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Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace. Here, at a time when we

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Speaker 1: take advantage of you, your parents, your grandparents, and people

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Speaker 1: you love. At a time when we are all fighting

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Speaker 1: for you for free. Goodbye, friend, keep the faith. How

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Speaker 1: in the world does a beautiful young mom go missing,

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Speaker 1: neither sight nor sound, not hiding her hair of Gretchen

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Speaker 1: Anthony leaving behind a child. What happened to her? And

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Speaker 1: how in the world did COVID nineteen coronavirus minutes to

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Speaker 1: get into this Nario I, Nancy Grace, This is christ Stories,

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What an all star panel

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Speaker 1: to break it down and put it back together again

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out the mystery surrounding the disappearance

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Speaker 1: of Gretchen Anthony with me defense attorney former prosecutor Darryl

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Speaker 1: Cohen from the Atlanta Jurisdiction. James Shelnutt twenty seven years

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Speaker 1: Metro major case and SWAT now lawyer Karen Smith out

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Speaker 1: of LA Forensics expert, lecturer, University Florida and host of

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Speaker 1: Shattered Souls podcast. Ben Levitan Telecommunications expert joining me out

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Speaker 1: of Raleigh at bn levitan dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 1: psychoanalyst to the stars. You can find her at doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. But first to Ray Kaputo, Lead

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Speaker 1: news anchor Orlando Morning News w DBO rate they for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Let's start with you tell me about

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Speaker 1: since we don't know if she took off, we don't

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Speaker 1: know if she's kidnapped. We don't have a body tell

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Speaker 1: me about Gretchen Anthony's disappearance. When was it first noticed

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Speaker 1: she was gone, Yancy? This is a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: It's towards the end of March. Now, March tenth or

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Speaker 1: of party. March twentieth was when she was last seen. Now,

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Speaker 1: this where the story really starts, when a friend of hers,

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Speaker 1: a witness, starts getting these strange text messages on her

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Speaker 1: phone saying that she had checked into a hospital and

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Speaker 1: that she had coronavirus. So this is down in Jupiter, Florida.

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Speaker 1: It's a very posh section of South Order. Okay, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: hold on question right there, Jupiter Florida, Brett, look at

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Speaker 1: Jupiter Florida for me. Isn't that where Tiger King and

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Speaker 1: a lot of wealthy sports stars. I mean, I remember

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Speaker 1: it because I used to have a roommate in New

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Speaker 1: York that ultimately left New York and went to some

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Speaker 1: big spread down in Jeepiter. Then do you remember the

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Speaker 1: whole drama with Tiger King. That's when Jeepiter, Florida came

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Speaker 1: to the forefront. Isn't a bunch of rich what isn't

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Speaker 1: it a bunch of rich huge houses and enclays with

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Speaker 1: cul de sacs way down the streets. They can't really

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Speaker 1: get to them. Yeah, well, Nancy, if you pull it

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Speaker 1: up on a map, you can see Jupiter is is

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Speaker 1: a pretty big, you know town. I'm doing that right

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Speaker 1: now to see if you're actually telling them are these

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Speaker 1: million dollars homes? I mean, people who are off the

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Speaker 1: charts with wealth live in Jupiter, Florida, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of attracts, a lot of wealthy people. However, where

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Speaker 1: this happened was more inland. It was more of a

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Speaker 1: residential neighborhood. You know, these aren't these million dollars off

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Speaker 1: the chart home. So Gretchen Antony wasn't, you know, living

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Speaker 1: high on the Hawk. She was just a normal everyday

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Speaker 1: mom who was coming and going to work, just like

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Speaker 1: the rest of us. M jeepiter the Woods jeepiter is

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Speaker 1: Tiger Woods is flagship restaurant, and apparently he lives nearby there.

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Speaker 1: So you know why I am asking that to Daryl Cohen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're showing me is that where? Thank you for all

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Speaker 1: the pictures of him in his red shirt. But isn't

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Speaker 1: that where he lived when the big bust up between

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Speaker 1: Tiger Woods and his wife happened. See this isn't this true,

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen? Isn't this just the way the discussion goes

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Speaker 1: when we're preparing for cases at the District Attorney's office.

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Speaker 1: You go off on crazy tangents. But the community is

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Speaker 1: important because if she goes missing in a high crime area,

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, you think, okay, so there's drugs involved, she

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Speaker 1: was kidnapped, there's a home invasion. But when you're in

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Speaker 1: some wealthy enclave or the next door community, that's less

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Speaker 1: of a likelihood. Daryl Cohen, explain what I'm talking about, Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: in a high crime area where you have drugs going

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Speaker 1: back and forth, you have gangs, and you expect the gangs,

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Speaker 1: and you know the crime is going to happen. It's

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Speaker 1: just a quite which one where and how often in

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Speaker 1: a high end neighborhood it doesn't happen here? And that

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Speaker 1: I think is universal when some type of crime happens.

