1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I am so excited to bring y'all literally a genius. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I just don't even know how to call 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: her anything but a genius. It is Doctor pre of Banergy. 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: She is a BORED certified forensic pathologist. She did her 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: residency at the Johns Hopkins. She's an adjunct professor at 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: Boston University School of Medicine. She has performed over three 7 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: thousand autopsies. She has performed over one hundred and fifty 8 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: homicide autopsies. She's worked on high profile cases like Breonna Taylor. 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: She's done military cases and cases for the NSA. She 10 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: is a mother, a wife, a cat mom, and a 11 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: dog mom. And let me tell y'all, song you know 12 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: how you say you could always trust somebody who children 13 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: and animals trust. I witnessed this my self. We were 14 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: doing a training in North Carolina and there were a 15 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: group of puppies. This puppy chose Doctor Priya. It was instant, 16 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: it was solid. I've never seen anything like it. We 17 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: drove to the training together, and we drove home together 18 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: with that puppy because there was no way she could 19 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: leave her there. So y'all, we're going to just do 20 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: some pathology with doctor Pria. So doctor, welcome to Zone seven. 21 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for having me. That's a very flattering introduction. 22 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: I'm smiling and a little embarrassed. I don't know, but yeah, everything, 23 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for that kindness. And yes, I'm a proud 24 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: dog mom, multiple dog momple cat mom and slice right, 25 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: Slice and dice. Slice is the newest. 26 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: Puppy Slice and dice. And let me tell you you 27 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: have an exceptional child. And you know, we all went 28 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: on a safari, those of y'all that saw that on 29 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: social media, and they were all adults, all experts in 30 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: their field. And when I tell you, that child did 31 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: not miss a beat with any of them, polite, great conversation. Funny, 32 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, how old is she? There's no way she's eleven. 33 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: But just a great time. And it wasn't like she 34 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: behaved for an hour. I spent day after day after 35 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: day after day with her in a car for twelve hours. 36 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: I know, had a lot of time, so it wasn't 37 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: like she was faking y'all. 38 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: So now no, and actually the best part is, I 39 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: don't know if I told you, but we're going back. 40 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: She said her lifetime bucket list was to stay at 41 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: the Giraffe Hotel. So for her birthday and Christmas, and 42 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: I would say everything for the year. We're doing that. 43 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: In December, I got a reservation. 44 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: That sounds so necessary. She just connected, right, I mean, 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: she loves animals. You can tell. There's no better birthday. 46 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: So that's awesome. There you go, all right, So we're 47 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: going to jump into this pathologies with doctor Priya. One 48 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: thing that I think is so important, and the thing 49 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: that I think I love most about law enforcement is 50 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: the teamwork. And you get it from all sides. You 51 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: get it from a lot of different places. You get 52 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: it from prosecutors and other investigators and detectives, from other 53 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: departments and divisions and agencies. But one that is often 54 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: overlooked is that camaraderie and that teamwork from the medical examiner. 55 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: And I know you and I talked about this, but 56 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to just toss it right to you and 57 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 1: not wait another second. John O'Keeffe, if he had been 58 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: your patient, if you had received that body, walk me 59 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: through what you would have done step by step. 60 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: Sure, And I think you know you got to sort 61 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: of understand. I want to talk about my approach to 62 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: autopsies and you know, I'm not that far from the case, right. 63 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: I'm in Rhode Island. That's where I practiced over eleven years. 64 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: I am in private practice now I don't work for 65 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: the state anymore, but I have a lengthy, you know 66 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: tenure with the state and the practice is there, so 67 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: you know, I used to go to crime scenes and 68 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: intimately work with crime scene and homicide detectives. And you know, 69 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: at the scenes here it's a small enough state with 70 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: multiple jurisdictions. Sometimes even the police she would show up, 71 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, definitely the ags. We have attorney generals here, 72 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: district attorneys whatever, you know, they're called in their respective jurisdictions. 