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Speaker 1: How can someone get out of the trap of people pleasing?

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Speaker 2: The difficulty is not necessarily just with the word no,

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Speaker 2: it's with all the feelings that come with it.

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Speaker 1: Julie, you are a clinical psychologist and one of the

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Speaker 1: original therapists to discuss mental health issues on social media.

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Speaker 1: Your first book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?

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Speaker 1: Is an international bestseller, and your new book is Open

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Speaker 1: When a companion for life's twists and turns? Is there

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Speaker 1: a way to turn comparison into something that's positive and

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Speaker 1: useful in our life?

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Speaker 2: If your comparison turns into you feeling terrible, that's no

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Speaker 2: good for you. Whereas if the comparison turns into a

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Speaker 2: plan of action, that's a pretty good skill to have.

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Speaker 1: It's basically turning comparison into admiration and education.

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Speaker 2: If you're not asserting your own desires or wishes or

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Speaker 2: needs and then resenting your partner or your friend fulfilling

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Speaker 2: the space for you.

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Speaker 3: And then it comes back to, Okay, well what do

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Speaker 3: you want?

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Speaker 1: I'm Rady Wukiah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,

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Speaker 1: we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space

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Speaker 1: for raw, unfielded conversations celebrate vulnerability and allow you to

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Speaker 1: tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Julie,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here on a really

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Speaker 1: good cry. You're a clinical psychologist and one of the

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Speaker 1: original therapists to discuss mental health issues on social media.

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Speaker 1: You've built a social media community of over ten million people,

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Speaker 1: which is incredible because it shows how so many people

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Speaker 1: want to grow and be better. Your first book, Why

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Speaker 1: Has Nobody Told Me This Before, is an international bestseller

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Speaker 1: and has solved over a million copies.

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Speaker 4: That is incredible.

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Speaker 1: And your new book is Open When a Companion for

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Speaker 1: Life's twists and turns. And honestly, I love the name

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Speaker 1: of the book and as soon as I opened it up,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is like an emergency talkit for

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Speaker 1: anybody at any stage of their life. So thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for writing the book, and thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for being here.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here too, So

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Speaker 3: thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: So tell me how.

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Speaker 1: I just want to start off by asking how did

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Speaker 1: you begin this journey like one obviously becoming a clinical psychologist,

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Speaker 1: but then to take that information and share it online.

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Speaker 1: What connected you to and made you want to go

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Speaker 1: into that platform.

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Speaker 3: I think in some ways.

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Speaker 2: So I worked in the NHS for about ten years,

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Speaker 2: and when I had two of my now three children,

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Speaker 2: I realized I couldn't do it all, not well anyway.

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Speaker 2: So I decided to leave the NHS, take a break

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Speaker 2: from that for a while, and run just a really

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Speaker 2: small private practice, mostly so that I could control my

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Speaker 2: own time and work that around the children and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And it was during that time that I was seeing

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Speaker 2: people who were coming along who didn't necessarily need long term,

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Speaker 2: in depth therapy, but once they had the educational stuff

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Speaker 2: that went with therapy, so learning about how their mind works,

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Speaker 2: how they could impact on their own mood and their relationships,

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Speaker 2: they found some of that information so empowering. They were

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Speaker 2: raring to go, and they were kind of saying, do

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Speaker 2: you know what, I think I'm going to be all right?

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Speaker 2: I think I can cope with what comes ahead, comes up,

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Speaker 2: you know what life throws at me. So I just

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Speaker 2: kept saying to my poor husband, Matt, they should be

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Speaker 2: more available. People shouldn't have to pay to come and

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Speaker 2: see someone like me to find out how their own

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Speaker 2: mind works. Right, So he kind of said, well, go on, then,

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Speaker 2: make it available. Oh god, I don't think you're going

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Speaker 2: to solve that for me. So yeah, we made a

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Speaker 2: few really terrible YouTube videos and stuff, and at the

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Speaker 2: same time, then this huge rise in short form content

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Speaker 2: was happening, and maps go with TikTok and there were

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Speaker 2: loads of kids on there. There was lots of kind

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Speaker 2: of dancing and comedy and stuff, but then there were

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Speaker 2: also these people expressing their distress and about their mental health.

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Speaker 2: But there didn't seem to be any decent education in

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Speaker 2: response to that. So he said, well, why don't we

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Speaker 2: do some bite size videos? And my initial response was

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Speaker 2: absolutely not. We will just get trolled out of there

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Speaker 2: or people just won't listen. You know, how can I

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Speaker 2: be How can I give anything that's really useful in

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Speaker 2: sixty seconds these things that I would take half an

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Speaker 2: hour to talk about in therapy. But it became quite

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Speaker 2: a creative challenge. We decided to just let's give it

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Speaker 2: go and if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't

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Speaker 2: work out. And it worked out within yea. Within like

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Speaker 2: a week or two, there were just people emailing and

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Speaker 2: contacting us saying, what's the next step to this?

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Speaker 3: What if I apply this to that and can you

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Speaker 3: do a vide on this?

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Speaker 2: And we realize, oh my gosh, this is reaching real

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Speaker 2: people and impacting them enough that they're willing to, you know,

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Speaker 2: get in contact and ask more questions.

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Speaker 3: So we just carried on.

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Speaker 1: Wow, well, Matt sounds like a great supporter in everything

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Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, it's very nice to have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely the two of us.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he still has his own business, but

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Speaker 2: we kind of do that in the evenings.

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Speaker 3: What's put the children to bed? Do? We then kind

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Speaker 3: of make videos and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: It's also so sweet that you guys get to do

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Speaker 1: something where you know, you're you know, it's an active service.

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Speaker 1: You're helping other people together. Can I imagine that even

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Speaker 1: for your relationship. Is such a beautiful thing to have

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Speaker 1: between you, where your spare time is spent helping other

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Speaker 1: people together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And really, because I'm quite a sort of introvert, shy person,

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Speaker 2: I was really comfortable doing the one on one in

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Speaker 2: the therapy room, doing what I knew I was good at.

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Speaker 2: So all this idea of kind of being a very

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Speaker 2: public person was way out of my comfort zone. And

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Speaker 2: so the thing that really made it happen was the

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Speaker 2: real lifezation that with all this feedback coming through that

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Speaker 2: it's having a positive impact. So whenever I was a

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Speaker 2: bit tired of it, we kind of said, well, when

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Speaker 2: we're not having a positive impact anymore, will start.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but here we are.

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Speaker 3: How many that was we started in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing, congratulations, what a feet And really would love

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Speaker 1: to go through your new book because I think there's

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Speaker 1: so many incredible moments in them. I picked out a

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Speaker 1: few of the areas that connected with me and just

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Speaker 1: for everybody to give context. The book open when essentially

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Speaker 1: goes through different points in your life where you might

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Speaker 1: need to open the book. So whether it's when you

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Speaker 1: feel unwelcome and want to fit in, when they don't

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Speaker 1: love you back, when you doubt yourself and want to

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Speaker 1: feel more confident, when you're overwhelmed.

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Speaker 4: These are just a couple of the topics that you've

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Speaker 4: covered in there.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start with when you compare yourself

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Speaker 1: and come up shorts because I think that it is

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Speaker 1: something all of us do at some point in life,

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Speaker 1: if not through our whole entire life. Well, the first

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Speaker 1: thing I thought when I read it was can compare

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Speaker 1: Garson be healthy in some way, Like, is there a

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Speaker 1: way to turn comparison into something that's positive and useful

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Speaker 1: in our life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a major key to why I

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Speaker 2: included that chapter in the book, And because it's something

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Speaker 2: that happens to everybody. We all experience it because it's

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Speaker 2: what humans do. And yet when you go on social media,

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Speaker 2: the thing you see most is just stop comparing yourself.

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Speaker 3: Just don't do it because it makes you feel bad.