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Speaker 1: So the person who lives there, the male, the female

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Speaker 1: of the family, whatever it may be. Are you kidding

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Speaker 1: We've got a great neighborhood. It never happens here. Well well,

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Speaker 1: and actually they're right because statistically it's much less likely

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Speaker 1: to happen in a high end neighborhood, but it can

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Speaker 1: happen anywhere. That's what people don't understand. To doctor Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 1: Psycholo's joining me out of Beverly Hills. I mean the

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Speaker 1: whole point that the reason I'm bringing this up is

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to identify a kidnapper or a killer,

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Speaker 1: you have to take a look at the environment, not

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Speaker 1: only the victim's background. But I can tell you this,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't part of a drug transaction out on the corner. Bethany.

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Speaker 1: I told you about the time brand new prosecutor I

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Speaker 1: kicked a cop out of court when I saw his

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Speaker 1: police report that said the defendant approached him a corner

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Speaker 1: with a glassing bag, because I thought, who would do that?

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Speaker 1: You expect me to believe that get out of here?

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Speaker 1: Well guess what about three weeks later, Daryl, You're gonna

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Speaker 1: love this because you were You had just left the

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Speaker 1: DA's office when this happened. About three weeks later, I

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Speaker 1: went out to investigate a case by myself. I pulled

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Speaker 1: up to that very community and guess what. I looked

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Speaker 1: over at the stop sign. A guy was gesticulating at me.

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Speaker 1: I looked over. He was holding up a glassie bag.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I just dismissed that case for no

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Speaker 1: good reason and reamed a cop out, and the cop

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Speaker 1: took a long time to make up to that cop

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you that, So, doctor Bethany Marshall, this

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Speaker 1: woman is scrubbed in sunshine. She is in this or

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Speaker 1: next to this wealthy enclave where tiger Woods and others live,

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Speaker 1: so that narrows our pool typically, but not always. Bethany

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Speaker 1: Nancy And have you seen pictures of her and her husband,

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Speaker 1: such a beautiful couple. She's blonde, gorgeous, she has a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old daughter. And I know I'm going to

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Speaker 1: sound like a broken record here, but given that it's

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Speaker 1: likely not the environment, a drug bust gone wrong, a

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Speaker 1: home invasion and crime in the neighborhood, I wonder, because

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Speaker 1: she is so beautiful in her life, somebody in her

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Speaker 1: life who's preoccupied with her, somebody who sees her, or

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Speaker 1: a stalk, or it could be anything that's right upset.

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Speaker 1: I hear somebody, Oh, okay, I think that's Darryl saying

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Speaker 1: somebody could have been obsessed with her because she is

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Speaker 1: really pretty. I mean she looks like a beauty queen.

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Speaker 1: Um to Ray Kamputer, lead news anchor Orlando Morning News

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Speaker 1: w DBO, Ray, what did she do for a living?

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Speaker 1: I think I've got Ray Kaputer, but maybe I lost him.

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Speaker 1: Let's see if we can get that back up. Guys

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Speaker 1: on this panel, we're talking about Grutch and Anthony and

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Speaker 1: how she goes missing. We also know that coworkers first

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Speaker 1: realize that something may be wrong. Anybody on our panel

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Speaker 1: know what her job is. How these coworkers may have

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Speaker 1: known that something was very wrong before these odd text

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Speaker 1: messages crop up. But hold on, let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: text messages to be in Levitan telecommunications expert Ben. When

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Speaker 1: not a phone call, but when a text message is sent,

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Speaker 1: can you ping the location? This is why this is

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Speaker 1: so crazy. Every time you send a text or receive

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Speaker 1: a text, the phone company keeps the record for ten

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Speaker 1: years as to the cell tower that you used when

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Speaker 1: you sent that text. She sent a text claiming that

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Speaker 1: she was in uh where that she was in the

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Speaker 1: hospital Palm Westler Coronavirus Palm West Hospitals, twenty four miles away.

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Speaker 1: If you pull up that text message at the one

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Speaker 1: company pulls up that text message and that text message

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Speaker 1: originated from a cell tower and Jupiter, you know something's wrong.

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Speaker 1: You're busted buried, she said. The second text message from Belgrade,

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Speaker 1: that's fifty miles away. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: I want to soak in what you said at the

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Speaker 1: very beginning. You said that phone companies keep the location

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Speaker 1: of your text message for ten years. Would you say

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Speaker 1: ten years? Sometimes indefinite, It depends on the carrier, at

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Speaker 1: a minimum one year. But Nancy, what they keep track

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Speaker 1: of is a cell tower to which you were connected.

