1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:35,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A week after his arrest in early April nineteen 2 00:00:35,436 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: eighty one, Fred took a polygraph exam. Surprisingly, it wasn't 3 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: ordered by law enforcement. It was ordered by Fred's defense team. 4 00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: Polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable, but Fred's lawyers were hoping 5 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 1: that a successful polygraph would help prove his innocence. There 6 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: was a lot to go over. Fred had entered a 7 00:00:56,676 --> 00:01:00,316 Speaker 1: plea of not guilty, but the second autopsy showed trauma 8 00:01:00,396 --> 00:01:03,556 Speaker 1: to Verna and Doug, bruises and marks that seemed to 9 00:01:03,596 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 1: bolster the CoP's working theory that Fred had killed them violently. 10 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:13,876 Speaker 1: The polygraph was meant to bring clarity. It was a 11 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: past failed test. Fred was either a liar or he wasn't. 12 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:25,236 Speaker 1: If you didn't have any connection with their death other 13 00:01:25,236 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 1: than accidental, the believing you pass a pot. This is 14 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:33,556 Speaker 1: the polygraph examiner explaining the process to Fred. I had 15 00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:35,836 Speaker 1: no idea if you're going to be lying to me 16 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: or tell me the truth. But after we get into 17 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: this for a couple of hours, you're going to find out. 18 00:01:39,836 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 1: I can tell when you lie, if you're responsible doing that, 19 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 1: or you tell a movie water or anyway. So of course, 20 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:48,716 Speaker 1: and here by my way, and you will fail the polygraph. 21 00:01:49,556 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 1: After the examiner had established Fred's baseline how he reacted 22 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 1: to questions of various kinds, he started asking him about Verna, 23 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 1: Doug and what happened on January second, nineteen eighty one, 24 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:06,316 Speaker 1: the day they drowned. Then I have lunch luncher? Did 25 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:10,316 Speaker 1: you have on one? Because I was, as Fred this, No, 26 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:12,516 Speaker 1: that's a bunch of bullshit. That's a bunch of bullshit. 27 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 1: How about Doug? Was he doing some time? That Vernon 28 00:02:14,556 --> 00:02:17,556 Speaker 1: has been swimming since we bought the boat and bought 29 00:02:17,556 --> 00:02:20,356 Speaker 1: our house and Malda. I think when we went to 30 00:02:20,476 --> 00:02:23,196 Speaker 1: my parents' house she went in the pool, but she 31 00:02:23,396 --> 00:02:26,316 Speaker 1: was really not a good swimmer. How did you get along? 32 00:02:26,396 --> 00:02:33,516 Speaker 1: There was everything okay in the bedroom. It was actually 33 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 1: a social Actually everything was terrific in the room. And 34 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:42,396 Speaker 1: how about between the three that you had done yourself 35 00:02:42,436 --> 00:02:46,476 Speaker 1: and burn up? How was publish relationship that good? Bad? 36 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: Or very different? Yeah? I would say it would be 37 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: good with the qualification. The qualification was that they disagreed 38 00:02:55,916 --> 00:02:58,516 Speaker 1: about how to handle Doug. If there were going to 39 00:02:58,556 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 1: be points of concern between Burnie and I about the children, 40 00:03:02,836 --> 00:03:07,116 Speaker 1: that's working on my king. The examiner flipped the tape 41 00:03:07,156 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: over to the other side, then continue asking Fred about 42 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:12,476 Speaker 1: the day of the drownings. Well, then you were tired 43 00:03:12,516 --> 00:03:15,196 Speaker 1: of how worn it so? Then forty fives two bodies 44 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:21,876 Speaker 1: on worn? Yeah? Did you almost die? But keep you going, Fred, 45 00:03:24,276 --> 00:03:27,396 Speaker 1: that's okay. Just I realized were you a frame of diing? 46 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:35,436 Speaker 1: He just couldn't stop, could you? Fred had started getting emotional. 47 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 1: Did you think he stopped, you would have died. I 48 00:03:49,796 --> 00:03:54,516 Speaker 1: just knew that I was wearing down. I didn't die 49 00:03:54,556 --> 00:03:57,316 Speaker 1: for for a long time. I know when I'm tired underwater. 50 00:03:57,436 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 1: I know when my breathing he screwed up and I 51 00:03:59,436 --> 00:04:02,236 Speaker 1: can't get my breath, and all those things were going on. 52 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 1: I was taken on water just at all turned to ship. 53 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 1: The exam lasted over an hour. Near the end, Fred 54 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:18,116 Speaker 1: told the examiner he wasn't feeling so good. I'll see 55 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:20,516 Speaker 1: how you do it first? Can pretty gooey? Oh you 56 00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:34,756 Speaker 1: are a sweaty answer? Is this normal? Abnormal? How awful? 