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Speaker 2: And it's sort of like, well, if we do that naturally,

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Speaker 2: that's because there's a function to it, and there really is. Right,

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Speaker 2: if you never assessed what other people around you are doing,

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Speaker 2: or what kind of morals they have or how they're living,

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Speaker 2: then you would become a pretty terrible community member, right.

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Speaker 2: And so our ability to compare ourselves to the people

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Speaker 2: that we live amongst and ensure that we're, you know,

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Speaker 2: doing the right thing or keeping in in line with

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Speaker 2: that community and their own values, then it makes us

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Speaker 2: a decent human being to live around. And I think

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Speaker 2: what happens is when comparison becomes detrimental is when we're

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Speaker 2: making the wrong comparisons. So often, when we're comparing ourselves

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Speaker 2: to the wrong people or for the wrong reasons, or

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Speaker 2: we're comparing something that can't really be changed, so you know,

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Speaker 2: you might see what on social media, it's usually you're

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Speaker 2: comparing yourself to someone that you wouldn't have even known

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Speaker 2: existed before social media, right, someone who's not on a

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Speaker 2: level playing field, has a completely different start in life,

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Speaker 2: completely different resources and set up, and usually the part

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Speaker 2: you're seeing of them is a very curated image that's

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Speaker 2: not even representative of what they're really like when they

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Speaker 2: wake up in the morning, all of those sort of things.

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Speaker 2: So it's just not a decent, fair comparison to make.

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Speaker 2: And you often comparing things that can't be changed, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I don't know your personality or certain talents or

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Speaker 2: how you look or those kind of things, and so

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Speaker 2: that is going to lead to really dark places or

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Speaker 2: you know, some time. Other comparisons that can be really

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Speaker 2: unhelpful as well, I think, are comparing yourself to people

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Speaker 2: that you're supposed to be in a relationship with, be

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Speaker 2: that family, friends, partners. As soon as you do that,

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Speaker 2: as soon as you start to compare yourself to someone

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Speaker 2: that you're trying to have some sort of relationship with,

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Speaker 2: you kind of put a scoreboard between you two, and

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Speaker 2: that means then whenever you experience a victory that's maybe

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Speaker 2: seen as a loss on their part, or whenever they

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Speaker 2: experience a personal victory, then you feel bad about it

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Speaker 2: or you feel like that means that you're somehow less

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Speaker 2: than them more that kind of thing, and that's so

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Speaker 2: disruptive to the relationship, right because you're suddenly in competition

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Speaker 2: as opposed to being on the same team and nurturing

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Speaker 2: each other and supporting each other.

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Speaker 1: So many things came into my head while you were

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Speaker 1: saying all those incredible things. The first thing was, it's

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Speaker 1: so interesting, isn't it, how we as humans will fixate

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Speaker 1: on the things that we can't control over the things

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Speaker 1: that we can control, And alway, think about that because

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Speaker 1: when you say, you know, there are so many things

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Speaker 1: where you're comparing yourself, you know, against people or situations

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Speaker 1: that you were never put in, like you didn't have

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Speaker 1: the same start as that person did. And so many

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Speaker 1: times we're fixated and can completely obsess over these parts

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Speaker 1: of our life that we can't control, which takes away

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Speaker 1: all the energy to actually be able to put into

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Speaker 1: the parts of our life that we can control and

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Speaker 1: feel good about. And you know, one I wonder why

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Speaker 1: we have that psychology because in my mind, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: when it makes more sense for us to focus on

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Speaker 1: the things that we feel like we can control and

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Speaker 1: that we can change in our life. So why do

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Speaker 1: you think it is that we end up doing the

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Speaker 1: opposite and kind of put ourselves in a position where

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Speaker 1: we actually feel helpless.

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Speaker 2: I think we just have that ability and that tendency

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Speaker 2: to compare, But your brain only has so much information

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Speaker 2: to go on, and so it won't necessarily be as

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Speaker 2: refined as only comparing against things that are helpful, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we have to sort of be aware

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Speaker 2: of it and take.

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Speaker 3: Of our attention in that way.

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Speaker 2: And so when you know you're comparing yourself in a

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Speaker 2: way that is having a negative impact, then shifting the

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Speaker 2: sort of trajectory of your attention towards things that are

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Speaker 2: helpful and because actually you can use that skill to

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Speaker 2: be able to compare to your advantage hugely, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you I don't know, let's say you want to

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Speaker 2: get better at public speaking, and you know, if you

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Speaker 2: sort of compare your just beginning in your journey and

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Speaker 2: you compare yourself to someone who's towards the latter end

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Speaker 2: of their journey, so they've mastered it all, they've had

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Speaker 2: all the achievements, and you make that comparison, that's generally

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Speaker 2: going to be fairly unhelpful because you're going to feel

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Speaker 2: like you're just it's unachievable, it's so far to go.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if you take someone who might be, you know,

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Speaker 2: half a dozen steps ahead of you, and they do

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Speaker 2: something well that you are specifically trying to improve on,

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Speaker 2: then you can hone in on that very concrete, specific

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Speaker 2: thing and you can analyze it so you can kind

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Speaker 2: of earn that sort of envy into inspiration.

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Speaker 3: Really, so, how do they do that thing really well

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Speaker 3: that I want to do really well?

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Speaker 2: And you can break it down and you can be

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Speaker 2: very concrete about it, and then you turn that comparison

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Speaker 2: into an action. And I think that's the real key

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Speaker 2: is if your comparison turns into you feeling terrible, culling

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Speaker 2: up on the sofa, wishing you as someone else, that's

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Speaker 2: no good for you orreas if the comparison turns into

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Speaker 2: a plan of action so that's actually going to improve

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Speaker 2: your life, then that's a pretty good skill to have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I was thinking while you were saying

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Speaker 1: that that it's basically turning comparison into admiration and education,

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Speaker 1: Like you're turning it into Okay, how can I really

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Speaker 1: admire this person? Actually, what I'm feeling is admiration because

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Speaker 1: their skill set is incredible and I want to be

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Speaker 1: at that level. But then how can I get to

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Speaker 1: that level? It's education, so I also learn from that

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Speaker 1: person and turn them into a teacher rather than somebody

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Speaker 1: that I am trying to become. How can I also

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Speaker 1: become just as good as them by learning from the

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Speaker 1: steps that they've taken because they are so far ahead

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Speaker 1: of me in that game, you know. I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: comparison can get to a very toxix stage, which is envy,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's jealousy, which is where you're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I really want to be like that person,

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Speaker 1: and I think they're great and I want to be

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Speaker 1: like them, But then envy is kind of like I

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Speaker 1: want to be like them, but I also don't want

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Speaker 1: them to have it. And if there is someone who

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Speaker 1: is at their stage of feeling quite envious about other

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Speaker 1: people and feeling really down about their life, what are

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Speaker 1: some practical steps that people can take to turn away

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Speaker 1: from that envy or really train their mind away from

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Speaker 1: that mindset.

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Speaker 2: I think that often happens when people become slightly detached

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Speaker 2: from their own values, or maybe they just aren't really

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Speaker 2: aware of what those are. So you're so focused on

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Speaker 2: looking to others for how you should be living your

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Speaker 2: life or what you should be working towards, and without

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Speaker 2: really questioning whether that's going to be any good for you.

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Speaker 2: There's a really great exercise that I used to do

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Speaker 2: in therapy with people that I continue to do on

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Speaker 2: a regular base myself, and that's because it's just really

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Speaker 2: centering and really helpful, and it's really simple. So you

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Speaker 2: can get a piece of paper and you just split

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Speaker 2: the piece of paper up into lots of different boxes,

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Speaker 2: and each one is a different area of your life.

