Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: If you don't know Sadete Harry, she is one of
Speaker 1: my heroes, and a piece that she wrote for Wired
Speaker 1: magazine interrogating the way that technology sees black women is
Speaker 1: actually one of the biggest inspirations for this podcast. Sadet
Speaker 1: is constantly speaking truth to power and technology, and I
Speaker 1: was lucky enough to sit down with her for a
Speaker 1: live taping of There Are No Girls on the Internet
Speaker 1: in New York City during Unfinished Live, a festival celebrating technology,
Speaker 1: culture and the arts, where Sadek got really real about
Speaker 1: power and technology. And if you want to hear Sudet again,
Speaker 1: you are in luck. She'll be back at Unfinished Live
Speaker 1: September one, both I r L from New York City
Speaker 1: and streaming online. She'll be joined by some of the
Speaker 1: most interesting people in technology and culture like Dr Sophia Noble,
Speaker 1: Denis Duncan, Bartender Thurston, and the founding member of Pussy Riot.
Speaker 1: You might even see me there, so if you do,
Speaker 1: be sure to come say hi. Go to Live dot
Speaker 1: Unfinished dot com for tickets, and please enjoy this live
Speaker 1: episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet from
Speaker 1: Unfinished Live last year. Hello everyone, Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being here. How's everybody feeling? Yeah? Uh, my name
Speaker 1: is Bridget Todd. I am the creator and host of
Speaker 1: the podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. Um,
Speaker 1: this is my first ever live show, So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being here. It means so much to me.
Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled to be here with my guest, the
Speaker 1: brilliant Sidette Harry give it up for Todette. Hello. So
Speaker 1: a little bit about my podcast For folks who don't know,
Speaker 1: it's called There Are No Girls on the Internet. And
Speaker 1: one of the first questions I often get is what's
Speaker 1: with that name? What do you mean there are no
Speaker 1: girls on the Internet. Well, there's an old saying that
Speaker 1: everybody on the Internet is a guy, and if they
Speaker 1: say they're a woman, they're just pretending they're not actually
Speaker 1: a woman. Or if they are a woman online, that
Speaker 1: identity doesn't actually matter. You know, we're all the same
Speaker 1: on the internet, and so that exactly so that identity
Speaker 1: and all of the issues that come along with that identity,
Speaker 1: there's this misconception that we just leave it at the door,
Speaker 1: And I actually truly believed both of these things for
Speaker 1: a very long time. I believe that black queer women
Speaker 1: like me were outliers and technology and the internet, and
Speaker 1: I believe if we did show up in these places,
Speaker 1: our identities and all of the issues connected with those
Speaker 1: identities well just didn't matter. You know, we left them
Speaker 1: on the door when we've logged in. But that is
Speaker 1: not true. Women, black folks, people of color, queer folks,
Speaker 1: people who have all been traditionally marginalized. We've been showing
Speaker 1: up online to make it better, safer, more fun, more inclusive.
Speaker 1: And we've been there from the very beginning. I mean,
Speaker 1: think about it. What would the internet be like without
Speaker 1: black folks, queer folks, trans folks. It would be so boring, y'all.
Speaker 1: It would just be journalists making boring jokes and having
Speaker 1: boring opinions about baseball. Right. We couldn't even have that
Speaker 1: without black people because a lot of journalists boring jokes
Speaker 1: are stolen from black interactions, thank you, thank you. What
Speaker 1: would they report about if it wasn't watching us exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: It would be a nightmare without us. But because people
Speaker 1: from traditionally marginalized backgrounds. We've always been there since the
Speaker 1: very beginning, and we often are the ones doing the unpaid, difficult,
Speaker 1: sometimes dangerous, and personal personally costly work of making Internet
Speaker 1: spaces safer, better, more inclusive, and better. And when we
Speaker 1: do this work, it's not just for us as marginalized people.
Speaker 1: This work makes spaces better and safer for everyone. Um,
Speaker 1: and so I want to give you a little pop
Speaker 1: quiz to sort of illustrate what I mean. So, which
Speaker 1: of the following and I know that you know answers?
Speaker 1: Which of the following is something that we know about
Speaker 1: the Internet. Ahead of the election, an army of fake
Speaker 1: social media accounts targeted black voters in an attempt to
Speaker 1: destabilize our election process. Two, Facebook's moderation practices disproportionately removed
Speaker 1: posts from black people talking about our experiences with racism. Lastly,
Speaker 1: on TikTok, white supremacist groups create extremist content using TikTok's
Speaker 1: own features, not just to avoid detection, but to even
Speaker 1: have their content surface on users for you page. So,
Speaker 1: which one of those three things is the thing that
Speaker 1: we know about the internet? Raisor hand you think it's
Speaker 1: one raisor hand you think it's too how about three? Okay,
Speaker 1: so if you said all of the above, good job,
Speaker 1: you get a name. Here's another question. Of all of
Speaker 1: those things I just said, which of those things are
Speaker 1: things that black organizers, black social media users, black cultural
Speaker 1: critics have been vocally raising the alarm about for a
Speaker 1: very long time? And he guesses all of the above,
Speaker 1: you guys are all getting it perfectly. She said, all
Speaker 1: of the above, you would be right. And a piece
Speaker 1: for Wired called listening to Black Women the innovation that
Speaker 1: tech can't quite figure out. My guest today, the brilliant
Speaker 1: cultural critic and all around tech troublemaker Sedet argues that
Speaker 1: when black women speak up about the abuses and harms
Speaker 1: that we face online, people with power just don't listen.
Speaker 1: That is, until that harm is experienced by other users.