57 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: Fred said? A few minutes later, the tape ends. When 58 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 1: I asked Fred the result of the polygraph, he told 59 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 1: me it was inconclusive. He didn't pass or fail, he said, 60 00:04:51,196 --> 00:04:53,516 Speaker 1: and the polygraph was never a factor in the trial. 61 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 1: But there was one question the examiner asked that seemed 62 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:01,556 Speaker 1: to come almost out of the blue. It was abstract 63 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 1: and vague, and yet it drove right to the heart 64 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:09,036 Speaker 1: of the investigation, right to the heart of Fred's motive. 65 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: Vaitions in life quest you loved the most? Love or Money? 66 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:20,076 Speaker 1: That one. Fred didn't answer right away, and when he did, 67 00:05:20,676 --> 00:05:24,956 Speaker 1: his voice had the controlled, deliberate quality of a valedictorian 68 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 1: on graduation day. I think is most important. Okay, now, 69 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 1: you guys. But the question of money and how badly 70 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: Fred needed it, that was exactly what law enforcement had 71 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:46,156 Speaker 1: been trying to figure out. I'm Dana Goodyear and this 72 00:05:47,556 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: is Lost Hells Episode seven, Love or Money. Fred and 73 00:06:22,156 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 1: Verna were supposed to be a love story. They'd both 74 00:06:25,716 --> 00:06:29,516 Speaker 1: overcome the tragic, untimely deaths of their first spouses to 75 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 1: find love again. But there were some irregularities in the 76 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 1: origin story. One it seemed like maybe they'd gotten together 77 00:06:41,036 --> 00:06:46,396 Speaker 1: before Jean died. When the Santa Barbara detectives asked around 78 00:06:46,436 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 1: about Fred and Verna, they heard one thing loud and clear. 79 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:53,236 Speaker 1: Whether you approved or you didn't, It had been a 80 00:06:53,356 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 1: whirlwind romance. In handwritten notes Fred made around the time 81 00:06:58,036 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: of his trial, he laid out the way in which 82 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 1: his relationship with Verna changed babysitter, friend, lover wife. At 83 00:07:07,676 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 1: the line for lover, he writes da dates as if 84 00:07:11,956 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: he's trying to get a handle on what law enforcement knew. 85 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 1: That's because the detectives had started to suspect that Fred 86 00:07:19,676 --> 00:07:25,676 Speaker 1: and Verna were having an affair before Jean died. Verna's 87 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: friend and confidant, Patty Lytell, had told them as much, 88 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 1: and when Fred's investigator went to talk to her, she 89 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 1: doubled down. Here she is talking to the investigator. I 90 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 1: didn't ask this. She's having an affair with him. She 91 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:47,476 Speaker 1: told me too. I realize Verna and I were very close, 92 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:53,716 Speaker 1: leaving it close together. True, that would be a problem 93 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:56,916 Speaker 1: were it ever to come out in court. Questioned by 94 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: the detectives, Fred's sailing buddy, Dick Felfoean admitted to his 95 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 1: affair with Jean, but Fred always denied knowing about it. 96 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: Even to this day, he denies it, and he denies 97 00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:12,276 Speaker 1: he and Verna got together before Jean's death, because if 98 00:08:12,316 --> 00:08:14,876 Speaker 1: he knew Jean was cheating and he wanted to be 99 00:08:14,956 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: with Verna. Those affairs would establish a powerful motive, not 100 00:08:19,876 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: just for him to kill Jean, but who knows, maybe 101 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: for him to kill Vernah's first husband too. So they 102 00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 1: might have been together before they were together. But then 103 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: there was something else the detectives uncovered even more shocking 104 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 1: to their church friends. When they got married, they weren't 105 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:48,476 Speaker 1: really married. Do you recall the married ceremony on the beach. 