1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zetron. 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: Also on April twenty fifth, twenty twenty four, Geomedia, the 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: private equity project best known for running websites like Deadspin 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: into the Ground, announced that it was selling satirical news 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: newspaper and website The Onion to a company called Global Tetrahedron. 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 2: Though you knew it at the time, Global Tetrahedron was 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: an entity run by former NBC News This Information reporter 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: Ben Collins, funded by billionaire Jeff Lawson, best known for 10 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: founding Twilio. As a note, global Tetrahedron is a reference 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: to the company of the same name from The Onion's 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: anthology book Our Dumb Century. In one of the first 13 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: bits of good news I've had to share on this show, 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: The Onion is now on by somebody who has not 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: only done a job in journalism, written things, researched things, 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: and worked in a news organization that didn't burned to 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: the goddamn ground. He also cares about the future of 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: the newspaper, best known for headlines like study reveals babies 19 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: as stupid, jurisprudence, fetishists get off on technicality and Mark 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg worried Facebook listening to him after being pushed shirt 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: that says I just laid off ten thousand employees. Today, 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: it's my immense pleasure to be joined by the Onion's 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: new CEO, Ben Collins. Okay, so how did this deal 24 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: to buy the Onion actually come together? 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: Okay? So I was it was January. I just quit 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: my job right for Christmas, and I was writing a 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: book about like some of the biggest pieces of shit 28 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: on the planet Earth, right, you know, the Elon Musks 29 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: and the Jim Jordan's of the world. And I was 30 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: like super depressed, and I was like I was platting 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: through it, but it wasn't. 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: Having fun. 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I have no idea. I don't even know 34 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: if it was good. I think it probably was all right, 35 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 3: but like the process was horrible. And I read an 36 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: ad week that the Onion was aggressively for sale, and 37 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 3: I had known, and I remembered that Elon Musk had 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: once tried to buy the Onion, right he wound up 39 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 3: poaching a bunch of staff and started this thing called Thud, 40 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: which never really launched. He from what I've heard from 41 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 3: some lore in the office, by the way, is that 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 3: they after about a year. He didn't think anything that 43 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 3: these former Onion writers wrote was funny, and this was 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 3: like a peak era of the Onion. So he just 45 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 3: showed them away off campus, off the Tesla campus where 46 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 3: he had originally bought them for the SpaceX campus and 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: into this like weird remote area and then it just 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: died a like a and it died the death of 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: like a guy dying in the desert in a video game. 50 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: That's what happened. So I was worried that he was 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: gonna try to snap it up or like the AI 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: all the people who buy these like websites and turn 53 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: them into like weird zombie AI farms. 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: I thought that was Yes, that seems pretty likely. 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I really, I really did not want that 56 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: to happen. Like the Onion was a very important part 57 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: of my life grown up and kind of remains that way. 58 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: And it's like the last, the last American news institution 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 3: that has been completely unsullied, I would. 60 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: Say, and also a rare good hit rate for decades. 61 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: There's not really been a. 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: Slump, Yeah, exactly, even in the last year when all 63 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: these other news organizations are really fumbling the bag. It's 64 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: like tripping over themselves. They weren't, you know, they were 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: very clear about AI and Gaza and all these other 66 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: things that people fell into, like some really weird rhetorical 67 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 3: traps for themselves that they are now having a hard 68 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 3: time getting out of the Onion and didn't do that. 69 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: Like one of their headlines from last year was a 70 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: guy who sucks at being a person sees he's huge 71 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: potential in AI, which is just fucking right. It's just 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: really good. 73 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 74 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 3: Anyways, Yeah, so I I'd read in adweek that it 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: was very for sale and I put on Blue Sky. 76 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: I said, uh, does anybody want to save the Onion? 77 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 3: I have like six hundred dollars or something like that, right, 78 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 3: And uh, my friend Leela Wilson, who lives in Chicago, 79 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: was like, the Onion's like a Chicago institution. Like if 80 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: this thing goes away, it's like a really bad thing. 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: Like who do we call to make sure somebody decent 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: ends up with this thing? So I was like, I 83 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 3: don't know, let me just make some calls and I'll 84 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: see what it costs, I guess, or see what it is, 85 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: see what's going on with it, and I just kept 86 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 3: making phone calls. I just kept going. I just kept 87 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: like being like, how would I like if we were 88 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 3: to buy this, Like, how would we make money? How 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: do they make money? Now? Do they make money? Now? 90 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: What's going on with this thing? 91 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: Right? 92 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: And a couple of weeks later, we were just in 93 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: the thick of it, Like eventually we had we had 94 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 3: collected enough people who knew a rich guy or you know, 95 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: to get in the equation. And then there was you know, 96 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: there was this guy named Jeff Lawson who had just 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: left Twilio just like a company, and he kind of 98 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: felt the same way about it that we did. And 99 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 3: we had you know, we just kind of like constantly 100 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: were in assurance to each other that neither of us 101 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 3: was going to mess this up, that we're all going 102 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 3: to like leave the processes be at the onion, that 103 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: it makes it great. And then it just happened, like, 104 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 3: I you know, within I think like eight weeks, it 105 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 3: went from like a hilarious joke in my house, like 106 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 3: I was telling my girlfriend, I was like I'm gonna 107 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: buy the onion, hah whatever, and then in like two 108 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: weeks it was like I think I'm gonna actually do this. 109 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: I think this might actually happen, and then in eight 110 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: weeks it was pretty much done. Like we were that 111 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 3: we were fighting off some last second bitterers who were 112 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 3: particularly grulish, but. 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: Like any clarity on who those might be. 114 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: They're in the news. Oh okay, yeah, it's you know. 115 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: But so perhaps a very direct question is, so, Jeff Lawson, 116 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: he's a billionaire, ran Twilio, quite rich. How are you 117 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: going to avoid what has happened with a lot of 118 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: tech investor projects, because for the most part, they've been 119 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: pretty good, but generally when they start, like Jeff Bezos 120 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: has not really backed the Washington Post, he doesn't seem 121 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: to feed it more money, and the same kind of 122 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: like Benioff buying time and Mark Benioff's CEO of Salesforce 123 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: brought time a few years ago, and he again does 124 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: not seem to have like he doesn't seem to have 125 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: messed with it, but he also doesn't seem to have 126 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: helped it. What's the plan with Jeff Lawson. 