1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Scrubbing In with and Tanya rap An iHeartRadio podcast. 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, we are scrubbing in. 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 3: Yes we art thou. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: Oh, yes we art thou. Yes we art thou. Interesting 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 2: Shakespearean with a Tanya twist. Let me tell you something. 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: I'm on one today. I feel it from you, do you? Yeah, 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: But I'm like, it's not it's kind of like a 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: little manning. I'm settling. Yeah, yeah, it's not like it's 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: not like, oh, on one good, Like it's good, I guess, 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: good energy, high energy, but like I'm kind of scared 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 2: and you shouldn't be scared. It's a good okay, great. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, never know with you never know. It's really comes 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 3: like the wind. 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: Keep us on our toes. We have a very exciting 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: guest because I have talked about Stephanie Rigg. I talked 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: about her a few podcasts ago. She really helped me. 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: She doesn't know this I will be telling her, but 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: during my like spirals while Haley was in Europe, I 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: listened to her podcast. It's called on Attachment and she's 20 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: our guest today and she's also a relationship coach. She 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: helps like specialize in people breaking free of insecurity and 22 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: anxiety to create loving, connected, deep relationships and she's worked 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: with people from multiple countries through her coaching practice and 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: online courses. And did you want to do the other 25 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: part of the intro? 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Yes? 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: Sorry, I took it over because I didn't realize you 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 2: were doing that. 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 3: I'm also a huge fan of attachment styles. I'm so 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: fascinated by it. I know my own attachment style, but 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 3: I don't know how to get out of that phase 32 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 3: or get out of my attachment styles. So since its 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: launch in early twenty twenty two, her signature program Healing 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: Anxious Attachment has helped over a thousand has helped over 35 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: a thousand people to heal their anxious attachment and move 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 3: towards a more secure way of being. 37 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: And like I said, she is the host and creator 38 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: of the top ranked podcast on attachment styles, and it's 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 2: called on Attachment Please Help Us. Welcome all the way 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: from Sydney, Australia, the wonderful Stephanie Ray. Stephanie, thank you 41 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: so much for being here. I I talked about you 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: on our recent podcast because I have had my girlfriend's 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: on tour right now and I had this realization that 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: my attachment style may have switched. So I was frantically 45 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: searching podcasts on attachment styles and yours came up, and 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: it is amazing. I love everything that you do. I 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 2: love how you speak. I love listening to your podcast 48 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: just your voice and it's so calming, but also what 49 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: you talk about. So I'm so excited to have you 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:52,839 Speaker 2: on our podcast. 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: Thanks. Becca. It's really great to be here. I think 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: that a lot of people probably find me by doing 53 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: what you do. It's like, oh, Okay, I'm experiencing something. 54 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: What is it. I've heard about attachment Google podcasts on 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: attachment and my podcast is called on Attachment, So I 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: think that's. Yeah, it's a great road for me to be. 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: But I do want to start out for people because 58 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: I'm also familiar with attachment styles and I really want 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 3: to dig into mine. But I want to lay the 60 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 3: land for everybody that's listening that might not know what 61 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: they are. So if you can explain kind of how 62 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: many attachment styles are there, and if you could just 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: kind of give a brief description of what they are. 64 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there are four attachment styles and maybe to 65 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: take a step back, attachment styles are basically describing what 66 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: we experience in relationships. And I realize that sounds broad, 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: but the best way that I like to describe it 68 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: is that your attachment style basically explains or groups people 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: based on what kinds of things are scary for me 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: in relationships, what kind of things feel hard or challenging, 71 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: and what are my go to strategies for managing that. 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: So using that as our starting point, we can walk 73 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: through the four attachment styles. So maybe we start with secure, 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: which is what we would all hope to be or become. 75 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: And you know, a really cool thing about this body 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: of work is that you can change your attachment style. 77 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: It's not something that's fixed. It's not like a diagnosis. 78 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: It's not some fixed part of you or your personality. 79 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: It's just a set of behaviors that you've probably learned 80 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: and picked up along the way over the course of 81 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: your life and come to rely on, often pretty subconsciously. 