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Speaker 1: This is not a pinpoint location. And we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: pinpoint location in a minute, like you get for Uber

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Speaker 1: and Lift and that sort of stuff. But the record

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Speaker 1: they keep says, when you sent this text or when

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Speaker 1: you receive this text, you are connected to this cell

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Speaker 1: tower on Main Street and Jupiter, and that gets you

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Speaker 1: down to an area of four square miles. So it's

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Speaker 1: not pinpoint, but it's certainly evidence that you know, if

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Speaker 1: someone else sent that text message and you or either

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Speaker 1: or if she sent that text message and it's a

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Speaker 1: lie and she's covering something up. So of course there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of red tape in getting ping location. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about the disappearance of a young mom

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Speaker 1: of a little girl. Her name is Gretchen Anthony, and

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Speaker 1: she goes missing near the very wealthy enclave there in Jupiter.

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Speaker 1: What happened, guys, take a listen to our friends at

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Speaker 1: CBS twelve This is News reporter al Pelfrey. Witness told

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Speaker 1: police she got a suspicious text message from Gretchen Anthony

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Speaker 1: stating she had the COVID nineteen virus and she was

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Speaker 1: at Jupiter Medical Center. Police did find her car there,

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Speaker 1: but no sign of Gretchen hospital parking lot. Surveillance video

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Speaker 1: shows a man leaving the car there and walking away.

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Speaker 1: Then a few days later, I got a ping on

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Speaker 1: Gretchen's cell phone in your Pensacola where a jeweler reported

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Speaker 1: a guy trying to sell a bag of women's jewelry.

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Speaker 1: It's shocking, it's shocking. It's it's so disturbing. You don't

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Speaker 1: expect that in your neighborhood. Because I just keep thinking

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Speaker 1: about the little girl. According to a family friend, Gretchen

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Speaker 1: has a twelve year old daughter. Neighbor Susie Clement still

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Speaker 1: hopes Gretchen will be found alive. They're still hope. There's

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Speaker 1: still hope. I guess, right, as long as they don't

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Speaker 1: find a body, it's like it's a possibility. Gretchen Anthony

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Speaker 1: fought for divorce in February, just one month before she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me go out to

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Speaker 1: Ray Kaputo, joining US lead news anchor Orlando Morning News

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Speaker 1: w DBO. Right, there's a twelve year old girl that

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Speaker 1: is now without a mother. What can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about someone a jeweler reporting a man trying to sell

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Speaker 1: a bag of women's jewelry, because that puts a whole

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Speaker 1: another light on her disappearance. Was someone was the jewelry Hers? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was hers, And you know it shows that whoever

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Speaker 1: was getting rid of it either needed a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: or maybe there was something symbolic in all this jewelry,

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Speaker 1: perhaps they were trying to get rid of any of that.

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Speaker 1: This raised the alarm for the person who was possibly

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Speaker 1: tempting to buy it, and they never ended up purchasing it.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, you can reveal. You know, that's very

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Speaker 1: interesting because Daryl Cohen pawn shops. You know, when you

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Speaker 1: can't find a witnessing, you can't crack a case. There's

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Speaker 1: two places to go. One the counting jail because somebody

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Speaker 1: knows something. Number Two the pawn shops because whenever you

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Speaker 1: want to get rid of something hot, I think somebody's

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Speaker 1: trying to get in. Guys, tell me you're before you

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Speaker 1: jump in. When you're trying to get rid of stolen items,

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Speaker 1: you go straight to a pawn shop and usually they're

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Speaker 1: very heavily monitored Darryl Cohen. They have to be nancy

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Speaker 1: because they're so regulated. And over the years, so many

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Speaker 1: cases have been cracked, broken, solved because of the pawn

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Speaker 1: shop that has that wonderful string to the perp. The

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Speaker 1: person who's trying to get rid of items, oftentimes jewelry,

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Speaker 1: sometimes a gun. One never knows. But the pawn dunts

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Speaker 1: are just perfect places. The look and you're right, the

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Speaker 1: look they get a hairstyles, then we don't have those stow.

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Speaker 1: A witness calls police saying that her mother got a

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Speaker 1: text regrets and saying she was on a ventilator at

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Speaker 1: Palm's West hospital battling coronavirus. She specifically stated Palm's West Hospital. Okay,

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Speaker 1: if you are on a ventilator, doctor Bethanie Marshall, how

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Speaker 1: are you able to send texts? Or are you Nancy?

