WEBVTT - 7. Love or Money 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:35.396 Pushkin. A week after his arrest in early April nineteen 0:00:35.436 --> 0:00:39.636 eighty one, Fred took a polygraph exam. Surprisingly, it wasn't 0:00:39.756 --> 0:00:44.236 ordered by law enforcement. It was ordered by Fred's defense team. 0:00:44.276 --> 0:00:49.196 Polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable, but Fred's lawyers were hoping 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:53.916 that a successful polygraph would help prove his innocence. There 0:00:54.036 --> 0:00:56.636 was a lot to go over. Fred had entered a 0:00:56.676 --> 0:01:00.316 plea of not guilty, but the second autopsy showed trauma 0:01:00.396 --> 0:01:03.556 to Verna and Doug, bruises and marks that seemed to 0:01:03.596 --> 0:01:09.076 bolster the CoP's working theory that Fred had killed them violently. 0:01:10.756 --> 0:01:13.876 The polygraph was meant to bring clarity. It was a 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:20.076 past failed test. Fred was either a liar or he wasn't. 0:01:21.396 --> 0:01:25.236 If you didn't have any connection with their death other 0:01:25.236 --> 0:01:29.676 than accidental, the believing you pass a pot. This is 0:01:29.676 --> 0:01:33.556 the polygraph examiner explaining the process to Fred. I had 0:01:33.676 --> 0:01:35.836 no idea if you're going to be lying to me 0:01:36.196 --> 0:01:38.276 or tell me the truth. But after we get into 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:39.836 this for a couple of hours, you're going to find out. 0:01:39.836 --> 0:01:43.036 I can tell when you lie, if you're responsible doing that, 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.196 or you tell a movie water or anyway. So of course, 0:01:46.236 --> 0:01:48.716 and here by my way, and you will fail the polygraph. 0:01:49.556 --> 0:01:53.516 After the examiner had established Fred's baseline how he reacted 0:01:53.556 --> 0:01:57.396 to questions of various kinds, he started asking him about Verna, 0:01:57.676 --> 0:02:01.436 Doug and what happened on January second, nineteen eighty one, 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:06.316 the day they drowned. Then I have lunch luncher? Did 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:10.316 you have on one? Because I was, as Fred this, No, 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:12.516 that's a bunch of bullshit. That's a bunch of bullshit. 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:14.516 How about Doug? Was he doing some time? That Vernon 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:17.556 has been swimming since we bought the boat and bought 0:02:17.556 --> 0:02:20.356 our house and Malda. I think when we went to 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:23.196 my parents' house she went in the pool, but she 0:02:23.396 --> 0:02:26.316 was really not a good swimmer. How did you get along? 0:02:26.396 --> 0:02:33.516 There was everything okay in the bedroom. It was actually 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:38.316 a social Actually everything was terrific in the room. And 0:02:38.916 --> 0:02:42.396 how about between the three that you had done yourself 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:46.476 and burn up? How was publish relationship that good? Bad? 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:50.836 Or very different? Yeah? I would say it would be 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:55.756 good with the qualification. The qualification was that they disagreed 0:02:55.916 --> 0:02:58.516 about how to handle Doug. If there were going to 0:02:58.556 --> 0:03:02.716 be points of concern between Burnie and I about the children, 0:03:02.836 --> 0:03:07.116 that's working on my king. The examiner flipped the tape 0:03:07.156 --> 0:03:10.156 over to the other side, then continue asking Fred about 0:03:10.196 --> 0:03:12.476 the day of the drownings. Well, then you were tired 0:03:12.516 --> 0:03:15.196 of how worn it so? Then forty fives two bodies 0:03:15.236 --> 0:03:21.876 on worn? Yeah? Did you almost die? But keep you going, Fred, 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:27.396 that's okay. Just I realized were you a frame of diing? 0:03:31.156 --> 0:03:35.436 He just couldn't stop, could you? Fred had started getting emotional. 0:03:41.476 --> 0:03:49.636 Did you think he stopped, you would have died. I 0:03:49.796 --> 0:03:54.516 just knew that I was wearing down. I didn't die 0:03:54.556 --> 0:03:57.316 for for a long time. I know when I'm tired underwater. 