73 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: But it was sort of all boots on the ground 74 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: when it was a you know, suspicious death. I didn't 75 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: go to every death, but my very well trained investigators did. 76 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: But when necessary, I was called, you know, when being 77 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 2: on call. So it's twenty four to seven for at 78 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: least a week at a time. You know, I've I've 79 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: lost counted how many scenes I went to. And given 80 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: that I'm in New England right next door to Massachusetts, 81 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: detum Or Canton, I think was only a forty five 82 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 2: minute drive from me, I've testified in the same courtroom 83 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: actually with the same judge before, right before the trial started. 84 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: In fact, I had another case so unrelated, but exactly 85 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: that courtroom with Judge Canoni. So nonetheless, like you have 86 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: to look at it in context. What I like to 87 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 2: say is, you know, I actually like crime scene visits, 88 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: crime scene work, if you will, because you really get 89 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: a sense of what's going on, what's known and what's unknown. Right, 90 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: so you're you're right there. 91 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: I think nothing takes the place, Nothing. 92 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: Takes the place, And you know, obviously we can't be 93 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: there at all times, which is why we have amazing 94 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: investigators that take detailed reports and report back in the photos. 95 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: But you know, I think the biggest thing I always 96 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 2: tell people is I look at the world in a 97 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: very different way, sort of effect of my work, you know, like, 98 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: and I'm sure you do too. It's like we don't 99 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: just walk through the world not noticing what's around us, 100 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: what's out of place, what's different. Oh, you know, if 101 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: you walked into my house today, everything's a mess because 102 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: I had construction going on, you know, so that it's 103 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 2: immediately telling that there's painters tape, and you know, things 104 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: are out of sorts. Well, why because there's construction, Like 105 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: you know what that means, and that should be a clue. 106 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: There's people, Well you know that means there are other 107 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: people in the house, right, like normal people that aren't 108 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: here are here because construction's going. So then you have 109 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: to account for those people. Does that make sense? Like 110 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: that automatically leads you down that pathway And so if 111 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: we come back to John O'Keefe, what you have to 112 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: think about is it's terrible weather, very inexperienced staff, inexperienced 113 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: or poorly trained or whatever it is, right, Like, I 114 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: don't know if I'm making excuses or the right excuses, 115 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: but we know the investigation was poorly handled, right and 116 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: I I what really makes me mad is that they 117 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: could drive back from a bar in the snow, but 118 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: they couldn't go a mile to the police station to 119 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: get evidence containers. Right, So it's like, obviously there's sloppy 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: handling of the scene. But you know, we've all been 121 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: in scenes that are less than ideal. I mean I've 122 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 2: had to get into swampy water, use an eight TV 123 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 2: to go into forested areas. Like there's just not you know, 124 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: we always joke, right, the crime see never has any lighting. 125 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: It's always at dark, it's always in the mud, it's 126 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: always in the rain or the snow, always, like it's 127 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: Murphy's law. And so that's fine. Like even if it's 128 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: the worst case scenario like a snowstorm, they should have 129 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: secured the scene. You can revisit it in the daylight, right, 130 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: Like you don't have to gather everything, but you make 131 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: a barrier, you secure it. And maybe I'm overstepping a 132 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: little because that's not my job, right, I mean, we 133 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: work collaboratively at the scene, and I would say, hey, 134 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: I'm gonna grab the body, photograph it in place, and 135 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: then let's put markers so I can come back tomorrow 136 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: in the daylight and we can do more searching, right, Like, honestly, 137 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: things were frozen in place, right given the nature of 138 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: the weather, so it's not going anywhere. You actually sort 139 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 2: of can just barricade it off and have a police car, 140 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: you know, guard it overnight and then when it's better 141 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: lit and maybe the storm has passed. You know, that 142 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: would really be the next best step. So you know, 143 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: I've been in situations where it's the first homicide in 144 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: ten twenty years in a particular jurisdiction, and they're looking 145 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: to me to say what to do, and I'm like, whoa, whoa. 146 