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Speaker 1: My first thought when I read this story was if

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Speaker 1: she's on a ventilator, she is not sending texts. And

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Speaker 1: just a quick comment about the pawn shop. Was the

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Speaker 1: person who was trying to sell the jewelry selling jewelry

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Speaker 1: that she might have been wearing all on one day?

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Speaker 1: Or was this a whole cash of jewelry that was

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Speaker 1: taken from a safe ooo or possibly taken from the house,

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Speaker 1: because this would provide a huge clue into who might

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Speaker 1: have something to do with her disappearance. Was it somebody

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Speaker 1: who robbed her took advantage of her a crime opportunity,

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Speaker 1: or was it somebody who was breaking into the house

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Speaker 1: to try to get other goods? And were there other

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Speaker 1: items being sold at pawn shops? And is there anything

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Speaker 1: else missing from her house? You know what, Bethanie, I've

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Speaker 1: got to patch you on the back for that. That's

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Speaker 1: a very good observation because to James Shelnutt twenty seven

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Speaker 1: years Metro Major case an swat Now lawyer. It makes

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Speaker 1: a difference because if somebody had, I guess my fitbit

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Speaker 1: the children gave me, or my necklace I wear all

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Speaker 1: the time, or my bracelet I wear all the time,

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Speaker 1: that would indicate that somebody grabbed me and got my jewelry,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to going into Gretchen Anthony's home and they

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Speaker 1: try to sell a whole bag full of jewelry. As

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Speaker 1: Bethany points out, that's very, very significant. James shelnutt oh,

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Speaker 1: I agree, And it can definitely as was mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: it can definitely help you narrowed down who may have

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Speaker 1: been involved in any particular crime that could have occurred.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that you look for

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Speaker 1: is whether or not something is a robbery. Oftentimes, if

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Speaker 1: something as a robbery, then that can indicate a different

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Speaker 1: person than if there is some type of other familiar

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Speaker 1: or domestic dispute going on. When you're talking about Paul

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Speaker 1: Dodols and Raka Puto, lead a news anchor Orlando Morning

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Speaker 1: News w DBO, let me ask you a very narrow question.

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Speaker 1: At the time she Gretchen Anthony goes missing, does her

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Speaker 1: car also go missing? Yeah, it does. Nancy, but it

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Speaker 1: turns up not too long after people notice Grutching's gone.

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Speaker 1: It turns up at the Jupiter Medical Center. Which wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, that is new information. The car turns

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Speaker 1: up at the Jupiter Medical Center. Interesting to ask you this.

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Speaker 1: That's only three miles away from their home, so it'd

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Speaker 1: be if she sent a message from Jubiter, you could

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Speaker 1: probably not tell if it came from her home or

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Speaker 1: from the hospital, So I wouldn't immediately be suspicious if

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Speaker 1: she said she was there. You know. The other issue, though,

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Speaker 1: is Daryl Cohen, when you were trying to get phone records,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure as a prosecutor defense from the um scipene

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Speaker 1: and phone records, they don't care if the person's missing.

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Speaker 1: They don't care if there's a child at home. It

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Speaker 1: still takes them ten days for them to process your

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Speaker 1: subpoena Dicas Tacom and get the records. You basically have

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Speaker 1: to get a court order to put a fire under

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Speaker 1: the rear ends of phone companies. Would you agree or disagree? Darryl?

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Speaker 1: I would agree one thousand percent, because all they care

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Speaker 1: about is covering their proverbial rear end, and they don't

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Speaker 1: want to provide any records because it's a very bureaucratic situation,

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Speaker 1: and if you don't have the right subpoena signed by

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Speaker 1: a judge, then you will never get them. And even

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Speaker 1: oftentimes when that subpoena is there provided to the phone company,

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Speaker 1: you still are the phone provider. You will still have

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Speaker 1: a very difficult time in receiving those records in a

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Speaker 1: timely fashion. Just almost never have You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand that because I've been in the situation many times

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cone, where I needed those phone records, and compare

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Speaker 1: to this where the pings could possibly save her life

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Speaker 1: and there's really no way. Well, I have seen it

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Speaker 1: turned around in twenty four hours, but that took basically

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Speaker 1: an act of Congress to get the phone company to

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Speaker 1: do that. You know, Ben Levitan, you're the telecommunications expert.

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Speaker 1: What's their problem with the phone company? You got understood

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Speaker 1: the telephone business is competitive. If you found out that

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Speaker 1: your cell phone carrier was very lax about privacy with

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Speaker 1: your information, you'd probably go to another carriers. It really

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Speaker 1: is an issue you do not want to be perceived

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Speaker 1: as that. You know, it's to that's totally bass Awkwards.

