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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, you know, so where exactly are

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Speaker 2: you taking me today? You end up taking me all

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Speaker 2: over the place.

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Speaker 1: I'm very perky because I'm really excited to go to

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds England. It reminds me of being in

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Speaker 1: Scotland several years ago when I was taping Burke and Hare,

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Speaker 1: which is season two of tenfold More Wicked. They're not

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Speaker 1: directly related, but they're reminiscent of each other, and so

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Speaker 1: I remember walking the streets and you know, exploring this

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Speaker 1: incredible city of Edinburgh, and really learning a lot about

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Speaker 1: the history. Do you take the time to learn about

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Speaker 1: the history of any of the cities that you go to.

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Speaker 1: I know we've talked about sort of your dark tourism

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Speaker 1: when every time I asked you, I said, do you

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Speaker 1: have you been to a city? And you say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are four murders there and I investigated them. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever think about the history of a place when

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Speaker 1: you go somewhere?

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Speaker 2: Oh, believe it or not? I actually do, you know,

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Speaker 2: if I'm if I'm going to to a location that

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Speaker 2: I've never been before, I do kind of learn up,

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Speaker 2: you know, and study up on it. And you know,

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Speaker 2: like as an example, but to Montana, I did a

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Speaker 2: case out there for a show. But also it was

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Speaker 2: just fascinated, you know, with the old mindes and this

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Speaker 2: open pit mind that was not active, but it filled

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Speaker 2: up with this toxic water and it was like what

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Speaker 2: is going on here? So, you know, it's fascinating to

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Speaker 2: learn about these various places. And for me, it's usually

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Speaker 2: after I visit, unless I'm going there for a tourist aspect,

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Speaker 2: you know that I want to know more ahead of time.

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Speaker 2: But if I'm going there to work a case and

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Speaker 2: then now I see what the place is about. Then

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Speaker 2: oftentimes I come back and then I start going, well,

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Speaker 2: what is this place about?

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Speaker 1: What do you do? Paul Holes on vacation? You travel

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Speaker 1: so much? What is fun for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, my travel is work related. It's I do not

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Speaker 2: have much personal vacation stuff going on. I hope that

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Speaker 2: changes as time goes on. But you know, I've been

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Speaker 2: just been so busy outside of you know, the months

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Speaker 2: that we were shut down for the pandemic, that I

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Speaker 2: really haven't had a chance to just get out and

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Speaker 2: actually explore.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have to do the same thing, mostly

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Speaker 1: because of tenfold more Wicked. I do so much traveling

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Speaker 1: for that show. I had a conversation with my kids

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Speaker 1: last week and I said, Hey, we're thinking about vacation.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about it taking a trip? They

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Speaker 1: said great?

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Speaker 2: Where?

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Speaker 1: And I said, how do you feel about northern California?

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Speaker 2: Great?

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Speaker 1: What do you want to do? Do you want to

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Speaker 1: go hike? What do you want to do? And I said, well,

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Speaker 1: there's this case and they both go. But it just

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Speaker 1: happens when you travel a lot with your work. So

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Speaker 1: I completely understand.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I take advantage if I happen

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Speaker 2: to be in a location in which there is a

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Speaker 2: case I'm interested in, even if it's on personal vacation,

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Speaker 2: I'll go and try to swing by the location of

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Speaker 2: where the case occurred. In fact, when my younger set

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Speaker 2: of kids were in their very young days, took them

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Speaker 2: to Disneyland, and as they're taking a nap in the

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Speaker 2: hotel by Disneyland, I drove down and visited the Golden

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Speaker 2: State killer attack locations in Orange County, you know. And

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Speaker 2: that's just what I do.

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Speaker 1: And I think, to me, at least for right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a productive way to have a vacation and work

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Speaker 1: at the same time. I also hate to travel. I

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Speaker 1: hate leaving my family, so anytime I can incorporate them

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Speaker 1: in any of my travels, it's great. Well, today I

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Speaker 1: am dragging you to Liverpool, England for a wild story

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Speaker 1: about two women who are up to no good, and

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Speaker 1: it reminds me so much of William Burke and William Hare, which,

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Speaker 1: as I said, I covered in season two of tenfold

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Speaker 1: More Wicked. You don't often have for me a story

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Speaker 1: with Burke and Hare where it's sixteen murders, so I'm

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Speaker 1: averaging almost three deaths per episode for that season. It

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Speaker 1: certainly makes the climaxes of each of those episodes easier.

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Speaker 1: But it's a sad story and this one is too.

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Speaker 1: I think we'll learn a lot about it though. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene. So we are

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Speaker 1: in late eighteen hundreds and we are talking about two

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Speaker 1: widowed sisters. One is Catherine Flanagan and the other one

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Speaker 1: is her sister, Margaret. Catherine when this is all happening,

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Speaker 1: is in her late thirties and Margaret is in her

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Speaker 1: late fifties. This all plays into I'm always surprised when

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Speaker 1: people are widowed at such an early age. But of

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Speaker 1: course we're talking about the late eighteen hundreds and in

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Speaker 1: Liverpool it was a large city and it was sort

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Speaker 1: of two cities, and this was very much like Edinburgh

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Speaker 1: when I was doing the show for Burke and Hare,

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Speaker 1: where you have two different cities, you have the very

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Speaker 1: wealthy and you have the very poor. The theme for

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Speaker 1: me that I want you to think about, which is

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Speaker 1: how the environment and the diseases that are happening and

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Speaker 1: the circumstances of a city's particular era and environment can

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Speaker 1: really influence an investigation, because that's what happens here.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm looking at the location of Liverpool and it

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Speaker 2: looks like it's right on the ocean, right I believe.

