Speaker 1: How can someone get out of the trap of people pleasing?
Speaker 2: The difficulty is not necessarily just with the word no,
Speaker 2: it's with all the feelings that come with it.
Speaker 1: Julie, you are a clinical psychologist and one of the
Speaker 1: original therapists to discuss mental health issues on social media.
Speaker 1: Your first book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?
Speaker 1: Is an international bestseller, and your new book is Open
Speaker 1: When a companion for life's twists and turns? Is there
Speaker 1: a way to turn comparison into something that's positive and
Speaker 1: useful in our life?
Speaker 2: If your comparison turns into you feeling terrible, that's no
Speaker 2: good for you. Whereas if the comparison turns into a
Speaker 2: plan of action, that's a pretty good skill to have.
Speaker 1: It's basically turning comparison into admiration and education.
Speaker 2: If you're not asserting your own desires or wishes or
Speaker 2: needs and then resenting your partner or your friend fulfilling
Speaker 2: the space for you.
Speaker 3: And then it comes back to, Okay, well what do
Speaker 3: you want?
Speaker 1: I'm Rady Wukiah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
Speaker 1: we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
Speaker 1: for raw, unfielded conversations celebrate vulnerability and allow you to
Speaker 1: tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Julie,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here on a really
Speaker 1: good cry. You're a clinical psychologist and one of the
Speaker 1: original therapists to discuss mental health issues on social media.
Speaker 1: You've built a social media community of over ten million people,
Speaker 1: which is incredible because it shows how so many people
Speaker 1: want to grow and be better. Your first book, Why
Speaker 1: Has Nobody Told Me This Before, is an international bestseller
Speaker 1: and has solved over a million copies.
Speaker 4: That is incredible.
Speaker 1: And your new book is Open When a Companion for
Speaker 1: Life's twists and turns. And honestly, I love the name
Speaker 1: of the book and as soon as I opened it up,
Speaker 1: I was like, this is like an emergency talkit for
Speaker 1: anybody at any stage of their life. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for writing the book, and thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here.
Speaker 4: I'm so excited.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here too, So
Speaker 3: thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: So tell me how.
Speaker 1: I just want to start off by asking how did
Speaker 1: you begin this journey like one obviously becoming a clinical psychologist,
Speaker 1: but then to take that information and share it online.
Speaker 1: What connected you to and made you want to go
Speaker 1: into that platform.
Speaker 3: I think in some ways.
Speaker 2: So I worked in the NHS for about ten years,
Speaker 2: and when I had two of my now three children,
Speaker 2: I realized I couldn't do it all, not well anyway.
Speaker 2: So I decided to leave the NHS, take a break
Speaker 2: from that for a while, and run just a really
Speaker 2: small private practice, mostly so that I could control my
Speaker 2: own time and work that around the children and stuff.
Speaker 2: And it was during that time that I was seeing
Speaker 2: people who were coming along who didn't necessarily need long term,
Speaker 2: in depth therapy, but once they had the educational stuff
Speaker 2: that went with therapy, so learning about how their mind works,
Speaker 2: how they could impact on their own mood and their relationships,
Speaker 2: they found some of that information so empowering. They were
Speaker 2: raring to go, and they were kind of saying, do
Speaker 2: you know what, I think I'm going to be all right?
Speaker 2: I think I can cope with what comes ahead, comes up,
Speaker 2: you know what life throws at me. So I just
Speaker 2: kept saying to my poor husband, Matt, they should be
Speaker 2: more available. People shouldn't have to pay to come and
Speaker 2: see someone like me to find out how their own
Speaker 2: mind works. Right, So he kind of said, well, go on, then,
Speaker 2: make it available. Oh god, I don't think you're going
Speaker 2: to solve that for me. So yeah, we made a
Speaker 2: few really terrible YouTube videos and stuff, and at the
Speaker 2: same time, then this huge rise in short form content
Speaker 2: was happening, and maps go with TikTok and there were
Speaker 2: loads of kids on there. There was lots of kind
Speaker 2: of dancing and comedy and stuff, but then there were
Speaker 2: also these people expressing their distress and about their mental health.
Speaker 2: But there didn't seem to be any decent education in
Speaker 2: response to that. So he said, well, why don't we
Speaker 2: do some bite size videos? And my initial response was
Speaker 2: absolutely not. We will just get trolled out of there
Speaker 2: or people just won't listen. You know, how can I
Speaker 2: be How can I give anything that's really useful in
Speaker 2: sixty seconds these things that I would take half an
Speaker 2: hour to talk about in therapy. But it became quite
Speaker 2: a creative challenge. We decided to just let's give it
Speaker 2: go and if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't
Speaker 2: work out. And it worked out within yea. Within like
Speaker 2: a week or two, there were just people emailing and
Speaker 2: contacting us saying, what's the next step to this?
Speaker 3: What if I apply this to that and can you
Speaker 3: do a vide on this?
Speaker 2: And we realize, oh my gosh, this is reaching real
Speaker 2: people and impacting them enough that they're willing to, you know,
Speaker 2: get in contact and ask more questions.
Speaker 3: So we just carried on.
Speaker 1: Wow, well, Matt sounds like a great supporter in everything
Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, it's very nice to have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely the two of us.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he still has his own business, but
Speaker 2: we kind of do that in the evenings.
Speaker 3: What's put the children to bed? Do? We then kind
Speaker 3: of make videos and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It's also so sweet that you guys get to do
Speaker 1: something where you know, you're you know, it's an active service.
Speaker 1: You're helping other people together. Can I imagine that even
Speaker 1: for your relationship. Is such a beautiful thing to have
Speaker 1: between you, where your spare time is spent helping other
Speaker 1: people together.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And really, because I'm quite a sort of introvert, shy person,
Speaker 2: I was really comfortable doing the one on one in
Speaker 2: the therapy room, doing what I knew I was good at.
Speaker 2: So all this idea of kind of being a very
Speaker 2: public person was way out of my comfort zone. And
Speaker 2: so the thing that really made it happen was the
Speaker 2: real lifezation that with all this feedback coming through that
Speaker 2: it's having a positive impact. So whenever I was a
Speaker 2: bit tired of it, we kind of said, well, when
Speaker 2: we're not having a positive impact anymore, will start.
Speaker 4: Yes, but here we are.
Speaker 3: How many that was we started in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: That's amazing, congratulations, what a feet And really would love
Speaker 1: to go through your new book because I think there's
Speaker 1: so many incredible moments in them. I picked out a
Speaker 1: few of the areas that connected with me and just
Speaker 1: for everybody to give context. The book open when essentially
Speaker 1: goes through different points in your life where you might
Speaker 1: need to open the book. So whether it's when you
Speaker 1: feel unwelcome and want to fit in, when they don't
Speaker 1: love you back, when you doubt yourself and want to
Speaker 1: feel more confident, when you're overwhelmed.
Speaker 4: These are just a couple of the topics that you've
Speaker 4: covered in there.
Speaker 1: But I want to start with when you compare yourself
Speaker 1: and come up shorts because I think that it is
Speaker 1: something all of us do at some point in life,
Speaker 1: if not through our whole entire life. Well, the first
Speaker 1: thing I thought when I read it was can compare
Speaker 1: Garson be healthy in some way, Like, is there a
Speaker 1: way to turn comparison into something that's positive and useful
Speaker 1: in our life?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I think that's a major key to why I
Speaker 2: included that chapter in the book, And because it's something
Speaker 2: that happens to everybody. We all experience it because it's
Speaker 2: what humans do. And yet when you go on social media,
Speaker 2: the thing you see most is just stop comparing yourself.
Speaker 3: Just don't do it because it makes you feel bad.
Speaker 2: And it's sort of like, well, if we do that naturally,
Speaker 2: that's because there's a function to it, and there really is. Right,
Speaker 2: if you never assessed what other people around you are doing,
Speaker 2: or what kind of morals they have or how they're living,
Speaker 2: then you would become a pretty terrible community member, right.
