1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A week after his arrest, in early April 1981, 2 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:40,186 Speaker 1: Fred took a polygraph exam. Surprisingly, it wasn't ordered by 3 00:00:40,236 --> 00:00:44,806 Speaker 1: law enforcement. It was ordered by Fred's defense team. Polygraph 4 00:00:44,846 --> 00:00:49,346 Speaker 1: tests are notoriously unreliable. But Fred's lawyers were hoping that 5 00:00:49,386 --> 00:00:54,066 Speaker 1: a successful polygraph would help prove his innocence. There was 6 00:00:54,086 --> 00:00:56,866 Speaker 1: a lot to go over. Fred had entered a plea 7 00:00:56,906 --> 00:01:00,526 Speaker 1: of not guilty. But the second autopsy showed trauma to 8 00:01:00,566 --> 00:01:04,086 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug. Bruises and marks that seemed to bolster 9 00:01:04,126 --> 00:01:07,836 Speaker 1: the cops' working theory. That Fred had killed them. 10 00:01:08,746 --> 00:01:09,336 Speaker 2: Violently. 11 00:01:10,816 --> 00:01:13,896 Speaker 1: The polygraph was meant to bring clarity. It was a 12 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:20,026 Speaker 1: pass-fail test. Fred was either a liar, or he wasn't. 13 00:01:20,046 --> 00:01:25,246 Speaker 2: If you didn't have any connection with their death, other 14 00:01:25,286 --> 00:01:28,646 Speaker 2: than accidental, then believe me, you'll pass upon death. 15 00:01:29,366 --> 00:01:32,816 Speaker 1: This is the polygraph examiner explaining the process to Fred. 16 00:01:33,336 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 3: I have no idea if you're going to be lying 17 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:36,096 Speaker 3: to me. 18 00:01:36,236 --> 00:01:37,076 Speaker 2: Or telling me the truth. 19 00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:39,076 Speaker 4: But after we get into this for a couple hours, 20 00:01:39,116 --> 00:01:39,936 Speaker 4: you're going to. 21 00:01:39,816 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 5: Find out I can tell when you lied. 22 00:01:49,616 --> 00:01:53,536 Speaker 1: After the examiner had established Fred's baseline, how he reacted 23 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: to questions of various kinds, he started asking him about Verna, Doug, 24 00:01:58,256 --> 00:02:02,866 Speaker 1: and what happened on January 2, 1981, the day they drowned. 25 00:02:04,146 --> 00:02:05,766 Speaker 5: Did Verna have on one jacket? 26 00:02:06,186 --> 00:02:07,006 Speaker 2: Did you have on one? 27 00:02:07,806 --> 00:02:07,966 Speaker 6: No. 28 00:02:08,006 --> 00:02:09,346 Speaker 7: Because I understand she's a pretty good swimmer, huh? 29 00:02:10,326 --> 00:02:12,526 Speaker 5: No, that's a bunch of bullshit. That's a bunch of bullshit? 30 00:02:12,566 --> 00:02:13,126 Speaker 8: How about Doug? 31 00:02:13,226 --> 00:02:14,266 Speaker 2: The only time. 32 00:02:14,086 --> 00:02:16,746 Speaker 5: That Vern has been swimming since we bought the boat 33 00:02:17,126 --> 00:02:20,106 Speaker 5: and bought our house in Malibu, I think when we 34 00:02:20,146 --> 00:02:22,266 Speaker 5: went to my parents' house, she went in the pool, 35 00:02:23,046 --> 00:02:24,826 Speaker 5: but she was really not a good swimmer. 36 00:02:25,686 --> 00:02:27,966 Speaker 2: How'd you get along with her? 37 00:02:29,026 --> 00:02:31,326 Speaker 9: Was everything okay in the bedroom? 38 00:02:32,856 --> 00:02:34,256 Speaker 8: Was everything okay socially? 39 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,296 Speaker 5: Actually, everything was terrific in the bedroom. 40 00:02:37,316 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 2: Okay. 41 00:02:38,936 --> 00:02:41,736 Speaker 5: How about between the three of you, Doug. 42 00:02:41,996 --> 00:02:42,956 Speaker 10: Yourself, and Verna? 43 00:02:43,236 --> 00:02:50,126 Speaker 5: What was your relationship like? Good, bad, or indifferent? I 44 00:02:50,166 --> 00:02:52,566 Speaker 5: would say it would be good with a qualification. 45 00:02:53,266 --> 00:02:57,206 Speaker 1: The qualification was that they disagreed about how to handle Doug. 46 00:02:57,226 --> 00:02:58,686 Speaker 10: If there were going to. 47 00:02:58,566 --> 00:03:02,806 Speaker 5: Be points of concern between Verna and I about the children, 48 00:03:02,846 --> 00:03:03,426 Speaker 5: that's where. 49 00:03:03,286 --> 00:03:04,016 Speaker 2: It normally came from. 50 00:03:05,726 --> 00:03:08,136 Speaker 1: The examiner flipped the tape over to the other side, 51 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:11,176 Speaker 1: then continued asking Fred about the day of the drownings. 52 00:03:11,716 --> 00:03:42,106 Speaker 9: Fred had started getting emotional. Did you think if you 53 00:03:42,126 --> 00:03:42,966 Speaker 9: stopped you would have died? 54 00:03:42,986 --> 00:03:51,486 Speaker 2: I just knew that I was wearing down. 55 00:03:51,506 --> 00:03:55,426 Speaker 11: I've been a diver for a long time. 56 00:03:55,446 --> 00:03:57,396 Speaker 2: I know when I'm tired underwater. 57 00:03:57,456 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 9: I know when my breathing is screwed up and I 58 00:03:59,436 --> 00:04:02,416 Speaker 9: can't get my breath. And all those things were going on. 59 00:04:02,896 --> 00:04:06,456 Speaker 9: I was taking on water. It just was all turned 60 00:04:06,496 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 9: to shit. 61 00:04:10,506 --> 00:04:14,386 Speaker 1: The exam lasted over an hour. Near the end, Fred 62 00:04:14,426 --> 00:04:16,826 Speaker 1: told the examiner he wasn't feeling so good. 63 00:04:16,846 --> 00:04:25,206 Speaker 9: Awful, Fred said. A few minutes. 