Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are
Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.
Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one.
Speaker 1: I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're
Speaker 1: trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you
Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It
Speaker 1: really is? What's up on? Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Christen.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to add Landia, Episode ten, a full ten,
Speaker 1: full ten. And because we're on episode ten, and because
Speaker 1: we have such a killer guest today, we are actually
Speaker 1: going to do are in the feed with our friend
Speaker 1: Jared Dicker, who is the head of innovation and research
Speaker 1: and development at the Washington Post. Just about everything. He
Speaker 1: wears many hats and coming off a cam. We just
Speaker 1: have so much to talk about. Jared and I spent
Speaker 1: quite a bit of time floating around um the French riviera,
Speaker 1: so to speak, kind of chatting about the future of
Speaker 1: the business, and we thought, hey, let's bring him in.
Speaker 1: Let's bring him in and have a conversation and then
Speaker 1: like also talk about what's the value of on there
Speaker 1: are people big contingent who didn't go to CAN. I
Speaker 1: didn't go to CAN. Lots of agencies. Actually it was
Speaker 1: like you were there. I was walking with you and
Speaker 1: we were talking yet about three in the morning and CAN.
Speaker 1: But you know, the big question of are these awards
Speaker 1: shows um, should they live continue to live on people
Speaker 1: being participants? What does that look like? Who are the
Speaker 1: participants that should be there? And then I love something
Speaker 1: that I think you're going to get into, which is
Speaker 1: how do we get CAN to have a bigger impact
Speaker 1: in the industry, but also how do you start democratizing it?
Speaker 1: So so we hear that. Yeah, we'll be right back
Speaker 1: with Jared Dicker from the Washington Post. What's up at Landia.
Speaker 1: We're back with the one and only Jared Dicker. Jared Dicker,
Speaker 1: who is currently at the Washington Post, a good friend
Speaker 1: of ours. So we were just talking about this. You have,
Speaker 1: you know, your standard title, but what do you really
Speaker 1: do at the Washington Post, because it's much more than
Speaker 1: your title says, Yeah, so many many hats, which is
Speaker 1: a horrible analogy analogy to say. But the fun part
Speaker 1: of my job at the Washington Post is that I
Speaker 1: found our R and D group read which basically allows
Speaker 1: me to focus on engineering and building new technologies that
Speaker 1: we could then sell commercially in the Space Agency's clients partners.
Speaker 1: And we basically treat the Washington Post like a playground
Speaker 1: to see what works consumer and commercial side, um other
Speaker 1: than that oversea all business product engineering, operations strategy. And
Speaker 1: you're like the man about town. Really, I like to
Speaker 1: have a good time, that's for sure. Jared and I
Speaker 1: are just back from CAN. I know we missed you.
Speaker 1: I know I was the one that didn't go. There's
Speaker 1: so many people who didn't go this year. It was
Speaker 1: very interesting. Did you guys feel that when you were
Speaker 1: a Can it was definitely lighter this year. I only
Speaker 1: know that because there were no lines at the yachts. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like people before they go to and book
Speaker 1: their calendars, show their bosses by their tickets, and then
Speaker 1: as soon as they land they cancel every single meeting.
Speaker 1: So outside of so, it was lighter this year. What
Speaker 1: were if you had like two things to take away
Speaker 1: from Ken, what would you say those two big things
Speaker 1: and different things than they have been in the past.
Speaker 1: Because I've heard a lot from a lot of folks
Speaker 1: who have said it was actually different this year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I would say I feel like ken is
Speaker 1: a place where people identify issues but cannot solve them
Speaker 1: or don't have a lot of positioning or power to solve.
Speaker 1: Someone said to me that, you know, publishers go out
Speaker 1: there to meet with agencies and a lot of like
Speaker 1: publisher where the clients they're oftentimes because of the ad
Speaker 1: technology companies, And that's totally changed. Yeah, so that's become interesting.
Speaker 1: But what's really interesting is they get the right people.
Speaker 1: They're having great conversations. I don't know what comes out
Speaker 1: of it. I think you hear a lot of you mean,
Speaker 1: like all the panels, great conversations, great panels, great you know,
Speaker 1: great people conversation talked on the show and Jar and
Speaker 1: I were talking about it out there, and I think
Speaker 1: this speaks to what you're saying in terms of solving
Speaker 1: is like do we need to turn can into like
Speaker 1: the G eight of media and marketing and like actually
Speaker 1: have people coming with the outcome. Nobody was really, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, pushing the envelope in terms of Holy sh it,
Speaker 1: that was a real provocative conversation and that's going to
Speaker 1: change the way we think about this industry moving forward.
Speaker 1: What do you think about Joe Marquis's announcement that they're
Speaker 1: going to start making like six second ads. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think what's really special about Joe, and he's a friend,
Speaker 1: is that he's one of the few ad chiefs at
Speaker 1: this point. He wasn't always an achieve. Now is an achief,
Speaker 1: accidental ad chief UM that can make things happen. So
Speaker 1: he often says, you know, your attention is the number
Speaker 1: one commodity, and we all recognize that, but it's very
Speaker 1: hard to convince every single layer of advertising and media
Speaker 1: to get on board with that and oversee something like
Speaker 1: Fox and make those announcements, and also oversee a company
Speaker 1: like True Acts that builds the actual ad products. He
Speaker 1: has power to help instill these things. So it's interesting
Speaker 1: because that's what happened with New York Times. I mean, obviously, no,
Speaker 1: Meredith was just on the show, and Um since then
Speaker 1: has been promoted to CEO. And some of the conversations
Speaker 1: that we're having out in Can were around the fact
Speaker 1: that for the first time you're starting to see product
Speaker 1: and marketing sitting in the same department, so to speak,
Speaker 1: starting to get tighter. There wasn't like a data conversation
Speaker 1: happening over here. More people were saying like, Okay, now
Speaker 1: do we make this applicable to creative? Did you catch
Speaker 1: that while you were there or yes? So I've tried
Speaker 1: to make my career out of that because everyone always
Speaker 1: hated working on advertising or the commercial side of the business.