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Speaker 2: So you might have health, marriage, parenting, friendship, education, lifelong learning,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is, all of those different things, all the

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Speaker 2: different parts of your life, and then in each box

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Speaker 2: you fill in some words about what matters most to

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Speaker 2: you in that area of your life. So not you

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Speaker 2: what you want to get, not what you want to

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Speaker 2: happen to you, but how you want to show up

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Speaker 2: the kind of person you want to be in that

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Speaker 2: area of your life in good times and bad, and

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Speaker 2: then from there you get this idea of it might

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Speaker 2: be a few words or sentences, but it's this kind

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Speaker 2: of vision of how you want to be living.

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Speaker 3: So you kind of rate then each box.

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Speaker 2: I would rate it out of ten, really crude, So

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Speaker 2: like you know, ten out of ten is the most

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Speaker 2: important thing to me, zero not at all. And you

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Speaker 2: get all those scores and then you rate them again,

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Speaker 2: but this time how much I feel I'm living in

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Speaker 2: line with those values that I've just set out in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks or the last month. And

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Speaker 2: then what you get is these scores that show you

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Speaker 2: which way to put your attention. So if something if

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Speaker 2: you scored something as ten out of ten important to you,

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Speaker 2: let's say your health, it's ten out of ten important

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Speaker 2: to you, but you've then put it as two out

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Speaker 2: of ten in terms of how much you're living in

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Speaker 2: line with the values you just set out. Then it's

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Speaker 2: just a really good indication of this area of your

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Speaker 2: life needs your attention. And I think you have to

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Speaker 2: be careful not to turn it into self criticism.

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Speaker 3: Yes, because the.

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Speaker 2: Key is that Okay, there are so many different areas

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Speaker 2: of your life. You can't score ten out of ten

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Speaker 2: on everything all of the time. So life will pull

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Speaker 2: you in different directions. So let's say if I have

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Speaker 2: a big project on at work or you know, releasing

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Speaker 2: the book things like that, I get really busy and

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Speaker 2: there's lots going on and probably not doing all the

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Speaker 2: sort of parenting things that I want to be doing

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Speaker 2: at that time, and so that score might go down,

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Speaker 2: and this one might be really high.

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Speaker 3: But that's just an indication of me to.

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Speaker 2: Go, Okay, now I know where I need to go

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Speaker 2: for the next few months and just really nurture this

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Speaker 2: side of my life and health and things like that

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Speaker 2: might come up as well. So it just enables you

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Speaker 2: to just keep not necessarily balanced, because that suggests that

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Speaker 2: you're kind of everything's perfect. It's more of a harmony

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Speaker 2: of movement or just being aware of where you're being

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Speaker 2: pulled away from that matters to you so that you

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Speaker 2: can return to it. And so when we look at

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Speaker 2: that in terms of envy, I think we can easily

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Speaker 2: get caught up in envy without realizing that that thing

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Speaker 2: that looks shiny and great, maybe it isn't all it's

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Speaker 2: cracked up to be. But also maybe it doesn't even

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Speaker 2: feature on our own values list. You can get caught

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Speaker 2: up in a feeling and then when you look at

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Speaker 2: your values sometimes it can bring you back to center

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Speaker 2: and make you realize, well, actually that was kind of

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Speaker 2: not warranted or proportionate. It was just a moment of

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Speaker 2: seeing something that looked pretty for a while or shiny

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Speaker 2: and created that desire for a moment that doesn't really feature.

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Speaker 1: Also, I think when you do thatctice, which by the way,

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Speaker 1: I think is incredible, I think you then end up

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Speaker 1: seeing where you feel disheartened in your life and where

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Speaker 1: you feel like you feel disconnected. And often where we

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Speaker 1: feel like we're failing in our own life is where

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Speaker 1: we end up comparing ourselves to in other ways with

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Speaker 1: other people.

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Speaker 4: And so actually, if you.

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Speaker 1: Focus on what do I feel discontent and in my

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Speaker 1: life right now, because usually when you feel discontent is

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Speaker 1: when you end up having negative thoughts or those envious

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Speaker 1: or geedosis. That's how that's if I think about myself,

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Speaker 1: those are the times that I felt I had those

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Speaker 1: negative thoughts about other people. It's when I'm actually not

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Speaker 1: focusing on the things that I want to not achieving,

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Speaker 1: the things that I want to putting in, the energy

365
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Speaker 1: in the places I want to, being distracted in the

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Speaker 1: spaces where I shouldn't be, and then I feel disappointed

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Speaker 1: with myself. And because of that, I then see other

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Speaker 1: people succeeding in areas, but I also don't see the

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Speaker 1: work that they're putting in and the time that they're

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Speaker 1: putting in and the energy they're putting into the right

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Speaker 1: areas in their life. And so for me, it's always

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Speaker 1: been a good indication of when I feel envy or

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Speaker 1: jealousy or anything like that, where am I feeling discontent

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Speaker 1: in my own life?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a real sort of misconception

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Speaker 2: out there that when you have an uncomfortable emotion that

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to get rid of it, or that it

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Speaker 2: says something about you that you're even feeling it, And

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Speaker 2: it doesn't is information, you know, it's your brain saying,

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Speaker 2: hang on, look at this for a minute. And so

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Speaker 2: if we're willing to that's a lot of what happens

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Speaker 2: in therapy actually is taking people from judging themselves for

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Speaker 2: even experiencing an emotion to just letting go of the

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Speaker 2: judgment and then turning back towards that feeling with curiosity,

385
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Speaker 2: wasn't that interesting that feeling came up? What's going on there?

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Speaker 2: What's the context around that? And so, like you say,

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Speaker 2: whether it's envy or jealousy or anything else, you're then

388
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Speaker 2: free to look at Okay, well, does that indicate that

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Speaker 2: there's something I need to work on for myself? So

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Speaker 2: that I would feel a bit better about that? And Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just so so much more productive to connect with

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Speaker 2: emotions in that way rather than try to numb them

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Speaker 2: or judge ourselves for having them. They're not who we are,

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Speaker 2: They're an experience, and so when we're willing to look

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Speaker 2: at them in that way, it's so much easier to

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Speaker 2: learn from them and use all the advantages that they

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Speaker 2: bring us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said this in the book, and I really

399
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Speaker 1: liked it. You said, resentment is not a reflection of

400
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Speaker 1: what the world owes you, it's a sign of what

401
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Speaker 1: you need to work on. And that just it's like

402
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 1: the perfect conclusion to what we've just been speaking about.

403
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Speaker 1: Resentment is not a reflection of what the world owes you.

404
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: It's a sign of what you need to work on,

405
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Speaker 1: and as soon as you start thinking about life in

406
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Speaker 1: that way, it just constantly.

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Speaker 4: Comes back to you.

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Speaker 1: I think that's sometimes when we get stuck in victim mindset too,

409
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Speaker 1: where you're like, this is wrong in my life, and

410
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Speaker 1: this is wrong in my life, and this person did

411
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Speaker 1: this to me. And actually most of those things are

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Speaker 1: coming into your life for you to learn a lesson

413
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Speaker 1: about you. Yeah, and as soon as you if you

414
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Speaker 1: constantly come back to that narrative, not saying that you

415
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Speaker 1: have to be, like you said, not judgmental in yourself,

416
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Speaker 1: but every experience is teaching you a lesson, whether it's

417
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Speaker 1: happening to you or whether you're creating that experience, it's

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Speaker 1: all there for that purpose.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, that was beautiful.

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Speaker 1: The next one that really, you know, shouted out to

422
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Speaker 1: me was when your friends are not your friends.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so open when.