64 00:04:23,146 --> 00:04:44,976 Speaker 1: Later, The tape ends. When I asked Fred the result 65 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:48,736 Speaker 1: of the polygraph, he told me it was inconclusive. He 66 00:04:48,776 --> 00:04:52,176 Speaker 1: didn't pass or fail, he said, and the polygraph was 67 00:04:52,256 --> 00:04:55,936 Speaker 1: never a factor in the trial. But there was one 68 00:04:56,016 --> 00:04:58,976 Speaker 1: question the examiner asked that seemed to come almost out 69 00:04:58,996 --> 00:05:03,336 Speaker 1: of the blue. It was abstract and vague, and yet 70 00:05:04,176 --> 00:05:07,526 Speaker 1: it drove right to the heart of the investigation. right 71 00:05:07,566 --> 00:05:10,186 Speaker 1: to the heart of Fred's motivations in life. 72 00:05:11,486 --> 00:05:14,646 Speaker 5: Which do you love the most, love or money? 73 00:05:16,216 --> 00:05:20,156 Speaker 1: That one, Fred didn't answer right away. And when he did, 74 00:05:20,716 --> 00:05:25,056 Speaker 1: his voice had the controlled, deliberate quality of a valedictorian 75 00:05:25,376 --> 00:05:26,396 Speaker 1: on graduation day. 76 00:05:26,416 --> 00:05:31,306 Speaker 2: I think love is the most. 77 00:05:32,746 --> 00:05:33,666 Speaker 8: Important thing for me. 78 00:05:33,886 --> 00:05:37,666 Speaker 1: But the question of money... and how badly Fred needed it. 79 00:05:38,786 --> 00:05:41,126 Speaker 1: That was exactly what law enforcement had been trying to 80 00:05:41,166 --> 00:05:48,496 Speaker 1: figure out. I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. 81 00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:53,576 Speaker 12: Lost Hills. 82 00:06:15,276 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 1: Episode 7, Love or Money. Fred and Verna were supposed 83 00:06:23,416 --> 00:06:26,856 Speaker 1: to be a love story. They'd both overcome the tragic, 84 00:06:27,056 --> 00:06:30,666 Speaker 1: untimely deaths of their first spouses to find love again. 85 00:06:31,616 --> 00:06:36,606 Speaker 1: But there were some irregularities in the origin story. One, 86 00:06:37,526 --> 00:06:42,246 Speaker 1: it seemed like maybe they'd gotten together before Jean died. 87 00:06:44,386 --> 00:06:47,666 Speaker 1: When the Santa Barbara detectives asked around about Fred and Verna, 88 00:06:48,026 --> 00:06:51,766 Speaker 1: they heard one thing, loud and clear. Whether you approved 89 00:06:51,806 --> 00:06:56,006 Speaker 1: or you didn't, it had been a whirlwind romance. In 90 00:06:56,066 --> 00:06:58,706 Speaker 1: handwritten notes Fred made around the time of his trial, 91 00:06:59,186 --> 00:07:01,466 Speaker 1: he laid out the way in which his relationship with 92 00:07:01,546 --> 00:07:08,826 Speaker 1: Verna changed. Babysitter, friend, lover, wife. At the line for lover, 93 00:07:09,096 --> 00:07:10,436 Speaker 1: he writes, D.A. 94 00:07:10,496 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 4: Date. 95 00:07:11,686 --> 00:07:13,746 Speaker 1: As if he's trying to get a handle on what 96 00:07:13,846 --> 00:07:18,546 Speaker 1: law enforcement knew. That's because the detectives had started to 97 00:07:18,586 --> 00:07:22,336 Speaker 1: suspect that Fred and Verna were having an affair before 98 00:07:22,436 --> 00:07:27,936 Speaker 1: Gene died. Verna's friend and confidant, Patty Lytel, had told 99 00:07:27,976 --> 00:07:30,896 Speaker 1: them as much. And when Fred's investigator went to talk 100 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,496 Speaker 1: to her, she doubled down. Here she is, talking to 101 00:07:34,536 --> 00:07:35,176 Speaker 1: the investigator. 102 00:07:35,196 --> 00:07:38,556 Speaker 2: I didn't ask her if she was having an affair 103 00:07:38,576 --> 00:07:41,576 Speaker 2: with him. She told me she was. She told you? 104 00:07:52,746 --> 00:07:54,686 Speaker 1: That would be a problem were it ever to come 105 00:07:54,746 --> 00:07:59,026 Speaker 1: out in court. Questioned by the detectives, Fred's sailing buddy, 106 00:07:59,126 --> 00:08:03,146 Speaker 1: Dick Felthoen, admitted to his affair with Jean. But Fred 107 00:08:03,306 --> 00:08:06,326 Speaker 1: always denied knowing about it. Even to this day, he 108 00:08:06,346 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: denies it. And he denies he and Verna got together 109 00:08:09,766 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: before Jean's death. because if he knew Jean was cheating 110 00:08:14,216 --> 00:08:17,236 Speaker 1: and he wanted to be with Verna, those affairs would 111 00:08:17,256 --> 00:08:21,356 Speaker 1: establish a powerful motive, not just for him to kill Jean, 112 00:08:21,856 --> 00:08:26,446 Speaker 1: but who knows, maybe for him to kill Verna's first husband, too. 113 00:08:28,006 --> 00:08:31,586 Speaker 1: So they might have been together before they were together. 114 00:08:32,806 --> 00:08:35,826 Speaker 1: But then there was something else the detectives uncovered, even 115 00:08:35,866 --> 00:08:39,896 Speaker 1: more shocking to their church friends. When they got married, 116 00:08:41,246 --> 00:08:42,326 Speaker 1: They weren't really married. 117 00:08:42,346 --> 00:08:49,026 Speaker 12: Do you recall the marriage ceremony on the beach? 118 00:08:50,166 --> 00:08:53,506 Speaker 1: This is a private investigator hired by Fred's defense, talking 119 00:08:53,546 --> 00:08:57,336 Speaker 1: to Verna's good friend, Michelle Williams, and her husband, Dick. 120 00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:00,976 Speaker 12: Were you aware when that ceremony was held that they 121 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:02,016 Speaker 12: were not legally married? 