Speaker 1: But I really believe that this silo mentality of really
Speaker 1: breaking up your organization to focus on consumer and commercial
Speaker 1: and so forth is is old. You know, it really
Speaker 1: doesn't help you move forward where where if you have
Speaker 1: this no silo. Everyone wants to grow audiences. Right for
Speaker 1: the Post, it's about growing audiences for the Times, it's
Speaker 1: about growing audiences subscriptions. Every single person in that organization
Speaker 1: should be working towards that, Like creative and data are
Speaker 1: the two stuff advertising, And everyone's full of shit if
Speaker 1: they say that they've been marrying them together and that
Speaker 1: native advertising does that and so forth, like like, it's
Speaker 1: very bullshit in that sense. So to that point, I agree,
Speaker 1: I think I think you really have to convince everyone
Speaker 1: on board, from the newsroom to the engineers to sales like,
Speaker 1: this is our mission. This is how we'll get there
Speaker 1: if we all do it. Correctly will all benefit? So
Speaker 1: here's my last question. I can there are a ton
Speaker 1: of agencies and ton of executives talking about how they're
Speaker 1: backing out of award shows, the award shows are not
Speaker 1: shouldn't be the focus anymore, and that they're focusing on
Speaker 1: talent and they're focusing on real creative What do you
Speaker 1: guys think about that? Like, do you think that can
Speaker 1: is worth it anymore? Do you think from an award
Speaker 1: show standpoint, like are they actually finding um and mining
Speaker 1: the best kind of creative and talent and putting it
Speaker 1: up as an industry standard? Well, it's hard. I think
Speaker 1: with can UM the categories and the nominees are so
Speaker 1: broad that you have companies like in Post competing with
Speaker 1: Google VR for Welcome to the World, right right, But
Speaker 1: but like that's where I think you see, like is
Speaker 1: it worth it or not? Right? And with this sort
Speaker 1: of investment, I think I think there is something about
Speaker 1: can it exists for a reason. Um all of the
Speaker 1: top creative lists and things that come out a week later,
Speaker 1: you know, the notoriety and things of that are great.
Speaker 1: I think I think there needs to be some sort
Speaker 1: of focus. Like what I saw is that there's there's
Speaker 1: the media side of CAN, and then there's you know,
Speaker 1: the ad side of CAN. I have two questions in
Speaker 1: the industry. One, what is the value of a can lion? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I want to know how we're equating that in the
Speaker 1: industry because in pitch decks and when you're out obviously
Speaker 1: um going after clients, it's wonderful to say I've won
Speaker 1: a CAN line. But in the world of marketing and
Speaker 1: the fragmentation that exists currently and the idea that creativity
Speaker 1: is pervasive through literally everything, what is the value of
Speaker 1: a CAN line? That is? That is an honest question.
Speaker 1: I'd love to solve question number two, or rather a
Speaker 1: statement and you being there, Jared, I mean, feel free
Speaker 1: to weigh. And every year we're constantly asking ourselves as
Speaker 1: an industry are what are the standards? When we come
Speaker 1: to CAN we get to see presumably the best of
Speaker 1: what the industry has to offer as a gold standard
Speaker 1: and work. Yet we're not applying this to what the
Speaker 1: standards are? Two different standards to scalable, two scalable standards, right,
Speaker 1: So I B is all about scalable standards. Does this
Speaker 1: give us an opportunity to do one or two things
Speaker 1: either suggest that this is the way in which those
Speaker 1: standards can be applied, or does it give us an
Speaker 1: opportunity to say, actually, I b this is why this
Speaker 1: guideline is broken. So that I think is very true.
Speaker 1: The other thing I'd say is that as we try
Speaker 1: to differentiate ourselves and and as marketers have to make
Speaker 1: tougher decisions on who to work with and narrow that scope,
Speaker 1: a can line is kind of like the end of
Speaker 1: the road of your creative process. Like you did this,
Speaker 1: it's launched, it's live, and now it's over. So like, okay,
Speaker 1: we could draw inspiration from this, but I can't leverage
Speaker 1: this technology. I can't leverage this idea. It's already been done.