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Speaker 1: Your friends are not your friends? How do you know

425
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Speaker 1: when it's time to let go of a friendship? Like,

426
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Speaker 1: do you have clear signs in your eyes where you're like,

427
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 1: these are the signs where you know what this friendship

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Speaker 1: is probably no longer useful in your life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think I think this is a big one, and

431
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Speaker 2: actually something I've been asked about a lot since putting

432
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Speaker 2: it into the book. Is that we were kind of

433
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Speaker 2: taught as kids, you know, friends are forever, that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing that if it's a you know, a perfect friendship,

435
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Speaker 2: it will last forever, it will always be good, there

436
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Speaker 2: will never be ups and downs or difficulties. And the

437
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Speaker 2: truth is that people change as they grow and move

438
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Speaker 2: through different chapters of their life. And when I talked

439
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Speaker 2: about that values exercise, the reason I do that on

440
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Speaker 2: a fairly regular bait, you know, every few months or so,

441
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: it's because values changed depending on what you're going through

442
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 2: in your life at that point. Those sorts of things

443
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 2: like changes in your values and what matters to you

444
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,880
Speaker 2: also changes friendships and relationships from both sides.

445
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 3: So I think this is.

446
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 2: A it feels like a new area of conversation that

447
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: people haven't really been having before around is it okay

448
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 2: to end a friendship if it's not healthy or you know,

449
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: especially if you've known someone since since you were a child.

450
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,360
Speaker 2: We hold onto those friendships because there are old friends

451
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 2: and we should know.

452
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 1: Us from like back in the day. Yeah, they're no

453
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: a version of us that no one else knows.

454
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 2: And even sometimes that I think the signs that a

455
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: friendship might not be healthy can be so subtle.

456
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 3: It's not like a sort.

457
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,880
Speaker 2: Of one big red flag and then you think, right,

458
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 2: that needs to end because this is not okay. I

459
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 2: think it often comes very gradually and subtly over.

460
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 3: Time in the in sort of feelings.

461
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: You know, it's the feeling you get when you walk

462
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,119
Speaker 2: away from a friendship group and you think, ah, they

463
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: were going to stop.

464
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 3: Talking about me now, or do they really like me?

465
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 2: Or why am I being excluded from this or that

466
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: or the other, and and so there's lots of kind

467
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 2: of subtle signs, or maybe you start to realize that

468
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: you can't really share positive information about it, like maybe

469
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 2: things are going well for you in your career or whatever,

470
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 2: you know, relationship, but you realize that information is not welcome.

471
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 3: People don't want to.

472
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 2: Hear it, or it's followed up with kind of praise

473
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: that feels like insult under the surface. Or maybe you're

474
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: sharing something that you're going through negatively and you're making

475
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,919
Speaker 2: a bid for connection, right, You're looking for support, but

476
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: it's met with a sort of one upmanship of oh,

477
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: well I had it much worse, and so that bid

478
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 2: for connection is kind of squashed by someone who doesn't

479
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 2: want to hear that either, And so then you find

480
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 2: yourself censoring yourself in your friendships and just doesn't feel

481
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: like a safe environment to be anymore. Well, you don't

482
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 2: feel like you can fully be yourself because if you are,

483
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be accepted. And those sorts of indications. It's

484
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: sort of kind of a mixture. It's like a big

485
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: soup of subtle signs and feelings, isn't it. And so

486
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 2: that's why in the book, in that chapter, I kind

487
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 2: of make it really clear that you don't make any

488
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: rash decisions when it comes to me, because it's your life,

489
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 2: right And friendships are so important, and not only friendships,

490
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 2: but good quality friendships. And so you could have a

491
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: good quality friendship, but your friend could be going through

492
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: a rough time exactly and not be at the best

493
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 2: for a while, And so we have to be able

494
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: to tolerate that in the way that we would want

495
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: them to tolerate us not being at our best, but

496
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: also looking after our own sort of well being at

497
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: the same time.

498
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think red flags make it almost easier to

499
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, this is the end of a friendship.

500
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, when I was reading that, I've been through

501
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: so many moments in my life where, you know, some

502
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: of my bestest friends from childhood, we've had to have periods,

503
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: maybe years in between, where we just don't speak, not

504
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: because anything drastic has happened, or if we just aren't

505
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: connecting and the connection is based on our past selves

506
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: and everything is based on the past and not the

507
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 1: present or the future, and we end up meeting, but

508
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: there's no true connection. It's purely nostalgia. And I think

509
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: there is an element to nostalgia which I think is

510
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: really beautiful and wonderful when you think about all the

511
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: times you've had together. But when it's only that and

512
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: you're not able to connect as who you are now

513
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: and you have to keep going back to these versions

514
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: of yourself that you used to be. For me, that

515
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: ended up being a sign, and so I had a

516
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: choice to make. I was like, Okay, either we try

517
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: to reconnect as the new people that we are now

518
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: or the friendship is pretty much withering away. And so

519
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: with some of them, because I felt like it was

520
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 1: worth the investment, I was like, I want to get

521
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: to know you again, like brand new, not the people

522
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: we were ten years ago. I want to know what

523
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: do you like to read now? Like what type of

524
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: person you? How do you want me to communicate with you?

525
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: It really is like a relationship, And when you think

526
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: about it in that way, you know, with me and

527
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: my husband, we've been through so many different versions of

528
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: ourselves as we've been together, and there's only so many

529
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: people that you can make the time investment to truly

530
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: get to know each other over and over again, and

531
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: so it's actually quite na for friendships to wither away

532
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: because there's only so much time.

533
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 4: We have.

534
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: A lot of that is focused on trying to make

535
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: sure your one relationship that you're in is remaining stable

536
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: and the connection is staying good. And then after that

537
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: you may have your family members and then so friends.

538
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: It's almost like you have to pick the few that

539
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: you really want to invest those moments in because you

540
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: can't have more than that. It's so impossible to invest

541
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: that time into so many more people. I think that

542
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: that part is the ebbs and flows of allowing the

543
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: friendship to leave if it needs to leave at that

544
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: moment in time, but also knowing that there may be

545
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: a time where it comes back, even stronger, and I've

546
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: had that so many times in my life, and it

547
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: actually has been better the second time around, where we

548
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: needed that time apart for us to reconnect again.

549
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: And it's knowing that that's okay.

550
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: Isn't exactly you can have different chapters of your life

551
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: where because a lot of friendships are also really based

552
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: around circumstance, So you know, if you're both in that

553
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 2: same chapter of your life at the same time, then

554
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: you might spend lots of time together at that point,

555
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 2: and that's okay. But then it's equally okay to I

556
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 2: love those friendships where maybe you have a certain few

557
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: chapters in your life where you don't see each other,

558
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: and then when you come back together again, it's like

559
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: that time never happened. You're just straight back into it.

560
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: And it's wonderful and it's lovely to have those kind

561
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 2: of connections. But I think when we set friendship up

562
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 2: around all of these kind of rules and you know,

563
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: it has to be this and we have to see

564
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: each other this much, and we have to phone each

565
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: other all the time and we have to yeah, yeah,

566
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: and that's when it's so sort of almost overly sensitive,

567
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: then too, isn't it that it becomes an unsafe environment

568
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: because there are so many things we can get wrong.

569
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: Yes, the situational part is so true. It's like I

570
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: had friends that I grew up with and then some

571
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: of them started having children way earlier than some of

572
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: our other friends were, and so naturally the way that

573
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: you can spend time together shifts, or the times that

574
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: you can spend time together shifts. And it's not that

575
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: any of us fell like out of love with each

576
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: other as friends. It was just that the situations were

577
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: not allowing us to connect in the same way. And so,

578
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: but I get a lot of messages from people's saying

579
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: my friends whenever I do a podcast to do with friendship,

580
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: my friends like, I had a baby, and I feel

581
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: so alone now because all my friends don't have children,

582
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: and now I feel disconnected. They're all going out doing things,

583
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: and I remember one of my friends felt like that too,

584
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: and now looking back, I was like, yeah, we could

585
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: have probably could have been a bit more sensitive to that.