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: I'm not a detective. I'm here to help you, but 147 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: I can't tell you how to do your investigation. I 148 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: can make suggestions, right and legally, you know, they don't 149 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: have to listen to me because I'm not the one 150 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: running the investigation. I'm only responsible for the body at 151 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,479 Speaker 2: the scene, like you know, the medical examiner, uh investigator 152 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: and myself. If we're at a scene, that's what the 153 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: responsibility was. And so you know, of course that's photographed 154 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 2: and examined, but then we whisk the body away and 155 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: go from there. Obviously there's so many details about the 156 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 2: body that needed to be examined, and you know, notably 157 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: in Massachusetts, the EMMY or you know, that staff doesn't 158 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 2: go to the scene, and mister O'Keeffe, if I remember correctly, 159 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: went to the hospital, So there wasn't really what's the 160 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: condition of the body at the scene, you know. Nonetheless, 161 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: that's where I would start, right like is he dressed appropriately? 162 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: You know, does he show any frost bite? Right? Being 163 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: in that condition? You know, what trauma is there? We 164 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: would X ray him. If I don't know what's going on, 165 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: I would have probably gotten fingernail clippings and pulled head 166 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: hair just because I'm paranoid. And let's just pull that 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 2: trace evidence, collect all his clothes, you know, let's see 168 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: what this is about, and document that I think it 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: was at least one shoe wasn't there, right, So it's 170 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: important to know what's there, but what's not there and 171 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: relay that information back to police, you know. 172 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: And doctor Priya. If I could just be real clear 173 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: for everybody, just in case they don't know. When I 174 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: work a crime scene, that crime scene belongs to me, 175 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: but that body belongs to doctor Priya. So I just 176 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: want everybody to understand it. It goes to the medical examiner. 177 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't I don't process the body in any way. 178 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: Right, And I mean, you know, we can have a 179 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: collaborative effort in the autopsy suite once the body is 180 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: brought back, like I would take evidence and then submit 181 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 2: it to you for further test, you know, submission for testing. 182 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: And again that's better done in a controlled situation like 183 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: an autopsy suite. Right in the blizzard. I'm not gonna 184 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: take fingernail clippings that makes no sense. And it may 185 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: be that even I don't you know, I whisked the 186 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: body away and then examine it back at the office, 187 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 2: you know, because the conditions are so bad. But it 188 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: seemed like there are huge gaps in the thought process 189 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: when they handled the case overall. I actually, you know, 190 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: truly do believe that the autopsy was done well. You know, 191 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: I listened to the testimony of the doctor, the doctors 192 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: on the first trial, and the doctor, uh, the primary 193 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: pathologist on the second trial. So you know, we've been 194 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: through it sort of twice, and I think, you know, 195 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: I fall given what we know and don't know, I 196 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: actually concur with the conclusions that were made. You just 197 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: can't tell undetermined, you know, undetermined, undetermined manner. Now you 198 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: know the cause, if you will, of death. So there's 199 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: the cause of death and the manner of death. Cause 200 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: of death is why did he die? Well, he had 201 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: head trauma, right, that killed him, blunt head trauma. Now 202 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: we don't know under which circumstances, whether it was a 203 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: car strike or a slip and fall or something else. Right, 204 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: So that's why the manner is undetermined. We don't know 205 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 2: if it's an accident homicide whatever. But that's okay, I 206 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: mean you have to you know, we're not omniscient, We're 207 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: this is not TV, and so we can only say 208 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: what is defendable in court, right and obviously this case, 209 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, exemplifies that that it Every little word you 210 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: write is going to be examined and torn apart in court. 211 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: And so I think her testimony was excellent, Doctor Sporty Bellow. 212 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: I think the autopsy was thorough. But that really shows 213 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: you that it's one part of the puzzle, not the 214 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 2: entire puzzle. You can't just rely on the me too. 215 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,479 Speaker 2: There's only the Emmy's going to fix a bad investigation 216 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: or a lack thereof or a lack of interviewing, you know, 217 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: witnesses or ring cameras or whatever was or was not done. 218 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: And so that this case really highlights that is, you know, 219 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: they wanted to sort of, I don't know, it seemed 220 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: like they wanted the Emmy to come and be the 221 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: super woman and say, Ahi, I have all the answers 222 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: and we know that's not how it works. 