Speaker 1: She writes, harmful behavior towards black women isn't enough to
Speaker 1: inspire change until others are harmed. But the original harms
Speaker 1: are often lost by journalists task with covering tech. The
Speaker 1: power and rhetoric that went unchecked becomes common, and tactics
Speaker 1: used to gets black women for lulls become weapons used
Speaker 1: in conspiracies destabilizing the very nature of truth, from the
Speaker 1: swarming of victims to posing as black women to destabilize
Speaker 1: communities or even countries. Defining the systemic abuse becomes a
Speaker 1: frustrating exercise of describing an empty space that no one
Speaker 1: believes is there. If we can fall, surveil, and automate everyone,
Speaker 1: how could we miss anything important? And if that and
Speaker 1: if and if it isn't important, it is only important
Speaker 1: for how it changes the mythical standard user, no matter
Speaker 1: how many people were hurt before. So so that when
Speaker 1: I heard those words, I have to tell you it
Speaker 1: was the impetus for me creating my podcast at all
Speaker 1: in general, because it made me feel so sane as
Speaker 1: a black woman showing up online. I think people often
Speaker 1: miss our issues, and you spoke to it so beautifully
Speaker 1: in that piece. And so I'm so excited to talk
Speaker 1: to you today about that harm, what accountability looks like
Speaker 1: for folks who have ignored that harm, enabled that harm,
Speaker 1: and in some cases profited from that harm, And how
Speaker 1: we move forward to an Internet that meaningfully listens to
Speaker 1: black women. Oh my gosh, you never told me that before.
Speaker 1: It's true. First and foremost, I want to do the
Speaker 1: thing where we name the fact that this is my
Speaker 1: second kind of public thing without a face mask. Then
Speaker 1: that doesn't involve like family members, so im fidgety um.
Speaker 1: These are all things, and it's like, let's be honest
Speaker 1: about the place we are in and the level of
Speaker 1: comfort we are feeling, because part of the work is
Speaker 1: just we like high tech solutions, we like the things
Speaker 1: that are shining and sexy, but we are ultimately all
Speaker 1: using the web for our lives. We need to use
Speaker 1: the web to connect to each other. We need to
Speaker 1: use the web at this point to get groceries, get vaccines,
Speaker 1: to do our jobs. And the issue with what I've
Speaker 1: seen and what I've experienced with specifically that piece that
Speaker 1: led to the writing of that piece, is that there's
Speaker 1: no way around when you have certain marginalizations or even
Speaker 1: in the current world, for you not to be online.
Speaker 1: There's no way for you not to bring your whole
Speaker 1: self to the work you do online the way you
Speaker 1: are online. What usually happen is that you package it
Speaker 1: so that whoever you're dealing with at the time feels comfortable,
Speaker 1: but you're still your whole self. You're still having all
Speaker 1: of these issues and with some of the things that
Speaker 1: we talked about. I wrote that in January. I've never
Speaker 1: told the story about that article, but I am. And
Speaker 1: it's kind of indicative to the way I've been online
Speaker 1: most of my life. But what happened was it was
Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor, Rest in Peace, Rest and power. The protests
Speaker 1: started for Brianna Taylor, and there was a uproar of
Speaker 1: how could we have known? And what is going on?
Speaker 1: And we're well, how do we do this? And a
Speaker 1: lot of this was also in post George Floyd. But
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened is people were just like,
Speaker 1: how do we really describe this? Where is this thing?
Speaker 1: And I had written the art and article for Model
Speaker 1: View Culture about people posing as black women in in
Speaker 1: two um kind of dry the web wed ridden feminism
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen. It had been a and phenomenon we
Speaker 1: had been explosing in twenty thirteen. And if we're talking
Speaker 1: about last year, so how many years ago is that?
Speaker 1: How many years passed? Seven? Now we work in tech,
Speaker 1: we are in social media. You certainly become sexy and hot.
Speaker 1: Usually it moves within minutes or months the metaverse and
Speaker 1: f t s those blow up and go in months,
Speaker 1: but suddenly to talk to black women take seven months.
Speaker 1: And the editor of Wire at the time said something,
Speaker 1: and I was like, pay me to write this. I
Speaker 1: just said, maybe if you just paid me to write this,
Speaker 1: and a lot of things went back and forth, and
Speaker 1: then pandemic was happening. I said that in June. The
Speaker 1: article got published in January, so that still took an
Speaker 1: additional seven months. And that is a common theme for
Speaker 1: things that have to do with women, I think often
Speaker 1: in general, specifically women of color. And once I finished
Speaker 1: writing the article, Facebook whatever, what have you? What has
Speaker 1: dropped within the past couple of weeks we are getting
Speaker 1: which is a really great piece of journalism, the Facebook reports,
Speaker 1: but they're in Wall Street Journal. They've been the Facebook
Speaker 1: podcast and one of the reports and this was really
Speaker 1: done in depth for the m I T Technology Review
Speaker 1: points out that something like five of the top ten
Speaker 1: revenue slash groups may for centered on black people, and
Speaker 1: like three of the ten for indigenous people are fake
Speaker 1: and are known to be fake pretending to be black people.
Speaker 1: I wrote this. I wrote my article in Model View
Speaker 1: Culture in twenty fourteen. I wrote an article for Wired
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty there was a report that went to
Speaker 1: the Senate from Oxford. So this is not a small
Speaker 1: independent report. It was an Oxford And we also have
Speaker 1: Sherne Mitchell and the Audience who wrote who wrote a
Speaker 1: report about this in I think also seventeen and at
Speaker 1: various points. So we had all of this, but suddenly
Speaker 1: it becomes a thing when Wall Street General writes about
Speaker 1: it. It It becomes a thing like even Oxford couldn't get
Speaker 1: these people off. It wasn't the Senate hearing. Like one
Speaker 1: of the things that I say is like bam. This
Speaker 1: was also in the Amnesty International report, and that was
Speaker 1: an interesting thing because I was interviewed for that report
Speaker 1: and I've made some very specific comments on race and
Speaker 1: got told in the way that women who are multiply
Speaker 1: marginalized are often told, it's divisive what you said, so
Speaker 1: we're pulling it out. And what I said was the
Speaker 1: first targets of these issues are usually black women. We
Speaker 1: don't pay attention, and in fact, we incentivize not paying
Speaker 1: attention because it makes great leaders and people get very
Speaker 1: good at talking about misinformation or harm online by making
Speaker 1: those people usually singly marginalized white women. But it was
Speaker 1: divisive and that I think four of those Facebook groups
Speaker 1: have been mentioned in the study by Oxford after which
Speaker 1: was still done after the studies and the observations of
Speaker 1: black women, and once they were mentored in the Wall
Speaker 1: Street Journal article and the reports, how long do you
Speaker 1: think it took them to take it off the internet?
Speaker 1: Not seven years, twenty four hours? Oh, y'all are so
Speaker 1: y'all are so helpful, twelve twelve by the time one
Speaker 1: of and some of them are just so openly offensive,
Speaker 1: like the one the number one was my Baby Daddy
Speaker 1: Ain't Ship because that's how they think black people took online.