Speaker 2: And so our ability to compare ourselves to the people
Speaker 2: that we live amongst and ensure that we're, you know,
Speaker 2: doing the right thing or keeping in in line with
Speaker 2: that community and their own values, then it makes us
Speaker 2: a decent human being to live around. And I think
Speaker 2: what happens is when comparison becomes detrimental is when we're
Speaker 2: making the wrong comparisons. So often, when we're comparing ourselves
Speaker 2: to the wrong people or for the wrong reasons, or
Speaker 2: we're comparing something that can't really be changed, so you know,
Speaker 2: you might see what on social media, it's usually you're
Speaker 2: comparing yourself to someone that you wouldn't have even known
Speaker 2: existed before social media, right, someone who's not on a
Speaker 2: level playing field, has a completely different start in life,
Speaker 2: completely different resources and set up, and usually the part
Speaker 2: you're seeing of them is a very curated image that's
Speaker 2: not even representative of what they're really like when they
Speaker 2: wake up in the morning, all of those sort of things.
Speaker 2: So it's just not a decent, fair comparison to make.
Speaker 2: And you often comparing things that can't be changed, you know,
Speaker 2: like I don't know your personality or certain talents or
Speaker 2: how you look or those kind of things, and so
Speaker 2: that is going to lead to really dark places or
Speaker 2: you know, some time. Other comparisons that can be really
Speaker 2: unhelpful as well, I think, are comparing yourself to people
Speaker 2: that you're supposed to be in a relationship with, be
Speaker 2: that family, friends, partners. As soon as you do that,
Speaker 2: as soon as you start to compare yourself to someone
Speaker 2: that you're trying to have some sort of relationship with,
Speaker 2: you kind of put a scoreboard between you two, and
Speaker 2: that means then whenever you experience a victory that's maybe
Speaker 2: seen as a loss on their part, or whenever they
Speaker 2: experience a personal victory, then you feel bad about it
Speaker 2: or you feel like that means that you're somehow less
Speaker 2: than them more that kind of thing, and that's so
Speaker 2: disruptive to the relationship, right because you're suddenly in competition
Speaker 2: as opposed to being on the same team and nurturing
Speaker 2: each other and supporting each other.
Speaker 1: So many things came into my head while you were
Speaker 1: saying all those incredible things. The first thing was, it's
Speaker 1: so interesting, isn't it, how we as humans will fixate
Speaker 1: on the things that we can't control over the things
Speaker 1: that we can control, And alway, think about that because
Speaker 1: when you say, you know, there are so many things
Speaker 1: where you're comparing yourself, you know, against people or situations
Speaker 1: that you were never put in, like you didn't have
Speaker 1: the same start as that person did. And so many
Speaker 1: times we're fixated and can completely obsess over these parts
Speaker 1: of our life that we can't control, which takes away
Speaker 1: all the energy to actually be able to put into
Speaker 1: the parts of our life that we can control and
Speaker 1: feel good about. And you know, one I wonder why
Speaker 1: we have that psychology because in my mind, I'm like,
Speaker 1: when it makes more sense for us to focus on
Speaker 1: the things that we feel like we can control and
Speaker 1: that we can change in our life. So why do
Speaker 1: you think it is that we end up doing the
Speaker 1: opposite and kind of put ourselves in a position where
Speaker 1: we actually feel helpless.
Speaker 2: I think we just have that ability and that tendency
Speaker 2: to compare, But your brain only has so much information
Speaker 2: to go on, and so it won't necessarily be as
Speaker 2: refined as only comparing against things that are helpful, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's where we have to sort of be aware
Speaker 2: of it and take.
Speaker 3: Of our attention in that way.
Speaker 2: And so when you know you're comparing yourself in a
Speaker 2: way that is having a negative impact, then shifting the
Speaker 2: sort of trajectory of your attention towards things that are
Speaker 2: helpful and because actually you can use that skill to
Speaker 2: be able to compare to your advantage hugely, you know,
Speaker 2: if you I don't know, let's say you want to
Speaker 2: get better at public speaking, and you know, if you
Speaker 2: sort of compare your just beginning in your journey and
Speaker 2: you compare yourself to someone who's towards the latter end
Speaker 2: of their journey, so they've mastered it all, they've had
Speaker 2: all the achievements, and you make that comparison, that's generally
Speaker 2: going to be fairly unhelpful because you're going to feel
Speaker 2: like you're just it's unachievable, it's so far to go.
Speaker 2: Whereas if you take someone who might be, you know,
Speaker 2: half a dozen steps ahead of you, and they do
Speaker 2: something well that you are specifically trying to improve on,
Speaker 2: then you can hone in on that very concrete, specific
Speaker 2: thing and you can analyze it so you can kind
Speaker 2: of earn that sort of envy into inspiration.
Speaker 3: Really, so, how do they do that thing really well
Speaker 3: that I want to do really well?
Speaker 2: And you can break it down and you can be
Speaker 2: very concrete about it, and then you turn that comparison
Speaker 2: into an action. And I think that's the real key
Speaker 2: is if your comparison turns into you feeling terrible, culling
Speaker 2: up on the sofa, wishing you as someone else, that's
Speaker 2: no good for you orreas if the comparison turns into
Speaker 2: a plan of action so that's actually going to improve
Speaker 2: your life, then that's a pretty good skill to have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I was thinking while you were saying
Speaker 1: that that it's basically turning comparison into admiration and education,
Speaker 1: Like you're turning it into Okay, how can I really
Speaker 1: admire this person? Actually, what I'm feeling is admiration because
Speaker 1: their skill set is incredible and I want to be
Speaker 1: at that level. But then how can I get to
Speaker 1: that level? It's education, so I also learn from that
Speaker 1: person and turn them into a teacher rather than somebody
Speaker 1: that I am trying to become. How can I also
Speaker 1: become just as good as them by learning from the
Speaker 1: steps that they've taken because they are so far ahead
Speaker 1: of me in that game, you know. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: comparison can get to a very toxix stage, which is envy,
Speaker 1: and I think there's jealousy, which is where you're like,
Speaker 1: you know, I really want to be like that person,
Speaker 1: and I think they're great and I want to be
Speaker 1: like them, But then envy is kind of like I
Speaker 1: want to be like them, but I also don't want
Speaker 1: them to have it. And if there is someone who
Speaker 1: is at their stage of feeling quite envious about other
Speaker 1: people and feeling really down about their life, what are
Speaker 1: some practical steps that people can take to turn away
Speaker 1: from that envy or really train their mind away from
Speaker 1: that mindset.
Speaker 2: I think that often happens when people become slightly detached
Speaker 2: from their own values, or maybe they just aren't really
Speaker 2: aware of what those are. So you're so focused on
Speaker 2: looking to others for how you should be living your
Speaker 2: life or what you should be working towards, and without
Speaker 2: really questioning whether that's going to be any good for you.
Speaker 2: There's a really great exercise that I used to do
Speaker 2: in therapy with people that I continue to do on
Speaker 2: a regular base myself, and that's because it's just really
Speaker 2: centering and really helpful, and it's really simple. So you
Speaker 2: can get a piece of paper and you just split
Speaker 2: the piece of paper up into lots of different boxes,
Speaker 2: and each one is a different area of your life.
Speaker 2: So you might have health, marriage, parenting, friendship, education, lifelong learning,
Speaker 2: whatever it is, all of those different things, all the
Speaker 2: different parts of your life, and then in each box
Speaker 2: you fill in some words about what matters most to
Speaker 2: you in that area of your life. So not you
Speaker 2: what you want to get, not what you want to
Speaker 2: happen to you, but how you want to show up
Speaker 2: the kind of person you want to be in that
Speaker 2: area of your life in good times and bad, and
Speaker 2: then from there you get this idea of it might
Speaker 2: be a few words or sentences, but it's this kind
Speaker 2: of vision of how you want to be living.
Speaker 3: So you kind of rate then each box.