586
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: But when you are not in that situation and it's

587
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: ninety percent of you are actually without a child and

588
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: that one friend has one, it's almost like it's so

589
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: difficult to put yourself in their position, but saying that

590
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: when the rest of our friends ended up getting children,

591
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: they were reconnected and had that relationship again. So I

592
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: do think situations can change. I have a lot of

593
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: single friends, and so the way that they spend time

594
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: together is really different to the way that I would

595
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: spend time with them. The conversations that they have are

596
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: really different to the conversations that I might be able

597
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: to participate in. And so, yeah, I think where you

598
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: are at in life can also really determine the type

599
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: of conversation and connection that you can have with friends.

600
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

601
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think when you start to kind of

602
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: sense that friendship might not be healthy, or someone might

603
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: not have your best interests at heart, or maybe the

604
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: trust is stop going because you know, you've had a

605
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: few of those sort of sarcastic comments or you know,

606
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: loaded comments that make you feel like, oh you don't

607
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: you're not happy about this, or you're not as trustworthy

608
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: as I thought you were. Then I think it's okay

609
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: to kind of take that slowly, isn't it, Because of

610
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: all those things about the different chapters and people change

611
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: and people going through different things. So you talk about

612
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 2: in the book, is watch and learn, just observe, take

613
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: it on board, don't ignore it. And it doesn't have

614
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: to be a big dramatic thing either. You could just observe,

615
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: note it, and keep learning about the person as they

616
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: reveal themselves to you. And because it might be a

617
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 2: bad patch, it might be that they're going through some stuff,

618
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: or it might be too much, you know, something that

619
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: you don't have to have.

620
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: In your life.

621
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: I also think sometimes when can get really close to

622
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: each other, there's this idea of being able to give

623
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: extremely raw feedback to someone, Like the criticism that you're

624
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: able to give, you think it's constructive, but sometimes it

625
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: can be kind of cruel. And so you know, I

626
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: don't know whether you have an opinion on this. Where

627
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: the difference between when you get close to somebody what

628
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: how to know the balance between whether the criticism that

629
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: you're actually giving is constructive.

630
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 4: Or whether it's actually just not your place to say anything.

631
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: I think that's something women struggle with more than men,

632
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: is the idea of oh, I have to tell you

633
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: my opinion, and I love you, and so why I'm

634
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: going to tell you what I think about this, this

635
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: and this, But sometimes giving your opinion isn't part of

636
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: the relationship that you have.

637
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, it's a really tough one

638
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: where a lot of and again there's lots of stuff online,

639
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: isn't there where it's sort of you know, if your

640
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: friend isn't supporting you and your girls, then ditch them,

641
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: and that kind of And actually, I think that sort

642
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: of neglects the nuance of what happens if your friend

643
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: is self distructing and going down a path that's not

644
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: good for them. That takes a really brave friend to say,

645
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: you're making their own decisions right, and let's pull it back,

646
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: because that kind of honesty and criticism's mortally honest.

647
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is what.

648
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: That person might need, but it also puts the whole

649
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: friendship at risk because they might say, don't want to

650
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: hear it. I'm on this path and if you don't

651
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: like it, you know, that's it. So I think there's

652
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: often that really difficult judgment call as to do I

653
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: just want to hold onto this friendship even though this

654
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: person might be making some really bad decisions for themselves,

655
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: or do I try and be a kind of positive

656
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: force for them, And that's such a hard decision to make.

657
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: And a really difficult conversation to have, even once you

658
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: have made the decision to say something, because the likelihood

659
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: of them listening is potentially fairly slim.

660
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: Also when it's to do with the other person's partner,

661
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: Like I I recently did a podcast all about friendship

662
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: with some of my other friends, and one of the

663
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: key things that came up in a poll was people

664
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: separating from friendships because of the other person's partner. And

665
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, I didn't realize that was such

666
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Where they've had they don't

667
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: believe that person should be with them, or they've had

668
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: bad interactions with that person and so don't want to

669
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: be around them and therefore can't be around their friend

670
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: as much. And so I think it's it's quite hard

671
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: for people to separate their friend from the person that

672
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: they're with, and that can be quite tricky.

673
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And all of those situations are just again, it's

674
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: that judgment call, isn't it. Of how useful is it

675
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: in this situation for me to be honest about it, right,

676
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: you know? Because you know, is it always useful to

677
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: have a big, dramatic ending to a relationship to a friendship,

678
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: or do we just accept that, you know, our lives

679
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: are going in different directions and so we're probably going

680
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: to see each other a little bit less, or when

681
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: we do see each other, probably not going to tell

682
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: them all the things that I would have trusted them

683
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: with in the past. And I think it's okay to

684
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: have both, isn't it Sometimes as a really significant end

685
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: point to a friendship and other times it might just

686
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: be a bit more kind of a gradual drifting, and

687
00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: that's okay.

688
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

689
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: You know. I think with the rise in how anxious

690
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: people are feeling nowadays, connecting in social situations can feel

691
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: really daunting, or you can come away from an event

692
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: or around your own friends and feel like you still

693
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: feel so disconnected and haven't had a meaningful conversation. For

694
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: people who feel really awkward in social situations, do you

695
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: have any tips or tricks for them of how to

696
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: actually connect and how to come away feeling like they've

697
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: had meaning in that interaction.

698
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: I think this is a huge one, actually, where so

699
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: much of it is around the focus of your attention.

700
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: So if someone is feeling socially awkward or socially anxious,

701
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: generally their attention will be focused inward, so it will

702
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: all be how am I coming across, What is this

703
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: other person thinking about me?

704
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: What did they think when I said that? Are they

705
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: judging me?

706
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: And it's all this kind of inward focus and self

707
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: adjustment that generates more and more anxiety in that situation,

708
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: whereas someone who is confident not so much focused on

709
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: how to avoid all the awkwardness and getting it wrong.

710
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: They're not really focused on that at all. They're focused

711
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: on the other person and getting to know them or

712
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: finding out certain things about them, or making them feel welcome.

713
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: And that's something that was really key for me in

714
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: the book was.

715
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: This idea of we often go into a situation and

716
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: we're scanning, and we're looking for someone who is going

717
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: to greet us and make us feel welcome and help

718
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: us feel calmer and more comforted. But most people are

719
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: probably in the same situation, right So, especially if it's

720
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: one of the events where everyone turns up kind of

721
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: on their own, you don't really know anybody.

722
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: Everyone's hoping that someone else does that for them.

723
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: And so something I'll talked about in their book was

724
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: about what if we were all going to go into

725
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: a situation and be the welcomer instead of waiting to

726
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: be welcomed, even if it's not your arena and it's not.

727
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: Your home or whatever.

728
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: Is going to someone and making it your mission to

729
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: make them feel welcome and make them feel interesting or

730
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: you know, have them walk away from you feeling ten

731
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 2: feet tall. And so because when we do that, the

732
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: same comes back. And because we're all just human, we're

733
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: all just waiting to feel welcomed and accepted. So a

734
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, if I'm working with

735
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: people who feel socially awkward or socially anxious, we work

736
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: on that kind of shift of attention from inward to outward,

737
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: but also this mission of action towards Okay, how can

738
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: I make other people feel a bit more comfortable, because

739
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: in the process you do that for yourself as well.

740
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you feel more useful in that situation

741
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: as well. I actually wrote that part down because every

742
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: lected don't wait to be welcomed, be the welcomer. When

743
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: I was feeling through it, and I was like, that's

744
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing to do for someone else when

745
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: you walk into an environment. And I started doing that

746
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: when I was started to going to lots of events

747
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: by myself. I would automatic say, did you come here alone?

748
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: I came here alone too. I was a little bit

749
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: nervous coming into here, but it's so nice that I

750
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: finally found someone that I can speak to or like,

751
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, kind of addressing the elephant in the room

752
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: helped well, because I was like, oh god, I was

753
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: really nervous too. I was meant to come with a friend,

754
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: but I ended up coming alone. And now and I

755
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: would always say, I usually find one person to stick to.