122 00:09:03,976 --> 00:09:08,386 Speaker 1: That moving ceremony, Christmas of 1977, when Fred and Verna 123 00:09:08,446 --> 00:09:10,586 Speaker 1: dressed the kids up in matching outfits and they all 124 00:09:10,626 --> 00:09:14,166 Speaker 1: exchanged rings, it wasn't actually a wedding. 125 00:09:15,746 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 12: John Hager, the minister from the Methodist Church. 126 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:19,036 Speaker 2: Had performed the ceremony. 127 00:09:36,206 --> 00:09:38,326 Speaker 1: So the guests had assumed it was legit. 128 00:09:39,186 --> 00:09:42,106 Speaker 12: Well, John Hager was the guy that was there on 129 00:09:42,126 --> 00:09:44,166 Speaker 12: the beach that day, and he's the guy who married him, 130 00:09:44,246 --> 00:09:46,266 Speaker 12: so I don't know what the difference is. But apparently, 131 00:09:47,846 --> 00:09:51,146 Speaker 12: some of the people who have, you know, said some 132 00:09:51,166 --> 00:09:54,186 Speaker 12: bad things about Fred and Verna thought that that was 133 00:09:54,206 --> 00:09:56,606 Speaker 12: just awful, that they'd been deceived and so on and 134 00:09:56,626 --> 00:09:59,966 Speaker 12: so forth. So I don't... Well, had they not applied 135 00:09:59,986 --> 00:10:02,866 Speaker 12: for married licenses? I don't know what the circumstances were. 136 00:10:03,186 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 2: I'm just asking the questions... to try and find out. 137 00:10:07,846 --> 00:10:09,086 Speaker 2: I'm not sure exactly what it means. 138 00:10:09,246 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 6: Either because he's an ordained minister and, you know, it 139 00:10:12,736 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 6: could have been financial. That's all I could think of. 140 00:10:19,776 --> 00:10:23,056 Speaker 1: That was exactly it. Fred later wrote that the reason 141 00:10:23,116 --> 00:10:27,896 Speaker 1: he and Verna hadn't married then was economic. Because if 142 00:10:27,976 --> 00:10:31,946 Speaker 1: she remarried, Verna would stop getting pension and social security 143 00:10:31,986 --> 00:10:36,506 Speaker 1: benefits from her deceased husband, Bill. Fred and Verna kept 144 00:10:36,566 --> 00:10:40,246 Speaker 1: it quiet, but in a handwritten will, Verna spelled it 145 00:10:40,286 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: all out. While I am not legally married to Frederick 146 00:10:43,856 --> 00:10:47,896 Speaker 1: George Raylor II because of financial and tax purposes, she wrote, 147 00:10:48,496 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 1: we are married in the eyes of God, and that 148 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:57,456 Speaker 1: is what really counts. If she died, she continued, she 149 00:10:57,496 --> 00:11:03,786 Speaker 1: intended for Fred to raise her children, Kim and Doug, and, quote, 150 00:11:04,286 --> 00:11:14,266 Speaker 1: The wedding that wasn't raised a red flag for the 151 00:11:14,286 --> 00:11:17,546 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara detectives, and Verna's will was one of the 152 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:20,016 Speaker 1: many items listed on the warrant they got in order 153 00:11:20,056 --> 00:11:24,316 Speaker 1: to search the house on C-Level Drive. But in that search, 154 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:28,156 Speaker 1: they also found another suspicious document in a desk drawer, 155 00:11:29,276 --> 00:11:35,856 Speaker 1: a confidential record of another wedding, this one legal. Fred 156 00:11:35,896 --> 00:11:39,716 Speaker 1: and Verna had been married secretly by the same minister, 157 00:11:40,656 --> 00:11:42,776 Speaker 1: but it was more than two years after the wedding 158 00:11:42,826 --> 00:11:46,176 Speaker 1: on the beach. Their actual marriage date was July 12, 1980, 159 00:11:46,146 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 1: just five months before Verna's death. By the time Verna died, 160 00:11:54,376 --> 00:11:57,336 Speaker 1: the couple's assets had been transferred to a trust they'd 161 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:00,076 Speaker 1: set up with help from Fred's old friend and lawyer, 162 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:05,256 Speaker 1: Bill Fairfield. The purpose of the Johnson-Raylor Trust, Fred said, 163 00:12:05,576 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: was to prevent any gossip that might arise about financial 164 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:12,966 Speaker 1: gain should he or Verna die. The detectives found the 165 00:12:13,006 --> 00:12:15,786 Speaker 1: flowchart for the trust in the silver case underneath a 166 00:12:15,806 --> 00:12:19,326 Speaker 1: desk in the living room, along with a guidebook for widows. 167 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:22,756 Speaker 1: and what appeared to be Fred's diary of the day 168 00:12:22,816 --> 00:12:39,996 Speaker 1: that Verna and Doug drowned. The Santa Barbara detectives, Fred 169 00:12:40,056 --> 00:12:43,416 Speaker 1: Ray and Claude Tuller, were talking to everyone in Malibu 170 00:12:43,576 --> 00:12:48,186 Speaker 1: about every aspect of Fred's life with Verna. Verna's old friend, 171 00:12:48,236 --> 00:12:51,266 Speaker 1: Patty Lytel, told them that Back when Fred and Verna 172 00:12:51,286 --> 00:12:54,526 Speaker 1: first got together, Fred had pressured Verna to get married 173 00:12:54,646 --> 00:12:58,106 Speaker 1: right away. Patty said Fred was trying to marry Verna 174 00:12:58,126 --> 00:13:01,406 Speaker 1: just a couple months after Gene died. But Verna seemed 175 00:13:01,446 --> 00:13:05,226 Speaker 1: to worry what people would think. Patty had advised Verna 176 