WEBVTT - Camouflage Bias: Part 3

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, it's Jake. We've been hard at work on season

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<v Speaker 2>four of deep Cover. I can't say much about it yet,

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<v Speaker 2>but I will tell you this, it's a story you

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<v Speaker 2>won't want to miss. We'll be releasing it this spring.

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<v Speaker 2>But today we're back with an update on a story

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<v Speaker 2>from season two.

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<v Speaker 1>Back in twenty twenty two, we released a series called

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<v Speaker 1>Camouflage Bias, where we shared the story of Ronnie Kerascillo,

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<v Speaker 1>a man who is loosely connected to a case that

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<v Speaker 1>we covered in deep Cover season two, Mobland. Today we're

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<v Speaker 1>releasing this special bonus episode with an update on Ronnie's

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<v Speaker 1>case because there's some big news. If you haven't heard

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<v Speaker 1>the original episodes, you can go back and listen now.

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<v Speaker 1>We just re released them in our feed, so they're

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<v Speaker 1>the most recent two episodes you'll see just before this one. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>here's the update. I want to start with giving you

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<v Speaker 1>a brief refresher in Ronnie's case. In the late nineteen seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie Carascio went on trial for the murder of a

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<v Speaker 1>Chicago police officer named Terence Loftus.

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<v Speaker 3>I've seen everybody running round, so I so Galgias fired

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<v Speaker 3>a gun and isn't a breakof and they're gonna run.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just fired four shots and I left. I walked.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't run, I didn't know I shot anybody. I went,

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<v Speaker 3>walked up back in the house. I walked out the

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<v Speaker 3>back door, and I left.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen seventy eight, the judge in Ronnie's case ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>found him guilty of murder. I spoke with Michael Deutsch,

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<v Speaker 1>one of Ronnie's attorneys.

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<v Speaker 3>The judge gave you two hundred to six hundred years.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, did you say six hundred years?

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<v Speaker 2>Two hundred to six hundred years he gave him.

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<v Speaker 1>Michael thought that the timing of Ronnie's sentence was suspicious.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's why. He noted that just a few months prior,

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<v Speaker 1>the judge, Frank Wilson, had allegedly taken a bribe and

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<v Speaker 1>let a hitman walk free, a notorious hit man named

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<v Speaker 1>Harry Alamann. Point being, Michael believed the judge wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>make an example out of Ronnie to restore his own

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<v Speaker 1>reputation as a tough judge.

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<v Speaker 3>Wilson took ten thousand dollars to quit Harry Aloman, and

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<v Speaker 3>now he needed what's called compensatory bias.

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<v Speaker 1>Compensatory bias. That's this idea that a judge takes a

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<v Speaker 1>bribe in one case and then, to avoid suspicion, punishes

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<v Speaker 1>the hell out of another defendant in a separate case.

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<v Speaker 1>It's also called camouflage bias. After the verdict came down,

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie began serving out his two hundred to six hundred

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<v Speaker 1>year long sentence.

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<v Speaker 3>Wake up and realize, man, I'm in trouble.

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie filed some early appeals that went well nowhere.

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<v Speaker 3>That's my father. Don't buy no more appeals, don't find

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<v Speaker 3>no more lawyers. I go to the par boarder than

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<v Speaker 3>the season, and I shot this type of far away

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<v Speaker 3>there's no attention in it, and I'll make parole parole.

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie and his legal team thought that this would be

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<v Speaker 1>their best recourse, the best chance at getting Ronnie released,

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<v Speaker 1>But as we reported back in twenty twenty two, that

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<v Speaker 1>route has presented some challenges.

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<v Speaker 3>How many times have you been before parole board. I've

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<v Speaker 3>think thirty five times, at least thirty five times.

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<v Speaker 1>In the forty seven years that Ronnie's been incarcerated. He's

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<v Speaker 1>come close to being granted parole a few times. He's

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<v Speaker 1>even come within one vote of being set free, but

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<v Speaker 1>it hasn't happened, in part because there's been stiff opposition

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<v Speaker 1>from the police unions. Ronnie turned sixty five last year.