Speaker 2: I would rate it out of ten, really crude, So
Speaker 2: like you know, ten out of ten is the most
Speaker 2: important thing to me, zero not at all. And you
Speaker 2: get all those scores and then you rate them again,
Speaker 2: but this time how much I feel I'm living in
Speaker 2: line with those values that I've just set out in
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks or the last month. And
Speaker 2: then what you get is these scores that show you
Speaker 2: which way to put your attention. So if something if
Speaker 2: you scored something as ten out of ten important to you,
Speaker 2: let's say your health, it's ten out of ten important
Speaker 2: to you, but you've then put it as two out
Speaker 2: of ten in terms of how much you're living in
Speaker 2: line with the values you just set out. Then it's
Speaker 2: just a really good indication of this area of your
Speaker 2: life needs your attention. And I think you have to
Speaker 2: be careful not to turn it into self criticism.
Speaker 3: Yes, because the.
Speaker 2: Key is that Okay, there are so many different areas
Speaker 2: of your life. You can't score ten out of ten
Speaker 2: on everything all of the time. So life will pull
Speaker 2: you in different directions. So let's say if I have
Speaker 2: a big project on at work or you know, releasing
Speaker 2: the book things like that, I get really busy and
Speaker 2: there's lots going on and probably not doing all the
Speaker 2: sort of parenting things that I want to be doing
Speaker 2: at that time, and so that score might go down,
Speaker 2: and this one might be really high.
Speaker 3: But that's just an indication of me to.
Speaker 2: Go, Okay, now I know where I need to go
Speaker 2: for the next few months and just really nurture this
Speaker 2: side of my life and health and things like that
Speaker 2: might come up as well. So it just enables you
Speaker 2: to just keep not necessarily balanced, because that suggests that
Speaker 2: you're kind of everything's perfect. It's more of a harmony
Speaker 2: of movement or just being aware of where you're being
Speaker 2: pulled away from that matters to you so that you
Speaker 2: can return to it. And so when we look at
Speaker 2: that in terms of envy, I think we can easily
Speaker 2: get caught up in envy without realizing that that thing
Speaker 2: that looks shiny and great, maybe it isn't all it's
Speaker 2: cracked up to be. But also maybe it doesn't even
Speaker 2: feature on our own values list. You can get caught
Speaker 2: up in a feeling and then when you look at
Speaker 2: your values sometimes it can bring you back to center
Speaker 2: and make you realize, well, actually that was kind of
Speaker 2: not warranted or proportionate. It was just a moment of
Speaker 2: seeing something that looked pretty for a while or shiny
Speaker 2: and created that desire for a moment that doesn't really feature.
Speaker 1: Also, I think when you do thatctice, which by the way,
Speaker 1: I think is incredible, I think you then end up
Speaker 1: seeing where you feel disheartened in your life and where
Speaker 1: you feel like you feel disconnected. And often where we
Speaker 1: feel like we're failing in our own life is where
Speaker 1: we end up comparing ourselves to in other ways with
Speaker 1: other people.
Speaker 4: And so actually, if you.
Speaker 1: Focus on what do I feel discontent and in my
Speaker 1: life right now, because usually when you feel discontent is
Speaker 1: when you end up having negative thoughts or those envious
Speaker 1: or geedosis. That's how that's if I think about myself,
Speaker 1: those are the times that I felt I had those
Speaker 1: negative thoughts about other people. It's when I'm actually not
Speaker 1: focusing on the things that I want to not achieving,
Speaker 1: the things that I want to putting in, the energy
Speaker 1: in the places I want to, being distracted in the
Speaker 1: spaces where I shouldn't be, and then I feel disappointed
Speaker 1: with myself. And because of that, I then see other
Speaker 1: people succeeding in areas, but I also don't see the
Speaker 1: work that they're putting in and the time that they're
Speaker 1: putting in and the energy they're putting into the right
Speaker 1: areas in their life. And so for me, it's always
Speaker 1: been a good indication of when I feel envy or
Speaker 1: jealousy or anything like that, where am I feeling discontent
Speaker 1: in my own life?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a real sort of misconception
Speaker 2: out there that when you have an uncomfortable emotion that
Speaker 2: you're supposed to get rid of it, or that it
Speaker 2: says something about you that you're even feeling it, And
Speaker 2: it doesn't is information, you know, it's your brain saying,
Speaker 2: hang on, look at this for a minute. And so
Speaker 2: if we're willing to that's a lot of what happens
Speaker 2: in therapy actually is taking people from judging themselves for
Speaker 2: even experiencing an emotion to just letting go of the
Speaker 2: judgment and then turning back towards that feeling with curiosity,
Speaker 2: wasn't that interesting that feeling came up? What's going on there?
Speaker 2: What's the context around that? And so, like you say,
Speaker 2: whether it's envy or jealousy or anything else, you're then
Speaker 2: free to look at Okay, well, does that indicate that
Speaker 2: there's something I need to work on for myself? So
Speaker 2: that I would feel a bit better about that? And Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just so so much more productive to connect with
Speaker 2: emotions in that way rather than try to numb them
Speaker 2: or judge ourselves for having them. They're not who we are,
Speaker 2: They're an experience, and so when we're willing to look
Speaker 2: at them in that way, it's so much easier to
Speaker 2: learn from them and use all the advantages that they
Speaker 2: bring us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said this in the book, and I really
Speaker 1: liked it. You said, resentment is not a reflection of
Speaker 1: what the world owes you, it's a sign of what
Speaker 1: you need to work on. And that just it's like
Speaker 1: the perfect conclusion to what we've just been speaking about.
Speaker 1: Resentment is not a reflection of what the world owes you.
Speaker 1: It's a sign of what you need to work on,
Speaker 1: and as soon as you start thinking about life in
Speaker 1: that way, it just constantly.
Speaker 4: Comes back to you.
Speaker 1: I think that's sometimes when we get stuck in victim mindset too,
Speaker 1: where you're like, this is wrong in my life, and
Speaker 1: this is wrong in my life, and this person did
Speaker 1: this to me. And actually most of those things are
Speaker 1: coming into your life for you to learn a lesson
Speaker 1: about you. Yeah, and as soon as you if you
Speaker 1: constantly come back to that narrative, not saying that you
Speaker 1: have to be, like you said, not judgmental in yourself,
Speaker 1: but every experience is teaching you a lesson, whether it's
Speaker 1: happening to you or whether you're creating that experience, it's
Speaker 1: all there for that purpose.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that was beautiful.
Speaker 1: The next one that really, you know, shouted out to
Speaker 1: me was when your friends are not your friends.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so open when.
Speaker 1: Your friends are not your friends? How do you know
Speaker 1: when it's time to let go of a friendship? Like,
Speaker 1: do you have clear signs in your eyes where you're like,
Speaker 1: these are the signs where you know what this friendship
Speaker 1: is probably no longer useful in your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I think this is a big one, and
Speaker 2: actually something I've been asked about a lot since putting
Speaker 2: it into the book. Is that we were kind of
Speaker 2: taught as kids, you know, friends are forever, that sort
Speaker 2: of thing that if it's a you know, a perfect friendship,
Speaker 2: it will last forever, it will always be good, there
Speaker 2: will never be ups and downs or difficulties. And the
Speaker 2: truth is that people change as they grow and move
Speaker 2: through different chapters of their life. And when I talked
Speaker 2: about that values exercise, the reason I do that on
Speaker 2: a fairly regular bait, you know, every few months or so,
Speaker 2: it's because values changed depending on what you're going through
Speaker 2: in your life at that point. Those sorts of things
Speaker 2: like changes in your values and what matters to you
Speaker 2: also changes friendships and relationships from both sides.
Speaker 3: So I think this is.
Speaker 2: A it feels like a new area of conversation that
Speaker 2: people haven't really been having before around is it okay
Speaker 2: to end a friendship if it's not healthy or you know,
Speaker 2: especially if you've known someone since since you were a child.
Speaker 2: We hold onto those friendships because there are old friends
Speaker 2: and we should know.
Speaker 1: Us from like back in the day. Yeah, they're no
Speaker 1: a version of us that no one else knows.
Speaker 2: And even sometimes that I think the signs that a
Speaker 2: friendship might not be healthy can be so subtle.
Speaker 3: It's not like a sort.
Speaker 2: Of one big red flag and then you think, right,
Speaker 2: that needs to end because this is not okay. I
Speaker 2: think it often comes very gradually and subtly over.
Speaker 3: Time in the in sort of feelings.
