1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stupports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we have a very special 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: guest on the podcast, Doctor and Helen Peterson. That's right. 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: Dr and Helen Peterson writes a whole lot of awesome 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: stuff on so many websites. Where when does she sleep? Um, 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: focusing on star studies, celebrity culture, and especially celebrity scandals. Yeah. 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: She received her PhD from the University of Texas at 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: Austin in the Department of Radio, Television and Film. And 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm explaining this because you might be thinking, how does 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: one study celebrities, Well, this is how you do it. 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: She also wrote a dissertation called the Gossip Industry, Producing 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: and Distributing Star Images, Celebrity Gossip and Entertainment News. And 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to look into the history of Hollywood gossip. 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: It says so much about our society and about how 16 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: you know we're we're such a tabloid society today. And 17 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: she is working on a book that will be published 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: in May by Plume Penguin called The Scandals of Classic Hollywood, 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: based on her column for the hairpin by the same name, 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: and so we decided that we got to talk to 21 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: Dr Peterson, Annie about scandal. That's right, the show, the history, 22 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: the gendered aspects of course, yes, and some feminists. We 23 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: have a lot to talk about. So let's get on 24 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: with our scandalous conversation with Anne Helen Peterson. The title 25 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: of your blog is Celebrity Gossip of Academic Style. And 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: for listeners who aren't familiar with your work, can you 27 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 1: fill us in a little bit about how you've built 28 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: your career around the intersection of celebrity and academia. Yeah, 29 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: so celebrity studies is something that you know, I have 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: by no means invented. It's been There's something called star studies, 31 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: which is a sub field of media film studies. UM 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: that's really been around since the late seventies and eighties. 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: There's this scholar named Richard Diard wrote this book called 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: Stars that like, when I first read it was like, 35 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, one of those ab moments, really saying that 36 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: you can look at a star and read it a 37 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: star's image the way that you would read any other 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: media text. So I think about what they're suggesting in 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: terms of like gender and sexuality and all sorts of 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: things about living in the world. Um. And the reason 41 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: my blog is called Celebrity Gossips academic style, Uh, you know, 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: I wanted it to be very very clear about precisely 43 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: what I was doing, which was focusing on celebrity gossip, 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: which everyone everyone, lots of people really enjoy, but then 45 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: also um, making it clear that I would be looking 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: at it not from a critical angle, but from an 47 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: introspective and analytical angle. And so I think that the 48 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: reason so many people like my blog is because they 49 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: wanted to think deeper thoughts about this gossip that they're consuming, 50 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: and I provide kind of a roadmap about how to 51 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 1: do that. Um. Now, this is probably a question that 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: you've been asked a lot, or maybe not, um, what 53 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: is the academic value of studying and analyzing celebrity scandal 54 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: and gossip? Because I have a feeling that you've you've 55 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: probably encountered some people who are like celebrity gossip that's 56 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: not worth studying. Oh yeah, well, I think that I mean, 57 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: whatever we consume, right, whether it's television or books or 58 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: magazines or comic books, like, whatever media we consume is 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: shaping us in all sorts of ways. And I think 60 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: that like most people would agree to that that, Like, 61 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, this is no like whether it's what we 62 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: call tracks or if it's hype quality doesn't matter. Like, 63 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: these are things that give us pleasure, So why don't 64 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: we think about why we were consuming to things that 65 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: were thinking that work doing um And I mean that's 66 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 1: really a turn actually go in in media studies that's 67 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: only happened in the last say, like thirty years, is 68 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: instead of decrying all of this pop culture stuff as 69 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: trash and saying like, oh, this is just numbing the masses, 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: instead thinking about how individuals take pleasure from them, but 71 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: also looking at them more closely and thinking about the 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: messages that they propagate. So like celebrity, I mean every 73 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: single celebrity, I could tell you what they're doing in 74 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: terms of like how they're suggesting a certain sexuality or 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: gender performance, or a way of being romantic, or a 76 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: scenario that is in some way palatable like the The 77 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: thing that I always get is people like when they 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: when I say a study celebrity, they almost always say 79 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: something like I don't understand why so and so is 80 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: the celebrity and ten years ago that was always Paris Hilton, 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: and now it's Kim Kardashian and what I love to 82 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: do there And this is a this isn't I didn't 83 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: come up with this. My friend Alice Leopard came up 84 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: with this. But to say, okay, so look at Kim 85 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: Kardashian's family. She has like this thundering dad. She has 86 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: like she's the older sister who's a prize but isn't 87 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: really that interesting. She has a younger sister who is 88 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: really interesting but not as traditionally beautiful. She has a 89 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: gaggle of younger siblings who the mom is all concerned 90 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: getting married off. And she has a mom who is 91 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: trying to salvage a once for the best family. And 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: that scenario, if you think about it, if I mean, 93 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: it's pride and prejudice, and so to think about why, 94 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not that Kim Kardashian herself is so compelling. 