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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Ester. So

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Speaker 1: we recently had Brian Koppleman on the podcast. Brian wrote

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Speaker 1: the TV show Billions, ran for seven seasons. Focuses on

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Speaker 1: the lives of billionaire founders in New York City, guys

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Speaker 1: that work in hedge funds, and one of the best

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Speaker 1: characters on that show is doctor Wendy Rhoades. She is

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Speaker 1: the psychologist that all these billionaires have that help them

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Speaker 1: unlock extreme performance in their lives. While following up on Brian,

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Speaker 1: we decided to bring in a person that the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal says is the real life Wendy Rhodes. We're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking to doctor Julie Gerner. She is

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Speaker 1: one of the most sought out executive performance coaches in

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Speaker 1: the country. She has a two year waiting list. She

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Speaker 1: writes the Ultru's successful sub stack, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the best ones in the game. In the day to

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Speaker 1: day trenches, she is working with CEOs, founders, elite operators,

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Speaker 1: billionaire types and she is helping them unlock extreme performance.

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Speaker 1: She's helping them reach the next level psychologically in business

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Speaker 1: and unlock new performance and just live better day to day.

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Speaker 1: While operating at an extremely high level, and she's going

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Speaker 1: to give all of us tools that she uses on

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Speaker 1: these people that can help us unlock things in our lives.

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Speaker 1: So let's bring doctor Julian right now. Well, Julie, thanks

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Speaker 1: for coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a

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Speaker 2: pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: So I want to start somewhere. Maybe that's slightly unexpected.

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Speaker 1: Before you were compared to Wendy Rhodes from Billions by

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Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal. You did a stint in a

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Speaker 1: prison as a psychologist. Did What did that place teach

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Speaker 1: you about humans that you couldn't have learned anywhere else?

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Speaker 2: I think the primary lesson I learned because I worked

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Speaker 2: at a supermax facility, so it's a level five facility.

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Speaker 2: And what you learn is that a bad ten minutes

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Speaker 2: can ruin your life, you know, like we can. One

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Speaker 2: of the things that you know, I was walking with

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Speaker 2: one of the inmates and they were speaking with me,

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Speaker 2: and you know it over and over again. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not that many times they don't realize the mistakes

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Speaker 2: that they've made, but that sometimes these were mistakes made

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Speaker 2: of impulse, They were of rage or strong emotion. And

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Speaker 2: that that brief window of time changed the trajectory of

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Speaker 2: their entire life. You know, there is nothing you can

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Speaker 2: undo about the crimes that you commit when they are

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Speaker 2: of that kind of caliber. And so that's the takeaway

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Speaker 2: that haunted me, I think is that you know, those

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Speaker 2: moments that you can feel overwhelmed with emotion, you can

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Speaker 2: make some really bad decisions in life. And I feel

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Speaker 2: like that pulls, that thread pulls into almost every aspect

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Speaker 2: of life. Not in that dramatic type of way, but

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Speaker 2: you can say things in the heat of an argument.

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Speaker 2: You can make decisions out of fear or impulse in business,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, that lesson certainly has stuck with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you eventually transitioned to working with founders, executives, very

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Speaker 1: high performing people. How did you move from a super

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Speaker 1: max facility to the people you work with now?

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Speaker 2: Right? I mean, it's a great question. My degree is

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Speaker 2: in adult psychopathology and forensics, so it really required studying

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Speaker 2: personality at a very deep level in understanding how people operate.

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Speaker 2: So that thread, it kind of has become very beneficial.

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Speaker 2: But I went from there to kind of doing more

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Speaker 2: traditional therapy work, to working in education and doing some

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Speaker 2: things in university and college work, and it was there

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Speaker 2: that I was sometimes pinged to help advise on products.

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Speaker 2: And when you're asked to advise on products, you know,

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Speaker 2: whether it's with cognitive load or with email or with

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Speaker 2: other types of things, you know, periodically they just tap people.

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Speaker 2: And at one point, you know, just working in an

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Speaker 2: academic kind of setting, one of the venture firms had said,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have a founder. You're the only psychology

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Speaker 2: person we know. Can you speak with them? They just

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Speaker 2: received a lot of funding and they've they've become kind

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Speaker 2: of paralyzed in their decision making. And you know, these

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Speaker 2: are young people, sometimes in their twenties or thirties, and

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Speaker 2: they're getting millions of dollars and that strikes everyone differently.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people are very fluid with that, and other times

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Speaker 2: they feel like, oh my god, what have I done

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Speaker 2: and what am I responsible for? And so it was

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Speaker 2: really just a few meetings with this individual, and what

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Speaker 2: you realize is that, you know, you can get someone

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Speaker 2: back on track very very quickly, and I could spot

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Speaker 2: the challenge very very quickly. And it was really in

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Speaker 2: that moment that it felt like handing glove, like there

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Speaker 2: are so many ways in which you can use psychology

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Speaker 2: not just to make sick people well, but to make

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Speaker 2: people who are really healthy and functioning who kind of

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Speaker 2: have these little blocks you can see them very quickly,

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Speaker 2: and to make these healthy people more optimal and better

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Speaker 2: at what they do and freer and kind of more effective.

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Speaker 2: And so from then on I just started to say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to think about kind of pivoting into this

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Speaker 2: area of work. And I started to get some referrals.

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Speaker 2: I did some work with clients who got me a

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Speaker 2: very good reputation. And you know the thing about moving

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Speaker 2: up in your career is that if you do a

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Speaker 2: good job when you're not anyone special, you get referred

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Speaker 2: to maybe the level up and then the next level up,

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Speaker 2: and you kind of build a network. And so that's

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Speaker 2: really how I climbed into where I am today.

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Speaker 1: Have you found that anything that you learned while working

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Speaker 1: with prisoners transfers over one to one with the people

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Speaker 1: you're working with today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that you know, you work with people

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Speaker 2: who have very specific and strong personalities, and I think

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Speaker 2: knowing how to sit in a room with people who

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Speaker 2: have very strong personalities and not be swayed by that

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Speaker 2: I think is a really important skill that I learned

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Speaker 2: very young. So, you know, sometimes in inmate situations, people

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Speaker 2: are easily intimidated you meet with people. In my case,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was in my twenties meeting with people

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Speaker 2: who sometimes would meet with me in a glassroom with

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Speaker 2: a guard outside. I would have to sit next to

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Speaker 2: the door. They were in leg irons and you know,

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Speaker 2: had their hands cuffed, and you know, the nature of

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Speaker 2: their crimes can make it pretty intimidating. And I think

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Speaker 2: that sometimes in business, you work with people who have

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Speaker 2: a big reputation they have they can be very intimidating

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Speaker 2: to those around them, and kind of not feeling the

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Speaker 2: same amount of pressure is what makes you valuable. You know,

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Speaker 2: nobody who's going to work with somebody at a top

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Speaker 2: tier they don't want to work with someone who is

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Speaker 2: impressed by them. They don't want to work with somebody

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Speaker 2: who is intimidated by them, because then they're really not

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Speaker 2: going to have somebody who can do the work effectively. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I think that's a skill that really translated, is

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Speaker 2: being able to sit with people who can come across

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Speaker 2: as rather intimidating, be it for very different reasons.

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Speaker 1: So by sitting with people who had these heinous criminal backgrounds,

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Speaker 1: then when you had to go sit with the founder

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Speaker 1: who just received one hundred million dollars in funding.