223 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,479 Speaker 1: Well, you know, one thing that I think is crucial 224 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: about the autopsy is the family of the victim. They're 225 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: going to get answers, whether it's the answer they want 226 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: it or not. But having the truth, having facts, being 227 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: able to show somebody this is his a order. You 228 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: can see it severed. I mean that you're just gently explaining. Well, 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: that allows them to have some acceptance, which gives them peace, 230 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: which means they can move forward. So when you to 231 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,239 Speaker 1: me as a detective, not only are going to dismiss 232 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: the medical examiner, but you're going to call her names, 233 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: and then you're just going to go in another direction 234 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: completely opposite of what she sees, what she's notated, and 235 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: what she has explained. 236 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: Sure, and really that's communication is really a huge part 237 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 2: of the game. You know, I don't want to say game, 238 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: but you know, the actual role that you play. So 239 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: whether it comes down to communicating with a family or 240 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: communicating to the court, or communicating to detectives, you have 241 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: different audiences, if you will, but you're still communicating, you know. 242 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: So if I just read you the medical blah blah 243 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: blah from the report, no one's gonna understand that everybody 244 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: can read a piece of paper. You have to really 245 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: help interpret that. And it's interesting you say that because 246 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: you know that we're on this because That's really what. 247 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: After I transitioned away from my state job because my 248 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: mom was critically ill during COVID, I got multiple calls 249 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: from families crying on the phone, please do private autopsy. 250 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: I don't know why my loved one died. And during COVID, 251 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: you know, there was a lot of restrictions on autops 252 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: and what the offices could and could not examine or handle, 253 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: and procedures changed all throughout. And that, you know, after 254 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: I got three calls in one week, I sort of 255 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: took it as a signal from above, you know that 256 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: maybe I should start doing this. And really, the most 257 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: common customer I have are families. It's not lawyers that 258 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: want to sue. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, 259 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: that's a minority of cases, and I spend a lot 260 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: of time counseling. I probably turned away fifty percent of 261 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: my cases because, you know, whether it be the CSI 262 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: effect from TV or you know, crime shows, whatever, families 263 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: think that we can just tell everything from the autopsy. 264 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: So I'm always talking to them. I probably spend half 265 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: an hour just you know, asking questions, saying, what do 266 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: you want from this autopsy? What is the question to 267 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: be answered. What are you know? What is your what 268 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: do you want out of this exam from me? I 269 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: need to be able to serve a purpose, to really 270 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: cut into someone's body, right, I mean, it's still a 271 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: very invasive medical procedure. That's why I get permission from 272 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: the family, right, I get written permission. Yes, you can 273 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 2: proceed with this. And but you know, once you do, 274 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: like what I think is a thorough screening, and you say, look, 275 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: I can't tell you you know, did COVID happen first, 276 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: or the heart attack happened first, or you know, was 277 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: it the cancer or COVID kill him? You know, like 278 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: because they're both there. You know, did the pneumonia come 279 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: from the lung cancer or COVID? I don't know, right, 280 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: because they both affect the lung. You know, sometimes I 281 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: can't be more specific, but I can say these are 282 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: both really bad, and they're like, ohh okay, like you 283 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: know that, Yeah, he was really suffering with the lung 284 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: cancer and his immune system was weak and that's why 285 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 2: he got COVID and died. Like, I think that completes 286 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: the circle, just as an example, and that's what I mean. 287 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: You know, we're not talking about malpractice. We're just talking 288 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: about closure, and really that's what they're paying for. And 289 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: you know, I hate to say it, there's a almost 290 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 2: like a psychotherapy component to it, right, Like once you 291 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 2: get the autopsy results, like I make it a point 292 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: to call my families right after the autopsy. Hey, I 293 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: did the autopsy. The body's are going to be released. 