1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: Once they run that dark little room with the dirt floor, 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: they could see a patch against a wall, and they 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: started to dig, and four hours later they dug up 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: this blue rubber mad container with the remains of Jamie Carroll. 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 2: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: unpublished details behind their stories. I love a good murder 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 2: story set in the South, and this is a pretty 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: intense one. It centers on a vicious murder in a 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 2: crumbling Kentucky mansion and a killer who managed to cover 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: it up for months. Author David Domine writes about it 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 2: in his book A Dark Room in Glitterball City, Murder, Secrets, 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: and scandal in Old Louisville. You are someone after my 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: heart because you love a good ghost story. Tell me 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: about how you found the story to begin with. I've 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: read about it. 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: It's just one of those stories that kind of fell 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: in my lap. So I live in Louisville, Kentucky right now. 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm not from this area. I'm from Wisconsin. I came 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: here in nineteen ninety three to go to law school, 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: and you know, I didn't really look forward to coming 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: to Louisville, Kentucky. I've never been here before. So my 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: plan was to do my time and get out of town, 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: but that never happened. I ended up loving the city, 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: and in nineteen ninety nine I bought a house. I 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: fell in love with one part of the town. It's 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: called Old Louisville. It's one of the largest historic preservation 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: districts in the country. There's forty five scare blocks of 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: old houses, roughly fourteen hundred old homes and mansions, mostly 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: from the eighteen eighties and the eighteen nineties, and so 39 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: that area just kind of sucked me in. Well. In 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, I had a chance to buy a 41 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: house in that neighborhood, and my partner and I lived 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: there for eight years. But right before we moved into 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: this house, the previous owner just casually mentioned that the 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: house was haunted and we moved in, we'd be getting 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: a resident polter guys named Lucy, and so I just 46 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, pooh poohed her warnings and we 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: moved in, and sure enough, all the crazy stuff she 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: said what happened began to happen. And long story short, 49 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: I never saw that ghost that was I was hoping 50 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: to see to kind of make me a true believer. 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: But all these other things of a paranormal nature people 52 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: would say began happening in the house. And that's when 53 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: I began to discover more about the neighborhood, and I'd 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: found out more about the house, and I discovered you 55 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: can use ghost stories and hauntings as vehicles for more 56 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: than just talking about the pair ofanormal And there's history 57 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: and there's architecture. So I got into writing about the neighborhood. 58 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: And when we moved out in two thousand and eight 59 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: from that house, I was a food writer and I 60 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: heard right around the corner a new house had come 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: on the market a house that hadn't been for sale 62 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: in years. It was called the Richard Robinson House and 63 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: it was massive. It was like twelve bedrooms over ten 64 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: thousand square feet. But I heard they had the original 65 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: wine cellar from when the family built in eighteen ninety eight, 66 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: and I got into my head somehow, if you're going 67 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: to be a food rid, you have to have a 68 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: wine cellar. So I made an appointment to go look 69 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: at the house and it was huge. It was just 70 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: too much work. I could tell right away, right when 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: I walked in. Despite the grand stairs and the beautiful 72 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: parquet in lay on the hardwood floors and the beautiful 73 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: molding and stained glass windows, I knew it was going 74 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: to be too much work. But I thought, well, go 75 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: look at the wine cellar. You know you're looking at 76 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: the house because you're interested in the wine cellar. So 77 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: went down to the basement, worked our way through this 78 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: maze like warrn of little rooms, and finally found the 79 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: wine cellar. And it was a disaster. Like much of 80 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: the house, it had a dirt floor, but previous tenants 81 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: had just thrown boxes of you know, trash in there, 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: and you could only tell it was a wine cellar 83 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: because of the shadows the outlines of the shelves that 84 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: had been on the brick wall at one time but 85 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: then had been removed over time, and so that was 86 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of the nail in the coffin. I thought, no, 87 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: don't need to do this, and so said thank you 88 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: to the real estate agent. And as we were going 89 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: out the front door and down the walkway to the 90 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: sidewalk out in front of the house, a man was 91 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: rushing up the stairs and it turns out he had 92 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: the appointment right after we did, and he kind of 93 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: bumped into me and didn't say excuse me. I thought 94 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: that was kind of, you know, rude, but I didn't 95 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: really think anything of it, and we went on with 96 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: the rest of the day and that was that, or 97 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: so I thought. Two years later, it was the morning 98 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: of June eighteenth, twenty ten. I teach at a local university. 99 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: I was up drinking my coffee, getting ready to go teach, 100 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: and I had one of the local stations on, and 101 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there was kind of a newsflash 102 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: and a big, boxy, red brick house popped up on 103 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: the screen and there were police out front that had 104 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: caution tape all around it. And I saw the house 105 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, that house looks awfully familiar. And 106 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: I thought, well, probably down in old Louisville where all 107 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: the old Victorian houses are. And then a mug shot 108 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: popped up, and I stared at that mugshot, and I thought, 109 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: who is he? I know that guy, you know? I 110 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: thought maybe just from the neighborhood or something. And then 111 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: all of a sudden it dawned on me that was 112 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: the guy who had the appointment with the real estate 113 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: agent that morning. 114 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: So tell me about Jeffrey Mund, Joey Bannis, and Jamie 115 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: Carroll separately, and then tell me about when they came together. 