1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Null. They call 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: to know. Welcome back. In the first part of our series, 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: we explored the history of Guantanamo Bay, including the centuries 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: long obsession that so many foreign powers have had with 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: controlling it. And, as we said now our previous episode, 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: for most of the world today, the word Guantanamo no 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: longer describes just that southern Bay and Harbor area in 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: the nation of Cuba. The word instead means one and 16 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: one thing only, the world's most notorious prison. So now 17 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: we're diving into the deep water. What's going on in Gitmo? 18 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: Here are the facts. So for many many people in 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: the US and across the planet, this detention center occupies 20 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: a strange, nebulous, dodgy legal space. Officially, it opened as 21 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: a temporary facility and the first twenty people detained there 22 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: and when we hear them called detainees all the time 23 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: in the news, they were transported there on January eleven 24 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two. Eventually, over the next few years, 25 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of prisoners from multiple countries would find themselves at GETMO. 26 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: All in all, there have been around seven hundred and 27 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: eighty detainees held at GETMO at some point since it opened, 28 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: and currently as we record this, there are thirty nine 29 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: detainees still held there, many of whom have never been 30 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: charged with a crime m HM. And and that's remember 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: from our last episode. That's after the nineties when Haitian 32 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: refugees were kept there as well as a few other 33 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: people were kept there, specifically in Camp x Ray that 34 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about. Well, campra x Ray is 35 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: one of the places that we're gonna be talking about. 36 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: But what we're reference referencing right now as part of 37 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: GETMO is Camp x Ray, this outdoor cage like thing. 38 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: And after the attacks on New York, Pennsylvania the Pentagon 39 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: in September of two thousand and one, the Bush Administration Jr. 40 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: By the way, launched what they called the War on Terror. 41 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: So starting two thousand and two, the Guantanamo Obay Detention Camp, 42 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: which is often simply referred to as GETM, was constructed 43 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: in several stages. It's a bit, uh, it's a bit 44 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: misleading maybe for some people, because Guantanamo Obey the detention 45 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: camp is part of the larger naval operation and the 46 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: camp itself is actually several different camps, some of which 47 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: have closed, uh, some of which are more transparent than others. 48 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: Camp x Ray, which you just mentioned, Matt, is now closed. 49 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: This was that camp with the chain link fences. This 50 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: was this was the site of the photographs that sparked 51 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: international outcry and prompted the US public to ask some 52 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: very difficult questions about, you know, what what the ultimate 53 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: end of this enterprise would be. But there were other 54 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: camps too, Yeah, that's right. Camp Extray was closed, but 55 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: it was replaced by Camp Delta, which had some SubCamps 56 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: within at Camp Echo, Camp Iguana, which was another very 57 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: controversial site in two thousand two. This camp actually held 58 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 1: children detainees. And then you had the super luxurious sounding 59 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: Camp Platinum, But I have a feeling it wasn't as 60 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: fancy as it might sound um and you just to 61 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: stay on here for one second. You'll see videos online 62 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: of sub sections of Camp Delta referred to as like 63 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: Site four, Site five, things like this. You can find 64 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: that specifically in a Vice documentary that was made in 65 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: that's where you may see that directly, where you actually 66 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: see the sign that says Site five. Yeah, these are references. 67 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: The names can become a little bit confused, using because 68 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: it refers to things like one through six detention areas, right, 69 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: and and we'll we'll see how those divisions work. But 70 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: nol I, I agree. I suspect you're right about Camp 71 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Platinum because these camps are These camps are not places 72 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: you want to live or hang out. They're not created equal, 73 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: and they have different levels of amenities or comforts. And 74 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: when we say amenities, we don't mean super posh stuff 75 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: like Jacuzzi is obviously, uh. These detainees are housed in 76 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: different areas depending upon their level of cooperation with guards 77 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: and interrogators, and they also clearly differ in their level 78 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: of transparency. Until two thousand and eleven, the US public 79 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: did not know about something called Camp five Echo. Camp 80 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: five Echo is not the same thing as Camp five. 81 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: See how these names be confusing. Camp five Echo was 82 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: what was called a what is called a disciplinary block. 83 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: But then there was also Camp Echo, right yep. And 84 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: there was also Camp Strawberry Fields. Camp No. The camps 85 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: go on. Camp Strawberry Fields sounds magical. Can I can 86 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: I go there? I don't know. I don't I don't 87 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: think I want to go there. Um No, it's true. 88 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: And then this is all wrapped up in the like 89 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: you said, been this idea of the war on terror, 90 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: which will get more into it, but to me has 91 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: always sort of ended up feeling like the war on drugs. 