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Speaker 2: So yes, Okay, so big shipping city, probably a lot

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Speaker 2: of maritime employees coming and going, so that influences, of

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Speaker 2: course that the population that's present there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, who's coming and going is important. You're right. I

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Speaker 1: get the impression. It's a very transitory city at this

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Speaker 1: point because you have immigrants from Ireland moving in and out,

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Speaker 1: which was what was happening with Scotland during this time

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Speaker 1: period also, so all of that is very important. There

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Speaker 1: are these two women who come from Ireland and they

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Speaker 1: arrive in England and they open up a boarding house,

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Speaker 1: the two of them, with money left over from the

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Speaker 1: husbands who both died. This is not some fancy, comfortable,

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Speaker 1: hygienic boarding house. This is a boarding house that's more

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Speaker 1: of a flop house for people who have no money,

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Speaker 1: who are almost destitute. And again this highlights the disparity

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Speaker 1: between the very wealthy and the very poor in the

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Speaker 1: city Liverpool, and it's very similar in all European cities

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Speaker 1: and of course American cities like New York. In the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, where you have an incredible amount of diseases, cholera, tuberculosis,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of terrible things that are passed easily, either

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Speaker 1: through the water or through the air, and so lots

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Speaker 1: of death. And that's what plays into this story. Lots

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Speaker 1: of death, and it's easy to cover up murder, I believe,

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Speaker 1: when there is a lot of potential for natural deaths

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Speaker 1: around this scene.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that in many ways has parallels to

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Speaker 2: the last few decades with the opioid crisis, in which

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Speaker 2: you have, you know, a lot of overdoses, a lot

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Speaker 2: of overdose deaths, and sometimes homicides are written off as

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Speaker 2: being an overdose and vice versa. I actually responded out

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Speaker 2: to a body dump with a woman's body, thinking it

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Speaker 2: was a homicide victim, and it turns out that she

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Speaker 2: had odd in a flophouse and the person that controlled

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Speaker 2: that house panicked and dumped her body, making it look

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Speaker 2: like a homicide, you know, and that's something that law

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Speaker 2: enforcement does deal with from time to time.

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Speaker 1: How would you tell the difference in that case, though?

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Speaker 1: How would you be able to determine whether or not

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Speaker 1: this was somebody who was injected purposely or somebody who

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Speaker 1: had odd accidentally.

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Speaker 2: Well, if the death is from the drug, then it

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Speaker 2: can become very problematic to determine if somebody is so

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Speaker 2: out of it that another person can come up and

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Speaker 2: inject them with a hot shot something that's fatal, and

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Speaker 2: then there is no signs of struggle, no signs of violence,

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Speaker 2: and then they just dumped the body. That's very difficult

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Speaker 2: from a physical evidence standpoint, whether it be at autopsy

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Speaker 2: or from the crime scene itself to differentiate. Now it

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Speaker 2: really is to the investigation and the interviews and interrogations

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Speaker 2: that happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, this story is not very clear cut, as you'll

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Speaker 1: find out. Let me set the scene a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: There's a writer named Peter Delius, and he describes the

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Speaker 1: lodging for the city's poor in the late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: as these really nasty, disgusting court dwellings where a lot

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Speaker 1: of families are living in one or two rooms. Listen

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Speaker 1: to this one toilet, of course, with no running water

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Speaker 1: that serves the entire street, and the only water came

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Speaker 1: from one solitary fountain. And I remember writing in the

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Speaker 1: birken Hare season and in other seasons that I've done

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Speaker 1: with this time period where it was safer to drink

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Speaker 1: the whiskey than it was to drink the water because

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Speaker 1: of all of the diseases. And so this is the

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Speaker 1: kind of time we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank god I live in the current era. Hey, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm a very hygienic, very clean person.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would never have guessed that. Of course

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Speaker 1: you are, yes, of course you know.

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Speaker 2: And I'll get dirty to you. I'll do whatever work

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Speaker 2: I need around the house or to go out and

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Speaker 2: explore nature, but I like to be clean and to

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Speaker 2: be in an environment like this, you know, where you're

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Speaker 2: just constantly dirty and you're exposed to all these pathogens.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Oh thank god I'm living today.

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Speaker 1: It's terrible. So these two women are actually the nicest

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Speaker 1: thing I could say, as they're brave for running a

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Speaker 1: boarding house as two women in the late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: in an area of Liverpool that really is suffering under

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Speaker 1: deep poverty, strife, exhaustion. And the sisters have been experiencing

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Speaker 1: this their entire lives because they were born just before

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Speaker 1: the Irish potato famine. So I don't think Catherine and

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Speaker 1: Margaret have ever really felt a moment of peace and

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Speaker 1: you know the name of this story is the Black Widows,

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Speaker 1: So we are not going to frame them as anything

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Speaker 1: but killers starting now. But I will say that from

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Speaker 1: the very beginning it has been a rough life for

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Speaker 1: both of these women. Catherine is the younger one and

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Speaker 1: Margaret is the elder, So when we get into this,

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Speaker 1: I think that dynamic will be pretty interesting to unpack.

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Speaker 1: They have a reputation of being rabble rousers, I guess

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Speaker 1: is the only way that I can describe them. They

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Speaker 1: are described as drunkards and dubious of character. Now the

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Speaker 1: issue with that is some of this is the very

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Speaker 1: salacious reporting of late nineteenth century newspapers, which are at

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Speaker 1: a minimum entertaining to somebody like me to read the descriptions.

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Speaker 1: But they really do sound similar to Birkenhair's wives who

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Speaker 1: were just raising hell wherever they could go. And they're

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Speaker 1: controlling this boarding house and they have Catherine has a

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Speaker 1: son and a daughter there, but there were other laborers

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Speaker 1: who were living there, and even a teenage girl, so

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Speaker 1: the house is full. They are raising hell and drinking

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Speaker 1: all the time, if we are to believe the newspapers,

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Speaker 1: and they are really setting themselves up to cause some

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Speaker 1: pretty big harm to a lot of people in this

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Speaker 1: boarding house and in this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you know, and this, you know, really does start

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Speaker 2: to set up your you know, Catherine and Margaret, straight

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Speaker 2: off the bat, you've already let me know they're suspects,

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Speaker 2: they're involved in homicides, and they are running a boarding

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Speaker 2: house in which I'm imagining there probably is a fairly

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Speaker 2: transient population that takes advantage of these cheaper boarding houses,

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Speaker 2: and some of these attendees of the boarding house may

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Speaker 2: be so transient that they don't have any family or

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Speaker 2: friends in the area that if they go missing, nobody's

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Speaker 2: reporting them as such.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. So let's talk about one of the oldest motives

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Speaker 1: in time. And this is where I ask you if

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Speaker 1: you have any cases that remind you of this Catherine

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Speaker 1: and Margaret, And I say this with every element of foreboding.

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Speaker 1: I can become very interested in insurance and the money

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Speaker 1: payout from insurance. So do you have any cases where

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Speaker 1: life insurance was the motive, whether it was between a

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Speaker 1: couple or family member in any way.

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Speaker 2: I have one case still currently unsolved, in which there

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Speaker 2: is the possibility that the motive had to do with

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Speaker 2: both life insurance policies as well as business loans that

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Speaker 2: were forgiven in the event of a death. So fundamentally,

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Speaker 2: whether it's life insurance, debt forgiveness, this is financial motive

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Speaker 2: and it really comes down to the offenders what their

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Speaker 2: skill sets are in terms of how they can benefit

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Speaker 2: from committing the crime, and they will rely upon what

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Speaker 2: they know.