82 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: So secure attachment is basically relationships feel pretty easeful to you. 83 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: You kind of trust in the safety of relationships. You're 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 1: okay on your own, but you also really comfortable being 85 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: a relationship. You don't have this sense of, oh no, 86 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: something's going to go wrong. I'm always on edge because 87 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. There's just 88 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: this sense of easefulness and trust about the way that 89 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: you relate to others, and particularly in romantic relationships, although 90 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: also across the board, you know, you're broadly like confident 91 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: in voicing needs and setting boundaries. You trust in the 92 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: ability to work through conflict. It's all just like, Okay, 93 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: hard things will happen, but we'll be fine because we 94 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: can work through it. That's the gold standard. That's what 95 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: we're all kind of working towards in doing this work right. Unfortunately, 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: most of us, well about fifty percent is the estimate 97 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: of people who are secure for the other fifty percent 98 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: of us, and obviously those estimates are I'm always a 99 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: little skeptical because I'm like, maybe that's my bias, because 100 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm obviously mostly working with people who aren't at that 101 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: as their starting point. But I'm always a little skeptical 102 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: as to whether it is fifty to fifty The remaining 103 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: fifty percent ish fall across these three other categories of 104 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: insecure attachment. So it's referred to and maybe we'll start 105 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: with anxious attachment because that's most people who I work 106 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: with and it's also kind of my personal background and 107 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: what I've worked through anxiously attach people. If we're going 108 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: back to those questions of what kinds of things scare 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: me and what do I do with that fear to 110 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: manage it? Anxiously attach people are Okay, I'm scared by 111 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: this core fear of abandonment or fear of being without you. 112 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: So I'm scared of distance, I'm scared of uncertainty. I'm 113 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: scared of rejection. I'm scared of you leaving me. I 114 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: might struggle with things like jealousy and comparison and worry 115 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: and rumination and catastrophizing. As soon as there's any kind 116 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: of space between us, I'm filling in the blanks with 117 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: like the worst possible thing that could happen. What do 118 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: I do with that? To manage that fear? I try 119 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: and close the gap. So I'm going to want to 120 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: be around you all the time as much as possible, 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: because if I feel like you're right there and next 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: to me, then there's not as much space for those 123 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: fears to take hold and to you know, do their thing. 124 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: So pretty much all of those anxious attachment strategies could 125 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: be distilled down to I want to close the gap 126 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: and get back to connection with you. Whenever I feel 127 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: like there's any sort of disconnection or distance, I want 128 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: to squash it and to get us back into connection. 129 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: So then we have at the other end of the 130 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: spectrum to the anxiously attached person, we have the dismissive avoidant. 131 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: And I do want to say I know that in 132 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, kind of pop culture, and 133 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: if you have come across attachment styles at are probably 134 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: a pretty surface level online, I think avoidance get a 135 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: really bad rap, and I understand why because if you're 136 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of some of the more challenging 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: avoidant behaves, it can be pretty painful, frankly. And I 138 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: think we also have to come back to this thing 139 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: of you know, they have fears and they're managing those 140 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: fears the only way they know how. So for the 141 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: avoidant person, the fear is around loss of self, being smothered, 142 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: being controlled, you know, losing your independence, feeling like someone 143 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: is depending on you in a way that feels overwhelming 144 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: and suffocating. And the way that they can manage that 145 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: is by creating distance, right, so by kind of pushing 146 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: someone away or being protective of their autonomy, being protective 147 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: of their independence, but basically returning to their island because 148 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: that feels safe. And so that's kind of the other 149 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum to the anxious person. And we 150 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: can get into a bit later the irony of the 151 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: fact that those types tend to gravitate towards each other, 152 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: which seems like, you know, the last thing that should happen, 153 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: but it actually happens a lot. Then the fourth category 154 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: is what's referred to as fearful avoidant or disorganized attachment. 155 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: And this is a person who ranks high on both 156 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: anxiety and avoidance, so they've kind of got you can 157 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: either say, the best or the worst of both worlds there. 