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Speaker 3: That didn't become as intimidating.

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Speaker 1: They didn't carry the same sort of cachet that they

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Speaker 1: might have with employees or something like that.

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Speaker 2: True. I think that the other thing that we think

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Speaker 2: about is that it doesn't carry that. I think that

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Speaker 2: it whether it's with founders, or it's with investors, or

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Speaker 2: it is with people that I think that the majority

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Speaker 2: of people would say, oh, you know, you should treat

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Speaker 2: them in some deferential way instead of as a regular person.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's been really benefit for that. For sure.

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Speaker 1: Do you find a lot of people that are at

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Speaker 1: the top feel like everyone, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: kisses their ass and that's hard for them.

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Speaker 2: True? I do think that. I think that you know,

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Speaker 2: like and they can spot it very quickly also, and

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Speaker 2: I think that that's a really that's a quick skill

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Speaker 2: that they've developed and learned to have and sometimes to

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Speaker 2: use to their benefit. I think as well, you know,

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Speaker 2: if somebody is going to you know, help you in

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Speaker 2: some way or make things more easier for you that's

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Speaker 2: a skill certainly that you can use or something you

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Speaker 2: can leverage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, among the people you work with, I want to

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Speaker 1: hear what are the traits that you see most commonly?

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Speaker 1: And one that I want to highlight because you wrote

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Speaker 1: an excellent article on your substack about it.

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Speaker 3: You said audacity.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a trade I see in people who reach

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Speaker 1: the top point zero one percent is audacity.

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Speaker 3: What is that and how does it manifest itself to me?

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Speaker 2: Audacity? The audacity that I see in those who are

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Speaker 2: at kind of the top top top of those that

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Speaker 2: I work with is just the kind of the notion

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Speaker 2: that they don't follow the rules that everyone else seems

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Speaker 2: to follow that are actually very artificial. Something I talk

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Speaker 2: a lot about are kind of this notion of imaginary rules,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like most people walk around with kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, there's rules that we learn that are

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Speaker 2: good for us, that are, you know, about manners and

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Speaker 2: navigating the world and not getting arrested in all of

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Speaker 2: those things. But I think that there are rules that

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Speaker 2: we just kind of societally kind of accept, like that

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't just try for a contract with a major

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Speaker 2: bank if you are a small company or that you know,

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Speaker 2: there are certain things that you can't ask for because

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Speaker 2: of your station in life, for certain places you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: go or rooms you shouldn't be in. And what I

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Speaker 2: notice is that there is almost a complete unawareness that

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Speaker 2: they couldn't try for something, or they couldn't figure something out,

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Speaker 2: or that there is a place that they couldn't find

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Speaker 2: a way to get to. And that audacity to kind

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Speaker 2: of go for these larger things, things that no one

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Speaker 2: else would think that they deserve or should be in

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Speaker 2: rooms in, or trying for, is really how they skip

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Speaker 2: steps that everyone else is still kind of walking through.

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Speaker 2: We're all going, you know, it's so crowded in the

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Speaker 2: path that everyone takes, and they just get this really

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Speaker 2: kind of side path that's this little dirt road, and

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Speaker 2: they find a way to get to outcomes that most

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Speaker 2: of us are still kind of trudging through and are

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Speaker 2: probably eight years away from if we get there at all.

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Speaker 2: And I find that just magical. It's just magical because

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Speaker 2: it you know, once you do it, once you prove

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Speaker 2: it to yourself, that you can do it over and

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Speaker 2: over again in various areas of life, and it works.

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Speaker 2: It works a percentage of the time and even if

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Speaker 2: it's a small percentage of the time, it's worth taking

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Speaker 2: that bed.

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Speaker 1: So is it that they almost have a raack of

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Speaker 1: an awareness at first that they have this. They're the

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Speaker 1: type of person who accidentally went down the side path,

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Speaker 1: and then they get there and they go, wait, I

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Speaker 1: realized I took the side path. Hey, next time I

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Speaker 1: actually see a sidepath, I'm going to take that every time,

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Speaker 1: And then that sort of teaches them something.

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Speaker 2: I think that's an accurate description. I think that there

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Speaker 2: are ways in which, you know, they just will do

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Speaker 2: things that other people would not do, and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: always occur to them that they're they're doing it. It

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Speaker 2: seems like, oh, well, why not try for this? You know,

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Speaker 2: what if it you know. One of the things that

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Speaker 2: I wrote about was the disposition of what if it

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Speaker 2: goes right instead of what if it goes wrong. I

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Speaker 2: think that there's a lot of focus on the optimistic

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Speaker 2: side of things rather than always looking at the things

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Speaker 2: that could go wrong. It's ultimately kind of a mental

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Speaker 2: way of kind of a mental framework for seeing the

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Speaker 2: world is that, you know, what if it all goes right.

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Speaker 2: It's an optimistic way of approaching things, and I think

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Speaker 2: if most of us would adopt that so much more

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Speaker 2: that we would do Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's the trying seeing what happens in

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Speaker 1: today's world. You're probably not going to die, and that'll

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Speaker 1: give you some evidence where you go, Okay, well maybe

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Speaker 1: it didn't work out perfectly, but you probably learned something

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Speaker 1: along the path and taking whatever big shot it was,

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Speaker 1: and if it does go perfectly, like bam, you're in

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Speaker 1: a whole new realm.

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Speaker 3: And you can just keep going back to the basket.

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Speaker 2: That's very true. I mean, I think that we overestimate.

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Speaker 2: There's something that we do that really looks at we

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Speaker 2: don't really calculate the appropriate risk. We look kind of

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Speaker 2: the way in which we evaluate situations seems to overestimate

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Speaker 2: the real risk that exists in the choices that we make,

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Speaker 2: instead of really looking at, well, is this actually the risk,

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Speaker 2: Is this actually the thing that would go wrong? Or

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Speaker 2: is it something that we just kind of would make

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Speaker 2: us uncomfortable and we wouldn't want to have happen. There's

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Speaker 2: usually not a lot of risk. I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's wonderful and terrible about social media is

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Speaker 2: that you can see very quickly the fast cycle that

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Speaker 2: even the worst things have. You know, a terrible thing

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Speaker 2: could happen and be incredibly embarrassing and probably next week

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Speaker 2: no one's going to talk about it. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: such a short attention span in the mind of people

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Speaker 2: that even if you do make a mistake, it's probably

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Speaker 2: not going to be big enough that it lasts forever.

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Speaker 1: So when I was a professor at you and LV,

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Speaker 1: the way I used to talk about this, how you

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Speaker 1: see it in major media is I think with the

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Speaker 1: speed of media today, if you take something like the O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson trial, that was all that was Ontelligent Vision for

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Speaker 1: like a year, and I think today that whole thing

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Speaker 1: would maybe be a week or two weeks and then

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Speaker 1: it would just kind of get forget about it.

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Speaker 3: But I can see how that would be.

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Speaker 1: That's a good tool to use in the context of

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Speaker 1: even if someone is criticizing you online, whatever it might be,

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Speaker 1: even the criticism you hear in the office, it's like

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Speaker 1: people are just.

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Speaker 3: Going to move on. They forget.