Speaker 1: So huge thing. That's an interesting point. Yeah, and like
Speaker 1: a big thing, and like a big thing that I
Speaker 1: pushed internally is like don't buy with us, or don't
Speaker 1: buy our tech that has like an expiration date or
Speaker 1: a shelf life, like work with us, because you could
Speaker 1: take this, we could do something and then we could
Speaker 1: evolve it. So I think with award shows to go
Speaker 1: all the way back to like the beginning of the conversation. Um,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like an end road like here it
Speaker 1: is here was the best of last year, so what's
Speaker 1: next year? And maybe Can's positioning just has to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is where we're going, and let's start to like
Speaker 1: acknowledge the companies that are helping us push in that
Speaker 1: sort of way. I love the idea of some sort
Speaker 1: of like and like. So there's a tech conference called
Speaker 1: source com that's out of Portland from the Mozilla teams,
Speaker 1: and basically, if you go and present, you have to
Speaker 1: actually bring something that's hands on, and whoever goes and
Speaker 1: attends your thing or session or workshop, um, you actually
Speaker 1: have an angle to build something at the end. So
Speaker 1: maybe cannas some applicable component where people calm and present
Speaker 1: ideas and you kind of hackathon through these things. So
Speaker 1: then you leave and CAN could get excited about something
Speaker 1: like that because they could say, well, this was built
Speaker 1: at CAN, so this is I was just you brought
Speaker 1: me back to the point that I wanted to make,
Speaker 1: is that I feel that CAN actually needs to find
Speaker 1: a way to become democratized. It is so exclusive, it
Speaker 1: is so expensive, um that it is very limited in
Speaker 1: terms of what past you need to have to get
Speaker 1: into the pel a to see the work um, when
Speaker 1: actually that work should be shown off to the world
Speaker 1: so that the you know, media planner who is just
Speaker 1: getting started but might be the most creative kids sitting
Speaker 1: in you know, insert holding company X has the opportunity
Speaker 1: to be inspired by the simplicity of what I saw
Speaker 1: in the pel A this year. And so the conversation
Speaker 1: and we're gonna take it to the Washington Post and
Speaker 1: what you're doing at the Washington Post because you've done
Speaker 1: in the what last two years pretty much Washington Post
Speaker 1: has gotten a ton of notoriety and awards right around. Um,
Speaker 1: new advertising technology and new models. How have you balance
Speaker 1: creativity and the tech side at the Washington Post? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so um one our founders Jeff Bezos, which I don't
Speaker 1: think we say enough. Well, I think people can we
Speaker 1: stop there? Sorry, so people, And we were just talking
Speaker 1: about this earlier to like people get confused sometimes they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: the Washington Post is owned by Amazon. No, the Washington
Speaker 1: Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, right, And there's a
Speaker 1: big difference. They're huge difference. And the inspiration that we
Speaker 1: get through Jeff and his time that he dedicates to
Speaker 1: the Post um is amazing. Because it's very particular. It's
Speaker 1: not how can we work with Amazon, It's not distracted
Speaker 1: with his other holding companies, you know, one of which
Speaker 1: is soon to be Whole Foods, right, so, um, but
Speaker 1: we get actual attention, you know, when it comes to
Speaker 1: what's going to best benefit journalism and how we could
Speaker 1: grow our brand and how we can be noticed in
Speaker 1: this um, you know, very congested marketplace. So we balance
Speaker 1: creativity and tech in in a variety of ways. I
Speaker 1: think you mentioned earlier the operational side of things, getting
Speaker 1: engineers in the news room. I mean when I was
Speaker 1: at hof Post, we did that. Our CTO did sit
Speaker 1: next orator in chief. But on the advertising side, we
Speaker 1: did not have engineers on the sales floor, you know,
Speaker 1: we did not have engineers within marketing. And here we do.
Speaker 1: And I think that's very crucial when it comes to
Speaker 1: being created from a tech perspective and not just being
Speaker 1: task oriented of saying, hey build this, this didn't work
Speaker 1: and so forth. You know, Um, we pushed this big
Speaker 1: idea and Paul Berry, you know, who were very much
Speaker 1: close with from Rebel Moss huff Post days and an
Speaker 1: amazing collaborator, always said, like the journey should always start
Speaker 1: once you press publish, And that's how we bring creativity
Speaker 1: and tech to everything that we do at the Post
Speaker 1: as well, like, don't prepare for something, let it go live,
Speaker 1: whether that's content, whether that's advertising, whether it's branded content,
Speaker 1: and so forth, have technology and mechanisms that help that
Speaker 1: content fly. Especially with all the data and understanding of
Speaker 1: what we have now, how can we structurally make this
Speaker 1: easy year? And what I think is key, especially when
Speaker 1: it comes to the newsroom is editors and writers and
Speaker 1: journalists should never change their strategy. Right. What they've been
Speaker 1: doing for the past hundred years works from its important
Speaker 1: is extremely important that we don't want to change that.
Speaker 1: How do we build technologies that allow them to make
Speaker 1: their job easier and also allow their content to fly farther.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go left for a second because I know
Speaker 1: we want to get really deep into the tech and
Speaker 1: and the products that you're creating. But there's an elephant
Speaker 1: in the room that I am so curious to get
Speaker 1: your perspective on, and that's and someone who sits in
Speaker 1: the far corner of the Washington Post working on all
Speaker 1: of this great tech and development people in the marketplace.