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Speaker 1: Well. I will tell you that the welfare system in

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Speaker 1: Liverpool in Great Britain in the late eighteen hundreds was

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Speaker 1: very helpful to Catherine and Margaret. And here's why. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever heard of something from that time period called

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Speaker 1: a burial society?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't believe I have.

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Speaker 1: It's very interesting and I've written about it quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: So this was in the seventeen hundreds and certainly in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, and this actually does happen worldwide. There

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Speaker 1: are pockets of places in the world that do this.

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Speaker 1: So what you do is you become a member of

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Speaker 1: this burial society and it's a community and the members

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Speaker 1: pay about a pound a week, so that's let's just

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Speaker 1: say a dollar fifty American money, about a pound a

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Speaker 1: week in dues. So they are burial clubs, insurance societies,

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Speaker 1: which are basically mutual aid groups, and it helps mitigate

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Speaker 1: the funeral costs by do paying members through payouts. So

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Speaker 1: if you lose a loved one, you cash out with

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Speaker 1: this burial club and they give you money that's been

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Speaker 1: pooled by everybody else, and you know there's a preset

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Speaker 1: amount of money and you are able to pay for

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Speaker 1: the expenses, which in a society that is like Liverpool

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Speaker 1: and the late eighteen hundreds were people have very little money,

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Speaker 1: that seems like, well, who would be able to do

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Speaker 1: that and why would you do it if you are

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Speaker 1: already desperate for money? But this is a time period

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Speaker 1: when burials, religious burials are incredibly important, so this would

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Speaker 1: have been a sacrifice that a lot of people would

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Speaker 1: have made. But this is insurance and you can really

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Speaker 1: commit some insurance fraud with this sort of setup, don't

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Speaker 1: you think.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was thinking, yes, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: a form of insurance in which you have people pooling

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Speaker 2: their assets together. But it seems like it would be

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Speaker 2: so easy to set up like a pyramid scheme.

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Speaker 1: Hm.

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Speaker 2: As you mentioned, it is going to be rife with

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Speaker 2: corruption and fraud, and limited number of individuals are probably

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Speaker 2: pocketing huge amounts of money as a result.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what I find out about this

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Speaker 1: story is that there are several different levels in different

289
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 1: people that have to say okay, this sort of fraud

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Speaker 1: to make it work. You have a family member who

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Speaker 1: is insured through this burial society. So you know, if

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Speaker 1: I were to ensure my stepfather, he's not going to

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Speaker 1: like this example. But if I were to ensure my

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Speaker 1: stepfather for a pound a week he dies, I then

295
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: have to get a doctor to come and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: here is the cause of death. It can't be murdered

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Speaker 1: because I can't benefit from his murder. So the doctor says,

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Speaker 1: this is what he died from. I'm assuming it can't

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Speaker 1: be suicide. Death by suicide. But once the doctor signs

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Speaker 1: off on some cause of death, which in Liverpool in

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Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds is probably tuberculosis, cholera, dysenterio, you know,

302
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Speaker 1: there's a whole list of options. Then you go to

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Speaker 1: the society, the burial club, and you have a representative

304
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Speaker 1: who works with you and you get the money. So

305
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 1: there are a couple of different steps that you have

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Speaker 1: to go through. It's not as easy as I thought,

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Speaker 1: but you're right, this is rife for corruption, absolutely well.

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Speaker 2: And here you have a doctor who's basically all controlling,

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Speaker 2: so you know, you get a doctor on the take, right,

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Speaker 2: and you are able to then have doctor sign a

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Speaker 2: death certificate indicating that death was due to one of

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Speaker 2: these qualifying diseases, and now you have an easy way

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Speaker 2: to dispose of victims. Right.

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Speaker 1: So there had been investigations of these burial societies and

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Speaker 1: fraud happening. They were invaluable too, I would say the

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Speaker 1: majority of the people who use them, of course, because

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Speaker 1: they wanted a proper Christian burial for people. So it

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Speaker 1: was a small amount to pay, it seems, in order

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Speaker 1: to have a nice funeral for someone and that was

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Speaker 1: a big value for them. But there were of course

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Speaker 1: rumors that the clubs were abused, and there was an investigation.

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Speaker 1: But this is terrible. I think an investigation that revealed

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Speaker 1: that there was a case of parents who knew that

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Speaker 1: their child was terminally ill, and the parents joined as

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00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,399
Speaker 1: many as twenty different burial clubs, so they knew he

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Speaker 1: was going to die, and then they would collect on

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Speaker 1: each one of these, which was illegal. Of course, that's terrible.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, they're basically compounding their financial gain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And of course then there were rumors that

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Speaker 1: there were due paying members who were committing murders to

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Speaker 1: collect the funeral payout. Again, that comes back to life insurance.

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Speaker 1: People who kill for life insurance. I wouldn't say it

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Speaker 1: happens all the time, but of course it happens, Yes.

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Speaker 2: It absolutely does. You know one of the prime theetomotives

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Speaker 2: for murder is for financial gain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's jump into this story. This happens in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty December. Catherine has a twenty two year old son, John,

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Speaker 1: and he has developed a sudden illness while he's living

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Speaker 1: in the boarding house and he becomes incredibly ill. We

340
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Speaker 1: don't know a lot about his symptoms. He's twenty two,

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Speaker 1: so he's young, and even though we're in this era

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Speaker 1: where people are living in squalor, it seems odd that

343
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Speaker 1: he would have developed a sudden illness. But of course

344
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Speaker 1: there's tuberculosis that go from room to room in Burke

345
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Speaker 1: and Hare. The boarding house that Burke Andhair used was

346
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,440
Speaker 1: shut down many times because there was tuberculosis or color

347
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Speaker 1: or something in the boarding house with one of the tenants,

348
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Speaker 1: and it would get out people would hear about it

349
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Speaker 1: and they would shutter the boarding house for a very

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Speaker 1: long time, and people couldn't afford to do that, so

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00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 1: they would lie or cover it up or something to

352
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Speaker 1: protect the business. So in this case, you've got this

353
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Speaker 1: twenty two year old, seemingly in good health son who

354
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Speaker 1: develops a sudden illness. And again we come back to

355
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Speaker 1: this was something that could be blamed potentially on something

356
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Speaker 1: that was a disease, a common disease of the time,

357
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Speaker 1: because the doctor who examined him certified his cause of

358
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: death as bronchitis.

359
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 2: Okay, which is a very general diagnosis, and you know,

360
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: something like the flu is going to cause similar aspects

361
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, this inflammation that the doctor

362
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: is saying inside the lawn. Right.