00:13:05,246 --> 00:13:07,966 Speaker 1: to take it slow, maybe live with Fred a while 177 00:13:08,026 --> 00:13:11,576 Speaker 1: before deciding. And she told Verna what she was really 178 00:13:11,626 --> 00:13:15,536 Speaker 1: worried about. She didn't think Fred loved her. She thought 179 00:13:15,576 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: he was after her property on Broad Beach. Even though 180 00:13:19,816 --> 00:13:22,916 Speaker 1: they hadn't gotten married right away, Fred did figure out 181 00:13:23,016 --> 00:13:28,216 Speaker 1: a financially beneficial solution. While he and Verna remained officially unmarried, 182 00:13:28,616 --> 00:13:32,056 Speaker 1: she could continue to collect her first husband's benefits. And 183 00:13:32,096 --> 00:13:36,706 Speaker 1: then once they did marry officially, their assets, including her house, 184 00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:40,186 Speaker 1: would go into the trust, of which Fred and Verna 185 00:13:40,266 --> 00:13:45,346 Speaker 1: were co-trustees, of which Fred became the sole trustee once 186 00:13:45,406 --> 00:13:50,136 Speaker 1: she died. When the detectives had interviewed Fred back in January, 187 00:13:50,556 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: they'd asked a lot of questions about his finances. 188 00:13:54,396 --> 00:13:59,936 Speaker 7: What would you say, before you and Verna got married, 189 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,356 Speaker 7: that your individual. 190 00:14:01,776 --> 00:14:13,286 Speaker 2: Net worth was? Before we got married? Yeah. Probably in 191 00:14:13,306 --> 00:14:20,316 Speaker 2: the order of a half a million dollars apiece. How 192 00:14:20,336 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 2: is her, in what form was her money? Real estate. 193 00:14:27,016 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 2: What real estate was it? She has some houses. There's 194 00:14:37,816 --> 00:14:45,856 Speaker 2: a house in Broad Beach. Are there any other houses 195 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,616 Speaker 2: that she owns? Not that she owns. I have two 196 00:14:48,676 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 2: other houses. I have a house on Calpine, and then 197 00:14:54,096 --> 00:14:59,926 Speaker 2: I have one on Oxford. Calpine is around here somewhere? Yeah, 198 00:15:00,506 --> 00:15:05,766 Speaker 2: off Pacific Coast, I would. Do you own any other houses? 199 00:15:07,946 --> 00:15:09,936 Speaker 2: Have you ever been in this one? 200 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:16,816 Speaker 1: Fred's relationship with Verna, their merger, he sometimes called it, 201 00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:19,736 Speaker 1: began at a moment when they had each inherited a 202 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:23,696 Speaker 1: modest fortune in real estate, insurance money, and other benefits 203 00:15:23,996 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 1: from their first spouses. When Jean died, Fred received about 204 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:35,216 Speaker 1: $ 75, 000 in insurance money. That's about $ 360, 000 in today's dollars. 205 00:15:36,106 --> 00:15:39,446 Speaker 1: Her Social Security benefits threw off the equivalent of another 206 00:15:39,446 --> 00:15:44,456 Speaker 1: $ 38, 000 in today's money every year. When she was alive 207 00:15:44,596 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: and talking about divorce, Jean and Fred owned two properties, 208 00:15:48,456 --> 00:15:51,336 Speaker 1: a house in Oxnard and the Calpine House in Malibu. 209 00:15:52,676 --> 00:15:56,166 Speaker 1: But with Jean gone, Fred became the sole owner, at 210 00:15:56,206 --> 00:16:00,406 Speaker 1: a time when Malibu home values were spiking. The Oxnard 211 00:16:00,426 --> 00:16:03,406 Speaker 1: house was also on the coast, in an up-and-coming neighborhood 212 00:16:03,486 --> 00:16:07,306 Speaker 1: called the Silver Strand. He ended up turning both houses 213 00:16:07,526 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 1: into income properties. The insurance policy on Verna's first husband, 214 00:16:12,696 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: Bill Johnson, paid Verna a substantial sum, about $ 250, 000 in 215 00:16:17,206 --> 00:16:22,186 Speaker 1: today's money. She also got his generous pension and Social 216 00:16:22,226 --> 00:16:26,086 Speaker 1: Security benefits. And she became the sole owner of the 217 00:16:26,126 --> 00:16:29,446 Speaker 1: property on Broad Beach Road, a duplex with a garage 218 00:16:29,486 --> 00:16:33,086 Speaker 1: apartment right on the beach, in a neighborhood Allie McGraw 219 00:16:33,106 --> 00:16:37,666 Speaker 1: would soon be priced out of. Outside of the rental properties, 220 00:16:37,786 --> 00:16:42,666 Speaker 1: the family's income was a hodgepodge. Fred only earned about 221 00:16:42,666 --> 00:16:45,146 Speaker 1: $ 30, 000 a year from his job as an underwater engineer 222 00:16:45,366 --> 00:16:49,166 Speaker 1: at Point Mugu. That's just over $ 100, 000 in today's money. 223 00:16:49,946 --> 00:16:53,586 Speaker 1: And according to his colleague Dennis O'Gorman, Fred's ambition had 224 00:16:53,606 --> 00:16:57,746 Speaker 1: been in free fall ever since Gene died. Here's O'Gorman 225 00:16:57,936 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 1: talking to an investigator. 226 00:16:59,006 --> 00:17:04,816 Speaker 6: He seemed very despondent about things. He was philosophizing, for instance, about. 