106 00:08:50,116 --> 00:08:53,436 Speaker 1: This is a private investigator hired by Fred's defense talking 107 00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 1: to Verna's good friend Michelle Williams and her husband Dick. 108 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:00,876 Speaker 1: Were you aware when that ceremony was held that they 109 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:06,196 Speaker 1: were not legally married? That moving ceremony Christmas of nineteen 110 00:09:06,276 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 1: seventy seven, when Fred and Verna dressed, the kids been 111 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 1: matching outfits and they all exchanged rings, it wasn't actually 112 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: a wedding. Did that make any difference to you finding 113 00:09:18,076 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: that out two weeks ago they were not legally married 114 00:09:23,476 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 1: during this ceremony, that it was a religious ceremony. Where 115 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 1: I don't really understand the little thing. I just love 116 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:31,436 Speaker 1: that out two weeks ago, a little late games. You know, 117 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: John Hagar, the minister from the Methodist Church, had performed 118 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:39,316 Speaker 1: the ceremony, so the guests had assumed it was legit. Well, 119 00:09:39,476 --> 00:09:41,996 Speaker 1: John Hagar, it was the guy that was there on 120 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: the beach that day, and he's the guy who married him. 121 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 1: So I don't know what the difference is. But apparently 122 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:51,036 Speaker 1: some of the people who have, you know, said some 123 00:09:51,156 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: bad things about Fred and Verna, thought that that was 124 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: just awful, that they had been deceived and sewing and 125 00:09:56,636 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: so forth. So I don't well, had had they not 126 00:09:59,556 --> 00:10:02,836 Speaker 1: applied for mary license, They don't know what the circumstances were. 127 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:06,276 Speaker 1: I'm just asking the questions to try and find out. 128 00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what it means either, because he's 129 00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: an ordained instrum. You know what it could have been financial, 130 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 1: That's all I could think. That was exactly it. Fred 131 00:10:21,916 --> 00:10:24,436 Speaker 1: later wrote that the reason he and Verna hadn't married 132 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:29,956 Speaker 1: then was economic, because if she remarried, Verna would stop 133 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:34,116 Speaker 1: getting pension and social security benefits from her deceased husband Bill. 134 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna kept it quiet, but in a handwritten will, 135 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:42,796 Speaker 1: Verna spelled it all out. While I am not legally 136 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: married to Frederick George Riller the second because of financial 137 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 1: and tax purposes, she wrote, we are married in the 138 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 1: eyes of God, and that is what really counts. If 139 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 1: she died, she continued, she intended for Fred to raise 140 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:03,756 Speaker 1: her children, Kim and Doug, and quote continue the finances 141 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:07,596 Speaker 1: of my estate with no other appointed trustee or executor. 142 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,196 Speaker 1: The wedding that wasn't raised a red flag for the 143 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:17,476 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara detectives, and Verna's will was one of the 144 00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:19,996 Speaker 1: many items listed on the warrant they got in order 145 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:23,556 Speaker 1: to search the house on Sea Level Drive. But in 146 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: that search they also found another suspicious document in a 147 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:33,996 Speaker 1: desk drawer, a confidential record of another wedding, this one legal. 148 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:39,556 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna had been married secretly by the same minister, 149 00:11:40,556 --> 00:11:42,796 Speaker 1: but it was more than two years after the wedding 150 00:11:42,796 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 1: on the beach. Their actual marriage date was July twelfth, 151 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:52,596 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, just five months before Verna's death. By the 152 00:11:52,716 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 1: time Verna died, the couple's assets had been transferred to 153 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: a trust they'd set up with help from Fred's old 154 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 1: friend and lawyer, Bill Fairfield. The purpose of the Johnson 155 00:12:03,796 --> 00:12:07,036 Speaker 1: Railer Trust, Fred said, was to prevent any gossip that 156 00:12:07,156 --> 00:12:10,676 Speaker 1: might arise about financial gain should he or Verna die. 157 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:14,196 Speaker 1: The detectives found the flow chart for the trust in 158 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: the silver case underneath a desk in the living room, 159 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 1: along with a guide book for widows and what appeared 160 00:12:20,716 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 1: to be Fred's diary of the day that Verna and 161 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 1: Doug drowned. The Santa Barbara detectives, Fred Ray and Claude 162 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:44,676 Speaker 1: Toller were talking to everyone in Malibu about every aspect 163 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:48,956 