363
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Speaker 1: When we get further into the story, I'll be interested

364
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: in hearing about your reaction to the bronchitis diagnosis, because

365
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a little odd. So we talk about

366
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Speaker 1: the money. The doctor has signed off on a death

367
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: certificate and John's mother, Catherine, goes to collect the payout

368
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Speaker 1: and it's seventy one pounds. So I hate math. I

369
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: did the conversion just for you, but I hate math.

370
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 1: So that is worth more than seven thousand pounds today,

371
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Speaker 1: which is worth more than eight thousand dollars today. To

372
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 1: a very poor family, this would have been a big

373
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Speaker 1: deal and Catherine collects it so already we're very suspicious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I know a lot of people express surprise,

375
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 2: you know, when when parents are involved in you know,

376
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Speaker 2: the killing of their offspring, of their children. But parents

377
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: are the number one killer of children. And if the

378
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: parent can somehow benefit, you know, from that death, it's

379
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: not just because they're in a fit of rage against

380
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: the child, but if there's some sort of benefit, like

381
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: in this situation, financial it happens. It's not that uncommon.

382
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: Under what circumstances would you take out a life insurance

383
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 1: policy on a child?

384
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 2: Well, that's you know, that's something that of course, that

385
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: is being paid attention to, is that if you have

386
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 2: a life insurance policy that is on a child, and

387
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 2: that child dies an unexpected death and maybe under suspicious circumstances,

388
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 2: then that life insurance policy is a red flag that

389
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 2: investigators are going to hone in on because that is

390
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 2: an unusual setup. Generally, life insurance policies are there in

391
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: order to support the family after the I'm mary person

392
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: who is responsible for the financial income dies, and the

393
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: children typically don't have that type of financial income. There

394
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: may be circumstances in which, you know, there's bona fide

395
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: reasons to have a life insurance policy on a child,

396
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 2: but under the auspices of a suspicious death, and if

397
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: there is a life insurance policy on a child, that's

398
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: something that of course is going to draw the attention

399
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 2: of law enforcement.

400
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: I'm a little confused about what Catherine did. So this

401
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: is what happened. We find out that ten weeks prior,

402
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: she had taken out policies in John's name from various

403
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: insurance societies. So if I did the math, and I

404
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: hate math, but if I do the math, and let's

405
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: say she just goes to one society that is ten weeks,

406
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: that's ten pounds that she paid. Her total payout was

407
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: just seventy one pounds. So let's say she only goes

408
00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 1: to one other society, She's paid twenty pounds over ten weeks,

409
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: and her payout is seventy one pounds. That doesn't seem

410
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,239
Speaker 1: like a massive payout. So maybe she's smart because that

411
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: won't attract attention. It doesn't make sense to take out

412
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: an insurance policy and wait one week and then kill

413
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: the person.

414
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know, if you see a life insurance

415
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: policy that has been taken out right before the death,

416
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: then yes, you know, obviously there's maybe a connection, you know,

417
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: between that life insurance policy and the reason that the

418
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: victim died. This concept though, of what Catherine's doing, Yeah,

419
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: I almost wonder it's with her child. But is this

420
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: a trial run, you know, where now she's learning the

421
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 2: process she's seeing. Okay, I put ten pounds in, I

422
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: get thirty pounds out. You know, I'm tripling my investment. Well,

423
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: let's say I do this over and over and over again.

424
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: I can pretty quickly accumulate a level of wealth.

425
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: And I think she and her sister both are clever

426
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: in the way that they do some of this. But

427
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: let's see what you think. So in October of eighteen

428
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: eighty two, so this is less than two years later.

429
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: There's a big gap here. But less than two years later, Margaret,

430
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: Mary's a border named Thomas Higgins. He has a daughter

431
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: who's eight years old named Mary. Margaret takes out a

432
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: policy on Mary, and less than two months later, before

433
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: the end of the year, Mary develops a sudden in

434
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: intense illness, same trajectory as John's illness. She never recovers.

435
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: She dies within a week of developing these symptoms, and

436
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: a different doctor certified her cause of death as bronchitis.

437
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: Margaret gets twenty two pounds, so this is far less

438
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: than what she had gotten with John. But still, you know,

439
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about a chunk of money for a stepdaughter

440
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: who she only had for less than two months essentially, right, But.

441
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: It's still an investment. There's less money going in, it's

442
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 2: a positive investment. Less money going in, more money coming out.

443
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 2: And in addition to how much money is coming out

444
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: of this insurance, there's also well how much money was

445
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: being spent on this eight year old girl in terms

446
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 2: of food, clothing, et cetera.

447
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and my concern is Catherine's ability to kill her

448
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: own son and Margaret's ability to kill an eight year

449
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: old child.

450
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's horrific, you know, in order to

451
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: be able to prey on these younger you know, the

452
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: son was twenty two, he's an adult, you know, but

453
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: obviously there's that parent child relationship and then now an

454
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: eight year old girl at for financial gain. It really

455
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: underscores almost a psychopathic type of mentality, lack of empathy,

456
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: only thinking of yourself because you want to benefit from

457
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: the offering and death of this young child.

458
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: Do you think that this is something that they were

459
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: just it's like psychopathy, like they were just inherently born

460
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: with this or could this be something that was really

461
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I've told you the kind of environment that

462
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: came from a very difficult life for two women. And

463
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: then of course we could say there were plenty of

464
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: people who were raised in that environment and didn't turn

465
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: out to be killers, but certainly their environment couldn't have helped, now, you.

466
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: Know, And that's it's really hard to say, you know,

467
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: from afar even with current day offenders in terms of

468
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 2: well why do they do what they do? You know,

469
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: is there something innate within what they were born with

470
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: that predisposed them to commit these crimes? Is it something

471
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 2: that they were exposed to as they grew up? And

472
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: you know, I know, you know, my opinion right now

473
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: is it's a combination of both. I do believe that

474
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: there's some genetic predisposition plus environmental exposure that contributes to

475
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 2: somebody turning into you know, let's say you know, somebody

476
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: who is going to be committing violent crimes with Margaret

477
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 2: and Catherine. You know, after such a long time, I

478
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: know so little about them. Yeah, it's hard to say,

479
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: you know, are they true psychopaths? You know, they're demonstrating

480
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: a selfishness, if you will, that they're willing to take

481
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: somebody else's life for their own financial gain. It doesn't appear,

482
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 2: at least on the surface, that they're doing this for

483
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: fantasy motivated purposes, for sexual motivated purposes. This appears to

484
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 2: be purely financial.