227 00:17:06,186 --> 00:17:11,306 Speaker 2: He started talking about how really it should be. 228 00:17:11,246 --> 00:17:15,536 Speaker 6: A socialistic society. Everybody ought to be allowed to do 229 00:17:15,616 --> 00:17:17,776 Speaker 6: whatever it is that they want to do. So if 230 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:19,976 Speaker 6: you decide you want to be a beach bum, you 231 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:21,816 Speaker 6: get the same number of bucks as some guy who 232 00:17:21,836 --> 00:17:23,936 Speaker 6: wants to sit in an office and do calculations all day. 233 00:17:24,436 --> 00:17:25,736 Speaker 6: No matter what you want to do, you ought to 234 00:17:25,776 --> 00:17:27,376 Speaker 6: be able to do it. It's your life, and it's 235 00:17:27,396 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 6: so short. Why not enjoy it to the utmost? The 236 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:31,276 Speaker 6: perfect world, if you have it on Earth. 237 00:17:32,336 --> 00:17:34,346 Speaker 1: Fred basically stopped working. 238 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 6: And it seemed like the more he got away with, 239 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:40,756 Speaker 6: the more he wanted to get away with. And every 240 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:43,296 Speaker 6: job that Fred had was given to somebody else, which 241 00:17:43,376 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 6: really ticked us off. I mean, we liked the work, 242 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:48,136 Speaker 6: but now we're carrying a hell of a workload, okay, 243 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 6: more than our share. And here's one man who's making 244 00:17:50,736 --> 00:17:53,136 Speaker 6: more money than any one of us because he's been 245 00:17:53,156 --> 00:17:55,136 Speaker 6: there longer and he's higher up on the scale. And 246 00:17:55,156 --> 00:17:57,656 Speaker 6: he's not doing anything. And not only is he not 247 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 6: doing anything, but he's tying up the phones on personal calls. 248 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:06,696 Speaker 6: He's now dating Verna. And he's making personal calls to 249 00:18:06,716 --> 00:18:10,216 Speaker 6: his girlfriends, to his liars for property investments or whatever 250 00:18:10,256 --> 00:18:12,576 Speaker 6: the hell it is. You know, anyway, they're personal calls. 251 00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:17,456 Speaker 6: And he has a smirk on his face like he 252 00:18:17,496 --> 00:18:20,256 Speaker 6: knows that we know what's going on and there's nothing 253 00:18:20,296 --> 00:18:22,936 Speaker 6: anybody can do or wants to do about it. And 254 00:18:23,016 --> 00:18:25,356 Speaker 6: by God, it's just kiss my ass, you know, that 255 00:18:25,396 --> 00:18:27,296 Speaker 6: kind of attitude. Then, from 1978 to 1980, Fred really 256 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:27,736 Speaker 6: stopped working. 257 00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:36,176 Speaker 1: He'd injured his back, or so he said. On the polygraph, 258 00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 1: he admitted to fudging that a bit. Fred did have 259 00:18:39,056 --> 00:18:42,616 Speaker 1: a little side business, building redwood hot tubs. Here he 260 00:18:42,736 --> 00:18:46,886 Speaker 1: is talking to an investigator in 1981. There was Verna's. 261 00:18:45,966 --> 00:18:50,366 Speaker 2: Pay from her teaching job, which amounted to just a 262 00:18:50,386 --> 00:18:51,206 Speaker 2: couple grand a year. 263 00:19:03,986 --> 00:19:06,286 Speaker 1: They had the benefits from their first spouses and the 264 00:19:06,376 --> 00:19:09,976 Speaker 1: income from their various properties. Their houses might have been 265 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:15,136 Speaker 1: worth a lot, but cash flow? How was this all working? 266 00:19:16,816 --> 00:19:20,256 Speaker 1: In the spring of 1980, about nine months before Verna 267 00:19:20,316 --> 00:19:25,476 Speaker 1: and Doug drowned, Fred and Verna bought Perseverance, their 50-foot sailboat. 268 00:19:26,176 --> 00:19:28,416 Speaker 1: The price tag? Around $ 150, 000, five times Fred's annual salary 269 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:37,186 Speaker 1: at Point Magoo. back when he was working. Perseverance was fancy. 270 00:19:38,186 --> 00:19:41,446 Speaker 1: This is Dempsey Billy, an investigator for the Santa Barbara 271 00:19:41,466 --> 00:19:46,106 Speaker 1: DA's office. I talked to him recently. He remembered Perseverance 272 00:19:46,406 --> 00:19:47,086 Speaker 1: very well. 273 00:19:47,106 --> 00:19:51,496 Speaker 13: There was a sailboat that was there in Ventura Harbor, 274 00:19:51,576 --> 00:19:53,616 Speaker 13: and it was a really nice boat. 275 00:19:53,636 --> 00:19:55,736 Speaker 2: It had a fireplace in it. Not too many sailboats 276 00:19:56,056 --> 00:19:58,376 Speaker 2: that I've been around have a fireplace in them. 277 00:19:59,616 --> 00:20:03,656 Speaker 1: Fred's solvency was of great interest to the detectives. How 278 00:20:03,716 --> 00:20:06,756 Speaker 1: was this guy who made so little money leveling up 279 00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:10,826 Speaker 1: in Malibu? By the time they went back and questioned 280 00:20:10,886 --> 00:20:15,286 Speaker 1: Fred a second time, on January 20, 1981, they'd learned 281 00:20:15,326 --> 00:20:18,696 Speaker 1: a lot about his tumultuous relationship with Jean and and 282 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:22,016 Speaker 1: that he'd improved his financial position, and certainly his real 283 00:20:22,056 --> 00:20:26,206 Speaker 1: estate holdings, upon her death. So, they had a few 284 00:20:26,246 --> 00:20:27,446 Speaker 1: more questions for Fred. 285 00:20:29,666 --> 00:20:36,256 Speaker 2: Did you and Bernie have any marital problems? No. How 286 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 2: would you describe your relationship, your marriage? 