0:03:57.436 --> 0:03:59.396 I know when my breathing he screwed up and I 0:03:59.436 --> 0:04:02.236 can't get my breath, and all those things were going on. 0:04:02.796 --> 0:04:06.876 I was taken on water just at all turned to ship. 0:04:10.436 --> 0:04:14.316 The exam lasted over an hour. Near the end, Fred 0:04:14.436 --> 0:04:18.116 told the examiner he wasn't feeling so good. I'll see 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:20.516 how you do it first? Can pretty gooey? Oh you 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:34.756 are a sweaty answer? Is this normal? Abnormal? How awful? 0:04:35.156 --> 0:04:43.876 Fred said? A few minutes later, the tape ends. When 0:04:43.916 --> 0:04:46.356 I asked Fred the result of the polygraph, he told 0:04:46.396 --> 0:04:50.676 me it was inconclusive. He didn't pass or fail, he said, 0:04:51.196 --> 0:04:53.516 and the polygraph was never a factor in the trial. 0:04:55.036 --> 0:04:57.996 But there was one question the examiner asked that seemed 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:01.556 to come almost out of the blue. It was abstract 0:05:01.676 --> 0:05:05.316 and vague, and yet it drove right to the heart 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:09.036 of the investigation, right to the heart of Fred's motive. 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:14.636 Vaitions in life quest you loved the most? Love or Money? 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:20.076 That one. Fred didn't answer right away, and when he did, 0:05:20.676 --> 0:05:24.956 his voice had the controlled, deliberate quality of a valedictorian 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:33.116 on graduation day. I think is most important. Okay, now, 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:36.916 you guys. But the question of money and how badly 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:40.716 Fred needed it, that was exactly what law enforcement had 0:05:40.716 --> 0:05:46.156 been trying to figure out. I'm Dana Goodyear and this 0:05:47.556 --> 0:06:21.996 is Lost Hells Episode seven, Love or Money. Fred and 0:06:22.156 --> 0:06:25.636 Verna were supposed to be a love story. They'd both 0:06:25.716 --> 0:06:29.516 overcome the tragic, untimely deaths of their first spouses to 0:06:29.676 --> 0:06:34.276 find love again. But there were some irregularities in the 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:40.636 origin story. One it seemed like maybe they'd gotten together 0:06:41.036 --> 0:06:46.396 before Jean died. When the Santa Barbara detectives asked around 0:06:46.436 --> 0:06:50.076 about Fred and Verna, they heard one thing loud and clear. 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:53.236 Whether you approved or you didn't, It had been a 0:06:53.356 --> 0:06:57.996 whirlwind romance. In handwritten notes Fred made around the time 0:06:58.036 --> 0:07:00.436 of his trial, he laid out the way in which 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:07.636 his relationship with Verna changed babysitter, friend, lover wife. At 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:11.876 the line for lover, he writes da dates as if 0:07:11.956 --> 0:07:14.956 he's trying to get a handle on what law enforcement knew. 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:19.596 That's because the detectives had started to suspect that Fred 0:07:19.676 --> 0:07:25.676 and Verna were having an affair before Jean died. Verna's 0:07:25.716 --> 0:07:28.556 friend and confidant, Patty Lytell, had told them as much, 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:31.516 and when Fred's investigator went to talk to her, she 0:07:31.716 --> 0:07:36.916 doubled down. Here she is talking to the investigator. I 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:39.276 didn't ask this. She's having an affair with him. She 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:47.476 told me too. I realize Verna and I were very close, 0:07:47.876 --> 0:07:53.716 leaving it close together. True, that would be a problem 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:56.916 were it ever to come out in court. Questioned by 0:07:56.956 --> 0:08:00.796 the detectives, Fred's sailing buddy, Dick Felfoean admitted to his 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:04.676 affair with Jean, but Fred always denied knowing about it. 