1
00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Happy Saturday. Good morning. I hope you've had

2
00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 1: your breakfast cereal, and I hope you have had your cartoons.

3
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,240
Speaker 1: And I hope you are ready to learn about free

4
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: speech here. That being thrown around a lot these days,

5
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 1: free speech, free speech, But free speech actually means something specific.

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: It's not just you can say anything you want, any

7
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 1: time you want and without any repercussions at all. That's

8
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 1: not free speech. We're here to tell you what it

9
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: really is. In the episode from February How Free Speech Works.

10
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,239
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I

11
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

12
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 1: There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry. Papers have been shuffled.

13
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: Their plumb and true. It's time for Stuff you should

14
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 1: Know the podcast. You know it's not plumb and true.

15
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 1: My gut. Anything in my house I went to, Uh,

16
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 1: all of my house had those gross, cheap, hollow core

17
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: doors you know. Oh yeah, you know they're not doors.

18
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,840
Speaker 1: I mean they function as doors, but if there's air

19
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,759
Speaker 1: in your door, then there's not a door. So one

20
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: by one I've been replacing them with wood, solid doors.

21
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,679
Speaker 1: And I went and did that for our bedroom. And man,

22
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 1: oh man, was it frustrating. Oh hanging them because they

23
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,040
Speaker 1: didn't want to hang. It's the worst, like nothing straight, like, oh,

24
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: that looks good, and then it goes to shut and

25
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 1: it's like whack. Well I'm sure it was straight, you know,

26
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, you know, and then over time

27
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 1: the house settled in and now it's it's doing its

28
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,600
Speaker 1: own thing. So I had to shave the door in

29
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: so many places it looks like a Doctor SEUs store.

30
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 1: Oh cool, you should plant one of those weird doctor

31
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 1: Seue's palm trees in your yard to really complete it.

32
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,240
Speaker 1: It's called marijuana. So I'm glad you just said marijuana, chuck,

33
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 1: because you have every right to say the word marijuana

34
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 1: in this country. It's a free country. You can say

35
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: the name of a plant, you know, people people do

36
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,799
Speaker 1: say and have long said. This is a free country.

37
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 1: I can say whatever I want. And free speech is

38
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 1: one of the basic hallmarks of what makes America free country.

39
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 1: Freedom of speech. Um, but America is not the only

40
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 1: country that enshrines a freedom of speech protection in its charter. Yeah,

41
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 1: there are varying degrees of it in many many countries.

42
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,359
Speaker 1: In some countries there's not very much. In other countries

43
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 1: there's a lot. In the US is arguably one of

44
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,079
Speaker 1: the leaders, although some people point to Europe's and we'll

45
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 1: talk about those later, but some people point to Europe's

46
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,080
Speaker 1: free speech protections and saying they're those people know what

47
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: they're doing. Um. In the US, if you look at

48
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: free speech, you go to the Bill of Rights. Typically

49
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 1: it's a great place to start, and you will find

50
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 1: you will find in the First Amendment of the Constitution,

51
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: which is the first part of the Bill of Rights,

52
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: it says in there specifically that Congress will make no

53
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,519
Speaker 1: law right abridging the freedom of speech. It's as simple

54
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 1: as that. It doesn't say unless speech says this, unless

55
00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,360
Speaker 1: somebody says that, unless you really don't like the guy,

56
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: there is no It's absolute. It's an absolute protection of

57
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 1: freedom of speech. Yeah, and that goes on. I think, uh,

58
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: it's pertinent to mention abridging the freedom of speech or

59
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: of the press, or the right of the people to

60
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 1: peaceably to assemble founding Father JFK and to petition the

61
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,960
Speaker 1: government for a redress of grievances. I'm sorry that I'm

62
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,520
Speaker 1: take Kennedy one because we're all very important, you know,

63
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 1: sure they are. Oh yeah, the press right to a symbol,

64
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 1: it's a pretty important one. Well yeah, And because we

65
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 1: had just left the country uh one, independence from Britain,

66
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: who at the time was like, no, no, no, we

67
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 1: we very much want to squash any dissenting opinions about

68
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 1: the grown uh And people were getting thrown in jail

69
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 1: for that kind of stuff in the colonies. They were

70
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 1: trying to quash a rebellion. And that's a pretty important

71
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,040
Speaker 1: part of it. If you're if you're a monarchy, an

72
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,840
Speaker 1: absolute monarchy that wants to keep the rebels in check,

73
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 1: you just say you can't say certain things, and if

74
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,760
Speaker 1: you do, we're going to throw you in jail. It

75
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 1: has a freezing effect, yeah, Or they're weird punishments, like

76
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 1: when they said stick a sock in it, they went yeah, okay,

77
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 1: and they went no, really, stick a sock in it

78
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 1: by law for eight months, governor, and tape it, tape

79
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 1: it shut. With my dirty sock in your mouth, my

80
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,400
Speaker 1: dirty century sock, my wool sock from my wet boots.

81
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,920
Speaker 1: Um quickly though, I think we should point out that

82
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: as we were going through this, like I realized you

83
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,839
Speaker 1: could have an entire podcast called the Ins and Outs

84
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,280
Speaker 1: of Free Speech. Yeah, like a series, a whole show.

85
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 1: You could have a whole show about it, not just

86
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,160
Speaker 1: an episode. So this is you know, this is an

87
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 1: overview as we do that is going to pick and

88
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,159
Speaker 1: you know, talk about various court cases over the years,

89
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 1: rulings and writings of judges, um, that are pertinent. But man,

90
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 1: it's deep and wide. Yeah, it is, especially considering that

91
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 1: again when you go to the Bill of Rights, it

92
00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,200
Speaker 1: just says Congress can't pass any laws that abridge the

93
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 1: freedom of speech. There they're like, why does he keep

94
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:52,600
Speaker 1: writing right there? And chuck. Not only though, was it

95
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: this in retaliation reaction to um, the British monarchy. Yeah,

96
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: it was also a big part of Enlightenment thinking as well.

97
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 1: The protection of freedom of speech was a huge aspect

98
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 1: of the Enlightenment. And you know, obviously the United States

99
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: was founded during the Enlightenment and as part of the Enlightenment.

100
00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 1: It was an Enlightenment experiment, right, Yeah, like we don't

101
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 1: want to restrict thought or expression, um. And you know,

102
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: some might say that if if the Britain hadn't been

103
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 1: so intent on squashing dissenting opinion, then we might not

104
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 1: have been so enlightenment aside. So uh, heck bent on

105
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 1: ensuring those rights. So maybe it all worked out for

106
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,040
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, I think so. And Britain came around. Right.

107
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,599
Speaker 1: You can still get that sock thrown in your mouth,

108
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 1: can you? I don't know, man, it's on the book still.

109
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 1: I just don't know if they do it anymore. Is

110
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,360
Speaker 1: the socks are much nicer now, that's right. They're all

111
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,680
Speaker 1: happy socks. So since you have this very broad um

112
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 1: protection of freedom of speech, right, yeah, then there's nothing

113
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 1: more to be said about it. Anybody can say anything

114
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,480
Speaker 1: they want. Not true, quite true. It isn't true because

115
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 1: we have three branches of government here in the US.