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Speaker 1: Ben Leviatan because for me, I would want the phone come,

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Speaker 1: need to fork over the information immediately. If I my husband,

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Speaker 1: my children, my mom, if any of us were missing,

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Speaker 1: I'd want it right then. So I guess I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at it in a different way, guys, But there is Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's an exegen process. If someone is like kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: thrown in the back of a car, there is a

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Speaker 1: process called exegen situation where the police continue immediately and

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Speaker 1: do the paperwork later. Let me tell you something, Ben

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Speaker 1: love Atna know you're talking about. Exigent circumstances comes from

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Speaker 1: an old US Supreme Court case US versus Carol, which

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Speaker 1: actually happened during the Moonshine era. Exigent circumstances. The cops

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Speaker 1: were trying to get a car that was weighed down

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Speaker 1: in the back of the trunk, and they thought it

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Speaker 1: was moonshine and they needed a warrant, and they used

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Speaker 1: exigent circumstances. That's how old that theory is. And you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. I've just never seen it happen with any

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Speaker 1: phone company. Where is Gretchen Anthony Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: Her car turns up as Ray Kabuto tells us at

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Speaker 1: a Jeep dramatical center. She says she's in the hospital

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Speaker 1: on a ventilator, so says her text. But the cops

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Speaker 1: all the area hospitals and she's not there. Why with

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Speaker 1: someone parker car at a hospital and then somebody gets

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Speaker 1: this text. That's an awful lot of planning for a

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Speaker 1: random kidnap or murder. But now as police begin to

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Speaker 1: delve into her background, let's play that cut from Jackie.

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Speaker 1: We don't know much about what was going on with

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Speaker 1: this couple, but we know a little bit. We know

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Speaker 1: that they recently filed for divorce, and that is usually

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you know, it was perks

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Speaker 1: the ears of investigating this that divorce or infidelity and

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Speaker 1: jealousy are often the causes of, you know, these murders

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Speaker 1: between couples or married couples. They were married in March

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Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen in Nevada, and then they filed for

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Speaker 1: divorce at the end of February, and apparently they had

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Speaker 1: both signed the papers for the divorce petition sometime in January.

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Speaker 1: The divorce remains open. But I would say that's actually

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Speaker 1: moot right now because he's a widower. Yeah, whether he

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Speaker 1: killed her or not? Yeah, or so we think he's

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Speaker 1: a widower. Question out to you, Betthy Marshall. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to circle back to you on the dynamics of a divorce.

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Speaker 1: Apparently both of them had signed a divorce. Looks like

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Speaker 1: they had a wedding out in Vegas in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: To Karen Smith, who has rejoined US out of LA

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Speaker 1: Forensic expert lecturer, University Florida, host of Shattered Soul's podcast, Karen,

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Speaker 1: Once that car was identified sitting outside the medical center,

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Speaker 1: how do you process that and what do you look for?

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Speaker 1: Pretty basic, Nancy, Listen, you have a car that's been

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Speaker 1: apparently abandoned in a hospital. First thing I'm gonna do

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Speaker 1: is I'm going to photograph that. I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: some Layton Prince in DNA on the outside. Once you

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Speaker 1: get inside, you're gonna look for any cans, bottles, coffee cups,

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Speaker 1: things like that, perfect for fingerprints in DNA. You're looking

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Speaker 1: for foreign substances other than Gretchen Anthony who may have

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Speaker 1: been inside this car and drove it. Listen, technology is

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Speaker 1: wonderful and it's on our side, so hopefully they may

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Speaker 1: have found something foreign. To Gretchen. Inside that car, I

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Speaker 1: would also look to see was the car seat rolled

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Speaker 1: back to accommodated man versus a woman. I would also

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Speaker 1: look for items and the trunk. I would look for

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Speaker 1: a brand, a cadaver dog and a scent dog, two

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Speaker 1: different kind of dogs to smell the car. We all

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Speaker 1: remember Daryl Cohen the top Mom Casey Anthony case where

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Speaker 1: air samples were actually taken out of the trunk and

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Speaker 1: molecules within the air samples from the trunk showed decomposition.

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Speaker 1: That's what a smell is, right, You're smelling something and

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Speaker 1: particles of that thing still remaining the air, hence the smell.

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Speaker 1: So I would bring out dogs to smell the car,

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Speaker 1: cadaver dogs. I would check out the dirt on the tires.