95 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there's all these other things that make her interesting, 96 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: but how she is acting now as scenario that oh, 97 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: that has been compelling to us for you know, hundreds 98 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: of years. Okay, So that's that's a really interesting statement. 99 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: I never thought about celebrity worship or following celebrities that way. Um, 100 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: what I'm interested in what appeals to you personally and 101 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: how you ended up in this field, But what appeals 102 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: to you personally about following celebrities lives? Um? So there's 103 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: this uh scholars name. His name is Joshua Gamson, and 104 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: he came up with he did this huge study of 105 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: gossip consumers and he came up with five different ways 106 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: that people consume gossip. And there are a very front 107 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: things from people who read the magazines and believe every 108 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: single thing that they read, to people who beat them 109 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: as pure camp. Right, it's just total artifice. And the 110 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: one though that really is so compelling to me and 111 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: really I identify with, is called the game player, which 112 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: is someone who looks at gossip as a puzzle. So 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: trying to figure out, Okay, why did their pulicies say this, 114 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: Like what are they doing by appearing at this event? 115 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Like why after there's rumors that Ben Affleck has been 116 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: cheated on Jennifer Garner, does Barazzi conveniently appear and take 117 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: pictures of her children in the park? Um? So, thinking 118 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: about it as this puzzle that, like every every celebrity 119 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: is trying to put together this image. So I am 120 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: much more interested in production side and thinking that through. 121 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: So growing up, though, where did you follow celebrity gossip? 122 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: Were you always kind of a the trying to figure 123 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: out that puzzle to at a young age? Oh? No, 124 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: I was much more interested in just like entertainment broadly. 125 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: I lived in a really small town in northern Idaho, 126 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: so there wasn't my My exposure to the media world 127 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: was through the magazine that came to my house and 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: we got Emagine a weekly from the very beginning, and 129 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: I was like a twelve year old child. I was 130 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: devouring every single issue like I would this is so embarrassing, 131 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: but I would put it together in like a database 132 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: that I had on my Apple TV and put like 133 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: the different things cataloging it, and then I would grade 134 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: the issue, like if the issue was like a B 135 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: plus and it's like I just I read it cover 136 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: to cover, even though all of this industry information, like 137 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, this was when Entertainment Weekly was much more 138 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: industrially focused, So like there's all this stuff on Sundance 139 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: and Harvey Weinstein and sex las videotape, and um, I 140 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: knew all everything about those movies, but I have never 141 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: seen them and I wouldn't see them for another ten years. 142 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: And so I think that that focus on production and 143 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: on kind of the game plane behind the scenes really 144 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: translates well into my focus on sobrin data. So you're 145 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: currently writing a book about the quote scandals of classic 146 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: Hollywood and UM quick plug for any listeners who have 147 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: not seen your series by the same name on the Hairpin, 148 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: it is fantastic. Um. So could you talk a little 149 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: bit about these old school scandals, like how do old 150 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: Hollywood scandals compare to the sex scand we hear about today? 151 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: I mean, are we are we still the public still 152 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: being shocked by the same type of star behavior. Well, 153 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: scandal generally is always culturally specific. So what I mean 154 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: by that is that you something only becomes scandalous when 155 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: it rushures the status quote at that time, So Ingrid 156 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: Bergmann in n cheated on her husband with Roberta. Russellini, 157 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: who was her director, was an Italian, the uber less director. 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: And now you know, if someone cheats on their husband, 159 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: but it's you know, it's slightly scaninless. But Ingrid Bergman 160 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: was denounced on the Senate floor as an instrument of 161 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: evil and essentially ended her American career. You know, that 162 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: sort of backlash would not happen today. So what it 163 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: was is that she was challenging what was very firmly 164 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: a part of the status quoe at that time. So 165 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, things today like can even coming out as gay, 166 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: right like Rock cuts in refuse even after it was 167 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: revealed that he had aids to come out as homosexual. 