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:08.476 Even to this day, he denies it, and he denies 0:08:08.556 --> 0:08:12.276 he and Verna got together before Jean's death, because if 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:14.876 he knew Jean was cheating and he wanted to be 0:08:14.956 --> 0:08:19.636 with Verna. Those affairs would establish a powerful motive, not 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:24.036 just for him to kill Jean, but who knows, maybe 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:28.756 for him to kill Vernah's first husband too. So they 0:08:28.876 --> 0:08:32.996 might have been together before they were together. But then 0:08:33.036 --> 0:08:36.436 there was something else the detectives uncovered even more shocking 0:08:36.516 --> 0:08:41.636 to their church friends. When they got married, they weren't 0:08:41.676 --> 0:08:48.476 really married. Do you recall the married ceremony on the beach. 0:08:50.116 --> 0:08:53.436 This is a private investigator hired by Fred's defense talking 0:08:53.476 --> 0:08:57.276 to Verna's good friend Michelle Williams and her husband Dick. 0:08:58.076 --> 0:09:00.876 Were you aware when that ceremony was held that they 0:09:00.916 --> 0:09:06.196 were not legally married? That moving ceremony Christmas of nineteen 0:09:06.276 --> 0:09:09.356 seventy seven, when Fred and Verna dressed, the kids been 0:09:09.396 --> 0:09:13.636 matching outfits and they all exchanged rings, it wasn't actually 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:17.996 a wedding. Did that make any difference to you finding 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:23.396 that out two weeks ago they were not legally married 0:09:23.476 --> 0:09:27.156 during this ceremony, that it was a religious ceremony. Where 0:09:27.236 --> 0:09:29.196 I don't really understand the little thing. I just love 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:31.436 that out two weeks ago, a little late games. You know, 0:09:31.916 --> 0:09:34.996 John Hagar, the minister from the Methodist Church, had performed 0:09:34.996 --> 0:09:39.316 the ceremony, so the guests had assumed it was legit. Well, 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:41.996 John Hagar, it was the guy that was there on 0:09:42.076 --> 0:09:44.236 the beach that day, and he's the guy who married him. 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:46.236 So I don't know what the difference is. But apparently 0:09:47.796 --> 0:09:51.036 some of the people who have, you know, said some 0:09:51.156 --> 0:09:54.156 bad things about Fred and Verna, thought that that was 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:56.516 just awful, that they had been deceived and sewing and 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:58.996 so forth. So I don't well, had had they not 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:02.836 applied for mary license, They don't know what the circumstances were. 0:10:03.116 --> 0:10:06.276 I'm just asking the questions to try and find out. 0:10:07.516 --> 0:10:09.956 I'm not sure exactly what it means either, because he's 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:13.756 an ordained instrum. You know what it could have been financial, 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:21.796 That's all I could think. That was exactly it. Fred 0:10:21.916 --> 0:10:24.436 later wrote that the reason he and Verna hadn't married 0:10:24.516 --> 0:10:29.956 then was economic, because if she remarried, Verna would stop 0:10:30.076 --> 0:10:34.116 getting pension and social security benefits from her deceased husband Bill. 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:38.876 Fred and Verna kept it quiet, but in a handwritten will, 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:42.796 Verna spelled it all out. While I am not legally 0:10:42.876 --> 0:10:46.036 married to Frederick George Riller the second because of financial 0:10:46.116 --> 0:10:49.196 and tax purposes, she wrote, we are married in the 0:10:49.236 --> 0:10:55.716 eyes of God, and that is what really counts. If 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:58.916 she died, she continued, she intended for Fred to raise 0:10:58.996 --> 0:11:03.756 her children, Kim and Doug, and quote continue the finances 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:07.596 of my estate with no other appointed trustee or executor. 0:11:11.476 --> 0:11:14.196 The wedding that wasn't raised a red flag for the 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.476 Santa Barbara detectives, and Verna's will was one of the 0:11:17.556 --> 0:11:19.996 many items listed on the warrant they got in order 0:11:20.036 --> 0:11:23.556 to search the house on Sea Level Drive. But in 0:11:23.716 --> 0:11:27.396 that search they also found another suspicious document in a 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:33.996 desk drawer, a confidential record of another wedding, this one legal. 