116 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. So at the time they were all thirty seven 117 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: years old. Jeffrey Mount went to a good high school 118 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: here in Louisville. Is future boyfriend Joey Bannis did as well. 119 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: They both came from kind of privileged backgrounds. Jeffrey ended 120 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: up getting a scholarship at Indiana University and he studied 121 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: computer sciences and got a very good job. He was 122 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: a big it person. He ended up in Chicago for 123 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 1: a time. He was working at Northwestern Universities in charge 124 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,559 Speaker 1: of their big technology overhaul and he had had other 125 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: jobs as well. Joey Bannis, on the other hand, he 126 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: was more of a ne'er do well. He was a 127 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: deadhead for a while and worked in restaurants, supposedly as 128 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: a ski instructor. He had designs of opening his own 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: club in town. He claimed to have already opened a club, 130 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: but some people dispute that. But he was known in 131 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: the community for being kind of a colorful figure at 132 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: the local clubs. He bartended very often and he would 133 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: often have like his hair done in a bright blue 134 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: neon mohawk. He had body painting, and he really stood out. 135 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: And so Jeffreymont, according to his story, had just moved 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: back to Louisville from Chicago. He said his then boyfriend 137 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: had dumped him by text and he was kind of 138 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: coming back home to lick his wounds, and that's when 139 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: he met Joey Bannis in an online chat room and 140 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: they kind of hooked up and they started going out together. Eventually, 141 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: Joey moved himself into the house on four Street, and 142 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: when he moved in, he had had several hookups with 143 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: Jamie Carroll. They met online and Jamie Carroll was a 144 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: drug dealer. Joey Bannis was a drug dealer as well, 145 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: but they had also kind of dated on and off, 146 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: and so the three of them kind of hooked up. 147 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: And so the night in question, June seventeen, twenty ten, 148 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: Jamie Carroll was in town and he had some outstanding 149 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: warrants and the idea was he had come to town 150 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: with the plan of turning himself in the next day. 151 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: He was going to go to jail and try to 152 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: do his time and come out and be on the 153 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: straight and narrow, you know, get a fresh start. But 154 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: before he turned himself in that next day, he wanted 155 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: one last night out on the town. And when Joey 156 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: found out that he was in town, he said, come 157 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: on over to the house and bring lots of drugs 158 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: and Jeffrey and I will party with you. We'll send 159 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: you off with a bang. And Jamie arrived and they 160 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: started doing crystal meth and other things. And supposedly after 161 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: they ran through the first batch of drugs, Jamie left 162 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: went back to his hotel room to get more drugs. 163 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: And in that window of time that's where whoever you 164 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: believe Jeffrey floated the idea or Joey floated the idea 165 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: of killing Jamie and keeping his drugs and money because 166 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: Jeffrey and Joey were having major financial issues. Jeffrey had 167 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: been working at the University of Louisville as an IT consultant. 168 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: He was making over a quarter million dollars a year, 169 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: but he started missing work and showing up Hie, so 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: they let him go, so no money was coming in 171 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: to pay the bills. Jamie did come back, and Jamie 172 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: was a hairdresser. He had a shop in Lexington, and 173 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: he had a checkered pass. You know, he had been 174 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: a drug dealer, and some people described him as ruthless, 175 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: but a lot of people said he was charming in 176 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: high school and he was out in the nineties in 177 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: eastern Kentucky and said he was very confident being a 178 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: gay man. And some said he didn't look like he 179 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: had a care in the world. But when he came back, 180 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: the three of them were in bed and they took 181 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: a little break from things, and depending on who you believe, 182 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: Jeffrey got out of the bed, left Jamie and Joey 183 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: on the bed. When he went to pull up the 184 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: laptop and look at some porn and he heard a 185 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: scuffle and turned around and found Jamie yelling for help, 186 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: and there was Joey stabbing him. If you believe Joey, 187 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: he's the one that got out of bed. He heard 188 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: the scuffle at the computer, turned around and he saw 189 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: Jeffrey attacking Jamie. But whatever happened, Jamie ended up on 190 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: the floor or kind of cowering in a corner. He 191 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: was bleeding profusely. He had fallen into like a glass shelf, 192 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: and there was blood all over the place. And then 193 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: one of the two guys took a pistol and shot 194 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: him in the head, kind of execution style, and then 195 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: they took his body down to the basement and that's 196 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: when they proceeded to bury him. And it took well 197 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: over the course of a day. You know, they were 198 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: planning what to do and stuff, but they ended up 199 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: down in the basement. And it took him hours to 200 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: dig the pit where Jamie was buried, because he was 201 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: well over four feet into the ground. And yeah, whoever 202 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: you believe, Joey said he was terrified of Jeffrey. He 203 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: said Jeffrey had gone into kind of commando mode, ripped 204 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: out all the SIM cards in Jamie's phone and like 205 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: he had done stuff like this before. Jeffrey said, no, 206 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: that's what Joey did. And then this is where it's 207 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: really interesting when the trials finally did take place, because 208 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: they were both arrested charged with murder. In the end, 209 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: they both admitted to covering up the body, but they 210 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: each insisted they had only done this because each had 211 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: been living in fear of the other for the previous 212 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: seven months. And so in the first trial, Joey went 213 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: on trial first, separately. Several months later, in twenty thirteen, 214 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: Jeffrey went on trial, and originally the death penalty would 215 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: have been an option, but the prosecutor agreed to take 216 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: it off the table if they each agreed to testify 217 