116
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: We do. Yeah, it turns out I thought that was

117
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 1: just one. You got the executive branch, which is the

118
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 1: one I think you're thinking. Uh. Then you have the

119
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 1: legislative branch Congress, okay, which is actually separate, and then

120
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: you have the third branch, the judicial branch. Yes, they

121
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: are equal and important branch. And with um the congressional

122
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 1: legislative branch. They pass laws, people go out and break laws,

123
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 1: people get convicted, people appeal their convictions, and in some cases,

124
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 1: those convictions and the laws are questionable enough or interesting

125
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: enough that it will eventually make it to a high

126
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: enough court that the court will rule on whether or

127
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: not that law holds to any constitutional standard. Yeah. Over time,

128
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 1: freedom of speech has been shaped and expanded and paired away,

129
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 1: um by the courts here in the United States. Yeah,

130
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 1: Like maybe more so than any other kind of segment

131
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: of law, or maybe not. But I'm gonna just as

132
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:25,560
Speaker 1: as an complete, um armchair attorney, I'm gonna say that

133
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 1: perhaps free speeches has been challenge more and whittled down

134
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 1: and defined more than maybe any other aspect of law. Yeah,

135
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,920
Speaker 1: because one of the big things that the courts did

136
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 1: with freedom of speech was to really expand the definition

137
00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 1: of speech. Yeah, it's not just words that come out

138
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 1: of your mouth or even right. No, Like it can

139
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 1: be a T shirt that says f the police, or

140
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,959
Speaker 1: could say um um uh yeah, hug the police. Sure

141
00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: somebody might find that offensive. Who knows, thank you for

142
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 1: coming to my rescue. It could be a billboard, it

143
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 1: could be um, it could be a pamphlet you hand out.

144
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 1: It could be an act, symbolic act, flag burning. That

145
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: was a big one to remember that in the eighties

146
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 1: absolutely or or refusing to say the pledge allegiance that

147
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 1: was in the I think World War two, Yeah, which

148
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 1: is actually now protected as because free speech can also

149
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,520
Speaker 1: mean the freedom to not speech. Yeah, because up until

150
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,960
Speaker 1: I think in the Supreme Court ruled on it, kids

151
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,319
Speaker 1: were being forced to say the pledge whether they wanted

152
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 1: to or not. In the Supreme quisite. Now we think

153
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,960
Speaker 1: freedom of speech is really freedom of expression, and if

154
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 1: you don't feel like saying the pledge, you're free to

155
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,800
Speaker 1: express yourself in that way. Yeah. And as you'll find,

156
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 1: um throughout the show, we'll kind of probably say this

157
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: over and over, freedom of speech doesn't have a lot

158
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 1: to do with something you might find offensive or repugnant. Um. Generally,

159
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: the U S decided on protecting that right regardless of

160
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: whether or not you're offended or you think it's awful.

161
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what makes America great in a

162
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,199
Speaker 1: lot of ways, is you know, what, who are we

163
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,200
Speaker 1: to decide what you know, to legislate morality essentially, and

164
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,320
Speaker 1: what we'll get into all this with obscenity and all

165
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,680
Speaker 1: that stuff and pornography. But um, even when it comes

166
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: to like you know, I don't want to say the pledge.

167
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 1: Because of this reason, the courts have said, you know what,

168
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,679
Speaker 1: that that you're right, this is America. We may not

169
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 1: like it, but that you're right. Yeah. And the whole

170
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 1: reason behind this too, it's it's easy to just take

171
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,040
Speaker 1: it for granted, especially if you were raised in the

172
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: United States, that you have that right. Who cares what

173
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 1: the basis of it is. You can say basically whatever

174
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 1: you want, you know um. But when you really dig

175
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: into why the founders sought to protect this and why

176
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 1: it's been upheld and defended so much over the years,

177
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: is because the idea is that if you are free

178
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 1: to speak your mind without fear of being put in

179
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 1: jail or killed or beaten by a mob um, that

180
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,479
Speaker 1: you are going to introduce new ideas to the marketplace

181
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 1: of ideas. And through this you're gonna have an exchange

182
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 1: with other people, and a lot of times it's going

183
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 1: to be contentious and it's going to be ugly, but

184
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 1: over time things can evolve and get better and change

185
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,600
Speaker 1: for the better through this exchange of ideas. And to

186
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 1: ensure that the engine of cultural evolution continues unabated, you

187
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: have to have the free exchange of ideas. And to

188
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,360
Speaker 1: have the free exchange of ideas, you have to have

189
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 1: protection of free speech. Yeah, because if not, you have

190
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 1: the government being the one saying, well, now here are

191
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 1: all the ideas, right exactly, and um, don't worry about

192
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,200
Speaker 1: having any of your own. Yeah, these are these, these

193
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,199
Speaker 1: are the ones. Yeah. And in a lot of cases,

194
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 1: those things can come across as really great ideas. Um.

195
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 1: Here in the US, up until the UH, I think

196
00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: the mid fifties or early sixties, there were laws on

197
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,440
Speaker 1: the books where it said you can't you can't speak

198
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 1: ill of groups, like you can't say anything about um,

199
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 1: Jewish people or Muslim people or any group. You can't

200
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 1: say these things. It was not protected, right. It was

201
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,440
Speaker 1: called group libel. And that actually sounds pretty good in

202
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 1: a lot of in a lot of senses, like, yeah,

203
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be talking trash about entire groups of people,

204
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,320
Speaker 1: because it does it can lead to two problems. But

205
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,680
Speaker 1: that same prohibition on speech came to be exploited by

206
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: white Southerners who were in power in the fifties, who said,

207
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, he's trying to incite violent social change

208
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: with his his radical ideas. Somebody needs to uh put

209
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,040
Speaker 1: a duct tape over that guy's mouth. He doesn't have

210
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 1: the freedom to say this. And actually, our right to

211
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: say hateful things about other people was a direct result

212
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 1: in the United States of the civil rights movement UM

213
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: being protected by the courts against white Southerners who sought

214
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:16,079
Speaker 1: to um to uh squash their their speech. So I

215
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 1: hate speech, Yeah, is due in part in part to

216
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,079
Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King and and trying to advance civil

217
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,719
Speaker 1: rights in a weird turn of events, Yeah, it really was. Uh.

218
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,199
Speaker 1: And in Europe, and we'll talk about this a little more. UM,

219
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: Like you said, some people say they have nailed it.

220
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,000
Speaker 1: They don't protect hate speech, and you can't be uh,

221
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 1: you can't deny the Holocaust publicly, and you can't um say,

222
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 1: you know Jewish people, you know x y Z or

223
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,839
Speaker 1: this group of people are like this. Um. Some people

224
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,679
Speaker 1: say that's you know, that's kind of right on the money.

225
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: We have taken a different tech here in the US.

226
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,200
Speaker 1: Right in Europe does that because they have a pretty

227
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,280
Speaker 1: recent example of what can happen if you do have

228
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 1: freedom of speech, and that totalitarian government can hijack that

229
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,079
Speaker 1: freedom of speech and use it as propaganda to incite

230
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,920
Speaker 1: hatred amongst an entire population. Um or even as as

231
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,440
Speaker 1: um this this one author put it to prepare them

232
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 1: for extermination, just basically saying like, hey, everybody, get those guys.

233
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,840
Speaker 1: They're the reasons you don't have jobs. They're the rapists.

234
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 1: They're the people who are who are going to kill

235
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 1: you and steal your your family's wealth and well being.

236
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 1: So get rid of them. Turn on them. And that's

237
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: the whole point of saying, nobody can incite hatred through

238
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:46,000
Speaker 1: speech in these European democracies. Um, because the state has

239
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: done it before. Yeah, and we all see what happened there. Um.