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:39.556 Fred and Verna had been married secretly by the same minister, 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:42.796 but it was more than two years after the wedding 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:46.516 on the beach. Their actual marriage date was July twelfth, 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:52.596 nineteen eighty, just five months before Verna's death. By the 0:11:52.716 --> 0:11:56.316 time Verna died, the couple's assets had been transferred to 0:11:56.436 --> 0:11:59.116 a trust they'd set up with help from Fred's old 0:11:59.196 --> 0:12:03.676 friend and lawyer, Bill Fairfield. The purpose of the Johnson 0:12:03.796 --> 0:12:07.036 Railer Trust, Fred said, was to prevent any gossip that 0:12:07.156 --> 0:12:10.676 might arise about financial gain should he or Verna die. 0:12:11.716 --> 0:12:14.196 The detectives found the flow chart for the trust in 0:12:14.276 --> 0:12:16.796 the silver case underneath a desk in the living room, 0:12:17.276 --> 0:12:20.676 along with a guide book for widows and what appeared 0:12:20.716 --> 0:12:23.516 to be Fred's diary of the day that Verna and 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:40.836 Doug drowned. The Santa Barbara detectives, Fred Ray and Claude 0:12:40.876 --> 0:12:44.676 Toller were talking to everyone in Malibu about every aspect 0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:48.956 of Fred's life with Verna. Verna's old friend Patty Lytell, 0:12:49.076 --> 0:12:52.036 told them that back when Fred and Verna first got together, 0:12:52.596 --> 0:12:56.476 Fred had pressured Verna to get married right away. Patty 0:12:56.516 --> 0:12:58.716 said Fred was trying to marry Verna just a couple 0:12:58.836 --> 0:13:01.916 months after Jean died, but Verna seemed to worry what 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:06.116 people would think. Patty had advised Verna to take it slow, 0:13:06.636 --> 0:13:10.196 maybe live with Fred. Awhile before deciding, and she told 0:13:10.316 --> 0:13:13.516 Verna what she was really worried about. She didn't think 0:13:13.596 --> 0:13:16.756 Fred loved her. She thought he was after her property 0:13:16.996 --> 0:13:21.356 on Broadbeach. Even though they hadn't gotten married right away, 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:26.036 Fred did figure out a financially beneficial solution. While he 0:13:26.156 --> 0:13:29.796 and Verna remained officially unmarried. She could continue to collect 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:33.876 her first husband's benefits, and then once they did marry officially, 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:38.116 their assets, including her house, would go into the trust 0:13:38.796 --> 0:13:42.436 of which Fred and Verna were co trustees, of which 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:47.716 Fred became the sole trustee once she died. When the 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:51.036 detectives had interviewed Fred back in January, they'd asked a 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:58.876 lot of questions about his finances that before a year 0:13:58.916 --> 0:14:05.236 and Verna gotten very pictured network before we gotten there. Yeah, 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.796 I'm probably in the order of half a million dollars 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:23.516 a piece. Hires her if in you work or with 0:14:23.756 --> 0:14:33.276 her money real estate? Two? What rules too? Was it right? 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:44.756 She had some houses? There's a housing broad Beach or 0:14:44.956 --> 0:14:48.196 any other houses that shield you know the lands? I 0:14:48.276 --> 0:14:52.236 have two other houses. I have a house and on Calpine, 0:14:53.676 --> 0:14:58.876 and then I have one I'm sorry, caliplines round here 0:14:58.916 --> 0:15:05.716 somewhere Pacific coast. Timer. If you own any other houses? 