127 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 3: Well, we're gonna do off a shair and I'm going 128 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: to make sure that the staff, if it does well, 129 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 3: they get money for us. Like it's just straight up 130 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: what it is. You know, he used this as a 131 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: public like a public interest thing, just as we do that. 132 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: It's an American institution, and if it dies, it sucks. 133 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 3: Like it's bad for everybody. Need we need somebody to 134 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: just aggressively need all bad people. And like this is 135 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: not his money making enterprise. I think he already did that, 136 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 3: but like it is to Yeah, the goal of the 137 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: goal of that is to make an environment where writers 138 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: can make money for doing good writing. Like it's just 139 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 3: a weird idea that we had. 140 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So with that in mind, what's the actual plan 141 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: to make money? How does it make money now? And 142 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: what's the plan for the future. 143 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: Okay, cool, I actually want to talk to you about 144 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: this because this like fits with how we talk about 145 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: stuff you and I like when we text abouts. 146 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important. 147 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: So the way the Onion used to make money under 148 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 3: geomedia is basically one way. It's programmatic advertising. So programmatic 149 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 3: advertising is this horrible thing that sort of ate the 150 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 3: Internet and sort of ate our politics in the world. 151 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: It's all those like you know, those like one weird 152 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: trick ads and. 153 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: Yes, they're currently all over the bottom of the page. 154 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, when people think of in shitification. This is probably 155 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: what they're thinking about right right, and that's how they 156 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: make money right now. And I now on the other 157 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: side of this, I get it right. If you were to, 158 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: you can run a business like this where it's really 159 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 3: low margins and you know, you have a small staff, 160 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: and on top of that, basically you just keep running 161 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: websites where that's if you're updating it a little bit, 162 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,599 Speaker 3: you'll remain at the top of Google or whatever. And 163 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: then you get enough of these impressions so that these 164 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: horrible ads just keep, you know, showing up literally tenfolds 165 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 3: sometimes like one hundredsfold. 166 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: Underneath, and they get paid by the impression rather than 167 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: the click. 168 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: Through, right exactly. So like it's it's like it would 169 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 3: be like if if every car that drove by a 170 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 3: billboard there was a you got paid for an eyeball. 171 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: Right, every thousand cars. 172 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: Right exactly, And then you get paid even more obviously 173 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 3: if somebody clicks on that. So the incentive structure is 174 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: bad to begin with, but then the incentive structure from 175 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 3: the person selling the thing on your website is even worse. 176 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: So it's just like, can I tell you my favorite Programmac? Advertising. 177 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: Please do Larry Bird Wife ad one. 178 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: Second Larrybirdwife ad dot com. Oh, yes, I know the 179 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: one we're gonna I'll put a link to it in 180 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: the episode notes. 181 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: Okay, I do want to Can I read it to you? 182 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: Please? Don't? Please read it to me. 183 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 3: It is meet Larry Bird's Repulsive Wife. 184 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: Which is not an onion headline, right, that's an actual 185 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: programmatic clickbait advertising. 186 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: You click on it, that's exactly what says it is. 187 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: It's them making fun of how this woman looks. And 188 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 3: she's not repulsive, by the way, but that's just. 189 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: One of the most things, and that's an automatic is 190 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: that it's I guess it was before AI generation that 191 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: came out, So there was a guy who was like, 192 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 2: you know who, you know, I'm gonna take the boots 193 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: to today that reports ugly wife. I'm gonna I'm gonna 194 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 2: take it down a few pegs. 195 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the twenty twenties, you know what it's time for. 196 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: All the strame busted was just Jesus. But that's the 197 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: thing when you get websites and you can even see 198 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: it on big ones like NBC. I have mentioned this before. 199 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: These programmatic ads are everywhere like outbring things. There's on 200 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: CNN as well, so you'll get like international news, international 201 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 2: news politics, and then the thing about how you're hearing 202 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: age should be better and you can buy them from 203 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: a special website that's full of spyware, and it's just crazy. 204 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: And this is most of the media. But what do 205 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: you what are you gonna do with the onion though? 206 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 3: Because yeah, and I don't want to say, by the 207 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: way that design language of that sort of thing that 208 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: sort of made itiness and and how how they even 209 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: physically look. You see places like The New York Times 210 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: sort of copy that because people are used to that, 211 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: the design language of trumbox ads. They're called chum boxes. Yeah, 212 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: and it just makes everything worse. Our politics sort of 213 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: sound like that now. The way people talk sort of 214 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: sound like meat Larry Bird's repulsive wife. Like that's just 215 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 3: sort of how things. That's how it feels like American life, right, 216 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 3: And I it can't be good. It just can't be good. 217 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: So how are we gonna make money? Great question in 218 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 3: a diverse way that is not that like there there's 219 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: a several part strategy that we have. First of all, 220 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: we're gonna I don't want to like blow our load 221 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 3: here a little bit, but we're gonna have a membership 222 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: that maybe brings back the newspaper. Yeah, it's cool and 223 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: we're excited about it. We're going to sell direct ads, 224 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: so like ads that want to like companies want to 225 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 3: directly deal with us, We're going to do that. We're 226 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: not going to be like a fifth party vendor to 227 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: some to scaringple on the internet. Companies, I want to 228 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: deal with this. We want to deal with them too. 229 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: And like, uh, that's another thing. There's a thing called 230 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: we're basically we're going to write some ad copy where 231 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: we are also aware that there's there hasn't been a 232 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 3: funny super Bowl commercial in like fucking fifteen years, so 233 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: like we do want to be in that business too. 234 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: And uh so. 235 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: Wait, would you be making super Bowl commercials for other people? 