Speaker 1: So they thought that that was a real article, that
Speaker 1: was a real group when it made it wasn't And
Speaker 1: that came down in twelve hours as long as the
Speaker 1: person reporting it wasn't black. And that has been a
Speaker 1: common theme in so many things that I've found for
Speaker 1: multiply marginalized people, but specifically for how black women are
Speaker 1: interacted with them line now, usually for things like this,
Speaker 1: we are asked when we had these discussions the issue
Speaker 1: and part of what I wrote the article for and
Speaker 1: hearing about your podcast is I really like being black?
Speaker 1: I like being what and it's not in and I
Speaker 1: like doing tech work and I like analyzing things, and
Speaker 1: I don't feel that I should have to answer everything
Speaker 1: through a lens of how do I make it diverse
Speaker 1: and inclusive or how do we answer our problems with
Speaker 1: the lack of representation, because it's not an our problem,
Speaker 1: that's a you problem. I am this person everywhere I go. Also,
Speaker 1: when I'm thinking about tech issues, and why I wrote
Speaker 1: that article was I like to think about tech issues.
Speaker 1: I like to think about things like q A. I
Speaker 1: like to think about things about I like to think
Speaker 1: about So what does the gith hub repo is? Why
Speaker 1: does get hub design like that? My primary thing right
Speaker 1: now is community and calms. So if you've actually worked
Speaker 1: in product design, you know if you do anything that
Speaker 1: involves community, comms copy everybody's working in get hub, you
Speaker 1: are usually reporting tickets. But we don't talk about those things,
Speaker 1: and we often don't ask people who do work to
Speaker 1: talk about things. There is a separation between the social
Speaker 1: and the technical and the problem. And the thing that
Speaker 1: I want constantly trying to push is that those divisions
Speaker 1: are built into the Internet. So the first even the
Speaker 1: start of the World Wide Web, Unfinished Live is about
Speaker 1: decentralized protocols, and you will look at these things and
Speaker 1: you'll see that the original meetings with tim Berners, Lee
Speaker 1: and all of these people were divided like this is
Speaker 1: a technical protocol, this is a social protocol. That's a
Speaker 1: big problem. And that is a huge problem that we
Speaker 1: have carried through the web since its inception of separating
Speaker 1: those things, except they influence each other. If you don't
Speaker 1: have social represent asation, you don't design well. If you
Speaker 1: don't have a good analysis of technical work, you don't
Speaker 1: make good choices for what happens in social And it's
Speaker 1: an artificial separation, and it's also socially influenced by where
Speaker 1: people think you are. Because the other part about the
Speaker 1: thing of like let's listen to black women is that
Speaker 1: when I get pulled into things or sometimes where things
Speaker 1: like people want you to be Oh, we want to
Speaker 1: we want to hear what you have to say, can
Speaker 1: you can you talk about that? And they really want
Speaker 1: me to sing the ballad of how terrible it is
Speaker 1: to be black and why they should be nice to me?
Speaker 1: And when you want to sing the song of joy
Speaker 1: of I love being black, but your your product design
Speaker 1: is bad and the fact that me being black means
Speaker 1: your product doesn't work? Is you problem? I need you
Speaker 1: to get better on that. COOBU. They suddenly don't want
Speaker 1: to have the conversation. People love to have diversity conversations,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, okay, public, please do me a favor
Speaker 1: of someone who works in products, who looks at these tickets.
Speaker 1: Publish all your diversity numbers. Don't tell me you're gonna
Speaker 1: do better. I want to see all of those numbers
Speaker 1: in an easily accessible place that I can pull up
Speaker 1: everything time. My backgrounds are libraries, so don't don't. You
Speaker 1: don't have to tell me anything you don't I don't
Speaker 1: need to part and part of the joy of being
Speaker 1: black is I don't have to be the singular black person.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a spokesperson. I like librarians.
Speaker 1: I like library stuff, like thinking and reading. I like
Speaker 1: creating and coding and all of that. I don't need
Speaker 1: to be the singular black person. There are people who
Speaker 1: are often much better served than this. But I want
Speaker 1: my work to be done well. I wanted to be
Speaker 1: well compensated for the things I do. I want you
Speaker 1: to credit me, and I want you to credit mine,
Speaker 1: and I want you to have good practices. I happen
Speaker 1: to be black while asking for these things, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't make it a social justice request. It makes it
Speaker 1: a request for good systems. And the problem with these
Speaker 1: things is that people will treat this like, oh, you
Speaker 1: want to do diversity because you're talking about how the
Speaker 1: link the neural linguistic program pro programming penalizes black people
Speaker 1: more than it penalizes people who pretend to be black.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about diversitly. I'm like, I'm talking about
Speaker 1: your your your machine learning set doesn't work, and then
Speaker 1: when it stops, and then when it hits somebody actually
Speaker 1: care about, It's like, what is our problem with AI?
Speaker 1: There might be a math problem. So it's not a
Speaker 1: math problem when it's penalizing me or picking me out
Speaker 1: or penalizing black people, but it's a math problem when
Speaker 1: it stops white people. Are we using two different kinds
Speaker 1: of math? Which if we are, it's fine, but let's
Speaker 1: lean into that reality and the danger becomes it's like,
Speaker 1: you will listen to me, Bemoan. Being black, you will
Speaker 1: not list You will not listen to me and have
Speaker 1: effectual steps for us to do this work better and
Speaker 1: that is an issue that keeps coming up, and we're
Speaker 1: going to see more of it with the idea of
Speaker 1: the now content creator economy, where everybody's response when a
Speaker 1: black person has a problem, it's like, are you a
Speaker 1: content creator because we really want to boost your profile.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to boost my profile. I want
Speaker 1: you to fix this. I don't need I like making podcasts.