168 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: And now, I mean, I think that there's there's a 169 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: reason why Tom Cruise like refuses or not just not 170 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: suggesting that Tom CRUs gay, I am suggesting that he 171 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: has one lawsuits against people who have suggested that he 172 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: is gay by claiming that heterosexuality is crucial to his 173 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: image and so like, it's not necessarily I don't want 174 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: to say that it's super super easy to be out 175 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: in Hollywood today, but there's it's not what we would 176 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: think of as scandalous. So I would say that difference 177 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: is that, um, so early Hollywood, like early twenties, before 178 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: they had the stars, kind of like on Lockdown, there 179 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: were a series of events that it emphasized that the 180 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: like things were a little bit crazier. So, um, there 181 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: was a lot of drinking and drug use and more 182 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: sexual experimentation, basically sex out of my luck. Then what 183 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: we would what the rest of America wanted to leave 184 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: of their film idels, And so the m p A, 185 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: which is the association of studios, decided, Okay, let's lock 186 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: it down. And for the rest of the twenties and 187 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: thirties and forties, essentially there was just, you know, absolutely 188 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: the only thing that came out about the stars with 189 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: the things that the studios wanted to say about the stars. 190 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: So until Robert Mitchum got caused smoking pot in nineteen 191 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: fourty seven forty eight, there wasn't a scandal like it 192 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: was just Hollywood was perfect. And even things that happened 193 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: like Clark Cable clearly like not living with his wife 194 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: and living right next door to Carol Lombard, you know, 195 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: there was a way that the studios collaborated with the 196 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: fan magazines and the rest of the gossip apparatus to 197 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: be like they're just dating and they like they are 198 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: meant for each other and kind of keep that on 199 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: the download. So, I mean, I think that now it's 200 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: harder for stars to keep their images in control simply 201 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: because there are so many different UH outlets, both sanction 202 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: and unsanctioned, that are attempting to tell their store great 203 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: and attemption to get to the truth of their images. 204 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: But otherwise, I mean stars have always been wild, like 205 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: that hasn't changed, Yeah, because it sounds like, I mean 206 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that we would read about 207 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: in say Star magazine today, like someone cheating on someone 208 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: else or someone doing drugs at a club, like those 209 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: kinds of behaviors aren't anything new. But maybe it's just 210 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: the level of exposure that we're actually now just like 211 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: seeing it and hearing about it. Yeah, And I actually 212 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: think that that does it right, that thanks so much 213 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: cheating just because we see it so often. Although the 214 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: thing I mean, I would say that we still think 215 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: we still want to find out the truth of someone's sexuality, 216 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: like that is still at the bottom the site of 217 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: into truth. So whether that and I'm not saying just 218 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: like heterosexuality or homosexuality, it's also like is this person 219 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: is a woman super sexual? Or like, is there any 220 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: other predilections in bed? Like that is somehow really if 221 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: we can find that out, it seems like you can 222 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: somehow I understand the true identity person, right, and that 223 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: whole gender divide is something that we were really interested in, 224 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: particularly Um in your dissertation where you talk about how 225 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: early Hollywood scandal in the twenties in particular was especially 226 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: damning for female stars and why do you think why 227 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: were studios so anxious about these women's images and how 228 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: did they try to keep their female stars so squeaky clean? 229 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think in the teens and twenties there 230 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: was already this anxiety about the new woman in the 231 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: flapper and like the woman being out of the home 232 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: and just like all sorts of disruption in terms of 233 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: traditional female gender rules, and a lot of the stars 234 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: acted that out. So someone like Clara Bow was on 235 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: screen like she was just she was the perfect they 236 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: called her like the Flapper par excellence. But then off 237 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: screen when she did similar behaviors that somehows seems that 238 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: themed can't scandal us. So they tried to, Um, they 239 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: really tried to suggest that, like, this person is only 240 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: acting this way on screen and not that way off screen. 241 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: So when it became clear that like Clara Bou was 242 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: having lots of boyfriends and like going like she loved 243 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: hanging out with the USC football team, and that sort 244 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: of thing that that have caused more societal and anxiety. 