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:13.956 Have you heard? Brighten this one? Fred's relationship with Verna, 0:15:14.436 --> 0:15:18.356 their merger, he sometimes called it, began at a moment 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.676 when they had each inherited a modest fortune in real estate, 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:27.316 insurance money, and other benefits from their first spouses. When 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.716 Jean died, Fred received about seventy five thousand dollars in 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:34.476 insurance money. That's about three hundred and sixty thousand into 0:15:34.556 --> 0:15:38.836 day's dollars. Her social security benefits threw off the equivalent 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:42.236 of another thirty eight thousand in today's money every year 0:15:43.356 --> 0:15:46.516 when she was alive and talking about divorce. Jean and 0:15:46.596 --> 0:15:49.676 Fred owned two properties, a house in Oxnard and the 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:54.916 Kalpine House in Malibu, but with Jeanne gone, Fred became 0:15:54.916 --> 0:15:57.796 the sole owner at a time when Malibu home values 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:01.836 were spiking. The Oxnard house was also on the coast, 0:16:02.036 --> 0:16:04.716 in an up and coming neighborhood called the Silver Strand. 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:09.876 He ended up turning both houses into income properties. The 0:16:09.996 --> 0:16:14.236 insurance policy on Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, paid Verna 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:17.836 a substantial sum, about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 0:16:17.916 --> 0:16:21.676 in today's money. She also got his generous pension and 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:25.876 social security benefits, and she became the sole owner of 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:28.996 the property on Broad Beach Road, a duplex with a 0:16:29.076 --> 0:16:32.516 garage apartment right on the beach in a neighborhood Allie 0:16:32.596 --> 0:16:36.756 mcgrawl would soon be priced out of. Outside of the 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:41.156 rental properties, the family's income was a hodgepodge. Fred only 0:16:41.236 --> 0:16:43.716 earned about thirty thousand dollars a year from his job 0:16:43.756 --> 0:16:47.516 as an underwater engineer at Point Magoo. That's just over 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:50.676 one hundred thousand in today's money. And according to his 0:16:50.796 --> 0:16:55.076 colleague Denis O'Gorman, Fred's ambition had been in freefall ever 0:16:55.196 --> 0:17:00.476 since Jean died. Here's O'Gorman talking to an investigator. He 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:04.596 very seemed very despondent about things. It was philosophizing. For instance, 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:11.156 he started talking about how, really, you know, it should 0:17:11.156 --> 0:17:15.236 be a socialistic society. Anybody, everybody ought to be allowed 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:17.156 to do whatever it is that they want to do. 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:19.396 So if you decide you want to be a beach bump, 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:21.596 you get the same number of bucks as some guy 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:24.276 who wants to sit in office and do calculations all day. Okay, 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:25.716 no matter what you want to do, you ought to 0:17:25.756 --> 0:17:27.196 be able to do it. I means your life, and 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:29.476 it is so short. Want un enjoyed to the utmost. 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:31.316 You know, the perfect world if you have it on earth, 0:17:31.956 --> 0:17:36.116 and that's basically stopped working about it. And it seemed 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:37.876 like the more he got away with, the more he 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:41.436 wanted to get away with. And very job that Fred 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:44.236 had was given to somebody else, which really ticked us off. 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:46.196 I mean, we liked the work but now we're carrying 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:49.076 a hell of a workload, okay, more than our share. 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:51.716 And here's one man who's making more money than any 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:53.876 one of us because he's been there longer, and he's 0:17:53.996 --> 0:17:56.076 higher up on the scale, and he's not doing anything. 