Speaker 1: I love your podcast, but I don't need to make
Speaker 1: a podcast to get you to fix the AI that
Speaker 1: would make both of us guerrillas. And I especially don't
Speaker 1: need to make a podcast for this three or four
Speaker 1: times every single gut damn year when somebody pointed out
Speaker 1: in and you can't provide me a change log for
Speaker 1: what actual interventions and reports and white papers you published
Speaker 1: and synthesize to make it stop happening. I don't need
Speaker 1: a podcast, I need a paper trail. But they don't
Speaker 1: believe that we should have those things or it's right
Speaker 1: for us to ask for those things, And that I
Speaker 1: think is what is really especially as we are and
Speaker 1: then times it's really is getting stressful because we are
Speaker 1: asking for changes and responses to these herculeans. One sin
Speaker 1: a lifetime, one sin of millennia occurrences. But the thing
Speaker 1: about change and innovation is that you don't just innovate
Speaker 1: a product. You don't just change the technical things. You've
Speaker 1: got to change society. And what is very I think
Speaker 1: it's most uncomfortable for a lot of the people who
Speaker 1: don't want to listen or things like that, and sometimes
Speaker 1: even for me, is that I have to change myself.
Speaker 1: So I when you tell me how do we deal
Speaker 1: with diversity? First of all, who But the second question
Speaker 1: is why why are we talking about diversity? Why are
Speaker 1: we talking about it being a fundamental part of what's
Speaker 1: not functioning? Well? Why aren't we talking about it be
Speaker 1: a fundamental part of the reason we're here. I do
Speaker 1: not like models that constantly asked me to be supplicant
Speaker 1: to deal with racism when you've already set it up
Speaker 1: in such a racist way that I'm constantly requesting things.
Speaker 1: And there are times when I feel you have more
Speaker 1: of a problem with the fact that when I tell
Speaker 1: you no or this is wrong and it sticks and
Speaker 1: you can't shut us down or you have us out
Speaker 1: that we're at that place in some ways, then you
Speaker 1: have a problem with the fact that the thing don't
Speaker 1: work let's take a quick break at our back. You
Speaker 1: said earlier how we are often having to to scream
Speaker 1: at the top of our lungs for someone to hear
Speaker 1: us to fix things right, and that everybody wants to say, oh,
Speaker 1: listen to black women, amplify black women, We support black
Speaker 1: women until we're pointing out these problems that cause us harm.
Speaker 1: And if we're not singing this sad song about how
Speaker 1: hard it is and we're actually saying no, your product,
Speaker 1: your platform is creating this harm. Um you shouted out.
Speaker 1: One of my kind of tech hero Sharene mitchell I.
Speaker 1: Don't want to put you on the spot, but founder
Speaker 1: of Stop Online Valance against Women, who really did a
Speaker 1: lot of the reporting early on about the way that
Speaker 1: black women experience harm online. So one of my questions
Speaker 1: for you is, like, what if you're someone who just
Speaker 1: wants to use social media to talk about real housewives
Speaker 1: or do your job, and you didn't really sign up
Speaker 1: to be this unpaid sort of person who is always
Speaker 1: flagging these issues to make these products function the way
Speaker 1: they should, Like, what like, how do we exist online
Speaker 1: if we want to not have this extra unpaid burden
Speaker 1: that we really shouldn't have. Just to show up. Well,
Speaker 1: for me, it's not a one if I got started
Speaker 1: online because I'm a sci fi geek, like but that's
Speaker 1: where a lot of these problems happen. Fandom nerd them. Recently,
Speaker 1: Twitch had was having hate raids where they basically, we're
Speaker 1: flooding the thing, flooding people's Uh. They were flooding people
Speaker 1: streams because of this, and the response is there is
Speaker 1: as there for me, there's a two pronged response. The
Speaker 1: response that I would give you, as someone who cares
Speaker 1: about your mental energy and your face, is like, curate
Speaker 1: your fee list, do this, do that, etcetera. You have
Speaker 1: to kind of approach it because that's the only way
Speaker 1: you will be able to operate cleanly online. The other
Speaker 1: part about it is in the way that I feel,
Speaker 1: as a person who makes these things, someone who looks
Speaker 1: at the features and such, that it's that it's not
Speaker 1: your response stability. This is no longer a question to me.
Speaker 1: And that might be a responsively annoyed and tide of
Speaker 1: the pandemic and how we haven't addressed racism and sexism
Speaker 1: and everything to the point we are now worried about
Speaker 1: going outside because of what's happening. It is the point.
Speaker 1: It is the It is the need and the necessity
Speaker 1: of the people to fix it. I I don't I
Speaker 1: don't want to have another unpaid conversation. Can you do
Speaker 1: freak q A research? Can you do free design research
Speaker 1: and free you user interviews? Because you don't believe me
Speaker 1: when I say I have a different experience. So I've
Speaker 1: got to cut and paste and do a whole report.
Speaker 1: But you're paying somebody within your organization who's usually not
Speaker 1: black and doesn't use the platform six figures to do it.
Speaker 1: At this point, get that person to do their job,
Speaker 1: or respect the or design it so that I can
Speaker 1: report for free. Because the other side of this is
Speaker 1: as someone who looks at community, as someone who looks
Speaker 1: at use your feedback. Most of the time, when we
Speaker 1: are experiencing things like that, we want to tell someone
Speaker 1: because we wanted to stop. So we'll intrinsically go hey,
Speaker 1: And some of it is cars telling a home model,
Speaker 1: but we'll turn to somebody and be like, Hi, I'm
Speaker 1: experiencing these things. I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: is most enraging to me about the content creator distinction
Speaker 1: specifically is watching TikTok users and watching TikTok creators. There is, yes,
Speaker 1: the power black storytelling, the power black art and culture.
Speaker 1: But if you are a young person of color, but
Speaker 1: specifically black, I am in all of you. You are
Speaker 1: learning high level video editing and algorithmic justice and machine learning,
Speaker 1: and you are putting it into a medium on the
Speaker 1: medium that is that is marginalizing you, and you are
Speaker 1: quick and good about it. Because how quickly does TikTok
Speaker 1: respond when somebody publishes and goes, hey, you're surfacing unnatural material,
Speaker 1: which means these and I say, young kids to me,
Speaker 1: I'm right now, anybody under twenty five. I don't mean,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to infantilize, but anyone who's under two five.
Speaker 1: So these are people who, if they had gone to
Speaker 1: school for this, would not be finished with the pH d.