Speaker 2: You know, it's the feeling you get when you walk
Speaker 2: away from a friendship group and you think, ah, they
Speaker 2: were going to stop.
Speaker 3: Talking about me now, or do they really like me?
Speaker 2: Or why am I being excluded from this or that
Speaker 2: or the other, and and so there's lots of kind
Speaker 2: of subtle signs, or maybe you start to realize that
Speaker 2: you can't really share positive information about it, like maybe
Speaker 2: things are going well for you in your career or whatever,
Speaker 2: you know, relationship, but you realize that information is not welcome.
Speaker 3: People don't want to.
Speaker 2: Hear it, or it's followed up with kind of praise
Speaker 2: that feels like insult under the surface. Or maybe you're
Speaker 2: sharing something that you're going through negatively and you're making
Speaker 2: a bid for connection, right, You're looking for support, but
Speaker 2: it's met with a sort of one upmanship of oh,
Speaker 2: well I had it much worse, and so that bid
Speaker 2: for connection is kind of squashed by someone who doesn't
Speaker 2: want to hear that either, And so then you find
Speaker 2: yourself censoring yourself in your friendships and just doesn't feel
Speaker 2: like a safe environment to be anymore. Well, you don't
Speaker 2: feel like you can fully be yourself because if you are,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be accepted. And those sorts of indications. It's
Speaker 2: sort of kind of a mixture. It's like a big
Speaker 2: soup of subtle signs and feelings, isn't it. And so
Speaker 2: that's why in the book, in that chapter, I kind
Speaker 2: of make it really clear that you don't make any
Speaker 2: rash decisions when it comes to me, because it's your life,
Speaker 2: right And friendships are so important, and not only friendships,
Speaker 2: but good quality friendships. And so you could have a
Speaker 2: good quality friendship, but your friend could be going through
Speaker 2: a rough time exactly and not be at the best
Speaker 2: for a while, And so we have to be able
Speaker 2: to tolerate that in the way that we would want
Speaker 2: them to tolerate us not being at our best, but
Speaker 2: also looking after our own sort of well being at
Speaker 2: the same time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think red flags make it almost easier to
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, this is the end of a friendship.
Speaker 1: But yeah, when I was reading that, I've been through
Speaker 1: so many moments in my life where, you know, some
Speaker 1: of my bestest friends from childhood, we've had to have periods,
Speaker 1: maybe years in between, where we just don't speak, not
Speaker 1: because anything drastic has happened, or if we just aren't
Speaker 1: connecting and the connection is based on our past selves
Speaker 1: and everything is based on the past and not the
Speaker 1: present or the future, and we end up meeting, but
Speaker 1: there's no true connection. It's purely nostalgia. And I think
Speaker 1: there is an element to nostalgia which I think is
Speaker 1: really beautiful and wonderful when you think about all the
Speaker 1: times you've had together. But when it's only that and
Speaker 1: you're not able to connect as who you are now
Speaker 1: and you have to keep going back to these versions
Speaker 1: of yourself that you used to be. For me, that
Speaker 1: ended up being a sign, and so I had a
Speaker 1: choice to make. I was like, Okay, either we try
Speaker 1: to reconnect as the new people that we are now
Speaker 1: or the friendship is pretty much withering away. And so
Speaker 1: with some of them, because I felt like it was
Speaker 1: worth the investment, I was like, I want to get
Speaker 1: to know you again, like brand new, not the people
Speaker 1: we were ten years ago. I want to know what
Speaker 1: do you like to read now? Like what type of
Speaker 1: person you? How do you want me to communicate with you?
Speaker 1: It really is like a relationship, And when you think
Speaker 1: about it in that way, you know, with me and
Speaker 1: my husband, we've been through so many different versions of
Speaker 1: ourselves as we've been together, and there's only so many
Speaker 1: people that you can make the time investment to truly
Speaker 1: get to know each other over and over again, and
Speaker 1: so it's actually quite na for friendships to wither away
Speaker 1: because there's only so much time.
Speaker 4: We have.
Speaker 1: A lot of that is focused on trying to make
Speaker 1: sure your one relationship that you're in is remaining stable
Speaker 1: and the connection is staying good. And then after that
Speaker 1: you may have your family members and then so friends.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you have to pick the few that
Speaker 1: you really want to invest those moments in because you
Speaker 1: can't have more than that. It's so impossible to invest
Speaker 1: that time into so many more people. I think that
Speaker 1: that part is the ebbs and flows of allowing the
Speaker 1: friendship to leave if it needs to leave at that
Speaker 1: moment in time, but also knowing that there may be
Speaker 1: a time where it comes back, even stronger, and I've
Speaker 1: had that so many times in my life, and it
Speaker 1: actually has been better the second time around, where we
Speaker 1: needed that time apart for us to reconnect again.
Speaker 3: And it's knowing that that's okay.
Speaker 2: Isn't exactly you can have different chapters of your life
Speaker 2: where because a lot of friendships are also really based
Speaker 2: around circumstance, So you know, if you're both in that
Speaker 2: same chapter of your life at the same time, then
Speaker 2: you might spend lots of time together at that point,
Speaker 2: and that's okay. But then it's equally okay to I
Speaker 2: love those friendships where maybe you have a certain few
Speaker 2: chapters in your life where you don't see each other,
Speaker 2: and then when you come back together again, it's like
Speaker 2: that time never happened. You're just straight back into it.
Speaker 2: And it's wonderful and it's lovely to have those kind
Speaker 2: of connections. But I think when we set friendship up
Speaker 2: around all of these kind of rules and you know,
Speaker 2: it has to be this and we have to see
Speaker 2: each other this much, and we have to phone each
Speaker 2: other all the time and we have to yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's when it's so sort of almost overly sensitive,
Speaker 2: then too, isn't it that it becomes an unsafe environment
Speaker 2: because there are so many things we can get wrong.
Speaker 1: Yes, the situational part is so true. It's like I
Speaker 1: had friends that I grew up with and then some
Speaker 1: of them started having children way earlier than some of
Speaker 1: our other friends were, and so naturally the way that
Speaker 1: you can spend time together shifts, or the times that
Speaker 1: you can spend time together shifts. And it's not that
Speaker 1: any of us fell like out of love with each
Speaker 1: other as friends. It was just that the situations were
Speaker 1: not allowing us to connect in the same way. And so,
Speaker 1: but I get a lot of messages from people's saying
Speaker 1: my friends whenever I do a podcast to do with friendship,
Speaker 1: my friends like, I had a baby, and I feel
Speaker 1: so alone now because all my friends don't have children,
Speaker 1: and now I feel disconnected. They're all going out doing things,
Speaker 1: and I remember one of my friends felt like that too,
Speaker 1: and now looking back, I was like, yeah, we could
Speaker 1: have probably could have been a bit more sensitive to that.
Speaker 1: But when you are not in that situation and it's
Speaker 1: ninety percent of you are actually without a child and
Speaker 1: that one friend has one, it's almost like it's so
Speaker 1: difficult to put yourself in their position, but saying that
Speaker 1: when the rest of our friends ended up getting children,
Speaker 1: they were reconnected and had that relationship again. So I
Speaker 1: do think situations can change. I have a lot of
Speaker 1: single friends, and so the way that they spend time
Speaker 1: together is really different to the way that I would
Speaker 1: spend time with them. The conversations that they have are
Speaker 1: really different to the conversations that I might be able
Speaker 1: to participate in. And so, yeah, I think where you
Speaker 1: are at in life can also really determine the type
Speaker 1: of conversation and connection that you can have with friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think when you start to kind of
Speaker 2: sense that friendship might not be healthy, or someone might
Speaker 2: not have your best interests at heart, or maybe the
Speaker 2: trust is stop going because you know, you've had a
Speaker 2: few of those sort of sarcastic comments or you know,
Speaker 2: loaded comments that make you feel like, oh you don't
Speaker 2: you're not happy about this, or you're not as trustworthy
Speaker 2: as I thought you were. Then I think it's okay
Speaker 2: to kind of take that slowly, isn't it, Because of
Speaker 2: all those things about the different chapters and people change
Speaker 2: and people going through different things. So you talk about
Speaker 2: in the book, is watch and learn, just observe, take
Speaker 2: it on board, don't ignore it. And it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be a big dramatic thing either. You could just observe,
Speaker 2: note it, and keep learning about the person as they
Speaker 2: reveal themselves to you. And because it might be a
Speaker 2: bad patch, it might be that they're going through some stuff,
Speaker 2: or it might be too much, you know, something that
Speaker 2: you don't have to have.