Speaker 1: In my opinion. Vast majority still have the perception that
Speaker 1: the Washington Post is a bureau for d C and
Speaker 1: its content is focused on the Beltway. And granted, this
Speaker 1: past election cycle has um done wonders, I know, But
Speaker 1: how is somebody who sits in the innovation arm of
Speaker 1: a company who from the other side of the table
Speaker 1: can be perceived as Washingtonian battle with that internally to say, hey,
Speaker 1: we need to spend this on our head, We need
Speaker 1: to get our tech and innovation at the forefront of
Speaker 1: industry conversations, UM at the right balance with what's happening
Speaker 1: in the newsroom to change perceptions about what it is
Speaker 1: we're doing here. Yeah. So um, I say this often,
Speaker 1: but it takes a company to really believe in something
Speaker 1: for it to actually happen. So in the sense of
Speaker 1: the Washington Post. When I was at the Huffton in Post,
Speaker 1: I never looked at the Washington Post as a competitor,
Speaker 1: to be completely frank like, in terms of the journalism,
Speaker 1: for sure, I mean, there are many, many, many, many
Speaker 1: politics ahead. But we were a tech company that also
Speaker 1: did media. At the Uffington Post, we were blowing everyone
Speaker 1: away at that time. And I think what happened, and
Speaker 1: of course the Jeff acquisition or the buy of the
Speaker 1: Washington Post allowed them to say, Okay, we don't need
Speaker 1: to be extremely conservative with our risks anymore. We could
Speaker 1: actually all move forward and promoting that and the Post
Speaker 1: and our leadership, and that decision has really allowed us
Speaker 1: to grow. You know, seven cent of our u S
Speaker 1: audiences in the DC area, so like nine is outside
Speaker 1: our largest audiences in California. I was going to say
Speaker 1: everyone reads the Washington Post now, especially post election, right,
Speaker 1: like everyone? And then you have all these other news
Speaker 1: organizations that are referring people to the Washington Post, one
Speaker 1: of which I love. And we've talked about news and
Speaker 1: guts with Dan, right. So I have a question, though
Speaker 1: it pisces me off when I go on to the
Speaker 1: Washington Post dot com and I go on to New
Speaker 1: York Times dot com. I am looking at newspapers digitized.
Speaker 1: Why do they look the same. So I think there's
Speaker 1: a long standing conversation about aggregation versus personalization, right, like
Speaker 1: having editors decide what's on the home page and so forth.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not an editor, so I don't want to
Speaker 1: speak for it, and um, I only want to manage
Speaker 1: what I could control. Now that being said, we had
Speaker 1: that conversation and I agree, and I think when you
Speaker 1: think about how much data we have on users, Emilio
Speaker 1: Garcia Ruez would actually say, you know what, I agree,
Speaker 1: Why does it look the same? I'm putting words in
Speaker 1: his mouth totally. So we so we um. We actually
Speaker 1: did this on the branded content side to test things
Speaker 1: like what's really cool at the post is that because
Speaker 1: we have a commercial tech arm, we can actually test
Speaker 1: these things with our advertisers, who, like you, are willing
Speaker 1: to do new different things we want. We actually right
Speaker 1: and then and and then we're able to test that
Speaker 1: see if it works, and then we can actually bring
Speaker 1: it to the court team and say, hey, is this
Speaker 1: interesting for you? Like we launched a product called postcards
Speaker 1: because of that mentality of saying, why should we deliver
Speaker 1: content the same exact way that we delivered it fifty
Speaker 1: years ago, right through print? And if we have all
Speaker 1: this data that Laura consumes video and I consume image
Speaker 1: or long form and so forth, why don't we deliver
Speaker 1: that content type to the user directly where they are,
Speaker 1: wherever they are? So can we go into your sandbox
Speaker 1: for a second, because I'm really curious to know. Um,
Speaker 1: I have two questions. One, what's the product tech that
Speaker 1: you're most excited about right now? One? And number two,
Speaker 1: do you see what the Red Group is doing as
Speaker 1: a potential way for The Washington Post to diversify revenue?
Speaker 1: Because in this day and age, and one of the
Speaker 1: things that I said that was very pervasive and can
Speaker 1: is media companies and agencies are coming together to figure
Speaker 1: out new ways to collaborate that don't necessarily include advice,
Speaker 1: but still monetizing monetize her ble. Yes, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's actually interesting. I've had conversations with multiple brands lately
Speaker 1: where I realized that they brought me in and don't
Speaker 1: want to be pitched. They just want to learn what
Speaker 1: we've done. And you're talking about but like I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: we have a whole new like consultation revenue model and
Speaker 1: it comes outartnerships, right. So so, yes, I mean the
Speaker 1: Red Group was built to um differentiate the Post. When
Speaker 1: we launched it, we announced a NAweek or in that
Speaker 1: age two years ago. When I joined, it was just myself,
Speaker 1: you know. Now now it's an actual team of ten
Speaker 1: engineers and product leads that are building these things, understanding
Speaker 1: what's happening in the marketplace. I think a great basos
Speaker 1: is um that helps. Uh. I want the book the innovation.
Speaker 1: I think Joey Joey Marburger has a deck of them.
Speaker 1: But but um, but like one big one is like
Speaker 1: what can we do that can't be done elsewhere? Like
Speaker 1: everyone when they focus on innovation is like what are
Speaker 1: we sucky at? And how do we get better at that?
Speaker 1: Where it's like, well, actually, what are we really good at?
Speaker 1: And how do we double down and get better there? Right?
Speaker 1: Like forget about what we're not good at. Will never
Speaker 1: be Facebook, right, We'll never be Twitter, will never be
Speaker 1: like all of these companies. But we are the Post, right,
Speaker 1: and we are a tech company now as well as
Speaker 1: a media company, and how can we get better there?
Speaker 1: So the investment you've seen in the Red group is
Speaker 1: clearly aligned with the revenue that we've seen from that,
Speaker 1: and it's twofold. It's like, what is being done that
Speaker 1: could be better? When everyone said the banner is dead,
Speaker 1: I said, like, the banner is not dead, but like
Speaker 1: we can make the banners somewhat better and understand that
Speaker 1: you're advertising with the Post because you want to be
Speaker 1: on the post, and our users are on the post
Speaker 1: because they want to read the post. So let's take
Speaker 1: all the hard work that you're doing and display and
Speaker 1: video and make it more applicable to our consumers. And
Speaker 1: that's through tech. So we'll build technologies that allow you
Speaker 1: to do that. Put no pressure on your side that
Speaker 1: you could go back to the CMO and say, hey, look,
Speaker 1: this is our creative that we've done. But we leverage
Speaker 1: this post technology to make it more applicable to users.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't necessarily require a media by to have access. No.