287 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:50,526 Speaker 11: I would say we had good relationships. Overall, anybody I've known, 288 00:20:52,226 --> 00:21:00,766 Speaker 11: we share the same aspirations. We've gone through really a 289 00:21:00,806 --> 00:21:04,986 Speaker 11: learning process for deciding what we really want to do 290 00:21:05,106 --> 00:21:08,496 Speaker 11: with the children and buying the boat and all those things. 291 00:21:15,416 --> 00:21:18,546 Speaker 2: We've shared interests in the children. We shared. 292 00:21:21,126 --> 00:21:25,166 Speaker 11: Interests with each other, things that we liked to do, friends, 293 00:21:25,246 --> 00:21:26,186 Speaker 11: we wanted friends. 294 00:21:26,206 --> 00:21:31,066 Speaker 3: I don't really know. 295 00:21:34,006 --> 00:21:34,376 Speaker 2: What else. 296 00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:37,416 Speaker 7: Were you having any financial problems, or are you having 297 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 7: any financial problems? 298 00:21:41,176 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: Today, Fred says he wasn't underwater. Quite the contrary. 299 00:21:45,816 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 8: When they were saying that, oh, you know, I was broke, 300 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:53,136 Speaker 8: I said, well, the thing you didn't search when you 301 00:21:53,176 --> 00:21:55,946 Speaker 8: tore up my house was you didn't go into the 302 00:21:55,986 --> 00:21:59,066 Speaker 8: deep freeze. I had a safe in there with 30 303 00:21:59,066 --> 00:22:03,626 Speaker 8: grand cash and about 5,000 in traveler's checks in it. 304 00:22:04,786 --> 00:22:06,126 Speaker 8: And they were sort of stunned. 305 00:22:06,206 --> 00:22:08,506 Speaker 10: And then they asked the detective if he had looked 306 00:22:08,586 --> 00:22:11,766 Speaker 10: in the deep freeze. And he said, of course, he hadn't. 307 00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 1: What was that for and where did it come from? 308 00:22:16,166 --> 00:22:19,446 Speaker 3: Ever since I've been making payments on different things and 309 00:22:19,946 --> 00:22:22,806 Speaker 3: when I no longer made payments on them, I basically 310 00:22:22,826 --> 00:22:27,046 Speaker 3: put some money aside in a safe and I put 311 00:22:27,106 --> 00:22:30,676 Speaker 3: it in our chest deep freeze under a bunch of 312 00:22:31,496 --> 00:22:37,176 Speaker 3: frozen crates of orange juice. And that's where I kept 313 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:40,686 Speaker 3: our passports and, you know, our papers and everything else 314 00:22:40,766 --> 00:22:45,626 Speaker 3: in there. It was in the garage, and the prosecution 315 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:51,226 Speaker 3: went nuts when they found out that their super detectives 316 00:22:51,286 --> 00:22:54,106 Speaker 3: hadn't found it. 317 00:22:54,106 --> 00:22:57,246 Speaker 1: $ 35, 000 is a hefty chunk of change. It's equivalent to 318 00:22:57,286 --> 00:23:01,966 Speaker 1: about $ 110, 000 today. Fred basically had a year's salary in 319 00:23:02,006 --> 00:23:06,636 Speaker 1: his freezer underneath the orange juice. Why would anyone keep 320 00:23:06,876 --> 00:23:28,806 Speaker 1: that much cash just lying around his house? To own 321 00:23:28,866 --> 00:23:33,666 Speaker 1: a sailboat, one as stunning as Perseverance, it was Fred's 322 00:23:33,786 --> 00:23:39,126 Speaker 1: dream come true. She was brand new and sleek, toothpaste 323 00:23:39,186 --> 00:23:43,656 Speaker 1: white with teak decks and trim. Everything about her, down 324 00:23:43,696 --> 00:23:45,536 Speaker 1: to the name, was perfect. 325 00:23:46,856 --> 00:23:48,476 Speaker 10: Fred and I looked at each other. 326 00:23:48,416 --> 00:23:50,336 Speaker 4: And said, I don't think we could think of anything 327 00:23:50,416 --> 00:23:54,736 Speaker 4: more apropos than that for us. For all the stuff 328 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:58,506 Speaker 4: we'd gone through, you know, both of our lives were 329 00:23:58,546 --> 00:24:03,106 Speaker 4: not smooth. They had bumps all over them. 330 00:24:03,286 --> 00:24:10,906 Speaker 10: So we both sort of felt that having persevered, we 331 00:24:10,926 --> 00:24:15,106 Speaker 10: were very fortunate to have found each other and, you know, 332 00:24:15,136 --> 00:24:16,456 Speaker 10: be doing well with our family. 333 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,236 Speaker 1: No longer would Fred be cleaning the bottom of Dick 334 00:24:21,256 --> 00:24:25,746 Speaker 1: Valthoen's boat. He would take his boat and go anywhere 335 00:24:25,766 --> 00:24:30,066 Speaker 1: he pleased. In fact, when detectives Ray and Tuller first 336 00:24:30,106 --> 00:24:32,936 Speaker 1: came to see him, Fred dropped a big piece of 337 00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:36,616 Speaker 1: news on them. He and Verna and the kids had 338 00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 1: been about to set sail on a long trip. They'd 339 00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:44,576 Speaker 1: planned to be gone for months, maybe a year. 340 00:24:44,596 --> 00:24:47,596 Speaker 2: We were delayed again this month. We had. 341 00:24:51,376 --> 00:24:57,356 Speaker 14: Been getting provisions and medical