Speaker 3: In your life.
Speaker 1: I also think sometimes when can get really close to
Speaker 1: each other, there's this idea of being able to give
Speaker 1: extremely raw feedback to someone, Like the criticism that you're
Speaker 1: able to give, you think it's constructive, but sometimes it
Speaker 1: can be kind of cruel. And so you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know whether you have an opinion on this. Where
Speaker 1: the difference between when you get close to somebody what
Speaker 1: how to know the balance between whether the criticism that
Speaker 1: you're actually giving is constructive.
Speaker 4: Or whether it's actually just not your place to say anything.
Speaker 1: I think that's something women struggle with more than men,
Speaker 1: is the idea of oh, I have to tell you
Speaker 1: my opinion, and I love you, and so why I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell you what I think about this, this
Speaker 1: and this, But sometimes giving your opinion isn't part of
Speaker 1: the relationship that you have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, it's a really tough one
Speaker 2: where a lot of and again there's lots of stuff online,
Speaker 2: isn't there where it's sort of you know, if your
Speaker 2: friend isn't supporting you and your girls, then ditch them,
Speaker 2: and that kind of And actually, I think that sort
Speaker 2: of neglects the nuance of what happens if your friend
Speaker 2: is self distructing and going down a path that's not
Speaker 2: good for them. That takes a really brave friend to say,
Speaker 2: you're making their own decisions right, and let's pull it back,
Speaker 2: because that kind of honesty and criticism's mortally honest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is what.
Speaker 2: That person might need, but it also puts the whole
Speaker 2: friendship at risk because they might say, don't want to
Speaker 2: hear it. I'm on this path and if you don't
Speaker 2: like it, you know, that's it. So I think there's
Speaker 2: often that really difficult judgment call as to do I
Speaker 2: just want to hold onto this friendship even though this
Speaker 2: person might be making some really bad decisions for themselves,
Speaker 2: or do I try and be a kind of positive
Speaker 2: force for them, And that's such a hard decision to make.
Speaker 2: And a really difficult conversation to have, even once you
Speaker 2: have made the decision to say something, because the likelihood
Speaker 2: of them listening is potentially fairly slim.
Speaker 1: Also when it's to do with the other person's partner,
Speaker 1: Like I I recently did a podcast all about friendship
Speaker 1: with some of my other friends, and one of the
Speaker 1: key things that came up in a poll was people
Speaker 1: separating from friendships because of the other person's partner. And
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, I didn't realize that was such
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Where they've had they don't
Speaker 1: believe that person should be with them, or they've had
Speaker 1: bad interactions with that person and so don't want to
Speaker 1: be around them and therefore can't be around their friend
Speaker 1: as much. And so I think it's it's quite hard
Speaker 1: for people to separate their friend from the person that
Speaker 1: they're with, and that can be quite tricky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And all of those situations are just again, it's
Speaker 2: that judgment call, isn't it. Of how useful is it
Speaker 2: in this situation for me to be honest about it, right,
Speaker 2: you know? Because you know, is it always useful to
Speaker 2: have a big, dramatic ending to a relationship to a friendship,
Speaker 2: or do we just accept that, you know, our lives
Speaker 2: are going in different directions and so we're probably going
Speaker 2: to see each other a little bit less, or when
Speaker 2: we do see each other, probably not going to tell
Speaker 2: them all the things that I would have trusted them
Speaker 2: with in the past. And I think it's okay to
Speaker 2: have both, isn't it Sometimes as a really significant end
Speaker 2: point to a friendship and other times it might just
Speaker 2: be a bit more kind of a gradual drifting, and
Speaker 2: that's okay.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: You know. I think with the rise in how anxious
Speaker 1: people are feeling nowadays, connecting in social situations can feel
Speaker 1: really daunting, or you can come away from an event
Speaker 1: or around your own friends and feel like you still
Speaker 1: feel so disconnected and haven't had a meaningful conversation. For
Speaker 1: people who feel really awkward in social situations, do you
Speaker 1: have any tips or tricks for them of how to
Speaker 1: actually connect and how to come away feeling like they've
Speaker 1: had meaning in that interaction.
Speaker 2: I think this is a huge one, actually, where so
Speaker 2: much of it is around the focus of your attention.
Speaker 2: So if someone is feeling socially awkward or socially anxious,
Speaker 2: generally their attention will be focused inward, so it will
Speaker 2: all be how am I coming across, What is this
Speaker 2: other person thinking about me?
Speaker 3: What did they think when I said that? Are they
Speaker 3: judging me?
Speaker 2: And it's all this kind of inward focus and self
Speaker 2: adjustment that generates more and more anxiety in that situation,
Speaker 2: whereas someone who is confident not so much focused on
Speaker 2: how to avoid all the awkwardness and getting it wrong.
Speaker 2: They're not really focused on that at all. They're focused
Speaker 2: on the other person and getting to know them or
Speaker 2: finding out certain things about them, or making them feel welcome.
Speaker 3: And that's something that was really key for me in
Speaker 3: the book was.
Speaker 2: This idea of we often go into a situation and
Speaker 2: we're scanning, and we're looking for someone who is going
Speaker 2: to greet us and make us feel welcome and help
Speaker 2: us feel calmer and more comforted. But most people are
Speaker 2: probably in the same situation, right So, especially if it's
Speaker 2: one of the events where everyone turns up kind of
Speaker 2: on their own, you don't really know anybody.
Speaker 3: Everyone's hoping that someone else does that for them.
Speaker 2: And so something I'll talked about in their book was
Speaker 2: about what if we were all going to go into
Speaker 2: a situation and be the welcomer instead of waiting to
Speaker 2: be welcomed, even if it's not your arena and it's not.
Speaker 3: Your home or whatever.
Speaker 2: Is going to someone and making it your mission to
Speaker 2: make them feel welcome and make them feel interesting or
Speaker 2: you know, have them walk away from you feeling ten
Speaker 2: feet tall. And so because when we do that, the
Speaker 2: same comes back. And because we're all just human, we're
Speaker 2: all just waiting to feel welcomed and accepted. So a
Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, if I'm working with
Speaker 2: people who feel socially awkward or socially anxious, we work
Speaker 2: on that kind of shift of attention from inward to outward,
Speaker 2: but also this mission of action towards Okay, how can
Speaker 2: I make other people feel a bit more comfortable, because
Speaker 2: in the process you do that for yourself as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you feel more useful in that situation
Speaker 1: as well. I actually wrote that part down because every
Speaker 1: lected don't wait to be welcomed, be the welcomer. When
Speaker 1: I was feeling through it, and I was like, that's
Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing to do for someone else when
Speaker 1: you walk into an environment. And I started doing that
Speaker 1: when I was started to going to lots of events
Speaker 1: by myself. I would automatic say, did you come here alone?
Speaker 1: I came here alone too. I was a little bit
Speaker 1: nervous coming into here, but it's so nice that I
Speaker 1: finally found someone that I can speak to or like,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of addressing the elephant in the room
Speaker 1: helped well, because I was like, oh god, I was
Speaker 1: really nervous too. I was meant to come with a friend,
Speaker 1: but I ended up coming alone. And now and I
Speaker 1: would always say, I usually find one person to stick to.
Speaker 1: That person might be or like, you know, making a
Speaker 1: joke or something that might not be useful for them.
Speaker 4: They're like, God, I want to get rid of this girl.
Speaker 1: But for me that made me feel comfortable because I
Speaker 1: was kind of just sharing how I was feeling in
Speaker 1: the moment and it wasn't just pent up inside of me.