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Speaker 2: They are Like someone was talking about whether or not

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Speaker 2: we would disclose there were aliens among us, and I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, at this point, I think people would shrug

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Speaker 2: and move on it would be in the news for

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Speaker 2: a few days, but yes, our attention is very brief.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You also have a concept called the repetitive reflex, and

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Speaker 1: it's this idea that high performers aren't great at everything.

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Speaker 1: They're good at a couple things, but they're really relentless.

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Speaker 1: Talk to us about that.

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Speaker 2: I think that one of the things that people assume

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Speaker 2: about high performers, and we see this kind of halo

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Speaker 2: effect where you'll see people who are really excellent at

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Speaker 2: a few things. People assume that they're great at everything.

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Speaker 2: They also assume that they know about everything, you know,

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot of assumptions that we make, but

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Speaker 2: that they are really really good at a few things,

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Speaker 2: and they dig into those things and they don't try

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Speaker 2: to execute on things that they really aren't that great at,

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Speaker 2: and they're very very good at kind of putting the

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Speaker 2: things away from them that they're not that great at.

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Speaker 2: I think a public example of this is Elon Musk

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Speaker 2: fantastic at company building, fantastic at you know, bringing public

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Speaker 2: attention to some of these things. But he has Gwynn Shotwell,

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Speaker 2: who is a phenomenal operator in SpaceX, is notable for

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Speaker 2: being able to do all of the things that he

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Speaker 2: cannot do and he's not very good at doing being

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Speaker 2: able to meet with NASA and you know, iron out

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Speaker 2: certain types of contracts and being really great at managing

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Speaker 2: the day to day on the ground and all of

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Speaker 2: those things, while he's able to set vision and see

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Speaker 2: where the future may go and gather the resources that

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Speaker 2: can take them there, and you know, all of those

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Speaker 2: other things that he tends to be very very good at.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that on a smaller scale, you know,

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Speaker 2: very very good CEOs do the same that they have

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Speaker 2: areas that they're very good at and areas they are

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Speaker 2: not that great at, and they don't judge themselves for that.

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Speaker 2: I think oftentimes when people are in business, they think,

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Speaker 2: I'm the CEO, so that means I have to be

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Speaker 2: great with people, or I'm the CEO, and it means

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Speaker 2: that I have to know X, Y and Z. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes you're the CEO and you're not great with people,

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Speaker 2: and so you hire people who are. And sometimes you're

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Speaker 2: the CEO and you're, you know, really fantastic technically, but

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Speaker 2: maybe you're not the person who's best on some of

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Speaker 2: these other variables. And so I do think that the

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Speaker 2: thing that they do brilliantly over and over again is

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Speaker 2: that they're okay with the strength that they have, and

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Speaker 2: they know that if they lean into them, you really

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Speaker 2: get outlier outcomes if you start, you know, like if

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Speaker 2: you start as above average on something that and you're

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Speaker 2: really gifted even at something, you know, if you put

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Speaker 2: force behind it, the separation between you and everyone else

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Speaker 2: is dramatic. But if you are really above average on

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Speaker 2: something and you're trying to focus all the time on

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Speaker 2: the things that you're below average on, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: you'll be able to bring those things up to average,

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Speaker 2: maybe a little better, but that's not where you're going

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Speaker 2: to gain leverage. That's not how you're going to get

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Speaker 2: escape velocity on the things that you really want to

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Speaker 2: push ahead. And so because they understand that, I think intuitively,

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Speaker 2: they put a lot of force behind the things that

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Speaker 2: they're great at, and they will do that over and

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Speaker 2: over again. And maybe it's you know, M and A deals,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's you know, raising capital, maybe it's some of

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Speaker 2: these other things. And if they're exceptional at it, you're

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Speaker 2: going to see them out there forming partnerships or doing

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Speaker 2: those things all day long. And it really brings a

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Speaker 2: lot of leverage to the business.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a good takeaway for someone who

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Speaker 1: isn't a executive or founder as well. It's what are

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Speaker 1: you talent inherently talented at? What are you good at?

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Speaker 1: Lean into that, and then what can you maybe pass

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Speaker 1: off to other people who are good at that. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it plays out in relationships, plays out day to

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Speaker 1: day work, all these different areas.

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Speaker 2: Very that's very true. I mean there are usually that

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Speaker 2: it's really funny. We laugh in my own household that

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Speaker 2: there's always someone who's great at spreadsheets and somebody who's not.

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Speaker 2: And the spreadsheet person is the person who you know,

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Speaker 2: does all these calculations, and the other person's like, this

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Speaker 2: is what I think that I want, Like this is

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Speaker 2: what I you know, other person's always running the back end.

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Speaker 2: That may not always be true, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: it's often true, and so it's kind of funny. And

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Speaker 2: you find that this even plays out at home with

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Speaker 2: incredibly successful people that you know there are things in

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Speaker 2: their lives that they're not that great at, and they

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Speaker 2: know they're not great at. I had a female CEO

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Speaker 2: who I actually I love, and she said, you know,

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Speaker 2: I had to decide, you know, what the things were

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Speaker 2: that were important to me to like being a great mom,

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Speaker 2: and to she didn't have a lot of time, and

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Speaker 2: she's like, you know, it couldn't be. I couldn't be

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Speaker 2: making cupcakes. That's not what being a great mom is

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Speaker 2: to me. To me, it's spending time with someone, it's

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Speaker 2: really getting to know them, it's having that quality. And

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Speaker 2: so sometimes people judge, you know, whether it's a man

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Speaker 2: who's the head of a company or a woman who's

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Speaker 2: the head of a company, like they're going to define

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Speaker 2: their their roles even at home in ways that like

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Speaker 2: really can lean into strengths and things that really suit

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Speaker 2: their lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I can tell you that I am not

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Speaker 1: the spreadsheet person of my home.

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Speaker 3: That is.

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Speaker 1: If my wife Leah is listening to this right now,

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Speaker 1: she's going, yeah, that is not You tell us about

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Speaker 1: this idea of haunting agitation.

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Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people carry kind of

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Speaker 2: this this I call it haunting agitation because it's the

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Speaker 2: thing that kind of needles at you, that tells you

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Speaker 2: that you could be doing more, that you should be

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Speaker 2: doing more, that there is a place that you're not

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Speaker 2: fulfilling that you could be, and there are people who

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Speaker 2: kind of walk around with that all the time. I

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Speaker 2: think that people at the highest levels also have it

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Speaker 2: in some really interesting ways because they also know that

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Speaker 2: they could be better, bigger, more successful, and larger in

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Speaker 2: their more impactful in their own ways. But I think

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Speaker 2: that the average person walks around with a lot of that,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that it often goes unfulfilled is as

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Speaker 2: a tragedy really. I think if you want to kind

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Speaker 2: of take the temperature of that, if you go to

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Speaker 2: a family pa nic or reunion. I mean we were

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Speaker 2: speaking on Memorial Day, but if you go to a

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Speaker 2: family picnic and just go around and ask people what

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Speaker 2: did you want to be? What are what are the

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Speaker 2: dreams you had for your life? And then you kind

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Speaker 2: of get some feedback and start asking them you know, well,

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Speaker 2: most of them will not have fulfilled on that dream.

