white women than Black women. We see

479
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: those disparities with AI already, so we have to address disparities,

480
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: make sure this is very available and accessible to people.

481
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: But I think it's gonna it's gonna change healthcare. We're

482
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: gonna come up with new treatments and the right clinical

483
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: decision making much more quickly as a result of AI.

484
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: In thirty years, you're still doing brain surgeries or as

485
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: a robot doing them?

486
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: No, I'm still doing I'm still doing them. You'd be proud,

487
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: you know. I say this as a as a brain

488
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: surgeon who always carries around brain with me. I got

489
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: it right here. Yeah, I don't know that a robot

490
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: is yet able to fully grapple with three and a

491
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: half pounds of the most enigmatic tissue in the known universe.

492
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: I still think humans have to do that. Eventually, we may,

493
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: we may get there, but right now I just think

494
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 2: the you know, the dexterity and sort of the types

495
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: of operations that we do. But look in cardiac surgery

496
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: and prostate cancer surgery, you have Da Vinci, you have

497
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: robots that that stuff. For a while, we'll get there.

498
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: I'll be retired, I think by that point, hopefully. I

499
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: don't know.

500
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: If you keep if you keep to your wellness program,

501
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: you're going to be fine. Go hardly, hardly. I'm gonna

502
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: watch ka. I already have my instructions on on my

503
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: meat consumption in the s acknowledge. I'll acknowledge them.

504
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: Will be in the wine business, and that drinks so

505
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: much wine?

506
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: No, I mean that's an issue. I mean it's an

507
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: objective issue. But I shouldn't be I can't be promoting well,

508
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: maybe I should be promoting my businesses. Apparently that's not

509
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: an issue anymore.

510
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: Hey, can I ask you what's going on with you?

511
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: Real quick? Like, what's what's what's up? After you know? Sacramento?

512
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's sure as hell. I ain't going to

513
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: be medical school. I have no capacity there. But it's

514
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: it's to be determined, all of it to be determined

515
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: the time of profound uncertainty. And I'm just trying to.

516
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying not only to not get fined today,

517
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: but not get arrested tomorrow in the next few months.

518
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: It's crazy what's going on in this country. But I

519
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: will say, though on a serious note, just you know,

520
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: it's also remarkable how just trying to just absorb what's

521
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 1: happening with healthcare policy from the MEATA, we didn't even

522
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: get into medicaid cuts. We didn't even get to the

523
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: broader issues associated with the quote unquote reorg at HHS

524
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: and all the cuts to you know, just people out

525
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: there promoting vaccines, HIV issues and treatments. I mean, this

526
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: is a lot going on, and it's hard to absorb

527
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: just one hundred plus days in.

528
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: I know, and as a reporter, I mean just every

529
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: day there's something new and it changes. It's so ephemeral,

530
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: like you get all ready to report on it. An

531
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: hour later it's it's it's different. But you know, in

532
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: the good fight, you know, I think certainly as reporters

533
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: were information matters, good information matters. Fewer people are consuming it,

534
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, we we're well aware of that, right. Yeah,

535
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean me stop trying, you know, keep that.

536
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: Well, Well, I love what I mean to your point.

537
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I made the point earlier.

538
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: But your podcast is fabulous and it's great to see you,

539
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, out there doing especially with the just those

540
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: sort of short clips where you're answering those tough questions,

541
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: but doing with the kind of nuance I thought, and

542
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: I mean that sincerely, your response on the floor ide.

543
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: Is just something we don't hear.

544
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: And it's hard to have a segment that is that

545
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: COMPREHENDI because it just provides a different level of appreciation

546
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: for perspective on this. It's it's not just as simple

547
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: as yes and.

548
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: Noah, it's not. And you know, I'm a dad, you know,

549
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean, first and foremost in a husband, but a dad,

550
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: you know who I think like I do put myself

551
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: in the position of those people who are the honest skeptics.

552
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: I'm an honest skeptic. You know, most scientists are on

553
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: a skeptics I think, and I think that I think

554
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: that that helps you know, I would I do that

555
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: for my kid? Would I do that for my mom?

556
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: I think it makes it there you go.

557
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: No, it's in by the way, we had the exactly.

558
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: I remember that conversation you mentioned with your wife do

559
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: we do all of the shots at once.

560
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: Or do you you fish?

561
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: I quite literally had that conversation with four kids four

562
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: different times.

563
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: Uh.

564
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: We concluded all four times, let's just get it done.

565
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: But but but that it's a legitimate sensitivity. I wouldn't

566
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: call it quote unquote hesitancy in this sort of weaponized sense,

567
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: but just human And you have to acknowledge that that perspective.

568
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: I don't mock those people at all. I mean, well,

569
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: there are people who mock them. I that's not gonna work.

570
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: I mean maybe that's the number one thing about misinformation.

571
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 2: The mocking doesn't That doesn't work. It just it just

572
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: creates tribes and politicizes it even further. So try not

573
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: to do that.

574
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: God Bless, I couldn't agree more. Hey, I really appreciate

575
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: you taking the time. This was fabulous. Thanks for all

576
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: you do and keep doing what you're doing. You're your

577
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 1: your are a bright light in this darkness. Uh, And

578
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time.

579
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: He's a lot coming from you, Governor. Thank you