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<v Speaker 1>He spent nearly all of his adult life serving out

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<v Speaker 1>this sentence, but he's never given up hope that one

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<v Speaker 1>day he might be released. In this episode, we'll cover

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie's latest parole hearing, and we'll hear an update from him,

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<v Speaker 1>because since we last spoke with him, his story has

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<v Speaker 1>taken a very big turn. I'm Jake Calpern and this

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<v Speaker 1>is deep Cover. The last time I spoke with Ronnie,

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<v Speaker 1>he was still in prison and hoping that his next

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<v Speaker 1>parole board hearing would finally work out.

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<v Speaker 4>These hearings are a very big deal. We bring seventy

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<v Speaker 4>eighty people with us from Chicago to come and show

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<v Speaker 4>support for the hearing, which takes place in Springfield.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Jennifer Soble. She's the executive director of the Illinois

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<v Speaker 1>Prison Project, a nonprofit that represents incarcerated people. She's represented

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie for the last few years when he appeared before

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<v Speaker 1>the parole board.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, at five am, we all get in

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<v Speaker 4>our cars, get in our buses, and our vans, and

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<v Speaker 4>we piled them to Springfield.

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer and a gaggle of Ronnie's supporters show up at

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<v Speaker 1>the hearing, and on that particular day, Jennifer had a

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<v Speaker 1>special guest.

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<v Speaker 4>The person sitting next to me who was going to

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<v Speaker 4>argue that Ronnie should be released was Tom Breen, who

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<v Speaker 4>prosecuted Ronnie in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>Tom agreed to help advocate for Ronnie's freedom. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>he told Jennifer that he expected and had hoped that

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie would have been paroled decades ago. So here was

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecutor who'd put Ronnie in prison, now he was

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<v Speaker 1>telling the parole board to let him out. Tom said

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<v Speaker 1>that he was quote astounded that mister Karraschio hasn't been

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<v Speaker 1>paroled yet. Tom Brain's attendance there that day was a

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<v Speaker 1>big deal, But Jennifer told me what was even more

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<v Speaker 1>striking was who wasn't at this meeting.

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<v Speaker 4>The members of the Prisoner Review Board sort of started

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<v Speaker 4>whispering to each other, and it became very clear, very

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<v Speaker 4>quickly that something was wrong. There were no police officers,

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<v Speaker 4>the Eternal Order of Police wasn't there. It was just

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<v Speaker 4>us and Ronnie supporters.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember, Ronnie had been convicted of the murder of a

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<v Speaker 1>police officer, and representatives of the Fraternal Order of Police

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<v Speaker 1>had followed Ronnie's case carefully. I'm not going to get

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<v Speaker 1>into their stance in detail here, but if you're interested

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<v Speaker 1>in more background, we included more on them in the

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<v Speaker 1>original episodes about this case. Anyway, as you may recall,

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<v Speaker 1>every few years when Ronnie was eligible for parole, they

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<v Speaker 1>would pack into the hearing room to object to his release,

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<v Speaker 1>except on that day when no one from the organization

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<v Speaker 1>was there. It seemed like someone had forgotten to tell them.

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<v Speaker 4>And so what the parole board did, over my strenuous

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<v Speaker 4>objection is they I'm doing air quotes here. They bifurcated

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<v Speaker 4>the hearing.

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<v Speaker 1>The parole board decided mid meeting to bifurcate the hearing,

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<v Speaker 1>split it in two, and here's how that played out.

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<v Speaker 1>On that day, Ronnie's side made its case. Jennifer told

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<v Speaker 1>the board that the teenager who entered prison over forty

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<v Speaker 1>years ago was a different person now. She told them

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<v Speaker 1>that he fully admits to his crime and that Ronnie

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<v Speaker 1>has even been hand picked to move into a re

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<v Speaker 1>entry center to prepare him for life on the outside.

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<v Speaker 1>And then A few months later, the board convened again

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<v Speaker 1>for a second meeting, one that ended up being well

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<v Speaker 1>attended by the police union, and in the months in between,

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<v Speaker 1>some people left the board, new members joined, new members

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<v Speaker 1>who never heard from Jennifer or the prosecutor about why

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie should be granted parole, and in the end the

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<v Speaker 1>result was still the same. Another dead end for Ronnie.

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<v Speaker 4>Was an extremely frustrating hearing, and at the end of

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<v Speaker 4>that hearing, the vote I believe was eight to one

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<v Speaker 4>against parole. It wasn't even closed. I like, eternally the

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<v Speaker 4>optimist was like, we're gonna get him out this year.