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:58.756 And not only is he not doing anything, but he's 0:17:58.796 --> 0:18:03.156 tying up the phones on personal calls. He's now dating 0:18:03.756 --> 0:18:07.636 Verna and he's making personal calls with his girlfriends to 0:18:07.756 --> 0:18:10.916 his liars for proper investments or whatever the hailop days, 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:15.876 you know, anywhere, their personal calls. And he has a 0:18:15.956 --> 0:18:18.196 smirk on his face like he knows that we know 0:18:18.396 --> 0:18:21.396 what's going on, and there's nothing anybody can do or 0:18:21.476 --> 0:18:23.956 wants to do about it. And by god, it's just 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:26.556 kissed my ass, you know, that kind of attitude, and 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:29.876 it's infuriating. Then, from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty 0:18:30.276 --> 0:18:34.036 Fred really stopped working. He'd injured his back, or so 0:18:34.196 --> 0:18:37.276 he said. On the polygraph, he admitted to fudging that 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.476 a bit. Fred did have a little side business building 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:44.076 redwood hot tubs. Here he is talking to an investigator 0:18:44.156 --> 0:18:50.756 in nineteen eighty one. You've actually blacked him, black him 0:18:50.756 --> 0:18:54.476 out of wood Jimmy is an installed for people who 0:18:54.476 --> 0:18:59.356 are mostly friends. It was not a lucratic situation. There 0:18:59.436 --> 0:19:01.916 was Verna's pay from her teaching job, which amounted to 0:19:01.996 --> 0:19:04.756 just a couple grand a year. They had the benefits 0:19:04.796 --> 0:19:07.876 from their first spouses and the income from their various properties. 0:19:08.836 --> 0:19:12.396 They're houses might have been worth a lot, but cash flow, 0:19:13.756 --> 0:19:18.236 how is this all working. In the spring of nineteen eighty, 0:19:18.436 --> 0:19:22.036 about nine months before Verna and dug drown, Fred and 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:26.836 Verna bought Perseverance, their fifty foot sailboat. The price tag 0:19:27.276 --> 0:19:31.076 around one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, five times Fred's 0:19:31.116 --> 0:19:34.476 annual salary at Point Magoo back when he was working 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:40.636 Perseverance was fancy. This is Dempsey Billy, an investigator for 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:43.996 the Santa Barbara Day's office. I talked to him recently. 0:19:44.636 --> 0:19:50.196 He remembered Perseverance very well. The sailboat that was there 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:53.596 in the venture at Harbor, and a really nice boat. 0:19:53.676 --> 0:19:55.756 They have a fireplace in it. Not too many sailboats 0:19:56.036 --> 0:20:00.476 that I've been around a fireplace in them. Fred's salvency 0:20:00.636 --> 0:20:03.916 was of great interest to the detectives. How was this 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:07.956 guy who made so little money leveling up in Malibu. 0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:11.196 By the time they went back and questioned Fred a 0:20:11.276 --> 0:20:15.276 second time on January twentieth, nineteen eighty one, they learned 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:18.716 a lot about his tumultuous relationship with Jean and that 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:22.316 he'd improved his financial position and certainly his real estate 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:26.356 holdings upon her death. So they had a few more 0:20:26.476 --> 0:20:33.196 questions for Fred. Did you and bury Heaven? Maridle from Yeah, 0:20:36.276 --> 0:20:43.956 how would you describe your relationship? You're very days, I 0:20:43.996 --> 0:20:50.396 would say, because good a relationship. Overall, anybody I've known 0:20:50.396 --> 0:21:01.116 them shared the same aspirations, gone through really a learning 0:21:01.236 --> 0:21:05.116 process for deciding what we really wanted to do with 0:21:05.276 --> 0:21:08.476 the children and in buying both and all the things. 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:22.036 We shared interests in the children and shared interest and 0:21:22.996 --> 0:21:26.356 thinks I would like to do friends with find families. 