Speaker 1: I mean I often say too, is like if you
Speaker 1: want to leverage the technology, we have a SAS model, right,
Speaker 1: So like, if you don't want to run on the
Speaker 1: Washington Post, I love you too, But we're here to
Speaker 1: help you build better branding, to leverage better technology. And
Speaker 1: if you prefer to run programmatically or you prefer to
Speaker 1: run on site, that's where I think that the industry
Speaker 1: has to pivot. This is Alex and I talked about
Speaker 1: this all the time, like the ad model and the
Speaker 1: Washington Post dot com revenue stream to me and Alexa
Speaker 1: is one avenue now within the post media company that
Speaker 1: presents opportunity for brands. Well, you just talked about access
Speaker 1: to your engineers, your sas model, all of these sorts
Speaker 1: of things actually for brands who want to develop content
Speaker 1: on their own O and O as you just said,
Speaker 1: brands who are looking for ways to diversify with their
Speaker 1: own clients and business partners, these are things that they
Speaker 1: need access to because presumably maybe they don't want to
Speaker 1: develop an in house engineering team to do that. So
Speaker 1: I mean you're selling in white labeling, yeah, right, And
Speaker 1: the argument, lord, your point of view is like if
Speaker 1: everyone's about platforms, right, and if our consumers are going
Speaker 1: to consume our content on Snapchat, uh, Facebook, Google, whatever
Speaker 1: the next big thing is, then like we're not selling
Speaker 1: on our audience in five to ten years, So what's
Speaker 1: going to differentiate us? Right? And and if you could
Speaker 1: buy washpost content through Facebook cheaper, right or through Google
Speaker 1: and so forth cheaper than like, what is going to
Speaker 1: be our value play? And so us it's we're gonna
Speaker 1: build technologies. We're not gonna leverage the same third party
Speaker 1: technology that all our partners are leveraging but calling different names,
Speaker 1: like we're actually gonna build some proprietary ship that's never
Speaker 1: been done before and then go out to market and
Speaker 1: be a game changer. I think we should go a
Speaker 1: little deeper here because for folks listening, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it totally comes through. What does this mean. It means
Speaker 1: that The Washington Post starts becoming like an agnostic tech
Speaker 1: platform that you could sell. Yeah, period, right, and a
Speaker 1: lot of and a lot of um. A lot of
Speaker 1: critics will say, well, that will distract from the core mission,
Speaker 1: like like we are one a journalism media company, we
Speaker 1: always will be the benefit of what we've done again structurally,
Speaker 1: which is like the key topic here is like operations
Speaker 1: and structure, is that we built separate teams, so are
Speaker 1: publishing you know, under Shylash Prakash our CTO is a
Speaker 1: complete different team, right that focuses on building technologies that
Speaker 1: we white label that we are currently white labeling to
Speaker 1: trunk to Globe and mail to info by and the
Speaker 1: Red Group. Those technologies go into that as well, so
Speaker 1: that they could be set up in white labels. But
Speaker 1: that does not distract our core mission. So I think
Speaker 1: it probably helps your core mission, right because you're also
Speaker 1: using those as like well, when you're using those as
Speaker 1: like test Labs. I think it's interesting, right because if
Speaker 1: you can lay to Alex what Alex is saying your
Speaker 1: use cases in all of these different ways, when you
Speaker 1: can just keep calm to me and say that you know, actually,
Speaker 1: the same technology that's powering your experience on the Washington
Speaker 1: Post is also powering what happens on the daily Email,
Speaker 1: that's immediate validation to me as a buyer to say, hey,
Speaker 1: not only can I solve for my media amplification needs here,
Speaker 1: but if I'm a company that needs to create a
Speaker 1: quick ad tech product for something has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the Washington Post, who am I coming to a
Speaker 1: third party or somebody who's powering an entire mods room
Speaker 1: with it? And I wonder also, then if and this
Speaker 1: is you're going to be like roll eye roll when
Speaker 1: I say this, but a w S, Amazon right Web
Speaker 1: Services has become the platform right for cloud for pretty
Speaker 1: much everyone, pretty much everyone. I don't see modern day railroads,
Speaker 1: So why couldn't the Post be that? From a publishing standpoint,
Speaker 1: and I mean publishing for brands, publishing for publishers, right,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it becomes something that is much
Speaker 1: much bigger. I think the strength of what we're doing
Speaker 1: at the Post that and like saying how I've done
Speaker 1: this in the past, and what we're doing here is
Speaker 1: that the power of the post is key. You can
Speaker 1: just say that that's the vision. No comment, um, but
Speaker 1: that's um. That's what's very interesting. That's what makes me
Speaker 1: most excited right about being here is like, um, the
Speaker 1: fact that the power of the Post in selling our
Speaker 1: technologies is such a secret sauce when it comes to
Speaker 1: our differentiator in the marketplace. And I work on attack.