756
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: That person might be or like, you know, making a

757
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: joke or something that might not be useful for them.

758
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 4: They're like, God, I want to get rid of this girl.

759
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: But for me that made me feel comfortable because I

760
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: was kind of just sharing how I was feeling in

761
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: the moment and it wasn't just pent up inside of me.

762
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: And then it allowed the other person to also be

763
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: vulnerable and share too.

764
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's only through experience that we managed to

765
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: kind of acknowledge that. I I remember going to someone's

766
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 2: book claunch event on my own in London, and it

767
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: was the first time I'd ever done anything like that,

768
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: and I noticed in myself it's sort of almost cover

769
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 2: avoidance strategies. So I got there, I sort of nursed

770
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: my jacket for a while before some one took it

771
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: from me, and then I went to the bar and

772
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: I sort of spent time, you know, choosing my drink.

773
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 3: And really all of this was an.

774
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: Avoidance of finding interact to you, yeah, because then I

775
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: kind of held my drink and then I went off

776
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: to the bathroom there.

777
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

778
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: And it's all cover avoidance, isn't it.

779
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: It's all us trying to feel a bit safer from

780
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: that anxious feeling. And actually when up, you know, the

781
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: whole situation turned around for me in the moment that

782
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: I decided to just be brave and start a conversation

783
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: with someone, and you often find that that person is

784
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: also on their own or knows somebody. And I heard

785
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: an amazing story actually from a home about a group

786
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: of girls that all went out to a pub together

787
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: to have a little sociure and they're all giggling and

788
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: having some fun. And there was another woman in the

789
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: pub reading a book, and she had just moved to

790
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 2: the area, she didn't know anybody, and she looked over

791
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: and she could see these girls having fun together, and

792
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: she just did the bravest thing. She put her book down,

793
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: she walked over and she said, Hi, this is really

794
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: strange thing to do. I've never done this before, but

795
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: I've just moved to the area. I don't know anybody,

796
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: and you all seem like you're really fun.

797
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 3: Would you mind if I join you? And that was

798
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago.

799
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: She's now a really solid part of that friendship group,

800
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: just because of that moment that she was enough to

801
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: say to risk everybody kind of looking funny at her

802
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: and saying no, thank you. She was brave enough to say,

803
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: could I come and join you? This is my name,

804
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: what's yours? And from that developed really incredible human connections.

805
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: But I thought, how brave was that there was me

806
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: at that book launch, holding my drink and going to

807
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: the loutino anytimes, And I thought that was such an

808
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: inspiration to think it just if you're willing to have

809
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: that vulnerable moment in which you have to kind of

810
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: cultivate some real courage, the potential to develop friendships is huge.

811
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 4: It's creating these opportunities for connection.

812
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a lot of the times there aren't that

813
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: many opportunities, so you kind of have to be the

814
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: one to step out of your comfort zone to create

815
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: them for yourself. Yeah.

816
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: And if you're willing to kind of sit with that

817
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: feeling of the potential for someone to say no, thank you,

818
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 2: then you can always kind of cope with that afterwards

819
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: by acknowledging that it was a risk and if that

820
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: person is going to behave like that in response, they're

821
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: probably not for you anyway. So you've learned that quicker

822
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: than you perhaps want to go to.

823
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

824
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: The next area of your book is open when you

825
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: keep saying yes but want to say no. I think

826
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: you shared a quote that in the book that says,

827
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: when you say yes to others, make sure you're not

828
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: saying no to yourself. So how can someone get out

829
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: of the trap of people pleasing yeah, Because I think

830
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: that's also something many of us struggle with.

831
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I talk about it in that chatcha around

832
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: how the difficulty is not necessarily just with the word no.

833
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: It's with all the feelings that come with it, right,

834
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: And it's that sense of I am somehow responsible for

835
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: how they feel, and if they feel disappointment, that's my

836
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: fault and I need to be accountable for that and

837
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: or responsible for it, and so a lot of the

838
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: work that happens in therapy around sort of a lot

839
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: of ascertainness stuff happens in therapy actually, but a lot

840
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: of that work is around the feelings, you know, because

841
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: people say, well, well, I'll feel guilty if I say no,

842
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 2: and so it's the feeling of guilt that feels intolerable.

843
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: And as soon as you're willing to accept that guilt,

844
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: welcome it, acknowledge it, and take it with you, then

845
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: it can't hold you back. It's only if you're unwilling

846
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: to feel that sense of guilt that it becomes too

847
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: difficult to say no or to hold a boundary. And

848
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: if you have again, it comes back to the value stuff.

849
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 2: If you have clarity on your values, so you understand

850
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: why you're going to say no at this point, or

851
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: why you're going to hold a boundary, then it's much

852
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: easier to acknowledge that I'm going to feel guilty about it.

853
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 2: But that guilt doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong to

854
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: hold this boundary. That guilt might be an echo of

855
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: the past where maybe I grew up in a home

856
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: where you know, I was taught that if I said

857
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: no or I put myself first, that I got punished

858
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: for it maybe, or you know something that might have

859
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: taught you to feel guilty about putting yourself first, or

860
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: even not even putting yourself first, but putting yourself to

861
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: the same level as everybody else. Sometimes can feel filled

862
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: with guilt. But if you acknowledge that that emotion doesn't

863
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: have all the information, so it can be an echo

864
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: of the past then because the reason it can be

865
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: an echo of the past is that you know, your

866
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: brain is constantly taking information from the outside world and

867
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 2: inside your body about how to make meaning about what's

868
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: going on. But it will also take memories from the

869
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: past about when you felt similar or when something similar

870
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: is happening to help it make sense of what's going on.

871
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: And so everything that happened, you know, in childhood or

872
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 2: your early years, is still a part of the equation

873
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: today but might be unhelpful.

874
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: So if you can.

875
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: See that guilt as Okay, this is an echo of

876
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 2: my past, but it's not necessarily relevant to how I

877
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: want to live now, then we're able to kind of

878
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: scoop it up and take it with And I do

879
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: this because I always you see this metaphor of kind

880
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: of put it in your backpack, take it with you

881
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 2: so that it can't hold you back. And so if

882
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: you're willing to kind of take the guilt with you

883
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: knowing that it doesn't mean you're wrong to do this thing.

884
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: Sometimes you listen to Gil and it means you're wrong

885
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: about what you're doing. But it's if you're willing to

886
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: look at the feeling with curiosity, then you can decipher

887
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: whether it's warranted in this moment or whether it's from

888
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 2: the past.

889
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: You talk in your book about the I don't mind

890
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: kind of person, and I resonated with it so much

891
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: because I really really used to be that I don't

892
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: mind kind of person, where you know, what do you

893
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: want to eat? Oh, I don't really mind, what do

894
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: you want to I don't mind.

895
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 4: What do you want to do in life? I don't

896
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 4: really know. I don't really mind.

897
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 1: And at that time, it was it was me thinking

898
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm just so easy, like I'm such an easy person

899
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: to be around.

900
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 4: I can be.

901
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: Really flexible, and I don't really have my own desires

902
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: or opinions, and so in my mind it made me

903
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: seem like an easy person to be around, because if

904
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: I was an easy person to be around. Then you've

905
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: got no reason to leave or to not be my

906
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: friend or to not be my partner. I'm certainly thing

907
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: when I was reading it, because I've really worked on

908
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: that since, because it also made me someone who did

909
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: it have an opinion, and therefore if I don't have

910
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: an opinion, it felt like I lacked personality, and so

911
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: actually my personality became the people's personality around me. Oh

912
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: you want pizza, okay, yeah, I'm a pizza person too,

913
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: Or oh you want to watch that movie Okay, yeah,

914
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: I think I like that movie too, And so essentially

915
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: I was absorbing everybody else's opinions and personalities around me

916
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: without being it, because if you're not exerting your own personality,

917
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: it ceases to exist. And so constantly taking on other

918
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: people's narratives and what they liked and disliked, it was like, then,

919
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: who who am I? And it reminded me of what's

920
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: that movie where? Or maybe it's Rachel and Friends or

921
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: something where they say whenever she dates someone, she'd ended

922
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: up being being that kind of person, like whoever you

923
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: end up dating, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm you reade

924
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: Motorbikes I read motorbikes now too, or like you like

925
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: heavy metal music, I like heavy metal.