Speaker 1: But they are already quick and recognizing these patterns, recognizing
Speaker 1: the tech, reporting it. They are doing that work already,
Speaker 1: and they're working as scientists, they're working as observers, they're
Speaker 1: working as researchers, they're working as organizers making no, not
Speaker 1: making dances. And we're saying to them, all you're doing
Speaker 1: is content creation being But the honest truth is they
Speaker 1: have to run a small think tank for every single
Speaker 1: account to respond to to curate because we have done
Speaker 1: so poorly in actually building the product and building the
Speaker 1: processes for harm reduction and harm read mitigation, or just
Speaker 1: moderating our content. That's that I I one of the
Speaker 1: things that I'm starting to find with the frame and
Speaker 1: it's often confrontational. I'll be confrontation a little bit. Is
Speaker 1: I'm no longer accepting the framing of So let's hear
Speaker 1: more about my problem. Okay, where we are, We're gonna
Speaker 1: start there. Tell me how you got to two thousand
Speaker 1: and twenty one and didn't know this was a problem.
Speaker 1: Tell me how you got to two thousand and twenty
Speaker 1: one and you didn't know that marginalized people have a
Speaker 1: hard time online. Tell me how you are in a
Speaker 1: sink tank, in a nonprofit, in a job when you
Speaker 1: didn't If you don't know this, when I can pull
Speaker 1: reports now from Harvard, Oxford, Yale, at one point, Clemson University,
Speaker 1: Amnesty International, myself. All of this is open publication. These
Speaker 1: are the publications you mix. So why are you talking
Speaker 1: to me like I don't know what's going on? And
Speaker 1: number two, don't tell me about my tone. If the fact,
Speaker 1: then I'm angry. We've seen what these people do unchecked.
Speaker 1: I have been getting death threats since I was twenty two.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let people don't a secret. I'm thirty seven.
Speaker 1: I've been getting death threats for fifteen smooth straight years.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not here to babysit you. I'm not
Speaker 1: here to make you feel good about the dereliction of
Speaker 1: your duty. I'm here to fix this problem, and if
Speaker 1: I can't fix it for me, I'm here to fix
Speaker 1: it for the people behind me. Now, we can do
Speaker 1: that with some social things, but we also can do
Speaker 1: that by you just doing your job. Don't automatically turn
Speaker 1: on contents. Don't use an AI that recognizes me as
Speaker 1: a gorilla. Don't do it. We don't have to have
Speaker 1: a discussion. You don't have to hear my thoughts. I'm
Speaker 1: not a small child. Just fix it. Start making products
Speaker 1: that help people tell you what they need, and then
Speaker 1: when they tell you them, don't try and finance it
Speaker 1: so you do something different because you're not comfortable you've
Speaker 1: been told what is needed. Either do it or be
Speaker 1: honest about the fact of why you're not doing it
Speaker 1: and also allows and start allowing us to have those
Speaker 1: discussions where we just get to do our job, coders
Speaker 1: and creators and thinkers and writers, and we want to
Speaker 1: go in and write a good bit of code. We
Speaker 1: want to write some good copy. We want to build
Speaker 1: these communities, make it so I can do that. I
Speaker 1: My part of my job to district shouldn't be how
Speaker 1: do I help you solve racism? No, We're gonna do
Speaker 1: it together Grey, But I would just really like to
Speaker 1: build the code that I'm building. I'm working on a
Speaker 1: product now m with Mozilla Rally, so we are specifically
Speaker 1: trying to build ways of tracking data tracking everything from
Speaker 1: doom scrolling so how which was coined by a woman
Speaker 1: of color, Karen Huff about how you are online to
Speaker 1: how ads are targeted to you without having to go
Speaker 1: through platforms. It's built through web extension. So and it's
Speaker 1: great because right after that was it Facebook shut that
Speaker 1: Facebook observer. We found out that all the data everybody
Speaker 1: was getting wasn't true. And that is it takes everything
Speaker 1: in me not to start with so I told you so,
Speaker 1: and everything in me is not good enough. So I
Speaker 1: told you so that there is there are so many
Speaker 1: people who told these people this. One of the jokes
Speaker 1: I have is that there are people who have formed
Speaker 1: a coalition of oh my god, don't do that when
Speaker 1: it comes to social media who don't agree on anything else.
Speaker 1: I don't agree on anything else, but you've found it
Speaker 1: from sex workers x X, religious conservatives, abortion rights activists,
Speaker 1: black women, tech people, all of us have come together
Speaker 1: and be like, I need you to think about this.
Speaker 1: Why would you trust Facebook? Why would you organize anything
Speaker 1: to make you trust Facebook as a tactical decision, not
Speaker 1: as a whatever decision. And that comes not from our
Speaker 1: notice because we're not on the inside. We've been the
Speaker 1: people these attacks. I don't mean, I need to know
Speaker 1: why you don't trust them, and I need you to
Speaker 1: build in better arts. And if there's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you don't understand how we work in Silicon Valley. We're friends,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Now you get this that most of
Speaker 1: this data is not good. How many people's PhDs just
Speaker 1: got screwed because that data isn'tviable. But nobody wanted to
Speaker 1: even think in terms of teaching, Let's be prepared for
Speaker 1: the if we're hostile, You and I and other marginalized
Speaker 1: people have no other option but to think what happens
Speaker 1: if this goes left? And that is a reality in
Speaker 1: the world, and they have been watching it for years,
Speaker 1: so why aren't they prepared? And it's and if you
Speaker 1: if you feel uncomfortable about giving me an answer that
Speaker 1: feels like a thing you need to work out, right
Speaker 1: when you have a jail break or something like that,
Speaker 1: you fix that immediately. What is it about our issues?
Speaker 1: What is it about the issues of people represented that
Speaker 1: you can take so long? And I think the point
Speaker 1: that we really need to move from now if we
Speaker 1: want to get better, is that we're not going to
Speaker 1: get past this until we do that. Why are certain
Speaker 1: people's issues, Why are certain responses always secondary? That's not
Speaker 1: We keep dancing around this, and we're gonna keep up
Speaker 1: coming up with funny terms we're more concerned with. But
Speaker 1: we're not getting past that. Unto will we answer it?
Speaker 1: And it's super uncomfortable And I am a human, so
Speaker 1: I understand why you don't want to. But we're now
Speaker 1: in a pandemic that is going into its second, possibly
Speaker 1: third year because we don't have we can't understand basic
Speaker 1: kind of empathetics social reactions. There was a run up
Speaker 1: on the capital of racists who were trying to kill people.
Speaker 1: You don't hang a noose on the front of the
Speaker 1: capital justice symbolical jester in the United States of America.