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Speaker 2: There will be parts of it that they have, like

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Speaker 2: maybe they said, you know, I always wanted to have

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Speaker 2: a family, and they'll have that family and that's wonderful

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Speaker 2: and they find a lot of fulfillment in that. But

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Speaker 2: you also hear things like, you know, when I was

399
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Speaker 2: in my late teens, early twenties. I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: work with dolphins. I wanted to, you know, like hike

401
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Speaker 2: a mountain. I wanted to you know, do x Y

402
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Speaker 2: and Z. And you'll find so many of those dreams

403
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Speaker 2: were never fulfilled. And there'll always be reasons, you know,

404
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Speaker 2: that life got in the way or you know, there's

405
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Speaker 2: always going to be a reason. But there is sometimes

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Speaker 2: a real agitation with some people that they carry that

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Speaker 2: they never did fulfill on the thing that they really

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Speaker 2: really wanted to do. And I hope that people pay

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Speaker 2: attention to those those voices. You know, there's a great

410
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Speaker 2: saying that what you don't pay attention as a whisper

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Speaker 2: will become a scream, and I think that's very true

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Speaker 2: for many people. And if that's you and you're listening,

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Speaker 2: pay attention and kind of don't allow that to be

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Speaker 2: a regret of your life.

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Speaker 1: What do you tell people who talk about that, Like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm listening to this right now, let's I'm a

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Speaker 1: listener and I have a family, I have a job,

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Speaker 1: I have the stress that, okay, well I need to

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Speaker 1: keep money coming in because we have bills. But I

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Speaker 1: always wanted to be x Y dolphin trainer. How do

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Speaker 1: you square those two things?

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Speaker 2: There is always a plan, and you know, like I think,

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Speaker 2: building a plan if it means that much to you, right,

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Speaker 2: like we're talking about it, like I mentioned the dolphin thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's probably kind of silly, but like, if it

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Speaker 2: really means that much to you and it's something that's

427
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Speaker 2: so important, you form a plan. You join with your

428
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Speaker 2: spouse if you are married, and you say, hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is something I've always wanted to do. How could

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Speaker 2: we get there? And you sit down and you say, well,

431
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Speaker 2: we need this much in reserve savings and how much

432
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Speaker 2: would we learn here? And you actually map it out.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's an odd thing, but I think that

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Speaker 2: sometimes people do that with life plans too. You know,

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Speaker 2: we map out where we want to go and we

436
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 2: find a way to get there. And I don't think

437
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: that's an impossible thing. Something that anyone could do is

438
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: that if you ever, you know, think about what your

439
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: ideal life would look like, like maybe you want to

440
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: have a certain type of home or you want to

441
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: have a certain type of life, and you actually map

442
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: it out how much would it cost? It often doesn't

443
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: cost as much as you think if you look at

444
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: it from like a monthly basis, and I think that

445
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: that's true of almost everything. We just don't want to

446
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: shake our lives up. We don't want to take the chance,

447
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 2: we don't want uncertainty, we don't want judgment, we don't

448
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 2: want discomfort. To kind of go back to circle back

449
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 2: to one of your book's points. So I do think

450
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: that if you're willing to make the sacrifices necessary and

451
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: actually follow through on the actions, I think almost anything

452
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 2: is possible. And that's really a difference too, between those

453
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: who end up in certain places and those who don't,

454
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: is that they're actually willing to sacrifice to get where

455
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 2: they want to go. And it's hard because sometimes that

456
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: means you move away from family, and sometimes it means that,

457
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: you know, for one of my clients, I can remember

458
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: him saying that, you know, he and his wife and

459
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: his kids were living in this small apartment while his

460
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: siblings were, you know, buying homes and you know, having

461
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: a very going on vacations every year and doing all

462
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 2: this wonderful stuff. And you know, it's hard because it

463
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: could easily build resentment and your life looks a lot different,

464
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: and so like, what are you willing to sacrifice and

465
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: now you know he's doing quite well. And not everyone's

466
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: story ends up that way. But you know, sometimes people

467
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: have said, you know, your life will look like the

468
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: amount of hard conversations you're willing to have. But I

469
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: always think that your life really reflects the sacrifices you're

470
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: willing to make for the thing that you say you want.

471
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: And most people will say they want something and are

472
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: unwilling to support it with the sacrifices it might take.

473
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think too, if you're in a job

474
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: that you absolutely hate, if you are not a spreadsheet

475
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: person and you are filling out spreadsheets all day, even

476
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: if you try, if it doesn't go perfectly well, at

477
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: least it was interesting.

478
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 3: At least you had to figure things out.

479
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: It probably killed the monotony, and you got thrown into

480
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: the fire and you probably learned something from that fire.

481
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: And that's that's like an interesting part of living.

482
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: It's absolutely true. I think that it is an unbelievable

483
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: privilege to be able to, you know, make a jump

484
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: and make a leap. And that's why oftentimes too, if

485
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: you look at the stories of many people who get

486
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: to a certain place, you'll find that they ladder up

487
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: with their spouses, and I know that, you know, if

488
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: you talk candidly, like you know, you can see that

489
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: sometimes people's wives were supporting things while they were getting

490
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: things off the ground or you know, those are the

491
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: stories that are often untold. We see the outcomes linked

492
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: with specific people, and we don't see kind of the

493
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: journey to get there. I think that's a real shame

494
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: because that would really be the inspiration for people to say, Wow,

495
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: my life looks like that and that was stage two, right,

496
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: Like that wasn't where they ended up. And so I

497
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: always hope that. I mean, it's not a great social

498
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: media post, but it is something that is true and

499
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: I think would make people feel incredibly validated on their

500
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: journey forward.

501
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people on social media say that

502
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: making money will never make you happy.

503
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: You've pushed back a little bit on that. Tell us

504
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: your take.

505
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: There, Yeah, I think research supports it. So that's why

506
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: I you know, like I tend to I try to

507
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: be very research based as much as possible. But you know,

508
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 2: the things that money buys people always think about it

509
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 2: like oh, being a ferrari, you know, or some kind

510
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: of beautiful estate somewhere but what money also buys is

511
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: good healthcare. It buys the ability to get physical therapy

512
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: after you have a surgery. It buys, you know, the

513
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: ability to support parents who may not have you know,

514
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: good support or medical care, or you know, housing. It

515
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: buys time, the ability to just spend time with your

516
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: family and not have to work three jobs. It buys

517
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: great food and nutrition. It buys optionality so where you

518
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: live and the circumstances and the times of pollution you

519
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 2: may encounter or face, you know, and it also, you know,

520
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: one of the things we know about money is that

521
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: it relieves hassle, so you don't have to wait for

522
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 2: the bus you could like, you know, the one thing

523
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: about very very wealthy people is that they reduced hassle

524
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: in our life everywhere. And so, you know, I was

525
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: talking with one client. He was like, yeah, you know,

526
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: like my plane is like getting in a car. You know,

527
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: I drive to a location, I just get into the plane,

528
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: I get there, I come out, I get back into

529
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: a car, I go where I'm going to go. And

530
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 2: then he's always home for dinner. He's always spending time

531
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: with his family, and that brings happiness. You know, if

532
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: you had to have those meetings and you had to

533
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: fly commercial. You're sitting in an airport for two hours,

534
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: on the plane for hours. You're on the other side

535
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: for however long that you have to be. You can't

536
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: be home for dinner, you can't be spending time with

537
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: your family. That's a two day trip at least. And so,

538
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: you know, money does buy a lot of happiness. And

539
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: I think that if you're unhappy, you know, if you're

540
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: unhappy with money, you're going to be unhappy without it.

