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Speaker 1: This morning, the Supreme Court accepted a case that could

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Speaker 1: deal a major blow to the finances and influence of

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Speaker 1: unions in this country. For the second time, the Justices

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Speaker 1: will try to decide whether five million government workers can

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Speaker 1: refuse to pay union fees. Last March, the Justice is

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Speaker 1: deadlocked four to four on the issue. The Justices will

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Speaker 1: consider overturning a nine seventies seven ruling that lets public

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Speaker 1: sector unions in twenty two states demand fees from workers

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Speaker 1: who are not members, called agency fees. My guest is

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Speaker 1: Steven Sanders. He is a professor at the University of Indiana,

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Speaker 1: our School of Law. Steve described the basic issue here, urge.

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Speaker 1: The basic issue is if you belong to a union.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Um, you pay dues and has understood that

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Speaker 1: your membership fees not only defree the cost of the

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Speaker 1: union representing you and negotiating on your behalf. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: unions also engage in political activities and take political stances. Um,

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Speaker 1: what's an issue here are the fees paid by non

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Speaker 1: members of unions who are still nonetheless represented by the

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Speaker 1: union in their workplace. And these are we're talking here

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Speaker 1: about government employees, public sector employees not in this case

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Speaker 1: Private Employees Um, the Supreme Court set in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: seven that people in that position, non members of a

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Speaker 1: union who are still represented by the union, cannot be

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Speaker 1: compelled to pay for any political activities the union engages in,

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Speaker 1: like endorsing a candidate or taking a position on abortion

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Speaker 1: rights or same sex marriage, but they can be required

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Speaker 1: to pay a fee to defray their fair share of

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Speaker 1: the costs of the union directly representing them and bargaining

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Speaker 1: on their behalf. The argument is if people could opt

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Speaker 1: out of that UM, no one would actually want to

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Speaker 1: pay the fee, and the union would go bankrupt. It's

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Speaker 1: a sort of collective action problem or a free rider problem.

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Speaker 1: If people don't pay that kind of fee UM, the

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Speaker 1: prospect is the union will be greatly weakend and of course,

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Speaker 1: let's be honest, that's the goal of this litigation. This

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Speaker 1: litigation is being sponsored and helped along by conservative and

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Speaker 1: right to work of the groups UM that that anticipate

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Speaker 1: that unions would be weakened not only in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: but in their ability to conduct political activities as well.

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Speaker 1: The lawsuity here was originally filed by Illinois Republican Governor

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Speaker 1: Bruce Rowner. So in March, the conservative wing of the

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Speaker 1: Court did not have a fifth vote because Justice Antonin

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Speaker 1: Scalia had passed away. Are they practically guaranteed that fifth

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Speaker 1: vote from justice schools, which I think most people would

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Speaker 1: expect that. I don't think there's anything in Justice Gores,

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Speaker 1: such as jurisprudence, that would make him anything other than

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Speaker 1: a reliable vote for the Court's conservatives on this point,

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Speaker 1: as Justice Scalia would have been was expected to be

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Speaker 1: in this case. Sometimes originalism, which is the philosophy Justice

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Speaker 1: Gore said, subscribes to le can lead you to different results.

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Speaker 1: But I think everyone assumes that Gore, such as Justice

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Speaker 1: Corsages vote is will be gotten here. The Roberts Court

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Speaker 1: is a very strong First Amendment court anyway. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: so in some sense of ruling against the union and

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Speaker 1: in favor of the worker would be consistent with that

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Speaker 1: in this case. And and and once again, I think

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Speaker 1: Justice Course would be expected to go along with that.

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Speaker 1: This is at bottom a First Amendment claim. The argument

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Speaker 1: is that the government employers in this case are violating

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Speaker 1: the First Amendment rights of union workers unionized workers, but

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Speaker 1: people who are non members of the union. To pay

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Speaker 1: this fee, Steve, Is there any way if if in

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Speaker 1: fact the court has that five to four vote and

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Speaker 1: UH overturns the ninety seven ruling, is there any way

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Speaker 1: for unions or states to write around the provision so

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Speaker 1: that it would eliminate any First Amendment implications. I think

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Speaker 1: it would be difficult, because again we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: government employers here, and what in the government in its

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Speaker 1: capacity as sovereign potentially affecting your free speech rights. Um. Again,

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Speaker 1: members of people who choose to be members of the

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Speaker 1: union obviously will continue to pay this, But if you're

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Speaker 1: going to stand outside, remain a non member of the

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Speaker 1: union still benefit from the unions negotiating and workplace activities.

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Speaker 1: But um, the point is here that the state, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, can't make you pay for

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Speaker 1: something support activity that you don't want to support. The

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Speaker 1: state of Illinois originally was on one side of the

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Speaker 1: suit when Bruce Rowner was governor, but it's it's actually

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General of Illinois, Lisa Madigan, will be defending

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Speaker 1: the state's law in this case alongside UM the unions

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Speaker 1: that are involved. Well, that's an interesting point, and UH,

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Speaker 1: certainly we see a lot of interesting and changing places,

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Speaker 1: almost like a musical chairs lately in these court cases.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Steve Sanders.

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Speaker 1: He's a professor at the University of Indiana Mawers School

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Speaker 1: of Law.