Speaker 1: of Fred's life with Verna. Verna's old friend Patty Lytell, 164 00:12:49,076 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 1: told them that back when Fred and Verna first got together, 165 00:12:52,596 --> 00:12:56,476 Speaker 1: Fred had pressured Verna to get married right away. Patty 166 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:58,716 Speaker 1: said Fred was trying to marry Verna just a couple 167 00:12:58,836 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 1: months after Jean died, but Verna seemed to worry what 168 00:13:02,036 --> 00:13:06,116 Speaker 1: people would think. Patty had advised Verna to take it slow, 169 00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: maybe live with Fred. Awhile before deciding, and she told 170 00:13:10,316 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 1: Verna what she was really worried about. She didn't think 171 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:16,756 Speaker 1: Fred loved her. She thought he was after her property 172 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:21,356 Speaker 1: on Broadbeach. Even though they hadn't gotten married right away, 173 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: Fred did figure out a financially beneficial solution. While he 174 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: and Verna remained officially unmarried. She could continue to collect 175 00:13:29,836 --> 00:13:33,876 Speaker 1: her first husband's benefits, and then once they did marry officially, 176 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 1: their assets, including her house, would go into the trust 177 00:13:38,796 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 1: of which Fred and Verna were co trustees, of which 178 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: Fred became the sole trustee once she died. When the 179 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:51,036 Speaker 1: detectives had interviewed Fred back in January, they'd asked a 180 00:13:51,156 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 1: lot of questions about his finances that before a year 181 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:05,236 Speaker 1: and Verna gotten very pictured network before we gotten there. Yeah, 182 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 1: I'm probably in the order of half a million dollars 183 00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: a piece. Hires her if in you work or with 184 00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 1: her money real estate? Two? What rules too? Was it right? 185 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:44,756 Speaker 1: She had some houses? There's a housing broad Beach or 186 00:14:44,956 --> 00:14:48,196 Speaker 1: any other houses that shield you know the lands? I 187 00:14:48,276 --> 00:14:52,236 Speaker 1: have two other houses. I have a house and on Calpine, 188 00:14:53,676 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: and then I have one I'm sorry, caliplines round here 189 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:05,716 Speaker 1: somewhere Pacific coast. Timer. If you own any other houses? 190 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:13,956 Speaker 1: Have you heard? Brighten this one? Fred's relationship with Verna, 191 00:15:14,436 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: their merger, he sometimes called it, began at a moment 192 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: when they had each inherited a modest fortune in real estate, 193 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 1: insurance money, and other benefits from their first spouses. When 194 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 1: Jean died, Fred received about seventy five thousand dollars in 195 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:34,476 Speaker 1: insurance money. That's about three hundred and sixty thousand into 196 00:15:34,556 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: day's dollars. Her social security benefits threw off the equivalent 197 00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:42,236 Speaker 1: of another thirty eight thousand in today's money every year 198 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: when she was alive and talking about divorce. Jean and 199 00:15:46,596 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: Fred owned two properties, a house in Oxnard and the 200 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 1: Kalpine House in Malibu, but with Jeanne gone, Fred became 201 00:15:54,916 --> 00:15:57,796 Speaker 1: the sole owner at a time when Malibu home values 202 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 1: were spiking. The Oxnard house was also on the coast, 203 00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: in an up and coming neighborhood called the Silver Strand. 204 00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:09,876 Speaker 1: He ended up turning both houses into income properties. The 205 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:14,236 Speaker 1: insurance policy on Verna's first husband, Bill Johnson, paid Verna 206 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 1: a substantial sum, about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 207 00:16:17,916 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 1: in today's money. She also got his generous pension and 208 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 1: social security benefits, and she became the sole owner of 209 00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 1: the property on Broad Beach Road, a duplex with a 210 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: garage apartment right on the beach in a neighborhood Allie 211 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:36,756 Speaker 1: mcgrawl would soon be priced out of. Outside of the 212 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 1: rental properties, the family's income was a hodgepodge. Fred only 213 00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 1: earned about thirty thousand dollars a year from his job 214 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: as an underwater engineer at Point Magoo. That's just over 215 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:50,676 