485
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: So a month after the stepdaughter Mary dies, there's a

486
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: new tenant. She is sixteen, her name is Maggie Jennings,

487
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: and shortly after she moved in and she also died

488
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: from a sudden illness. We don't have a lot of

489
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: information on the exact symptoms of the first two victims

490
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: who died from what the doctor said was wronchitis. I

491
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: think we can make some assumptions coughing and wheezing and

492
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, all of that, but these are some very

493
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: specific symptoms that we find. With Maggie Jennings, she had weakness, fatigue, vomiting,

494
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: and diarrhea, which is very different. So the father of Maggie,

495
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: the tenant, who was sixteen, is shocked. She had always

496
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: been a strong, healthy girl, according to him, and it

497
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: sounds like according to a book called The Black Widows

498
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: of Liverpool, it sounds like Katherine was often Maggie's caretaker

499
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: and Catherine denied that Maggie was experiencing vomiting in diarrhea.

500
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: She said, actually, what Maggie was experiencing was more like bronchitis.

501
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that Catherine did that because diarrhea and

502
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: vomiting would cause more suspicion and might be more attached

503
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: to potential poisoning rather than bronchitis.

504
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: You know, maybe, but considering the types of diseases that

505
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: are going around, you know, diarrhea and vomiting would be

506
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: a common symptom that people would would have, you know.

507
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: So that's that's where I would be a little bit

508
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: confused and in some ways to have let's say, at

509
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: this point, three victims all dying in the same way

510
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: with a vague diagnosis of bronchitis, versus maybe, oh, we've

511
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: got another person who died a different way. In some ways,

512
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: that dilutes suspicion, because that would probably be more in

513
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: line with this person died of being exposed to a

514
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: different pathogen than the first two.

515
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: Well, whatever Catherine said about Maggie's death worked with the doctor,

516
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: because the doctor certified her cause of death as pneumonia,

517
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: so he believed her or she was paying him off,

518
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: one or the other. So I'll start to wonder whether

519
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: or not these doctors were being paid off, the ones

520
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: who were saying bronchitis and pneumonia versus what it sounds

521
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: like the other tenants were saying about the diarrhea and

522
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: the vomiting. But we can move forward. So the sisters,

523
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: of course go and make a collection of the payment

524
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: for Maggie's death. They get less than fifty pounds, which

525
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: is about five thousand pounds today, which I would say

526
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: is in the seven thousand dollars range from the burial societies.

527
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: This is a lot of money for that time period.

528
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: When did Maggie die relative to the other two.

529
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: So there's a two year difference between the first and

530
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: the second one. There is a several week difference, okay,

531
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: between Maggie and the stepdaughter.

532
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: Sure, so for that two year timeframe, obviously the seventy

533
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 2: one pounds, they're probably eating into that stash of money

534
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: just for living expenses and whatever else. You know, they're

535
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: buying their alcohol and whatever else they're doing for those

536
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: two years. But then now between the last two now

537
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: you start to see where they could be establishing a

538
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: growing account of money, because I doubt they are spending

539
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: that money as fast as they're earning it. If it's

540
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars per death, yep.

541
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: I think what triggered suspicion, because there was then suspicion,

542
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: is that these two deaths came so quickly, the eight

543
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: year old and the sixteen year old, it seems like

544
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: came within weeks of each other. And I think that's

545
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: when people started the rumor to probably not stay at

546
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: Catherine and Margaret's boarding house because it was a home

547
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: of death, it sounded like. And the sisters start backing

548
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: off of any more murders for just a little while,

549
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: I think, to quell suspicions.

550
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that would make sense, you know, obviously,

551
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: if they don't have borders coming in and their victim

552
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: pool starts to dry up.

553
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: So Mary, who is the eight year old girl, her

554
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: father Thomas and Margaret are still married. He suspects nothing,

555
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: and about a year after his daughter's death, Thomas agrees

556
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: with Margaret that they can move out of the boarding

557
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: house and they move into a seller apartment nearby. So

558
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: forty five year old Thomas, the husband, starts suffering from fever, weakness,

559
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: vomiting diarrhea. They are killing the people closest to them.

560
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: They are killing at one border, but everybody else's family.

561
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: And we can see he dies. He died, and this

562
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: is like unreal to me that they just keep killing

563
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: people so close to them.

564
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and did Thomas have any life insurance policy on him?

565
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: Doy, I would be a waste of time. Otherwise, one

566
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: hundred pounds, so that's more than ten thousand pounds today,

567
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: which may makes sense because he is her husband, he

568
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: is the breadwinner. I mean, I don't know what justified

569
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: her putting out a burial insurance policy on a border

570
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: the sixteen year old boarder, but she did, and I

571
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: think that might have made people suspicious. But this was

572
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: a big payout when Thomas died, okay.

573
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: And the doctor ends up signing off the death certificate

574
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: and what does he indicate?

575
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: Thomas died of dysentery due to drinking bad whiskey. I

576
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: didn't think there was bad whiskey, but I guess there's bad.

577
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: Do you think, Paul, have you ever had bad No,

578
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: not poorly made whiskey, but whiskey that could kill you.

579
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: What does that even mean? Does that mean it goes bad?

580
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: What makes it bad whiskey?

581
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: You know, whiskey generally is forty percent alcohol. There's not

582
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: very many pathogens that are going to survive in whiskey,

583
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure you know in terms of whiskey

584
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: back then, what could have been present or could have

585
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: contributed to the ingestion of some sort of pathogen that

586
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: could have led to Thomas's death. I just don't know.

587
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: What I wonder is what if a lot of whiskey

588
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: sold at pubs then was really watered down because they

589
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: were so poor. And I wonder if they had some

590
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: terrible water that just had some whiskey in it. And

591
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's kind of what he meant, But

592
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: we don't know. And then I need you to explain

593
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: dysentery to me without grossing us out too much. I

594
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: should have a caveat to not be eating when we

595
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: talk about these sorts of stories.

596
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: Most certainly if it's very very weak in terms of

597
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: the alcohol, then the possibility of some sort of microorganism

598
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: proliferating growing in there. It's just like with other foods

599
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 2: that we have now. Generally, these microorganisms need to have

600
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: some sort of substance that they thrive off of, like sugars.

601
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: You know that they can you know, grow and then

602
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 2: produce their toxins, or if they're ingested, they end up

603
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: you ingest a large number of these microorganisms in a

604
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: food poisoning scenario. So it really just depends what was

605
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: going on at the time with this whiskey. If the

606
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: doctor's saying bad whiskey, then maybe this was a common

607
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: thing that he was seeing that was contributing to a

608
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: disease state.