294 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: These are my findings. Now they're not in a report yet. 295 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: That's going to take me time. And if I'm sending 296 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: slides or whatnot for more diagnoses, like I can tell 297 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: them that you know that this is still in the works. 298 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: I don't have all the answers, but you know, there 299 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: was times when I found a heart attack, I found 300 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: a stroke, I found undiagnosed cancer, and it you know 301 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 2: it almost I hate to say it makes me feel 302 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: good to share something when I have that aha. 303 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: Moment, and sometimes things can be missed if you're not 304 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: given all the information. Let me tell you a true story. 305 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: I have a friend, definitely not one of my sisters. 306 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: But when Sheila goes to the doctor and he's like, 307 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: how you doing, how you feeling great? I feel wonderful, 308 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: no problems, nothing at all is wrong. She almost believes 309 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: if there's something wrong, he'll find it. But she doesn't 310 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: want to complain about, oh my hand feels a little weak, 311 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: or I've got tingling in my feed or my vision 312 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: is blurry sometimes, like she doesn't want to give him 313 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: any roadmap to something wrong. 314 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: And that's hard, you know, it is hard because handicapped exactly. 315 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: And my sisters, you know, and my sisters that are 316 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: nurses are like, Sheila, you've got a telling that your 317 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: side has been hurting for two months. 318 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: Because we're not going to see that, right, like right, 319 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 2: And you know, obviously, when I'm dealing with an autopsy, 320 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 2: I asked what state were they in six months ago, 321 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: three months ago? When's the last time to take their doctor? Oh? 322 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: I've gotten you know, I mean, I think we live, 323 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: you know, we do with the Lake community. We deal 324 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: with people from all walks of life. Right, And you say, 325 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: does he have any medical history? No? Did he take 326 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: any medicines? Oh? Yes? And then you're like, oh, well 327 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 2: that's for diabetes, Oh, that's for hypertension, that's for cholesterol. 328 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my, we have a whole litany of 329 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: things going on, even though they don't, you know, so 330 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 2: just digging around but if you don't tell me that information, 331 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to find it. And 332 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: if he was having I don't know, some sort of tingling, 333 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: that's not in the autopsy, right, that's when he was alive, 334 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: And so you can't, you know, you try to get 335 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 2: as much information as you can and then go forward. 336 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I look at it the 337 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: autopsy as not just a medical procedure, but like, especially 338 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: in my business, like a customer service, does that make sense? 339 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: Like I am hired by the family to answer questions 340 00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: for them, and at that point, it's not just finding data, 341 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 2: but it's also communicating it back to them in an 342 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: understandable way. If I tell them, oh, he had a 343 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: you know, a rhythmia, this kind of a rhythmia, or 344 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: you know, this kind of heart attack that's exactly you know, 345 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: eight hours old, they're gonna be like, what you know? 346 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: But if I just say he had a heart attack 347 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: and then his heart stop beating, they'll be like, oh, okay, 348 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, so you have to make it 349 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: understandable as well, And so that's what gives the closure, 350 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: you know. And I think when we look at any case, 351 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: whether it's personal, you know, whether it's just a family 352 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: not just someone's family member died, or something high profile, 353 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: which is the other end of the spectrum, like John O'Keefe. 354 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: Everybody's just looking for closure. What happened? Right that that's 355 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: the big what happened? Why did this happen? And sometimes 356 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: that's much easier to determine at the autopsy, and sometimes 357 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 2: it's not right, like in John O'Keefe's case, what has 358 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: and was in the sense of the injuries are there, right, 359 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 2: those are easy to document. It's how did this happen? 360 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: That was left up to the investigation. And no matter 361 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 2: how many special test X rays specialists look at the 362 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: brain the body, we're not going to be able to 363 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: tell them more than what was there. 