245 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: But I think throughout Hollywood women have always had a 246 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: harder time of trying to keep their images simultaneously sexual 247 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: on screen and non sexual off screen. Yeah, I was 248 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: gonna ask whether or not you thought that Hollywood scales 249 00:14:55,200 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: are still even today more potentially damaging for female stars 250 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: were just male stars. I feel like, especially in terms 251 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: of fidelity, like if we find out that the whole 252 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: thing with you know, the build up to the Vanity 253 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: Fair piece that never happened about Gwyneth Paltrow, everyone wants 254 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: to hear that she's cheating on Chris Martin, and it's 255 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: just like this weird like we're just like salivating for 256 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: her to do something wrong. Yeah, totally no. And I think, 257 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: like trying to think of another example, so someone like 258 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Claire Dayanes who was the other woman with the crudup, 259 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: and Mary Louise Parker she didn't work in Hollywood for 260 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: several years after that because like both of their means 261 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: were kind of smeared. Um. Yeah, I think that it's 262 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: just like still as supposedly progressive as we are now 263 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: about women's sexuality, which you know, if you watch politics 264 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: over the last five years, clearly we're not there. Still 265 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: is this idea that a woman should like look like 266 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: they really want to have sex on the cover g Q, 267 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: but then not actually hav any sex. Well, what is it? 268 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: What does it say about us and about our cultural 269 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: relationship with sex that we are so and we have 270 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: always been so wrapped up in celebrity sex scandals. UM. 271 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: I would say, like anything, that there is this anxiety 272 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: about that there are people like freak out about shows 273 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: that it's something that we as a culture is still 274 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how we feel about it. And 275 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: so that continual anxiety about women's sexuality shows that this 276 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: is still something very much um in play and that, uh, 277 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: while there are different things that seem progressive about women's rights, 278 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: we still are hung up on the idea that a 279 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: woman should, uh should at heart beat like only want 280 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: to have sex with one man and that man is 281 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: her husband. It's a very like puritan ideal of female sexuality. Well, 282 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: we certainly have more questions for an Annie. Dr Peterson, 283 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: so many, so many different names by which to all you. 284 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: When we come right back from a quick break and 285 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: now back to the show, just not a curiosity. UM. 286 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: In your research, have you noticed whether or not this 287 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: is more of an American or Western centric kind of 288 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: culture of the obsession with a sex scandal or is 289 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: this something that you're going to see in tabloid culture 290 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: around the world. UM. I would say that it's the 291 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: obsession with sexual revelations, like that's definitely the case. There's 292 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: been a huge scandal recently in China about Chinese stars 293 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: and sexual revelations female ones. And but in Europe, I 294 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: think it works somewhat differently. UM. Like, I think that 295 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: when Ingrid Bergman left the United States after there was 296 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: huge hoopla and she went and worked in Italy for 297 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: the next fifty years. And you know, even though you're 298 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: at that time, you know, post World War Two, it 299 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: wasn't that a super or progressive Europe that we think 300 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: of today. There still is just more. I think there's 301 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: a larger understanding that somehow someone's sex life is their 302 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: private life, right, and even the fact, like if you 303 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: look at France, like, yes, they're always going to cover 304 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: the president's um sexual lives and the fact that they 305 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: have mistresses and that sort of thing. But even the 306 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: fact that they have a mistress, right, that makes it 307 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: like the fact that the president of France can have 308 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: a mistress somehow makes that at least speakable, like different 309 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: arrangements speakable in France. That makes sense. But I wonder, though, 310 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: is that is that more progressive, the fact that it's 311 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: like fine for the him to have a mistress, you 312 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: know what I mean, I would say that it's less 313 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: luck shamy. Yeah, I mean, I'm yeah. I don't think that, 314 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: like allowing a man to have many sexual partners is 315 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: necessarily progressive. But instead of making the woman kind of 316 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: fair the brunt of these these sexual scandals, it makes uh, 317 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: it makes it more of a conversation about what, like 318 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: the whole thing makes sense. Well, speaking of scandal and politicians, 319 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: this is the perfect time to transition to um, what 320 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: is honestly my TV guilty pleasure that I rarely tell 321 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: anyone that I watch. Uh, And that's Scandal. And it's 322 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: a show that you write about watch. Um. Yeah, I don't. 323 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm so conflicted about my my 324 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: scandal habit, but I definitely have one. Um. But you 325 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: wrote on your blog that it's quote a show that's 326 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: doing some of the most interesting network work in storytelling, 327 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: female desire, post feminism, race, and the intersections between all 328 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: of the above, which first of all makes me feel 329 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: a lot better about my Scandal habit. You know, there's 330 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: so many things going on on that show. Yeah, can 331 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about in the in the 332 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: fictional realm of Scandal and that shows what you mean 333 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: by all of those intersections going on. Yeah, well, I 334 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: actually think so the first season of Scandal, they did 335 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: a lot more in terms of solving like a single 336 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: scandal each episode. You remember this, Yeah, much more episodic 337 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: in terms of like, okay, so here's a politician who 338 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: is gay, right, and how do we deal with the 339 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: fact that there is clear proof and like a newspaper 340 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: is starting to reveal it. So how does Olivia Pope 341 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: and the rest of the team fix a scandal? And that, 342 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: to me, I mean that is super super fascinating, this 343 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: idea of like fixers out there who you know, it's 344 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: the same as George Claney's role in Michael Plaine, And 345 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: they had tons of fixers in classic Hollywood who like 346 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: Anytime Star got wasted, drove home drunk and ran into 347 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: a telephone poll that sort of thing would go in 348 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: there and fix the situation, and I mean that's just 349 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: so much harder now because because there's paparazzi line the 350 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: stars everywhere, But that's sort of kind of defense, playing 351 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: defense against things that could come out and change the 352 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: image of the star. I think that that, uh, showing 353 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: the kind of the the innards of that production, of 354 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: that that process makes people think more about how these 355 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: things work. I mean, it's fictionalized, but at the same time, 356 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: just showing that there are five people who are who 357 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: are doing all of these things to make sure that 358 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: the release of a piece of information goes smoothing. And 359 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: then I mean, I think that the show, I mean, 360 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: the show really got its wheels when it started just 361 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: focusing on the relationship between Olivia and Fits. But at 362 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: the same time, that's when it lost some of the 363 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: more interesting focuses, like the more interesting emphasis on what 364 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: was going on with fixing scandals that didn't have anything 365 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: to do with actually Olivia. Right. I was actually sick 366 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: earlier this week, so I got up on a scandal, 367 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: so I've kind of been thinking about it and not 368 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: to you know, to give spoilers or anything to people 369 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: listening who might not be caught up, but the the 370 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: intense focus on her relationship with Fits, I feel like 371 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: almost undercuts the feminism of Olivia Pope's role, which is frustrating, yes, 372 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: because her identity really becomes subsumed in this romance when 373 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: otherwise it's clear that she's like this ball busting, take 374 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: no prisoners woman, right, and that who has in the past. 375 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: It's not that she's not a sexual person, right, She's 376 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: had relationships and she's had sexual encounters with people who 377 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: aren't Fits, And but she just becomes so passive and 378 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: weak when it comes to his power over her. I think, 379 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: like the the identity of a female showrunner and a 380 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: female showrunner of color is really I mean, I like, 381 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: it's important to have people like shann Himes working in 382 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: the industry. But then also how discussions of race, Like 383 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't really until the end of season two that 384 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: there was any invocation that the real scandal if it 385 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: came out that the president was having an affair with 386 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: one of his former staffers, wouldn't be that it would 387 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: be that like he was white and she was black, 388 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: Like that would amplify that scandal so much more. And 389 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: they just because the show really trucks and kind of 390 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: a post race color blind world. The fact that it 391 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: took that long to be invoked and that it hasn't 392 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: really been brought up again, I don't. I don't know 393 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: how progress of that is either. Unfortunately, scandal can't be 394 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: everything for us as we might want it to be. Um, well, 395 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: outside of fictionalized television, how do you think celebrity scandal 396 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: intersects with feminism, particularly sort of in this gossip air 397 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in where so many of our feminist 398 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: leaning blogs do discuss scandal. Yeah, well, you know, I 399 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: wrote this article for Bitch Magazine that's called Ken's Celebrity 400 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: Gossip Ever be feminist? And my thesis is basically that 401 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: if you practice academic celebrity gossip, then yes, because if 402 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: you're looking instead of looking at someone who you think, Um, 403 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a good example. The example 404 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: I uses that when Blake Lively started dating Leonardo DiCaprio, 405 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: this is several years ago, I was like, uh, I 406 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: can't believe it. Like I was just really angry at 407 