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Speaker 1: I would get the tire tread. How do I know

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Speaker 1: the dirt on the tire systems straight out of her

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Speaker 1: home yard or somewhere else that could be significant. Don't

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Speaker 1: know if it would be or not, but I would

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Speaker 1: get it. I would take the tire tread in case

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Speaker 1: we needed to use it later. Of course, as Karen

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Speaker 1: Smith said, fingerprints. But you also I would bring in

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Speaker 1: the phosphorus light to look for blood droplets or spresolutely

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Speaker 1: absolutely listen lemonol lemon of course, yes, I mean all

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Speaker 1: the process you're you're talking about are absolutely relevant. And

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Speaker 1: luminol is a chemi luminescent substance that detects blood where

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Speaker 1: you can't see it with the naked eye. So we

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Speaker 1: would use that. We would use color blood tests to

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Speaker 1: test substances that may be consistent with blood inside there.

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Speaker 1: All of those things you listen. You know another issue.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people think that there are items you

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Speaker 1: can't get a fingerprint off. For instance, let's just say, Brett,

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Speaker 1: did you know this? You used piece of soap. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it still may be moist, but you can take that

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Speaker 1: piece of soap and you can put it in the

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Speaker 1: fridge and let it cool and then dust it. For Prince,

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Speaker 1: did you know that it's easy to get prints and

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Speaker 1: even off a strange substances. Also, you know a great

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Speaker 1: place to get Prince, James shell nut the visor the visor.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times when people dust for prints in

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Speaker 1: a car, they don't check the sun visor. And if

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Speaker 1: the car had been stolen, I guarantee you the driver

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Speaker 1: would pull down the visor to mask his or her face.

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Speaker 1: And that's a great place to get prints. What about it,

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Speaker 1: shell Nut, Oh, I agree with you one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: You know the thing about it, when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: crime scenes like this or trying to identify people through

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Speaker 1: forensic evidence, you know, people can do a very good

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Speaker 1: job cleaning up, but it is hard to get everything.

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Speaker 1: And there are so many things that we touch that

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Speaker 1: we don't think about touching, that we don't remember touching.

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Speaker 1: And it's just like what was mentioned a minute go.

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Speaker 1: Of the luminol, it is next to impossible. When you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of blood at any type of crime scene,

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Speaker 1: it is almost impossible to get every bit of blood

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Speaker 1: up so that agents like luminol or other agents don't

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Speaker 1: identify the one. You know, another great thing to look for,

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Speaker 1: shall not hair and fiber Absolutely, now here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: Anybody that was rightfully in that car, the child, the

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Speaker 1: soon to be ex husband, anybody, neighbors, coworkers, you might

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Speaker 1: find evidence of them being in there, and then you've

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Speaker 1: got to exclude that and see what else is left.

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Speaker 1: So even a killer could have rightfully been in that car.

425
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: But you know, regarding hair and fibers, you shed hair

426
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: and fibers without even knowing it. You know, you get

427
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: an h vacuum there, you know, explain what I'm talking

428
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: about when I'm talking about that, Karen Smith, and how

429
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: it works. An h vac We used to use them.

430
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: They were clean too, with a clean filter. Was a

431
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: small little vacuum cleaner, and the evidence would be sucked

432
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: up into the vacuum cleaner and it would stop on

433
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: this clean filter, and then we would turn the filter

434
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: into the property room for the lab to go through

435
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: it and sort through the harrits of fibers, even the

436
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: soil samples, little mica and sand and whatever might be

437
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: on the surface that you vacuum. That's how that works. Yeah,

438
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: I mean it looks like ooh, a handheld Vac's what

439
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: it looks like. But it's it's highly tuned, so it

440
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: picks up every fiber and keeps it on a clean

441
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: surface to use for id purposes at the crime lab. Guys,

442
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: we're talking about the disappearance of this mom, this wife

443
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: soon to be divorced. Doctor Bethany Marshall, tell me your

444
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: analysis of what you heard regard both of them amicably

445
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: signing the divorce papers. Well, I'm not sure that I

446
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: would believe that what I hear in my consulting room

447
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: and what couples tell the public are two entirely different things.

448
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: I'm imagining the two of them sitting in my office

449
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: and what I would be evaluating in terms of both

450
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: of their mental health and what the separation meant. I

451
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: would be wondering who initially wanted the divorce. I would

452
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: be wondering if Gretchen had made any recent attempts to

453
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: gain some independence from her husband, like starting any university course,

454
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: making more friends, taking more time away from the house.

455
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: I would wonder how the husband felt about losing control

456
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: over the daughter, if he had some special relationship with

457
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: the twelve year old. I would be very interested to

458
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: know what the husband was saying to the community at

459
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: large about this looming divorce. Was he talking in a

460
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: positive way of out Gredgen. Was he was saying, you know,

461
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: it is so sad, I'm so upset, but you know

462
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: she has a great life ahead of her. I want

463
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: the best for her and our daughter. Or is he

464
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: devaluing her? Is he being derogatory? Is he putting her down?