158 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: So they experience the anxiety and they want to be 159 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: close to people, and then once they get close, it's like, 160 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: well this feels too much. I got to get out 161 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: of here. And so they tend to have a lot 162 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: of push pull and a lot of kind of fear 163 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and stress and relationships understandably because they have these conflicting 164 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: drives within them that are saying like get close, and 165 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: then once you're closed, it's like, Okay, get out of here. 166 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: This is too much and So that's kind of the 167 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: experience of the fearful avoidant, is having that desire for 168 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: intimacy and closeness and connection, but once you get it, 169 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: being really terrified and pulling away. So their strategies can 170 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: kind of range from anxious strategies to more pure avoidance strategies, 171 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: and often when they're in stress, they'll lean more on 172 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: avoidant strategies, And it can kind of depend on the 173 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: context and who they're in relationship with. So if they're 174 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: in relationship with someone who is more anxious, they're likely 175 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: to lean more on their avoidant strategies because they're going 176 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: to be more in that overwhelmed place, whereas if they 177 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: were with someone who was more avoidant, then their anxious 178 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: parts might be triggered and activated and they might go 179 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: more inwards, go kind of try and get closer because 180 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: those anxieties are being activated by the other person's behavior. 181 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: Wow, I have a question about So you said fifty 182 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: percent are securely attached, which feels like a lot, feels 183 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: way more than I would be like rude, I don't 184 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: buy it. Do attachment styles stamp Like are some people 185 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: just secure? 186 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: Like? 187 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: Are they just secure? Is it that people work on 188 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 2: themselves and go to therapy and do these types of 189 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: things to get to a place of security or are 190 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: people just naturally secure in relationships? And where do that 191 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: where you suspicious? 192 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: Isn't it pit it by it so that when we're 193 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: talking about like fifty percent a secure at least according 194 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: to theory, that is like their starting point, and that 195 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: is because you know, all of this attachment stuff originates 196 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: in childhood for the most part, and so that we're 197 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: talking there about fifty percent are secure as a starting point. Again, 198 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm really skeptical of that. And it's important to note 199 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: as well that this all sits on a spectrum, and 200 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: it's not like you go in one bucket and you 201 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: are in that bucket to the exclusion of all the 202 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: other buckets. So it does sit on a spectrum. And 203 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: you might be someone who's broadly secure, and if you're 204 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: in a healthy relationship, that might be kind of where 205 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: you're hanging out. But most people will have kind of 206 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: secondary styles or strategies. So if you were broadly secure, 207 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: but then you got into a relationship with someone who 208 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: was very avoidant, then you might exhibit more anxious strategies 209 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: or vice versa. So I think it is messier than 210 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: just saying like I am this, and I started as this, 211 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: and now I am this, and it's all really clean 212 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: and compartmentalized. I think the reality is that it is 213 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: messier than that. And I'm always cautious about getting too 214 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: attached to the labels. I think sometimes people really want 215 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: to be like, which one am I. I think that I, 216 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, kind of that resonates with me. But then 217 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: I did this quiz online and now I'm very confused 218 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: and I've got to get to the bottom of which 219 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: attachment style I am. And it's like, yeah, yes, and 220 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: does it really matter? Like it's just a tool. It's 221 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: not a diagnosis. It's not something where you need to 222 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: like figure out which bucket you're in before you can 223 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: do anything. Whether it you can just go, oh, okay, 224 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: that resonates with me. Can I get curious about that? Oh? 225 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: I do notice that I really struggle with uncertainty or 226 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: distance in my relationships. I wonder what that's about for me. 227 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: So I always encourage people to take a bit more 228 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: of a nuanced and curious, a curious approach rather than 229 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: getting too fixated on labels and kind of categories. 230 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was me taking the closes. It's just spiraling 231 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: out of control. 232 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 3: Well, like I know, like I know what I am, 233 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: and I do I know what I'm anxious attachment. I'm 234 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 3: anxiously attached, and I feel like obviously, securely attached is 235 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: the goal for everybody. So what's like one first step 236 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: that you can take to get to that secure attachment? 237 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 2: Because I've been working at it for years and still here. 238 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: It's a journey. No, I mean, I have also been 239 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: working on it for years, and I'd like to say 240 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: that I'm the way that I describe it to people 241 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: because I always get asked like, can you ever actually 242 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: if you're anxiously attached, is there ever like a light 243 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel where I don't experience 244 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: anxious attachment anymore? And the way that I answer that 245 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: is like yes and no. It's not like it's going 246 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: to just evaporate and you're never going to feel that 247 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: way again. That's probably been with you for a really 248 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: long time and there's just like a level of muscle 249 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: memory around it where you're like, oh, that's where I 250 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: go in a flash, right when I'm triggered, when I'm scared. 