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand in today's money. And according to his 216 00:16:50,796 --> 00:16:55,076 Speaker 1: colleague Denis O'Gorman, Fred's ambition had been in freefall ever 217 00:16:55,196 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 1: since Jean died. Here's O'Gorman talking to an investigator. He 218 00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:04,596 Speaker 1: very seemed very despondent about things. It was philosophizing. For instance, 219 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 1: he started talking about how, really, you know, it should 220 00:17:11,156 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: be a socialistic society. Anybody, everybody ought to be allowed 221 00:17:15,276 --> 00:17:17,156 Speaker 1: to do whatever it is that they want to do. 222 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 1: So if you decide you want to be a beach bump, 223 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 1: you get the same number of bucks as some guy 224 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:24,276 Speaker 1: who wants to sit in office and do calculations all day. Okay, 225 00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 1: no matter what you want to do, you ought to 226 00:17:25,756 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 1: be able to do it. I means your life, and 227 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:29,476 Speaker 1: it is so short. Want un enjoyed to the utmost. 228 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 1: You know, the perfect world if you have it on earth, 229 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 1: and that's basically stopped working about it. And it seemed 230 00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: like the more he got away with, the more he 231 00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:41,436 Speaker 1: wanted to get away with. And very job that Fred 232 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,236 Speaker 1: had was given to somebody else, which really ticked us off. 233 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:46,196 Speaker 1: I mean, we liked the work but now we're carrying 234 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 1: a hell of a workload, okay, more than our share. 235 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:51,716 Speaker 1: And here's one man who's making more money than any 236 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:53,876 Speaker 1: one of us because he's been there longer, and he's 237 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: higher up on the scale, and he's not doing anything. 238 00:17:56,516 --> 00:17:58,756 Speaker 1: And not only is he not doing anything, but he's 239 00:17:58,796 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 1: tying up the phones on personal calls. He's now dating 240 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: Verna and he's making personal calls with his girlfriends to 241 00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: his liars for proper investments or whatever the hailop days, 242 00:18:10,916 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 1: you know, anywhere, their personal calls. And he has a 243 00:18:15,956 --> 00:18:18,196 Speaker 1: smirk on his face like he knows that we know 244 00:18:18,396 --> 00:18:21,396 Speaker 1: what's going on, and there's nothing anybody can do or 245 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 1: wants to do about it. And by god, it's just 246 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 1: kissed my ass, you know, that kind of attitude, and 247 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:29,876 Speaker 1: it's infuriating. Then, from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty 248 00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:34,036 Speaker 1: Fred really stopped working. He'd injured his back, or so 249 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:37,276 Speaker 1: he said. On the polygraph, he admitted to fudging that 250 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,476 Speaker 1: a bit. Fred did have a little side business building 251 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 1: redwood hot tubs. Here he is talking to an investigator 252 00:18:44,156 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one. You've actually blacked him, black him 253 00:18:50,756 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: out of wood Jimmy is an installed for people who 254 00:18:54,476 --> 00:18:59,356 Speaker 1: are mostly friends. It was not a lucratic situation. There 255 00:18:59,436 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 1: was Verna's pay from her teaching job, which amounted to 256 00:19:01,996 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 1: just a couple grand a year. They had the benefits 257 00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 1: from their first spouses and the income from their various properties. 258 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:12,396 Speaker 1: They're houses might have been worth a lot, but cash flow, 259 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 1: how is this all working. In the spring of nineteen eighty, 260 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:22,036 Speaker 1: about nine months before Verna and dug drown, Fred and 261 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 1: Verna bought Perseverance, their fifty foot sailboat. The price tag 262 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 1: around one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, five times Fred's 263 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:34,476 Speaker 1: annual salary at Point Magoo back when he was working 264 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:40,636 Speaker 1: Perseverance was fancy. This is Dempsey Billy, an investigator for 265 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara Day's office. I talked to him recently. 