Speaker 1: I hate when people are like he leads attack and
Speaker 1: like makes me want to throw up in my mouth
Speaker 1: because because the word, the word is like so dirty now, right,
Speaker 1: it's like fraud, viewability blocking. It's like I don't want
Speaker 1: to be anywhere near that, right, Like I like to
Speaker 1: be like out in the st right Martex. But I
Speaker 1: think a lot of that is because, like those things
Speaker 1: have gotten so bad because publishers who care about users
Speaker 1: and consumers never invested in building those things. So it's
Speaker 1: always been these outside technologies coming in and solving our
Speaker 1: problems and they have no idea what the problem my
Speaker 1: got and sticking the straw in near milkshake and and
Speaker 1: like taking money, and we realize, wait, if we just
Speaker 1: look like all of these companies were built in a
Speaker 1: garage by two people, Like is that all we need
Speaker 1: to people? Right, right, but to like build these technologies,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, we're not just saving
Speaker 1: money on third parties, but we're actually different in the marketplace.
Speaker 1: So yes, I mean that's the vision. We're actually doing it.
Speaker 1: That's my vision on the commercial side. But but what
Speaker 1: I think is what I think is the coolest is
Speaker 1: that it's no bullshit, right, Like everyone talks about this.
Speaker 1: We have post polst re engage, flex play, zeus in context.
Speaker 1: That's it to me though, when you start talking about
Speaker 1: I know we have to name things because they become identifiers.
Speaker 1: But the minute we start doing this, because everyone though
Speaker 1: has a version of a name, right, And so then
Speaker 1: you get in the marketplace as a as a media
Speaker 1: marketing person, you're like, well, what's different from the Washington
Speaker 1: Post Zeus and voxes blah, right, because bank Off talks
Speaker 1: about his what is it? Chorus? Chorus, chorus and concert
Speaker 1: what like we're going from the gods. But what's interesting?
Speaker 1: But I think an alex and I always say this,
Speaker 1: it's like lead with the idea that you are a
Speaker 1: tech focused media company that is developing and building proprietary
Speaker 1: technology where the others, as we all know, And this
Speaker 1: is where I think the Washington Post stands to go
Speaker 1: after it aggressively. Are wit labeling and outsourcing that And
Speaker 1: like I'm back to your earlier point talking about that
Speaker 1: conference out in Oregon, I am a believe it when
Speaker 1: I see it, when I see that you have the
Speaker 1: ability to go there, when I actually see that I could.
Speaker 1: And one thing that I love about you specifically is
Speaker 1: that you've never been a tech person. So when Lauren
Speaker 1: I went to years ago to build out a new
Speaker 1: media product, You're like, this is totally different. This is
Speaker 1: totally new. You are so creative that you're able to
Speaker 1: take the technology and actually flip at ninety degrees to
Speaker 1: create something that's totally different. We were two girls and
Speaker 1: a guy in a garage on that part. But what's interesting,
Speaker 1: I think, would you hit on it and forget all
Speaker 1: the other jargon that I just said earlier. But like
Speaker 1: the idea of home grown proprietary tech, and there are
Speaker 1: very few I can aim on one hand who can
Speaker 1: actually go out in the marketplace right now leading media
Speaker 1: companies and say we've developed everything from scratch, no totally,
Speaker 1: and um, look, it's very risky for media companies to
Speaker 1: do that because again, that distraction factor is key. But
Speaker 1: we made that choice. That's what attracted me to come here.
Speaker 1: I mean to be honest, like, I like building technologies.
Speaker 1: I like being creative with those technologies. So as much
Speaker 1: as I love everything that's happening at the post, the
Speaker 1: investment in that was very real to your point, like
Speaker 1: the fact that we actually build products and could show
Speaker 1: them and they're tangible and other publishers are coming to
Speaker 1: you to buy them and they're coming up by them,
Speaker 1: and like what I hate about R and D And
Speaker 1: Bezos said this very early on when we presented the
Speaker 1: Red Team to him is like focus on the D right,
Speaker 1: Like develop those products like right, Like so many people
Speaker 1: in R and D forcused on the research, like oh,
Speaker 1: here's what's happening, and and the web is fast, but
Speaker 1: we're slow, so we need to be faster. And then
Speaker 1: it's like three years later. I like that focus on
Speaker 1: the day definitely the name of this episode. How do we?
Speaker 1: How do we? It's like straight off. I also like
Speaker 1: put a straw in your milkshake, So you didn't answer
Speaker 1: my other question, what is the martek our marketing tech
Speaker 1: that you were most excited about right now? So a
Speaker 1: lot of the marketing tech that we're building. That's so
Speaker 1: again I kind of got into it earlier, like how
Speaker 1: do we make everyone's life easier, like sympathizing with the
Speaker 1: client agency relationship, but also like what's new ship that's
Speaker 1: never been done before? So like while Zeus while the
Speaker 1: name and Mario, I want to name it Thorpe, but
Speaker 1: it made no I'm Greek, I have no problem with
Speaker 1: so like Zeus was faster, but like what I love
Speaker 1: about Zeus is like when we came out and said
Speaker 1: we were the fastest mobile website, everyone said, well, advertising
Speaker 1: technology is going to slow it down. And I even
Speaker 1: had conversations with Google um and like it wasn't anything
Speaker 1: on their end that was an issue, but they could
Speaker 1: and take responsibility for how other third party integrations worked
Speaker 1: and so no one had to solved. So basically the
Speaker 1: whole idea was like, Okay, your content could be fast,
Speaker 1: but ads are going to be slow, until we came
Speaker 1: in and said, let's blow this ship up right and
Speaker 1: let's pretend that we could like redo how everything works
Speaker 1: while not getting rid of technologies but keeping existing technologies
Speaker 1: and can it be faster? And three weeks of work
Speaker 1: allowed us to be fast. So that gets cool when
Speaker 1: you start talking about on demand content, right, and some
Speaker 1: of the things you guys are doing in the audio
Speaker 1: space and you're doing it separately, let's just be clear
Speaker 1: than Amazon and the Alexa that right, but talk talk
Speaker 1: about um like audio articles and things like that that
Speaker 1: you're doing. Yeah, So again going back to that educational
Speaker 1: verse operational approach. Uh, we just leverage Polly on some
Speaker 1: of our articles we're doing testing right now, which is
Speaker 1: an Amazon got it. So Amazon has a technology called
Speaker 1: Polly which basically could take content, read it, and then
Speaker 1: give you audio of those articles. So so what we
Speaker 1: realized the post again is like people are everywhere, to
Speaker 1: your point, they consume content differently. Some people like video,
Speaker 1: people are obsessed with audio. You're on the subway, you
Speaker 1: want to download a podcast. You know, we're on a
Speaker 1: podcast right now, right, So like there's all these different mediums.
