WEBVTT - Katy Perry 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:05.640 Welcome to Inside the Studio presented by I Heart Radio. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:16.560 I'm your host Joe Levy. So my guest this time 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.440 out is California girl pop princess and American Idol judge 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:25.240 Katie Perry. We talked about her new album Smile, about 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.680 how she got through the dark and difficult times that 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:32.400 followed the release of her last album, Witness, and also 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.320 about a project of hers that she'd been working on 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:40.199 with her fiancee, Orlando Bloom. Because I don't know if 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.800 you've heard, but Katy Perry just had a baby, little 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.159 girl named Daisy Dove. In fact, she was so very 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:52.160 much pregnant when we spoke that I was gonna say 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.320 she might have had the baby by the time I 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:59.200 finished this sentence, except then she actually did, and I 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.800 had to go back and re record this. And now 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.520 I've heard the pregnancy has been pretty easy, but in 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.360 later days it's been a little harder. What's What's What's up? 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:13.240 Katie Perry trains coming into the station, and no, I 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.880 mean only a couple of days. I'm like, I have 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.240 to stop and lay down. I just gotta stop. Okay, Okay, 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:21.360 I don't want to get to biological but I think 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.080 technically the train is leaving the station. It's coming into 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.720 the station, though it depends on if like the canal 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.880 as the station. This is taking a strange turn, and 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.440 I'd like to keep going down this path. My understanding, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.520 and I'm not a parent, is that the train enters 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:41.000 the station and nine months later it leaves. But wow, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.560 I guess I need to study some biology. So a 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.600 couple of things about Katie Perry. Her given name is 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:52.400 Katherine Elizabeth Hudson. Perry is her mother's maiden name. She 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.480 grew up the middle child of two Pentecostal pastor parents 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.440 in Santa Barbara, California, and she wasn't allowed to do 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.480 some normal kids stuff like eat lucky charms. I don't know, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.680 maybe because lepre cons are pagan. Also, she couldn't watch 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.280 the Smurfs, who I guess are also pagan, although now 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.800 I really want some smurfberries or marshmallow green clovers. Anyway, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.680 despite her strict religious upbringing, her right maybe because of it, 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.400 Catherine would grow up into Katie. She started out as 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.720 a more rock leaning Atlantis Morris set sort of singer songwriter, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.200 but she developed herself into a pop sensation who played 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.400 around with vintage Hollywood pin up girl and burlesque imagery, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.480 and she sang about kissing girls or having love affairs 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.480 that made you perpetually feel like a teenager checking into 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.919 a motel for the first time, or she sang about 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.960 wanting to see your peacock or whatever it is you're 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.799 hiding underneath. She also eventually became the voice of Smurfet 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.600 into Smurfs Movies in two thousand eleven, and I assume 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:01.880 at this point she's allowed to eat all the lucky 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.720 charms that she wants. Perry's first album, One of the Boys, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.400 arrived in June of two thousand and eight, which was 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.400 a real changing of the guard moment in popular music. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:17.240 Lady Gaga released her debut a few months later in October, 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.640 and in November, Taylor Swift's second album, Fearless, debuted at 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.079 number one on the Billboard two hundred. Also, you may 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.360 have heard of a British singer who released her debut 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.560 album in January of two thousand and eight. She's named 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.440 a Dell. All of these women would have boundary reshaping, 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:41.200 record setting success. The offsided stat about Katie Perry is 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.240 that her second release Teenage Dream in would become only 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.560 the second album in history after Michael Jackson's Bad to 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:54.280 produce five number one singles California Girls, Teenage Dream, Firework Et, 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.200 and Last Friday Night. There's a sixth single, the One 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.600 That Got Away, and it missed it by that much, 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.880 peaking at number three, but then in a deluxe edition 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.480 of the album added more tracks, including Part of Me, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.600 which also went to number one and which, like the 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.320 other songs I mentioned, sold more than two million digital 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:18.159 downloads in the US, which gave her another record for 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.240 the most multi platinum singles for one album. It's a 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.480 total of eight tracks selling more than two million apiece, 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.280 which is at least sixteen million song downloads, which is 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.120 a whole hell of a lot. And that kind of success, 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.159 I mean, it's a cliche, but it's hard to follow. 