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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I'll Never Told You, a productive

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Speaker 2: I heeart for you, and yes, it is just me

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Speaker 2: today bringing back a classic. As we are rapidly approaching Halloween,

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Speaker 2: I'm still behind. I have so many horror movies to watch,

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Speaker 2: including this one. So today we're bringing back an episode

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Speaker 2: about the character Sally from Nightmare before Christmas, and I'm

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Speaker 2: really excited to watch it. I always try to do

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Speaker 2: that one closer to Halloween because it kind of gets

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Speaker 2: me into the this is the end of Halloween and

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Speaker 2: now we're approaching all of these other holidays at the

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Speaker 2: end of the year. But as always, listeners, we would

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Speaker 2: love to hear from you about any movie that are

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Speaker 2: classics for you, traditions for you, whatever costumes you might

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Speaker 2: be dressing up in, or pumpkins that you've carved, and

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Speaker 2: just you know, how are you doing. We would love

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Speaker 2: to hear from you, but please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,

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Speaker 2: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan Never

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Speaker 2: Told You production of iHeartRadio. And welcome to another sub

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Speaker 2: sub sub sub segment fictional women around the World.

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Speaker 1: How do ween?

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Speaker 2: In addition who, Yes, today we are talking about Sally

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Speaker 2: the ragdoll from the nineteen ninety three film Another Anniversary,

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Speaker 2: which we keep running into, hey, which is the stop

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Speaker 2: motion animated film The Nightmare Before Christmas First Voice by

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Speaker 2: Catherine O'Hara. I just watched this movie the other day

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Speaker 2: when I.

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Speaker 1: Was a kid.

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Speaker 2: It scared me so bad. I don't think I watched

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Speaker 2: it again until after.

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Speaker 3: The first time I ever watched it, I think was

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Speaker 3: last year. Oh really, because I don't care for animations.

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Speaker 1: I don't care for Tim was his face, Tim Burton,

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Speaker 1: I said it.

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Speaker 3: So I've never watched any of his outside of like

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Speaker 3: the old school old school, so definitely watched Beetlejuice and

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Speaker 3: definitely watched Edward Scissors Hands. I think that's it though, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: although he does have some surprising movies that I.

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Speaker 1: Didn't realize was his.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so maybe I have and I didn't realize it.

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Speaker 3: So like, I'm not a big Johnny Depp fan, so

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Speaker 3: m hmm, definitely not gonna watch that. But I finally

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Speaker 3: watched this last year, which, by the way, I just

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Speaker 3: saw recent TikTok saying that the children are named after

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Speaker 3: their deaths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that made me really sad. It's a dark film

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. I mean when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was like, oh.

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Speaker 3: My god, yeah, I was like, oh, well, okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: uh huh.

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Speaker 2: Well, I watched it the other day and I was

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Speaker 2: just thinking about this because I was like, I see

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Speaker 2: this character come up so many times, definitely in like

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Speaker 2: goth spaces, when I was going to hot topic in

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Speaker 2: high school.

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Speaker 1: Sally. I have some pajamas actually that I got from

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Speaker 1: Hot Topic.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and this film and this character did really resonate

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Speaker 2: with a lot of people. There has been a lot

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Speaker 2: of debate and disagreement about whether her character is a

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Speaker 2: good or bad role model.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that at the end.

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Speaker 2: As side of the film, she has been featured in comics, books,

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Speaker 2: and video games, including the Kingdom Heart series, which I loved.

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Speaker 2: Sally's song, the song she sings in it that it

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Speaker 2: is called Sally's Song, has been covered at numerous times,

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Speaker 2: including by Evanescence frontwoman Amy Lee, which I forgot until

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Speaker 2: I was researching this. There's also a line about it

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Speaker 2: in the Blink one eighty two songs I Miss You,

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Speaker 2: which I was very.

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Speaker 1: Good at on my karaoke game that I had on PlayStation.

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Speaker 2: Halsey will alternate with Catherine O'Hara as Sally in an

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Speaker 2: upcoming live production of The Nightmare for Christmas at the

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Speaker 2: Hollywood bol Apparently they've been doing this for many years.

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Speaker 2: Any listeners have been let us know Billie Eilish saying

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Speaker 2: their role a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: The costume was.

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Speaker 2: Allegedly inspired by Selena Kyle Catwoman from Batman Returns, which

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Speaker 2: is another holiday movie that we did. You can see

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Speaker 2: our episode on it. But yeah, let's talk about this character.