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<v Speaker 4>I really had fate that we would be able to

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<v Speaker 4>make this system work for Ronnie, and so that denial

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<v Speaker 4>was a pretty crushing blow.

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<v Speaker 1>Who breaks this news to Ronnie?

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<v Speaker 4>I do. It was awful. It was really awful. But

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<v Speaker 4>Ronnie has walked this line between optimism and realism for

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<v Speaker 4>forty seven years and he was not surprised. I think

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<v Speaker 4>he was extremely disappointed, and in like very like typical

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<v Speaker 4>Ronnie fashion, He's like, onto the courts, let's get to

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<v Speaker 4>the next So he was already ready to do the

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<v Speaker 4>next thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie's chances that parole seemed even slimmer than before. His

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<v Speaker 1>legal team realized he needed a plan B, and in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>they'd already been pursuing that plan B for some time,

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<v Speaker 1>knowing full well that the whole parole board thing might

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<v Speaker 1>never work out, and that Plan B was to use

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<v Speaker 1>the courts to petition the state of Illinois to overturn

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<v Speaker 1>Ronnie's original sentence. Ronnie's attorneys made the case that since

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<v Speaker 1>he was barely eighteen at the time of the crime,

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<v Speaker 1>that should be taken into consideration today. They i argued

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<v Speaker 1>that he should be re sentenced not as an adult,

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<v Speaker 1>but as a juvenile.

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<v Speaker 4>People in this eighteen to twenty six twenty seven to

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<v Speaker 4>twenty eight range are often called In the social sciences,

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<v Speaker 4>they're called emerging adults because although they're physically vague and

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<v Speaker 4>they often act a lot like adults, their neurocognitive development

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<v Speaker 4>is not done.

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<v Speaker 1>The state opposed a new sentence for Ronnie. Their argument

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<v Speaker 1>was Ronnie had a shot at release parole, and as

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<v Speaker 1>long as he did well, he shouldn't be granted a

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<v Speaker 1>new sentence, and the court agreed with this. Ronnie's legal

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<v Speaker 1>team appealed that decision. It took time, but Eventually, a

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<v Speaker 1>panel of three judges heard their appeal. By then it

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<v Speaker 1>was the summer of twenty twenty three. Ronnie had just

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<v Speaker 1>been denied parole in that eight to one vote. After

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<v Speaker 1>the bifurcated hearing that I just told you about, Ronnie's

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<v Speaker 1>legal team argued that this latest denial was proof that

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<v Speaker 1>he had no real shot at parole, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>why he needed a new sentence.

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<v Speaker 4>Ronnie just went before the parole board. He's never gotten

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<v Speaker 4>out before, and now his book count is going down.

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<v Speaker 4>He had this great hearing, he had the prosecutor who

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<v Speaker 4>prosecuted him saying he should get out. Parole is not

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<v Speaker 4>meaningful for Ronnie. For Ronnie, parole is a sham.

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<v Speaker 1>The panel of judges heard Ronnie's appeal. They heard about

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<v Speaker 1>his childhood, about his years in prison, and about the

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<v Speaker 1>many times that he'd appeared before the Illinois Prisoner Review Board.

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<v Speaker 1>And then one day they reached a decision.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm in my office and I get an email from Chick,

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<v Speaker 4>Ronnie's appellate layer, saying that the court has agreed with

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<v Speaker 4>us that parole is meaningless in this context, that Ronnie

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<v Speaker 4>should at least have the opportunity to be treated like

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<v Speaker 4>a juvenile and that the matter was going to be

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<v Speaker 4>remanded back to the trial court.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the moment when it becomes clear to you that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe this is going to happen.

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<v Speaker 4>When the judge said, all right, well, let's get this

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<v Speaker 4>on the calendar next week. He's waited long enough, That's

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<v Speaker 4>when I knew. That's when I hoped, thanks for real.

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<v Speaker 1>When the judge said let's get this on the calendar,

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<v Speaker 1>he's talking about a new sentence for Ronnie as in

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<v Speaker 1>it's time. We'll be right back. On October eighteenth, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three, yet another hearing was held. The appellate court

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<v Speaker 1>had thrown out Ronnie's two hundred to six hundred year sentence.