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: against the other. So when Joey was on the stand first, 218 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: it came out that one of the reasons he was 219 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: terrified of Jeffreymont is because Jeffreymont had worked for the 220 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: CIA as an assassin and I killed over thirty some people. Okay, 221 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: that's why he was terrified. And everyone in the courtroom 222 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: just kind of rolled their eyes. When Jeffrey was brought 223 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: to the stand and kind of asked about that, he said, no, 224 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: I never have been an assassin, but he said Joey 225 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: and Jeffrey they had like role playing games for sex 226 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: and stuff, and one of their role plays was that 227 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: Jeffrey liked to play that he was an assassin from 228 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: the CIA. So no one really put too much store 229 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: in any of that until later on some weird things 230 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: came out and all of a sudden, people wondered if 231 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: maybe Jeffrey Wont wasn't working for the CIA, because they 232 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: found out he's an expert in different European languages, Eastern 233 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: European languages. There were pages and pages of text messages 234 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: and transcripts from emails in Russian and German that never 235 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: made it back from the translators in time. And what 236 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: was interesting is when the murder was found out on 237 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: June eighteen, two thousand and ten, Joey and Jeffrey were 238 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: already out on bond from another crime in April of 239 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: that year, twenty ten. They were up in Chicago when 240 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: they were arrested, so this was when Jamie's body was 241 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: down in the ground. They were arrested because they had 242 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: been counterfeiting money the whole time in the house on 243 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: four Street, the second floor. They kind of turned into 244 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: a counterfeit money operation. They were taking dollar bills, they 245 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: were bleaching them ands and then restamping those cleaned papers 246 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: as higher denomination bills as fifteen hundred dollar bills. So 247 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: that weekend in April of twenty ten, they went up. 248 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: They checked into the Highatt Regency in downtown Chicago. I'm 249 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: assuming the idea was they were going up to see 250 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: how good they were, how much fake money they could pass. 251 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: Evidently they weren't very good, because they had just checked 252 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: into the hotel and hadn't even left before they were arrested. 253 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: They had given the dorman a fake hundred dollar bill 254 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: and he knew right away something wasn't right. He said, 255 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: it kind of felt kind of oily, and he called 256 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: the police. The police came and ended up arresting Jeffrey. 257 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: They found fifty four thousand dollars in counterfeit money in 258 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: their rooms, in addition to bags and bags of date 259 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: rape drugs, bomb making supplies, guns forged documents, and fake IDs. 260 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: They were planning a bank heist while they were up 261 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: in Chicago, and so the murder trial that kind of 262 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: trumped everything. But they were supposed to be all these 263 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: federal charges outstanding, you know, the counterfeit money and stuff 264 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: like that, and whatever happened with those trials, no one 265 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: really knows because they never made the news or anything. 266 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: And some people have been floating the idea that it's 267 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: because Jeffrey was involved with the CIA and they kind 268 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: of got him off. 269 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: So how long had Joey and Jeffrey been together before 270 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: all of this starts to happen. And I know it's 271 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: very sort of a loose term because they're bringing other 272 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: people into the relationship, but how long had they been involved? 273 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: Well, and of course it depends which side you listen to, 274 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: the prosecution or the defense, but it wasn't very long 275 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: in either case if you believe what Joey said. He 276 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: made it sound like they met around Halloween of two 277 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. So the prosecution kind of painted it 278 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: as they were in this long term relationship and they 279 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: did everything together. But Jeffrey Month's defense attorney was kind 280 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: of able, i think successfully to point out, no, they 281 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: were only together for a few months, and he was 282 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: able to bring an evidence that Joey, who had just 283 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: gotten out of prison, had plans on finding a mark. 284 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: He was looking for a man to live with and 285 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: mooch off of and he had I mean, they had 286 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: lists that he had made and one of the first 287 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: things was get money for bail tracking devices on the car. 288 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: I mean, just all this crazy stuff. Was looking for 289 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: machine guns, and every day the trial just kept getting 290 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: more and more bizarre. They had suicide tapes that Joey 291 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: had made, but then when they showed them, people suggested 292 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: that they were manufactured, you know, they were fabricated. They 293 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: had made those thinking that if they ever did get arrested, 294 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: they would have these things to kind of throw a wrench. 295 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: That's what a lot of people think happened. It's just 296 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: a bizarre story, a bizarre murder trial. 297 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: So when police separate Jeffrey and Joey, which is always 298 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: a good idea, and they start going back and forth, 299 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: well Jeffrey did this, well, actually, you know, Joey's the 300 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: one that did this. Was there not a way to 301 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: tease out whose story actually matches the physical evidence? You know, 302 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: is there any way for the police to suss out 303 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: exactly what happened versus what these two guys who are 304 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,359 Speaker 2: high on crystal meth. I'm assuming still during the interrogation 305 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: are telling the truth or not. 306 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't know that. They everyone bothered 307 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: to try to look at the logistics of three people 308 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: being on the bed and how it could have panned 309 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: out a certain way. But one thing was interesting. Certain 310 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: things were suppressed. And so when I sat through the 311 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: trials the first time, one of the things that was 312 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: kind of a mystery is the defense painted it as 313 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: Joey Bannis was the one who first brought up the 314 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: notion of the body being buried someplace, and their whole 315 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: justification was, now, if he's guilty, why is he going 316 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: to bring up a body in the basement. But then 317 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: it came out later on in the trials that Jeffrey Month, 318 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: according to the police reports, is the one that first 319 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: brought it up. He said to the responding officer, ask him, 320 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: pointing to Joey, ask him about the body and the basement, 321 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: and the defense successfully had a statement suppressed. So the 322 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: way the defense painted it, it did look like Joey 323 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: was the one to bring up this body in the 324 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: first place, and that's why so many people were confused. 