Speaker 1: Do not tell that black lie to my black face.
Speaker 1: I know what my people have been through. You put
Speaker 1: a noose on a you put a new somewhere. You're
Speaker 1: trying to hang some people. They did that on the Capitol.
Speaker 1: They still haven't had a real full hearing. We've had
Speaker 1: all of this happened, and we're still just listening. Why
Speaker 1: aren't we acting? And until we get to this point,
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep having spurs up and flirts up and
Speaker 1: goes up and goes down until we answer that question
Speaker 1: of why aren't we moving more. After a quick break,
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I feel so frustrated about, as someone who has
Speaker 1: worked in the disinformation and online extremism space for a while,
Speaker 1: is this idea that we had to combat for so
Speaker 1: long that it's just jokes and people will make these
Speaker 1: comments online it's not serious. It didn't take a rocket
Speaker 1: scientist to see that online commentary doesn't just stay online
Speaker 1: and that what we saw on January six is directly related.
Speaker 1: But talk about like lying to my face. How often
Speaker 1: I would be in meetings with tech leadership and they
Speaker 1: would say, oh, well, it's about speech. You know, this
Speaker 1: is not about like we're not trying to you know,
Speaker 1: this is not going to be related to like in
Speaker 1: real life actions. We know things that start online don't
Speaker 1: stay online, and so what we I mean, I live
Speaker 1: in d C. What I saw in my own backyard
Speaker 1: in January six, I saw it as a direct reaction
Speaker 1: to the inaction that you just described to all of
Speaker 1: these different little cutesy names for what we can all
Speaker 1: plainly see. It's like extremism, house, boxy, woman, get get spicy.
Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that spaces and confederations
Speaker 1: that are wider than the racists and the Proud Boys
Speaker 1: are well versed in protecting me. If you do a
Speaker 1: misinformation panel and everybody's white, I've stopped listening at this point.
Speaker 1: If you can't grab somebody to be hey, let's talk,
Speaker 1: just stand there and talk. That's a baxt level of
Speaker 1: work that you're not willing to do that. I now
Speaker 1: know that I can't trust anything else. I'll really, I'll
Speaker 1: really come up because there is you've had time. And
Speaker 1: the reason it's a joking is because it's a to them.
Speaker 1: It is jokes in speech to them. And I'm actually
Speaker 1: before this, I worked with the Choral Project, So I
Speaker 1: was the community research leads for the Choral Project and
Speaker 1: that it was about comment moderation. So we worked on
Speaker 1: building things to moderate comments. And there are times depending
Speaker 1: and like there's a whole type of things like you
Speaker 1: have to set what you'll except, etcetera, etcetera. There are
Speaker 1: times where I would moderate something or look at something
Speaker 1: and this is something that I would punch someone in
Speaker 1: the faith for if they were standing right in front
Speaker 1: of me. But as a content moderate moderator, based on
Speaker 1: what we had defined our parameters were, I had to
Speaker 1: let it go. I might not like it, but I
Speaker 1: would let let it go. The thing that is very
Speaker 1: that is often grounded in a lot of these decisions
Speaker 1: is that often we are not asking them to do
Speaker 1: anything they have not set out in their own rules
Speaker 1: or bylines or anything like that. We are asking them
Speaker 1: to merely infor worced them for marginalized people the way
Speaker 1: they bled they enforced them for people who might matter.
Speaker 1: That's literally the only thing I'm asking you to do.
Speaker 1: I actually had an experience with Twitter last year. I
Speaker 1: think it was last year. Time means nothing right now,
Speaker 1: but there is a congress person where um who said
Speaker 1: something so violently anti Asian and sinophobic. I don't want
Speaker 1: to repeat it, but it was congresswoman that a little
Speaker 1: that speech warning, I just went, you racist, raggedy bitch.
Speaker 1: This is not something my mom's gonna be proud of.
Speaker 1: That's not necessarily I'm necessarily proud of at that moment,
Speaker 1: because it was just such a gut reaction of what
Speaker 1: and there was and I knew I was in good
Speaker 1: company because that was not I wasn't the only person
Speaker 1: who said that. It was me. It was a reporter
Speaker 1: from I think the South Chida Poe was it was
Speaker 1: I think there was a white mom in Texas who
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, you were racist, Stitch. I
Speaker 1: was the only person who was blocked. I'm a verified
Speaker 1: account for whatever that means, but I was blocked. They
Speaker 1: were a whole bunch of things, and there was no
Speaker 1: way for me to appeal that. I actually had to
Speaker 1: contact someone separately, and that for for moderation. As a
Speaker 1: person who has moderation experience. That's a really bad model
Speaker 1: if you're worried about things like that, and especially for
Speaker 1: targeted congresswoman, you actually should be more concerned about that
Speaker 1: language because she's a congresswoman. So I actually was not
Speaker 1: against the fact that I was blocked, because you actually
Speaker 1: have to worry about that because again, the one of
Speaker 1: the most targeted people online for racism and has been
Speaker 1: for about ten years is Diane Abbott, the MP in London.
Speaker 1: The most targeted person in the anglophil in world is
Speaker 1: a black woman, black MP for labor in London. That's
Speaker 1: almost never mentioned. She's targeted more than anyone you could
Speaker 1: think of. I think at a certain point she was
Speaker 1: targeted more than Michelle Obama, but we don't talk about
Speaker 1: that because of her specific status. But when the problem came,
Speaker 1: the hammer came down on me. The hammer did not
Speaker 1: come down on other folks. And there is no way
Speaker 1: to aggregate these these decisions. And I had a another
Speaker 1: friend who had become friendly with who experienced a similar
Speaker 1: a similar thing, and had someone say, well, we're not
Speaker 1: sure that happens to black women, and you're lying or
Speaker 1: you're bad at your job, But also how much do
Speaker 1: you want us to do? How do you get us
Speaker 1: through if you're going to gaslight us at every turn,
Speaker 1: if it always is something you kicked down the road
Speaker 1: will get to what we'll get to it. And what
Speaker 1: we're getting to is that black women are leaving these platforms.