236 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: Well, we'll be making ads for other people. Yeah, right, 237 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: And and there's several different ways we can go with 238 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: video that we're currently trying to figure out the very 239 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 3: best one. But all of those ways sort of you know, 240 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: they bring in cash, and then there's, uh, there's just 241 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: a lot of ways to do this. And we're going 242 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: to do a little bit of everything. But like I 243 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: would say, like the number one way you can do it, 244 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: it's like subscribe to us when we launch our membership product. 245 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: But we just want to be really good, So we 246 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: want the staff to own it and be you know, uh, 247 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 3: and we want we want to hear more feedback of 248 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 3: what people want in a membership from us in the newspaper. 249 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 3: So that's where we're that's we're just taking our. 250 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: Time with that. So perhaps this is one you can't 251 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: necessarily speak to yet. But how much time do you have? 252 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 2: How has Lawson been very clear that this will take time, 253 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: because that feels like the biggest failure of every digital 254 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: failed digital media product that I've seen the last few years. 255 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean he's patient with the idea that 256 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 3: this does take time. You get to build out a 257 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 3: thing that you can't in what it's been six weeks 258 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 3: or something. You can't just like completely flip around an 259 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: entire business, and like we have to get out of contracts, 260 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: we have to get out of whole thing. Like there's 261 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff that we have to do to 262 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: get out of that previous business. 263 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: That also you're actually unbuckling parts of the Geomedia the Hydra. 264 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like you know, we're in their old 265 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: building where there's just a lot of stuff that you 266 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: have to do. We had to set up a whole 267 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: you know, to set up a whole business with health 268 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 3: insurance and all the other stuff that you would do 269 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: when you buy a business, and and a lot of 270 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 3: it is unlearning stuff, right where part of part of 271 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 3: the previous business. Right, If you are doing programmatic advertising 272 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 3: as your primary business, you're doing slide shows all day. 273 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: You are telling people, you're driving people to a slide 274 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: show and telling them to click the button over and 275 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: over again to get a new, freshly set life, freshly 276 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: created set of ads. Right. And we have to get this, 277 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 3: you know, it's demoralizing to the staff. We have to 278 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: get them in the mindset that like maybe the best 279 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: joke is a TikTok video, Maybe the best joke is 280 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: is a whole newspaper. Maybe it's a physical object, Like 281 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: how do we actually satirize our current times right now 282 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: and not just you know, the internet from ten fifteen 283 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 3: years ago. Getting that mindset with the writer's room is important, 284 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: And until six weeks ago, they didn't. They had no 285 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: idea who was going to take over this place, or 286 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 3: if anybody who was going to take over, it would 287 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: keep them on board. So I think we're, you know, 288 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: part of us just winning their trust and we're well 289 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: on our way. 290 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: That's cool, And you mentioned kind of expanding the media 291 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: side as it's weird. Over the years, the Onion went 292 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: from having probably some of the freshest media content to 293 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: being mostly written. There was a time when you had, like, 294 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: I don't know any listeners who remember this, don't I have 295 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: used for this, but Get Out of My Face was 296 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: one of the best comedy products of the last decades. 297 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: It was a sports show much like Around the Horn, 298 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: except both hosts just completely hated each other and most 299 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: of the sport. But then it went away and it 300 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: felt like The Onion went very writing base, which is fine, 301 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: it's good stuff, but so you're going to expand that then, 302 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: right exactly. 303 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 3: They Get Out of My Face day a segment where 304 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 3: I think it was called who should we assassinate? And 305 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: they would just pick a sportsfan athlete to assassinate. 306 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: I just remember one where it was just him screaming 307 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: about how Pennsylvania is a giant. It's a giant abandoned 308 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: parking lot and he couldn't wait to get home and 309 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: shave his entire body. Anyways, multimedia now, so you're going 310 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: to start expanding into video, I hope Again. 311 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's important to us because there's two reasons for that. 312 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: First of all, the reason it was it became a 313 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: text heavy thing is because of the business of programmat advertising. 314 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: There's no they were just feeding that beast straight up. 315 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: So we don't want to get out of that and 316 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 3: do bigger things. Second of all, we've accidentally developed this 317 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: massive fan base among the kids because in the last year, 318 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: if you watched CNN or MSNBC, or if you read the 319 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: New York Times or something and you're twenty two years old, 320 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: you were just getting fucking yelled at by old people 321 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: like that was it? That's just what was that kind 322 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: of a Yeah, it was like your feelings aren't valid 323 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: and literally get off my lawn. That's what they were 324 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: saying to that, right, that was right. That's been the 325 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: last year of coverage. And we weren't like that, like 326 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: we you know, we've we've said, first of all, your 327 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: feelings are valid, you also may be right, and also, 328 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, there are a lot of parallels to previous 329 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 3: parts in history where the onion also stood up when 330 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: it was unpopular. For example, like during the Iraq War, 331 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: they stood up all the time. You know, they back 332 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: peaked Dixie Chicks era. They were they had the same 333 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: political but they were thankfully the end was a little 334 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: bit funnier, so they got away with it right. And 335 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 3: that sort of mirrored a lot of the Gaza stuff 336 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 3: over the last year or two where they stood up 337 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: early on. Can I read you a headline? The headline 338 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: is the Onion stands with Israel because it seems like 339 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 3: you get in less trouble for that. 340 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: That's is the most cutting media criticism you're rating. 341 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like and and by the way, with trans coverage. 342 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: Ahead with guns as well. 343 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: But it was a it is journalism's sacred duty to 344 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 3: endanger the live of as many trans people as possible. 