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: Blake Lively, and so instead of like you know, splut 408 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: shaming her or making front of the fact that she 409 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: has no talent. I sat there and I thought, for 410 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: a second, Okay, why am I reacting this way to 411 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: her dating Leonardo DiCaprio, And I had everything to do 412 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: with how Leonardo DiCaprio resonates with me as someone who 413 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: fell in love with him and Romeo and Juliette when 414 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: I was fifteen years old, right, and how I the 415 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: sort of relationship that I want him to be in 416 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: and the story of women that I think deserves him 417 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, right, Obviously I don't know any 418 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: I mean, he has clearly betrayed me on that get 419 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. But just basically doing 420 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of analysis of my relationship to his 421 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: star image, I could see why I was reacting in 422 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: a negative way to it to another female. So, like, 423 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: I think the blogs that do a lot of just 424 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: like body snarking and that sort of thing. I mean, 425 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: it's not feminist, Like there's no way to there's no 426 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: way to talk about that um with Like, there's no 427 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: way to so what I'm looking for and defend that. 428 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: But I do think that something like on a lot 429 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: of feminist sites, what they're talking through is basically what 430 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: I do, So what about that star is interesting? What 431 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: like why so like when Amy Poehler and Will Arnett 432 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: broke up last year, Like why is there such a 433 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: heartfelt reaction into that? So instead of just like I mean, 434 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: I think that it oftentimes gossip has democrated this just 435 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: a bunch of women like screaming in a corner or 436 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: something like that. But I think that there's real thoughtful 437 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: work going on about why we love the people we 438 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: love him, why we just like people were just like yeah, 439 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: and and that very point of gossip, celebrity gossip often 440 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: being pegged is just this frivolous woman thing as any 441 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: kind of like female fandom in a way often is 442 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: like taken down a notch, is just being like too 443 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: girly and who cares? Um. I appreciate the you know, 444 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: the taking the time to actually pause and look into 445 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: it and analyze it. Um. I was actually reading last 446 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: night that You're a Hairpin Scandals of Old Hollywood piece 447 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: on Hetty Lamar, who up until I read that, I 448 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: had just thought of her as this you know, stem 449 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: heroine who was a really beautiful woman of old Hollywood 450 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: who then invented this thing that basically gave us WiFi 451 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: now and lo and behold, there's this tragic backstory and 452 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: it was all sort of like tied up in sexuality 453 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: and gender and how we perceive we as the public 454 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: perceive and consume women's bodies, and um, I don't know, 455 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: it was like it was. It was very enlightening, and 456 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: I feel like that's we could use more of that, 457 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: I think in celebrity gossip. Yeah. Well, and the other 458 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: thing is that talking about sports players is celebrity gossip, 459 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: you know, like like sports talk is celebrity gossip. It's 460 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: just masculinized, and so I really try to emphasize the 461 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: fact that, you know, this is not something that only 462 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: women do. It's not something that is exclusive to celebrities. 463 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: It's just a type of talk about prominent figures. Well. 464 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: Tying everything back to the book that you're working on, Um, 465 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: do you have a favorite classic Holly would scandal? I mean, 466 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: I really like the Robert Mitchum scandal because it's because 467 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: it was the first scandal to kind of rupture what 468 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: had been going on, the cover upset had been going 469 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: on in classic Hollywood. He was on This is again nineteen, 470 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: he was half on contract, so he had like a 471 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: contract with a studio, but then also kind of was 472 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: his doing his own thing. And so what that made 473 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: it possible is that he first was like when he 474 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: got caught, was like, screw it, I'm going to jail. 475 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: My career is over, like very frank about it. Um. 476 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: And then the studio people got to him and he 477 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: was like, okay, all right, I'll try to like basically 478 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: met good. So while he was in jail, he allowed 479 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: photographers from like magazine to come in and take pictures 480 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: of him. So there's all these great photos of him 481 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: like sweeping his cell in jail. And then he gets 482 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: out and Herbert Mission was like this, like he just 483 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: looks like a dastardly dude, and you know, he's just 484 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: like these eyes and scars and stuff. But then he 485 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: sits for these interviews with like Photoplay and other fan 486 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: magazines where he's like, I just want to go fishing 487 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: with my son's and like, my wife has been so supportive, 488 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: and it was made very clear. And then five six 489 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: years afterwards that that was all how much of a 490 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: first that was. But at the time it's just so 491 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: performative what was going on with scandal. But I mean, 492 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: for me, I like all of them. I think some 493 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, why do you write a scandals 494 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: of closet? Probably what about Robert Redford? There was no 495 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: scandal there. I was like, I mean sure, every star, though, 496 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: has a way that they had to make their image 497 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: into something that wasn't scandalous. So anything like I crite 498 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: and call him on any star and make it interesting. 