240
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 1: Should we take a break? I feel like that's a

241
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 1: good intro, broad, all encompassing, passionate, all encompassingly. All right,

242
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: Well we'll come back here in a minute and get

243
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: down to the nitty gritty of some of these court cases. Okay, sorry, gee,

244
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: um large skid all right, trend um, So if you

245
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,360
Speaker 1: want to go back a little bit to justice Oliver

246
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: Wendell Holmes Jr. Son of Sherlock, one of the famous

247
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 1: justice is the United States. Uh, in a lot of ways,

248
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: but very specifically because everyone has sort of heard the

249
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: the old thing that, Um, you can't yell fire in

250
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,560
Speaker 1: a movie theater and say that's free speech because that

251
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,280
Speaker 1: will In the case of in the nineteen nineteen case

252
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,160
Speaker 1: Shink the United States, UM, Charles Schenk was arrested for

253
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 1: distributing material basically that said, hey, UM, don't the the

254
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 1: US draft military draft is bs um, don't do it.

255
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 1: Fight against it? Uh. And they said, you know what,

256
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 1: that's that's espionage actually, And that went all the way

257
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 1: to Supreme Court and they did not protect that right because,

258
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: in the words of Oliver Winto Holmes, they said, did

259
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 1: the words create a clear and present danger that they

260
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 1: will bring about substantive evils? Congress has a right to

261
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 1: prevent and that sort of in line. And later on

262
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 1: in that same ruling, he was talking about yelling fire

263
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 1: in a theater as an example, like, you know, you

264
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: can't do that because I will insight panic if people

265
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 1: will get stomped. Right, And in this case this kind

266
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: of set the precedent for or the tone for all

267
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 1: free speech cases to follow. UM. It's weighing the the

268
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 1: individual right versus the public good, yes, or in this case,

269
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 1: the individual right, says UM, creating some problem or evil

270
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 1: as he put it, that Congress has a right and

271
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 1: an interest to prevent a danger to the country, right. UM.

272
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,119
Speaker 1: In this case, really what they were saying was they

273
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: were suppressing criticism of a government program, the Draft. UM.

274
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 1: And then but Holmes was fine with that. But within

275
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,159
Speaker 1: a year I think he saw his UM, his test,

276
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, does it present a clear and present danger

277
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,479
Speaker 1: being used in a way to to squash descent when

278
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 1: a bunch of anarchists who were just generally advocating the

279
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 1: overthrow of the government. UM, rather than need to do

280
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: this on this date at this time, UM, they were used,

281
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 1: they were convicted under the test that Holmes created. So

282
00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 1: he took what was called the Great Dissent and actually

283
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 1: dissented against his own former test and said, no, it

284
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 1: has to present a clear and present danger, present meaning

285
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: like it's about to happen or you know, the time

286
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,439
Speaker 1: that it's going to happen, and it's a clear danger,

287
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,760
Speaker 1: like this is what's going to happen. Because this person

288
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 1: said that, so that that ultimately became the format for

289
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: UM what we'll talk about in a little bit, which

290
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 1: is inciting violence. Yeah, and that's not to say that UM,

291
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,680
Speaker 1: like The ruling there, like you said, was about a

292
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,920
Speaker 1: clear and present danger, not necessarily the fact that Charles

293
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,400
Speaker 1: Schenk was against the war, because we have a long

294
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 1: history in this country of being able to uh be

295
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 1: a wartime dissenter and talk about it and be protected. Um.

296
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: During Vietnam War, there was a man who had he

297
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 1: went through an l A courthouse and he had a

298
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: jacket that said, you know, F the draft, but it

299
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: was really spelled out. It's so ironic that we're censoring

300
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 1: ourselves in this one, but it's uh F the draft

301
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 1: and they um as you will always almost always see here.

302
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: These people are, like you said, usually arrested, convicted, and

303
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 1: then when they're well maybe hippies, you never know, and

304
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: then that's when the courts take it up and potentially

305
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 1: either a protect or don't protect the speech. In this case,

306
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 1: the court said no, you're within your right because someone

307
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,239
Speaker 1: could see your jacket and then not look at it, right,

308
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: And that's a good point. Like you you can just

309
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 1: look away from the guy's jacket, right. You can also

310
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: not take the pamphlet that the guys handing you. You

311
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 1: can also you can also not rent the movie that

312
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 1: um that you find offensive. You can also turn the

313
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: TV station. You can also turn the radio down. You

314
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 1: can also not go to the website. You can turn

315
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: our podcast off. To me, well you shouldn't, so you could.

316
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: To me, the alternative of not not receiving some speech

317
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: that you find offensive like being able to get away

318
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: from it. That to me is the ultimate test for

319
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 1: for whether speech should be restricted or not. And since

320
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 1: you can in virtually any situation get away from speech

321
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: each except maybe skywriting, we should probably really regulate sky

322
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 1: riding pretty pretty toughly. Now you can look down on

323
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: the ground, but I guess you could. Yeah, So as

324
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 1: long as you can get away from it, or, more

325
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 1: to the point sheared, shield your children from it, I

326
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: don't think it should be I don't see any reason

327
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: for it to be um entailed. For skywriting. You would

328
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: have to argue in court that it is such a

329
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: delight to children that they can't help. But look like

330
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: you would have to physically restrain them and put blinders

331
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: on them, exactly, and that's unreasonable, your honor right. You

332
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: could write a curse word and then do a drawing

333
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: of Barney and that would satisfy that is Barney still

334
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,919
Speaker 1: a thing. I think Barney will always be a thing.

335
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh So over the years have been,

336
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 1: like we said, a lot of court cases that have

337
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: kind of whittled away and defined not whittled away, you know,

338
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: because that molded shaped, molded and shaped. Uh So Marvin

339
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: Old Marv ran an adult book business, and he what

340
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: he did was he sent out mailers. He liked to

341
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: send out a mailer, right, and um, these mailers would

342
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: show up at houses where, you know, something my kid

343
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: might read it, or someone easily offended might read it,

344
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: or not so easily offended might read it. Uh. And

345
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: there was a mom who uh this was her adult son. Yeah,

346
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: it was a mom and her grown son who's the

347
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 1: manager of I guess the family restaurant. And they childlike

348
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: maybe he was his eyes were burning. Um, I don't know,

349
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: maybe his mom was just just treated him like a kid.

350
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: Who knows. But they said, you know what, you know,

351
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: this guy shouldn't be mailing these randomly to just whoever.

352
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: We certainly don't want it, so we're gonna call and complaint.

353
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: And Marvin Miller ended up getting arrested for um obscenity.

354
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: And this is a huge this turned out to be

355
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: a huge case. Yeah, and went all the way to

356
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and um, yeah, it was. It was

357
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: what you call a um, what do you call that? Landmark? Well,

358
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: Landmark's waters watershed. I couldn't think of it. I was like,

359
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: we did a podcast on it recently. It's an Intego

360
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: Girls song. That's right. It was a watershed case. Miller v. California.

361
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say V instead of versus. I think

362
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: we've talked about that before, right, Um, it makes you

363
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: sound more legal easy, Yeah, and everyone likes being legal easy. Uh.

364
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: In three, like I said, the Supreme Court heard the

365
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: case and they found that his speech did not qualify

366
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: for for protection. Um. But here's the hitch. They didn't

367
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: rule on the obscenity. They ruled that, hey, we're protecting kids,

368
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: and you can't just mail this stuff to a house

369
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: because kids live in houses, and so it was inappropriate

370
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: content for children. Um. And what it did as well

371
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 1: is it is it specified a test for defining obscenity, which, boy,

372
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 1: over the years, this has been a really tough thing

373
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: and it seems like over the years of courts round

374
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: me don't want any part of that. Now. If There's

375
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: one thing too that as far as restricting free speech goes,

376
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: that drives me up the wall. It's obscenity. The Court

377
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: should not have anything to do with obscenity, and mostly

378
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: they don't wantling on it. Right, There's this great quote

379
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: from Hugo Black, who, as of this podcast has become

380
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: my favorite Supreme Court justice of all time. He said

381
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: in Michigan versus State of New York, Um, I wish

382
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: once more to express my this is my Hugo Black,

383
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: by the way, I wish once more to express my

384
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: objections to saddling this court with the irksome and an

385
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: inevitably unpopular and unwholesome task of finally deciding by a

386
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: case by case, site by site personal judgment of the

387
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: members of this court what pornography, whatever that means is

388
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: too hardcore for people to see or read. Basically, they

389
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: were tired of sitting in court and looking at like

390
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: pictures of a B. C. At the least, and ruling

391
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: on this stuff like what about this one? What about

392
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: this one? What about? The thing is they were looking

393
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: at like pulp pulp books Like Michigan was a guy

394
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: who had a publishing house of pulp books that showed

395
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: like B D S M or lesbianism or masturbation or

396
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: whatever on the cover. He's like, this is this is

397
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: actually pretty nice, right, They're like minutes a perk of

398
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: the job. But we shouldn't have to do it anyway.