541
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: And I don't think that that's always the reason for

542
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 2: your happiness, but it sure does make life better. It

543
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: relieves a ton of stressors. And I think that you know,

544
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: research shows that the more money that you have and

545
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: being in a place, comfortable place financially, it definitely supports

546
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: increases in happiness. And we see that across the board.

547
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, the client who has the plane is not me.

548
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: That is one of the great universal injustices in the

549
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: world right now. Some people that'll get stuck in survival

550
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: mode even after they've made some money. How do you

551
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: work what does that look like and how do you

552
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: work with those people?

553
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: There's a fascinating interview. If people ever want to watch

554
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: it with jk Rowling and Oprah, and jk Rowling was

555
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: talking about how she was still afraid, even after making

556
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 2: a billion plus dollars, that somehow she's going to lose

557
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: it all and be an idiot and she's going to

558
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: end up poor again. And she asked Oprah across the table, well,

559
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: don't you think about that? Don't you worry about it?

560
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: And Oprah just kind of sits back and says, no,

561
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 2: I realize I'll always be rich. And I think it

562
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: was a really interesting point of differentiation because those are

563
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: That was such an honest moment to me as someone

564
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: who has met with people in that kind of ecosystem,

565
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: that there are people who genuinely believe that it could

566
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: all end tomorrow, it could all go away, and there

567
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: are people who understand that, like, look, I could spend

568
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: an insane amount of money every day and it just

569
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: isn't going to go away. I finally have accepted that

570
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: about my life. I think how I work with people

571
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: to kind of get beyond that is really go the

572
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: layer under which is a layer of like what do

573
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: you really fear? What's the fear? Because it's not really

574
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: about you know, the fact that they could be poor

575
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: again or lose it all. It's really there's a fear

576
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: around scarcity and poverty and the kind of life they

577
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: would have to return to or kind of all of

578
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: these kind of things. So there's always this kind of

579
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: nervous system, the system awareness of the potential. You know,

580
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: poverty is like a trauma. I think people don't talk

581
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: about that enough and it leaves kind of a residue

582
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: with a lot of people. You don't see that so

583
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: much with people who don't come from backgrounds who have

584
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: really struggled in some way, but you definitely see it

585
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: with people who have had struggle. And I think that

586
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: that's the ultimate kind of stain that you work with,

587
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: is you know, having them truly believe that that trauma

588
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: is over. I don't work with them as a thererapist.

589
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: I'm not a therapist, but we deal with the fear

590
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: and we look at it cognitively, like, you know, is

591
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: what's the evidence for this, and let's look at all

592
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: the evidence that this is not true. And I think

593
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: when you start to get into the evidence and you

594
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: start to really look at things like that, people start

595
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: to recognize that they're not in a space where they

596
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: have to worry any longer. But what's really fascinating too

597
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: is that most people have very little empathy for people

598
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: in those situations, but it still can be a real

599
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: point of anxiety or stress for people.

600
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the classic cases people who grow

601
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: up in a great depression, like my grandma. It's like,

602
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: once you gave you a birthday or Christmas gift, you

603
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: couldn't just tear it open. You had to unwrap it

604
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: carefully because we're using that wrapping paper next year and

605
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: you're just like grandma, Grandpa retired at like fifty five.

606
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: We can we can tear the paper and have some

607
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: fun here. One thing you've said is that a lot

608
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: of what you do is helping people not get in

609
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: their own way.

610
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: How does that manifest itself?

611
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: I think that if you think about it, you know,

612
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: my job is not to help people structure companies or

613
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: do those types of things, because I think the people

614
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: I work with are far better at that. But the

615
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: only thing that limits even you or me is you

616
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: know who we are, the people, the person the decisions

617
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: we make, and so we kind of are always pushing

618
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: at you know, they We all know what the optimal

619
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: decisions are most of the time. You know, if I

620
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: asked you what would be the next level in your

621
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: own career, you could probably tell me. But if I

622
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: start asking you, well, why aren't you doing it? You

623
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: know what is kind of preventing that? Well, then now

624
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: we get into all the excuses, all the reasons, right,

625
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: And some of those reasons might be, you know, valid,

626
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: and maybe you don't want to go on a book

627
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: tour and hit every state and that's exhausting to you.

628
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: And maybe you're an introvert and you hate that stuff,

629
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: and that's totally fine. But you know, there are always

630
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: reasons why we're not doing the thing we know we

631
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: could do. And so I think that that, in a

632
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: very simplified way, is true for everyone. And so my

633
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: job is really as a doctor of psychology, is to

634
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: understand where those barriers are and really challenge them around it.

635
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: And I think that they enjoy that kind of challenge

636
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: because deep down, these are people who pay me because

637
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: they want to be better, They want to be at

638
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: that next level, and they want to kind of hit

639
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: against those walls and get through them. And so that's

640
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: really where I start, is kind of asking them questions

641
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: about what the next level would be, what's the next

642
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: thing they need to do, and making sure that I'm

643
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: very specific about, you know, aligning their goals to the

644
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: questions that I ask, and then really kind of nudging

645
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: them and pushing them about why these things are not

646
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: happening or you know, what's kind of the holdback and

647
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: some of these things and digging into those areas whatever

648
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: they might be.

649
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: We're going to take a quick break.

650
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: When we get back, Julie is going to tell us

651
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: why not all billionaires are evil and why they're actually

652
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: doing a lot of good in the world. I want

653
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: to get into some of your I would say contrarian takes.

654
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: I love your Twitter feed, I love your sub stack

655
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: because you do have some takes that go against the grain,

656
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: and yet you come with receipts in the form of evidence,

657
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: and you also are working with people on the ground.

658
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: First one, billionaires get a lot of shit, But you

659
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: say billionaires are necessary and they sort of get too

660
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: much shit.

661
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: What is your take there?

662
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: My take is that they provide a lot of I

663
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: think that people get very angry at billionaires only of

664
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: a certain sort. So I think that that's where my

665
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: challenges are. Like no one is raging against Taylor Swift,

666
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: and no, I mean they really aren't right, And we

667
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: aren't raging against athletes who are millionaires. But yet, you know,

668
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: so we give them a pass. And yet at its

669
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: very base, and you know, love Taylor Swift. I don't

670
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: know her music well, but like, I'm sure she's a

671
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: great person, but she plays guitar and sings for a living, right,

672
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: I mean, that's her contribution. It's lovely. But then there

673
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: will be a billionaire who runs a company that employs

674
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: two million people or a million people or three hundred thousand

675
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: people and provides you know, their income and their family's income,

676
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: their healthcare and continues to do that, and we think

677
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: they're the enemy, right, Like, so the person who just

678
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: is making the millions of dollars by catching a ball

679
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: or playing a guitar, they're great. The person who provides

680
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: jobs and you know, security and all of those things

681
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: for hundreds of thousands of people, that's the problem. And

682
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,479
Speaker 2: so for me, I always feel like there's something that's

683
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: not quite right there. So it's not that I'm defending

684
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: the billionaires. I think that what I'm defending is that

685
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: you know, we have this way of judging some and

686
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: not others. And it's, you know, my thing that really

687
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: bothers me. And you'll see this everywhere if you even

688
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: knew me personally, as logical inconsistency, that is like the

689
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: thing that is my sticking point forever. And so if

690
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: we're going to hate billionaires as a society, we should

691
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: hate them all, but we don't. We only hate the

692
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: ones that are in business that actually have a lot

693
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: of societal value that we see on the ground too,

694
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: And not to say the others don't. I think they

695
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: all have societal values. You earn what the market is

696
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: willing to give you, and that's fine, and I think sometimes,

697
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: you know, if we have a problem with that, we

698
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: should kind of talk more about what that means for

699
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: us and why.