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.719 People are always measuring you against the mountain that you 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:42.560 climbed and not necessarily paying attention to what you're actually 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.760 accomplishing or giving them. I mean, her next album, Prison 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.880 had a mirror two number one singles Roar and dark Horse, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.880 but it was the album after that where trouble really 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.280 began for her. So the first single from that album 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.599 Witness in twenty seventeen was called Chain to the Rhythm, 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.200 and it was trying to make some sense of let's 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.479 call it a post truth America where people are drowning 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.280 in social media distortions, and this is a song we 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.599 talked about how we're all living in our own bubble bubble, 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.120 not seeing the trouble trouble. And even as someone who 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.680 thinks that pop songs can be really serious things, I 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.360 found it strange that Chained to the Rhythm talked about 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.560 how our favorite songs themselves are a distraction that keep 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.640 us stumbling around like zombies. I mean, this was like 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.760 a critique of pop music that was calling from inside 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.960 the house, and I found it pretty fascinating. It did 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.160 go to number one, after all, but let's just say 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.960 that the trying to make sense of stuff, Katy Perry 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.640 was not really the Katy Perry that people seem to want. 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.680 The album got some pretty terrible reviews. A lot of 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.800 critics reacted like they just had enough of her, and 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.120 as she told me, she had tough times coping with 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.719 things after the release of Witness, certainly the split she 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.599 went through with Orlando Bloom in seventeen didn't help any 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:13.320 and Smile is an album all about this, about coping 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.159 with it and getting over it, dealing with it. As 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.040 you can tell from the first track, which is called 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.640 never Really Over, which her relationship with Orlando Bloom was 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.799 not as it turned out, the whole idea of Smile 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.960 is Katie getting her smile back. But the interesting thing 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.400 is that she doesn't leave out the work or the 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.120 tears it took to do it. Katie told me all 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.640 about the intensive, week long therapy process that she went 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.320 through at a point when, as she put it, she 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.960 didn't feel confident she would live to see the next year. 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.599 And she talked about learning to lean less on the 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:53.520 validation of the outside world. She talked about in a 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.719 lot of ways, becoming a more whole person. Here's what 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:09.720 else she had to say. Heyy Perry, welcome to inside 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:15.160 the studio. Hello Joe, how are you? Isn't that a 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.880 loaded question? Is a loaded question? Yes it is, you've 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.960 been You've been quarantining for two This is unique. Yes, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.480 I think it's probably more it's a loaded question for everyone. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:32.200 But um, I definitely say as I'm about to give 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.800 birth to two different things, both an actual physical human 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:41.000 being and a record that I have been doing all 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.840 of my promotion in you know, quarantine, and this time 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:50.000 it's an interesting time, sure, and and and you know 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.360 a lot of women and more power to them work 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.200 into their third trimester. I really hope we get this 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.080 interview done before your water breaks. Yeah, well I'm to 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:05.400 my third trimester. I'm in my fourth trimester. I'm just kidding, No, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.280 I really you know, I think you are the last 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.200 one of the last people I get to speak with 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:16.280 before my world changes. So originally this album was at 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.360 one point it was going to arrive in June and 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.960 then in mid August, and it's it's been pushed back 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.440 a little bit. But but also you must have discussed 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.640 releasing it next year. Why why did you stick with 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.160 this year? What was the thinking behind that? Yeah, I 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.800 mean this year is a year of pivoting and going 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.280 with the flow for sure, um And anyone that like 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.160 makes hard plans besides the fact that possibly you will 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.400 have a child for me, um is you know, is 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:50.360 maybe setting themselves up for a surprise. Uh So I 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.679 wanted to put the record out in June, obviously, I 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.959 wanted to give myself a little bit more space and 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.800 not you know, go head to head with who's coming 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.400 for who's the headliner, who's the opener? Is it the child? 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.640 Is that the baby? What? Um? But I did know 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.600 that I was so excited about sharing this record that 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:15.560 actually got me to this place um of life, of 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.520 fullness of life, UM, that I didn't want to push 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.200 it to twenty one because I just know my energy 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.680 is about to shift UM and my world is about 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.199 to expand in in such an incredible way that, like 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.320 I wrote, I started kind of casually writing this record 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.439 in two thousand and seventeen, and it's really the sound shot. 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.680 I call it like the screen shot, but the sound 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.280 shot of the past three years. And I know my 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.200 next couple of years are going to be so full 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.160 and I will have so much to say, so let's 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.720 just onto the next. Plus it's a record full of 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.320 you know, hopefulness and resilience and about coming out of 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.040 the darkness. So I think if anyone is going through 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.160 that now, it could be it could be something for them. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:06.800 I mean, I think in a way, we're all going 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:08.840 through that now, to one its stand or another. It's 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.439 it's it's hard to not be in the darkness at 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:17.280 this particular time in human history, given given the pandemic. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.800 But you talk about coming out of the darkness. There 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.040 there's a note in the packaging for Smile and it's 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.440 it's actually signed Katherine, not Katie, and you you say, 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.000 many of these songs were written coming out of one 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.480 of my own darkest times, finding and fighting for the 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.839 light at the end of the tunnel. And so I 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.000 want to talk about Smile, you finding your smile again. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.760 But let's start with the dark times, because that's kind 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.839 of where the album begins, isn't it. The first few 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.760 tracks on the record. Yeah, let's let's travel back to us. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.080 So I guess travel back a few years to or 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.080 so oren. But but that's kind of where the album 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.839 begins with never really over cry about it later to 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.880 realize these are these are the darker times, right, Well, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.319 you know, actually you're you're you're making a very observant note. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.320 The sequence does tell a many story, um, and it 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.320 does start out with kind of the letting go, the 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.200 true letting go or or making a decision to let 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.680 go of this loop of love that I was in, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.840 you know, the unhealthy relationships and going like I am 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:34.480 not going to fall back into that loop. I am 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:40.160 going to choose a different path, even though it's difficult. Um. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.480 But the you know, there was it was a few 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.199 things in two thousand and seventeen. It was, um just 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:53.920 a shift in my own uh excitement and getting high 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.280 on my own supply with putting out music. It just 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:00.440 didn't really, it didn't. It didn't slap like it used 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:05.720 to UM. And I right before I put out the record, 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:10.720 I actually broke up with my now baby daddy because 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.880 I was just like, you know, I got to a 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.920 tipping point and I thought I was going to lean 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.000 on the validation of the outside world to get me 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.840 through you know, the bummer time of breaking up with someone. 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.920 But then, you know, then I wasn't getting fed from 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.600 the outside world like I was used to. So everything 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.920 started falling apart. Basically, the foundation started cracking. And I 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:40.800 didn't realize that I put so much um uh self 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.959 worth and validation and everyone else's hands, and when they 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.240 don't give it back to you, it's a huge void. Um. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.480 So we're talking about when when Witness came out, that's 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.240 that's the moment when we're it's you know, as a 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.360 Katy Perry fan, as somebody who, hey, that's not my 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.520 favorite Katie Perry record, but I like a lot of 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.120 songs on it. It's a Katie Perry record. But the 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.720 world seemed to say, like, you know what, maybe we've 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.160 had enough, maybe we want to take a break. Am 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.240 I am I exaggerating? No, you are not at all. 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:15.400 You are so right. And I felt that, and I 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.960 am a you know, I'm a master of feelings. That's 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.679 my job is to um observe and feel the feelings 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:28.360 and you know, put them into little definitions and ideas 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:33.559 and songs. I take feelings and I create worlds. So 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:39.360 I was feeling that rejection pretty heavily. Um and you 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.520 know I did. I did what a lot of artists 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.760 do at some point in their careers, is I took 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.560 a leap because I wanted to experiment. I wanted to 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:53.800 break them kind of box that I had created for 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:59.079 myself of being maybe a little too Sachard or too pop. 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:04.560 I wanted to really sonically investigate the dimensions out there. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.640 And I did. And so Witness was really my kind 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.360 of like a little bit, a little bit not too much. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.559 It wasn't like I was like going cuckoo for cocoa puffs, 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:19.360 you know, experimentally. Um. But I was definitely trying on 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.320 new things and I loved it. Um. I was just 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.440 trying to like kind of shake an old version of 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.120 myself and evolve and I didn't really know how to 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.480 do it, but this was my way of doing it artistically. Um. 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.200 And so yeah, it was um. It was a It 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.800 was a shift, and it wasn't like the biggest shift, 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.520 like I still had a number one record, I still 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.680 had success with change of the rhythm. Bona petite is 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.120 a huge you know, there's you know, if you look 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.600 at it from a numbers world or a business world, 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.800 it's not like as much as maybe I am I 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.920 I made it out to be, or as much as 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.040 I felt it. But remember I was only on a 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.560 roller coaster going up for ten years, like hot hot, hot, 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:06.200 hot fire, and any one small little shift was was 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.600 like it was like the first time, you know, you 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.720 feel an earthquake, You're like, what the hell is that? 