Speaker 1: And then it allowed the other person to also be
Speaker 1: vulnerable and share too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's only through experience that we managed to
Speaker 2: kind of acknowledge that. I I remember going to someone's
Speaker 2: book claunch event on my own in London, and it
Speaker 2: was the first time I'd ever done anything like that,
Speaker 2: and I noticed in myself it's sort of almost cover
Speaker 2: avoidance strategies. So I got there, I sort of nursed
Speaker 2: my jacket for a while before some one took it
Speaker 2: from me, and then I went to the bar and
Speaker 2: I sort of spent time, you know, choosing my drink.
Speaker 3: And really all of this was an.
Speaker 2: Avoidance of finding interact to you, yeah, because then I
Speaker 2: kind of held my drink and then I went off
Speaker 2: to the bathroom there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's all cover avoidance, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's all us trying to feel a bit safer from
Speaker 2: that anxious feeling. And actually when up, you know, the
Speaker 2: whole situation turned around for me in the moment that
Speaker 2: I decided to just be brave and start a conversation
Speaker 2: with someone, and you often find that that person is
Speaker 2: also on their own or knows somebody. And I heard
Speaker 2: an amazing story actually from a home about a group
Speaker 2: of girls that all went out to a pub together
Speaker 2: to have a little sociure and they're all giggling and
Speaker 2: having some fun. And there was another woman in the
Speaker 2: pub reading a book, and she had just moved to
Speaker 2: the area, she didn't know anybody, and she looked over
Speaker 2: and she could see these girls having fun together, and
Speaker 2: she just did the bravest thing. She put her book down,
Speaker 2: she walked over and she said, Hi, this is really
Speaker 2: strange thing to do. I've never done this before, but
Speaker 2: I've just moved to the area. I don't know anybody,
Speaker 2: and you all seem like you're really fun.
Speaker 3: Would you mind if I join you? And that was
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: She's now a really solid part of that friendship group,
Speaker 2: just because of that moment that she was enough to
Speaker 2: say to risk everybody kind of looking funny at her
Speaker 2: and saying no, thank you. She was brave enough to say,
Speaker 2: could I come and join you? This is my name,
Speaker 2: what's yours? And from that developed really incredible human connections.
Speaker 2: But I thought, how brave was that there was me
Speaker 2: at that book launch, holding my drink and going to
Speaker 2: the loutino anytimes, And I thought that was such an
Speaker 2: inspiration to think it just if you're willing to have
Speaker 2: that vulnerable moment in which you have to kind of
Speaker 2: cultivate some real courage, the potential to develop friendships is huge.
Speaker 4: It's creating these opportunities for connection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a lot of the times there aren't that
Speaker 1: many opportunities, so you kind of have to be the
Speaker 1: one to step out of your comfort zone to create
Speaker 1: them for yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if you're willing to kind of sit with that
Speaker 2: feeling of the potential for someone to say no, thank you,
Speaker 2: then you can always kind of cope with that afterwards
Speaker 2: by acknowledging that it was a risk and if that
Speaker 2: person is going to behave like that in response, they're
Speaker 2: probably not for you anyway. So you've learned that quicker
Speaker 2: than you perhaps want to go to.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The next area of your book is open when you
Speaker 1: keep saying yes but want to say no. I think
Speaker 1: you shared a quote that in the book that says,
Speaker 1: when you say yes to others, make sure you're not
Speaker 1: saying no to yourself. So how can someone get out
Speaker 1: of the trap of people pleasing yeah, Because I think
Speaker 1: that's also something many of us struggle with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I talk about it in that chatcha around
Speaker 2: how the difficulty is not necessarily just with the word no.
Speaker 2: It's with all the feelings that come with it, right,
Speaker 2: And it's that sense of I am somehow responsible for
Speaker 2: how they feel, and if they feel disappointment, that's my
Speaker 2: fault and I need to be accountable for that and
Speaker 2: or responsible for it, and so a lot of the
Speaker 2: work that happens in therapy around sort of a lot
Speaker 2: of ascertainness stuff happens in therapy actually, but a lot
Speaker 2: of that work is around the feelings, you know, because
Speaker 2: people say, well, well, I'll feel guilty if I say no,
Speaker 2: and so it's the feeling of guilt that feels intolerable.
Speaker 2: And as soon as you're willing to accept that guilt,
Speaker 2: welcome it, acknowledge it, and take it with you, then
Speaker 2: it can't hold you back. It's only if you're unwilling
Speaker 2: to feel that sense of guilt that it becomes too
Speaker 2: difficult to say no or to hold a boundary. And
Speaker 2: if you have again, it comes back to the value stuff.
Speaker 2: If you have clarity on your values, so you understand
Speaker 2: why you're going to say no at this point, or
Speaker 2: why you're going to hold a boundary, then it's much
Speaker 2: easier to acknowledge that I'm going to feel guilty about it.
Speaker 2: But that guilt doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong to
Speaker 2: hold this boundary. That guilt might be an echo of
Speaker 2: the past where maybe I grew up in a home
Speaker 2: where you know, I was taught that if I said
Speaker 2: no or I put myself first, that I got punished
Speaker 2: for it maybe, or you know something that might have
Speaker 2: taught you to feel guilty about putting yourself first, or
Speaker 2: even not even putting yourself first, but putting yourself to
Speaker 2: the same level as everybody else. Sometimes can feel filled
Speaker 2: with guilt. But if you acknowledge that that emotion doesn't
Speaker 2: have all the information, so it can be an echo
Speaker 2: of the past then because the reason it can be
Speaker 2: an echo of the past is that you know, your
Speaker 2: brain is constantly taking information from the outside world and
Speaker 2: inside your body about how to make meaning about what's
Speaker 2: going on. But it will also take memories from the
Speaker 2: past about when you felt similar or when something similar
Speaker 2: is happening to help it make sense of what's going on.
Speaker 2: And so everything that happened, you know, in childhood or
Speaker 2: your early years, is still a part of the equation
Speaker 2: today but might be unhelpful.
Speaker 3: So if you can.
Speaker 2: See that guilt as Okay, this is an echo of
Speaker 2: my past, but it's not necessarily relevant to how I
Speaker 2: want to live now, then we're able to kind of
Speaker 2: scoop it up and take it with And I do
Speaker 2: this because I always you see this metaphor of kind
Speaker 2: of put it in your backpack, take it with you
Speaker 2: so that it can't hold you back. And so if
Speaker 2: you're willing to kind of take the guilt with you
Speaker 2: knowing that it doesn't mean you're wrong to do this thing.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you listen to Gil and it means you're wrong
Speaker 2: about what you're doing. But it's if you're willing to
Speaker 2: look at the feeling with curiosity, then you can decipher
Speaker 2: whether it's warranted in this moment or whether it's from
Speaker 2: the past.
Speaker 1: You talk in your book about the I don't mind
Speaker 1: kind of person, and I resonated with it so much
Speaker 1: because I really really used to be that I don't
Speaker 1: mind kind of person, where you know, what do you
Speaker 1: want to eat? Oh, I don't really mind, what do
Speaker 1: you want to I don't mind.
Speaker 4: What do you want to do in life? I don't
Speaker 4: really know. I don't really mind.
Speaker 1: And at that time, it was it was me thinking
Speaker 1: I'm just so easy, like I'm such an easy person
Speaker 1: to be around.
Speaker 4: I can be.
Speaker 1: Really flexible, and I don't really have my own desires
Speaker 1: or opinions, and so in my mind it made me
Speaker 1: seem like an easy person to be around, because if
Speaker 1: I was an easy person to be around. Then you've
Speaker 1: got no reason to leave or to not be my
Speaker 1: friend or to not be my partner. I'm certainly thing
Speaker 1: when I was reading it, because I've really worked on
Speaker 1: that since, because it also made me someone who did
Speaker 1: it have an opinion, and therefore if I don't have
Speaker 1: an opinion, it felt like I lacked personality, and so
Speaker 1: actually my personality became the people's personality around me. Oh
Speaker 1: you want pizza, okay, yeah, I'm a pizza person too,
Speaker 1: Or oh you want to watch that movie Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I like that movie too, And so essentially
Speaker 1: I was absorbing everybody else's opinions and personalities around me
Speaker 1: without being it, because if you're not exerting your own personality,
Speaker 1: it ceases to exist. And so constantly taking on other
Speaker 1: people's narratives and what they liked and disliked, it was like, then,
Speaker 1: who who am I? And it reminded me of what's
Speaker 1: that movie where? Or maybe it's Rachel and Friends or
Speaker 1: something where they say whenever she dates someone, she'd ended
Speaker 1: up being being that kind of person, like whoever you
Speaker 1: end up dating, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm you reade
Speaker 1: Motorbikes I read motorbikes now too, or like you like
Speaker 1: heavy metal music, I like heavy metal.