Speaker 1: Didn't Twitter. Twitter just had to pay eight hundred million
Speaker 1: dollars to somebody, I think its own board because engagement
Speaker 1: numbers were fludged, And I have a slightly more than
Speaker 1: hunch that some of that has to do with how
Speaker 1: badly they've moderated these racists and bots accounts versus the
Speaker 1: actual content those people create. And you've gotta be you've
Speaker 1: got to be willing to get better at the work.
Speaker 1: And what I think is often the issue for some
Speaker 1: things is that some people do not want to change.
Speaker 1: They don't want to change. It is not to them.
Speaker 1: Even with the Nazis in the streets, the fascist running
Speaker 1: up and down, the planet on fire and a's still
Speaker 1: in the middle of a pandemic, it's not serious enough
Speaker 1: for them yet to change the way they do things.
Speaker 1: And that is a hard thing to say, and it's
Speaker 1: a hard thing to hear. But until there's an actual change,
Speaker 1: I don't know that we can say anything different. And
Speaker 1: for someone who if I was going back to the
Speaker 1: loop de loop, I started with, but if I am
Speaker 1: going to be a talk to a black woman I
Speaker 1: care about online, the first thing I would tell you
Speaker 1: is they have yet to make steps that are clear
Speaker 1: for your protection. That's them problem, that's not you problem.
Speaker 1: But I want to make sure that you are aware
Speaker 1: of that. And that would be the thing, because my
Speaker 1: first concern is going to be how you are doing,
Speaker 1: not how the tech is doing in terms of like
Speaker 1: what do I see before? One of the things I
Speaker 1: really like about my job right now and the project
Speaker 1: we're doing with Mozilla rally is it's starting to address
Speaker 1: what I think is always the fundamental problem with these
Speaker 1: things is how do you start getting information that people
Speaker 1: can independently uh corroborate. How do you start getting that
Speaker 1: kind of raw data that these platforms have been siloing
Speaker 1: and keeping to themselves. How do you get people who
Speaker 1: honestly want to have a good experience and will then
Speaker 1: tell you that to be able to get some real contexts?
Speaker 1: So when you tell me when you because some of
Speaker 1: these studies we're working with we're working with Princeton, We're
Speaker 1: working with Stanford, and we are going to be working
Speaker 1: with the Markup and I'm very excited about that because
Speaker 1: they do great work. But couple the data with talking
Speaker 1: to people and asking, hey, how did you feel what
Speaker 1: was going on when you saw this? And it's going
Speaker 1: to be done with respect, It's going to be done
Speaker 1: with transparency, and it's going to be done in ways
Speaker 1: that are not directly under the people who have taken
Speaker 1: so long to do right by you and still fail.
Speaker 1: And I think that is what I am hoping more
Speaker 1: works through, is that that we stopped making the idea
Speaker 1: of people and things secondary at work, and we start
Speaker 1: moving into the no. It is important to us that
Speaker 1: we think about how people experience things. You know, I
Speaker 1: love all of this. I one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: I'm so interested in these conversations about how these online
Speaker 1: spaces are moderated is because, you know, you talk about
Speaker 1: women who are essentially pushed out of these spaces because
Speaker 1: of this kind of harassment that just you don't see
Speaker 1: it ever ending. And I was one of those women.
Speaker 1: There was time in my life where I was a
Speaker 1: very very avid redditor. I would like wake up, and
Speaker 1: I was unpaid moderating all of these different spaces, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was a big part of who I was.
Speaker 1: It was a big part of like what made me me.
Speaker 1: And if you've ever been on Reddit, you know sometimes
Speaker 1: it's a place where you are going to be harassed.
Speaker 1: Not just the black Ladies Subpreddit was one of the
Speaker 1: most targeted reddits online up until like two thousand eighteen exactly.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't remember thinking so when it
Speaker 1: was harassment. That wasn't just like they're saying I mean
Speaker 1: things to me. It was like, I know where you live,
Speaker 1: and it sounds like this person maybe doesn't know where
Speaker 1: I live. I remember thinking, like, I've given so much
Speaker 1: of my time and my energy and myself to this platform.
Speaker 1: Certainly someone is going to hear me. Certainly when I
Speaker 1: speak up, I will be listened to. I will be heard.
Speaker 1: And when I realized that there was no one to
Speaker 1: hear what I had to say, there was nowhere to
Speaker 1: turn to, I realized it just wasn't worth it, and
Speaker 1: so I checked out. I just I just logged off.
Speaker 1: And so I think back to like how much that
Speaker 1: how much those communities meant to me, How much those
Speaker 1: spaces meant to me, and I just let them go
Speaker 1: because every time I raised what I was experiencing that
Speaker 1: some of this stuff was really scary, no one listened.
Speaker 1: It was like I was shouting and to avoid. And
Speaker 1: so I always think about all the women what it
Speaker 1: feels like to go through this, what it feels like
Speaker 1: to be on the other side of it, and what
Speaker 1: it feels like to finally be like enough, this enough.
Speaker 1: So I'm so happy that you talk about the actual
Speaker 1: emotional experience of going through it, not just like as
Speaker 1: a user, but as a person who experiences things. So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you something that I want to tell everybody,
Speaker 1: and this is something that I have not learned, but
Speaker 1: there would be helps. It is not your responsibility to
Speaker 1: set yourself on fire so other people have warmth and heat.
Speaker 1: You didn't just let it go, and don't like that
Speaker 1: you were exposed to a level of abused, non response
Speaker 1: and trauma because the things we are called and said
Speaker 1: to us online are traumatic that ended up not being
Speaker 1: worth the effort you put in. There is I don't
Speaker 1: know why there there becomes like they feel like there's
Speaker 1: often a belief that hard work must be terrorizing that
Speaker 1: do not like because sometimes hard work starts. You just
Speaker 1: gotta do the thing. You gotta do the rep, you
Speaker 1: gotta do the you gotta do the project. But you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to be hazed to talk about your hair.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to be hazed to talk about yourself
Speaker 1: in a movie. And if you are, and it's against
Speaker 1: their guidelines, there's someone's job for this to be done.
Speaker 1: And it's also that the things to talk about moderation
Speaker 1: is that even when moderation is done, most constant moderation
Speaker 1: farms are formed off to usually women in the Philippines.