325 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: You know, why would he be bringing this up. He's 326 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: going to, you know, bring himself down if he's you know, 327 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: pointing out this body in the basement. But it turns 328 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: out esupposedly Jeffrey Munt had brought it up, and then 329 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: that kind of lent more credence to the overall notion 330 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: of what happened that night, And that's still kind of 331 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: a big mystery. But people suspect that Jeffrey had had 332 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: enough and he was probably going to go to the 333 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: police and had told Joey that night, the evening of 334 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: June seventeen, twenty ten, and Joey, you know, he had 335 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: been to prison numerous times already, he knew that was 336 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: going to be the end for him. He was going 337 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: to be going back. So he either he was high 338 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: and didn't know what he was doing, or else he 339 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: knew very well what he was doing and thought he'd 340 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: probably take Jeffrey down with him, probably thinking, you know, 341 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: if I'm going to go down, you're going to go 342 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: down with me. 343 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: With these two men, what is the caliber of their 344 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: defense teams? Are they school or because Jeffrey, I know 345 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: he's in debt, but because he had a job, does 346 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: he afford an attorney or do you have the classic 347 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: attorneys come to them because they want the publicity. 348 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: You did notice, first of all, the size. They both 349 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: had excellent defense attorneys. Joey, who went on trial first, 350 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: had Darren Woolf. He's quite a well known figure, and 351 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: he was assisted by Justin Brown. And then Jeffrey he 352 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: had four people on his defense team. Steve Romanes is 353 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: kind of a Mattlock Southern type of lawyer, you know, 354 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: folksy kind of lawyer, was the lead defense and he 355 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: was assisted by Ted Shause, and then they had their 356 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: two assistance as well. And you just noticed by the number, 357 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, Jeffrey had twice as many people, you know, 358 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: sitting next to him when he was at the table. 359 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: And then the other thing is by that point Joey 360 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: was convicted of the bulk of the crimes during that 361 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: first trial, so when Jeffrey went on trial, they were 362 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: able to say, we already got person. He's been convicted. 363 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: And I think that really helped the defense a lot, 364 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: and also I think the prosecution they got somewhat complacent 365 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: after the first trial. Much of their argument for the 366 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: second trial was exactly the same. Some of their lines 367 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: were verbatim, so they were just I think, kind of 368 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: coasting thinking they were going to use the same defense, 369 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: but by that point, Jeffrey Month's defense attorneys were able 370 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: to study things, and there was just all this stuff 371 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: that came out. It was two completely different trials. I 372 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: mean to see the stuff that was suppressed in the 373 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: first trial that was allowed to come out in the 374 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: second trial, and vice versa. And in the second trial 375 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: they brought up all this stuff about Joey Bannis. One 376 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: of the things that kind of impressed me during the 377 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: first trial is Joey Bannis. He was always even keeled, 378 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: he was soft spoken, he was articulate, he never changed 379 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: his story once, and so a lot of people went 380 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: into that first trial thinking, like the media had painted it, 381 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: that Joey was probably more guilty of the two because 382 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: he had this rap sheet and he was notoriously violent 383 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: and volatile. Jeffrey mont had never had trouble with the 384 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: law before. They made it seem like he kind of 385 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: got swept up in all of this. But after that 386 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: first trial, just seeing Joey maintain his composure on the 387 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: stand and Jeffrey get caught in a lot of lies, 388 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people left that first trial thinking that 389 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: Jeffrey probably was the more guilty of the two. But 390 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: during the second trial, then they brought in all this 391 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: other stuff about Joey, like how psychotic he really is psychopathic, 392 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: and just all these things that he had planned. You know, 393 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: they were able to, like I said, provide these lists, 394 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: and we found out a little more about some of 395 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: his other crimes and stuff, and people were testifying against him. 396 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: Supposedly his own family was telling people to stay away, 397 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: that their brother, their son, you know, was evil. So 398 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: if your own family members are talking like that, that 399 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: says a lot about you know, you as a person. 400 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: I think what is the difference between as far as 401 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: the sentence goes, They're not acquitting either one of these 402 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: guys everything, no matter what they decide, right, because there's 403 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: always what covering up accessory Secondarymber. I don't know what 404 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: else the other choices were, and you can tell me that, 405 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: but you know, I want to know what's at risk. 406 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: So you said that they took the death penalty off 407 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: the table for both of them. 408 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: Is that right? 409 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: What are the charges that they're facing as well as 410 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: the sentences that they're facing. 411 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: Here the sentences were twenty five to life. That's in 412 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: effect what Joey Bannis got, and the charges were murder. 