Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, Elon Musk is
Speaker 1: now the richest person on the planet.
Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and
Speaker 2: controlled by one man.
Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate, super genius, legitimate.
Speaker 2: He says.
Speaker 3: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will
Speaker 3: be different.
Speaker 2: He'll vote Republican.
Speaker 1: There is a reason the US government is so reliant
Speaker 1: on him.
Speaker 3: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing
Speaker 3: of him anything he does, he's fascinating people. We built
Speaker 3: the factory here in less time than it would have
Speaker 3: taken to get THEE permits in California.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Elon, Inc, Bloomberg's weekly show about all things
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, March twelfth. I'm Max Chafkin in
Speaker 1: for David Popadopolis. You just heard Elon Musk talking about
Speaker 1: his newly adopted state, Texas. This podcast is headed there.
Speaker 3: We're going to.
Speaker 1: Austin for the South by Southwest conference this week where
Speaker 1: we're doing a live show about all things Musk in Texas.
Speaker 1: So today we've got a really interesting shorter episode featuring
Speaker 1: Josh Green, who's Business Week's politics writer. And then on
Speaker 1: Thursday you can come right back to this feed and
Speaker 1: get the full length Texas sized episode from Austin. Last week,
Speaker 1: Elon took his jet to Florida, where he met with
Speaker 1: Donald Trump to talk about, among other things, money. The
Speaker 1: world's second richest man is of great interest to the
Speaker 1: Republican presidential contender, as Trump's fundraising has struggled in comparison
Speaker 1: to President Biden's and Elon of course has taken a
Speaker 1: very strong, almost obsessive, you might say, interest in US
Speaker 1: politics and seems very sympathetic to Trump's ideas and ideology
Speaker 1: and politics. And we've the perfect guest to talk about this,
Speaker 1: Josh Green, BusinessWeek's politics writer. He has a new book
Speaker 1: that you should check out.
Speaker 3: The Rebels.
Speaker 1: Josh also wrote pretty much the defining book about the
Speaker 1: rise of Donald Trump. It's called Devil's Bargain. Josh is
Speaker 1: here to talk about the complicated relationship between Elon Musk
Speaker 1: and Trump. Josh, thanks for coming on, Elon.
Speaker 2: Ink great to be with you.
Speaker 3: All Right, So what is.
Speaker 1: The status of the Elon Musk Donald Trump relationship?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they have a long and interesting relationship.
Speaker 2: I mean Trump and Trump's White House has always been
Speaker 2: fascinated by Elon. During the transition, right after Trump was
Speaker 2: first elected in twenty sixteen, Steve Bannon and Jared Kushner
Speaker 2: had him into Trump Tower and they wanted him to
Speaker 2: be a kind of an avatar of the new Trump
Speaker 2: administration because they were big into building things in America,
Speaker 2: and Elon was a big automaker who built cool things
Speaker 2: in the United States. And this was at a time
Speaker 2: where like every reputable business didn't want to get within
Speaker 2: one hundred yards of Donald Trump. So they brought in Elon,
Speaker 2: and at one point he was set to chair a
Speaker 2: new kind of committee of industrialists that Trump was putting together.
Speaker 2: I actually had a source and reached out that was
Speaker 2: going to leak this to us at Bloomberg News, and
Speaker 2: then Trump did something awful and Elon kind of backed away.
Speaker 2: I forget what exactly the controversy was. But back then
Speaker 2: Elon still cared about kind of maintaining a good reputation
Speaker 2: with kind of non right wing, non maga America. But
Speaker 2: over the last for eight years, he's obviously traveled on
Speaker 2: this pretty extraordinary political journey. Musk has and Trump has too.
Speaker 2: He's back, He's going to be the GOP nominee, and
Speaker 2: he now very badly needs one thing that Elon has
Speaker 2: a lot of, and that is money. You know, Trump
Speaker 2: has had an easy run through the Republican primaries, but
Speaker 2: he has a big problem. He only has about thirty
Speaker 2: million dollars. Four years ago at this time he had
Speaker 2: abo one hundred million dollars, and I think he views
Speaker 2: Elon as somebody who could easily fund his campaign, and
Speaker 2: so he's had him down twice. Now I think tomorrow
Speaker 2: lago to kind of sweet talk him and hopes that
Speaker 2: Elon will jump on board the Trump train.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course, I mean, unlike most people who
Speaker 1: are near the top of the Bloomberg billionaire's list, Elon
Speaker 1: Musk is not averse to these kind of far extreme
Speaker 1: right wing politics. There's obviously like a close ideological connection
Speaker 1: at this point. Just to go back to that, to
Speaker 1: the history you're talking about, so, as I remember, there
Speaker 1: were Tesla customers that were really mad about Donald Trump's
Speaker 1: border policy, and I think back then he might have
Speaker 1: been worried about what would the blowback be for customers,
Speaker 1: But of course, as you point out now that there's
Speaker 1: no risk of that for Elon Musk, right. He's on
Speaker 1: Twitter every day essentially tweeting things that are pretty close
Speaker 1: to white nationalism, lots of border panic, lots of concern
Speaker 1: about minority groups.