700
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: Another take is that stoicism is really popular right now.

701
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: It's kind of about suppressing emotions. But you say that

702
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: that can be counterproductive because emotions can be used as energy.

703
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: So tell us about that.

704
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a really big fan. I think that stoicism

705
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: can be useful, so I'm with you on that. But

706
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 2: where I see that that stoicism is not useful is

707
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: that with everyone I've worked with you know, energy to me,

708
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: whether it's negative emotions or it's positive emotions, you know,

709
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 2: it's so much energy. So if you have anger or rage,

710
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: why would you suppress that? I think that you are

711
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: in suppressing it, you are killing a source of energy

712
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: that you could channel into something just absolutely phenomenal. There

713
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 2: are so many, you know, wonderful companies, careers that are

714
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: built on spite and anger, and I'm going to show

715
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: you energy and just you know, f the world like

716
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: there are so many people who build empires on that stuff,

717
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: and I am not going to take that away from people.

718
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: I think that if you've been wronged and if you've

719
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: been hurt, you can use that in a self destructive way,

720
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: you know, where you burn down everything around you, your relationships,

721
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 2: you can get into addiction. There's so many horrible things

722
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 2: that can happen, but you can get that same person

723
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 2: is absolutely enraged by the things that have happened in

724
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: their life, and every day they're going to figure out

725
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: a way to make their life phenomenal. And they're going

726
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: to study, and they're going to work, and they're going

727
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: to use every resource available, and they're going to work

728
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: eighty hour weeks if they have to or more and

729
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: they're going to make something of themselves. And like, why

730
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: would I stomp that out just because it's based in anger.

731
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: We are humans are total packages meant to experience a

732
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: range of emotions, and I think to say, oh, you

733
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: should only be, you know, very tempered in everything that

734
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: you do is kind of, you know, silliness. How much

735
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: reaction you want to give to other people is a

736
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: separate question, and I think we're talking about but you know,

737
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: how you experience that emotion should be full out and

738
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: channel it the right way. And I think it's a

739
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: phenomenal source of energy.

740
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like every emotion we have, there's a good

741
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: evolutionary reason we have it. And so then the question

742
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: today is are you going to use it in a

743
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: way that is going to help you? And ideally you will.

744
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: I mean it's like Michael Jordan, right, Like people who

745
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: have a chip on their shoulder often do great things.

746
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: Like that guy needed to find some perceived slight and

747
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: he would just invent stuff so we could get on

748
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: the court. And I'm killing this person and he's one

749
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: of the.

750
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: Great Absolutely, he's such a great example, wonderful example.

751
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: What's a good company example, you mentioned companies that have

752
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: been built on I.

753
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: Can think of clients that I've talked to who that

754
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: is true for, And I'm trying to think if there

755
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: as a public example that we know of that is

756
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 2: kind of built on spite. I know that one thing

757
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: that was really interesting there's an early interview with Jeff

758
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: Bezos where he's talking about Amazon, and I think it

759
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: was David Rubinstein, I'm not sure. Someone asked him, well,

760
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: what do you what do you really want to do?

761
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: And he said, you know, one day, I want to

762
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: go to space, like I want to build something. I

763
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 2: want to go to space, and the whole audience laughs.

764
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: It's a really interesting moment. They all laugh at him

765
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 2: and he's like, no, no, I know it's a hard problem,

766
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: but like I really think that we can do it,

767
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: and everyone's just kind of laughing and making fun. And

768
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: then I remember, you know, years later, I think it's

769
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: like two decades later that you know, he was being

770
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: coming off of his kind of trip the first time

771
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 2: that he went on his ship that was in still

772
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: you know, high up an Earth's pull, and he stated

773
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 2: that he wanted to build infrastructure on the Moon or something,

774
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 2: and people, no, one was laughing. Everyone took him seriously,

775
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: but like you have to know that everyone laughing at

776
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: him when he said that this was his goal. I

777
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: had to stick with him to some extent. And so,

778
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: you know, Blue Origin. I think would be really interesting

779
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: to ask Jeff Hey, like, tell me a little bit

780
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 2: about this. It was your childhood dream. You mentioned it publicly,

781
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 2: people laughed at you. How'd you ingest that? I would

782
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: love to know.

783
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

784
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: I know a guy who helped me with a lot

785
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: of personal things, and he said that some people made

786
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 1: a pat on the back and some need a kick

787
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: in the ass, and it's like finding the right thing

788
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: and you can use either one. Pivot bet, Since we

789
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: were talking about emotions, you recently lost your dog.

790
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: I lost my dog. What did you learn from losing

791
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: your dog?

792
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: Man? My dog? I lost my dog almost around it,

793
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: almost a year ago. And I think that for me,

794
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: you know, like animals are something really precious to me.

795
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: I see them as kind of you know, there are

796
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: other souls in this world, and you know, I connect

797
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 2: very deeply with the animals that I have. I'm on

798
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: our farm right now, and you know, almost every barn

799
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: cat that we have, somebody dropped off on the side

800
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: of the road, and the one that we inherited, the

801
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: former owner called Satan, which was like who calls an

802
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: animal that? But nonetheless we named her Felicia after the

803
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: Bye Felicia meme because she was she would look at

804
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: you and run away. Is a fast friend and I

805
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 2: can pet her and she's wonderful and she loves affection.

806
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: But losing my dog kind of you know, I've I've

807
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: lost a few dogs in my life and each one

808
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: of them are just devastating. I mean just personally devastating.

809
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: They are a presence that is constant, that is unconditional,

810
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: that they bring their own personalities. So I think, you know,

811
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: what it teaches me is that you you love hard

812
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: and then you know, the impact of the loss is

813
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: just because you love them, like they don't know that

814
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: you're struggling. It has nothing to do with really them,

815
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: but it has to do with the fact that you

816
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: allowed yourself to connect with something that is fleeting and

817
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: that is it is going to leave you. I think

818
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: that takes a lot of courage and it's something I

819
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: hope to do again. You know, like losing a pet

820
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 2: is hard. How do you process the loss of like

821
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: a pet like that.

822
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: I reflect on just how how many good times we had,

823
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, it was very hard, especially my dog. We

824
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: learned he had cancer and it was basically, he's got

825
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: thirty days and so you're the clock is ticking. And

826
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: that definitely changed my behavior to savor those thirty days.

827
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: But I also look back and went, I didn't behave

828
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: that much differently with him when I knew he was

829
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: dying versus when he was healthy, you know, And so

830
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 1: I could appreciate that, and I think it also colored

831
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: my worldview not only on my other pets, but a

832
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: lot of other moments where you go, you know, eventually,

833
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: this is good.

834
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 3: The clock's going to run out, so this is what

835
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 3: you're gonna remember.

836
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: It's like that scene in the Sopranos where they're at

837
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: the diner and it's raining at the restaurant and he's like,

838
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: these are the good times.

839
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 3: You know, this is it? So I think that would

840
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: be my takeaway.

841
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break and then Julie's going

842
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: to come back and share with us why modesty is

843
00:42:51,440 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: totally overrated. You wrote that be humble is often terrible advice.