251 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: That's where I go because my body knows how to 252 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: do that, and it's learned to do that to keep 253 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: me safe. That's not a problem, there's nothing wrong with that. 254 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: But what the goal of the work is really like, 255 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: can I get to a place where I have some 256 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: sort of choice, where I feel like I'm in the 257 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: driver's seat of that rather than this anxious part of 258 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: me grabs the wheel and drives me off a cliff 259 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: to this place that feels really out of control of 260 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: panicky and stressed, and I feel like I'm not okay 261 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: if my relationship is not okay, which is really anxious attachment, 262 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: is like I'm okay if we're okay and you're here 263 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: and I feel like everything's all right. But if not, 264 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: even if you're just in a bad mood and you're 265 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: a bit quiet, all of the alarm bells go up 266 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: in me and I'm like, oh, what's wrong? What's wrong? 267 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: And you're okay? Are you mad at me? What did 268 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: I do? Can I fix it? Can I get us 269 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: back to harmony? Because I experience any kind of even 270 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: tiny momentary rupture as a precursor to abandonment. I feel 271 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: like you're going to leave me or you're angry at me, 272 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: or you are disappointed in me and you don't love 273 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: me or whatever. Right, so all of those things can happen. 274 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: So to answer your question of like what do we 275 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: do with that, I think for anxiously attach people, the 276 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: big piece, the biggest piece is learning to create safety 277 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: within yourself. Because if that's kind of your experience, I 278 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: know it's been mine, you'll know that it's really really 279 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: hard to create safety from within. We get our safety 280 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: from other people, and so if there is something wrong 281 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: in our relationship, if we have a fight, or our 282 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: partners away or whatever, any of that distance I was 283 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: speaking about earlier, it's like I don't know how to 284 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: be my own power source here. I'm just I need 285 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: to like plug back into you before I can feel okay. 286 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: And that's a really kind of disempowering place to be 287 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: because we're you know, it's not to shame ourselves for 288 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: wanting connection and closeness, because that's perfectly human and normal 289 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: and natural. But there's a difference between wanting it and 290 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: needing it from a place of survival, Like I am 291 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: not okay without you, that's not like that. That's a 292 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: really hard way to live. Right. It means that we 293 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: are so reliant on something outside of us, and so 294 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: we want to come back to a bit more balance around. Okay, 295 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: I can like, I can be connected to you, but 296 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: I can also stand on my own two feet and 297 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: know that I'll be okay. So learning tools for being 298 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: more comfortable in yourself and with yourself, whether that's on 299 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: a day to day basis or when you're triggered, ideally both, 300 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: but being able to bring yourself to this kind of 301 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: embodied personal experience of like I'm okay in the world, 302 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: just me, and then we can relate from a place 303 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: that isn't so anxiety driven or fear based, or like 304 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: I need this, like this kind of clutching energy, I 305 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: need this in order to be okay. 306 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say my whole life, I've lived probably 307 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 2: on the border of secure and avoidant. And then I 308 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 2: was so confident that I was secure until I fell 309 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: in love, and then I was like, oh, this all 310 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: my advice that I'd give to my friends has gone 311 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 2: out the window because now I'm experiencing all these feelings. 312 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: And so I feel like in the beginning of our relationship, 313 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: my girlfriend and I have been together for five years 314 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: and in the beginning, I would say that she was 315 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: anxiously attached and I was more avoidant. So we would 316 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: have these conflicts of like her being like needing me 317 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 2: and being really anxious, and I would shut down or 318 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: like need space. And then I don't know if it 319 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: was during the pandemic, I don't know where there was 320 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: a shift, but when she went on tour this time, 321 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: especially with the time change in Europe, I was with 322 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: her for the first week and then as soon as 323 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: I left, like it was like immediate panic and I 324 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: was like, this is not me, Like I don't feel 325 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: like myself. I don't know why I'm in this spiral. 326 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 2: It was the first tim where I couldn't like talk 327 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 2: myself out of the feeling the feelings, which is it 328 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: was kind of a scary feeling because I was like 329 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: who is this person? Like who what? Why is this happening? 