609
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: So Margaret the wife collects ten thousand pounds worth of

610
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: today money, and Thomas's brother is calling bullshit on this.

611
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: He says, there is no way my healthy forty five

612
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: year old brother, who did drink but not to excess,

613
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: he says, would have died. When he starts his own

614
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: little investigation, Patrick the brother finds out that there have

615
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: been several lodgers at the Flanagan Sisters boarding house that

616
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: have died from several illnesses. He goes from being suspicious

617
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: to being very alarmed. He goes to local insurance and

618
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: burial society offices and he finds out that Margaret has

619
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: taken out several claims on Thomas's life ahead of this death.

620
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: And then he goes to the doctor that certified the

621
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: brother's death and shared his suspicions about foul play. This

622
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: doctor seems on the up and up because together they

623
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: go to the police and they say something here is wrong.

624
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: So I think that Thomas's symptoms of vomiting and diarrhea

625
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: were the real symptoms, and the doctor really did his

626
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: best to say, Okay, you're right, this is what I

627
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: think it was. If we're assuming probably this is the

628
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: same poison that was used on all of these people,

629
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: their symptoms wouldn't be so wide as going from coughing

630
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: and struggling from bronchitis to vomiting in diarrhea.

631
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, because we are still evaluating these cases

632
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: under this umbrella of all these disease states, and you

633
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: have diseases that are being passed frequently in these close

634
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: environments in which I would imagine you have a lot

635
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: of people that are coffee, right, and you also have

636
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: a lot of people who have diarrhea throwing up, you know,

637
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: And so that's where for one of these victims to

638
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: have this, the symptoms of vomiting and diarrhea, to raise

639
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: suspicion that there is maybe purposeful infliction on these victims

640
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: by Margaret and Catherine. That's where I'm confused as to Okay,

641
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: I'd understand why the difference in symptoms would raise suspicion

642
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: considering the environment in which we are working with.

643
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. I think people initially became suspicious because

644
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: the two deaths were very close, and I think Patrick

645
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: was very alarmed by saying, there's no way my brother,

646
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: who is perfectly healthy, died of this. And I don't

647
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: know why he was so certain, but he went to

648
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: the police, and the police said, okay, we will investigate.

649
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: They go to Margaret's seller apartment, because remember she and

650
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: Thomas moved out of the boarding house and moved close by.

651
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: They just, by happenstance, walk into Thomas's wake which is

652
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: happening at the cellar apartment. But it's a party. The

653
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: sisters are both drunk and they're in a celebratory mood,

654
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: and they're having a great time with their other drunk friends.

655
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: This is of course with the caveat that, you know,

656
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: blah blah. Nineteenth century newspapers are not particularly reliable, but

657
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: they're having a great time. Seems very alarming to the police.

658
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: And as Catherine watches the police walk through the door,

659
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: she bolts in her black dress. She runs, and the

660
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: police turned to Margaret, the sister, and they said, I

661
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: know this is a wake.

662
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: I know.

663
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: We would traditionally bury your husband quickly. That's not happening

664
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: this time. We are going to do an autopsy. I'm

665
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: sure that made her really upset, really mad.

666
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, good for law enforcement, you know, to at

667
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: least now intercede and do something that is necessary in

668
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: these types of deaths. In fact, I would agine that

669
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: these other these prior deaths, you know, you have a

670
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: doctor signing off on the death certificate, and even in

671
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: this day and age, that can happen. But the coroners

672
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: always has the authority to say, oh no, no, you know,

673
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: we want to take a look at this particular case.

674
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: So at least now with Thomas, they're going to go

675
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: and take a look at what was going on with his.

676
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: Body, and what's going on with his body is very

677
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: concerning for the coroner. Let's play a little game. I've

678
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: told you all these symptoms. What do you think the

679
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: poison is. Well, we'll putting you on the spot.

680
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: Which you know which symptoms can we rely upon. We've

681
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: got several victims with bronchitis, and with Thomas, we've got

682
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: vomiting and diarrhea.

683
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: Let's vote for vomiting and diarrhea. Because the doctor who

684
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: agreed with that and said dysentery by drinking bad whiskey,

685
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: as weird as that sounds, clearly then went to the

686
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: police and said something's wrong. So I think he he's

687
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: the only doctor we can believe at this point versus

688
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: bronchitis and pneumonia. So if we're sticking with those symptoms vomiting, diarrhea, indigestion,

689
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: what does that say to you?

690
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 2: Of course, there's a variety of poisons that potentially will

691
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 2: result in those types of symptoms, but right now, in

692
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: terms of what poison that they could have been using,

693
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm very interested to see what you

694
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: end up telling me here.

695
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: I bet our audience can guess the most well known

696
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: poison in the nineteenth century where women often used it

697
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: to kill their husbands, and it was found in rough

698
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: on rats, which was the rat poison. So that's arsenic, okay,

699
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: arsenic all around, traces of arsenic all through his system.

700
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: He had been poisoned consistently over several days. And then

701
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: they investigate the sellar apartment of Margaret's and they found

702
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: traces of arsenic in the bottles that were found there

703
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: on her apron that she had been wearing regularly. So

704
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: they really did their due diligence, and toxicology, as bizarre

705
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: as it sometimes sounds, was really developing well in the

706
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds. So this was the perfect storm of

707
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: toxicology as a forensic tool working very quickly to keep

708
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: up with poisoners who were able to access arsenic very

709
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 1: easily in the mid to late eighteen hundreds.

710
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and something like arsenic, you know, because

711
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 2: it is this element. This is where you know, back

712
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: in the late eighteen hundreds, your chemists had these tests

713
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: that could be done in order to determine whether or

714
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: not arsenic was present. You know, these microcrystal tests for example,

715
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: relative to more of your organic type poisons which oftentimes

716
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: you can't detect with your standard what we call qualitative

717
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: chemical analysis. Now you need more modern instrumentation in order

718
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 2: to detect those.

719
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: Well, the police were able to detect enough to say, Okay,

720
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 1: something bad has been happening. Here, give us the list

721
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: of the other people who have died in these sisters' lives.