399
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: And so the idea that that um, the court is

400
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: ruling what is obscene is and what is not is

401
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: it's legislating morality, clear and just clearly it's legislating morality.

402
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: And I don't think the court has any any right

403
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: to that at all, but they have. They have a

404
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: long tradition of it, and over time they've actually come

405
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: to protect pornography, um, with the exception of child pornography,

406
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: which you're not really gonna You're gonna be hard pressed

407
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: to find anybody who argues for freedom of speech as

408
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: far as child pornography goes UM. And then obscenity, which

409
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: is which came out of this through the three pronged

410
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: tests to determine what's obscene, came out of that Miller

411
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: the California case, and it says this, It says that

412
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: if the average person using contemporary community standards can look

413
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: at something and says that this arouses the prurient interest?

414
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: Does it meaning sexy time? Yeah? Uh, that's that's the

415
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 1: wronged one. And you have to satisfy all three of them.

416
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: Is this patently offensive sexual content or patently either one?

417
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: I say patently And I got that from Mr Burns.

418
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: Oh well, I say, I say patently like Mr Burns does. Yeah.

419
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: And then the final one is a big one. Uh,

420
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: it's whether the work, taken as a whole, lack serious literary, artistic,

421
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: or potentially or political or scientific value. Right. That's that's subjective,

422
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: extremely subjective, like who who it literally says if it's

423
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: our stick? Right? Who? Who says? What's art and what's not? Yeah?

424
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: And very famously, uh, Justice Potter Stewart the very very

425
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: famous line when asking about obscenity or pornography said I

426
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: know what when I see it? Right? But they they

427
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: have long said like we we One of them said,

428
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: we may be trying to define the indefinable. Yeah, it

429
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: is indefinable. You ask a hundred people what pornography is

430
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: and you'll get a hundred different answers. And so as

431
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: a result, some courts have said, uh, yeah, this community

432
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: the jurors decided that this is obscene, So people go

433
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: to jail for depicting sexual acts or something like that

434
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: that some jurors in that town found um distasteful because

435
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: America has has long had a very puritanical hang up

436
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: with sex and nudity. Uh, violence, bring it on, but

437
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: nude bodies shame, shame. I think that's probably my issue

438
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: with it too, is we're super like will expose kids

439
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: to violence, extreme violence at a very young age. But sexuality, Hey,

440
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: you wait until you're you wait until your parents are dead.

441
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: You understand. Wonders for the therapy industry though it's true,

442
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: So hold on checked. There's one other thing. The other

443
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: part that the other problem I have with the um

444
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: defining obscenity is that there's no national standard. The courts

445
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: even said it would be impossible to come up with

446
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: a national standard. So if Miller had been tried in

447
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: a community of swingers who are like into that stuff, um,

448
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: he probably would have gotten off right. But because he

449
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: was tried in a community that decided that no, this

450
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: is this is obscene, it was deemed obscene, whereas in

451
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: another community it may not have been deemed obscene. That's

452
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: no test. Well, yeah, and that that became a big

453
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: deal at one point because they basically, um, the law

454
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: said that community standards are like you can't have a

455
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: national stand or because what what the someone thinks in Skokie,

456
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: Illinois is not what in Sin City, Las Vegas. They

457
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: have an entirely different definition of obscenity and pornography, you know,

458
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: and they're right. Yeah, I guess they are right, which

459
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: is which is why I you I to me, it's

460
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: one or the other. Either get rid of anything that

461
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: could possibly be considered obscene or you allow it all.

462
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 1: So obscenity, it's obscene, it is. Well, we'll get more

463
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: into obscenity too, but um, there are a lot of

464
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: other facets of free speech that you might not really

465
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: think about. In two thousand thirteen, that was a case

466
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: Bland v. Roberts where there were these two dudes, um

467
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: that work for a sheriff department. You know sheriff's are elected.

468
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: They were running for office, and they were fired for

469
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: commenting and liking UM on an opponent's Facebook page, which

470
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, this gets into in the digital age and

471
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: the Internet age, a whole different slew of questions to

472
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: be answered, And they appealed that case and then and

473
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: one actually, yeah, Bland v. Roberts. As a result, Facebook

474
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: likes are considered protective protected free speech under the First Amendment.

475
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: Now yeah, but ibronic, well maybe not ironically, but Facebook

476
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: and social media in general you can also, I mean,

477
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: it's at their discretion whether or not they take something down,

478
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: and you can't say, well, that's free speech, and it's like, no,

479
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: this is our our private room. Essentially is our home.

480
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: And inside a private home you can tell someone to

481
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: shut up. Private home, private companies, Yeah, social media platform

482
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: Like if you show up to work in uh F,

483
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: the police shirt, they can fire you or tell you

484
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: to change it. And if you say no, no, no,

485
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: like this is my free speech, I'll go no, this

486
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: is my business. This is not a free speech. So

487
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 1: like like the mall, remember yeah, oh yeah, that's right,

488
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: poor Victor Gruing. Uh And here's the thing too is

489
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: and this isn't really section in our notes. But I

490
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: get kind of a riffin here. I get kind of

491
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: bugged these days with I think a lot of people

492
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: have the notion that freedom of speech means also freedom

493
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: from consequence, and those are two different things. Like freedom

494
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: of speech means that you were not going to be well,

495
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: you might even be arrested and convicted, but eventually it

496
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: will be overturned. You'll be vindicated. But if a business

497
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: or a comedian or a TV show does something that

498
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: people find offensive or provocateur YouTube and someone wants to

499
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: pick at them and shut them down or boycott them,

500
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: and they cry free speech, it's like you know, you know,

501
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: you said that you got away with it. You're not

502
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: in jail. Doesn't mean it won't be consequences. Well, yeah,

503
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 1: the right to protest is enshrined in the same free speech.

504
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, I hear a lot. It seems

505
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: like more and more of these days where people, um,

506
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: people whine about the consequences of their own free speech

507
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: and that's not enshrined in the constitution. There there very

508
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: likely will be consequences, right, people will hate you maybe,

509
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: But it's like you said, though, you know the the

510
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: the it's there to protect the unpopular opinion. There's this

511
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: guy Um who's a an expert on free speech at

512
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: Penn State. I believe um. He said, we have a

513
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: First Amendment to protect unpopular expression or the minority viewpoint,

514
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: because we don't need a constitution to protect the majority,

515
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: what the majority thinks. The majority takes care of itself.

516
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: It's a good point. It's the people who everybody else

517
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: hates and what they have to say. Um, that is

518
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: protected by the Constitution. Yeah. And uh, Harvard law professor

519
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: Noah Feldman, in a very Unharvard law like way, said, uh,

520
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: if your feelings are hurt, then that's your problem, snowflake.

521
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: You didn't say Harvard like JFK. He didn't say snowflake.