92 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's a never ending war, uh, where you 93 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: never really make a huge dent in the goal that 94 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: you've laid out. Yeah, war on an idea is a 95 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: difficult war to win because it's incredibly difficult, could argue, 96 00:06:54,760 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: virtually impossible to find a clear ending point for a 97 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: conflict with a concept. Right. This means that there's not 98 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: there's not one nation state that can sign a surrender, right. 99 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: There are maybe representatives of factions of groups who can 100 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: sign over some cessation of hostilities, but they don't speak 101 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: for everyone, because there's not one person who speaks for 102 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: the entirety of an idea, nor does that one person 103 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: speak for every other person's interpretation of that idea. And 104 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, there's also a great question. I've raised this 105 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: question in the past. Um, the answer can be kind 106 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: of depressing. But how come there aren't more things like 107 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: a war on a literacy? How come there aren't things 108 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: like a a war on you know, easily preventable medical conditions. 109 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: You know, there was a short lived war on poverty, 110 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: but it didn't seem to quite gain as much traction 111 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: as the national consciousness. And like I said, well, we'll 112 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the war on terror 113 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: in a moment. For now, let's focus on the arguments 114 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: for the arguments against the extraordinarily unusual detention camp in 115 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay. So multiple presidential administrations have disagreed on the 116 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: status of this area, gone back and forth on whether 117 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: to close the prison. Um. You know, uh, former President 118 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: Barack Obama in fact campaigned on the idea of closing 119 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay detention camp, and then later quite recently, the 120 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: Biden administration has made some of the same signals, and 121 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: then other presidential administrations said, not only do we need 122 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: to keep it open, like former President Donald Trump, but 123 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: we need to add more detainees. In fact, if I 124 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: recall correctly, his exact line was, we need to load 125 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: it up with more bad dudes. And as we record, 126 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: this controversy continues. It continues because multiple human rights groups 127 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: and journalists and other investigators and representatives of other countries 128 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: have pointed to get MO as an ongoing example of 129 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: human rights abuses, and they're asking questions like they're they're 130 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: posing questions like, um, if the US presents itself as 131 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: a champion of human rights, then why would it knowingly 132 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: and over decades run UH an operation like this like 133 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: why why is first not just why does this exists? 134 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: But why is it the US? That is? Why is 135 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: it the US that created it? And the their primary 136 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: controversies hinge on things like torture right? Or what are 137 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: what we're euphemistically referred to as enhanced interrogation techniques? UH. 138 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: If you want to hear more about that, do check 139 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: out our earlier episode does torture w work? It's not 140 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: exactly a walk through strawberry fields, but it's important to 141 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: be aware of the dilemmas inherent in acquiring information through 142 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: through those methods. Uh. Another primary controversy hinges on the 143 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: very shady legal status of the prison. Again for the 144 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: purposes of detainment, the US officially does not consider Ghetmo 145 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: us soil. And it's kind of an odd argument because 146 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: the Bush Junior. Again, for anybody outside of the U S. 147 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: It's it's often it feels weird to say, yes, this 148 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: is technically a meritocracy, but this guy's kid became president 149 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: because his dad was president. Whatever, just to say, we 150 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: understand how weird that can sound. Anyway, Then President Bush Jr. 151 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: Said that detainees in Ghetmo or his administration rather, it's 152 00:10:53,760 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: important that it was his administration. Administration, yes, right, right right, 153 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: the other president at the time of that administration. Uh, 154 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: this administration said detainees and Getmo are not entitled to 155 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: any of the rights or any of the protections guaranteed 156 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: under the Geneva Conventions or guaranteed to people in the 157 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: U S system of justice. But at the very same 158 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: time they said, the US government is still nonetheless treating 159 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: all detainees consistently with the principles of the Geneva Convention, 160 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: which is a weird thing to say. It really is. 161 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: If If anyone out there is interested in those legal 162 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: arguments and hearing from the horses mouths exactly why and 163 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: how those legal arguments were made, I would highly recommend 164 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: on Netflix. I believe it's called Turning point nine eleven. 165 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: It's a docuseries, multi part series that goes into that 166 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: in depth. And again you can hear you can hear 167 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: statement from the people who are making those legal arguments 168 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: um and and their reasoning behind it. Right. And there's 169 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: another controversy here, which is the cost From two thousand 170 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: and two, right when this started, to two thousand and twenty, 171 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: just last year, it has cost the United States government 172 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: and estimated six billion dollars and the yearly costs of 173 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: imprisoning each individual, just one at a time is thirteen 174 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: million dollars, says thirteen million dollars a year. According to 175 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: reporter Carol Rosenberg, who has been on this story since 176 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: all the way back in two thousand two, this almost 177 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: certainly makes Guantanamo quote the world's most expensive detention program, 178 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: which is saying a lot because the human species love 179 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: st incarceerate people. Why is it so much more expensive? 