Speaker 1: So so we're actually leveraging audio technology on our site
Speaker 1: for our articles in the test basically meaning some articles
Speaker 1: when you go to them, you could click to play
Speaker 1: and it'll read the article to you. So think about
Speaker 1: you're in the shower, I mean, like barely have time
Speaker 1: in the morning, right, you're walking dogs. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about it trying to read the Obama Russia article that
Speaker 1: came out like free days ago. That was so killer,
Speaker 1: but it's so long, and I was had like a
Speaker 1: million other things to do, and I'm literally running out
Speaker 1: of my house finish. I'm like, I'm running out of
Speaker 1: my house and I'm thinking, all i want to say
Speaker 1: is Washington Post read it to me. Why can't I
Speaker 1: do that? Yeah? So Polly is that? So Polly is
Speaker 1: the top I don't want to go to Washington most
Speaker 1: dot com. I just want to be able to say,
Speaker 1: Washington Post read it to me on your phone. Yea,
Speaker 1: we have to call Apple, but like probably, but yes,
Speaker 1: I mean those are the investments right that we're looking
Speaker 1: to do. Like, no, to your point earlier, the way
Speaker 1: that content is delivered to you is very similar to
Speaker 1: the way it was delivered to you fifty years I mean, apps,
Speaker 1: can I just go back? Sorry? Apple News should be
Speaker 1: all over that, and they should be a feature that
Speaker 1: they offer publishers, why wouldn't they do that now? Right?
Speaker 1: A lot of that so like to go really underneath
Speaker 1: the covers, Like it's not easy for platforms broker these
Speaker 1: relationships with the publishers, Like the post is the easiest,
Speaker 1: I would argue, because we love taking risks and we
Speaker 1: love testing, like the idea is like we'll test anything,
Speaker 1: like of course if it's going to damage our reputation
Speaker 1: or our company. We would never be like me, you'll
Speaker 1: test anything that you have like a clear value prop
Speaker 1: for right, You're like, okay, this could be valuable, right,
Speaker 1: But so many publishers are like again going back to
Speaker 1: that operational thing, it's like, well, how much money is
Speaker 1: it gonna make me tomorrow? And is this worth it?
Speaker 1: And should we take the time. So you think about
Speaker 1: Apple News when they first came out, Um, they were saying, hey,
Speaker 1: look your sales team could sell the yea and like
Speaker 1: do all these things. But it's like, so now I
Speaker 1: have to teach my sales team something new. The ad
Speaker 1: sizes at that point we're different. It's too confusing, and
Speaker 1: then publishers give up. So I think for Apple a
Speaker 1: lot of it is not just hey, let's build audio
Speaker 1: technology to read articles. It's how do we convince these
Speaker 1: publishers that it's worth their time to ingest it and
Speaker 1: that they're going to actually see value in dollars? No
Speaker 1: bineriner to me, Well, it sounds like a brand could
Speaker 1: put this together and propose it now, So that's how
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do it so like so like my
Speaker 1: whole bread and butter is that it's like, I rather
Speaker 1: not wait for all of these rules and how a
Speaker 1: hundred people at the Washington Post want to broker relationship.
Speaker 1: When we do it through the ad side, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's dollars, we could do this. It could live anywhere,
Speaker 1: here's the resources, and let's build it. So like for me,
Speaker 1: and it's not bullshit, it's like a lot of the
Speaker 1: innovation I firmly believe that happens in media happens because
Speaker 1: of relationships with brands. And I just want to go
Speaker 1: back to that flood. Can't rewind what replay that A
Speaker 1: lot of the innovation I firmly believe that happens in
Speaker 1: media happens because of relationships with brands, because that is
Speaker 1: so true, and no one ever says that, yes, I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll dropped to Mike, So I have one quick question.