722
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: So they have now exhumed the bodies of Catherine's twenty

723
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: two year old son John, of Mary, the eight year

724
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: old stepdaughter of Margaret, and then Maggie, the sixteen year

725
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: old tenant. All of the bodies were exhumed. Remember John

726
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: had officially died of wronchitis. They looked and he had

727
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: perfectly healthy lungs and a healthy heart, but he had

728
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: very large amount of arsenic in his liver and his

729
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: kidneys and his attestants and his spleen. And the eight

730
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: year old also had a considerable amount of arsenic in

731
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: her internal organs. Clearly this is the same poison. And

732
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: I will say I'm confused by and maybe you can

733
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: help me. So aside from Thomas, the second latest person

734
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: to die was the sixteen year old. Her body, strangely

735
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,479
Speaker 1: was a lot more decomposed than the other bodies, even

736
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: though they had buried her. Later, it was determined that Maggie,

737
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: the sixteen year old, had died from pneumonia and was

738
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: likely suffering from acute disease of the lungs at the

739
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: time of her death. So she did have pneumonia at

740
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: the time of her death. However, it would not have

741
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: been a fatal case according to the coroner. But she

742
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: also had arsenic found in organs. So does it say

743
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: anything that her body is more decomposed. Let's assume nobody

744
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: here has been embalmed. Of course.

745
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 2: Now you know, there's so many variables as to why

746
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 2: somebody may decompose faster than another. You know, maybe some

747
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: of these individuals were buried quicker. Maybe her body was

748
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: left exposed at room temperature for a longer period of

749
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: time than you know, being down in a protected environment

750
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: in the ground. Who knows. You know, I don't think

751
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: it's anything that on the surface is suspicious, but you know,

752
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: you have to evaluate everything, you know in terms of, okay,

753
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: why is there something different here and what does it mean?

754
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: Can you explain it through okay circumstances? Or was something

755
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: else done to her that may have sped up the

756
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 2: decompositional process.

757
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: Well, it seems like an airtight case here because you've

758
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: got these victims who have all had arsenic in their

759
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: system and a variety of symptoms according to various doctors.

760
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: It seems clear that it is some sort of like

761
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: murder for insurance scheme that's happening. Margaret is arrested because

762
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: she's the one caught there at Thomas's wake. Catherine's on

763
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: the run, but she only lasted a few days. She

764
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: had been hiding in boarding houses and finally a landlady

765
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: called authorities and recognized her because the news had gotten

766
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: out and they had put a sketch out of her face.

767
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: And Catherine, when placed under pressure from the police, flips

768
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: on her sister. Oh, Catherine said, Margaret was the one

769
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: who was the mastermind of all this. Have you had

770
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: family members flip on each other before?

771
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: I mean most certainly. You know you do have family

772
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: that will give up somebody, you know, because they you know,

773
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: they're going, no, we don't want to be associated with

774
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 2: this person who did a bad thing. We don't want

775
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: our lives impacted because this person did something. But here

776
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: you have you know, Catherine and Margaret are both complicit

777
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: in committing these crimes. Now, you know, Catherine, it's limiting

778
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: the impact of whatever criminal charges and you know, sentencing

779
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 2: maybe coming down the pipe. You know, I am kind

780
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: of curious though, is that? Obviously? You know right now

781
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: you've got all these bodies that have arsenic in it.

782
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: You have the locations the boarding house, the basement apartment

783
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: that are contaminated with arsenic. But what is the route

784
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: of ingestion? How is Margaret and Catherine giving the victims

785
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 2: the arsenic? Is this in the food? Is this in water?

786
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: I think it is food or water and I'm not sure.

787
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: And maybe this can give you some more information. So

788
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: Catherine's hoping for clemency, so she is giving up all

789
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: sorts of information. She is blaming Margaret, And she said,

790
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: when asked how Margaret was poisoning the victims, listen to this,

791
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: She said, Margaret had a history of poisoning people by

792
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: taking flypaper which had arsenic on it and soaking it

793
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: in water. And that's how she created the solution to

794
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: kill people. First of all, how would you even know

795
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 1: what ratio of fly paper to water would be fatal

796
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: with someone? Maybe she was trying this out with John.

797
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: I don't know.

798
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think what's important is that she minimally knows that,

799
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, doing a water extraction from this fly paper

800
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: is going to extract arsenic. And now she has a

801
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 2: solution of arsenic. And of course the more fly paper

802
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: that she extracts into the same volume of water, the

803
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: more concentrated this arsenic can get. I doubt if she,

804
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: you know, had any type of quantitative analysis going on

805
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: to say, okay, I now you know, have so much

806
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: arsenic in solution. She just recognized, possibly after John's that

807
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: if this was the process, and she knew if I

808
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: extract you know, let's say three sheets of this fly

809
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: paper in this volume of water, and I give this

810
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: to a victim over the course of two days, it

811
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 2: is fatal. Yeah, you know, And as long as I

812
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: keep it at this level or higher than I will

813
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 2: have success in killing future victims.

814
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 1: And I have certainly written about people who have trial

815
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: runs on animals with poisoning before.

816
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: Yes that in fact, there is a case that I'm

817
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: familiar with in which a husband with his mistress decided

818
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: to kill his pregnant wife, and the first early attempts

819
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: to do that was to use chocolate laced with cyanide,

820
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: and the initial batch that they made with this chocolate

821
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 2: they tested on a cat and the cat survived. You know,

822
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: cats can handle.

823
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: A lot what I didn't know.

824
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: Nine lives right, But fundamentally it's a different organism, you know,

825
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: it's a different you know, so you can't necessarily relate

826
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: what happens to the animal to the impact it's going

827
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 2: to have on a person, you know. And ultimately, because

828
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: of the failure with the test on the animal, they

829
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: resorted to shooting the wife, who fortunately survived. But that

830
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: is a you know something when people are inexperienced and

831
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: it's like, well is this going to work? Yeah, there

832
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: is going to be that trial run.

833
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if John was the trial run, but

834
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: that's the start of it. And there might have been

835
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,959
Speaker 1: more victims that they never knew of because Catherine has

836
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: some information that the police had never heard of before.

837
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 1: She said, did you know that Margaret's not the only

838
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: one who does this in Liverpool? She gave police the

839
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: names of up to seven other victims, all women who

840
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: had been killed for burial cost insurance. And it was

841
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: a network that they claimed of women who were killing

842
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: other women to collect on the insurance policies. The police

843
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 1: checked every name of the victims that Catherine had given them,

844
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: and they all belonged to women who had died under

845
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: mysterious circumstances. I'm assuming symptoms of bronchitis and dysenterian and

846
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: everything else you can think of. But they really are

847
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: trying to concentrate on this one case. Yet intrigued, I'm

848
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: sure by the idea of a group of women who

849
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: are all killing other people to collect on the money.

850
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: Have you heard of this sort of network before? Or

851
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine you could keep that a secret

852
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: if you have enough people involved.

853
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in some ways this is organized crime.

854
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: It is.

855
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 2: This is interesting in terms of this black widow type

856
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: of killer, and that there's a network of these black widows.