180 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: Is it because of its remoteness and kind of disconnect 181 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: nests from the rest of the country. Well, they they 182 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: can't trade with the country on the soil which they occupy. 183 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: So uh yeah, I'm sure it makes it a little weird, 184 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: a little tough to get stuff in when you need it. 185 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: And additionally, consider you know, we're talking about, um, a 186 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: unique situation where the military's administering the prison. We're also 187 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: talking about the legal proceedings that have been ongoing, right, 188 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: and the arguments. There are arguments, of course and support 189 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: of the camp. And the primary one hinges on the 190 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: idea that if these detainees are released, they will immediately 191 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: return to committing acts of terrorism. This is the argument 192 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: that one out when the Obama administration used an executive 193 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: order to call for the closure of the camp on 194 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: January twenty two, two thousand nine. Spoiler alert, it didn't happen. 195 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: Unless just talking about that, there were some detainees who 196 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: were sent away, right, they were transferred to other countries. 197 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: They were taken out of Guantana obey, but not all 198 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: of them because old Congress stepped in. So let's let's uh, 199 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: let's go through that. Yeah, let's see. So, um, the 200 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: closure of Guantanamo Bay was delayed, essentially blocked by opposition 201 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: from Republicans, and there were some Democrats as well that 202 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: were against closing it, and these are congress people. They 203 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: argued that the cost of housing the detainees was absolutely 204 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: worth it, because doing so in prisons on US soil 205 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: would be a threat to national security. So the isolation, 206 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: the fact that it occupied this weird kind of geographical 207 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: gray area, was a feature, not a bug for these folks. 208 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: So in more than half of the camps, one hundred 209 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: and sixty six detainees, some of whom had already been 210 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: cleared for release or transferred to other facilities, engaged in 211 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: a hunger strike to draw attention to the conditions there 212 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: and to their situation. And we know what happened in 213 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: response to that, right, the United States government began force 214 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: feeding the detainees, right exactly. And also, uh, there's there's 215 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: something I don't want us to lose here. The individuals 216 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: who were undergoing that hunger strike had been cleared, which 217 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: means that in the opinion of the US government, they 218 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: were free to go once there could be fat, once 219 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: the government could find a place for them to go. 220 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: And if you fast forward, then President Trump that administration 221 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: signs an executive order to keep the prison camp open. 222 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: So domestically, the US has been divided on this and 223 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: the the idea here is there's something about this idea 224 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: that I think we should mention, which is the US 225 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: prison system in general is not rehabilitated. There are no 226 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: shortages of stories about people becoming more well versed in 227 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: how to commit you know, insert crime here because of 228 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: their time in prison. Right, And there's a good question, Uh, 229 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: does the treatment that people undergo Quintanamo, especially if they're innocent, 230 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: does it run the risk of radicalizing these individuals? Uh? 231 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: This is this is an open question. But another open question, 232 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: one that is in the news a lot frequently, is Okay, 233 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: these people are held for years without trial in some cases, 234 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: when will there be a trial? If you if you 235 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: go back to the origin story from episode one, this 236 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: camp was built as a direct response to the attacks 237 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: on September eleven, and the initial concept was straightforward. The 238 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: initial concept that just of it is the people responsible 239 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: for these and other terrorist attacks will be found, apprehended, 240 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: and undergo a trial, meaning that justice would prevail over 241 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: chaos and acts of terrorism. But now we see that 242 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: the detainees in guantanamobey whatever your whatever your stance in 243 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: regards to this is, they do not legally have the 244 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: rights that a prisoner in the US justice system would 245 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: in theory have. I had to put in theory there, 246 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: because a lot of those rights for prisoners or people 247 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: who have been incarcerated on paper don't end up being 248 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: implemented in practice. Sure, And I mean, Ben, you say, 249 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: the idea or the question of whether or not prisoners 250 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: in this situation are further radicalize or hell, even how 251 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: prisoners here in the United States prison system are when 252 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: they leave, whether they're rehabilitated or further radicalized. Uh, maybe 253 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: not radicalized in the case of prison, but definitely like 254 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: to be difficult for them to be reintegrated. Let's just say. 255 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: But I would say, you know, the question around Guetanamo 256 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: whether radicalizing folks is sort of a open and shut question. 