Speaker 4: No, it's Julia Robertson in Runaway Bride.
Speaker 2: Now you have al watched that, so you're almost a
Speaker 2: chameleon who you're with.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think it was just really a
Speaker 1: big light barb moment because I think there is this
Speaker 1: idea that you should be able to be assertive without
Speaker 1: feeling like you're being harsh, Like you can be assertive
Speaker 1: without being aggressive, and I think I hadn't been able
Speaker 1: to distinguish between the two. So for anybody who's trying
Speaker 1: to create boundaries, like is there any advice that you
Speaker 1: have for that and being able to be their own
Speaker 1: person without feeling like they're being too harsh or aggressive
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I absolutely resonate with what you
Speaker 3: kind of said.
Speaker 2: I did a video I think it was a couple
Speaker 2: of years back now about this idea that with the
Speaker 2: kind of I don't mind type approach. But I had
Speaker 2: this Jenger tower and I would I said, every time
Speaker 2: you say I don't mind or you can choose, it's
Speaker 2: like taking a piece out of the middle of the tower.
Speaker 2: And then I said, well, but then when you get
Speaker 2: to the point where you're on a stage in your
Speaker 2: life where you have to make your own decisions or
Speaker 2: you have to make you have your own preferences. And
Speaker 2: I sort of then turned around the at the Junga tow,
Speaker 2: which then was just full of holes. And then you
Speaker 2: kind of think, I don't really know what my preferences
Speaker 2: are because I've never had a chance to choose them,
Speaker 2: or you know, I've never never given them the time
Speaker 2: of day, and so, like you say, you then feel
Speaker 2: a bit empty, like I don't really know what I
Speaker 2: like or I don't know what I would choose on.
Speaker 2: And I find it difficult to make decisions because I
Speaker 2: always put those decisions onto other people. And it can
Speaker 2: be a real path to resentment as well, because if
Speaker 2: you're doing that and you're saying you know, you can
Speaker 2: choose everything, then when those choices are wrong for you
Speaker 2: and you don't have a nice experience or you know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't work out, then it's therefore.
Speaker 4: You blame them. Yeah, I think I did that to
Speaker 4: my husband at the beginning. Actually, yeah, but.
Speaker 1: You told me I should go to this, because I
Speaker 1: didn't actually tell you you have you had a choice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it, and then that feeling of resentment.
Speaker 2: The quote that you came up with earlier about how
Speaker 2: you know resentment isn't something that the world owes you,
Speaker 2: it's that you know something that you need to work on.
Speaker 2: I would say with this staff is look out for
Speaker 2: those feelings of resentment because they're a sign that there
Speaker 2: was some sort of boundary that wasn't held before.
Speaker 3: You know that if you're not.
Speaker 2: Asserting your own desires or wishes or needs and then
Speaker 2: resenting your partner or your friend fulfilling the space for you,
Speaker 2: then it comes back to Okay, well, what do you
Speaker 2: want that's not this? And how are you willing to
Speaker 2: advocate for yourself? And if you don't advocate for yourself
Speaker 2: that you know that path into resentment bitterness is steep
Speaker 2: and dark and not fun.
Speaker 4: And then it's not good for you or the other person.
Speaker 1: Like you think you're doing it for the other person, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but actually it messes with that relationship too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The next one that hit me hard was open this
Speaker 1: when you want to win the argument, Emilio. Not that
Speaker 1: that's an excuse, but I will say that I am
Speaker 1: working on this a lot. I've gotten better, but so stubborn.
Speaker 1: He was so stubborn an argument with someone who is
Speaker 1: like my husband is the sweetest arguer, Like he has
Speaker 1: zero desire to argue with me, even whether if he's wrong,
Speaker 1: He will like apologize if I'm wrong, he will try
Speaker 1: and like have the conversation in a really loving way.
Speaker 4: And I'm there, hot headed, and I.
Speaker 1: Know I'm in the wrong, but for some reason, there
Speaker 1: is no part of me that wants to admit I'm
Speaker 1: in the wrong. And on top of that, I want
Speaker 1: to keep my argument going for as long as possible.
Speaker 1: And so you said, I was just there was a
Speaker 1: part in their way. He said, think very carefully before
Speaker 1: beating down your own team. When you fight with the
Speaker 1: people you love, the only person who thinks you look
Speaker 1: good in victory is you.
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 1: To those you defeat, the memory becomes less about how
Speaker 1: you turned out to be right and more about how
Speaker 1: you made them feel crushed, unheard and unloved. Their witness
Speaker 1: to how you were willing to be in the name
Speaker 1: of winning an argument will corrode their trust in you
Speaker 1: for a long time to come.
Speaker 4: And I was like, that is.
Speaker 1: If anything was going to stop me it'll be those ways.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's so true. It's so interesting how your
Speaker 1: ego can completely take over. Even with the person that
Speaker 1: you want to love the most, or even with the
Speaker 1: person that you never want to hurt, you end up
Speaker 1: trying to have an ego with them. And it's like
Speaker 1: there is no place for ego in love, but for
Speaker 1: some reason it shows up quite a bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's but and it's natural, isn't it.
Speaker 2: You know that's where you know, anger is that kind
Speaker 2: of last resort emotion almost where something is important to us,
Speaker 2: that's that's happened and you know, and we want to
Speaker 2: change it, and a big emotion has risen up. Then
Speaker 2: it makes sense that we we just want to be
Speaker 2: heard in that moment and we want things to go
Speaker 2: our way. And so that's very normal and human. And
Speaker 2: you know, even having written those words, I still you know,
Speaker 2: don't get that right. Every time I'm right, I'm right,
Speaker 2: and so you know, it's still human for that to happen.
Speaker 3: And I think that's key with all of this stuff,
Speaker 3: is that knowing it doesn't mean you will ever be
Speaker 3: perfect had it. It's just something.
Speaker 2: You know, humans are complex and so something that we
Speaker 2: always can remind ourselves of And that's why I kind
Speaker 2: of wanted to with both my books, actually wanted to
Speaker 2: write them as a dip in, dip out, be able
Speaker 2: to know what your scenario is, go straight to it
Speaker 2: and get the words that you need to here in
Speaker 2: the moment, and then get back out, not go cover
Speaker 2: to cover re searching for something in the moment, because
Speaker 2: you just need I think so much of what we
Speaker 2: need in the moment when we're struggling is just something
Speaker 2: to shift our attention in the direction that's going to
Speaker 2: help us move through and out the other side. We
Speaker 2: don't need kind of you know, advice about you know, actually,
Speaker 2: if you'd just started mind from a six months ago,
Speaker 2: you'd be a right now, No, I just need to
Speaker 2: calm down right now. So often it's just that, you
Speaker 2: know that sometimes we have that person that says the
Speaker 2: right words in the moment, and sometimes we have to
Speaker 2: do that for ourselves, and it's really difficult to do
Speaker 2: that for ourselves. So I think that's where things like
Speaker 2: books can be really helpful. But if you can kind
Speaker 2: of shift your attention in the moment so that you
Speaker 2: can come back to some sort of baseline and remember
Speaker 2: what's important, and so you know, lines like that around actually,
Speaker 2: why why on earth would you want.
Speaker 3: To win this one? You know, if it's a fight.
Speaker 2: About I don't know, someone being laid home for dinner,
Speaker 2: but actually there's a person you want to spend your
Speaker 2: whole life with.
Speaker 3: It's just the perspective issues. It feels.
Speaker 2: Lots of things feel big in the moment, but when
Speaker 2: we have that ability to kind of put it at
Speaker 2: arm's length and see it for what it is, then feelings.
Speaker 3: About it can often shift.