330 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: And how why can't I stop it? And so that's 331 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: why I was like I need to figure out what's 332 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: going on? How do I get out of this cycle? 333 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 2: So I know that you know, Tanya and I have 334 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: talked a lot about her attachment being anxious, and. 335 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 3: I've been anxious my whole life, Like it's it's not 336 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 3: just in my relationship that I'm in now, it's in 337 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: all my relationships, and like, I know we joke about 338 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: it a lot on the podcast, but it's like I'll 339 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: text my friend. If they don't text me back within 340 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: five minutes, I'm like, where are you? 341 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: What are you doing? 342 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: Hello? 343 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: Hello? Hello, Like it's in all my relationships. 344 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: She's hit me, or you did? 345 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 3: I see you're at your house, so I know you're 346 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 3: not anywhere else, So are you not responding to me? 347 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 2: I know? It's like and that was the whole thing, 348 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: was like I need to be able to self soothe 349 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 2: because I don't want I don't ever want to have 350 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: to rely on someone to have to take care of 351 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: that part of me. Like I want to be able 352 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 2: to do it on my own. 353 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 3: But I could teach you how to self soothe, if 354 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, I'm. 355 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: Going to go to the profession. But I'm curious, like 356 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: when for someone who maybe gets into that spiral and 357 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: is like at that low point of like how do 358 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: I get out of this? What what do you do? Like? Really, 359 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: what are what is an action where you're like, okay, 360 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: try this to get out of this head space, like 361 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: what do you turn to? 362 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, So again it's frustratingly there's no one thing. 363 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: But what I really encourage people to do, and a 364 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: big part of my work is blending all of the 365 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: stuff where we can analyze ourselves and get curious about, 366 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: like oh, my wounds and my fears and all of 367 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: that intellectual stuff with understanding our nervous system. And the 368 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: reality is when you're in that state of trigger and 369 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: your body, like your body can feel like my body 370 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: feels like I'm on fire. Why do I have this 371 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: giant lump in my chest? Why can't I breathe past 372 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: you know, you know, past my throat and all of 373 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: that is a body experience, and that is our nervous system. 374 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: And that is a system that is running all the 375 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: time without our realizing it, and it's just doing this 376 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: constant assessment of am I safe or am I in danger? 377 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: Right in this moment, like all of us sitting here, 378 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: if there was a weird noise in the background, our 379 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: system would just fire up immediately and would tell us 380 00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: to go and do something about it. It's doing that 381 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: all the time, and it does that in relationships. So 382 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: if ever something happens. In your case, Becker, this distance, 383 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: there's something in your system that's going, all of a sudden, 384 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: this distance doesn't feel safe. And so I'm going into 385 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: this thing of oh, we need to do something, what's wrong? 386 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: Why is this happening? And then there's another part of 387 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: you that's going, I shouldn't be feeling like this, I 388 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: should be fine with this? What's wrong with me? And 389 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: there's just all of these layers of like, this isn't safe, 390 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: this isn't safe, this is bad, this is wrong. And 391 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: so I think as a starting point, just releasing the 392 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: grip on needing all of that to make sense. I 393 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: think a really important first piece is stop judging yourself 394 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: for feeling what you're feeling. The way that I kind 395 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: of visualize that is imagining the starting feeling of anxiety 396 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: or stress as like a clenched fist inside you. And 397 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: then when we come over the top of it with 398 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: like I shouldn't be feeling like this, it's like clenching 399 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: another fist over the top. It's just adding more stress 400 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: to a system that's already stressed. So rather than going, oh, 401 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: I should be fine without her, I shouldn't be doing 402 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: this this is bad, this is wrong. Can we just 403 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: go huh okay? Interesting? 404 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 2: Ah? 405 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: I noticed that I'm feeling stressed. I noticed that I'm 406 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: feeling really anxious. Isn't that interesting? I used to be 407 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: fine with this. I wonder what's new for me here? 408 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: I wonder what this is about for me? And just 409 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: like the tone of those things is so different. So 410 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: even just starting with that with not like judging, criticizing, 411 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: shaming yourself for feeling however you're feeling, and instead being like, ah, okay, 412 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: feeling's just a feeling, it's just information. Interesting. Can I 413 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: get curious about it? I think start with that, and 414 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: then we want to go, okay, what do I need 415 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: to bring my body back to some semblance of regulation? 