257 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: I feel like it's very clearly doing that, especially when 258 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: you're taking someone under false pretenses oftentimes, or you know, 259 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: maybe it's a good faith attempt to solve a problem, 260 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: but oftentimes people get lost in the shuffle, and then 261 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: you end up with folks, generations of folks who are 262 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: radicalized if that happens to their parents or their family, 263 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: or their brother, sister, or whomever. And in the case 264 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 1: of Guantanamo, US constitutional protections things like do process or 265 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: habeas corpus do not apply. So, for a quick and 266 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: dirty explanation, habeas corpus literally translates to have a body 267 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: of and this means that if you have someone under arrest, 268 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: they should be brought before a judge or into court 269 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: unless they are lawful grounds shown for their detention. So 270 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: this does that make sense? The purpose of it is 271 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: to give someone who has been detained a chance to 272 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: challenge the legality of their detention. Charge me for something, 273 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, officer, have I been detained? Okay? Why? Okay, 274 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: I need an attorney because I'm going to get a trial. 275 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: Well yeah, but it's I mean, that's what that is, right, 276 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: and that's that's what an individual should have. It is 277 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: definitely it would be very weird if someone, you know, 278 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: a police officer or anyone else just stopped you and 279 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: made you not go anywhere. You know, there's threat of 280 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: gun violence if you defy them. Uh, and they won't 281 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: tell you why you're being stopped. I don't know if 282 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: that's just a not a good it's a bare minimum 283 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: for human rights. And the argument is the ends justify 284 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: the means and all of that good stuff. But it's 285 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: pretty clear that its people are getting lost in the shuffle, 286 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: and that in a sense are absolutely being scooped up 287 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: and kept without due process, you know, under pretty nasty conditions, 288 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: which again I would argue, could actually make a non 289 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: radical person into a radical person. It could make the 290 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: United States a real quick enemy if they didn't feel 291 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: that way to start. Yeah, that's the point is making 292 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: earlier exactly, because how would It's it's a good question 293 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: to ask. So what does it mean if you don't 294 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: have these protections, Well, it means that the government can 295 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: do things like keep evidence against you secret, or evidence 296 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: just involved in your case secret, and it could take 297 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: evidence derived from torture, and it could hold you if 298 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: you are a detainee indefinitely, there is no end date 299 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: to your sentences, there could be no evidence against that's 300 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: just because it's a secret. It's a black box. So 301 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: critics of this arrangement, or critics of the way it's 302 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: organized currently maintain you'll you'll hear them argue that these 303 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: military commissions, military commissions, sidebar or tribunals organized outside of 304 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: US and international law by the d D by the 305 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: Department of Defense. So critics are saying that these military 306 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: commissions are explicitly created to evade those normal rules of 307 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: not just civilian but military courts. And it may surprise 308 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: some of our fellow conspiracy realists today to learn that, 309 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: almost two decades later, some of these people in Guantanamo 310 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: right now have never even had a trial. What are 311 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: we talking about? Will tell you after a word from 312 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy. You know what, 313 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Matt Noel, before we get 314 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: to the trial, I think it's important to note that, 315 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: regardless again if your stance on prisons in general or 316 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: on Guantanamo Obey detention camp in particular, it's not just 317 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: human rights groups, it's not just journalists talking about torture 318 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: at this facility. People who worked there have come forward 319 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: with this same claims. Uh. This this is something that 320 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, for administrations that were very supportive of Bontanamo. Uh. This, 321 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: this is at the very least not a good look 322 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: in some cases. It's uh, these are damning accusations. Uh. 323 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: Just last year. January two, guy named James Mitchell, psychologist 324 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: and interrogator of prisons at Guantanamo Obey Detention Center, testified 325 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: about horrific human rights violations that occurred at this at 326 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 1: this facility. It's why is Mitchell important because he didn't 327 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: just interrogate prisoners himself. He also created the CIA's post 328 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: September eleven and Terry Asian program. And the stuff that 329 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: he talks about is pretty gruesome, that's right. He described 330 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: in graphic detail how detainees were tortured while still not 331 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: being charged with a crime or afforded the you know, 332 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: the kind of treatment that even the most heinous criminal 333 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: would get, you know, on US soil. Torture included the 334 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: use of tactics like waterboarding, which we know if anyone's 335 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: seen Zero Dark thirty or any of these you know 336 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: films that came out around the War on Terror, probably 337 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: seen depictions of that, uh mock burials, um stress positions. 