926
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 4: No, it's Julia Robertson in Runaway Bride.

927
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: Now you have al watched that, so you're almost a

928
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: chameleon who you're with.

929
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think it was just really a

930
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,479
Speaker 1: big light barb moment because I think there is this

931
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: idea that you should be able to be assertive without

932
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: feeling like you're being harsh, Like you can be assertive

933
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: without being aggressive, and I think I hadn't been able

934
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: to distinguish between the two. So for anybody who's trying

935
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: to create boundaries, like is there any advice that you

936
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: have for that and being able to be their own

937
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: person without feeling like they're being too harsh or aggressive

938
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: about it.

939
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I absolutely resonate with what you

940
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: kind of said.

941
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: I did a video I think it was a couple

942
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: of years back now about this idea that with the

943
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: kind of I don't mind type approach. But I had

944
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: this Jenger tower and I would I said, every time

945
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: you say I don't mind or you can choose, it's

946
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 2: like taking a piece out of the middle of the tower.

947
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: And then I said, well, but then when you get

948
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: to the point where you're on a stage in your

949
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 2: life where you have to make your own decisions or

950
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: you have to make you have your own preferences. And

951
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: I sort of then turned around the at the Junga tow,

952
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: which then was just full of holes. And then you

953
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: kind of think, I don't really know what my preferences

954
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: are because I've never had a chance to choose them,

955
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: or you know, I've never never given them the time

956
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: of day, and so, like you say, you then feel

957
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: a bit empty, like I don't really know what I

958
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: like or I don't know what I would choose on.

959
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: And I find it difficult to make decisions because I

960
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: always put those decisions onto other people. And it can

961
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: be a real path to resentment as well, because if

962
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: you're doing that and you're saying you know, you can

963
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: choose everything, then when those choices are wrong for you

964
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: and you don't have a nice experience or you know,

965
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't work out, then it's therefore.

966
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 4: You blame them. Yeah, I think I did that to

967
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: my husband at the beginning. Actually, yeah, but.

968
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: You told me I should go to this, because I

969
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: didn't actually tell you you have you had a choice.

970
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it, and then that feeling of resentment.

971
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 2: The quote that you came up with earlier about how

972
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: you know resentment isn't something that the world owes you,

973
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: it's that you know something that you need to work on.

974
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: I would say with this staff is look out for

975
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 2: those feelings of resentment because they're a sign that there

976
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: was some sort of boundary that wasn't held before.

977
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: You know that if you're not.

978
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: Asserting your own desires or wishes or needs and then

979
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: resenting your partner or your friend fulfilling the space for you,

980
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: then it comes back to Okay, well, what do you

981
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: want that's not this? And how are you willing to

982
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: advocate for yourself? And if you don't advocate for yourself

983
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: that you know that path into resentment bitterness is steep

984
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: and dark and not fun.

985
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 4: And then it's not good for you or the other person.

986
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: Like you think you're doing it for the other person, Yeah,

987
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: but actually it messes with that relationship too.

988
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

989
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

990
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: The next one that hit me hard was open this

991
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: when you want to win the argument, Emilio. Not that

992
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: that's an excuse, but I will say that I am

993
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: working on this a lot. I've gotten better, but so stubborn.

994
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: He was so stubborn an argument with someone who is

995
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: like my husband is the sweetest arguer, Like he has

996
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: zero desire to argue with me, even whether if he's wrong,

997
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: He will like apologize if I'm wrong, he will try

998
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: and like have the conversation in a really loving way.

999
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 4: And I'm there, hot headed, and I.

1000
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: Know I'm in the wrong, but for some reason, there

1001
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: is no part of me that wants to admit I'm

1002
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: in the wrong. And on top of that, I want

1003
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: to keep my argument going for as long as possible.

1004
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: And so you said, I was just there was a

1005
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: part in their way. He said, think very carefully before

1006
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: beating down your own team. When you fight with the

1007
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: people you love, the only person who thinks you look

1008
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: good in victory is you.

1009
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, that's so true.

1010
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 1: To those you defeat, the memory becomes less about how

1011
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: you turned out to be right and more about how

1012
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: you made them feel crushed, unheard and unloved. Their witness

1013
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: to how you were willing to be in the name

1014
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: of winning an argument will corrode their trust in you

1015
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: for a long time to come.

1016
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: And I was like, that is.

1017
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: If anything was going to stop me it'll be those ways.

1018
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's so true. It's so interesting how your

1019
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: ego can completely take over. Even with the person that

1020
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: you want to love the most, or even with the

1021
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: person that you never want to hurt, you end up

1022
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: trying to have an ego with them. And it's like

1023
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: there is no place for ego in love, but for

1024
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: some reason it shows up quite a bit.

1025
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's but and it's natural, isn't it.

1026
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: You know that's where you know, anger is that kind

1027
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: of last resort emotion almost where something is important to us,

1028
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: that's that's happened and you know, and we want to

1029
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: change it, and a big emotion has risen up. Then

1030
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: it makes sense that we we just want to be

1031
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: heard in that moment and we want things to go

1032
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: our way. And so that's very normal and human. And

1033
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: you know, even having written those words, I still you know,

1034
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 2: don't get that right. Every time I'm right, I'm right,

1035
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 2: and so you know, it's still human for that to happen.

1036
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: And I think that's key with all of this stuff,

1037
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 3: is that knowing it doesn't mean you will ever be

1038
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 3: perfect had it. It's just something.

1039
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: You know, humans are complex and so something that we

1040
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: always can remind ourselves of And that's why I kind

1041
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: of wanted to with both my books, actually wanted to

1042
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: write them as a dip in, dip out, be able

1043
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: to know what your scenario is, go straight to it

1044
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 2: and get the words that you need to here in

1045
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 2: the moment, and then get back out, not go cover

1046
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,959
Speaker 2: to cover re searching for something in the moment, because

1047
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: you just need I think so much of what we

1048
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 2: need in the moment when we're struggling is just something

1049
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: to shift our attention in the direction that's going to

1050
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: help us move through and out the other side. We

1051
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: don't need kind of you know, advice about you know, actually,

1052
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: if you'd just started mind from a six months ago,

1053
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: you'd be a right now, No, I just need to

1054
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: calm down right now. So often it's just that, you

1055
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: know that sometimes we have that person that says the

1056
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: right words in the moment, and sometimes we have to

1057
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: do that for ourselves, and it's really difficult to do

1058
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: that for ourselves. So I think that's where things like

1059
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: books can be really helpful. But if you can kind

1060
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 2: of shift your attention in the moment so that you

1061
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: can come back to some sort of baseline and remember

1062
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 2: what's important, and so you know, lines like that around actually,

1063
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: why why on earth would you want.

1064
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: To win this one? You know, if it's a fight.

1065
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: About I don't know, someone being laid home for dinner,

1066
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: but actually there's a person you want to spend your

1067
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: whole life with.

1068
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 3: It's just the perspective issues. It feels.

1069
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: Lots of things feel big in the moment, but when

1070
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: we have that ability to kind of put it at

1071
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: arm's length and see it for what it is, then feelings.

1072
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 3: About it can often shift.

1073
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: That's often an experience people would have in therapy a

1074
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: lot actually, where you know, they get to the end

1075
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: of a session they come in kind of steaming with

1076
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: lots of emotion, and the sessions that, oh, I.