844
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: Why is that if most.

845
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: People I knew were more humble, they would disappear into

846
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: the ground. You know, like if you are doing something

847
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: in this world that you are proud of, you know,

848
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: humble is often seen as just being modest. I think

849
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: that oftentimes it is devaluing who you are. You'll even

850
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: hear people kind of talk down about their contributions. But

851
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: if you don't kind of put forth what you're genuinely

852
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: good at and kind of own that, then other people

853
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: who are seeking that skill or that ability never connect

854
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 2: with you. And I think it does the world a

855
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: disservice when you're humble. I think it's not just doing

856
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: you a disservice, which it clearly does, because you know,

857
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: people will, you know, put themselves lower than they need

858
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: to be. But I think it does the world a

859
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: disservice because people who really value what you bring to

860
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: the world can't find you, or they overlook you by

861
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: your own decisions and choices and the words. I think

862
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: that people there's nothing more amazing than people who know

863
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: what they're great at and you know, not being a

864
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: jerk about it either. It doesn't mean that you have

865
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: to be arrogant, but it having the ability to surface

866
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: what you're great at and bring that to the world

867
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: and other people connecting with it and really finding value

868
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: in it. Like that's how we get the best of,

869
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: you know, everything in life. I mean like if I

870
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 2: have a if there's someone i'm talking with, I'm trying

871
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: to find a great carpenter and he's like, well, I'm

872
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: not really that good, Like I'm going to probably believe him,

873
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: versus the person who comes and says, you know what,

874
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 2: I build these incredible cabinets for this woman. You know,

875
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: like last week, let me show you a picture of

876
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: some of the mill work that we did. I would

877
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: be like, this is fantastic. You are so talented, and

878
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: you know he spent his life work on that. He's

879
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: out of it. To me, that's not a jerk. That

880
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: helps me find someone that I would love to appreciate

881
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: and bring into my life. So I think about it

882
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: like that. I don't think about it in a kind

883
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: of braggy kind of way.

884
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.

885
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: You're mostly working with people high up in the business world.

886
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: What do you feel like are the things that you

887
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: do that most scale down to.

888
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 3: Everyone.

889
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: There's a few things. One is how you frame everything,

890
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: is how you approach it, and it's all about how

891
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: you think about it. So whatever challenges lie before you

892
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: or I guess you know that's my bias. But like

893
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: when you see something that's an obstacle, or you see

894
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: something that's a problem, if you can reframe it to

895
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 2: a challenge, I think that reframing life's hardest things can

896
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: do you an incredible service in your life. No matter

897
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: where you're at in your career or your life, you

898
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: have something that's happening, reframe it, think about it differently,

899
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: to say, how could I be more productively thinking about this?

900
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: That is equally true because you don't want to lie

901
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 2: to yourself. But there's better ways of thinking about things.

902
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: I think we get so tunneled in and locked in

903
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: that we don't see that there are other ways of

904
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: thinking about the same challenge that could do us, get

905
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: us amped up, get us to tackle it differently or

906
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: think differently. So I think how we frame things. I

907
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 2: think the second thing is to lean into your quirky self,

908
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: like whoever you are, if you're kind of a weird person.

909
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: I think everyone is pushing to conformity and it is

910
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: the wrong path, right, Like if you are pushing to

911
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: fit into everyone else, and then you're mad that you're

912
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: just like everyone else and your outcomes aren't different. There's

913
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: a reason for that, so you kind of have to

914
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 2: wade through the kind of backlash of weirdness to get

915
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: to the outlier good stuff. And I hope that people,

916
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: regardless of where they're at, they say, like, there's a

917
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: guy that I connected with on Instagram and I won't

918
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: say his name, maybe it would be embarrassing for him,

919
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: but he is this like massive weightlifter and we have

920
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: connected on floor tiles, vintage floor tiles and curtains awesome,

921
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: and he is like fantastic with old homes and stuff,

922
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: but like he kind of like periodically will pepper this

923
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: stuff in. But it's what makes him an incredible guy.

924
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: He could lean into all the big weightlifting stuff, which

925
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: you know he has probably for much of his career,

926
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 2: but he also is just like such an incredible person

927
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: in some of these little quirky interests he has. We

928
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: love quirky people in the world, and I think that

929
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: I would not want people to kind of dampen that

930
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: just to be like everyone else. It makes them boring.

931
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: It makes the world boring, and it reduces the chance

932
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: that you will be an outlier yourself. Like how we

933
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: remember people is because of their quirks, not because they're

934
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: like everybody else.

935
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are some of your personal quirks that you've

936
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 3: leaned into.

937
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 2: I have so many of them, it's probably very unpleasant

938
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: for others at this time. One of them is that

939
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: logical consistency quirk. It makes me absolutely insane that when

940
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: things are not logically consistent across the board. So that's

941
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: definitely a quirk. I think that my personality lends itself.

942
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: I'm very I'm very introverted as a person, and that's

943
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 2: why I do great with kind of one to one work.

944
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: And I have really turned down things that would push

945
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: outside of that space just because I think that, you know,

946
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: like I'm going to push into what I'm really great

947
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: at and I'm not going to go outside of that

948
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: very often. I don't. I really enjoy like I've built

949
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: my life kind of around that. You know. I have

950
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: a farm and I enjoy that, and I enjoy animals

951
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: and being outdoors, and so I think that's kind of

952
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: a quirk of mind that no matter what I'm offered,

953
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: there's certain kind of things set up in my life

954
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 2: to make my life what I want it to be.

955
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: I think that I'm also very quirky about the style

956
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: that I have. I've probably been wearing similar things since

957
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: I was in college, probably haven't changed all that much.

958
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: I like just really classic things. My watches from nineteen

959
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: seventy three. I like very old vintagy things. My pen

960
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: is even from the seventies. I think, you know, I

961
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 2: guess I'm my own kind of quirky person. I'm sure

962
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 2: that you are as well, if you're writing the books

963
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: that you do.

964
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: I do have some of my own personal quirks and

965
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: they have made it into my work, and luckily I've

966
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: been able to make, you know, some sort of income

967
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: off the quirks, although it's not all quirks. Regarding the farmhouse,

968
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: So you've got this farmhouse in Pennsylvania. I saw, I

969
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: think it was you tweeted. It's like twenty twenty six

970
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: inside the farmhouse with your work, all the tech. But

971
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: then you go outside and it's like nineteen ten and

972
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: it's in Amish country. What have you learned from moving

973
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: out there and how has that changed you?

974
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, I love it so much. So our farm,

975
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: our farm is a couple hundred years old and it

976
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: is this awesome historic farm that has been pain renovating.

977
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: I want. That's the other thing that I kind of

978
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 2: do on the side of renovate old properties is probably

979
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: the third that we've renovated. The harvest we've renovated. But

980
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: kind of having this high tech internal world and being

981
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: able to step outside is like such a breath of

982
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 2: fresh air. Nobody cares about technology where I live, nobody

983
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: talks about technology. So it's actually a complete break from

984
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 2: your work. And I love that. I love that I can,

985
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 2: you know, interact with people who are riding their horses

986
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: and there's never a conversation about AI. No one cares

987
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 2: about politics, no one really. I mean, it's hey, how's

988
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: your crop of peaches coming? And you know, hey, you

989
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: know like that hard Frost was really tough on the trees,

990
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: and man, I just love that because I get to

991
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 2: have a cognitive break, but also I get to connect

992
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: with people in ways that are genuine and wonderful and

993
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: just about who we are as people. And if you're

994
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: if in my area, if you're a good person and

995
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: a good neighbor, nobody cares about anything else about you.