things, and just literally everything 342 00:24:57,416 --> 00:24:57,796 Speaker 14: to get. 343 00:24:57,716 --> 00:24:59,456 Speaker 2: Ready to go. Where were you going to go? We 344 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 2: were going to go to Mexico. And we were trying 345 00:25:02,856 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 2: to do. 346 00:25:05,126 --> 00:25:07,866 Speaker 9: A lot of documentation, and the children each had. 347 00:25:07,726 --> 00:25:11,206 Speaker 2: A logbook for. 348 00:25:09,966 --> 00:25:12,866 Speaker 14: Writing down all the things that they were feeling and 349 00:25:12,946 --> 00:25:15,126 Speaker 14: seeing and some things like that. 350 00:25:16,506 --> 00:25:18,826 Speaker 1: The kids were going to journal, and Fred would take 351 00:25:18,906 --> 00:25:22,566 Speaker 1: photos and film. They were thinking about writing a book 352 00:25:22,586 --> 00:25:25,486 Speaker 1: or making a movie about their adventure. The story of 353 00:25:25,526 --> 00:25:27,826 Speaker 1: their trip told through the children's eyes. 354 00:25:29,786 --> 00:25:36,096 Speaker 2: On your Mexico cruise, were you headed for any two-way points? No, 355 00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:36,556 Speaker 2: not really. 356 00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:39,376 Speaker 11: We have picked up a bunch of charts and talked 357 00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:42,516 Speaker 11: to a number of people. And our intentions were to 358 00:25:42,536 --> 00:25:46,256 Speaker 11: basically just hop all along the peninsula and then come 359 00:25:46,296 --> 00:25:47,986 Speaker 11: back up into the Gulf of California and spend some 360 00:25:48,026 --> 00:25:52,656 Speaker 11: time up there. I had read Steinbeck's book, The Sea 361 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:54,856 Speaker 11: of Quartets, and I gave her a copy of that. 362 00:25:54,896 --> 00:25:59,696 Speaker 7: Did she have any particular fears or anything about going? 363 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:04,536 Speaker 11: Yeah, she really didn't like the shipping lanes. And didn't 364 00:26:04,576 --> 00:26:08,236 Speaker 11: like fog very much. That was a big thing. 365 00:26:10,656 --> 00:26:13,216 Speaker 1: Later, Fred made some notes about how the Mexico Plan 366 00:26:13,256 --> 00:26:18,966 Speaker 1: had come to be. Quote, sitting in hot tub, September 1979, 367 00:26:18,966 --> 00:26:22,386 Speaker 1: Concerned about raising the children in Malibu. Dope. 368 00:26:22,886 --> 00:26:24,986 Speaker 2: Peer groups. Solution? 369 00:26:25,586 --> 00:26:29,516 Speaker 1: Pack up and go cruising? According to Fred, the trip 370 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 1: to Mexico had motivated him and Verna to get organized. 371 00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:36,376 Speaker 1: In the fall of 1980, right after he and Verna 372 00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:42,956 Speaker 1: were legally married, they began some vigorous estate planning. They 373 00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:48,466 Speaker 1: started buying insurance. Detective Ray asked Fred about this. when 374 00:26:48,506 --> 00:26:50,286 Speaker 1: questioning him about Verna and Doug. 375 00:26:51,846 --> 00:26:55,956 Speaker 2: Were they both insured? Yeah, our whole family was insured. 376 00:26:56,556 --> 00:27:04,836 Speaker 2: What company are they insured through? Travelers, I believe. Was 377 00:27:04,856 --> 00:27:09,426 Speaker 2: that in her name or your name? Well, we had 378 00:27:09,466 --> 00:27:19,776 Speaker 2: just set up a trust and gone through... A whole 379 00:27:20,936 --> 00:27:27,496 Speaker 2: estate planning thing. Do you have the policy around? I 380 00:27:31,706 --> 00:27:40,966 Speaker 2: think that's probably in the safety deposit box. I'm not sure. Okay. 381 00:27:42,306 --> 00:27:44,566 Speaker 2: How much was the policies for? 382 00:27:47,866 --> 00:27:55,886 Speaker 14: I think there's $ 400, 000 on myself and Verna and $ 60, 000 383 00:27:54,486 --> 00:27:56,546 Speaker 14: on each of the four children. 384 00:27:58,946 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 1: That was almost it. There were also accidental death riders 385 00:28:04,056 --> 00:28:08,016 Speaker 1: worth an additional $ 300, 000 for each of the adults and 386 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:12,696 Speaker 1: an additional $ 60, 000 for each of the kids. Doug's policy 387 00:28:12,776 --> 00:28:18,246 Speaker 1: named his surviving siblings... Fred was the beneficiary of Verna's policy. 388 00:28:18,926 --> 00:28:22,966 Speaker 1: That meant the payout from her death was $ 700, 000 in 389 00:28:22,966 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 1: 1981 money, which is about $ 2. 25 million today. The detectives 390 00:28:35,056 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 1: wanted more details because they said the insurance company would 391 00:28:38,856 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 1: be calling them in the course of processing the claims. 392 00:28:42,786 --> 00:28:45,696 Speaker 2: They were pretty patient with a few months, but then 393 00:28:45,876 --> 00:28:46,316 Speaker 2: once you. 394 00:28:47,256 --> 00:28:50,136 Speaker 7: Got there, it started getting pressure from you to settle 395 00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:55,646 Speaker 7: and then, or your family or whoever, the beneficiary of 396 00:28:55,666 --> 00:28:58,486 Speaker 7: the trust, I think it would be you and the kids, right? 