522
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: I was kidding, no, but he he. What he was

523
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: pointing out was basically the sentiment behind free speech in

524
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: the United States that as long as you are not

525
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: physically harming somebody you like, emotional harm is whatever. We're

526
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: not even gonna it's not even in a register. Well,

527
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: although that one article you sent that op ed there

528
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: there was the guy that argued that emotional harm was

529
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: worse than physical harm and had a longer lasting impact. Um,

530
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: so you know there are two sides to every argument there. Well,

531
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why Europe has said no

532
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: hate speech. It's harmful. Yeah. Yeah, Like, even if it

533
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: isn't physically harmful, it's emotionally it's an intellectually harmful it's

534
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: it's not good alright, So we've dabbled in an obscenity.

535
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: Uh one of the other and we'll talk a little

536
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: bit more about it. But one of the other things

537
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: that um, you can you can have insulting speech, but

538
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: there's something called fighting words, um that is not protected

539
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: and it's can be difficult to determine. And again over

540
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: the years the courts have tried to do so. But

541
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: in ninety nine that was kind of a landmark case

542
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: Brandon Burr v. Ohio, where Clarence Brandenburg was at a

543
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: clan rally in Ohio and said, we are we're not

544
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: a revengeent organization. But if our president, our Congress, our

545
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: Supreme Court continues to suppress the white Caucasian race, please,

546
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: it's possible that there might have to be some revengeance taken.

547
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: So they should have jailed him for grammar. Revengeance is,

548
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: of course not a real word, and make it neither

549
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: us revenge it. Although I think it's in a video

550
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: game now someone said, yeah, revengeance too, don't. I don't

551
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: think it's called that. Revengeance two called our parentheses s

552
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: I C right, what does that stand for? Again? Uh?

553
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: Sick I can't remember, Like, that's so sick they got

554
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: it wrong. I don't. I don't know remember now I think, yeah,

555
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: somebody else send it in people who tend to write

556
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: it after the stuff we write. We don't usually use

557
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: it ourselves. Yeah. It's funny, though. I have this thing,

558
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, just the weird quirky things that everyone sort

559
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: of does in their head in life. Whenever I see

560
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: s I C written in an article, I always try

561
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: and think of what word either they got wrong or

562
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: were replacing in the article, you know, to make make

563
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: more sense. Well, no, they use it too, because well,

564
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: if it's a misspelling or if it's not a word,

565
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: it's basically the writer or the editor saying this guy

566
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: got it wrong, not me. Yeah, yeah, but am I

567
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: thinking of a different was it? What is it? When

568
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: they um, that's just when they put it in brackets

569
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: and they put like there or something like the person

570
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: lets it out. Sick also goes in brackets, but it's

571
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: basically saying I'm aware that this is misspelled. Yeahs to

572
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: show what a dummy this guy is. I think I

573
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: do it in both cases, Like if it's a made

574
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: up word, I'll try and think of what like they meant,

575
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 1: or like the other one where there's just a parentheses

576
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: and they just basically add something to make it more sense.

577
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: I try and think of, like, what did they say

578
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: to begin with? It's a weird thing. No, I know

579
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: to mean in my head right now I have for

580
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: your eyes only. I thought you go away. You're trying

581
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: to figure out what I'm thinking. The brains brain does

582
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: some terrible stuff. I had that in my head now too,

583
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: because you came in singing it for your only? Why

584
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: do you? Doesn't make any sense? It doesn't. I haven't

585
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: heard the song in decades. A week long ear worm

586
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: from a song you haven't heard in decades? Was it

587
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: in a dream? I don't think so. You're dreaming about

588
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: She and Easton again. That's a good movie though. Uh,

589
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: what's the Connery one on it? No? No, that was

590
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: Roger Moore? Are you sure? Yeah? You're sure? I think

591
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: it was Sean Connery's last time? No, all right, I

592
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: may be right here. Go to the map for that one.

593
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: All right, Um, all right, Getting back to Brandenburg, the

594
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: the clan member who who didn't know how to talk right? Um,

595
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: he didn't talk good. He was arrested for ad dedicating violence,

596
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: and he won. Supreme Court decided in his favor and

597
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: thus began the history, the long history of the United

598
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: States saying, you know what, the clan wants to have

599
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: a rally out in the public town square and they

600
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: apply for their permit, you gotta let him do it.

601
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: But again that actually that the clans hate speech being

602
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: protected was lumped together and came out of the civil

603
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: rights movements freedom of speech being protected as well, because

604
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: they were like, well, hey man, stokely Carmichael says that

605
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, we gotta like take take the take control

606
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: from the white He's rise up and take control, like

607
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: that's hate speech, and the Supreme Court says, you know what,

608
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: you're right, and that's protected. So so it was what

609
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: the clan saying, or Illinois Nazis and Skokie right, second

610
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: time Skokie's made an appearance in this episode. Yeah, why

611
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: not a third um the usual. So yeah, anyway, I

612
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: think what you're you're saying is as a result, hate

613
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: speech is has a decades long tradition of being protected

614
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: at any and all costs unless you are using it

615
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: to incite violence, and that ties in to that original

616
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: prohibition on free speech that Oliver Wendell Holmes came up

617
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: with is that it presents a clear and present danger.

618
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: So rather than using that specifically to incite violence, you

619
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: basically have to be saying it's not enough to um

620
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: to say, uh, like, we black people need to rise

621
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: up and take control of the United States, and if

622
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: it has to be violent, it has to be violent.

623
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: But we can't live like this anymore. Right, If if

624
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: Stokely Carmichael saying something like that, or Malcolm X is

625
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: saying something like that, that is protected speech, even though

626
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of people, or it made a

627
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: lot of people uneasy to hear that kind of thing

628
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: and they said, hey, they're trying to start a race war,

629
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: it's still protected speech. On the other hand, if you said,

630
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: or Stokely Carmichael said everybody needs to go get the

631
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: shotguns and we're all gonna beet here on Tuesday and

632
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna take the streets Tuesday afternoon, that would not

633
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: be protected because he would be directly inciting violence. Yeah,

634
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: what what are the two things? That violence has to

635
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: be likely and uh, it has to the advocacy for

636
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: violence has to be um directed to inciting or producing

637
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: imminent lawless action, and then it has to be likely

638
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: to incite or produce such actions. So it's it has

639
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: to it has to be happening at some point that

640
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: you can point to next Tuesday. Something that's not vague

641
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: or indefinable, like we should do this in the future

642
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: if um, if we're not granted greater rights. So it

643
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: has to be something specific, and it has to be

644
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: likely to produce that effect. Right, So if somebody is

645
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: a great order and the people they're telling to get

646
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: their shotguns all own shotguns at home, that would probably

647
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: make it likely. And then a few years after um

648
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: that case. Another one has v Indiana from nineteen three

649
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: to find imminent a little further and it said an

650
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: advocacy of illegal action at some indefinite future time. That's protected, right,

651
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: so likely and eminent? Yes, interesting? All right, Well let's

652
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: take a likely and imminent break and we'll talk more,

653
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: even more about obscenity after this. George Large, I was skid,

654
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: all right, So did you see the movie Carneal Knowledge?

655
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: I didn't. I thought, um, for some reason, my I

656
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: was like body heats not that old that I thought

657
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: the movie was? Wasn't that a sexy one. Body heat

658
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: was quite sexy. I never saw that. One very good movie,

659
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: was it? Kathleen Turner, Kathleen Turner. That is correct? Uh,

660
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: Romancing the Stone Kathleen Turner Friends, Kathleen Turner, Romancing the Stones,

661
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: Kathleen Turner. It doesn't matter either way. She's a delight

662
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: body heat Kathleen Turner. Never saw it. It's good, very steamy.