416 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: Which is kind of to use nervous system speak. So 417 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: there's this concept in polyvagel theory nervous system stuff, which 418 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: is your state creates your story. Meaning if your nervous 419 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: system is in a vital flight state, which is what's 420 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: happening when you're feeling really activated and stressed and panicky 421 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: and anxious, then your thoughts follow that state. It's like 422 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: you're putting on goggles and everything you think and see 423 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: and feel and perceive is going to be kind of 424 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: I don't want to say poising because that makes it 425 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: sound really negative, but it's going to be infused with 426 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: the energy of this isn't safe, this is bad, sort 427 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: of like when you are awake at three am and 428 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: your heart's racing and you think the most catastrophic thoughts 429 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: that just come out of nowhere, You're like, oh, good, 430 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: what else can I like fish out from the depths 431 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: of my soul? That could be, you know, the most 432 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: horrendous thing that could ever happen. Why don't I think 433 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: about that? 434 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 3: Right? 435 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 1: Our thoughts are following the state that we're in, and 436 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: so we need to kind of work backwards from the 437 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: state we're in so that our thoughts can become a 438 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: little bit more reasonable and a little bit less fear 439 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: based and catastrophic. So doing things as simple as if 440 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: you're in that really activated state, doing things like exercising 441 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: is really good because it's kind of just getting that 442 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: energy out, sort of in the way that like dogs, 443 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: when they're really really worked up, they'll shake and it's 444 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: like a reset button on them. We kind of need 445 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: to do that as well. I think we forget that 446 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: we're animals sometimes and so working with Okay, I've got 447 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: all of this really intense charged energy flowing through me. 448 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Can I do something with that? Can I go for 449 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: a walk? Can I go for a run? Can I 450 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: do some sort of workout that allows me to reset 451 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: my system? That can be a really good short term 452 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: way to regulate other things. And this is sort of 453 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: why I said, like, you want to build out your toolbox, 454 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: so you don't want to just have one thing, because 455 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: if you're feeling really anxious and you're on a plane, 456 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: you're not going to go for a run, right, So 457 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: it's like we need to have different things that we 458 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: can reach for depending on where we are, and you know, 459 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: a million different contextual factors that might constrain what we 460 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: can do. So like breathing exercises can be good if 461 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: you're in a more like, if you've got five minutes 462 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: between meetings and you're really anxious, a breathing exercise could 463 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: be good. Or some people like journaling or you know, 464 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: calling a friend. There's a million things that we can do, 465 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: but we just need to figure out what they are 466 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: and almost like have them as a mental or an 467 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: actual list so we can go Okay, huh, I notice 468 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: I'm feeling really anxious. I'm feeling like totally spinning out 469 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: what do I need and just going through that process 470 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: of like coming back and going what do I need 471 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: in my body right now? Rather than staying up here 472 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: in our heads and going why am I feeling like this? 473 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be feeling like this? Is there something wrong? 474 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: Do I need to do something? This is bad? And 475 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: it's just like you know, kind of the train goes 476 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: off into the sunset, it's just too much and it's 477 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: really hard to catch it when we just let it go, 478 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: so trying to catch it earlier and bring it back 479 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: down and really see it for what it is. It's 480 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: just like, Okay, something of my body's feeling like we're 481 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: in danger right now? Is that true? 482 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: Like? 483 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: What do I need to create a bit more safety 484 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: in my body? And then, you know, whatever panicky thoughts 485 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'll revisit them in you know, ten minutes 486 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: or half an hour when my body has come back 487 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: down a bit and I can assess whether that was 488 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: just you know, driven by all of that anxiety in 489 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: my system, or whether there's actually something that needs my 490 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: attention there. But were just really, our ability to make 491 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: good judgment calls when we're in that state is just 492 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: so out the window. It's no point trying to decide something, 493 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: to have a hard conversation, to speak to someone about 494 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: something serious, like just don't do it when you're in 495 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: that state, because you've just got those goggles on that 496 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: are saying everything's dangerous right now, and that's it's really 497 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: hard to kind of hack that system when that part 498 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: of you is at the wheel. 