266 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 1: He remembered Perseverance very well. The sailboat that was there 267 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 1: in the venture at Harbor, and a really nice boat. 268 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 1: They have a fireplace in it. Not too many sailboats 269 00:19:56,036 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: that I've been around a fireplace in them. Fred's salvency 270 00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:03,916 Speaker 1: was of great interest to the detectives. How was this 271 00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 1: guy who made so little money leveling up in Malibu. 272 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 1: By the time they went back and questioned Fred a 273 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:15,276 Speaker 1: second time on January twentieth, nineteen eighty one, they learned 274 00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:18,716 Speaker 1: a lot about his tumultuous relationship with Jean and that 275 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:22,316 Speaker 1: he'd improved his financial position and certainly his real estate 276 00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:26,356 Speaker 1: holdings upon her death. So they had a few more 277 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:33,196 Speaker 1: questions for Fred. Did you and bury Heaven? Maridle from Yeah, 278 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: how would you describe your relationship? You're very days, I 279 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:50,396 Speaker 1: would say, because good a relationship. Overall, anybody I've known 280 00:20:50,396 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: them shared the same aspirations, gone through really a learning 281 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: process for deciding what we really wanted to do with 282 00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: the children and in buying both and all the things. 283 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:22,036 Speaker 1: We shared interests in the children and shared interest and 284 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 1: thinks I would like to do friends with find families. 285 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:35,876 Speaker 1: I don't know what else. Were you having any financial 286 00:21:35,956 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 1: fund or are you having the financial funds today? Friend 287 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: says he wasn't underwater. Quite the contrary. When they were 288 00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:49,716 Speaker 1: saying that, oh you're you know I was broke, I said, well, 289 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:53,636 Speaker 1: the thing you didn't search when you tore up my 290 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 1: house was you didn't go into the deep freeze. I 291 00:21:56,916 --> 00:22:00,636 Speaker 1: had a faith in there. With thirty grand cash and 292 00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:05,036 Speaker 1: about five thousand and travelers checks in it, and they 293 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:07,716 Speaker 1: were sort of stunned. And then they asked the detectively 294 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 1: he had looked in this in the deep greeze, and 295 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 1: he said, of course he hadn't. What was that for? 296 00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:16,956 Speaker 1: And where did it come from? Ever since? I had 297 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 1: been making payments on different things, and when I no 298 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 1: longer made payments on them, I basically put some money 299 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:28,276 Speaker 1: aside in a safe, and I put it in our chest, 300 00:22:28,876 --> 00:22:34,436 Speaker 1: deep freeze, under a bunch of frozen crates of orange juice. 301 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:39,076 Speaker 1: And that's where I kept our passports and you know, 302 00:22:39,156 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 1: our papers and everything else in there. It was in 303 00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 1: the garage, and the prosecution went nuts when they found 304 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:53,396 Speaker 1: out that their super detectives hadn't found it. Thirty five 305 00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 1: thousand dollars is a hefty chunk of change. It's equivalent 306 00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 1: to about one hundred and ten thousand today. Fred basically 307 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:04,196 Speaker 1: had a year's salary and his freezer underneath the orange juice. 308 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 1: Why would anyone keep that much cash just lying around 309 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: his house? To own a sailboat one as stunning as perseverance. 310 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:37,436 Speaker 1: It was Fred's dream come true. She was brand new 311 00:23:37,556 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 1: and sleek toothpaste white with teak decks and trim. Everything 312 00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: about her down to the name was perfect. Her did 313 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:49,876 Speaker 1: not look at it. I don't think we could think 314 00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:54,156 Speaker 1: of anything more apropos than that for us, for all 315 00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:57,596 Speaker 1: the stuff we had gone through. You know, both of 316 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:02,076 Speaker 1: our lives were not not the not smooth. They had 317 00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 1: bumps all over them. So we both sort of felt that, 318 00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: having persevered, we were very fortunate to have found each other. 319 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:16,316 Speaker 1: And you know, I'll be doing well with our family. 