413 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: I forget what the terminology is in Kentucky, but when 414 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: you tamper with a corpse, hiding evidence, drug possession, burglary 415 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: because they stole stuff from Jamie Carroll. So there were 416 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: like eight major counts and then the first trial, Joey 417 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: was convicted of all but the two minor counts. In 418 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: the second trial, Jeffrey was acquitted of all but the 419 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: two minor counts, so he got eight years for his part. 420 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: He had already been in prison three years by that point, 421 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: so the next year, twenty fourteen, he was halfway through, 422 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: so they let him go. He was out on parole, 423 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: already went to a half way house, and as far 424 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: as I know, he's out and he's living his best life. 425 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: What is Jamie's family saying about all of this or 426 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 2: were they there to represent him at all? 427 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: To a certain extent, And this is another situation where 428 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: you got to kind of parse things not to offend 429 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: the family too much. And depends which side you believe. 430 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: But Jamie's mother, I mean rightly, so she was devastated 431 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: and she's on record sobbing saying how much she missed 432 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: her son. But the other thing is others have reported 433 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: his family life wasn't the best. And what was kind 434 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 1: of damning for Jamie's mother is she didn't even know 435 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: he was missing until the night of the nine one 436 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: one call. 437 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 2: I was wondering about that. Did somebody actually say seven 438 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: months earlier, this guy's missing. 439 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 1: People, they might have suspected something. But this is another 440 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: interesting thing because this was one of the reasons the 441 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: prosecution used as a motive. Supposedly, Jeffrey and Joey knowing 442 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: that Jamie was going to go to prison the next day, 443 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: they figured, no one's going to notice if he just 444 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: diks off the face of the planet. 445 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: Yes, they would. He's supposed to turn himself in, right. 446 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. He didn't turn himself in the 447 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: next day. And guess what. They dropped the ball. Normally 448 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: put out a bench warrant or something. They totally dropped 449 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: the ball, so he fell through the cracks. So he 450 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: wasn't in the system. And his mother, who supposedly, you know, 451 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: was devastated by his loss, didn't even know he was missing. 452 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: She just assumed he was in prison and she'd probably 453 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: hear from him when he came out. But you know, 454 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: your son's in prison, for seven months, and you don't 455 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: know that for certain. He did have family and friends 456 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: who did miss him, that's for sure. But yeah, it's 457 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: kind of a tragedy that he fell through the cracks 458 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: and wasn't noticed until it was too late. 459 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: And what's awful is to bring up the irony here 460 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: is he's at this house with the two men partying, 461 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: thinking this is his last night of freedom. And obviously, 462 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: if he had known that this was going to be 463 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: something where, you know, he would kind of be able 464 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 2: to scoot away and go to Mexico or someplace and 465 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: never be found and nobody was going to come look 466 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: for him, none of this would have likely happened. It 467 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: is sad, and it brings up something that is always 468 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: a challenge I think for people who write true crime, 469 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: which is, how do you take a victim who is 470 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: not the perfect victim? And I don't mean you know, 471 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: the missing white Wooman syndrome. I mean the person who 472 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: has clearly made some questionable choices. It doesn't mean they 473 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: deserve what happened, but it must have been difficult for 474 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: you to tease out the really positive things about Jamie 475 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 2: that then readers could really connect to and say, this 476 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: person deserves justice just like everybody else. 477 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that was one of the challenges I 478 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: had right away, because it seemed when the details of 479 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: the murder were released, it was always this drug, drug 480 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: fueled night of sex, and it was so sensationalized, and 481 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: I had to, you know, be careful that I wasn't 482 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: feeding into the sensationalism, you know. But yeah, I mean 483 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: they did a lot of victim shaming, and so it 484 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: was a challenge to keep reminding people that Jamie was 485 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: the victim. He didn't deserve what happened to him. Even yes, 486 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: he did have a checkered past, as was pointed out 487 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: right away, but yeah, he didn't deserve to die that way. 488 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: He didn't deserve to have someone execute him. So it 489 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: was a challenge, and there were other challenges. You know, 490 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: the whole gay aspect of the. 491 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: Trial jury selection is something you talk about. I think 492 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: that would be a great example to explain. 493 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: So in Kentucky they record, they videotape all their trials 494 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: and so one of the you know, the book took 495 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: me ten years to write, and one of the reasons 496 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: was it was a daunting project, you know, trying to 497 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: just get it all under my belt. But then a 498 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of it was doing the research and going back 499 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: and I sat through the trials. I was there every day. 500 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: But then later on I was able to get the 501 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 1: videotaped proceedings in the courtroom, and that's when it got 502 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: really interesting, because when you get those videotape proceedings, you 503 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: get all the stuff that you don't get to see 504 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: that you're not privy to when you're sitting in the 505 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: gallery in the courtroom. For example, you know, if you're 506 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: in a courtroom and there's an objection or something and 507 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: the judge calls both councils to the bench and they 508 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: hit the white noise button and everything is blocked out. 509 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: You get to hear what that all was about once 510 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: you get the tapes afterwards, and the same thing. They 511 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: record all the jury polling, and so you got to 512 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: see the prospective jurors on the stand being questioned. And 513 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: this is where you saw, unfortunately, a lot of homophobia 514 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: rear its ugly head. But it was, you know, over 515 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: ten years ago that that happened, and you like to 516 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: think we've come a long way since then, but I'm 517 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: not really sure about that. But it was fascinating just 518 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: to see people's answers to some of these questions, and 519 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: it was interesting to see how the defense and the 520 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: prosecution were able to kind of weed out people they 521 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: didn't want. 522 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about how it sounds like both sides 523 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: are asking if you have a prejudice against you know, 524 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: gay people, are you able to put that to the 525 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 2: side to be fair? And there are people who are 526 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: sitting there actually having to think about it for a second, 527 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: which is so upsetting to read, but of course not surprising. 