0:21:30.076 --> 0:21:35.876 I don't know what else. Were you having any financial 0:21:35.956 --> 0:21:41.796 fund or are you having the financial funds today? Friend 0:21:41.836 --> 0:21:46.236 says he wasn't underwater. Quite the contrary. When they were 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:49.716 saying that, oh you're you know I was broke, I said, well, 0:21:50.756 --> 0:21:53.636 the thing you didn't search when you tore up my 0:21:53.756 --> 0:21:56.756 house was you didn't go into the deep freeze. I 0:21:56.916 --> 0:22:00.636 had a faith in there. With thirty grand cash and 0:22:00.716 --> 0:22:05.036 about five thousand and travelers checks in it, and they 0:22:05.076 --> 0:22:07.716 were sort of stunned. And then they asked the detectively 0:22:07.956 --> 0:22:10.436 he had looked in this in the deep greeze, and 0:22:10.596 --> 0:22:14.156 he said, of course he hadn't. What was that for? 0:22:14.476 --> 0:22:16.956 And where did it come from? Ever since? I had 0:22:16.996 --> 0:22:20.436 been making payments on different things, and when I no 0:22:20.596 --> 0:22:23.436 longer made payments on them, I basically put some money 0:22:23.836 --> 0:22:28.276 aside in a safe, and I put it in our chest, 0:22:28.876 --> 0:22:34.436 deep freeze, under a bunch of frozen crates of orange juice. 0:22:35.316 --> 0:22:39.076 And that's where I kept our passports and you know, 0:22:39.156 --> 0:22:42.836 our papers and everything else in there. It was in 0:22:42.916 --> 0:22:48.076 the garage, and the prosecution went nuts when they found 0:22:48.116 --> 0:22:53.396 out that their super detectives hadn't found it. Thirty five 0:22:53.436 --> 0:22:57.076 thousand dollars is a hefty chunk of change. It's equivalent 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:00.716 to about one hundred and ten thousand today. Fred basically 0:23:00.796 --> 0:23:04.196 had a year's salary and his freezer underneath the orange juice. 0:23:05.316 --> 0:23:09.436 Why would anyone keep that much cash just lying around 0:23:09.476 --> 0:23:32.036 his house? To own a sailboat one as stunning as perseverance. 0:23:32.756 --> 0:23:37.436 It was Fred's dream come true. She was brand new 0:23:37.556 --> 0:23:42.356 and sleek toothpaste white with teak decks and trim. Everything 0:23:42.396 --> 0:23:47.116 about her down to the name was perfect. Her did 0:23:47.196 --> 0:23:49.876 not look at it. I don't think we could think 0:23:49.916 --> 0:23:54.156 of anything more apropos than that for us, for all 0:23:54.236 --> 0:23:57.596 the stuff we had gone through. You know, both of 0:23:57.676 --> 0:24:02.076 our lives were not not the not smooth. They had 0:24:02.116 --> 0:24:07.916 bumps all over them. So we both sort of felt that, 0:24:09.236 --> 0:24:13.476 having persevered, we were very fortunate to have found each other. 0:24:13.636 --> 0:24:16.316 And you know, I'll be doing well with our family. 0:24:18.636 --> 0:24:21.156 No longer would Fred be cleaning the bottom of Dick 0:24:21.196 --> 0:24:25.796 Felfoen's boat. He would take his boat and go anywhere 0:24:25.796 --> 0:24:30.076 he pleased. In fact, when detectives Ray and Tuller first 0:24:30.116 --> 0:24:32.876 came to see him, Fred dropped a big piece of 0:24:32.956 --> 0:24:36.596 news on them. He and Vernon and the kids had 0:24:36.636 --> 0:24:41.956 been about to set sail on a long track. They'd 0:24:41.996 --> 0:24:45.876 planned to be gone for months, maybe a year. We 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:52.316 were leaving in a smart We have been getting provisions, 0:24:53.436 --> 0:24:58.156 medical thing just just literally everything to get ready to go. 0:24:58.396 --> 0:25:03.076 We're going to Mexican, and we were trying to do 0:25:04.996 --> 0:25:07.716 a lot of documentation and the children each had a 0:25:07.796 --> 0:25:11.996 log book writing down all the things that they were 0:25:12.316 --> 0:25:17.036 feeling and seeing. Fun things right, there. The kids were 0:25:17.076 --> 0:25:19.956 going to journal and Fred would take photos and film. 0:25:20.756 --> 0:25:22.956 They were thinking about writing a book or making a 0:25:23.076 --> 0:25:26.676 movie about their adventure, the story of their trip told 0:25:26.716 --> 0:25:32.196 through the children's eyes. Aren't your Mexico crews or were 0:25:32.276 --> 0:25:37.316 you headed for to replays? No? Not really. We have 0:25:37.676 --> 0:25:39.676 picked up a bunch of charts and talked to them 0:25:39.716 --> 0:25:44.756 of people and our intensions were amazing. Just pop all along, 0:25:45.316 --> 0:25:47.156 keen some of them come back up into the golf 0:25:47.236 --> 0:25:53.316 and Californias and con. I'd read Steinbeck's book See Portez, 0:25:53.476 --> 0:25:56.756 and I gave her a copy of that. Did she 0:25:56.916 --> 0:26:01.356 have any particular theories or anything. Boy, Yeah, she really 0:26:01.396 --> 0:26:05.636 didn't like the shipping lands and didn't like fog very much. 0:26:06.396 --> 0:26:11.356 That was really, that was some big thing. Later Fred 0:26:11.436 --> 0:26:13.556 made some notes about how the Mexico plan had come 0:26:13.596 --> 0:26:18.036 to be quote sitting in hot tub September nineteen seventy nine, 0:26:18.916 --> 0:26:24.916 concern about raising the children in Malibu, dope peer groups, solution, 0:26:25.516 --> 0:26:29.476 pack up and go cruising. According to Fred, the trip 0:26:29.516 --> 0:26:32.996 to Mexico had motivated him and Verna to get organized. 