338 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: That's we've seen that. I believe there are photographs of 339 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: that from the Abu Gray prison scandal as well. Folks 340 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: like you know, in these kind of being forced to 341 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: stand on a very narrow bucket for a very long 342 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: time or being forced into these very uncomfortable poses, all 343 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: kinds of like deprivation, torture in terms of sonic torture, 344 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff. And since many of 345 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: the detainees at Guantanamo were first held in these black sites, 346 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: which we've got a whole episode or or maybe multiple 347 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: ones about UM that are created by the CIA that 348 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: don't officially exist, or they might have been held elsewhere 349 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: by the military UH, and they were also tortured before 350 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: being transferred to Guantanamo Bay. There's no official chain of 351 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: custody right or records showing where what happened to them, 352 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: and they're able to use that legal loophole of Guantanamo 353 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: not officially being on US soil to justify that even 354 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: if that stuff happened elsewhere. It's all very very slippery. UM. 355 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: The lawyers involved are all required to sign in DA's 356 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: nondisclosure agreements that prevent them from talking about any UH 357 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: claimed act of torture. I go back to the Netflix 358 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: documentary just because it shows you the exact wording of 359 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: the these types of enhanced interrogation that they were using 360 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: and why they were using them, how they got the 361 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: government to sign off on it, and uh, I can't 362 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: just watch it if you can, what was that one 363 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: famous line like, I see no problem with this. I 364 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: regularly stand at my desk for hours at a time. Sure, 365 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: that's one you might remember. Um, but you've also got 366 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: the architects the attorneys saying, you know, well, there's a 367 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: very big difference between attaching electrodes to someone's testicles and 368 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: shocking someone like that or just you know, slapping someone 369 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: really hard in the face. It wasn't that bad, you know, 370 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: it had to be an open palm. You can only 371 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: be certain a certain number of inches away when you 372 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: slapped them, you know, And just like whoa the finality 373 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: of evil? Right, And then the idea that overall, in 374 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: the in the scheme of the greater good, doing these 375 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: things while u unethical in the moment, will result in 376 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: saving people's lives. That's the argument, and that's something that 377 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: a lot of people has been a lot of time debate. Again, 378 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I think we mentioned this in our first part of 379 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: this series. Please do check out the episode on whether 380 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: or not torture works. It's an important question and uh, 381 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: you may be surprised by the dilemmas involved. The ticking 382 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: time bomb scenario that is so often um glorified in 383 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: popular film and fiction doesn't occur as as often as 384 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: maybe screenwriters would like you to believe. Please remember a 385 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: lot of those folks are just trying to sell a film, 386 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: not to tell you the truth. So these black sites, 387 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: we did a previous episode on black sites, they have 388 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: a similar list of advantages right because they are not again, 389 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: they're not on US soil, they're not officially acknowledged, they 390 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: don't have oversight from the usual institutions that would be 391 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: responsible for those oversights. So it may interest some our 392 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists to know that the U. S Government 393 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: has in some cases acknowledged that what took place was torture. 394 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: One example would be Abu Zubadaya, who is a Palestinian 395 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: man who was captured by US forces in Pakistan and 396 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: then he was tortured in multiple times in a series 397 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: of CIA black sites. And this is before black sites 398 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: republic knowledge, by the way, or confirmed. Another example is 399 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: Mohammed al Khatani, was a Saudi national. His military charges 400 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: were actually dismissed because he and his legal team and 401 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: made the case he had been tortured at Guantanamo. So 402 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: as military charges they're dismissed, you might say, where is 403 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: he now? He is still in prison. Uh, And like 404 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: al Khatani in a very real way, the world is 405 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: still waiting to see what happens next. Just a few 406 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: days ago on September US here the current judge in 407 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: the trial of the five men detained who are accused 408 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: of plotting the attacks. On September eleven, this judge said 409 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: that the actual trial was at least another year away, 410 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: at least that's if everything works out, which historically it 411 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: never has. In this case, the judges won Colonel matthew 412 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: in McCall and he took over this case just a 413 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: month ago, just as past August. Right now he's in 414 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: the midst of pre trial hearings and in it is 415 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: important to note that the coronavirus caused a delay of 416 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: more than a year and a half, so they're trying 417 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: to pick up where they left off. But this he 418 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: makes a point when he says it's going to take 419 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: a while to get here, because again, these are not 420 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: the types of trials you would expect to see if 421 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: you were in any US court. Detainees do not have 422 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: a choice of lawyer. They are required to use the 423 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: lawyers assigned to them. They are not allowed, to your point, Matt, 424 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: to see the evidence against them, not all of it. 425 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: And when it comes to a conviction, you only need 426 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: two thirds of the jury for the conviction. That's not 427 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: the way that you as courts typically work. Even if 428 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: you were acquitted, even if you are found not guilty 429 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: or innocent, your release is still not guaranteed. Well, even 430 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, in the US, I mean, we hear about 431 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: people getting public defenders and how that can take a 432 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: little time, and how maybe it's a false equivalency of 433 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: the idea of everyone gets you know, the same treatment 434 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: under the rule of law. Um, that's clearly not the case. 435 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: There are people that can afford attorneys that are you know, 436 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: much more likely to get them off for something. But 437 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: in a situation like this, when you're a detaining not 438 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: only do you not have the choice of an attorney, 439 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 1: the option to hire your own attorney, the backlog of 440 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: the attorneys that you do do have access to it 441 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: can be years. Right to even get like your case hurt, 442 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the people don't talk to anybody for years. 