Speaker 3: It's very much.
Speaker 1: The same thing that Donald Trumps saying from the campaign trail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I think two
Speaker 2: things have happened to bring us to where we are now.
Speaker 2: One is that Trump has been normalized to a large degree.
Speaker 2: When he was elected in twenty sixteen, corporate America didn't
Speaker 2: want to have anything to do with him at all,
Speaker 2: and that was a real humiliation and embarrassment to Trump,
Speaker 2: who wants nothing more than to be seen as important
Speaker 2: and genuflected to, especially by kind of sexy business leaders
Speaker 2: like the tech industry. There's a famous meeting Elon was
Speaker 2: at it during the transition where Trump flew all these
Speaker 2: people and he was really hoping they would get on board,
Speaker 2: and they didn't. Now you see a lot more corporate
Speaker 2: business types and tech especially tech types, CosIng up to Trump.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, you have people like Elon
Speaker 2: who have been fully red pilled and now kind of
Speaker 2: spout a lot of the MAGA immigration great replacement conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2: So they're really kind of Peas in a pod at
Speaker 2: this point, that's something that Trump wants to take advantage of.
Speaker 1: So totally Peas and the pop politically, but maybe interpersonally,
Speaker 1: not exactly the best relationship. We have some tape of
Speaker 1: Donald Trump talking about his you know, potential new friend
Speaker 1: and campaign savior, Elon Musk.
Speaker 3: No, he's got himself a mess, you know. He said
Speaker 3: the other day. Oh, I've never voted for a Republican.
Speaker 3: I said, I didn't know that. He told me voted
Speaker 3: for me. So he's another post artist. But he's not
Speaker 3: going to be buying it.
Speaker 1: He's not going to be buying it, although he might later,
Speaker 1: who hell knows what's going to happen.
Speaker 3: He's got a pretty rotten contract. I looked at his contract,
Speaker 3: not a good contract. But he's got sign up for
Speaker 3: Truth and I mean separately.
Speaker 1: He went on Truth Social, which, of course as a
Speaker 1: competitor to Elon Musk's social network. Said when Elon Musk
Speaker 1: came to the White House asking me for help on
Speaker 1: his many subsidized projects, whether it's electric cars that don't
Speaker 1: drive long enough, for driverless cars that crash, or rocket ship,
Speaker 1: said nowhere I could have said, drop to your knees
Speaker 1: and bag and he would have done it.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, really some harsh stuff here.
Speaker 1: Elon, meanwhile, has also said some not so nice things
Speaker 1: to Trump, although probably not quite as sharps is that
Speaker 1: he said, I don't hate the man, but it's time
Speaker 1: for Trump to hang up his hat and sail off
Speaker 1: into the sunset.
Speaker 3: He also told Walter Isaacson that.
Speaker 1: That Trump was one of the best bullshters ever, which
Speaker 1: I think coming from Musk, maybe both an insult and
Speaker 1: a compliment, but needless to say, they don't get along
Speaker 1: super well, no they don't.
Speaker 2: And also look, I mean the thing that was noticed
Speaker 2: by Trump was that Elon basically went out and supported
Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis, his arch enemy in the primaries, and then
Speaker 2: when DeSantis crashed and burned, flirted with Vivic Ramaswami. So
Speaker 2: not a lot of love lost here. I think the
Speaker 2: problem for both of them is that they both have
Speaker 2: this burning need to be the center of attention, and
Speaker 2: so it's almost like when you put two opposite magnets
Speaker 2: against each other, like there's just this kind of natural pushback.
Speaker 2: As Steve Bannon once told me, Donald Trump doesn't want
Speaker 2: any co stars and I think the danger of bringing
Speaker 2: Elon Musk in too closely is that, look, he's a
Speaker 2: guy that generates a lot of attention, has a huge
Speaker 2: social media file, and has the constant attention of the
Speaker 2: news media. The problem for Trump, though, is he needs money.