528 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to pin this on Kentucky. I'm 529 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: just going to say across the nation, it wouldn't surprise. 530 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: Me in any state. Yeah, exactly. 531 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit more about maybe did 532 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 2: we find homophobia in the media during this time? How 533 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: did the Louisville Press also known as the litter Ball City. 534 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 2: I had never known that. How did the Louisville Press 535 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: handle all of this? Do you think that they were 536 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: pretty fair and impartial? 537 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: I think for the most part they tried to be 538 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: as fair and impartial as they could be, But you 539 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: couldn't get around some of the details. It was, you know, 540 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: some people called it the pink Triangle. 541 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: Murder. 542 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: It was a kind of gay lover's try angle kind 543 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: of thing. And I think the fact that some people 544 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: were trying to really trying hard to not come across 545 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: as homophobic, I think that might have affected how the 546 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: case was covered in the press in general. Because the 547 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: trial of Joey and Jeffrey was going on at the 548 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: same time of the Jody Arius trial. Oh yeah, of 549 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: course that was national two three months, that was national news. 550 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: That's what dominated all, you know, the news channels and 551 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: true crime things. And a lot of people were saying, 552 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: had that not been going on, Joey and Jeffrey's trial 553 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: might have been the big national story. But a lot 554 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: of people, a lot of journalists weren't opting to cover 555 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: it because they were afraid, I suspect, of coming across 556 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: as homophobic by covering it and you know, dredging up 557 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: all these sensational details. 558 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: When I teach students at the University of Texas, I 559 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: teach journalism there, I often tell them when they're pitching 560 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: me an idea for like a nonfiction story or a documentary, 561 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: you need to I immediately identify who your deal breaker 562 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: interview is. Who do you have to get or this 563 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: is a dead story, and you know I'm going to 564 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: tell you no. So who was that for you, David, 565 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: with this story. Is there somebody you knew you had 566 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: to secure, like Jamie's mom or somebody who you just thought, 567 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: I don't know if the book is going to be 568 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: okay if I don't if I don't get this person. 569 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, actually for me, it was Joey and Jeffrey themselves. 570 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: You know, as I was writing, I thought, you know, 571 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons it took me so long. 572 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: They weren't talking to me. I got in my head, well, 573 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: unless I talk to them and get their sides of 574 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: the story, I can't really paint, you know, an accurate picture. 575 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, I've got interviews and I have courtroom drama, 576 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: I have you know, files and documents, But until I 577 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 1: hear it, you know, from the accused killer's mouse, I 578 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: was like, you can't really do the story justice. Well, 579 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: seven or eight years into that, I finally realized they're 580 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: not going to talk to me, and that's when I 581 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: decided to kind of go on and just build that 582 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: into the story. And I did have a brief exchange 583 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: with Joey at the very end right before the book 584 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: was going to press. But yeah, to this day, that's 585 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: what I really wanted was to talk to those two 586 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: to get their you know, take on the situation, and 587 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: also to kind of find out more about what happened 588 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: that night of the nine one one call, because that's 589 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's also a mystery. Did they do it together, 590 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: like the prosecution argued that they conspire. Was it a 591 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: joint effort or did one of them kind of take 592 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: the initiative and the other was swept up? Or did 593 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: one of them take the initiative and the other wasn't 594 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: swept up, he was just a bystander. You know, that's 595 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: an unanswered question. And then you know what actually provoked 596 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: the fight that night was Jeffrey going to go to 597 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: the police and tell him about the body and the basement. 598 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: You know what what sent Joey, you know, off the 599 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: deep end like he went that night. 600 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: I wonder why the prosecutor didn't decide to try the 601 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: two of them at the same time, because it seems 602 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: like a risk to do what they did to put 603 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: Joey on first, and then it's like, well, what's the 604 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: second jury going to do? You've already convicted one person. 605 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: Unless you have really strong evidence that Jeffrey really was 606 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: right next to him committing the crime, then it doesn't 607 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: seem like they have any other choice. Do you have 608 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: any reason or any idea about why that happened? 609 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: I think without each one testifying against the other, they 610 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: didn't really have much of a case. That was the 611 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 1: whole crux of their case, and without that, I think 612 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: it would have been really really hard to put them 613 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: on trial because it just wasn't a lot of evidence. 614 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: You know, there were text messages and things like that, 615 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: but as far as a motive for why they would 616 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: have done this, there really wasn't much out there. 617 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: What do you think is important about this book? 618 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: Now? 619 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: Why tell the story? 620 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: Now? What is it for you? Do you think, well, 621 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: the homophobia needs to be addressed, just the nuances of 622 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: a courtroom trial. You know, I'd like to say I'm 623 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: not going to second guess a jury ever again just 624 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: by seeing how different these two trials were. But then, 625 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, it just it's amazing how little people who 626 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: have to make a decision about a person's innocence or guilt, 627 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: how little they're actually shown sometimes that I think is amazing. 