465
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: That would be a very important clue, Nancy. People in

466
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: good mental health can distinguish between separation an autonomy which

467
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: happens during the divorce, and rejection and abandonment, and when

468
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: people get stuck. If the husband did and feelings of

469
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: rejection and abandoned, then they become very putative. And one

470
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: final thing I would have says, just from a forensic standpoint,

471
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: is who is making the money? What did money mean?

472
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: If she's leaving him, is she taking a good deal

473
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: of money with her? Did he take out a life

474
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: insurance policy? Did either of them have trust money that

475
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: they were living off of, or money from other source

476
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: that one or the other had become dependent upon in

477
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: some way. But how couples talk about a divorce is

478
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: very telling in terms of what's going to happen after

479
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: the divorce. And Nancy, seventy four percent of women who

480
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: are stalked are stalked by their own husbands before, during,

481
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: and after a divorce. You know, Bethany, that's a lot

482
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: to take in as police go door to door within

483
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: her neighborhood. There in wealthy Jupiter, Florida, the focus of

484
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: the missing person's investigation suddenly turns on a dime. Take

485
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: a listen to our friend at CBS twelve. This is

486
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: News reporter Al Peffley. Police say Gretchen Anthony was last

487
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: seen here at her Jupiter home March twentieth. Police say

488
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: they found blood inside the home, but so far there's

489
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: no trace of Gretchen. It's a shock. I mean, it's

490
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: a really quiet neighborhood here, a lot of families. Lafia

491
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: Susie Clement lives with her family in the same Avoca

492
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: neighborhood as Gretchen Anthony and she can't believe what she's

493
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: been hearing about the case. And she's not the only one.

494
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: This is very shocky. We're in a very safe, quiet

495
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: name of and nothing like this ever happens here. According

496
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: to a Jess Releast report, a neighbor heard a woman's

497
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: blood curdling scream at about six in the morning March

498
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: twenty first. It seemed to come from the Anthony's home.

499
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: She also reportedly heard a woman yelling no, no, it hurts,

500
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: and police found what appeared to be large bleach stains

501
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: on the floor of the garage leading out to our

502
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: the driveway. Even now you can see white stains on

503
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: the cement by the garage door. Police also found red

504
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: stained towels in the washing machine, broken glass, and bloodstains

505
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: in the master bedroom. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A

506
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: neighbor here is reportedly blood curdling screams coming from the home.

507
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: I'm very curious if the neighbor called nine one one

508
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: and reported that or just didn't nothing. And also, we're

509
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: finding bleach stains on the floor of the garage leading

510
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: to the driveway, towels in the washing machine, broken glass,

511
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: and blood stains in the master bedroom. That's a lot,

512
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: you know. Do you recall to Darryl Cohen when Lacy

513
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: Peterson went missing, we find out her husband, now convicted

514
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: of her murder, had suddenly turned into a neat neat

515
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: nick and immediately upon announcing her disappearance, he suddenly did

516
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: loads and loads of laundry and mopped the floor with

517
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: a bleach. Do you remember that, Daryl Cohen, I found

518
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: my husband mopping the floors with bleach. I definitely call

519
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: nine one one right then. I remember Scott Peterson very well,

520
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: who became very domesticated very quickly, and that helped in

521
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: the investigation. Because tiger is regardless of whether they're in

522
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: or landoor or not, they usually don't change Leopards don't

523
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: lose their spots and so yes, Scott became very very domesticated,

524
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: and that was very, very helpful when they finally arrested

525
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: him and he was convicted. Guys, we are talking about

526
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: someone who suddenly begins cleaning the house or basically a cleanup.

527
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: I want to go through what is found. Could I

528
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: have that document place, because that outlines all the evidence

529
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: in the home. You know, we have bleached stains on

530
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: the floor of the garage leading to the driveway, red

531
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: stained towels in the washing machine. To doctor Bethany Marshall,

532
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: do you remember the Travis Alexander Jodi Arias case where she,

533
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: Jody Arius, put the bloody sheets and coincidentally her cell

534
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: phone pictures in the washer. Nancy, you took the words

535
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: right out of my mouth. I was just thinking about

536
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: Jodi Arius. That's the first thing she did. She put

537
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: the bloody sheets into the washing machine and lost her

538
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: cell phone. At the same time, I was also thinking

539
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: about several stories we've covered where children go missing and

540
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: all of a sudden is a little tangential, but the

541
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: baby pictures, the toys, everything belonging to the child is

542
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: just thrown out in the trash, and it tells me that,

543
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: you know, in the face of these kinds of crimes,

544
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: behavioral evidence is so important. People do all kinds of

545
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: crazy things to either cover up or to throw people

546
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: off the trail. But you were talking about marital dynamics.