663
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: That was going to Palmer, right, I think so? Yeah.

664
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: I think she's also the star of one of my

665
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: favorite all time movies, which is the War of the

666
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: roses Man. That is a great movie. I can watch

667
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: that movie a thousand times and not get sick of it.

668
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: That's on um alright. So Carnal Knowledge was the Mike

669
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: Nichols film with Jack Nicholson, Candice Bergen, and Art car Funkele.

670
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: Of all people, what is our gar Funkle doing in there?

671
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 1: He sings in a false that out throughout it's very nice.

672
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: All lines are in sing song. Um no, he he

673
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: was he acted in it was good? Was he good? Yeah? Yeah?

674
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: It was great movie. He like Paul Simon good, well,

675
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: he's acted too here and there. Really good movie though,

676
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, it was Mike Nichols. It

677
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: was not like porn, but it was just a very

678
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: frank movie about sex and relationships. Um, Like Nicholson plays

679
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: sort of a you know what you would think kind

680
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: of a womanizer, and Art gar Funkle a little more

681
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: uh tinder and um not as big of a womanizer,

682
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 1: trying to decide how to put all this, and it

683
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: kind of just follows him in three points of their

684
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: life from like college to middle age and their sexual exploits. Anyway,

685
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: it sounds kind of boring. Just really good movie, Yeah,

686
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: and very famously in nineteen seventy four. I think it

687
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: might have started in seventy three. And right here in

688
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: All Beneath Georgia, that was a theater manager that was

689
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: arrested for showing that movie in a theater. Oh is

690
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: that where this case comes from. Yeah, and he was

691
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: arrested and convicted of distributing obscene material. It's Jenkins v. Georgia, right.

692
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: Jenkins v. Georgia was a court case, and of course

693
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled, um that Colonel Knowledge was not obscene,

694
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: and I think in the ruling they said, it's Mike Nichols,

695
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: for God's sake, He's like, what are you thinking, precious treasure? Uh?

696
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: And um, well, they said that it basically your your

697
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: opposition to a state of Georgia making us so proud

698
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 1: is that there's nudity in it. And it's not a

699
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: lot of nudity. They were like, that's not enough. That

700
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: doesn't it's not patently offensive sexual, sexually explicit material that

701
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: has no artistic value. Yes, it fails the Miller test

702
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: is what it's called. Yeah, it passes. I guess it

703
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: would fail the Miller test because if you pass the

704
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: Miller tests, could be it would be obscene. Right, It's

705
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: a weird way to look at it. I guess. Uh.

706
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: Here in the modern age, like I said, with the

707
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: Internet opened up a whole host of issues with free speech,

708
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: and notably the Child Online Protection Act COPA. Yeah, that

709
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: was a big deal, very big deal. COPA was legislation

710
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: that was introduced to, you know, protect kids from online smut. Right.

711
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, uh, freedom of speech, I

712
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: have a kids said, no, they're gonna this is the

713
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: start of regulating the internet. The Internet is a free,

714
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: open wild West and it should not be regulated, So

715
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: don't try to regulate it. And again, everybody said except

716
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: for child pornography, and the person talking said, well, yeah,

717
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: except of course child preno. If you don't be stupid. Well,

718
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: COPA never actually went into effect. It went through three

719
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: rounds of litigation over the years, and um, you know,

720
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: basically one of the big things that the court would

721
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: say back was there are protections that parents can put

722
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: in to restrict their kids from this stuff, and that's enough. Yeah,

723
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: that's a huge thing. Like the court really tends to

724
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: to not like government overreach and tends to restrict it

725
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: whenever it comes about, right. Yeah, and this was really

726
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: tricky because what they were trying to do is apply

727
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: a federal law to community standards for a global product.

728
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: And that's just I mean, talk about complicated law. That's tricky.

729
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: It's very very tricky. Yeah. So, um, the court struck

730
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: it down in part because they thought it was overly broad.

731
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: They said that the what the government was considering offensive

732
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: material would not would not pass the Miller test, so

733
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: that was overly broad. And then they also said, yeah,

734
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: there's alternatives like parental controls that are widely available are

735
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: can solve the problem that the government's looking to solve,

736
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: which is restrict kids from pornography, um, but without restricting

737
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: anyone else's individual liberty right, so they said, see around copa.

738
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: Uh and justice Even Bryer wrote in a concurring opinion,

739
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: this is a good quote too, to read the statute

740
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: as adopting the community standards of every locality in the

741
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: United States would provide the most puritan of communities with

742
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: a Heckler's veto affecting the rest of the nation, basically

743
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: saying what many have said was, this is an impossible task,

744
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: so don't even try. I wish they'd take that that

745
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: idea with obscenity as well. Well. And here's the other

746
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 1: thing when they struck down cope. And this is another

747
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: really good quote, and this this one from U. S.

748
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: District Judge Lowell read Jr. Not lou read, but Lowell read.

749
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: Lou Reid said, take a walk on the wild side.

750
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: Lowell said, maybe after a nap. Lowell said, uh. And

751
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: this kind of sums up for me. I think he said,

752
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: perhaps we do the miners of this country harm if

753
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: First Amendment protections which they uh will with age inherit

754
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: fully are chipped away in the name of their protection right.

755
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: So basically like in trying to protect these kids, we

756
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: have restricted their free speech when they become adults. Very interesting, Yeah,

757
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: it's true, you know. Yeah, Um, the the courts, do

758
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: you go with obscenity, I'm great with it with the

759
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: courts have also kind of shaped um freedom of speech

760
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: or protective freedom of speech by saying yes, certain types

761
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 1: of speech are not protected. Obscenity, child pornography, fighting words,

762
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: fighting words, and then libel is another one. But one

763
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: of the ways they further protected even when they're restricting

764
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: it is to say, not everything that you say is

765
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: liabel is actually liable. It's print right. It's very I

766
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: think it more has to do with slanders words that

767
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: it is okay, so with libel laws, and I would

768
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: guess slander falls under the same laws, right, don't so,

769
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: But with libel laws, um, it's really difficult to prove

770
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: liabel right because the person printing the libelous um information,

771
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: which is basically you're defaming someone's character, and that's a

772
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: really old, longstanding prohibition. I think even back in ancient

773
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: Greece they had a certain amount of freedom of speech

774
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: in Athens classical athens Um, but even even that was

775
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: restricted as far as talking trash about someone's character. Right,

776
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: So that's a that's a really old idea that you

777
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: shouldn't You shouldn't put fake stuff about someone's character reputation

778
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: out there. And if you do, then they have recourse.

779
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: But to prove that that person said something libelous, they

780
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: have to have had malice of forethought. They had to

781
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: have um known that what they were printing was wrong

782
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: or untrue. Yeah, that's the key. It has to be untrue.

783
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: You can express an opinion about something and say someone's

784
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: a big poopy pants, but you can't say someone's big

785
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: poopy pants. Who did X, Y and z if that

786
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: isn't true, right, exactly? Um, And so it's really tough

787
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: to to prove to prove libel right. So it is

788
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: unprotected speech, but it's also protected in that it's not

789
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: very broad, it's very narrow. And then part and parcel

790
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: with that is um, satire and parody are also very

791
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: much protected in the United States, thankfully, and we have

792
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: Larry Flint Hustler publisher to thank for that. Yeah, every

793
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, people versus Larry Flint is a very good

794
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: job of that spelling out that case. But very famously

795
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 1: he went to war with the Reverend Jerry Fallwell because

796
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: he had a cartoon and his Hustler magazine that was

797
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: an unflattering, uh sexual depiction of Jerry Fallwell. It was No,

798
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: it was a fake campari ad. It was a spoof

799
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: campari ad. But it was a cartoon though, No, not

800
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: the one I saw. Really, I saw like a I'm

801
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: sure he han drawn. I'm sure he had that too.