345 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 3: This was like in the middle of the New York 346 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: Times every day just being like trans kids don't deserve 347 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: to be alive. Every single day when we do an 348 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: op ed, that. 349 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: Says and as on the side, listeners, this is a 350 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: pro trans podcast. If you are anti trans, delete this 351 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: podcast go fuck yourself anyway, Just moving on. 352 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 3: No, I'm in the Yeah, obviously the mass shooting stuff 353 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: where you know this happens to Yeah, there's no way 354 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: to prevent this. As only nation where this regularly happens, 355 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 3: that is an iconic thing that we obviously repost every 356 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 3: time there's a major mass shooting, which is like every day, 357 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 3: and uh like there is nobody else that does this, 358 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: and that's why we wanted this now. It's because when 359 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: all these other places sort of retreated back into being 360 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 3: really scared to to speak truth to power, they're actually 361 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: go they were like, no, fuck this, We're just gonna 362 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 3: keep making jokes and we're going to keep standing on 363 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 3: the side of people who are quite literally sometimes getting 364 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 3: murdered for no reason. 365 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: Right And it's it's interesting, it's you are tangibly not necessarily, 366 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: it's not even time the true it's just you're not 367 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: making any You're more making statements of comedic effect. But 368 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: it seems to be more bombed and fresh and focused 369 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: criticism than actual journalism right now. Why do you think 370 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: so many journalists are pulling their punches? And I mean 371 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: everywhere tech, politics, business, is it access or is it 372 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: something else? 373 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 3: I think in a lot of cases, it's just access 374 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 3: or pleasing their bosses who really care about access. I 375 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 3: think a lot of these places with the Trump stuff, 376 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 3: they decided the bosses decided the number one priorities that 377 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: you remain on the plane, that the campaign will keep 378 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: talking to you, that they will that you're not going 379 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 3: to piss them off enough, that we're not going to 380 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 3: be blackball or whatever, because the the fifty to fifty 381 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: journalism is to important. I think that's mostly it. And 382 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 3: I also think, like, I don't think they understand that. 383 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: I think so many times these people think that they 384 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: are the bastions of like purity and equality, and like 385 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 3: one side is this and this that the other side 386 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 3: is this, and they cannot be any truth. What they're 387 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: doing is actually really extraordinary, and not in a good way. 388 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 3: It's extraordinary in the sense that this didn't actually happen 389 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: this way previously. They have been captured. They've been captured 390 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: in a political moment where they they where one side 391 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: has totally issued the concept of the truth. It didn't 392 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: used to work this way. People used to say that 393 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 3: if it was raining outside, they used to say it 394 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 3: was raining outside. Now it's right at these networks, whether 395 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: it's tech or it's politics. 396 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 2: Or anything Walter related weather of them. 397 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And also you know one one side of 398 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 3: the government insists it is not raining, right, and that's 399 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 3: like that that is that's it's new, like that's a 400 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: new kind of reportage in the sense that it sucks 401 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 3: Previously that didn't happen. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. 402 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting. It's almost like one side right 403 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: wing side is very aggressively just objective, just they don't 404 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: give a shit, like they can do do and say 405 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: what they want. And then you get towards the centrictye. 406 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 2: And I hate these terms because I feel like it's 407 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: very hard to actually describe what's going on with them 408 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: but the center left. But let's be honest, it's more 409 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: center than anything. They seem to perceive objectivity, sorry subjectivity 410 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 2: or sorry objectivity Jesus Christ. That's where I speak English 411 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: as something that requires you to humor every argument, that 412 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: every position is actually fair. Also, I don't think objectivity exists. 413 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: And it's very bizarre to watch this. This is something 414 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: I find with tech as well, very frustrating. But it's 415 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: interesting that I think that the onion is actually doing 416 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: some of the best journalism, but through the most bizarre path. Yeah. 417 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's like there's this kid on TikTok It was 418 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: like ninety thousand views and she's just like, I'm I'm 419 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 3: she said in a very gen Z way. She's like, 420 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: I say this with my whole chest, like the Onion 421 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 3: has had better, has had better coverage over the last 422 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: month and on Israel and Gaza than New York Times, 423 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 3: the Washington Post, and like she reads through it and 424 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: you couldn't you can't argue with it, like they just 425 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: it's just the truth. I completely I completely agree with 426 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: you on this, man, Like there is like getting there. 427 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 3: There is a kind of thing that's going on where 428 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 3: journalism is now insistent on you just getting punched in 429 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: the face all day by fascists. Yeah, okay, it's fine. 430 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: I don't think that's what they punch us. Yeah, exactly, 431 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 3: it's very it's very important to find out why they 432 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: punched us. While like the actual concept of what's going 433 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: on is completely different. I was on like a you know, 434 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 3: doing an interview a couple of days ago, and there 435 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 3: was this whole I was they were having this whole 436 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 3: conversation that ranged in so many different ways about dissing 437 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: information and like a guy a story A Guy wrote 438 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: in Harper's about the concept of disinformation and how that 439 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: is affected by Jim Jordan, But it's also affected by 440 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 3: the fact that Katie Kuric gave a speech about something. 441 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 3: I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? 442 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: What is? 443 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 3: Who gives it a shit? Like if you the beauty 444 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 3: of this place, beauty the onion is it? Like you 445 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 3: can just cut right through the middle of that, Like 446 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: these people can be having this stupid ass conversation on 447 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 3: each side of it and you can just be like, Nope, 448 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: just sliding on through. And that that, to me, is 449 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 3: that's valuable. And uh, that's that to me is good reportage. 450 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 3: That is just ignoring the fucking noise and trying to 451 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 3: get to the center of what's actually going on. 452 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: Do you consider it a comedy outlet or a journalism outlet? 453 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 3: I mean it's both. I mean Our Bread and Butters 454 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 3: is stupid jokes like our I'm asked, Like I. 455 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: Think about a gorilla mother making the gorilla slouch. That's 456 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: one of my favorite recent one. 457 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, exactly like it, like yelling at her child. 458 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: For a night to slouch. 459 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: More like, for example, I was reading a really old 460 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 3: issue out here our entire archives, and I was just 461 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: plowing through it, and there was a very serious Iraq 462 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: war issue where they were talking about you know, Georgia 463 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: Bbush's timeline to leave or whatever. Uh, and it was 464 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: everything was very heavy. But on the top left, the 465 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 3: very first story you see on there, it's a Nibisco 466 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 3: discontinues wheat thics. 