628 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: I think that's an issue. But then the other thing is, 629 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, this was kind of my story. You know, 630 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: if you read the book, I take a first person approach, 631 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: and I kind of as I was finishing things up, 632 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, we were going on ten years, and ten 633 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: years is a lot of time you can go back 634 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: and reflect. So I decided to insert myself more into 635 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: the story, include a lot of quirky neighborhood flavor and characters, 636 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: and I kind of made it the story about me 637 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: on this journey trying to figure out what happened that night. 638 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: So just for purely selfish reasons, it's kind of my story, 639 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: you know, my story as a writer and trying to 640 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: take a journalistic approach and trying to be fair to 641 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: all parties involved. But still, you know, it's so often 642 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: the case you're rubbing salt and open wounds, and some 643 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: people weren't happy I was writing this story. So just 644 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: on its face, it's my story, but it's a story 645 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: of how I got involved in this murder and how 646 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: I went after loose ends, tried to figure out what 647 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: the murder was all about, what really happened, and in 648 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: the process I just uncovered this interesting neighborhood and a 649 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: fascinating city. So yeah, you mentioned literabal city. That's a 650 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: nickname a lot of people don't know Louisville enjoys. I'm 651 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: hoping the book will kind of change that though. But yeah, 652 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: I love quirky things and I love eccentric characters. So 653 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of these quirks that pop up in 654 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: all angles of the book and some one of the 655 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: reviewers said, this is my love letter to Louisville. And 656 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: I kind of like the conscription. It's a true crime book, 657 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: but it's more than a true crime book. You know, 658 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: it's not just straight true crime. It's got memoir, it's 659 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: got you know, just history and local flavor. And that's 660 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: kind of what I like to do when I'm writing, 661 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, they say write what you like to read. 662 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: So I basically wrote the book that I'd want to read, 663 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: and that's all she wrote. 664 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: So one last thing, what does your gut say happened? 665 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: Who is the one that held a knife that night? 666 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 2: Or do you think it was both of them? Just 667 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: reading everything you've read and hearing everything you've. 668 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: Heard, And that's another thing. Every time I go back, 669 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: and like every six months, I go back and just 670 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: reread the book and just you know, to refresh my 671 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: senses and my recollections, because you forget things over time. 672 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: But every time I go back and read the book, 673 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: I kind of come to a different conclusion. And every 674 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: time I go back and watch the trial tapes, I 675 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: noticed something that I didn't notice before. So I guess 676 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: it depends on the day of the week or what 677 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: month of the year it is, and I might have 678 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: a different answer. But the more it happens, the more 679 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: I tend to believe the prosecution was kind of on 680 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: the right track. That Joey and Jeffrey they work together 681 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: to a certain degree. One thing I'm convinced of is 682 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: Jeffrey is not as innocent as the verdict makes him 683 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: out to be. There are things in the trial that 684 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: come out that are just kind of, you know, dead giveaways. 685 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: For example, one of the lawyers, they brought up all 686 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: these text messages between Joey and Jeffrey, and supposedly one 687 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: time they were fighting for whatever reason, but Joey sent 688 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: Jeffrey a text saying, Jeffrey, don't make me. Don't make 689 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: me tell them about what's in the basement, you know, 690 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: And if someone were to text that to you, if 691 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: you were involved, and you were innocent, what would you say, right, say, 692 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: why do I have to worry about You're the one 693 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: that killed him and buried him down there, You'd say 694 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, Jeffrey Mont just totally glosses over it, 695 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, like so he knows, he definitely knows more. 696 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: He's more involved than the verdicts lead us to believe. 697 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: I am shocked, and this is going to sound terrible, 698 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 2: but I am shocked that one of them ultimately did 699 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 2: not kill the other one in this situation at some point. 700 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 2: I mean, really, seven months go by and one of 701 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 2: them does not completely freak out and kill the other one. 702 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's some of the people they put on 703 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: trial were, for example, a former prisonmate of Joey's who 704 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: had come to town and he was staying with them for 705 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: a while, and he talks about how Joey pulled out 706 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: a gun and like shot it above Jeffrey's head went 707 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: into a door or something. So yeah, it could have 708 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: very well happened, probably would have been Joey killing Jeffrey. 709 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's surprising that they made it as long 710 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: as they did. 711 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: Seven months did their families come at all? Did they 712 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: have any kind of representation? 713 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, both families had people there. Wow, And you asked about, like, like, 714 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: when I was trying to, you know, get people to talk, 715 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: who my most prized interviews would have been. And that's 716 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: one thing I didn't do. I didn't go after family members. 717 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not that kind of journalist who can 718 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: go knock on people's doors and kind of be a 719 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: thorn in their side either. I never approached the family 720 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 1: members directly, but I let it be known that if 721 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: they wanted to talk to me, I'd be more than 722 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: willing to talk to them. Jeffrey's family, Joey's family, and 723 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: Jamie's family. So I didn't approach any of the relations directly, 724 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: but I let it be known through channels that if 725 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: they wanted to talk, I'd be available. But none of 726 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: them wanted to talk. 727 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: I'm a little surprised Joey wasn't willing to talk to you. 728 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: Is he expecting to get out on parole or something. 