320 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: No longer would Fred be cleaning the bottom of Dick 321 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:25,796 Speaker 1: Felfoen's boat. He would take his boat and go anywhere 322 00:24:25,796 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 1: he pleased. In fact, when detectives Ray and Tuller first 323 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 1: came to see him, Fred dropped a big piece of 324 00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:36,596 Speaker 1: news on them. He and Vernon and the kids had 325 00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 1: been about to set sail on a long track. They'd 326 00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:45,876 Speaker 1: planned to be gone for months, maybe a year. We 327 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: were leaving in a smart We have been getting provisions, 328 00:24:53,436 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 1: medical thing just just literally everything to get ready to go. 329 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 1: We're going to Mexican, and we were trying to do 330 00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 1: a lot of documentation and the children each had a 331 00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:11,996 Speaker 1: log book writing down all the things that they were 332 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 1: feeling and seeing. Fun things right, there. The kids were 333 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,956 Speaker 1: going to journal and Fred would take photos and film. 334 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:22,956 Speaker 1: They were thinking about writing a book or making a 335 00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 1: movie about their adventure, the story of their trip told 336 00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: through the children's eyes. Aren't your Mexico crews or were 337 00:25:32,276 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 1: you headed for to replays? No? Not really. We have 338 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 1: picked up a bunch of charts and talked to them 339 00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 1: of people and our intensions were amazing. Just pop all along, 340 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 1: keen some of them come back up into the golf 341 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: and Californias and con. I'd read Steinbeck's book See Portez, 342 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,756 Speaker 1: and I gave her a copy of that. Did she 343 00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: have any particular theories or anything. Boy, Yeah, she really 344 00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:05,636 Speaker 1: didn't like the shipping lands and didn't like fog very much. 345 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: That was really, that was some big thing. Later Fred 346 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:13,556 Speaker 1: made some notes about how the Mexico plan had come 347 00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:18,036 Speaker 1: to be quote sitting in hot tub September nineteen seventy nine, 348 00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:24,916 Speaker 1: concern about raising the children in Malibu, dope peer groups, solution, 349 00:26:25,516 --> 00:26:29,476 Speaker 1: pack up and go cruising. According to Fred, the trip 350 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 1: to Mexico had motivated him and Verna to get organized. 351 00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 1: In the fall of nineteen eighty, right after he and 352 00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: Verna were legally married, they began some vigorous estate planning, 353 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 1: they started buying insurance. Detective Ray asked Fred about this 354 00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:54,156 Speaker 1: when questioning him about Verna and Doug. Were the birds insured, Yeah, 355 00:26:54,156 --> 00:27:02,076 Speaker 1: our family was insure good company. Are they insured travelers? 356 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:08,236 Speaker 1: Was that in her name or your name or mousson? 357 00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:15,196 Speaker 1: We had just set up a trust and gone through 358 00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:32,076 Speaker 1: a state planning thing the policy route. I think that's 359 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 1: probably in the safety deposit box. I'm not sure, okay, 360 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:46,356 Speaker 1: h M. How much was the policy spot? I think 361 00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 1: there's four hundred thousand on myself and Vernon and sixty 362 00:27:54,836 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 1: thousand on each of the four children. That was almost it. 363 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:05,236 Speaker 1: There were also accidental death riders, worth an additional three 364 00:28:05,356 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 1: hundred thousand for each of the adults and an additional 365 00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:13,036 Speaker 1: sixty thousand for each of the kids. Doug's policy named 366 00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:18,196 Speaker 1: his surviving siblings. Fred was the beneficiary of Vernas policy. 