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<v Speaker 1>The judge at this hearing will determine what his new

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<v Speaker 1>sentence would be.

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<v Speaker 4>It was absolutely packed was Ronnie's friends and families, but

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<v Speaker 4>several members of the parole board who had been fighting

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<v Speaker 4>for his release for years came to the hearing, which

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<v Speaker 4>was just unbelievable. The hearing was short. Jos Maldonato had

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<v Speaker 4>already heard hours and hours days in fact of testimony

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<v Speaker 4>about how incredible Ronnie was. The judge rules from the

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<v Speaker 4>bench and sentenced him to forty seven years, and the

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<v Speaker 4>courtroom just exploded.

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<v Speaker 1>Forty seven years. Ronnie had been incarcerated since nineteen seventy six,

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<v Speaker 1>so this new sentence amounted to time served, meaning Ronnie

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<v Speaker 1>would be released right away.

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<v Speaker 4>People are crying. I was crying. I think all the

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<v Speaker 4>words were crying. Ronnie was really still. I don't think

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<v Speaker 4>that he had fully taken it in, or maybe wasn't

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<v Speaker 4>ready to trust it until he was released, which happened

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<v Speaker 4>later that day. Yeah, it was amazing. It was one

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<v Speaker 4>of the most I asked things I've wetnessent apart.

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<v Speaker 1>In late October of last year, I got a text

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<v Speaker 1>from Ronnie's brother telling me that Ronnie was home. I

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't quite believe it, not until I actually heard directly

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<v Speaker 1>from Ronnie.

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<v Speaker 3>Ronnie, Yes, sir, how are you well? I'm just my

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<v Speaker 3>brain camera's just taken in off kind of new things,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, started from scrash, like kindergarten or something.

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to Ronnie on the phone in late December

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<v Speaker 1>and we talked about the lead up to his release.

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<v Speaker 1>For the last year before getting out, Ronnie had been

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<v Speaker 1>held in a lower security facility known as a re

0:14:52.876 --> 0:14:53.476
<v Speaker 1>entry center.

0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:58.276
<v Speaker 3>They placed me in there to get basically like re established,

0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:01.756
<v Speaker 3>learn a little computers, learn how to say hello again.

0:15:01.836 --> 0:15:04.556
<v Speaker 3>You know, when you're in a maximum setting for so

0:15:04.676 --> 0:15:07.836
<v Speaker 3>many years, you basically lose out to say good morning

0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:09.036
<v Speaker 3>or good afternoon.

0:15:09.716 --> 0:15:12.116
<v Speaker 1>Ronnie told me that living in this re entry center

0:15:12.396 --> 0:15:16.436
<v Speaker 1>was an adjustment. He'd spent decades in a maximum security prison,

0:15:16.676 --> 0:15:20.196
<v Speaker 1>being told where and when to go now Here. He

0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:23.356
<v Speaker 1>was for the first time checking a watch.

0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:26.196
<v Speaker 3>You steady looking at your clock, What time is it?

0:15:26.316 --> 0:15:28.436
<v Speaker 3>I was like, man, he just watches like a job.

0:15:29.116 --> 0:15:31.356
<v Speaker 3>You know. I never never paid attention to a watch.

0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:34.876
<v Speaker 3>It didn't matter. In a maximum setting Sunday three o'clock,

0:15:34.956 --> 0:15:38.916
<v Speaker 3>five o'clock, you're just going around circles. But in the

0:15:38.996 --> 0:15:42.596
<v Speaker 3>renswery center, you make your appointment and it helps you

0:15:42.716 --> 0:15:43.156
<v Speaker 3>to be there.

0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:47.116
<v Speaker 1>Ronnie was moved to this reentry center in twenty twenty two.

0:15:47.796 --> 0:15:50.676
<v Speaker 1>It's a small and selective place designed for people who

0:15:50.716 --> 0:15:54.196
<v Speaker 1>are on the brink of being released. But exactly how

0:15:54.396 --> 0:15:58.356
<v Speaker 1>that might happen for Ronnie still remained elusive. Then one

0:15:58.436 --> 0:15:59.956
<v Speaker 1>day Ronnie got a phone call.