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Speaker 2: When we first meet Sally, who is a patchwork rag

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Speaker 2: doll made of found fabrics, Her dresses made of found fabrics,

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Speaker 2: and she is stuffed with dead leaves, living in Halloween

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Speaker 2: Town in the film, she longs for independence. Her creator,

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Speaker 2: controlling mad scientists, doctor Finkelstein, definitely a reference to Doctor Frankenstein,

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Speaker 2: keeps her locked up in his tower, though she has

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Speaker 2: tried to escape several times. After the Halloween party, she

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Speaker 2: manages to get away from him by undoing the threat

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Speaker 2: on her arm, and she dismembers her arm. She does

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Speaker 2: this a lot, but due to her nature, she is

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Speaker 2: able to put herself back together. She secretly follows Pumpkin

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Speaker 2: King Jack skelling ten and her crush up to the

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Speaker 2: moonlit Spiral Hill and hears him sing about how he

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Speaker 2: isn't happy with Halloween anymore. He's bored, basically. Sally returns

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Speaker 2: to the doctor for her arm and wants it's reattached.

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Speaker 2: She tricks and poisons the doctors so she can go

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Speaker 2: to the town meeting that Jack is called, where he

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Speaker 2: gushes about his experiences in Christmas Town. A little unsettled,

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Speaker 2: Sally heads back to the tower, where the scientist locks

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Speaker 2: her up, but Sally escapes by jumping out a window

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Speaker 2: with the basket of food and drink, and in doing

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Speaker 2: so scatters her body parts in the fall, but she

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Speaker 2: easily reattaches them. She gives the basket to Jack, but

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Speaker 2: flees out of shyness. While plucking the pedals Forget Me Not,

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Speaker 2: she sees a vision of a Christmas tree bursting into flames.

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Speaker 2: She goes to warn Jack, but he dismisses her concerns.

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Speaker 2: Desperate to put an end to Jack's plan to take

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Speaker 2: up a Christmas on Christmas Eve, Sally whips up a

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Speaker 2: batch of fog making potion so that she will be

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Speaker 2: unable to take off in his sleigh.

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Speaker 1: However, Jack's dog Zero foils.

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Speaker 2: Her plan when he illuminates his nose red nose and

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Speaker 2: lights the way. Once Jack is gone, Sally overhears how

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Speaker 2: terrible his Christmas is being received, like the military is

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Speaker 2: talking about shooting him out of the sky, and decides

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Speaker 2: to rescue Santa Claus, who's being held prisoner by town

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Speaker 2: villain Oogie Boogie. Sally formulates a plan which involves distracting

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Speaker 2: a gee with a flash of her unbeknownst to him,

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Speaker 2: dismembered sexy leg as. She almost succeeds in fringing Santa,

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Speaker 2: but has captured herself. Jack, realizing what he's done, returns

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Speaker 2: to Hallween Town and fights Ugie Freese, Sali, and Santa Claus,

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Speaker 2: just in time for him Santa Claus to save Christmas,

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Speaker 2: but not before Santa issues a stern warning that she

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Speaker 2: had listen to Sally because she's the only one with any.

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Speaker 1: Sense around here.

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Speaker 2: Jack is on the verge of revealing his feelings for Sally,

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Speaker 2: but they are interrupted because they have to have that

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Speaker 2: scene in every movie. But eventually they both make their

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Speaker 2: way to the Spiral Hill and reveal their feelings for

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Speaker 2: each other, hugging and kissing or is it because We're

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Speaker 2: not gonna go in depth on this because I haven't

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Speaker 2: read these things. But in the comics and books they

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Speaker 2: get married and maybe have kids, like four kids.

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Speaker 3: I know this is a comic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, comics and book. I think I was after the fact,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, she becomes the Pumpkin Queen, and she was

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Speaker 2: the one, the only one who never gets fooled by Oki,

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Speaker 2: but gets kidnapped a lot.

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Speaker 1: She rescues Zero. I'm not sure, listeners, let us know

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Speaker 1: it came out.

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Speaker 2: The book The Pumpkin Queen came out, I think last year.

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Speaker 2: This is pretty recent, but there is some stuff I

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Speaker 2: wanted to talk about with this character because I have

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Speaker 2: been watching.

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Speaker 1: I'm behind on my Halloween.

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Speaker 2: Movies because I've been so busy, but that means I've

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Speaker 2: been like watching when I have the chance a ton

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Speaker 2: of them at once, and I think that overload of

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Speaker 2: Halloween slash horror movies brought.

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Speaker 1: Me back to that point.

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Speaker 2: Lauren and I did a whole episode on it before

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Speaker 2: you came on as host, Samantha, why didn't you believe her?