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:17.160 I'm getting my coffee? Okay, all right, I'm glad, I'm 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.120 is it decalf Katie? Are you allowed to have caffeinated coffee? 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:26.480 I am? Thank you for your concern and also she 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:31.520 is cooked. Okay. She literally has a hand coming out 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:37.960 right now waving to you. I'm good. You were saying, oh, 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:40.400 you know, like, I'm not going to compare myself to 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.080 Bob Dylan, but when Bob Dylan did his electric record, 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.240 people were like boom, or when what's his name did 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:53.320 his eighties record? Um, I'm totally pregnancy brain. That's why 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.920 I grabbed my coffee. It's totally fine. But you know what, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.120 there are moments where people don't even have to try 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.000 different things to get negative feedback. Like I think back 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:07.720 to being a Madonna fan, Erotica comes out from from 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.880 my perspective, her most consistent record from beginning to end, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.520 the world was like, yeah, I don't want this, We 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.520 don't want this right now? Or Lady Gaga with art pop. 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.200 The world suddenly seemed to discover all at once that 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.800 she's kind of pretentious, and I was like, didn't we 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.080 know that from the start, and that one of the 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.800 reasons we enjoy her? Yeah, Like didn't we didn't? We 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.960 love the the attitude, right wow, I love that, you 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.440 know what it's and and it makes me feel like 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.640 I'm you know, I'm on the right path, and it's 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.560 really about peaks and valleys and writing it. Especially when 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.000 I hear about you know, someone like yourself. You're a 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.800 couple of years older than I am, but you've been 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.680 a music fan and you saw Erotica, You've seen Madonna 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.880 go through all those evolutions, and she's someone I really 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.560 look up to for a couple of pillars. She has 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.560 fought against agism, she has fought against sexism, she has 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.760 fought against stereotypes. Like everyone wanted to put her in 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.159 a box and she has broken. She's blown that box 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.439 up every single time. And like whatever you think about 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.760 her now, great, but like she laid the foundation, meaning 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.639 like you know, she's still evolving and still changing. And 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.040 I went and saw her last show, and if I'm 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.840 doing that at her age, I would be so lucky. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.439 Like yeah, I don't. I don't think I will be 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:39.400 uh moving aerobically for that long a period. Uh that's 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.680 the minutes of an exercise class, is what I can 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.679 get through. Not an entire Madonna production. I mean it was, 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.359 and it was really it was like it was innovative 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.320 and interesting and it wasn't phoned in. But like thinking back, 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.200 you know what you know of course, like I hear 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:01.640 about um just you know, like people talking about there's 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.840 always something shiny and new every year, right, and it's 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.600 different when you be when you're not the shiny new thing, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.360 and it does something to your psychology. But it's it's 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:16.120 it's actually it's like a good test of your character 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.520 and a good test of who you are as an 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.120 artist and what you're made of. And I just think back, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.359 like some of my favorite albums that I was aware 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.400 of because I was, you know, a little bit younger, 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.320 but Ray of Light, right after she had her baby, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.720 you know, changed my life. Confessions on a dance floor. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.520 She's in her forties, I think, you know, like, so 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.760 I look at that, I go, wow, I'm excited for 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.680 the future. Yeah. But but you were also talking about 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.160 seeking validation from outside and and that moment when Witness 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.560 came out was a moment. You may have had the numbers, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.879 you may have had the hits, but it was a 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.040 moment where what was coming back. And I don't know 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.400 how much you read criticism, but what was coming back 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.520 would be a little mean, a little pointed. And I 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.840 don't know how active you are on social media. Many 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.119 of us follow you. I don't know how much you 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.280 follow the rest of us. But did that stuff coming back, 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.720 did it get you down? Yeah? I mean I don't 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.680 have Google alerts on myself. Um, and I do wish that, like, 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.199 you know, I could be just you know, you just 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.119 put it out in the world and go there. It 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.280 is goodbye. And I do know I like and I 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.960 maybe say it out loud because I'm still telling myself 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.080 I have no control once I put it out, it 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.280 is up to the consumer. It is up to the 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.239 audience to do with it as they please. This is 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.320 just my story, this is my experience, this is my touchdone. 