499 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: I mean it's even possible though, these days, with as 500 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: much like exposure as stars get to to closely control 501 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: their image to the degree that they might want. I mean, 502 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: is scandal avoidable unless you are like legit, you know, 503 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: just on the up and up, always doing everything that 504 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: you should I think. I mean, Angelina Jolie should have 505 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: had at least fifty scandals in the last ten years, 506 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: and she has so definitely played that game that I like, 507 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm just in awe of her. Um, she's like the 508 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, the one that I don't have enough distance from. 509 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, we played that so well, amazing. 510 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: So everything from the way that they managed the revelation 511 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: of her relationship with Brad Pitt too, the adoption and 512 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: then giving birth to all of these children, the fact 513 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: that they're still not married. Um. And then recently with 514 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: basically you know, with her doublemossectomy, she that could have 515 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: been the discussion could have been about now she's no 516 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: longer a sexifon right, like she's her breast was so 517 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: fundamental to her sexuality. But the way that she got 518 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: in front of the story and wrote this New York 519 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: Times editorial, like she made the story about her sacrifice 520 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: and her trying to be a model for other women. 521 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: So definitely, And now like, if you talk about the 522 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: loss of her breasts as any in any sort of 523 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: denigrating tone, you're a horrible person. And the way that 524 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: she played that made that possible. So yes, I do 525 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: think that it's possible to play the game. Also, I mean, 526 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: if you don't live in Hollywood or New York, it's 527 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: super possible. Like Julia Roberts, I think just got set up, 528 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: but everything moved to Tas in Mexico and she has 529 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: so much control over her image. Um, well, so when 530 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: when is the book coming out? When can people go 531 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: pick it up? It's coming out at the end of September, 532 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: and that's from Plume Books, which is an imprint and 533 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: Penguin and there's also there's a pre order right now 534 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: on Amazon, so if you really want to get in line, UM, 535 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: but I'll be I'll be writing various things in the 536 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: in the mid term, but I'm really excited for it. Yeah, 537 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: how would you for um? For listeners? How would you 538 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: describe the book? What could they expect from from this? 539 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: So it it's all new content. So there are a 540 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: couple of people featured in it who I wrote previous 541 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: Scandals of Classic Collywood about, so someone like Montgomery Clift 542 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: or Dorothy Dandridge, but it's much more expanded and contextualized 543 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: for those people. And then there's a ton of people 544 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: that I've never written anything about on Scandals of Classic Collywood. 545 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: And it starts with Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks, which 546 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: is the Hollywood's first couple who divorced both of their 547 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: spouses so they could be together, and how they managed 548 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: to not make that scandalous is just a fascinating story. 549 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: And it goes all the way through James Dean uh 550 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: and it I think there are sixteen different stars um 551 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: that I cover in each chapter as its own star. 552 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: But you know they're the coupled with other stars who 553 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: were dealing with similar things. So like um, James d 554 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: and Marlon Rando and Montgomery Clift are are all of 555 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: one part because they were all dealing with how to 556 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: be these kind of a motive masculine but new type 557 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: of masculine stars in hollywooden men in the early fifties. Well, 558 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: speaking about creating new content for your book, something that 559 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: kind of blew me away and looking over your writing 560 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: is that you do you sleep like you right, so 561 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: you write so much? How do you have time to 562 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: do all this? Uh? Well, I mean the thing that 563 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: is always important to make visible is that I don't 564 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: have children. So I think that a lot of that 565 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: that how much I write is due to the fact that, like, 566 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't have other obligations outside of um, being a 567 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: writer and being a teacher. But I you know, what 568 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: I always say is that writing is a muscle, and 569 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the more that you use it, the more in shape 570 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: that it is. So when I'm in good writing shape, 571 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: like I can sit down and just write like all afternoon. Um. 572 