364 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: Well, I want to tell everybody that you came to 365 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: Atlanta and you did a law enforcement training for me 366 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: that was lights out. I mean it was incredible. But 367 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: you did two things. One right off the bat, y'all, 368 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: she gave respect and honor to every person we were 369 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: about to see on a slide. She made sure everybody 370 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: understood this is somebody's loved one and they have given 371 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: a very private part of themselves so that law enforcement 372 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: can be better at their job. And the second thing 373 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: you did, you brought slies with you. 374 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: I did. I did, yes, because you know, I think 375 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 2: it's heavy, right. 376 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: It's heavy, it's heavy. I saw these grown homicide men, 377 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: many of them with former military, hugging Slice, holding her, 378 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: rocking her back and forth, feeding her treats and. 379 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 2: Then looking at the pictures right, and then looking at 380 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: the pictures. 381 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And nobody left there upset. Nobody left there 382 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: like man, I was, you know, brought back to a 383 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: place I didn't want to go. It made me remember 384 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: the hardest case ever worked. All of them are like, okay, slie, 385 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: see you next time. You know, it was phenomenal, well good. 386 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: And I do I do want to say that, you know, 387 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: I have certain rules, and I think I made it 388 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: clear that, like I don't distribute photos. They are real 389 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: life examples. That's how you know anything in a research article, 390 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: whether it's pathology or something else, it's you know, medicine. 391 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: We learned from experience. So all those pictures are made 392 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: of anonymous So like even anywhere that I show them, 393 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: no one's going to be able to say that's my brother, sister, mother, cousin. 394 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's just focusing on the finding and 395 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: making it as anonymous as possible, and still still showing, 396 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: you know, the pertinent stuff. So that's really where it's at. 397 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: And even when I taught graduate school undergraduate you know residents, 398 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: I still teach them. I do not distribute any pictures. 399 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: There's always a what I call like an anonymous outline. 400 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 2: You can have my words because the words are mine 401 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: the day, you know, explain explanations, but never are the 402 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: photographs distributed, and that distributed. And if you recall, like 403 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: even at the autopsy of John O'Keefe, you know, even 404 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: when things are shown online or you know, through the media, 405 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: I think even something like court TV, all those you 406 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: know networks are very respect full and not showing autopsy photos. 407 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: I agree because that you know, and when it's a 408 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: known case, I eat, like this is the trial. You know, 409 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 2: John o'keef's death. We know who the decedent is and 410 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 2: it I mean, I can't even imagine how hard it 411 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: is for his family. We saw his mom there and 412 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 2: brothers and whatnot, like they know it's him even just 413 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: hearing the words, but to see it visually would be 414 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: very disturbing. 415 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: They deserved it better. John o'keef deserved better. There's just 416 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: no question about it. Doctor Preadbantagy, I appreciate you and y'all. 417 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: She'll be back next Monday. We're going to talk about 418 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: some cases that are unusual, some fact find admissions she 419 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: was on, some conclusions that she came to that will 420 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: blow your mind. And then she'll weigh in occasionally on 421 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: some famous cases too. But you know, for the rookies 422 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: and the young detectives that are listening, I want to 423 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: tell you something. It is okay that there is somebody 424 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: smarter than you. You need to be grateful that there 425 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: are people out there smarter than you. Otherwise we have limits, 426 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: and I don't want to limit. I don't know what 427 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: doctor Pria's SAT score was, but I don't know either, 428 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it was higher than mine. So 429 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: I appreciate her willing to just share her genius and 430 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: her brilliance and her experience because I think we are 431 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: all going to benefit. So I appreciate you. 432 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. I love sharing, I 433 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 2: love talking about this stuff. 434 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: Well, we'll see y'all next Monday. Own Pathology with dtor 435 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: Priya