397 00:28:59,106 --> 00:28:59,986 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 398 00:29:00,026 --> 00:29:04,066 Speaker 14: I think somehow the trust is, but I don't recall 399 00:29:04,146 --> 00:29:05,406 Speaker 14: the mechanics of that. 400 00:29:06,326 --> 00:29:09,516 Speaker 2: You think the trust is, what do you understand it? 401 00:29:10,216 --> 00:29:13,176 Speaker 14: I think that the trust is a beneficiary, as opposed 402 00:29:13,216 --> 00:29:14,256 Speaker 14: to either of us. 403 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:17,336 Speaker 2: Oh, in other words, if something happens, everything goes into 404 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:17,776 Speaker 2: the trust. 405 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:23,956 Speaker 1: Fred said he and the kids weren't the beneficiaries. The 406 00:29:23,996 --> 00:29:29,456 Speaker 1: Johnson-Raylor trust was. That was a little slippery. The funds 407 00:29:29,496 --> 00:29:31,776 Speaker 1: from the insurance would maybe end up in the trust, 408 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:35,596 Speaker 1: like any other family asset. But Fred was named on 409 00:29:35,666 --> 00:29:41,816 Speaker 1: Verna's policy. The money would be his. Fred also didn't 410 00:29:41,896 --> 00:29:45,826 Speaker 1: say that he was the trustee. If the insurance money 411 00:29:45,926 --> 00:29:50,176 Speaker 1: flowed into the trust, he would control it. It was 412 00:29:50,256 --> 00:29:53,136 Speaker 1: right around then that Fred decided he had said enough. 413 00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 1: He needed to talk to his friend Bill Fairfield, the 414 00:29:57,076 --> 00:29:59,416 Speaker 1: lawyer who'd advised him and Verna on the trust. 415 00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:05,206 Speaker 14: I guess I want everything to be set up. I 416 00:30:05,226 --> 00:30:08,926 Speaker 14: guess it's settled as much information as I can give you. 417 00:30:09,726 --> 00:30:14,306 Speaker 14: And at the same time, I know he's going to 418 00:30:14,326 --> 00:30:18,566 Speaker 14: break my arm if I just do everything. Without talking 419 00:30:18,586 --> 00:30:20,546 Speaker 14: to him, I have not spoken to him. 420 00:30:23,026 --> 00:30:25,986 Speaker 1: The detectives weren't buying the Mexico trip as a reason 421 00:30:26,046 --> 00:30:30,456 Speaker 1: for taking out huge insurance policies. It reeked of planning. 422 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:33,976 Speaker 1: Like Fred was thinking about the murders and the ways 423 00:30:33,996 --> 00:30:37,876 Speaker 1: he'd cover them up. And the insurance. Well, that looked 424 00:30:37,896 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 1: like another pattern in his life. Because Fred, the detectives 425 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:45,116 Speaker 1: were learning, knew a thing or two about insurance. 426 00:30:46,696 --> 00:30:50,096 Speaker 13: Lighting his car on fire to get the insurance settlement 427 00:30:50,376 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 13: to act as a down payment on a new car. 428 00:30:52,896 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 13: They're the parents, but they burned down a farmhouse to 429 00:30:56,136 --> 00:30:57,836 Speaker 13: collect the insurance, as I understand. 430 00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:04,046 Speaker 14: Fires, bike accidents, car accidents, tractor accidents, a houseboat on fire, 431 00:31:04,066 --> 00:31:05,546 Speaker 14: Papap's barn on fire. 432 00:31:06,106 --> 00:31:10,246 Speaker 13: If it's true, and I say if, it shows early 433 00:31:10,266 --> 00:31:13,126 Speaker 13: on the ability to conceive of insurance fraud. 434 00:31:13,506 --> 00:31:16,266 Speaker 9: Just all of the horrible accidents that can happen to 435 00:31:16,386 --> 00:31:16,986 Speaker 9: one family. 436 00:31:19,366 --> 00:31:22,206 Speaker 1: The detectives had found a motive to hand to the 437 00:31:22,266 --> 00:31:29,116 Speaker 1: district attorney. It was the Malibu lifestyle. Fred, they thought, 438 00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:32,816 Speaker 1: wanted to live a life of leisure. like so many 439 00:31:32,856 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 1: of the ritzy folks buying up all the beach houses 440 00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:41,126 Speaker 1: in Malibu. To accomplish this, the detectives surmised, Fred would 441 00:31:41,166 --> 00:31:45,326 Speaker 1: need a big windfall. Say, $ 700, 000 in insurance money from 442 00:31:45,406 --> 00:32:08,146 Speaker 1: an accident with no witnesses. Coming up on the next 443 00:32:08,206 --> 00:32:12,346 Speaker 1: episode of Lost Hills, what was Verna worth to Fred? 444 00:32:13,286 --> 00:32:14,166 Speaker 6: She was his life. 445 00:32:15,706 --> 00:32:18,246 Speaker 2: In fact, just showed him the way that life could be. 446 00:32:18,746 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 9: I'm saying Verna meant to him something that money couldn't buy. 447 00:32:23,796 --> 00:32:29,516 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 8, Three Freds. Lost Hills is 448 00:32:29,576 --> 00:32:32,956 Speaker 1: written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created by 449 00:32:33,016 --> 00:32:36,026 Speaker 1: me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and 450 00:32:36,066 --> 00:32:39,896 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 451 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:42,536 Speaker 1: the whole season ad-free and get early access to the 452 00:32:42,576 --> 00:32:46,096 Speaker 1: final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills 453 00:32:46,136 --> 00:32:48,626 Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.