Speaker 1: Who is a brand that you are dying to work
Speaker 1: with and you haven't worked with yet that I'm dying
Speaker 1: to work with and haven't worked with it. Oh man,
Speaker 1: that's tough. Um, take your time, all right. I love, No,
Speaker 1: it's fine, I love. I feel like entertainment brands are
Speaker 1: so hard to work with when it comes to like
Speaker 1: diving deep in being able to collaborate because everything needs
Speaker 1: to be done in five days. So like I remember
Speaker 1: at HuffPo, we we used to do branded content early,
Speaker 1: like in two thousand ten um, which by the way,
Speaker 1: we created brand of content. Let's make sure we know
Speaker 1: you want to put that, you want to put that
Speaker 1: in there, but anyway, on the record, on the record,
Speaker 1: all of that branded content, right was like supplied content
Speaker 1: because they had to create it so quickly. And I
Speaker 1: think the Sony's right, and those brands, like, while we
Speaker 1: work with them, it's never like fully immersive because we
Speaker 1: don't have the time right given to us because the
Speaker 1: movie is launching and they need to get it out
Speaker 1: there and they have the assets to do so. So
Speaker 1: for me, what I think would be really fun is
Speaker 1: like in the entertainment category, especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: publishers in the tech that we're building and what we
Speaker 1: could really see there that would be an exciting one
Speaker 1: for us. Let's bring let's bring him into our standbox
Speaker 1: and all new killed by hill by d I. Y,
Speaker 1: you've done this before? Yeah, I forgot. What would you kill? Well,
Speaker 1: don't say it again. What would you kill? What would
Speaker 1: you buy? And what would you do yourself? Oh? Yes,
Speaker 1: and I remember this, I remember anything. So, like, ideally
Speaker 1: I would kill all reliance on outside technology. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've made a key investment in building these things at
Speaker 1: Rebel Mouse everywhere else. I'm like, I love my friends
Speaker 1: that work at those companies, but they know that I'm
Speaker 1: the hardest person to work with when it comes to
Speaker 1: that because if they come in along like they come
Speaker 1: in and present to me, it's like they better be
Speaker 1: careful because if it looks too good, I'm gonna copy it, right,
Speaker 1: So like so like that, so you want to make
Speaker 1: everyone a technologist? Yes, okay, check all right? What I
Speaker 1: would buy is Gawker. Oh yes, we talked about that
Speaker 1: last right and and like I still believe it, And
Speaker 1: I watched Nobody Speaks on Netflix have you watched. It's
Speaker 1: amazing and it just really shows you, like that fine
Speaker 1: line and what Gawker was able to do and how
Speaker 1: they were literally like undercut and attacked and and what
Speaker 1: basically happened. But the value of that brand, I mean
Speaker 1: even for me as a New Yorker when Gawker was
Speaker 1: like the New York to like becoming you know, this
Speaker 1: massive skilled operation. To also how they I mean they
Speaker 1: were the first to e commerce, right, it was like
Speaker 1: GisMo and inventing a tremendous tech stack in their last
Speaker 1: tremendous a few weeks. Yeah, I mean they're still doing Kinja.
Speaker 1: I mean Kinja is their tech stack and it's amazing.
Speaker 1: So like I would one buy them, Um, so you'd
Speaker 1: buy you buy Gawker, right, I buy Gawker and then
Speaker 1: do it yourself. Every kind of like that was kind
Speaker 1: of your dear first one instead of kill is kind
Speaker 1: of your d I Y. I think everything so like
Speaker 1: something that's interesting for d I Y. I think you
Speaker 1: see brands publishers taking different approaches where they're like buying
Speaker 1: things to help be relevant in the space. And I
Speaker 1: think that's key. I mean, I think the New York
Speaker 1: Times buying wire Cutter was genius because it's very hard
Speaker 1: for The New York Times to build their own e
Speaker 1: commerce value when that's not critical to their mission. But
Speaker 1: they just bought one of the bigger ones. So like,
Speaker 1: for someone who does everything d I Y, I'd say
Speaker 1: tread carefully with D I Y because I think what
Speaker 1: you often find is that with D I Y, whether
Speaker 1: like we could build tech because we had the investment,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't encourage every publisher to do it, while I
Speaker 1: think it's crucial for them to survive to do it,
Speaker 1: to differentiate themselves and may kill them in the process. Right,
Speaker 1: So like presumably by foods, yeah, I mean those that
Speaker 1: was and the stock one up that never happens. So
Speaker 1: like so like, I mean everything Bezos does is absolutely
Speaker 1: um amazing. He hits gold right now. Yeah, So I'll
Speaker 1: leave you with that. So if people want to develop
Speaker 1: with you, where can they find you? They can find
Speaker 1: me a Jared dot Dicker outwatch Bow. They can find
Speaker 1: me on LinkedIn, they can find me on Twitter, Jared Dicker,
Speaker 1: Jared Dicker, I'm Jared Dicker across the board. If they
Speaker 1: want to see my twins. I was just gonna say
Speaker 1: the ticker dudes, and they want to see my twins
Speaker 1: and my dogs. They could follow Jared Dicker on Instagram
Speaker 1: Dick dud dudes, congratulations on. Thank you so much. They rock,
Speaker 1: Are you rock? And thank you so much for coming by.
Speaker 1: We always love when you're here. It's always the work,
Speaker 1: flash of ideas and excitement and we appreciate everything that
Speaker 1: you do to make us better. So thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: Thanks Jared Dicker, everyone special thanks to Cameron Drew's our producer,
Speaker 1: Andy Bowers, Matt Sirk. This is our episode ten, so
Speaker 1: thanks for being big listeners, big fans talking to us
Speaker 1: on Twitter, face Book, Instagram. At Atlantia Podcast, keep doing it,
Speaker 1: great emails, great reviews. Really appreciate everyone who's listening and
Speaker 1: giving us a lot of feedback. We'll see out there.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in two weeks within all New Atlandia
Speaker 1: m H Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own