1077
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 3: Kind of feel differently about it now.

1078
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: And it's just having that chance to shift perspective on

1079
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: things and see it from a kind of bird's eye

1080
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: view enables you to kind of just rejig your thoughts

1081
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: about it.

1082
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and taking time with it.

1083
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: I think we're so used to rushing through life, where

1084
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 1: whether it's our emotions they have to come out fast,

1085
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: or whether it's our decisions, we have to make them

1086
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: really fast. And so when we're in this constant feeling

1087
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: of fastness. You think every part of your life has

1088
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: to be fast, but actually most things done fast are

1089
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: not done well. And so taking especially with the things

1090
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: that you care about the most in your life, or

1091
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: the people that you care about the most in your life,

1092
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: it's the place where we should be giving space and

1093
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: time to make those decisions and have those emotions and

1094
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: think about it. Because the most amount of time that

1095
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: you spend on something is what matters in your life.

1096
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: And so the more time you spend on the people

1097
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: that you love and thinking about the way you're speaking

1098
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: to them, acting towards them determines everything.

1099
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 4: I think, shift and change everything.

1100
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1101
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 2: I mean, your relationships are such a huge part of

1102
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 2: your life, aren't they. So if you can make ten

1103
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: percent improvement on the person, on your relationship with the

1104
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 2: person you see every day, then you've improved a huge

1105
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 2: part of your life.

1106
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: This was the last one that I wanted to touch on,

1107
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 1: which was when it's hard be with yourself. When you're

1108
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: in a voice, is your own worst critic, you know,

1109
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: whether it's your physical appearance, whether it is again comparison,

1110
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: whatever those things are. I think having this inner critical

1111
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: voice can sometimes just completely take over. And so, do

1112
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: you have any tools or techniques that can help people

1113
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: create a different narrative in their mind about themselves, or

1114
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: do you have any specific tools or things that someone

1115
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: can do every single day to help shift that a

1116
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: little bit.

1117
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something quite key that's been a

1118
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: real game changer for me personally and for lots of

1119
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 2: people that I've worked with. A lot of people, even

1120
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: when they know they are highly self critical, they'll hold

1121
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: on to it for dear life and they'll so but

1122
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 2: it's the source of my success.

1123
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 3: It's why I get up.

1124
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 2: In the morning and get to work, and I don't

1125
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: want to or anything that makes me try harder. And

1126
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 2: they think that the only way to strive is through

1127
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: kind of fear of failure or you know, through a

1128
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: fear of not being good enough, things like that, And

1129
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 2: you can actually strive from a much more contented place

1130
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: where you also feel enough. But a lot of it

1131
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 2: is sort of convincing people of that, and sometimes it's

1132
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: also a misconception around the opposite of being a kind

1133
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: of bully to yourself in your own head. People imagine that,

1134
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: well that if I'm not doing that I'm just going

1135
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: to be self indulgent and I'm just going to let

1136
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: myself off the hook with things. And the difference between

1137
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: self compassion and self indulgence is quite kind of distinct.

1138
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 2: So let's say, let's say my daughter says, do you

1139
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 2: know what, I just don't feel like i'm to school today?

1140
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 3: Mean, I just I'm I'm tired. Indulgence might be saying, okay, well,

1141
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 3: we'll go when you feel like it. It's okay, just chill.

1142
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: That would be indulgence, right, But compassion would be saying, okay,

1143
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: I get that you're a bit tired today. It's tough sometimes,

1144
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 2: isn't it when you haven't slept. Well, here's the reason

1145
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: that going to school consistently is really really important. And

1146
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: so today we're going to do the really difficult thing,

1147
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: and we're going to go anyway, but then to we're

1148
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 2: going to have an early night, and then we're going

1149
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 2: to you know, make sure you're kind of feeling better tomorrow,

1150
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: and we're going to do the right thing. And so

1151
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: compassion is often doing the more difficult thing that has

1152
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: your best interests at heart for the future, right. And

1153
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: so when we're talking about that kind of that inner

1154
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,919
Speaker 2: voice and being kinder to yourself. It doesn't mean being

1155
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 2: indulgent or not being honest with yourself or letting yourself

1156
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: off the hook of anything. I always think of it

1157
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: as like, you know, if you're in a voice sounds

1158
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: more like a bully, that's going to be taking its

1159
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: toll on your mental health without a doubt. But if

1160
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 2: you can turn that voice into something that sounds more

1161
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: like a coach, you know, like every elite athlete wants

1162
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: to be their best. The way that they do that

1163
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: is by hiring a coach. They don't hire their high

1164
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: school bully to be their coach. They hire someone that

1165
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 2: they fully trust. Someone they know that we'll always be

1166
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: honest with them about when they're doing things right and

1167
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 2: when they're doing things wrong or when they're failing. They'll

1168
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: deliver that honesty with kindness and support and encouragement. And

1169
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: so someone who wants them to be at their best

1170
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 2: and achieve great things and has the same goals and values,

1171
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: and so someone will be able to kind of hauld

1172
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 2: them back up when they're on their knees and you know,

1173
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 2: send them out and when they're feeling scared and you know,

1174
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: do all those things, But we can kind of take

1175
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: that idea of the coach and apply that template to

1176
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: how we speak to ourselves.

1177
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 3: Right, So when I, you know.

1178
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 2: Little interrupt me kind of started doing things like live

1179
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: TV and the UK and stuff, it's like, oh my gosh,

1180
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: how am I going.

1181
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 3: To tolerate this?

1182
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: And the only way I was really able to put

1183
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: myself in that situation was when I fully committed to having.

1184
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 3: My own back if it all went wrong.

1185
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: Right, So it's not that it's only good if it's

1186
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 2: a success every time. It's that, okay, if something goes

1187
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 2: wrong and I fall over and flash my underwad the

1188
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 2: nation by accident, or humiliate myself, I am not going

1189
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 2: to be the one to kick myself when I'm down.

1190
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to say the things that to me that

1191
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 2: help me pull myself back up and carry on in

1192
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 2: the face of setbacks and failures and things like that.

1193
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: And it takes a lot of work, because if you

1194
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: have a sort of harsh inner critic, it didn't develop overnight.

1195
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: It took a lifetime to hone its craft. And so

1196
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 2: what we don't want to do is then become self

1197
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: critical about the fact that we're being self critical, and

1198
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: that's the whole circle. So it's acknowledging, Okay, this is

1199
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: turning around a lifetime of habit. It's going to take time,

1200
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: but I'm always going to have that idea in my

1201
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: mind about Okay, what's well, that's very critical. What would

1202
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: a coach say instead of that? What would if I

1203
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 2: had a coach that was following me around helping me

1204
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 2: be my best? What would they say in response to

1205
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 2: this situation? So then you can always consult it. You

1206
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 2: can always ask yourself what might sound a bit better

1207
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: than that and what would be the impact?

1208
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's good advice.

1209
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: Actually, I think it's again it's just a question of

1210
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: pausing and creating. It's almost like shifting the narrative from

1211
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: this is what I did say, and this is what

1212
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: I would like myself to say. Yeah, this is what

1213
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: I would say if it was somebody that I loved,

1214
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: and I'm somebody that I love, and this is what

1215
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: I should be saying to myself.

1216
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: And sometimes you'll go around the circle again, and do

1217
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 2: you know, old habits die hard, So you'll do those

1218
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: old cycles and that training, and sometimes you'll go the

1219
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 2: other way. And so the more you practice it, the

1220
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: easier it gets.

1221
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, thank you so much. This is such

1222
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 4: a brilliant conversation.

1223
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for your incredible books and

1224
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 1: all the information you're sharing with people online. I think

1225
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: you're helping so many in so many different ways. So

1226
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 1: thank you for being here.

1227
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.