802
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: But this what the court case was. It was like

803
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: a campari and there was like a campari um ad

804
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: campaign where people talked about their first time they had

805
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: campari or whatever, and Jerry fall Wells was, uh, he

806
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 1: and his mother got drunk on campari and had sex

807
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: in the outhouse and that was actually how he lost

808
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: his virginity. Jerry Falwell didn't like that, of course, so

809
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: he sued um. He sued Larry Flint, and Larry Flint

810
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: won that case. It went all the way up to

811
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Yeah, it was a case and they said, Nope,

812
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: this is parody. There's a satire. It's protected. If any

813
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: reasonable person um sees it and would know that it's

814
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: not true, it's protected. And and Larry Flint said, or

815
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: no reasonable person, right, pervert frack. That was yours is

816
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 1: better than mine? That was good? Oh yeah, what was

817
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: that going? Yeah? He sounded like what he Harrelson doing

818
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 1: Larry Flint, which is right on the money. In my head,

819
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: I sound like a muppety tenor doing what do he

820
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: Harrelson do? Great movie The Muppets people versus um. Yeah.

821
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: In any way, thankfully satire and is protected here in

822
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: the US because we have a long, rich history of

823
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: political cartoons and rich satire that can really make a difference.

824
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: Like you see what's going on with Saturday out Live

825
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: right now. It's like they've had a long, long tradition

826
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: of political satire and and most times that opening bit

827
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: they do is political in nature. Uh, And then you

828
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: know it's nothing new. They've been doing it forever. So

829
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just think it's it's when you

830
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: start like poking at that and the onion and you

831
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: know some of the great satirical publications that's that goes

832
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: down a bad road, you know. So took One of

833
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: the things that's coming up now that we're connected globally

834
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: is this idea that what we talked about at the beginning,

835
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: the US has very broad free speech protections some other

836
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: countries don't. There's like the the U N Universal Declaration

837
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: of Human Rights, right, some of that has has some

838
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: free speech protection in it. Not everybody signed on to it,

839
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: and a lot of people think there will never be

840
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: any way to to protect freedom of speech worldwide. Normally,

841
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: up to say the nineties, that wasn't that big of

842
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: an issue unless like Salman Rushdie published a book or

843
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: something like that, UM, because each country had its own standards,

844
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: and what what's said in one country typically stayed in

845
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: that country, even if it was offensive to another country.

846
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: Right the the the the two didn't collide. Now that

847
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: the internet's here, what's said in one country can be

848
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: carried immediately to another country, and the offense can be taken.

849
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: And this went out of hypotheticals and into real world,

850
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: well into the real world. UM. Back in two thousand twelve,

851
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: when a guy named Nakula Baseli Nakula released a fourteen

852
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: minute video called The Innocence of Muslims. Do you remember that?

853
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: I don't. It was extremely incendiary. If you, um were

854
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: a Muslim, you were going to be offended by this

855
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: because it basically said the prophet Mohammed was a fraud. Uh.

856
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: It had him as a flander, a womanizer, I think,

857
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: a pedophile. It was like, and the people who were

858
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: in it were scared to death because of the reaction.

859
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: There were riots around the world once it was translated

860
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: into Arabic and released. What they think was going to happen,

861
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, like I don't, I don't

862
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: remember if the person was a provocateur on purpose or

863
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: if these were their real beliefs son Islam. Regardless, they

864
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 1: were um Egyptian American, so the video was protected, even

865
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: though elsewhere in the world they were literally rioting the

866
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: streets and people were dying because this video existed. They

867
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: were so upset by it. But in the US t

868
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: s and as far as I know, it's still up

869
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: on YouTube right because it's protected by free speech. Well,

870
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: that's a that's a great example of should the US

871
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: have the freedom of speech that is going to cause

872
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: harm in another country now that those two countries are

873
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: connected via the Internet. There's no easy answer to that.

874
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: That was basically a rhetorical question at this point, but

875
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: it's one that I think is going to have to

876
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: be decided more and more and what goes to the

877
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: heart of his blasphemy in this case. Yeah, blasphemy specifically

878
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: means insulting God or any religious or holy person or thing. Uh,

879
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: it means different things in different religions. Um, it's actually

880
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: still illegal in some states in the US. Um. Oh is,

881
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: I thought the last one was struck down in two

882
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: thousand seven. H okay, well but two thousands up until

883
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: two thousand seven. Um, yeah, yeah, had laws until two

884
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: thousand seven. That's right again two thousand seven. Yeah. Uh.

885
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: But the last conviction for blasphemy in the US was

886
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: in night. So because these were laws that were sort

887
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: of on the books that no one did much about. Well,

888
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: there's a dude. It was in Little Rock, Arkansas, and

889
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: he was an anti religious atheist, this white supremacist who

890
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: um had an office and in the office there was

891
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: a sign out front I guess it was a storefront office,

892
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: and it said, um, evolution is true, the Bible is

893
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: a lie. God is a ghost. And he got arrested

894
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: and convicted for blasphemy. So again, this is night and

895
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: there were blasphemy laws on the books until two thousand seven,

896
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: and yeah, is it's it's really surprising to think that

897
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: the United States ever had blasphemy laws, but they were

898
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: fairly recent. Yeah, and you know when it comes to religion,

899
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: like the United States protects Westboro Baptist Church and they

900
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: say you can go out and you can have uh,

901
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: offensive messages on signs at military funerals if you want um,

902
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: because as the United States and we allow that. Yeah.

903
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: And so I think that kind of brings up that

904
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: one op ed you're talking about from the Atlantic, that um,

905
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: free speech isn't free. What's the title of it, Yeah,

906
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: what's the what's the guy who wrote its name? Garrett

907
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: Epps wrote it? Yeah, and he makes really great He

908
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: didn't even make a case, he just kind of presented

909
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: both sides well, and what he did was he was

910
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: a quote. And I think you're right on the money

911
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: with that um, with that summation, because he said, Um,

912
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: repressing speech has costs, but so it does allowing it.

913
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: And the only mature way to the system is to

914
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 1: look at both sides of the ledger. Right. That really

915
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: kind of says it all. Yeah, And he's basically saying

916
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: like it's not enough to be to say freedom of

917
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: speech exists because we have free speech in the U.

918
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: S America is a free country. You have to examine

919
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: why and you have to defend it or else it's

920
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: just a privilege, and privileges are always subject to attack,

921
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: but actual freedom is should be defensible, and so he

922
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: says we need to defend it, especially based on another

923
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: op ed that he was actually talking about by a

924
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: law professor from fordom Thane Rosenbaum said, Um, no, there

925
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: are actual harms to speech. It does cause physical or

926
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: it does cause emotional harm that can in some cases

927
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: exceed physical harm. It can be longer lasting, it can

928
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: have a greater impact on more people at once. Um.

929
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: And so why do we allow hate speech in the

930
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: United States? And Garrett Ups doesn't have the answer, He

931
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: just examines the whole question. I think really well, yeah,

932
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting. I mean, you know, he

933
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: makes a point that the same laws that allow for

934
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: strides of civil rights and feminism and gay rights groups

935
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: over the years are the same laws that protect the

936
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: people that have done them such harm over the years. Um.