Speaker 2: He needs a sugar daddy, and he is looking at
Speaker 2: Elon Musk to be that sugar daddy. There's a lot
Speaker 2: that has gone wrong in Trump's world over the last
Speaker 2: year or so. I mean, Number one, he has enormous
Speaker 2: legal problems and that's really really expensive. And what's happened
Speaker 2: is he's gotten the Republican National Committee in a super
Speaker 2: pack basically to pay his legal bills. So donors don't
Speaker 2: want to give money to Trump because they know it's
Speaker 2: not going to elect Republicans, it's going to pay Trump's
Speaker 2: legal bills. The donors wound up spending fifty million dollars
Speaker 2: on Trump's legal bills last year. I just checked the numbers.
Speaker 2: For January, they spent another five million. At the same time,
Speaker 2: Trump has driven off the Republican Party's best fundraiser, former
Speaker 2: House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who's now gone. He also just
Speaker 2: got rid of the head of the Republican National Committee,
Speaker 2: Ronald McDaniel. And so there's like a real big problem
Speaker 2: that Elon could if he wanted to solve for Republicans
Speaker 2: by giving him a big chunk of money. And I
Speaker 2: think if he were willing to do that, Trump would
Speaker 2: overlook the slights, the support for destatus and so on.
Speaker 2: But Trump is Trump, and he can't bring himself to
Speaker 2: beg maybe not even to ask Elon.
Speaker 1: Also, after the New York Times reported and then I
Speaker 1: think Bloomberg and some other outlets have also reported on
Speaker 1: this this meeting, Elon tweeted that he's not going to
Speaker 1: donate to either candidate. So, in other words, essentially it
Speaker 1: seemed trying to deny these reports or to play them
Speaker 1: down at the least.
Speaker 3: Should we look at that as the last word?
Speaker 1: I mean, there are other avenues that he could.
Speaker 2: Donate, Yeah, exactly. No, that's not really the issue here.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're limited by law to donating I think
Speaker 2: it's three three hundred dollars to candidates. That's not really
Speaker 2: what Trump is looking for. What he's looking for is
Speaker 2: for Elon to give fifty million or one hundred million,
Speaker 2: or why not a billion dollars to his superpack to
Speaker 2: one of these places where there is no limits, that
Speaker 2: can then go pay off his lawyers help him with
Speaker 2: all his legal problems. Judge in New York Is just
Speaker 2: forced them to put up three or four hundred million
Speaker 2: dollars in bonds. And also, Republicans need to hold on
Speaker 2: to Congress if they win the White House and want
Speaker 2: to get anything done. So the RNC needs money, the
Speaker 2: Senate needs money, the House needs money. All of these
Speaker 2: Republicans running need money. Traditionally, the great fundraiser for a
Speaker 2: party is its presidential candidate. But Trump just doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be able to do that because nobody nobody trusted
Speaker 2: with money anymore. They don't trust that he's not going
Speaker 2: to turn around and hand it to his lawyers.
Speaker 1: So are there already, like people within the sort of
Speaker 1: magaverse trying to figure out which super pack he might
Speaker 1: donate to, or like, are Republican operatives already salvating I
Speaker 1: mean you start saying like tens of millions or hundreds
Speaker 1: of millions or even a billion dollars, I mean that
Speaker 1: could be a huge windfall for lots of people, right
Speaker 1: it could.
Speaker 2: I mean there are a couple of you know, sort
Speaker 2: of Trump endorsed super packs. They're supposed to be separate.
Speaker 2: But the way it works in politics is you kind
Speaker 2: of like wink wink and say, boy, I'm really impressed
Speaker 2: with the Save America pack, and then everybody knows, okay,
Speaker 2: that's the pack that has Trump's blessing, like we're going
Speaker 2: to give money there. The problem is a Save America
Speaker 2: pack sluiced fifty million dollars in its donations to pay
Speaker 2: Trump's legal bills last year. So really all it is
Speaker 2: is like a slush fund for Trump's lawyers. And look,
Speaker 2: that's obviously that's just a hard sell for MAGA donors.
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to think that they're basically just paying Trump's lawyers,
Speaker 2: even like kind of hardcore MAGA fans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we you talked about some of the sort
Speaker 1: of similarities between Musk and Trump, Right, they both like
Speaker 1: being center retention, they're both very provocative. They're also both
Speaker 1: cheap and Trump, of course sort of historically, you know,
Speaker 1: doesn't like to pay his bills, right Elon Musk kind
Speaker 1: of similar you know, his one of his big things
Speaker 1: at Tesla and SpaceX is essentially trying to squeeze suppliers
Speaker 1: at you know, talking to somebody who who wants to
Speaker 1: sell them a rocket part for one hundred dollars in
Speaker 1: saying hey, how about I pay twenty five? So my
Speaker 1: question is what would Elon get out of this, Like,
Speaker 1: what is the argument that Trump could make or what
Speaker 1: is the threat he could make?