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.560 It's actually a real touchdone of a record. For me, 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.080 smile is to remind myself that I walked through the 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:56.560 hell and I survived it. But when Witness came out, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.560 or when any record comes out, you are more aware 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.800 because just there's so much going on and so you 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.920 will see stuff and you will hear stuff. But it 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.600 was definitely like every artist goes through a bit of 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:16.000 a leveling period, and it was definitely the leveling period. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.760 And I really believe that, you know, more than half 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.440 of the reason I'm here is because of people, and 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.600 they do have the power and they put me on 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.600 the pedestal, and they, you know, every once in a 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.760 while need to remind whoever they put on the pedestal 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.800 that they put them there and smile. You talk about 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:39.159 being served a piece of humble pie. Rejection can be 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.240 God's protection. That's a lyric that popped out at me. 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.600 Daisy's got um. It seems like a reference to this 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.399 is well, took those sticks and stones showed them I 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.159 could build a house. Right, I mean, this is this 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:56.160 is you're you're you're talking about turning around the negativity 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.560 into something useful for yourself. Well, I mean this might 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.440 stunt a little bit, like you know, spiritual hippie dippy, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:09.040 but my brokenness became my wholeness because it was like, 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:14.400 you know, I'm a scorpio. So I definitely resonate with 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.560 the continual story of the phoenix rising from the ashes 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:22.119 or the flower growing through the concrete. Like Resilient says 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.520 on the record, Um, I I learned my best lessons 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.800 from hitting the bottom sometimes or falling flat on my face. 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.520 But um, yeah, I think when I say rejection is 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:40.399 God protect God's protection or um took those six and 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.159 stones and showed him I could build a house. I 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.520 I built a new foundation and a version of me, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:51.800 not a version of me. I nurtured myself to be 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:57.560 a multidimensional human rather than just a single minded you know, 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.840 um one goal, which is to become the best pop 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.280 star ever and ring that bell and have the biggest 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.680 success tour, you know, number one, blah blah blah. Now 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.280 like now I know how to be still. Now I 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.080 know that, Like I'm going to have a baby and 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.639 be a mother. Now I know how to say no, 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:24.240 and now I know how to have like pause. I 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.399 I was on a rocket ship and holding on for 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:29.280 dear life and kind of foaming at the mouth, and 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:34.600 it just feels a lot more grounded and expansive because 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.920 I kind of got out of that loop of one 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.360 single idea of one goal, you know. Yeah, I mean 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.000 I think I'll look back and be like thanks God 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.920 for otherwise. I feel like, you know, you read these 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:56.000 stories sometimes about your favorite entertainers not having the best ending, 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:59.879 and I want to be a grandma. Okay, all right, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.040 that's putting a little pressure on the baby that hasn't 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:04.439 been born yet. But we've we've she's she's got some 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:08.399 time to catch up to your desire for grandchildren. What 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:24.280 I'm saying, So let's talk about how some of this 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:31.560 building the multidimensional Katie or Catherine happens. Um. You know, Uh, 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.600 you talked a little bit. I think it was about this, 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:37.719 and I was interested by this, so I looked it up. 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:44.240 This intensive therapy project that the Hoffman Process, um and 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.159 and I've read a little about it. You said it 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.280 was a reset for you. I know it was started 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:51.959 in the sixties by guy named Bob Hoffman. That it's 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:56.040 a week long therapy retreat and it's centered around letting 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.440 go of negative behaviors. What can you tell me about 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:02.880 It's like ten years of therapy in one week. It's 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:06.840 like concentrated juice. I'm done for that. Uh not because 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:08.640 I want to take a shortcut, because I just like, 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:10.480 you know, I don't want to fight my demons for 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:16.439 ten years. UM. So you know, it's a There's a 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:22.520 lot of different things out there, but this process definitely 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:26.879 put me on a new path. And actually my friends 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.880 had gone before me, Orlando had gone before me. Um 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.160 and I ended up going because I was like, Wow, 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.639 I don't really have any more options. I either decide 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:42.240 to change myself or I may not live to see 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:46.879 the next year. Um, and so I did it. And 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:50.520 it's basically it's one of the main things that you 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:53.439 do is you rewire the way you think about yourself. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:57.240 Which I don't know about you, but for me, I 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:00.520 have this like CNN News ticker of negat ativity that 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.480