443 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes well it can be, but it generally doesn't take 444 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: two decades after you know a crime. But but, but, 445 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: but it can be years without having any kind of 446 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: resolution or any kind of forward movement in someone's case. 447 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: We've here all the time about people that have been 448 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: detained for years without you know, any kind of hope 449 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: for exoneration. Well, yeah, but the biggest thing here is 450 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: what Ben said. Yeah, I think the one that's couched 451 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: in the middle. When you have a trial, your attorney 452 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: gets to argue against the evidence and the points that 453 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: the opposing attorney the prosecution makes if you're on the defense, Yeah, 454 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: and then the concept of discovery, which means that you 455 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: are able to see that evidence. So imagine getting imagined 456 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: like worst case scenario and we're just going with hypotheticals here. 457 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: Imagine you're innocent and you happen to have a name 458 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: that is very similar to something like from the perspective 459 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: of someone who does not speak your native language, you 460 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: have a name that looks to them very similar to 461 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: the name of a known terrorist. You get scooped up 462 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: and you're like, what did I do? And they say 463 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: you know what you did? No, really tell me, and 464 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: they say, oh, no, I'm not going to But you're 465 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: going to tell us what you did. And maybe you're 466 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: a random taxi driver and you don't know, and maybe 467 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: you speak to the lawyer and they say, well, I'm 468 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: not I can't tell you the evidence they have against you. 469 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. And the taxi driver example, 470 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: by the way, folks, is a real example that match 471 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: us reference. So I would also like to say this 472 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a tangent. But there's a 473 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: question I've been I've been mulling over recently. If the 474 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: law is indeed like Guantanamo aside, put that aside for 475 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: a second. If the law in the US is indeed equal, 476 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: then why are some lawyers pay more than others. Why 477 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: are there really expensive lawyers that seem to get even 478 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: the most you know, even the people who have all 479 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: the evidence stacked against them. Why are those very highly 480 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: paid lawyers able to get someone off whereas less expensive 481 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: lawyer wouldn't. I think it's a good question. I'd love 482 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: to hear uh your perspective, especially if you work in 483 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: the legal system, or if you work as a lawyer, 484 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: or you work in litigation where you work in the 485 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. But just really quickly put a pin 486 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: in my point that I was trying to make. Um, 487 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: there are classes of detainees that are referred to as 488 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: forever prisoners. Uh, some of which have never been charged 489 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: and have been there since nine eleven, which has been 490 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: twenty years now. So uh, it's it's not uncommon. And um, 491 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: it's a little bit troubling. It's more than a little 492 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: bit troubling. Yeah, and we'll we'll talk about let's talk 493 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: about that right now. As a matter of fact, I'd 494 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: like to look into the fate of the detainees. So 495 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: there are the reports of torture. This may need to 496 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: be its own episode. Again. In the meantime, do check 497 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: out that very important question whether or not torture actually 498 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote works. Uh. Part of the hold up on 499 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: the trial is due to objections by lawyers defending two 500 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: individuals while he'd been Natasha and Ramsey bin alashiep Uh. 501 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: There these lawyers are challenging the current judge McCall and 502 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: they're saying, hey, are you qualified to reside over these cases? 503 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: These are death penalty cases maybe, and we need you 504 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: to suspend the proceedings until you're familiar with all the precedent, 505 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: all the legal proceedings leading up to the time you 506 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: we're given the case in August. Uh. And this includes 507 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: they argue the rulings of the three other judges previously 508 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: involved in the same case. Wait, record, scratch, you heard 509 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: that right. There have been three other judges before Colonel McCall, 510 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: none of which actually brought this to trial. None. Colonel 511 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: McCall is the fourth judge to preside at the Guantanamo 512 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: Court in the conspiracy case against khalege Sheik Mohammed, who 513 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: was the alleged mastermind of the nine eleven attacks, and 514 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: the four other men who were accused of helping plot 515 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: those hijackings. And again those attacks resulted in almost three 516 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: thousand people dead in New York and Pennsylvania and at 517 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: the Pentagon. The most recent detainee to leave got out 518 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: quite recently in July of this year. His name, Abdul 519 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: Latif Nazer is a Moroccan national, and he had been 520 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: he was finally he was released this year. He had 521 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: been cleared to be released four years ago, in two 522 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: six he was held for nineteen years. He was not 523 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: and now never will be uh charged with a crime. 