467 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: That's that's great. That's the thing there's you really get 468 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: just like people having a bit of fun with that. Anymore, 469 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: it feels like journalism and media in general has got 470 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 2: so goddamn serious. I mean, that's the time, but also 471 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: serious in a way that doesn't seem to have the 472 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: appropriate seriousness for like police brutality, fascism, but it's just 473 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: serious about everything else. 474 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 3: You're That's I think that's why like the working like 475 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 3: there're a substantial swath of the working class in America 476 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: listens to Joe Rogan other than the fact that's like 477 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 3: very hypnotic and like it's something on in the background, 478 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: is because even they think they're getting the news, which 479 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 3: is wrong, right, I do think that, But in between 480 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 3: that it's him like showing you know, videos of gorillas 481 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 3: and like people punching each other in the face, and 482 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 3: you know there is like there is a mild like 483 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 3: through line of joy that goes on there that cannot 484 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: happen on the regular news. It just doesn't. It doesn't happen, 485 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 3: and like like there was there used to be some 486 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: of that in like the Today Show if people still 487 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 3: watch that, I really know, but like there's a but 488 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: that's very forced fun, like fake fun. You can't you 489 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: can't see fun to fascism, Like you can't see the 490 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 3: like the concept of making dick jokes of fascism because 491 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 3: if you do, it's just gonna win. It's just like 492 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 3: they're just gonna get every teenager in America, even if 493 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: they're sitting around being like these ideas are fucking stupid, 494 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 3: Like this doesn't make any sense, Like this is horrible 495 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 3: the way we're treating people as bad. But like you 496 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: have to have some sense of humor about stuff or it's, uh, 497 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 3: what's the point of being live? 498 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 2: Also feels like the very dry objective standard of CNN, NBC. 499 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: NBC's done more opinion stuff, which I appreciate, but even 500 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: then there's only a little bit of it of the 501 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: larger media space just feels very serious. And then there's 502 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: the right wing psychost But if you look at what 503 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: the right wing's doing, it is Fox and Friends is 504 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: a complete joke. It's an insane show. I'm sure if 505 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: you watch it for more than an hour it begins 506 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: to melt your brain. But it's fun in a horrifying way, 507 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: like it's trying to make the fascists watching. Okay, I'm 508 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: sure there are some non fascist who watch Fox News. 509 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's one of them anyway, But nevertheless, it's dorky, 510 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: it's weird, and then everything else outside of the fascis 511 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: sphere is just dry, dry as a b So no 512 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: wonder people are going to the Joe Rogans of the world, 513 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: because it's not like they can open a newspaper or 514 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: magazine these days. In the magazine and the newspaper actually 515 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: speaks directly to them. It doesn't feel like at times 516 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: it's even written as anything else other than a log 517 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: of what happened. And it's so hard for modern journalism 518 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: to escape that. I just I don't know, I worry, 519 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: but also I guess it benefits me that a lot 520 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 2: of journalism is going to move opinion side. And that's 521 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 2: assuming that Trump doesn't get in and just shut down 522 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: journalism in general. But that's another problem. 523 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 3: Right, No, I mean I think that like I, like 524 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 3: I said, with the kids, I don't think they're getting 525 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 3: traditional news. I think they use traditional news as like 526 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: in the way that we used to send people a 527 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: PDF to research or something. Right, That's how they use it. 528 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 3: They're like, I swear to God, this is real. Just 529 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: click on this thing, I can prove it. That's how 530 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 3: they use it as like I swear this is proof. 531 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: But they don't like read it or ingest it every day, 532 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: and they really don't sit down and watch television news 533 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: because again, why would they. They're just being excoriated for 534 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 3: being alive. And that's like it's not useful. I think 535 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: that there is. I think both parties are abandoning the 536 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 3: premise that there should be joy in your life from 537 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 3: various different angles right, right, like the American right, the 538 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 3: Trump right is a very joyless vector. It's like very 539 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 3: like you must support this man. 540 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: Or beautiful Lynn, you must aspire to the traditional life. 541 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 3: I think that's like that's really humorless, right, and I'm 542 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 3: not saying like the left has an equivalent, like I 543 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: hate when people do that, but like there is Like 544 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: it's just because it's so scary, right having to like 545 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: it's we're out of making jokes about Donald Trump. We've 546 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: had it didn't work, Like it's ten years later. 547 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: It just now tell you during the trial them showing 548 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: him the tweets, everyone else found that really funny. It 549 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: made me very sad because I don't want people to 550 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: think that this will happen to them. I don't want 551 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: them to think that Trump is going to see their tweets. 552 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: He never will. Wait, please stop, but keep going. Sorry, no, So. 553 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: It is important to have you know, there must be 554 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 3: wheat thicks, is what I'm saying. Crazy, what is the 555 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: point you have to like get you have to get 556 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 3: people into this. It's why the New York Times is 557 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: still doing well because they have wordle just the truth. 558 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they and they have some opinion columnist that 559 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 2: are readable and then many others that aren't. And it's 560 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: very strange. That's what I really don't understand. You've got 561 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: all these esteemed outlets that have become kind of homogeneous. Yeah, 562 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: Like what is the like the New York Times, Wall 563 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: Street Wall Street Journal is the more business he won. 564 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 2: New York Times has business coverage. Chicago Tribune is in Chicago. 565 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: There are the occasional people out there at Boston Clobe. 566 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: They still got here, Arthur Bray doing tech like You've 567 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: still got some voices, but it's almost like they've trained 568 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 2: them of life, like the people with names. 569 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: There was this big like first of all, that all 570 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 3: the digital places have died or have been eaten, right, 571 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: so like BuzzFeed died. They had awesome reportage. Anything that 572 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: was like human focused, empathy based journalism is basically gone. 573 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: It went to like nonprofit work. So I want to 574 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: like the pro publicas of the world or whatever, and 575 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 3: those have much longer timelines and their focus isn't really impact. 