Speaker 1: So we are hurting women of color coming and going
Speaker 1: because not only are they reading our trauma, they're also
Speaker 1: seeing the things we never see, which are assault videos
Speaker 1: and um sorry, Chmale wrote about this, I think for
Speaker 1: Vergin again five years ago, but we're getting all of
Speaker 1: that and it's just like tapping out for what doesn't
Speaker 1: serve you is a completely a normal human response, and
Speaker 1: you're a human. And I remember specifically around Reddit because
Speaker 1: like a gat sometimes spicy, but Alexis Ohani is like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand what's this house is happening? Why are
Speaker 1: people getting like this online. Sir, you were the president
Speaker 1: and CEO of Reddit. Sir, I'm gonna need you to
Speaker 1: give me more than a tweet. I'm going to need
Speaker 1: to give you more me more than a wonderfully edit
Speaker 1: podcast with the Rising Music. If you really want to
Speaker 1: know how we got here, you're going to sit there.
Speaker 1: You're going to sit down with some people and they're
Speaker 1: not going to just be content creators. They're going to
Speaker 1: be black designers. They're going to be black PhDs. They're
Speaker 1: going to be black users, and they're going to be
Speaker 1: queer users, and they're gonna be Asian users, and they're
Speaker 1: gonna be Latin name users. And we're going to sit
Speaker 1: down and actually go back, and we're going to make
Speaker 1: some hard lines in the sand, and if we're not
Speaker 1: going to back it up, what you're actually telling me
Speaker 1: is you don't want to do this. And honestly, my
Speaker 1: shocking opinion, it is fine that you don't want to
Speaker 1: do this, But every moment you play in my face,
Speaker 1: every moment you make a big decoration, every moment you
Speaker 1: don't follow through, every moment we really want to meet
Speaker 1: with you and dodge that call or you say that
Speaker 1: you're doing a fellowship and it's thirty dollars less than
Speaker 1: you pay the lowest paid person and who gets a job.
Speaker 1: Every single time you do that, you sap energy from people.
Speaker 1: You sap energy from movements, you sap people's and you
Speaker 1: sap the energy for people to have good communities online.
Speaker 1: And you don't have to do it to me personal,
Speaker 1: even though it's been done to me personal for it
Speaker 1: to matter to me, And if you don't want to change,
Speaker 1: that's fine. But do not be surprised when you're connection
Speaker 1: numbers go down. Don't be surprised when people find new
Speaker 1: ways to do this, and don't be shocked when as
Speaker 1: people who are against you. The thing that I cannot
Speaker 1: buy buy is for all of these people who are
Speaker 1: listening and pretending and caring but do not actually do
Speaker 1: the work. At the end of the day, your user.
Speaker 1: Those people want to have you to have a good
Speaker 1: experience because they want to have a safe place to be.
Speaker 1: The people who are the racist, the nazis, all of them.
Speaker 1: They fundamentally don't want your platform to work. They don't
Speaker 1: want your product to work, They don't want people to
Speaker 1: be able to use it. They want you to fail.
Speaker 1: Why are you focus on the people who want you
Speaker 1: to fail more than you are focused on the people
Speaker 1: who want you to win. And what social cues and
Speaker 1: what social biases do you have that make this something
Speaker 1: that you keep doing? Are you if you're and again,
Speaker 1: we're not going to get past if you don't answer
Speaker 1: that question. So I have a final question for you.
Speaker 1: This is the question I usually end every interview with.
Speaker 1: So we said all of this all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: are you hopeful about the state of the internet and
Speaker 1: technology when you look at where we are? Are you
Speaker 1: hopeful for what's on the horizon? Do you think it's
Speaker 1: better than where we are now or worse? I think
Speaker 1: it's different, and I am I'm built to be hopeful. No,
Speaker 1: my my mother, my mother used to sometimes says about me,
Speaker 1: and I'm very very brilliant. I not sometimes very smart.
Speaker 1: I've got more hope than sense. But I am hopeful
Speaker 1: about technology because I'm hopeful of about people. That's part
Speaker 1: of the reason why I'm drawn to the work I do.
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful about people. Again, I say the analysis and
Speaker 1: the things I see the young folks on TikTok to you,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't imagine I'm being hopeful when
Speaker 1: you see someone reviving an ancient indigenous practice of throat
Speaker 1: singing with their mother. How can you not be hopeful
Speaker 1: when you see young queer kids be able to get help?
Speaker 1: How how can you not be How can you not
Speaker 1: be hopeful when someone teaches you how to magically get
Speaker 1: curry stains out of a type of ware part. I'm Guyanese.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm a hat, but I'm Guyanese. And you know
Speaker 1: that that that's a mystical, magical thing. And you see
Speaker 1: that someone can do that, you are I'm inexplicably hopeful
Speaker 1: that you can see that in the streets. But I
Speaker 1: also think that hope is not enough. I don't think
Speaker 1: that there's I'm not excited by far away things. I'm
Speaker 1: excited by the work that's being on and so many
Speaker 1: people are showing up to do that work. But I
Speaker 1: am also very very frightened because since that is common
Speaker 1: with something that was given to me. Is how much
Speaker 1: longer people will have the energy and the resources to
Speaker 1: do that work is what scares me. And how committed
Speaker 1: people are to actually redistributing, redistributing or revolutionizing so that
Speaker 1: they can do the work, That's what scares me. But
Speaker 1: what it comes down to, do I feel hope at all?
Speaker 1: Of course, I get up and I got if. I
Speaker 1: get up and I have something to do, and somebody
Speaker 1: is saying that they are thinking about a thing, or
Speaker 1: they've noticed a thing, and they still committed to making
Speaker 1: a piece of art or making a piece of media,
Speaker 1: or even a tweet that says this is important to me.
Speaker 1: And I want the world to be slightly better. God,
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful every day so that, Harry, we
Speaker 1: are just about out of time. I have to thank
Speaker 1: each and every one of you for being here. You
Speaker 1: have no idea how much this means to me. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for leaning into this conversation. Thank you
Speaker 1: again to Debt for being here. If you want to
Speaker 1: hear more conversations like this, please tune into my podcast.
Speaker 1: There are no girls on the internet. We would love
Speaker 1: to have you. Um yes, thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 1: Thank you so you're so good. Got a story about
Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi.
Speaker 1: You can have me us at hello at tangdi dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi
Speaker 1: dot com. There are no Girls on the Internet was
Speaker 1: created by me bridget Todd. It's a production of I
Speaker 1: heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Ary Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, check
Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. H m hm