Speaker 2: That's often an experience people would have in therapy a
Speaker 2: lot actually, where you know, they get to the end
Speaker 2: of a session they come in kind of steaming with
Speaker 2: lots of emotion, and the sessions that, oh, I.
Speaker 3: Kind of feel differently about it now.
Speaker 2: And it's just having that chance to shift perspective on
Speaker 2: things and see it from a kind of bird's eye
Speaker 2: view enables you to kind of just rejig your thoughts
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and taking time with it.
Speaker 1: I think we're so used to rushing through life, where
Speaker 1: whether it's our emotions they have to come out fast,
Speaker 1: or whether it's our decisions, we have to make them
Speaker 1: really fast. And so when we're in this constant feeling
Speaker 1: of fastness. You think every part of your life has
Speaker 1: to be fast, but actually most things done fast are
Speaker 1: not done well. And so taking especially with the things
Speaker 1: that you care about the most in your life, or
Speaker 1: the people that you care about the most in your life,
Speaker 1: it's the place where we should be giving space and
Speaker 1: time to make those decisions and have those emotions and
Speaker 1: think about it. Because the most amount of time that
Speaker 1: you spend on something is what matters in your life.
Speaker 1: And so the more time you spend on the people
Speaker 1: that you love and thinking about the way you're speaking
Speaker 1: to them, acting towards them determines everything.
Speaker 4: I think, shift and change everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, your relationships are such a huge part of
Speaker 2: your life, aren't they. So if you can make ten
Speaker 2: percent improvement on the person, on your relationship with the
Speaker 2: person you see every day, then you've improved a huge
Speaker 2: part of your life.
Speaker 1: This was the last one that I wanted to touch on,
Speaker 1: which was when it's hard be with yourself. When you're
Speaker 1: in a voice, is your own worst critic, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's your physical appearance, whether it is again comparison,
Speaker 1: whatever those things are. I think having this inner critical
Speaker 1: voice can sometimes just completely take over. And so, do
Speaker 1: you have any tools or techniques that can help people
Speaker 1: create a different narrative in their mind about themselves, or
Speaker 1: do you have any specific tools or things that someone
Speaker 1: can do every single day to help shift that a
Speaker 1: little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something quite key that's been a
Speaker 2: real game changer for me personally and for lots of
Speaker 2: people that I've worked with. A lot of people, even
Speaker 2: when they know they are highly self critical, they'll hold
Speaker 2: on to it for dear life and they'll so but
Speaker 2: it's the source of my success.
Speaker 3: It's why I get up.
Speaker 2: In the morning and get to work, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to or anything that makes me try harder. And
Speaker 2: they think that the only way to strive is through
Speaker 2: kind of fear of failure or you know, through a
Speaker 2: fear of not being good enough, things like that, And
Speaker 2: you can actually strive from a much more contented place
Speaker 2: where you also feel enough. But a lot of it
Speaker 2: is sort of convincing people of that, and sometimes it's
Speaker 2: also a misconception around the opposite of being a kind
Speaker 2: of bully to yourself in your own head. People imagine that,
Speaker 2: well that if I'm not doing that I'm just going
Speaker 2: to be self indulgent and I'm just going to let
Speaker 2: myself off the hook with things. And the difference between
Speaker 2: self compassion and self indulgence is quite kind of distinct.
Speaker 2: So let's say, let's say my daughter says, do you
Speaker 2: know what, I just don't feel like i'm to school today?
Speaker 3: Mean, I just I'm I'm tired. Indulgence might be saying, okay, well,
Speaker 3: we'll go when you feel like it. It's okay, just chill.
Speaker 2: That would be indulgence, right, But compassion would be saying, okay,
Speaker 2: I get that you're a bit tired today. It's tough sometimes,
Speaker 2: isn't it when you haven't slept. Well, here's the reason
Speaker 2: that going to school consistently is really really important. And
Speaker 2: so today we're going to do the really difficult thing,
Speaker 2: and we're going to go anyway, but then to we're
Speaker 2: going to have an early night, and then we're going
Speaker 2: to you know, make sure you're kind of feeling better tomorrow,
Speaker 2: and we're going to do the right thing. And so
Speaker 2: compassion is often doing the more difficult thing that has
Speaker 2: your best interests at heart for the future, right. And
Speaker 2: so when we're talking about that kind of that inner
Speaker 2: voice and being kinder to yourself. It doesn't mean being
Speaker 2: indulgent or not being honest with yourself or letting yourself
Speaker 2: off the hook of anything. I always think of it
Speaker 2: as like, you know, if you're in a voice sounds
Speaker 2: more like a bully, that's going to be taking its
Speaker 2: toll on your mental health without a doubt. But if
Speaker 2: you can turn that voice into something that sounds more
Speaker 2: like a coach, you know, like every elite athlete wants
Speaker 2: to be their best. The way that they do that
Speaker 2: is by hiring a coach. They don't hire their high
Speaker 2: school bully to be their coach. They hire someone that
Speaker 2: they fully trust. Someone they know that we'll always be
Speaker 2: honest with them about when they're doing things right and
Speaker 2: when they're doing things wrong or when they're failing. They'll
Speaker 2: deliver that honesty with kindness and support and encouragement. And
Speaker 2: so someone who wants them to be at their best
Speaker 2: and achieve great things and has the same goals and values,
Speaker 2: and so someone will be able to kind of hauld
Speaker 2: them back up when they're on their knees and you know,
Speaker 2: send them out and when they're feeling scared and you know,
Speaker 2: do all those things, But we can kind of take
Speaker 2: that idea of the coach and apply that template to
Speaker 2: how we speak to ourselves.
Speaker 3: Right, So when I, you know.
Speaker 2: Little interrupt me kind of started doing things like live
Speaker 2: TV and the UK and stuff, it's like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: how am I going.
Speaker 3: To tolerate this?
Speaker 2: And the only way I was really able to put
Speaker 2: myself in that situation was when I fully committed to having.
Speaker 3: My own back if it all went wrong.
Speaker 2: Right, So it's not that it's only good if it's
Speaker 2: a success every time. It's that, okay, if something goes
Speaker 2: wrong and I fall over and flash my underwad the
Speaker 2: nation by accident, or humiliate myself, I am not going
Speaker 2: to be the one to kick myself when I'm down.
Speaker 2: I'm going to say the things that to me that
Speaker 2: help me pull myself back up and carry on in
Speaker 2: the face of setbacks and failures and things like that.
Speaker 2: And it takes a lot of work, because if you
Speaker 2: have a sort of harsh inner critic, it didn't develop overnight.
Speaker 2: It took a lifetime to hone its craft. And so
Speaker 2: what we don't want to do is then become self
Speaker 2: critical about the fact that we're being self critical, and
Speaker 2: that's the whole circle. So it's acknowledging, Okay, this is
Speaker 2: turning around a lifetime of habit. It's going to take time,
Speaker 2: but I'm always going to have that idea in my
Speaker 2: mind about Okay, what's well, that's very critical. What would
Speaker 2: a coach say instead of that? What would if I
Speaker 2: had a coach that was following me around helping me
Speaker 2: be my best? What would they say in response to
Speaker 2: this situation? So then you can always consult it. You
Speaker 2: can always ask yourself what might sound a bit better
Speaker 2: than that and what would be the impact?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's good advice.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think it's again it's just a question of
Speaker 1: pausing and creating. It's almost like shifting the narrative from
Speaker 1: this is what I did say, and this is what
Speaker 1: I would like myself to say. Yeah, this is what
Speaker 1: I would say if it was somebody that I loved,
Speaker 1: and I'm somebody that I love, and this is what
Speaker 1: I should be saying to myself.
Speaker 2: And sometimes you'll go around the circle again, and do
Speaker 2: you know, old habits die hard, So you'll do those
Speaker 2: old cycles and that training, and sometimes you'll go the
Speaker 2: other way. And so the more you practice it, the
Speaker 2: easier it gets.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, thank you so much. This is such
Speaker 4: a brilliant conversation.
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for your incredible books and
Speaker 1: all the information you're sharing with people online. I think
Speaker 1: you're helping so many in so many different ways. So
Speaker 1: thank you for being here.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.