576 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: Their focused is like let's get awards, let's get you know, 577 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: let's get a big, long story that's really comprehensive out there, 578 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 3: and then hopefully somebody will err it and syndicate in 579 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 3: a good way. So that that's where a lot of 580 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: that reporting went. In the process, all of the young 581 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 3: people either left or were let go from like places 582 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: like The Times in the Post for probably ideological reasons. 583 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: I would guess it more had to do with like, 584 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 3: I don't want to deal with these sniveling children anymore, 585 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,479 Speaker 3: and and it left them with Bill Maher disease that like, 586 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 3: these places have the same exact kind of get off 587 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: my long brainworms that that you see riddled in a 588 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: Netflix comedy special. 589 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: And you know it's bad when like Bill Burr is 590 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: successfully on the right side of history with Palestine and 591 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: Bill mask being like, well, you you know it's good. 592 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: People get exploded and fucking Bill Burr as there explaining 593 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: to him breathlessly. But the truth is Bill Maher succeeds 594 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 2: because these papers fail. He succeeds because they need some 595 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: sort of melting candle looking guy to make center right. 596 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: But he'll say left statements. And it's just I wish 597 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: journalism had more of a voice. I wish all of 598 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: it did, because the fear of access is one thing, 599 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: but it's almost. 600 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 3: It's an ideological statement onto itself, putting access above all, 601 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 3: putting uh, you know, the interests of gigantic capital above all. 602 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 3: It does in fact merit an entire editorial strategy. I mean, ed, 603 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 3: you nailed this with the AI stuff. I saw my 604 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: own newsroom where you know, people were coming in and 605 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 3: saying and this is the only only kind of AI 606 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: talk you would get on television. They were talking about 607 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: how I was gonna like ruin the world and all 608 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 3: this stuff and other worldbots were gonna take over and 609 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 3: the Singularity and all this stuff, and the whole time 610 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: I was like, no, it's not like it's not like, 611 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 3: it's not it's it's rebranded machine learning, like we we 612 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 3: know what, we know what's happening, and like accelerate a 613 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: little bit to like really mimic like LinkedIn posts, which 614 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 3: is really cool job, nice job everybody. And it makes 615 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: a mean power point and does like kind of like 616 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: interesting things with music. It doesn't it seems to. 617 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 2: Like while stealing as well. 618 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 3: When it messes up, it gets interesting. But when it 619 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 3: does the prompt that you want it to, it's horrible. 620 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so but but like that's that's the thing 621 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: is like in these in these newsrooms that like a 622 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 3: bunch of people with money came into these places and 623 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: were like, this is the next thing. You should be 624 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 3: scared of it, And that, in hindsight, was just the 625 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 3: marketing campaign that all of these newsroom leaders fell for 626 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 3: because they were at the Aspen Institute. 627 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: But also it doesn't seem like any of these news 628 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 2: organizations are run by people who write or read. That's 629 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: been my continual problem. 630 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 3: Like there's when I was an NBC you know, there's 631 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 3: like this, there's this thin layer of that I like 632 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 3: to call the game of thrones people or at the 633 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 3: top of the company at NBC News, and they're constantly 634 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 3: jocking for position and fighting for power and stuff. But 635 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: that's nothing to journalism at all. Like it is considerably 636 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: closer to like the run up to like an eighth 637 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: grade dance than it is to anything to do with journalism. 638 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: It's just a case. And those people, those are the 639 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 3: highering and firing people, and they're also they they have 640 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 3: a hard time connecting the dots about like both what's important, 641 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: who's doing the best reporting, how to get the stuff 642 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 3: out there, what's really going on in the country because 643 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 3: those people are tied up in you know, the conversations 644 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 3: those people are having are have nothing to do with 645 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 3: like a regular American life. 646 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, let's stalk Ki how well, 647 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: First of all, is the onion going to sell it? Like? 648 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 2: What is your plan? There? Are you going to make 649 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 2: any deals with these companies. I'm curious. 650 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: I mean, like, we you know, our stuff was surfacing 651 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 3: in Google searches as answers a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, 652 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: if you asked it how many rocks you should eat 653 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 3: per day, it told you you should eat one small 654 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 3: rocket day. Because we did a bit about how there 655 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 3: is a headline that said geologists recommend you one one 656 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 3: small rocket day. It's like a bit industry doing that 657 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 3: weird pr thing they do, And it's in the Google 658 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 3: uh developer blog about why they took down that feature 659 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 3: is because they couldn't figure fully figure out how they 660 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 3: got in there, like they it got aggregated from a 661 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 3: it was like a shitification sandwich. It was like it 662 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 3: got that story, got aggregated from a fake fracking news 663 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 3: website that was really run by the fracking industry, and 664 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: then that as an answer within within Google. So it 665 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 3: was like five problems ago all wrapped up into this thing. 666 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 3: But no, obviously, I don't know, We're not gonna play 667 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: in that game, in part because I feel like it's 668 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 3: already kind of dying. But second of all, boy, it 669 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 3: would be funny if we did. It's a bit if 670 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 3: you're if you're interested as a bit, open a eye, 671 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 3: give us a ring. Uh, we would love to pollute 672 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 3: your data set. Sounds awesome. 673 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: Well, with that in mind, if they've already stolen the onion, 674 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: If they have already, would you will there be legal 675 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: action to protect him. 676 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: I mean we thought about it, man, Like we we 677 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 3: really did think about that, because at the end of 678 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 3: the day, this stealing our art, stealing our horror. Like 679 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 3: one of the ones that because that was not even 680 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 3: close to the only onion article. 681 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: It stole in Google one, and that was just for 682 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 2: the listeners. That's the Google Search generative experience, popping up 683 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 2: onion articles and using them as a source for an answer. 684 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 3: But like one of the ones was can any white 685 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 3: liquid be considered milk? It had like the exact beats 686 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 3: of a joke. It was like yes, and here's an example. 687 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: It was like, uh, one of it was like something 688 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 3: it was it was like glue, particularly white water, clam juice. 