524 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: So what does this mean for the future of Guantanamo 525 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: obey and a pause for word from our sponsors, and 526 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: we'll be back. And we've returned. So several times in 527 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: these episodes you've heard us talk about people like Abdul 528 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: Latif Nasa who were who were cleared for release. Uncle 529 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: Sam was ready to let them leave Guantanamo obey. So 530 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: why did they end up staying there for years? If 531 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: that is indeed a case, if the government that apprehended 532 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: you says you're good to go, why are you still 533 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: stuck there? It's because the U s authorities have struggled 534 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: to figure out how to transfer detainees from the base, 535 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: even when they wanted them to get out. The big 536 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: stumbling block, it's two big stumbling blocks here. First, there's 537 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: the problem of getting other countries to guarantee humane treatment. 538 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: So like if you are, for example, if you have 539 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: been apprehended in your an Albanian national and the US 540 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: government says, okay, this person has not committed a crime. 541 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: We are going to uh send them away to freedom. 542 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: We want to send them to Albania. They can't send 543 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: them to Albania unless there's an agreement saying we're going 544 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: to treat them humanely. And then if they try to 545 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: get a third country to agree to resettle these folks, 546 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: they have to say that that third country that agrees says, 547 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: not only will we allow them in this country, we 548 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: will also prevent them from returning to hostile activities against 549 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: the United States. So you can't just say, you know, 550 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: here's a plane ticket, go nuts. You have to they 551 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: have to have a place to go. And so these 552 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: negotiations can go out and for years and years and years. 553 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: After everybody agrees, this person could leave. And compounding these complications, 554 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: let's consider the case of the five Taliban prisoners who 555 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: are transferred to Cutter. This was an exchange deal, and 556 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: these happened a lot. They don't always make the news, 557 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: but they you'd be surprised how often this happens. Uh. 558 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: Five Taliban associated prisoners transferred to Cutter in exchange for 559 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: the release of a US soldier, bo Bergdahl, and he 560 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: was held captive in Afghanistan and Pakistan for five years 561 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: after he deserted the army. So four of those five 562 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: prisoners who got sent to Cutter have new jobs. They're 563 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: members of the new Taliban government in Afghanistan and justice. February, 564 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: the White House announced it's conducting a what they call 565 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: an internal review of how to close Quantanamo, not whether 566 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: to keep it open, but how to close it. And 567 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: one of the big steps that you know people want 568 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: this close, one of the big steps they advise taking 569 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: first is to get rid of the military tribunals and 570 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: allow the d o J, the U. S. Department of Justice, 571 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: to reach plea deals with people have been accused of crimes, 572 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: including the men suspected of masterminding nine eleven. So how 573 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: do you how do you all think that the American 574 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: public would react to that idea of a plea deal. 575 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: I would say not, Well, it would feel that way 576 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: to me as well. It's just weird because when you 577 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,919 Speaker 1: make a plea deal, you know that there's evidence against you. 578 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 1: Generally that's not always, but the reason a plea deal 579 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: happens is because you know it looks really bad. You're 580 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: probably going to get a super intense sentence, so you 581 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: take a plea deal in order to lessen that sentence. 582 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: That's what a plea plea deal is, right, right. You 583 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: agree to plead guilty to some or all of the 584 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: charges against you in exchange for some leniency and sentencing 585 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: or a series of concessions. Yeah, so like so like 586 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: one example would be, um, this is just a very 587 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: general example. One example would be, UM, if you are 588 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: already in prison for several heinous crimes, right and you 589 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: and then you know you're attached to maybe another murder 590 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: or something like that, let's see multiple murder, multiple people, 591 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: then you could make a plea deal to assist in 592 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: in solving further murders in exchange for life in prison 593 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: instead of execution. Like that's a that's a very extreme 594 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: case of a plea deal. A lot of other plea 595 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: deals are just with fairly petty crime or smaller, much 596 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: smaller felonies, where it's much it's more effective in getting 597 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: a case through the system to get to have someone 598 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: accused of something take a plea deal rather than having 599 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: to go through a full trial, right, so you can 600 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: get you can. It's in this case it's like, okay, 601 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: we've done all of this, has been all this time. 602 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: Rather than do a full