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Speaker 2: It shows up in like every horror movie. I swear

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Speaker 2: to God, there is a woman who is like, this

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Speaker 2: is bad, we shouldn't do this, and they're all like, brah,

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Speaker 2: it's under control.

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Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. And it was very present

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Speaker 1: in this movie.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because this is her like crush her,

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Speaker 2: her love, but she's also not.

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Speaker 1: Really chill was going on with this plan. She just

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Speaker 1: she tries to fail it a lot.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about that more in a suckut. Another

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Speaker 2: thing I found with the whole article about recognizing abuse,

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Speaker 2: and it was using this movie as an example, and

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Speaker 2: it was saying, like, you know, the doctor's controlling behavior

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Speaker 2: is verbal abuse. Oh yeah, it's very disturbing, like ownership

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Speaker 2: and entitlement. So here are some quotes from him. You

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Speaker 2: want me to starve an old man like me who

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Speaker 2: hardly has strength as it is me to whom you

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Speaker 2: own your very life, like very much manipulative, like say

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Speaker 2: I will die without you.

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Speaker 1: You have to stay. Here's another one. You're mine, you know,

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Speaker 1: I made you with my own hands. And then later when.

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Speaker 2: He's like dissatisfied with Sally, he makes a new version

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Speaker 2: of Sally that he says will be an improvement.

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Speaker 1: He puts like half his brain in her, I think,

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Speaker 1: And then.

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Speaker 2: There's like examples of physical abuse like locking her up,

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Speaker 2: striving her down, and holding things important to her so

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Speaker 2: she has to come back, like her arm.

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Speaker 1: There's no support in the town.

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Speaker 2: Like he's definitely not meant to be seen in a

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Speaker 2: good light. But it's very disturbing for sure, And that

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Speaker 2: brings us to the next point that she is fined

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Speaker 2: a lot through her relationships to men in her life.

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Speaker 2: She is like a damsel in distress. I guess because

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Speaker 2: she was the smart one. She was the one that

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Speaker 2: was like, this is bad, this is wrong. I've got

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Speaker 2: a need to fix it. I'll do it myself, but

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Speaker 2: still ultimately did need Jack to rescue her. That whole

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Speaker 2: idea of meant to be, which I believe is what

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Speaker 2: my pajamas say. They became like a really romantic couple,

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Speaker 2: like especially for goth emo kids, Like it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh Jack and Sally.

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Speaker 1: Which is why I said that.

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Speaker 2: Are and I have actually some different points about that,

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Speaker 2: some different quotes of people who disagree. So here's one

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Speaker 2: from Romper. The whole thing plays out like a narcissist wedge,

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Speaker 2: the story of a man who, in spite of a

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Speaker 2: great folly, gets to retain his status as compelling and

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Speaker 2: beloved genius, winding up with the quiet, mousey girl who

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Speaker 2: underplays her own ingenuity to worship him. Looking at it

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Speaker 2: from Sally's point of view, it's basically vicarious wish fulfillment

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Speaker 2: for every quiet girl who ever loved the lead singer

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Speaker 2: in a band. I will say I found this article

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Speaker 2: had like a lot of interesting points, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you read.

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Speaker 2: An article that's like, let's talk about sexism and a thing,

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Speaker 2: and it feels like the articles kind of being sexist,

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Speaker 2: and this had a few examples of that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying that was the case. There were just a few

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Speaker 2: where I was like, wait a minute.

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Speaker 3: Wait.

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Speaker 2: They also tried to make the point that Sally's a stalker,

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Speaker 2: which I think is a fair point, but also I

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Speaker 2: don't know, she's just kind of like wandering around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she discovered that he's doing something bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, maybe I need to keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on this. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And she was very shy and like not don't

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Speaker 2: get be wrong if I don't know if the genders

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Speaker 2: had been reversed, but to me it felt less stockream

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Speaker 2: more like she's trying to build up the courage, and

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Speaker 2: then Jack is singing this song and she's like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: that's a bad IDEA.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, maybe I need to stop this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and here's a quote from Marvelous Geeks Media. Unlike

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Speaker 2: everyone else, she refrains from showering Jack with constant praise

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Speaker 2: and adulation. Being in love doesn't meet ignoring the object

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Speaker 2: of your affections. Faults are staying quiet when they're about

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Speaker 2: to make a huge mistake. Sally is the only one

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Speaker 2: who tries to dissuade Jack from taking over for Christmas,

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Speaker 2: imploring that he give up on his plan to no avail.

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Speaker 2: And in this they point out some quotes from Sally's

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Speaker 2: song A Lot of People Did That, where she's kind

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Speaker 2: of like, I wish I could just go.