689 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 3: But it was the exact beats of our joke implanted 690 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 3: in the answer. I actually don't like landly yeah, and 691 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: like even if it is, it's still theft, even if 692 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 3: it's wrong. 693 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 2: But that's the thing. It's right. Now, We're in this 694 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: very strange world where you've got writers like the Atlantic, 695 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 2: this just happened. You've got writers who are like, oh yeah, 696 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: stealing all the journalism is very bad. We don't like it. 697 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 2: And then Nicholas Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic, formerly of Wired, 698 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 2: who did a very glossy thing on one of the 699 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: Kushner investments, Oscar Health. Anyway, my agrievmances aside. He did 700 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: this big announcement and said, hey, open AI is going 701 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: to train on the Atlantic day, big big day for us. 702 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 2: And Damon barrass Over at the Atlantic, God bless him. 703 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: Immediately had an articles been like this, sugs matched just this, 704 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 2: sugs bro. I don't like this one bit. But what 705 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 2: do you think of these deals? Are they good for 706 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: journalism or are they just kind of troll toll bullshit. 707 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 3: It's bad. It's like there is a massive pollution of 708 00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 3: the Internet happening to obfuscate good information because I can 709 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 3: ne'er do wells benefit from that as a concept. The 710 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 3: more narrow the path it is to get good information 711 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 3: on the Internet, the only people who benefit from that 712 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 3: are rich people. Like if the people have good access 713 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 3: to information are rich people. Those rich people get richer 714 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 3: from the good information. Like that's once once there is 715 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 3: information scarcity, the people who will hoard it are the rich, 716 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 3: right right. They have no problem paying for like a 717 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: like a Bloomberg terminal. They don't care. They'll pay for 718 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 3: the information or whatever, won't the costs or whatever, like, 719 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 3: they will do that well, whereas everybody else is just 720 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 3: like searching around for scraps. They're searching, you know, they're 721 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 3: type of yeah, they're like it's red, it's probably yeah, 722 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 3: Like that's the thing is, like we're now in a 723 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 3: situation where it would it's hard. It's probably harder to 724 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 3: get good answers if you have a new pet, if 725 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 3: you have a baby, just basics, stuff that regular people 726 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 3: go through is being robbed of these people, but from 727 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 3: these companies for no reason. Google didn't have to ruin 728 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 3: their whole product for this. They're doing it to like 729 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 3: satisfy shareholders and to get in on this fad that 730 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 3: exists to prop up the idea of progress in the 731 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 3: American economy. But it's not progress. It's actually like several 732 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: steps back. 733 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So with that in mind, how do you actually 734 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 2: save journalism business wise, what is the thing? I know, 735 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: just a small question for you, what's the plant? But seriously, though, 736 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: what do you do now? Because online advertising feels like 737 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 2: it's dying. It feels like it's folding upot is it? 738 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 2: And how do you how the hell does free journalism 739 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 2: even survive? 740 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so first of all, we have to do all 741 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 3: the things that worked over the last ten years, right 742 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 3: instead of just like loading up everything behind this like 743 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 3: infinite growth, more and more traffic, competing for what or 744 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 3: probably at the end of the day, completely fake eyeballs, right, right, 745 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: Remember some of the stories that I got, like at 746 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: the Daily Beast had millions of views, like like a 747 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 3: ridiculous amount in a couple hours. And now it kind 748 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 3: of feels fake or wrong. It just doesn't feel Yeah. 749 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: It feels a million people didn't see it. 750 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 3: Right, Like, I don't know exactly what happened there, but 751 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 3: this it just doesn't feel right. And what we're gonna 752 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,720 Speaker 3: do is we're going to take some of those pieces 753 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 3: that worked so right now it's working in tradition in 754 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 3: media that I like is profitable. So it's like four 755 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 3: or four media defector aftermath. These are all like narrow 756 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 3: writer co ops that really worked and like this place 757 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 3: got decimated to the point where it's really a small place, 758 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 3: so we can work off that. Also in the comedy world, 759 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 3: there's this thing called dropouts. Do you know what drop 760 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 3: out us? 761 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 2: No, I'm done, okay. 762 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 3: So it's a lot like that. It used to be 763 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 3: called College Humor. It was owned by I A. Barry Dillar. 764 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: Barry Diller got sick of having it. 765 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,720 Speaker 2: And IC owns most of the dating sites, right. 766 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 3: Most of the dating sites I think, like Expedia, just 767 00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 3: like if they owned Daily Beasts. I used to work 768 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 3: at ice Se. They owned lots of different stuff. So 769 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 3: Barry Diller got sick of having it. It used to 770 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 3: run on that old model that we're talking about. They 771 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 3: sold it back to the original founders of the company 772 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 3: for like, I don't know, a couple a few hundred 773 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 3: thousand dollars, and then those people were like, all right, 774 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 3: we'll just start fresh, like but what do we actually 775 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 3: want this to be? And they made a subscription model 776 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 3: of just you know, improv comedy and like some stuff 777 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 3: they like to do, like D and D or whatever. 778 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 3: It's called Dropout, and it has I think like somewhere 779 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 3: like near a million subscribers at six dollars a month, 780 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 3: and they just sold out two nights in a row 781 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 3: at Massive Square Garden. 782 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 2: That's wild. 783 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 3: This is one of their shows. And this this happened. 784 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 3: They were sold from Barry Diller in like peak early pandemic, 785 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 3: like twenty twenty one or round of that, and that 786 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 3: took what, that's what three years or something. They knew 787 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 3: how to do it right and they put a lot 788 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 3: of work into it. But that's sort of the space 789 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 3: that we want to play in as a baseline. And 790 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 3: then we're gonna do this other stuff. You know, we're 791 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 3: going to do direct ads, we're gonna do all these 792 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 3: we're gonna do more traditional media stuff, video stuff. But 793 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 3: we want to get into the membership game. 794 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: People. 795 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 3: If they like us, we will send them cool ship 796 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 3: in the mail and also in their email, and they'll 797 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 3: pay us a sum of money and then like on 798 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 3: top of that, we'll use make TV shows and stuff like. 799 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 3: That's that's our that's our goal, and we'll have better 800 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 3: merch and we'll just try to serve people directly and 801 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 3: hope that this, like you know, this very old timey 802 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 3: way of doing it works. 