367 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:21,716 Speaker 1: That meant the payout from her death was seven hundred 368 00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:25,356 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in nineteen eighty one, money, which is about 369 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: two point two five million today. The detectives wanted more 370 00:28:35,676 --> 00:28:39,276 Speaker 1: details because they said the insurance company would be calling 371 00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,276 Speaker 1: them in the course of processing the claims. They're pretty 372 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 1: patient for a few works for two words. Want. They 373 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 1: started they started getting pressure from me to settle in 374 00:28:50,836 --> 00:28:55,636 Speaker 1: and then or your family or whoever your beneficiary at 375 00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:58,076 Speaker 1: the trust I take would be you and the kids. 376 00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,556 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think somehow the trust it is, 377 00:29:01,636 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 1: but I don't I don't recall the mechanics today you 378 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:10,556 Speaker 1: take the trust to all the new I think that 379 00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:13,956 Speaker 1: the trust is a beneficiary as opposed to either of 380 00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:17,036 Speaker 1: us or in other words, if something happens, everything goes 381 00:29:17,076 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: into the trust. Fred said he and the kids weren't 382 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 1: the beneficiaries the Johnson Railer Trust was that was a 383 00:29:27,316 --> 00:29:30,956 Speaker 1: little slippery. The funds from the insurance would maybe end 384 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 1: up in the trust like any other family asset, but 385 00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:38,516 Speaker 1: Fred was named. On Verna's policy, the money would be his. 386 00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 1: Fred also didn't say that he was the trustee. If 387 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 1: the insurance money flowed into the trust, he would control it. 388 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:52,396 Speaker 1: It was right around then that Fred decided he had 389 00:29:52,436 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: said enough. He needed to talk to his friend Bill Fairfield, 390 00:29:56,876 --> 00:29:59,356 Speaker 1: the lawyer who'd advised him and Verna on the trust. 391 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:05,396 Speaker 1: I guess I want everything to be said. I guess 392 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: it's settled. As much information as I can give you 393 00:30:09,636 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 1: and at the same time, I know he's going to 394 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: breaking my arm. If I the qube just do everything 395 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:23,996 Speaker 1: about talking to him, I'm not spoken. The detectives weren't 396 00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:26,636 Speaker 1: buying the Mexico trip as a reason for taking out 397 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:32,036 Speaker 1: huge insurance policies. It reeked of planning, like Fred was 398 00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:34,756 Speaker 1: thinking about the murders and the ways he'd cover them up, 399 00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: and the insurance. Well, that looked like another pattern in 400 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:43,516 Speaker 1: his life. Because Fred, the detectives were learning, knew a 401 00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:48,276 Speaker 1: thing or two about insurance. Lighting his car on fire 402 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,676 Speaker 1: to get an insurance settlement back is a down payment 403 00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:54,876 Speaker 1: on a new car terance. But they burned down a 404 00:30:54,996 --> 00:31:00,156 Speaker 1: farmhouse to collect the insurances. I understand fires, bike accidents, 405 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: car accidents, tractor accidents, a houseboat on fire, tapap's barn 406 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 1: on fire. If it's true, and I say, if it 407 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:13,076 Speaker 1: showed early on the ability to conceive of insurance from 408 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 1: just all of the horrible accidents that can happen to 409 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:21,916 Speaker 1: one family. The detectives had found a motive to hand 410 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:28,556 Speaker 1: to the district attorney. It was the Malibu lifestyle. Fred, 411 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 1: they thought, wanted to live a life of leisure like 412 00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 1: so many of the ritzy folks. Buying up all the 413 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 1: beach houses in Malibu. To accomplish this, the detective surmised 414 00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:45,516 Speaker 1: Fred would need a big windfall, say seven hundred thousand 415 00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:52,516 Speaker 1: dollars in insurance money from an accident with no witnesses. 416 00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:10,356 Speaker 1: Coming up on the next episode of Lost tells what 417 00:32:10,636 --> 00:32:15,876 Speaker 1: was Verna worth to Fred? She was his life In fact, 418 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,836 Speaker 1: just showed him the way that life could be. I'm 419 00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 1: saying Verna ment to him, something that money could buy. 420 00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:29,476 Speaker 1: That's next in episode eight three. Fred's Lost Tails is 421 00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,956 Speaker 1: written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's created by 422 00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 1: me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and 423 00:32:35,996 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear 424 00:32:39,956 --> 00:32:42,356 Speaker 1: the whole season add free and get early access to 425 00:32:42,436 --> 00:32:45,876 Speaker 1: the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost 426 00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: Tails show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.