0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:04.156
<v Speaker 3>I was out in the yard and a councul ladies

0:16:04.276 --> 0:16:06.076
<v Speaker 3>you know, me and her kind of cool. So she

0:16:06.156 --> 0:16:08.276
<v Speaker 3>come run out there and she said, hey, I got

0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:11.036
<v Speaker 3>a call from your your brother and he says to

0:16:11.116 --> 0:16:13.556
<v Speaker 3>call home. She says, not an emergency, but you need

0:16:13.636 --> 0:16:14.156
<v Speaker 3>to call home.

0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:18.516
<v Speaker 1>Ronnie called his brother and he told him the news.

0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:22.276
<v Speaker 1>The court had ruled in his favor. His two hundred

0:16:22.356 --> 0:16:26.396
<v Speaker 1>to six hundred year sentence had been vacated. Then someone

0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:29.076
<v Speaker 1>at the re entry center printed the decision for Ronnie

0:16:29.116 --> 0:16:29.476
<v Speaker 1>to read.

0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:33.276
<v Speaker 3>All it said was a sentenced vacator. When I seen

0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:36.196
<v Speaker 3>when I when I seen that, I was like, oh man,

0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:39.956
<v Speaker 3>you know six hundred years gone. I was like, whoa man,

0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:41.476
<v Speaker 3>this is a you know, this is it.

0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:45.676
<v Speaker 1>Ronnie understood what would happen next. He began to prepare.

0:16:46.156 --> 0:16:54.436
<v Speaker 3>So I just passed everything out commissary, my tablet, whatever, lamps, radio, everything, TV.

0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:58.836
<v Speaker 3>You said, fans, you raise her Stremmers. I'll take everything.

0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:00.476
<v Speaker 3>I'm not coming back. It's over.

0:17:01.796 --> 0:17:04.356
<v Speaker 2>Well, you gave away all your possessions that you had.

0:17:05.436 --> 0:17:07.956
<v Speaker 3>I didn't take nothing but my bible, my photo album,

0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:10.796
<v Speaker 3>and my legal papers. On than that. I didn't need

0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:11.196
<v Speaker 3>none of that.

0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:18.796
<v Speaker 1>On October eighteenth, twenty twenty three, Ronnie was released. The

0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:22.516
<v Speaker 1>very same day he was resentenced. He walked out into

0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:26.116
<v Speaker 1>the free world. A crowd of supporters greeted him. They

0:17:26.236 --> 0:17:29.316
<v Speaker 1>waited hours, but really years.

0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:35.276
<v Speaker 3>For this moment. All my brothers, my sisters, you know, friends, attorneys,

0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:39.636
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people. People I've been in prison with people,

0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:42.916
<v Speaker 3>I've been lived in prison with just a multitude of

0:17:42.956 --> 0:17:45.076
<v Speaker 3>people waiting out there, a lot of people.

0:17:46.916 --> 0:17:48.756
<v Speaker 2>That sounds like that could be kind of overwhelming.

0:17:50.236 --> 0:17:53.596
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, of course it is. Of course it is. Now

0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:57.596
<v Speaker 3>you can't everybody's you know, you're hugging one after another

0:17:58.276 --> 0:18:00.156
<v Speaker 3>just to see him. Some of them some people I

0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:03.116
<v Speaker 3>haven't seen thirty years, and you know, seeing I know

0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:05.516
<v Speaker 3>him as a young man. Now I'm looking and you know,

0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:08.836
<v Speaker 3>we're all older. And he just laughed. He just having

0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:09.476
<v Speaker 3>a good time.

0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:13.556
<v Speaker 1>I asked Ronnie about that first night that he spent

0:18:13.676 --> 0:18:15.316
<v Speaker 1>on the outside with his family.

0:18:16.196 --> 0:18:18.476
<v Speaker 3>We just you know, sat around and you know, they

0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:23.836
<v Speaker 3>was pizzas and donuts and just you know, juice, just

0:18:23.996 --> 0:18:26.396
<v Speaker 3>talking and hugging on each other and just you know,

0:18:27.156 --> 0:18:31.156
<v Speaker 3>we haven't sat on couches together since little kids, so

0:18:32.196 --> 0:18:34.276
<v Speaker 3>just leaning on each other, laying on each other and

0:18:34.476 --> 0:18:36.036
<v Speaker 3>just you know, just love.