803 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 4: Like that's that's reage almost yeah, I mean like there's yes, 804 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 4: I think I think we can do that. And like 805 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 4: if fucking Samsung wants to launch their Galaxy phones. 806 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 3: Galaxy No. 807 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 2: Seven, little little Dan nine and drugged for the list. 808 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 3: For us Dan nine and heads baby Jesus, But yeah, 809 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,919 Speaker 3: if they want, if they want to launch their exploding phone. 810 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 3: What is that joke again? 811 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 2: It's just really good for the listeners here who loved 812 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 2: this stuff. It was Dan nine and a clean comedian 813 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 2: whose joke was, Oh, that really blew up. Someone must 814 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 2: have plugged in their Samsung Galaxy Note seven classic phone 815 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 2: that just started exploding because it's pattery. Anyway, what were 816 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 2: we talking about? I don't know. 817 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 3: But we want to be weirdos and we want to 818 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 3: be able to like, we want to be able to 819 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 3: h you know, say the things that people are all 820 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 3: thinking we can't say. And then when it happens, we 821 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 3: want them to, you know, pay us money and we'll 822 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 3: send a newspaper in the mill like, but. 823 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 2: There will still be free content. 824 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 3: Oh. The whole the site is the Onion is a 825 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 3: public service. So we're gonna we're gonna make sure everything's 826 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,760 Speaker 3: you know, our journalism's free. 827 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 2: One final question, are you going to start pushing bylines ever? 828 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 2: Because the one thing that the Onion doesn't have right 829 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 2: now is names and maybe that's good. 830 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 3: So you know, we've had this. I had this conversation 831 00:43:55,160 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 3: because like it's been uh, it does protect people, but 832 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 3: it's also a pain in the ass of like you know, 833 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 3: y like a writing job or something. But like the 834 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 3: process here is like so beautiful that I don't really 835 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 3: want to mess with it. Like that's the number on 836 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 3: thing I didn't want to do. I don't I'm never 837 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 3: gonna write a headline. I'm never gonna select any I 838 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 3: don't want to do that. I'm just like I'm here 839 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 3: to make it. So if they want to make a 840 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 3: video out of something, they can do it. Or if 841 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 3: they want to make up newsaper or something, they can 842 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 3: get it. Here's their process. Every day. They have like 843 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 3: a couple hundred contributors who are all like a lums. 844 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 3: Some of them are like famous people that I can't 845 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 3: reveal Joe Biden, Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, 846 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 3: America's funniest people, all of them, but they all They 847 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 3: and our ten staff writers and editors all send completely 848 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 3: anonymously headlines into this bucket. They're anonymized in a Google form. 849 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 3: They those get winnowed down by whoever. There's a person 850 00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,959 Speaker 3: who wins down the list, who brings it into the megeinting. 851 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 3: Then there's like a couple hundred headlines that remain. Those 852 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,720 Speaker 3: are all those are spoken out loud. If they're funny, 853 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 3: and if they're laughed at, they generally they might have 854 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 3: a chance. That gets down to eight or ten a day, 855 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 3: and then from there they write them up and if 856 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 3: they don't really work, then they throw them away. And 857 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 3: that's say you get to this, like you know, so 858 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 3: you get to the half dozen headlines that you get 859 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 3: a day on the onion. Every day, this process happens 860 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 3: and then they go back and they're like they figure 861 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 3: out who wrote it after all that, and that is 862 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 3: like the most egalitarian way anything works in journalism or 863 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,439 Speaker 3: or writer's rooms or anything at all. And why would 864 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 3: have any mess of that. It sucks that there's no 865 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 3: bolines involved in that, and maybe there's a way to 866 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 3: do that, but like sometimes it's like a huge team effort, 867 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 3: and part of the beauty is not knowing who it's from. 868 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 2: I've read The Onion Infinity twenty years and I'm so 869 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 2: happy to see it in the hands of somebody who 870 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 2: actually cares, who loves writers and writing and creating interesting 871 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 2: things that readers love. It's really frustrating that this is 872 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 2: the exception rather than the rule. But I believe that 873 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 2: sites like The Onion, along with worker owned co ops 874 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 2: like Defecta and Aftermath making sports journalism and games journalism, respectively, 875 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 2: are the future of journalism itself. Institutions that empower great 876 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 2: writers that deeply care about the subject matter, building sustainable, 877 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,919 Speaker 2: lasting businesses and relationships with their readers. And I really 878 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,959 Speaker 2: am serious when I say this is the future better offline. 879 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 2: It could happen here behind the bastards, great shows and 880 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 2: cool Zone media sixteenth Minute of Fame. These are all 881 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 2: things built by building real relationships with you, the listener, 882 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 2: with people actually consuming this stuff, making cool stuff with 883 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 2: a longer time horizon then I don't know, six months 884 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,879 Speaker 2: making great things and hoping people will pay for them. 885 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:58,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems obvious, but journalism has been almost 886 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 2: completely swallowed, kind of like when Kirby eats something and 887 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 2: he poops it out and he turns into it. Kirby 888 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 2: isn't that thing, He just stole it. And that is 889 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 2: the modern state of journalism. Journalism can be saved by 890 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 2: people like Ben Collins. It can be saved by people 891 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 2: like Defector and Aftermath. It can be saved by people 892 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 2: who make this stuff. And it must be put back 893 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 2: in the hands of those who make these things. It's 894 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 2: time to stop building big, ugly, unsustainable journalism with insane 895 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 2: startup valuation goals. It just isn't possible anymore. What is 896 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 2: possible is giving great people enough of a chance to 897 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 2: build a real audience and a great product. And I 898 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 2: think you'll agree. A better world is possible for digital media. 899 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 2: I promise you. It just has to be built by 900 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 2: and for the writers themselves. Thank you for listening to 901 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 2: Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline 902 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 2: theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more of 903 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 2: his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M 904 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,879 Speaker 2: A T T O, S O W s ki dot com. 905 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 2: You can email me at easy at Better offline dot com, 906 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 2: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast 907 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 2: links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend 908 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 2: you go to chat dot where's youreaed dot at to 909 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 2: visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline 910 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 2: to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening. 911 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 912 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia 913 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 914 00:48:37,320 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.