0:26:33.796 --> 0:26:35.996 In the fall of nineteen eighty, right after he and 0:26:36.116 --> 0:26:40.676 Verna were legally married, they began some vigorous estate planning, 0:26:42.756 --> 0:26:47.956 they started buying insurance. Detective Ray asked Fred about this 0:26:48.236 --> 0:26:54.156 when questioning him about Verna and Doug. Were the birds insured, Yeah, 0:26:54.156 --> 0:27:02.076 our family was insure good company. Are they insured travelers? 0:27:04.796 --> 0:27:08.236 Was that in her name or your name or mousson? 0:27:08.756 --> 0:27:15.196 We had just set up a trust and gone through 0:27:18.876 --> 0:27:32.076 a state planning thing the policy route. I think that's 0:27:32.116 --> 0:27:37.476 probably in the safety deposit box. I'm not sure, okay, 0:27:39.236 --> 0:27:46.356 h M. How much was the policy spot? I think 0:27:47.716 --> 0:27:54.796 there's four hundred thousand on myself and Vernon and sixty 0:27:54.836 --> 0:28:00.316 thousand on each of the four children. That was almost it. 0:28:01.196 --> 0:28:05.236 There were also accidental death riders, worth an additional three 0:28:05.356 --> 0:28:08.556 hundred thousand for each of the adults and an additional 0:28:08.676 --> 0:28:13.036 sixty thousand for each of the kids. Doug's policy named 0:28:13.116 --> 0:28:18.196 his surviving siblings. Fred was the beneficiary of Vernas policy. 0:28:18.916 --> 0:28:21.716 That meant the payout from her death was seven hundred 0:28:21.756 --> 0:28:25.356 thousand dollars in nineteen eighty one, money, which is about 0:28:25.636 --> 0:28:35.556 two point two five million today. The detectives wanted more 0:28:35.676 --> 0:28:39.276 details because they said the insurance company would be calling 0:28:39.356 --> 0:28:43.276 them in the course of processing the claims. They're pretty 0:28:43.316 --> 0:28:47.316 patient for a few works for two words. Want. They 0:28:47.436 --> 0:28:50.196 started they started getting pressure from me to settle in 0:28:50.836 --> 0:28:55.636 and then or your family or whoever your beneficiary at 0:28:55.636 --> 0:28:58.076 the trust I take would be you and the kids. 0:28:59.036 --> 0:29:01.556 I don't think so. I think somehow the trust it is, 0:29:01.636 --> 0:29:06.356 but I don't I don't recall the mechanics today you 0:29:06.476 --> 0:29:10.556 take the trust to all the new I think that 0:29:10.676 --> 0:29:13.956 the trust is a beneficiary as opposed to either of 0:29:14.076 --> 0:29:17.036 us or in other words, if something happens, everything goes 0:29:17.076 --> 0:29:22.036 into the trust. Fred said he and the kids weren't 0:29:22.036 --> 0:29:27.236 the beneficiaries the Johnson Railer Trust was that was a 0:29:27.316 --> 0:29:30.956 little slippery. The funds from the insurance would maybe end 0:29:31.036 --> 0:29:33.916 up in the trust like any other family asset, but 0:29:34.236 --> 0:29:38.516 Fred was named. On Verna's policy, the money would be his. 0:29:40.756 --> 0:29:44.836 Fred also didn't say that he was the trustee. If 0:29:44.876 --> 0:29:48.516 the insurance money flowed into the trust, he would control it. 0:29:49.836 --> 0:29:52.396 It was right around then that Fred decided he had 0:29:52.436 --> 0:29:56.556 said enough. He needed to talk to his friend Bill Fairfield, 0:29:56.876 --> 0:29:59.356 the lawyer who'd advised him and Verna on the trust. 0:30:01.876 --> 0:30:05.396 I guess I want everything to be said. I guess 0:30:05.436 --> 0:30:08.796 it's settled. As much information as I can give you 0:30:09.636 --> 0:30:14.276 and at the same time, I know he's going to 0:30:14.316 --> 0:30:17.636 breaking my arm. If I the qube just do everything 0:30:17.956 --> 0:30:23.996 about talking to him, I'm not spoken. The detectives weren't 0:30:24.036 --> 0:30:26.636 buying the Mexico trip as a reason for taking out 0:30:26.756 --> 0:30:32.036 huge insurance policies. It reeked of planning, like Fred was 0:30:32.116 --> 0:30:34.756 thinking about the murders and the ways he'd cover them up, 0:30:35.716 --> 0:30:38.916 and the insurance. Well, that looked like another pattern in 0:30:38.996 --> 0:30:43.516 his life. Because Fred, the detectives were learning, knew a 0:30:43.596 --> 0:30:48.276