996
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: Do you work hard? Do you take care of your place?

997
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: Do you keep it neat? And everyone really supports each other.

998
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 2: The other day there was a woman who lost your

999
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 2: dog and I saw it down by our pond and

1000
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: we were like tracking it and like, that's the good

1001
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: stuff in life, and I don't It also keeps me

1002
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 2: reminded of the things that really matter. I think that's

1003
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: incredibly important. I'm really opposed to kind of egostroking and

1004
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: you know, thinking you're a big deal no matter who

1005
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: you are. And I think that it's great to just

1006
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: live in a place where you know, we're a community

1007
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: and we all look out for each other and we

1008
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: care about the things that make the community great.

1009
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then Julie's

1010
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: going to tell us the moment in her life that

1011
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: unlock things and realized she could have an amazing future.

1012
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: You've changed a lot of people's lives with your work.

1013
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: What in your work has changed your own life? Is

1014
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: there a concept where you're like, this thing just opened

1015
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: things up for me.

1016
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: I think that you know, there's a couple it has

1017
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: happened also in this work. When I was in grad school,

1018
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: I grew up on a farm that was very different

1019
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: from this one where was this It was also in

1020
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania in a very different location. But you know, the

1021
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 2: wealthiest people we knew were probably physicians, right, And so

1022
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: when I went to graduate school, I went to graduate

1023
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: school in Connecticut, and some early years in grad school

1024
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 2: I was you know, you drive and you can go

1025
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 2: to the Gold Coast and see all these hedge fund

1026
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 2: people's homes, and it was really eye opening. And it

1027
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: was eye opening because the what you believed when you

1028
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 2: are not in that situation is that wealth is rare.

1029
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 2: And it was the first time I was able to

1030
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 2: see that, like, there are a lot of homes out here.

1031
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 2: Wealth is not rare, like you can find it everywhere.

1032
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 2: These you know, ten twenty million dollar homes, just gorgeous properties.

1033
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking to myself, like, if a few

1034
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: people can do this, I can do it too, Like

1035
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: there is nothing of special that I can't learn or

1036
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 2: I can't you know, think about think about achieving. And

1037
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 2: as I went through and later on in life, you know,

1038
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 2: now being at the place that I'm at, I get

1039
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: to see people who are at a very different level

1040
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 2: from that, and I think that they're a good analogy

1041
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 2: for it is that sometimes you can't see what's on

1042
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 2: the other side of the door until you open the door.

1043
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 2: You know, I was able to open one door earlier

1044
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 2: in life to see what was possible. I think now

1045
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: like my day in who I speak with on a

1046
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: regular basis, doors open all the time, and I'm able

1047
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 2: to see what is possible. And I think that it

1048
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: changes my own range of vision, and it has for

1049
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 2: a number of years that, you know, the things that

1050
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 2: I think about for my own life become greater. Not

1051
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: that I want anything, like I don't want my own plane,

1052
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: even though I think that would be great, But it's

1053
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 2: a more about, you know, the kind of possible impact

1054
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 2: you can have in this world. There's a really there's

1055
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: a man that I really like who I've never gotten

1056
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: to speak with, who but I would love to so

1057
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: if he ever listens to your podcast, great his name's

1058
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: Greg Carr. And Greg Carr sold something to Voicemail System

1059
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 2: years twenty years ago or something. But he sold it

1060
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: for nine hundred million dollars and he decided he was

1061
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 2: going to redo this great kind of nature preserve and

1062
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: the Zambique and he made, you know, creative industry for

1063
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: people and created all this rebuilding of society, and I think,

1064
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: you know, you see people who can have these massive

1065
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 2: impacts in the world, and even though the people I

1066
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 2: speak with are not doing the same things, they're having

1067
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: incredible global impact. They can steer that whatever way they wish,

1068
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 2: and so you think about, well, you know, not everyone's

1069
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: going to make the same choice as you are, but

1070
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be great to be able to have more

1071
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: of an impact in this world and to be able

1072
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: to take the chance and to do the things that

1073
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: you want to do and to kind of circle back.

1074
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 2: That's why I think that, you know, when people denigrate

1075
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: those who have money, there's so much good you can do.

1076
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 2: There's so much impact you can have, and you get

1077
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: to do it your own way, So why not? You know?

1078
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: So that really has inspired me speaking with people that

1079
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 2: there's a world full out there of impact and have

1080
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: a little audacity to bring it back and really go

1081
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: for it. You know, why not? Why not? You?

1082
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 3: I love that?

1083
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: And it's it's you had to have a different experience.

1084
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: You had to go somewhere else to have the see

1085
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: those first mansions in Connecticut. You had to start having conversations.

1086
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: So it took action on your part in an environment

1087
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: that was unfamiliar, probably a little uncertain, but you were

1088
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: willing to go there and do the work.

1089
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 2: The whole game is exposure. You know, once you see

1090
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: what is possible. And that's why I love the Internet

1091
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: for so many reasons for people who are young, because

1092
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 2: when I was growing up, it wasn't there that date

1093
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 2: to me. But the goodness of it is that it

1094
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 2: shows you what is possible, and you can learn anything

1095
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 2: and do anything. And so I really hope that if

1096
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: you're not sure about something, start exposing yourself to those rooms.

1097
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 2: You had a client once who couldn't afford to go

1098
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 2: to conferences and he would just pay and sit in

1099
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 2: the lobby of the hotel and meet all the people.

1100
00:56:58,680 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: Awesome.

1101
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: There are ways that you can start, no matter where

1102
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: you're at, So I hope that everybody takes that chance.

1103
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 3: I love it all.

1104
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 2: Right.

1105
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 3: Final question.

1106
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: If we sit down five years from now and you

1107
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: say I had an amazing five years since we last talked,

1108
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: what would have happened.

1109
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 2: It's interesting because I think more in terms of personal

1110
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 2: goals than professional goals right now, So I think what

1111
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: would have happened if I had an amazing five years

1112
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: is that it's going to sound really odd that I

1113
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: have a completely off grid farm awesome that is finally finished,

1114
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 2: and that I'm able to have impact in my local community,

1115
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 2: especially through some of the animal shelters and the work

1116
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: that happens there, and that our farm is known for

1117
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: kind of being a support to the community. I think

1118
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: that's where my impact is right now, and then all

1119
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: of the other things in my career or kind of

1120
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: secondary to that impact.

1121
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 3: I love it.

1122
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: Well, Julie, thanks so much for coming on the show.

1123
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the conversation.

1124
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It was wonderful meeting you. Michael.

1125
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out the show, and thanks to Julie

1126
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: for jumping on. Please do check out her ultra successful substack.

1127
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: It's a really good one. New episodes of two Percent.

1128
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:20,959
Speaker 1: They're going to be in your feed twice a week,

1129
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: so please subscribe so you get all those updates and

1130
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: can hit every single episode. We're always open to your

1131
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: questions for our ask Michael anything section, send them to

1132
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: media at twopct dot com or just drop them in

1133
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: the comments, and as always, have fun, don't die and

1134
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: listen to Doctor Julie and unlock new performance,