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Speaker 1: Along with him, but I can't. It's wrong, doesn't work

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: Jack Skellington is that guy who did a single study

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Speaker 2: abroad semester in Christmas down and thinks he knows everything,

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Speaker 2: the one who assumes that because he's really really good

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Speaker 2: at one thing, he must be equally good at anything

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Speaker 2: else he wants to do. Everyone else is so for

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Speaker 2: up Jack's bony ass that they're either enamored with everything

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Speaker 2: he says and does or too intimidated to say otherwise. Still,

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Speaker 2: it's Sally, the person who actually loves him the most,

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Speaker 2: who has enough respect for him and her own intelligence

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Speaker 2: to tell him the truth. That was a very funny

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Speaker 2: a lot of funny quotes from that article, which is

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Speaker 2: the Marvelous Geeks one. Here's a quote from Bussel Sally

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Speaker 2: even gets her own song, but the subtext that said

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Speaker 2: song is I don't see any of this working out,

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Speaker 2: including my feelings for that ridiculous man over there. That

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Speaker 2: very much goes against the classic dough white hope of

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Speaker 2: snow White or Cindrella. They were making the point that

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Speaker 2: she's technically a Disney princess because Disney helps the nightmare

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Speaker 2: before Christmas?

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Speaker 1: Is she is she consider that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean just technically a lot of people like

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Speaker 2: to fight about it, but she's in the Disney realm

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Speaker 2: of what would.

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Speaker 3: Be leading ladies.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Okay, often princess.

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Speaker 2: Not that Sally is void of positivity or doe eyes,

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Speaker 2: but she's very heavily married to realism and not waiting

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Speaker 2: for her prince or king to save the day. I

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Speaker 2: mean that guy is actually causing all this trouble place.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, she has a crush, but she doesn't passively

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Speaker 2: stand by and dwell on it. Instead, she pushes herself

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Speaker 2: to act for a better cause, making a valiant effort

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Speaker 2: to rescue Santa cause. And then I thought this was

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Speaker 2: really interesting. This is a quote I got from screenwriter

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Speaker 2: of the movie, Caroline Thompson, but I got it via

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Speaker 2: Din of Geek. If she were writing the character now,

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Speaker 2: Thompson said to al Horner, she would give Sally even

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Speaker 2: more of her own self.

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Speaker 1: Was it ending?

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Speaker 2: In particular? She feels she let the character down somewhat.

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Speaker 2: I felt like that's where I kind of threw her

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Speaker 2: under the bus. That's a less than character, where she

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Speaker 2: was sort of a meshed and enslaved in her adoration

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Speaker 2: of Jack. I wouldn't have used those words at the time,

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Speaker 2: but in retrospect, I think that's what I was feeling.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I thought that was interesting from the screenwriter. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would say it's definitely that the end always kind

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Speaker 2: of feels like, oh, they're kissing now.

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Speaker 3: To me, I mean, it's kind of the whole level

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Speaker 3: of like you can't just leave it be. They have

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Speaker 3: to be like the man has to somehow Trump. I

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Speaker 3: kind of felt that the same way about completely different genre,

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Speaker 3: but the newer version of Mad Max, Like it could

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Speaker 3: have just been left alone, but you still needed that

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Speaker 3: dude to be the one that rescues and sacrifice himself

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Speaker 3: right right.

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Speaker 2: And it's still like, as most people rightfully pointed out,

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Speaker 2: it's still Jack's story. She's not the center of this story.

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Speaker 2: And while she does have plenty of moments, we're like, okay, cool, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I like that. I like that she's still ultimately kind

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Speaker 2: of there to prop him up right and play a

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Speaker 2: role in his story. So a lot of people have

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Speaker 2: written a lot about this character, as you might be

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Speaker 2: able to too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't know it was the thirtieth anniversary.

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Speaker 3: We always do this.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of movie My friend and I

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Speaker 2: we were watching Hokus Focus, and I was like, a

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Speaker 2: lot of movies came out in nineteen ninety three, and

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Speaker 2: we went on this whole rabbit hole of like, oh this.

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Speaker 1: One too, this one too. So a lot of anniversaries

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Speaker 1: this year.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I would love to hear from listeners

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Speaker 2: if you have any thoughts about this. I had to

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Speaker 2: go find my pajamas see what they say on that.

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Speaker 2: You can email us with thoughts our suggestions for this

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Speaker 2: segments at Stephania Moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

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Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or

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Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff We've.

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Speaker 1: Never Told You.

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Speaker 2: and we have a book you can find at stuff

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Speaker 2: you Should Read books dot com. Thanks as always to

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Speaker 2: our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey.

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Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I

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