729 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: In another ten years or so. But yeah, that was 730 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: one of my biggest surprises because you would think, after 731 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: the verdicts have come down and he's in prison, you know, 732 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: living the rest of his life like he's going to 733 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: live it. Being the narcissist that he is, you think 734 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: he'd want to put his spin, you know, on the 735 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: story and kind of get his two cents out there 736 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: so he can kind of narrate the story himself, kind 737 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: of direct how it's going. But yeah, right before the 738 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: book went to press, I finally got him to answer 739 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: an email. And you know, I was going through different channels. 740 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: I finally someone found his Tumblr page and sent me 741 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: an email, and I sent it like five months from 742 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: by six seven months. I thought he's not going to talk, 743 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, I got this email 744 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: through the prison email system JPAL, and he's like, oh, sorry, David. 745 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: I was, I've been in the hole the last six months. 746 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: And then he was really excited. He wanted to talk 747 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: and and he ended up being in a prison right 748 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: outside of Louisville. But he said, if we talk, then 749 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: we have to do it face to face because you know, 750 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: they can record, you know, phone calls and stuff like that, emails, 751 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: and so I made plans to visit him. And then 752 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: this is when some of the CIA stuff was coming out, 753 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, don't ask about the CIA stuff. 754 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: Don't ask about the CIA stuff. Well, I couldn't keep 755 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: my mouth shut. So the day before I was supposed 756 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: to go meet him, I said, so, some of the 757 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,479 Speaker 1: things I want to talk about tomorrow. By the way, 758 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: what about all the CIA stuff? Whatever came of that? 759 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 1: Why did you say that? And he never got back 760 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: to me, and he went he wouldn't accept my visit. 761 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: When I went, oh, wow, So it makes you think 762 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,479 Speaker 1: that maybe there was something with the CIA angle, which 763 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 1: is so crazy. Wow, what a story. 764 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 2: And I love learning about Louisville. I've never been there before, 765 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 2: and it's interesting because it's such a sad story. But 766 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 2: it's a story that I think is so illuminating about 767 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 2: different parts of society and certainly this part of Kentucky. 768 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: What I was struck by, I will say the most, 769 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 2: is the idea of, especially after you telling me it 770 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: didn't seem like they were trying to kill each other afterward, 771 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: that this combination of these three men could create something 772 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 2: so ultimately deadly and vile. You know, if you strip 773 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: them apart, would that have ever happened? But together, particularly 774 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 2: Jeffrey and Joey together, it's like they're emboldened to do this, 775 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 2: And I do wonder what you think if we separated them. 776 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 2: Is this something that would have happened if they were 777 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 2: on their own with Jamie? 778 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, good question. Like I said, that's another thing. Depending 779 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: on the month of the year, the day of the week, 780 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: I'll probably have a different answer. But my first inkling 781 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: is Joey Bannis very well could have ended up doing 782 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: something like this. Whoever he en came with. I mean, 783 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that came out, he did have 784 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: those propensities. Whether or not jeffreymont ever would have gone 785 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: in that direction, I see that less likely. But they 786 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: both had some of their dark sides revealed during the trials. 787 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: And another thing that I tried to address in writing 788 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,760 Speaker 1: this book was yeah, like you said, and the prosecution 789 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: pointed out, Joey and Jeffrey came together, it was just 790 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: like this deadly mixture, you know, just they were swirled 791 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: up and all this stuff and this terrible stuff happened. 792 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: But yeah, they did something terrible, But does that invalidate 793 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: their whole lives? You know, people do bad things. Do 794 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: we just discount them because of this one horrific thing 795 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: that they were involved in? Or did they still have 796 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: some value as human beings? Is there some redemp in 797 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: store for them down the road? 798 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 2: Well, I will say it makes me uncomfortable that Jeffrey 799 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: Mont is out there now because did he really learn 800 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 2: a lesson? We don't even know if Joey learned a 801 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 2: lesson and now he's out there. 802 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And while there's all kinds of rumors. Some people 803 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: say he's he changed his name and he's working in 804 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: Europe under an assumed identity. Some people say, no, he 805 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: bought a house that's kind of similar to the house 806 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: he bought and he's fixing up that house. Someone says 807 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: he's with another boyfriend that kind of looks like Joey. 808 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,479 Speaker 1: Joey's got his little acolytes in prison. From what I hear, 809 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: he's got a following, and he's quite the charmer. He's 810 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: meticulous in the way he dresses and in prison, uh huh, 811 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: So who knows? 812 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: Who knows he'll be in his Would it be late 813 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 2: fifties early sixties when he gets out? Is that right? 814 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 2: He was convicted in twenty ten and he. 815 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: Got twenty ten, convicted twenty thirteen, so early sixties. Everyone says, 816 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: still young and spry enough to do some more killing 817 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 1: when you get out at home. Not the case. 818 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 2: I hope so too. I hope so too. If you 819 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 2: love historical true crime stories, check out the audio versions 820 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: of my books The Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, 821 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 2: and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons 822 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 2: of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right 823 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 2: here in this podcast feed, scroll back and give them 824 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 2: a listen if you haven't already. This has been an 825 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 2: exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 826 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 827 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 2: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 828 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 2: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 829 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 830 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 2: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words pod 831 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: M