trial, we'll just do plea deals. Well, 603 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: what doesn't apple deal often involve giving somebody else up 604 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: or providing useful information. Not necessarily, not necessarily it can, 605 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: but sometimes it's just to move the case through record, 606 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: especially in like a petty crime, like the implication being 607 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: that if you take this to a jury, then these 608 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: sentence will reflect that you have inconvenienced the system. And 609 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: that's like, that's you don't have sufficient evidence, right right, 610 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: something like that. And that's again that we're not saying 611 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: that happens all the time, but these are not. This 612 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: wouldn't be new for these to happen. And so the 613 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: idea of a of a plea deal on the part 614 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: of people associated with the September eleventh attacks, you can 615 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: see how that seems, how that can seem fundamentally deeply 616 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: offensive to you know, people whose loved ones died in 617 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: those attacks, or people whose loved ones died as a 618 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: result of the ensuing wars that followed in the wake 619 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: of those attacks. And then to get a plea deal 620 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: from someone who was tortured, and then to get a 621 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: plea deal from someone who was tortured. So this is 622 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: just scratching the surface of the current situation, and it 623 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: remains intensely controversial either way you look at it. It 624 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: remains disturbing for the people, for the survivors of the 625 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: September eleventh attacks, and of other terrorist attacks. You can 626 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: understand how justice such as it is seems often to 627 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: be an ever moving goalpost. And for critics of the 628 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: prison and for relatives of detainees who were held there 629 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: for years without being found, in fact, guilty of any crime, 630 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: in some cases without ever being charged for a crime, 631 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: you can see there's no way to recover the time 632 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: that was lost. And you know, don't make any mistake 633 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: about this, there were innocent people subjected to this treatment. 634 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: How do we know. We know because of the statements 635 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: of multiple government officials. In two thousand and nine, In fact, 636 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: a former administration official explicitly publicly said this is the case. 637 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: His name Lawrence Wilkerson, former CEOs chief of staff to 638 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: Secretary of State Colin Powell, and he said way back 639 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine that he believed most detainees in 640 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay should have been released. And when he said this, 641 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: he noted that he believed it happened, um not by design, 642 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: but because US forces were unable to and his words, 643 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: distinguish enemies from non combatants. So now that's where we are. 644 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: The world weights parts of Guantanamo, both the facility and 645 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: the legal processing. It's the legal processes it's pursuing. They 646 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: remain hidden from the public eye. And for some this 647 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: is just a necessary evil and it's committed for the 648 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: greater good of national security. But for others it is 649 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: solid proof that when it comes to Guantanamo Bay, there's 650 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: something the US doesn't want you to know. So what 651 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: do you think about this? I mean, it's obviously a 652 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: very sticky discussion. I mean there's a lot wrapped up, 653 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: and in terms of human rights violations, in terms of 654 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: what does it even mean to have a prison located 655 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: somewhere outside of the jurisdiction of our own countries government 656 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: when it's convenient exactly, and do as I say, not 657 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: as I do when I when I feel like it. Uh, 658 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: please let us know. You can write to us on 659 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: the internet. We are in all of the usual places. Yes, 660 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, you can find us 661 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter. We would 662 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: like to recommend our Facebook community page. Here's where it 663 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: gets crazy. But wait then, Matt, you might be saying, 664 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,240 Speaker 1: I hate sipping the social needs. I'm a social platform teetotaler. 665 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: Wherever will I go to reach you? Well, you can 666 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: give us a good old phone call. That's right. You 667 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: can talk to us UH directly from your mouth to 668 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: our ears via the digital magic, well, the telephonic magic 669 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,439 Speaker 1: of technology. We have a phone number and everything. Yeah, 670 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: our number is one eight three three st d w 671 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: y t K. You have three minutes to leave a message. 672 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Say whatever you'd like. Give yourself a cool nickname, hopefully 673 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: not your actual name. That'll keep the anonymity a little higher. 674 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: The levels of anonymity higher, just in case you know, 675 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: somebody wants to pick you up and put you in Guantanamo. Ha. 676 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen. By the way, One more recommendation, 677 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: if you're still listening, check out the Guardians video My 678 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: Brother's Keeper, a former Guantanamo detainee, his guard and their 679 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: unlikely friendship. It is a horrifying and heartwarming story about 680 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 1: two men that UH share had some shared experience in bond. 681 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: It's really great. So leave that message at one three 682 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: three std w y t K. Tell us all your stuff, 683 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: But if you've got too much to say, you can't 684 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: fit in that three minutes. Instead, send us a good 685 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. 686 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: Stuff They don't want you to Know is a production 687 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 688 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 689 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.