499 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: That is so true. My girlfriend was very patient because 500 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: she somehow remained calm when like every we would like 501 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: end a conversation, then I'd be like stewing over like 502 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: what else was like going out into my head and 503 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 2: I'd be like I need to talk about this, and 504 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: it was just like a downward spiral. But I think 505 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 2: the first thing you said, I think was such a 506 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: that really resonated with me. The shame, Like I felt 507 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: a lot of shame in it. And so instead of 508 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: like acknowledging and being like, Okay, don't know what's going on. 509 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: This isn't like you, but it's okay, you know, like 510 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: everything's gonna be okay, you'll figure it out, I was 511 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: just I never even let myself get to that point 512 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: because I felt so much, I was like judging myself 513 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 2: that I was out of character for how I felt, 514 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 2: my how I see myself. 515 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, which sort of makes sense if you know, you 516 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: said that you have tended towards being more avoidant in 517 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: the past. So this's probably a part of you that goes, 518 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: it's not safe for us to feel anxious and clinging 519 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: and needy. This is this is not okay. We've like, 520 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 1: we've relied on the strategies where we don't need anyone 521 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: and we just pull away and we're fine on our own. 522 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: So it might have been really destabilizing for your system 523 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, no, I feel needy, I miss 524 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: my partner, I want to go back, I want to 525 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: be with her. Where is she. There's another part of 526 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: you that's like absolutely not shut that down. That's no good, 527 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: that's unsafe, it's pathetic, it's weak. Don't go there. You 528 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: are reliant on something in a way that is like 529 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: not okay. And so you've got like this inner war 530 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: going on between the fears and this other part of 531 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: you that's been a really strong protector that's been like, no, 532 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: we don't do stuff like that. Because it's not safe, 533 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: and so it makes a lot of sense. And when 534 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: we can see it like that, we go, oh okay, 535 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: that makes sense, and all of a sudden, it's just 536 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: like everything settles a bit. It's like a snow globe. 537 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Like my part, you know, 538 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 2: I've always been like, it's fine, out need anybody like everything. 539 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 3: So she was very avoidant and now she's like me, welcome, 540 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 3: Welcome to this life. 541 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 2: So it's not the journey I was trying to be on. 542 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I have so many I'm like, I want 543 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: to do a part two with you where we have 544 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: you back on to talk just more about this because 545 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: I think both Tanya and I could go on for 546 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: days talking to you. But I do want to give 547 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: people an opportunity to follow you because I know your 548 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: instagram has a lot of just like tips and tricks 549 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: and ways to kind of learn more about attachment style. 550 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 2: So where can everyone follow you and your podcast? And 551 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: then also you're coaching, I want to hear more about 552 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: that as well. 553 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So my instagram is Stephanie Underscore, Underscore, Rigri DOUBLEG 554 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: and my podcast is called on Attachment. So I released 555 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: two episodes a week there and there's everything we've talked 556 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: about today and a whole lot more. So you can 557 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: find me there. And then my website is stephanieriigg dot 558 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: com and I have online courses. I have a course 559 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: called Healing Anxious Attachment, which is kind of my signature 560 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: program that a lot of people have done and has 561 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: been has been a real help to a lot of 562 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: people in working through this stuff and learning all of 563 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: these tools right, not only understanding yourself, but learning about 564 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: nervous system regulation, learning about how to set boundaries, and 565 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: just kind of equipping you with that toolbox that I 566 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: spoke about so that you don't feel so overwhelmed and 567 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: powerless when these things arise, because they will arise. That's 568 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: the like gitty thing about it. Just we can't opt 569 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: out of like triggers in relationship. We can't opt out 570 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: of conflict. So it's more about like, Okay, how can 571 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: I equit myself with the tools I need to navigate 572 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: that when it arises, rather than how can I never 573 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: get triggered again? 574 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point, because the triggers do come 575 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: whether no matter how old you are. Should we do 576 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: the course together? 577 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to have you. 578 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: Yes, well, thank you so much for taking time to 579 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: be on here. 580 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 581 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: I can't wait to talk to you again. It was 582 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: so great meeting you and thanks for all you. 583 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: Do my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 584 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: Guys, all right, great rest of your day. Hye bye