857
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious. Is that if Catherine knows about this,

858
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: then there must be some sort of Is there communication

859
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 2: between this network, which of course now lends it into

860
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: this organized capacity. Is there also a transfer of knowledge

861
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: and how to do it not only the financial manipulations

862
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: and maybe which doctors to go to, yep, but how

863
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 2: to actually commit the homicides with the arsenic The interesting

864
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: thing thing is is the you know, sort of the

865
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: fraud aspect in this network, you know, the manipulation of

866
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: this burial insurance m.

867
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: I find it so fascinating because I think you most

868
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: definitely have to know who to go to at these

869
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: burial societies who are either willing to take a payout

870
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: or who you know, are at least sympathetic, or who

871
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: don't ask questions. I think that that is probably the

872
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: case with the doctors. I think the research is that

873
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: probably the doctors were sort of unknowing, and they tried

874
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: to trace money everywhere, and they just could not. Police

875
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: could not make the connection between staff members of certain

876
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: burial societies and particular doctors. You know, of course everything

877
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: is cash, so they're not going to be able to

878
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: trace something. It's useless. Yeah, And regardless, they were not

879
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: able to make a case for anybody else. But it

880
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 1: seems certain that this became a way that some people

881
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: did collect money for murder. And so it was intriguing

882
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: to hear that from Catherine, who is desperately trying to

883
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: literally save her own neck because she is scared of

884
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 1: being executed. And I wish I had a reaction from Margaret.

885
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: We could have had a camera in Margaret's cell when

886
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 1: she found out what Catherine did, that she had turned

887
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: on her. So Catherine was a younger sister. The police

888
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: at the very end, even though Catherine has given them

889
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: all of this information about this potential network of black

890
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: widows and this is how my sister killed people, all

891
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: of this information, it didn't matter. They didn't give her

892
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: any clemency, no leniency. The trial took three days in

893
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty four. Of course we took about quick trials.

894
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: Actually three days seems pretty long to me, but the

895
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: jury took forty minutes to deliberate, and of course they

896
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: were found guilty. They were hanged together just another month later. Yeah,

897
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: the story and hanging a woman in the late eighteen

898
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: hundreds was no small deal. It was a really big deal.

899
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: But I think that the city was just disgusted with

900
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: what happened, and it seemed like the right thing to do.

901
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: Whether it was or not, but this was revolting to

902
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: people that they were preying on the people closest to them,

903
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 1: or a young boarder, and they would have kept going

904
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: had they not been caught.

905
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm wondering if the police, you know, with

906
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 2: Catherine flipping, did the police confront Margaret and say, hey,

907
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 2: Catherine is trying to pin everything on you, what do

908
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: you have to say, you know, try to play Catherine

909
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 2: against Margaret. Did Margaret ever make any admissions to being

910
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: involved in.

911
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: These No, not that I know of. I think she

912
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: feigned innocence the entire time. Okay, I think she denied it,

913
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: just as Catherine denied her own involvement. This story highlights

914
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: the vulnerability of people living in extreme poverty and who

915
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: are dependent on other people who are providing them shelter

916
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: and food and something to drink, and just how quickly

917
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: things can turn for them.

918
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: As you were talking about this case, you know, I

919
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 2: of course, starting in the eighth grade, you know, going

920
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: through high school, et cetera, was in the kind of

921
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: the Sacramento area, living in a town Vacaville. And this

922
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 2: was when we had a case that occurred up in Sacramento,

923
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: which was Dorothea Plenty, and she was an elderly woman

924
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 2: that ran a boarding house in Sacramento and she was

925
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: killing her borders for their social Security checks or something,

926
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 2: you know, bearing the bodies. I think under the house.

927
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: This is a modern day example with Plenty to what

928
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 2: Catherine and Margaret were doing. Just I think Plente was

929
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: using a different means in order to kill her victims,

930
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, so it's still happening absolutely.

931
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I love Arsenic and Old Lace, which was

932
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: billed as a comedy, the movie with two old, adorable

933
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: old women who are killing all of these pensioners and

934
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: keeping their Social Security money. And I think that with

935
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: poisoners there is a distance. You don't have to be

936
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: there when it happens, and it doesn't feel to me

937
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: as so confrontational. I mean, it seems to me that

938
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: it's a means to an end for them. And with

939
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: these two women to poison a teenager and a child,

940
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: their stepchild, it's just incredible. And to have this vision

941
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,479
Speaker 1: of the two of them hanging next to each other

942
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: just seems like an ending that I would have expected

943
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: for late eighteen hundreds England.

944
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: It does appear that over the eons, women who are

945
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: involved in this type of crime generally do resort to

946
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: poisoning or drugging their victims.

947
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a long story that has been

948
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: and I think fascinating because I love toxicology, I don't

949
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: hardly understand it, but I'm getting better at it. But

950
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: you understand it, and that's all that counts.

951
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: You know, to a point. You know, I even though

952
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: I had a job title as forensic toxicologist early on,

953
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 2: and when I first started my career with the Sheriff's office,

954
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't doing toxicology per se. I was doing drug

955
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: analysis and alcohol analysis. I never did work in toxicology,

956
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 2: but I did take this environmental toxicology course for my

957
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: degree at It's fascinating. Environmental toxicology is a component you

958
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 2: know in terms of what you're exposed to, but you

959
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: know in terms of how toxins work in the body.

960
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:51,479
Speaker 2: It is fascinating and most certainly it's something that can

961
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 2: be a brutal way to die. These victims last, you know,

962
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,879
Speaker 2: a few days of their life, must have just been

963
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: horrifically paid full and miserable.

964
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, I'll be happy to be out of Liverpool

965
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: just for a while. We'll revisit England certainly at some point.

966
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: But this is a difficult case and thank you for

967
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: helping me guide us through it.

968
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 2: I don't know how much guiding I did on this.

969
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 2: What did a good job so fascinating case. And as

970
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: I mentioned, I've got a modern example of basically somebody

971
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: who was doing what Margaret and Catherine are doing, underscores

972
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 2: that what was happening back in the eighteen hundreds is

973
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 2: still happening today.

974
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: We always say it's the reverberations through history. Something happens

975
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: three hundred years ago, and we see it again and

976
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 1: again and again.

977
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 2: That's right.

978
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, Paul. We'll see you next week.

979
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: Sounds great, kay, Thank you.

980
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

981
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrpmedia dot com slash Buried Bones.

982
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

983
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

984
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scolacci.

985
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

986
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

987
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

988
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

989
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

990
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

991
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode The

992
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now

993
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

994
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now.