0:18:38.436 --> 0:18:41.076
<v Speaker 1>Ronnie told me, took turns catching up with people for

0:18:41.276 --> 0:18:45.316
<v Speaker 1>hours and hours late into the night, you know, until.

0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:47.596
<v Speaker 3>One or two o'clock in the morning. Finally a hey,

0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:50.396
<v Speaker 3>you're gonna You're gonna lay down a little bit. So

0:18:50.996 --> 0:18:53.316
<v Speaker 3>I was eating cough drops after cough jobs, losing my

0:18:53.436 --> 0:18:56.516
<v Speaker 3>voice talking so much. That's what happened.

0:19:03.156 --> 0:19:05.596
<v Speaker 1>We talked a bit about Ronnie's plans for the holidays

0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:08.476
<v Speaker 1>and how he intends to spend his days now as

0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:08.996
<v Speaker 1>a free man.

0:19:09.916 --> 0:19:11.916
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna go back to the prison I came from

0:19:11.996 --> 0:19:14.396
<v Speaker 3>because I started the program and there were other individuals

0:19:14.476 --> 0:19:19.196
<v Speaker 3>called Credible Messengers mentorship program. Now I'm soliciting to the

0:19:19.276 --> 0:19:23.356
<v Speaker 3>juvenile centers and the wardens to I want to walk

0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:27.116
<v Speaker 3>into the facilities where the juvenile again men are and

0:19:27.236 --> 0:19:28.796
<v Speaker 3>walk the yard with them or be in the gym

0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:33.396
<v Speaker 3>with them, you know, to help them understand direction, because

0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:35.796
<v Speaker 3>some of them guys already have sentences and they have

0:19:35.876 --> 0:19:38.156
<v Speaker 3>to go to the prison. So I just want to advise.

0:19:38.196 --> 0:19:38.596
<v Speaker 3>I can't.

0:19:39.316 --> 0:19:41.636
<v Speaker 2>That kind of blows my mind, though, I can't imagine.

0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:44.796
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to put myself in your mindset you'd actually

0:19:45.036 --> 0:19:47.236
<v Speaker 2>want to step foot inside of prison again.

0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:53.396
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, I've been practicing Christianity for a long time,

0:19:53.476 --> 0:19:57.396
<v Speaker 3>and I don't leverage God. But uh, I'm a walking

0:19:57.476 --> 0:20:01.676
<v Speaker 3>grace or I understand walking into a prison system when

0:20:01.716 --> 0:20:05.356
<v Speaker 3>I was eighteen years old with six hundred years, I

0:20:05.516 --> 0:20:07.876
<v Speaker 3>understand them young men that are in that in that position.

0:20:08.036 --> 0:20:11.276
<v Speaker 3>So it's bigger in me. It's not about my life.

0:20:11.316 --> 0:20:13.916
<v Speaker 3>I did mine already, so now it's you know, reach him.

0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:20.156
<v Speaker 1>Back years back, when Ronnie was still in prison, I

0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:23.316
<v Speaker 1>asked him what he'd most look forward to doing if

0:20:23.436 --> 0:20:26.316
<v Speaker 1>and when he ever got out. He said he'd just

0:20:26.436 --> 0:20:29.196
<v Speaker 1>walk out into the backyard, look up at the stars,

0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:33.236
<v Speaker 1>take a deep breath, and at last savor the feeling

0:20:33.396 --> 0:20:36.916
<v Speaker 1>of being safe. Now, I asked him if you ever

0:20:36.996 --> 0:20:37.236
<v Speaker 1>did this.

0:20:38.276 --> 0:20:40.796
<v Speaker 3>So once I got to the house, it was nighttime,

0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:43.116
<v Speaker 3>I didn't go to the back, but I just stayed

0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:45.876
<v Speaker 3>in the front just looking around, just like wow, just

0:20:45.956 --> 0:20:48.356
<v Speaker 3>peace and quiet. I just said, Hey, this is it.

0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:51.956
<v Speaker 3>You could just see the peace. I said, Hey, it's Ober.

0:21:04.476 --> 0:21:08.076
<v Speaker 1>Deep Cover is produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Jacob Smith.

0:21:08.556 --> 0:21:13.996
<v Speaker 1>Our editor is Karen Chakerji, mastering by Jake Gorsky. I'm

0:21:14.076 --> 0:21:14.756
<v Speaker 1>Jake Halpern