937
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: And you know, like you said, you gotta look at

938
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: both sides of the ledger. It might cause harm and

939
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: there is a cost to it, but ultimately the freedom, well,

940
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: in my opinion least outweighs those harms. So there's this

941
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: guy named Jonathan Rausch who UM Garrett ups quotes, but

942
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: he wrote another OpEd that I read, and his idea

943
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: of why freedom of speech, including hate speech, is important

944
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: is because he says that if you suppress speech, you're

945
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: suppressing thoughts. Right, So if you suppress hate speech, it's

946
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: still gonna be there, It's still gonna be boiling under

947
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: the surface. People are still gonna quietly, subtly trade in it,

948
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: but you can't refute it. If you allow hate speech,

949
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: it can be refuted loudly, publicly. And then from that

950
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: and he makes the case that this is why gays

951
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: in America have made such strides in the last few years,

952
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: because of the vicious homophobia that was publicly hurled at them,

953
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: that they stood up and said, you know what, this

954
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: isn't true. You know what, we deserve this right. You

955
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: know what, we're not pedophiles, you know what, we should

956
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: be able to adopt everything, and shot down all this

957
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: stuff systematically. And America was watching this back and forth

958
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: and um, gay people one public sentiment just through logic,

959
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: he was saying, if you didn't allow that hate speech

960
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: in the first place, there wouldn't have been that position

961
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,439
Speaker 1: to address, um that hate speech. Improve it wrong because

962
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: you can't suppress hateful ideology. It's going to exist, So

963
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: allow the speech so it can be publicly refuted and

964
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: just smacked down. Yeah, yeah, I thought. I think that's

965
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: probably the asked explanation for freedom of speech. I've ever

966
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: heard a good way to close to huh Man, Thanks

967
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: a lot, Jonathan rosh Ah, You got anything else? No,

968
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: I don't, but a little tease before listener mail, We're

969
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: gonna have a couple of very intriguing follow ups to

970
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: recent questions. Okay, all right, well, if you want to

971
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: know more about free speech, uh to start talking. And

972
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: since I said that, it's time for whatever Chuck's got

973
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: up his sleeve. Yeah. Before I read the listener mail, UM,

974
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: two things were on a recent show. We asked about

975
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: our old buddy Sarah the Amazing fan and then our

976
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: old buddy Sam, the summer of Sam. Weirdly enough, we

977
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: come into the office and Sam's parents dropped off a

978
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: letter to us. Sam wants to be an intern here.

979
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: So he's around. He's in college, yeah, doing great, and

980
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: wants to intern and wrote us a letter and we're

981
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: gonna try and get him in here. Oh yeah. And

982
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: he wouldn't be our intern specifically'd be for how stuff works.

983
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: But um, we're going to burn a lot of currency

984
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: to make sure he gets this job. Yeah. I hope

985
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: it happens. It'd be great. It was good to hear

986
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: from him and sounds like college is going great. His

987
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: resume was stacked, buddy. Uh. And the other thing is,

988
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this because I did

989
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: the Facebook, but um, Katherine Mary Stewart of Night of

990
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: the Comet played the older sister Reggie. Uh and was

991
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: also in the Last Starfighter and we kened to Bernie's

992
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: and you know it was, you know, sort of the

993
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: darling in the nineteen eighties and nineties. Uh. And it's

994
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: still an actor today, does theater, working stuff and movies

995
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: and TV and radio. She does it all. Uh. She

996
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: got in touch with us. She listened to the Malls

997
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: podcast posted on Facebook that we shouted her out and

998
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: also her hometown Edmonton Mall and I was just knocked

999
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: out and told her to email us. She email that

1000
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: thinks she lives in New York, and I said, hey,

1001
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: listen next time. We do a show at the Bell House.

1002
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: I want to act out week end up, Bernie, I'll

1003
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: play I'll play the dead guy, and you and Josh

1004
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: can just pup it me around. Uh Now. It was like,

1005
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, come and bring your family. We'd love the

1006
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: guest list you. Maybe you can hop up on stage

1007
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: and we can chit chat for a minute. Nice. I

1008
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,959
Speaker 1: took the liberty of doing that. It was very nice.

1009
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: You're like, no, she can't get on stage. We need

1010
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: to edit that part out. I just thought that was

1011
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: very cool. Yes, very cool. Thanks for writing in Katherine

1012
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: Mary Stewart. Yes, and boys, she's found the fountain of youth.

1013
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: She looks exactly the same. Oh yeah, yes, uh and

1014
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: Sam too, he looks exactly the same. It's like twenty

1015
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: looked like he did when he was seventeen. Well, thanks, dudes. Oh,

1016
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: we haven't even done listener mail yet. No, so listener mail. Um, well,

1017
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read it. It's called would you rather?

1018
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: I feel bad for Jerry. She's not gonna know where

1019
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: to put the listener mail China. That's all right. Hey, guys,

1020
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: just finishing listening to soil It And uh, I thought

1021
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: I had a surefire argument starter for you guys. Josh's

1022
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 1: rant about the pros and cons of cooking and sharing meals.

1023
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't rain reinforce my position on the subject. I'd

1024
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: like to know what you think about it. Here's how

1025
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 1: you play would you rather and it's not the sexy one? Okay,

1026
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: you get to forego one thing that humans need to

1027
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: do in order to live, either eating, sleeping, or breathing.

1028
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: You can do the thing that you choose to forego,

1029
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: of course, you just don't need to in order to live,

1030
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: and you remain neutral in terms of pleasure or discomfort

1031
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: caused by the lack of the necessity. So you don't

1032
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: feel hungry, you don't feel sleepy, you don't feel affixiated.

1033
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: Stop out to me. So he wants to know what

1034
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: would we rather do without? Um mine is easy. I

1035
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: would easily read not breathe question who would want? Who

1036
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: would say, like, I don't want to eat. I get

1037
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 1: a lot out of breathing. I'd have trouble giving that

1038
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: one up. Well, Andrew said he would need that's the

1039
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: answer to that question. He said, I would always forego

1040
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: eating because of the money it takes to feed myself.

1041
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: And uh, the waking hours I would save. Yeah, I

1042
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: mean people's that's the two things with food, time and money. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1043
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: but you get so much pleasure of it. Breathing. Sure

1044
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: it's free, but who cares, especially if you're not going

1045
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: to die from not breathing. And this situation is weird

1046
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: fantasy world of his. I say, anyone who chooses, and

1047
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: this is Andrew talking, I say, anyone who chooses to

1048
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: forego sleep as a dummy, because not only are you

1049
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: not saving on food, you have to entertain yourself for

1050
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 1: an additional five hours a day. You argument there, though,

1051
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: is you could get more done. Sure, sometimes I do

1052
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: wish that you don't have to sleep enough to sleep.

1053
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes I also enjoy sleep too, he says. Plus, I

1054
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: could eat socially every now and then under these terms

1055
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: if I wanted to. But who would just take a

1056
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: nap if you don't feel refreshed afterward? Yeah, well I would.

1057
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: I love to sleep. And then the non breather are

1058
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: just like deep sea diving and exploring volcanoes and stuff.

1059
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: I guess, oh, what do you think about that perk? Yeah,

1060
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,959
Speaker 1: you just go swimming all the way at the bottom forever. Yeah,

1061
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: so it's clearly breathing is the answer. It's not even

1062
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: a subjective question at this point that we've proven it. Yeah,

1063
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: all right, keep up the good work. That's from Andrew.

1064
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: Thanks Andrew, you keep thinking work too. Yeah. Nice, I

1065
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: just want to see you're a sucker for not eating though. Yeah. Uh.

1066
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: If you want to try to stump us but fail

1067
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: at it like Andrew did, you can tweet to us

1068
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: at s y s K podcast. You can join us

1069
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook dot com. You can or slash Stuff you

1070
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: Should Know. You can send us an email to stuff

1071
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: Podcast at how Stuff Works dot com and it's always

1072
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: joined us at at home on the web. Stuff you

1073
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 1: Should Know dot Com. Stuff you Should Know is a

1074
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,

1075
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1076
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.