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: And then also I really like writing different and different 573 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: tones and for different audiences, So it's really productive for 574 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: me too instead of just always writing my book or 575 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: always writing my blog post or always writing an academic 576 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: thing to switch it up and and keep nimble in 577 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: that way. Well, and I hope this isn't a weird compliment, 578 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: but if writing is a muscle, you totally have a 579 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:33,479 Speaker 1: six pack. That's the best compliment I've ever seen. Well, 580 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: in the meantime, where can folks go to find more 581 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: about you and all of your fantastic writing and insights 582 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: into celebrity gossip and more. They can google my blogs 583 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: celebrity gossip academic style. But also I'm on Twitter and 584 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: my handle is and Helen so A N N E 585 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: H E L E N and that's basically where you 586 00:34:53,880 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: can find all sorts of things about me. So thanks 587 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: again so much too, and Helen Peterson for taking the 588 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: time to talk to us. Also a congratulations to an 589 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: Annie she also refers to herself because she is now 590 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: heading out of academia and is going to become a 591 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: full time features writer for BuzzFeed, So definitely keep an 592 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: eye out for her articles. I'm sure they will be amazing, 593 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 1: as his all of her writing. You can follow her 594 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: at and Helen That's Anne with any and check out 595 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: her work at and Helen Peterson dot com and Caroline, 596 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna watch some scandal. You're gonna watch 597 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: scandal with me? Nope, sorry, no, I just not don't 598 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: do it. Not my thing. I will have to continue 599 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: watching it in guilty isolation. Don't be guilty. Enjoy it. Yeah, 600 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I do, honestly. I tend to watch 601 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: it in the background while I'm meticulously, uh stock my dishwasher. 602 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of my weekend thing. So with that, we 603 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. What do you think about 604 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: celebrity gassip Scandal? Is anybody out there watching scandal as well? 605 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: Please help me not feel quite so guilty. Mom. Stuff 606 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can email us, 607 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of emails to share with 608 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, I've got a note here from 609 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: Christopher about our revenge porn episode from a little while back, 610 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: and he said, hey, guys, I just wanted to send 611 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: a quick note. I don't know anyone personally who this 612 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: has happened to, this being revenge porn, but I've heard 613 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: of reports of certain hackers slash stalkers who have used 614 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 1: software to essentially override a user's computer camera to take 615 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: discrete photos of the user without their knowledge. This is 616 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: actually one of the key reasons that the MacBook and 617 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: I'm at cameras won't operate unless that green light next 618 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: to it goes on. Unfortunately, this wasn't incorporated into the 619 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: iPhone or iPad. I'm not doing a value judgment for 620 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 1: people who choose to take these photos to each their own. 621 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's possible to essentially have your life 622 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: ruined by one of these sites without even confiding in 623 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: a date or a lover. So good to be aware 624 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: of that. Too. Creepy, Yes, so creepy, So very creepy. 625 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: So thanks Christopher for giving us a heads up on that. 626 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: I have a hilariously subject line email here from Kathleen 627 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: about our Women in Cars episode. The subject line, by 628 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: the way, is I am the Caroline of my relationship, 629 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: to which I say, I know, write me too, Uh. 630 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: She says, I just listened to your men and Cars 631 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: episode and was struck by some strange similarities between Caroline 632 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: and myself. Like Caroline, I am the driver in my 633 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: heterosexual relationship. My partner prefers to navigate, which is helpful 634 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: as I have no sense of direction. I am also 635 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: emphatically not the dishwasher. The coincidence does not stop there, however, 636 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: as I too drove jeeps before recently switching to a 637 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: smaller Sedan, and I too was recently ignosed with hashimotos, 638 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: which your podcast definitely helped me understand, as well as 639 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: explain to others. When close friends were confused by the 640 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: vague symptoms I tried to explain, I sent them the 641 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: link to your podcast. I just thought these coincidences were 642 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: too funny not to relay to you both. So thank you, Kathleen. 643 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: I feel like we're like, you're like bizarro Elaine to 644 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: me or something. I mean, is Kathleen just your your 645 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: pen name than I'm ailing into. I wrote you this email, Christen, 646 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: because I just wanted to talk about myself somewhere alright, 647 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: So thank you for your letter, Kathleen and anyone else 648 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: who wants to send us letters Mom Stuff at Discovery 649 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send them, or if 650 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: you want to reach it out to us on social 651 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: Also check out all of our podcast blogs and viggios. 652 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: There's one place to go. It's stuff Mom Never Told 653 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 654 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com three