Speaker 2: I guess well, look, I think the argument Trump could
Speaker 2: make is, hey, I follow your tweets and you are
Speaker 2: obviously like you've gone full maga. We have to keep
Speaker 2: Joe Biden and the evil liberals out of the White House.
Speaker 2: Come support my candidacy and things will be great for you.
Speaker 2: The other threat he could make is to say, hey, Elon,
Speaker 2: look at the polls. I'm going to be the next president,
Speaker 2: and if you don't give me money, I'm going to
Speaker 2: cancel all your government contracts and make life hell for you.
Speaker 2: But I think there's a more creative answer to that question. Max. Look,
Speaker 2: Elon Musk has a dying property in Twitter or ex
Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it these days, like
Speaker 2: nobody's on there. Remember when Elon took over, he reinstated
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's account, and Trump hasn't used that. So, if
Speaker 2: you're Elon and you need engagement and you need people
Speaker 2: getting on there. Maybe he goes to mar A Lago
Speaker 2: and says, the price of my financial support is you
Speaker 2: Donald Trump getting back on Twitter and tweeting like a
Speaker 2: madman the way you did back in twenty sixteen. That
Speaker 2: will drive all kinds of eyeballs and attention to Twitter.
Speaker 2: It will get Elon Musk more the attention that he wants,
Speaker 2: and it will also be beneficial to Donald Trump because
Speaker 2: not only will he have some money in his war
Speaker 2: chest to pay off the lawyers, but it'll also have,
Speaker 2: you know, be back to having all the attention he
Speaker 2: did from cable news, from the media back in the
Speaker 2: sort of golden era of twenty sixteen when he first
Speaker 2: took over Twitter by storm.
Speaker 3: I love this sery.
Speaker 1: I've thought about Trump runs this competing platform. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure the market is big enough for two trolling right
Speaker 1: wing social networks. You know, Elon Musk is eventually going
Speaker 1: to need to take Twitter public to give his investors
Speaker 1: some sort of exit truth social has this spack? Why
Speaker 1: why stop at just having Donald Trump tweet?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Look, these are two distressed assets in Donald Trump
Speaker 2: and Elon Musk, and maybe what they need to do
Speaker 2: is perform a merger that each can convince will be
Speaker 2: good for themselves and we will probably turn out to
Speaker 2: be a disaster for America, but certainly something to talk about.
Speaker 2: And and I know Trump wants it to happen, so
Speaker 2: I think the balls and Elon's court and will have
Speaker 2: to wait.
Speaker 3: To So okay, so let's we'll start to wrap up.
Speaker 1: But just just looking ahead, I'm kind of curious, So
Speaker 1: how big a deal politically would an Elon Musk endorsement
Speaker 1: or a big.
Speaker 3: Check like like will he have?
Speaker 1: Does he become an important surrogate or somebody who Trump
Speaker 1: you know will okay, yeah, no.
Speaker 2: No, not all.
Speaker 3: Anybody.
Speaker 2: Anybody who is an Elon Musk fanboy, if they even vote,
Speaker 2: is by definition I think a maga voter. Maybe on
Speaker 2: the margins. If Elon launched a register to vote campaign,
Speaker 2: maybe you could move the numbers on the margins. But
Speaker 2: Elon Musk is not going to persuade independence and soft
Speaker 2: Democrats to vote for Donald Trump. I think his only
Speaker 2: real contribution, at least the Trump world views it this way,
Speaker 2: is money, and the fact that he has a lot
Speaker 2: of it makes him a tantalizing target. And I think
Speaker 2: that's why he keeps getting invited back tomorrow longer.
Speaker 1: Okay, great, well let's leave it there again.
Speaker 3: We're gonna keep following this.
Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll have Josh back on to discuss, you know,
Speaker 1: any any possible Elon Musk Donald Trump deals, and also
Speaker 1: just to talk about the state of the race because
Speaker 1: of course X is gonna play a role here. Elon
Speaker 1: could potentially play a role and I think there's there's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot to pay attention to, So Josh,
Speaker 1: thank you very.
Speaker 2: Much, Gonna be with it.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Naomi Shaven and
Speaker 1: Rayhan Harmasi are senior editors.
Speaker 3: The idea for this.
Speaker 1: Very show also came from Rayhn Blake Maple's Handles Engineering,
Speaker 1: and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. Our
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson and thanks a bunch to
Speaker 1: Joel Weber. The Elon ing theme is written and performed
Speaker 1: by Taku Yasuzawa and Alex Sagierra. Our executive producer is
Speaker 1: Brendan Francis Newman. Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm Max Chafkin. If you have a minute right view
Speaker 1: our show. We'll let other listeners find us.
Speaker 3: And we will appreciate it. See you on Thursday.