547
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: I would want to know prior to this, who did

548
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: the laundry, who scrubbed the floors, who cleaned the house,

549
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: who took care of all the domestic chores. Was he

550
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the one who worked and she stayed home? If so,

551
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: why is he scrubbing the floor with the leach. It's

552
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: so suspicious. Straight out to Raycopudo, joining US lead news

553
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: anchor Orlando Morning News WDBO, What all was found at

554
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: the home? Raykopudo? What can you tell me? Yeah, there

555
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: was cleaning solution and rags out looked like somebody had

556
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: just cleaned the house. They brought a cadaver dog in

557
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: and it started sniffing around and hit on some stuff

558
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: there was in the garage. There was a mixture of

559
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: blood and bleach, which suggested an attempt to clean up

560
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: that crime scene. And then, of course, you know, later

561
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: on we found Gretchen's car, but there was a lot

562
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: of evidence. It showed that somebody tried to clean up

563
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: the mess make it look like nothing happened. You know

564
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: what's interesting to James shell Nutt, twenty seven years Metro

565
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: major case and swatnew lawyer. A random killer doesn't clean

566
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: up the scene. They kill for either money or a

567
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: sex assault, to steal something, and then they leave. They

568
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: get the hay out of there as quickly as they can.

569
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: To take time to clean up means the killing is

570
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: not random. No, you're exactly correct. When you start to

571
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: clean up something. The reason that most people clean it

572
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: up who have committed a murder like this is because

573
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: you believe that there is some type of evidence left

574
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: at that scene that may allow authorities to connect that

575
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: murder to you. I'm wondering if that's why. But then

576
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: we find out about some unusual behavior. I want you

577
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: to go to your cut number three Brett. That would

578
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: be our friends at WPBF twenty five news reporter Terry Parker.

579
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: Police say David Anthony was approaching young girls approximately fifteen

580
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: years old, pacing back and forth in sweating profusely. His

581
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: truck's license plate was altered with black tape, which police

582
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: say he blamed on his twelve year old stepdaughter. An

583
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: officer says Anthony at first ignored his instructions to stay

584
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: outside of his truck and had to hold him at

585
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: gunpoint until backup arrived. Then, they say, Anthony lunged into

586
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: his truck and repeatedly slammed or on the arm of

587
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 1: the officer trying to drag him back out. A sergeant

588
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: eventually subdued him with several strikes to the throat he

589
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: was holding a blunt object. Anthony, a fitness instructor with

590
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: a long criminal background of minor crimes, was released on

591
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: bond and ordered not to leave Palm Beach County. Guys,

592
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about the disappearance of a young mom, Gretchen Anthony,

593
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: and now we're hearing about extremely erratic behavior on the

594
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: part of her husband just before she goes missing, weeks

595
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: before Anthony goes missing, weeks before husband David Anthony, approaching

596
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: young girls fifteen years old and pacing back and forth,

597
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: sweating profusely changed the license plate tag on his truck

598
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: by altering it with black tape. What do we know

599
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: about that, Ray Kaputo? Because as I always say, when

600
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: you don't you can't identify the perp. Look for the

601
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: irrational behavior. That's the person. Well, we got somebody who

602
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: just went through or is going through a big life event.

603
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: People say divorces can be one of the hardest things

604
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: you experienced, and we got that. Then we have this

605
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: this bizarre behavior of him sweating, acting suspicious, and I

606
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: think what's most alarming is that he is really not

607
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: showing any fear of a law enforcement officer pulling a

608
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: gun out. I mean, he seems like somebody who's just

609
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: he's not with it. And then you stack this up

610
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: with his rap sheet, the fact that people who knew

611
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: him said he had issues. In fact, I was doing

612
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: some research on social media and I found some people

613
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 1: who knew him from from back in college who said

614
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: he was bizarre back then. So you put all this

615
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: together and you show it's a person not in the

616
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: right mind. You mean, he had irratic behavior all the

617
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: way back to college. That's what I've learned. Yes, guys,

618
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: probably beyond that. What we know right now is that

619
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: all of this has culminated and the arrest of Gretchen's husband.

620
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: To you, Ray Kauto, has a body been of a

621
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: Nancy The body has not been found, No nobody knows

622
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: where it is. They're they're putting out they're putting out information,

623
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: they're asking people if they've seen anything. But right now

624
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: we don't know where Gretchen Anthony is. Wait as justice

625
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: then falls. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,