1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to Carol Mortywood Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: My guest today is Craig Shirley. Craig is an American author, 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: lecture historian, and public affairs consultant. He has written six 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: best sellers on Ronald Reagan, and his firm is Shirley 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: and McVicar Public Affairs. 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on, Craig. 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 3: Thank you, Carol. It's a real pleasure. Thank you. 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: So I have a story for my viewers and listeners 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: and a reminder story for you. But my first job 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: in politics was actually working for Craig Shirley. I was 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: an intern in his office for about six weeks in 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. I remember the year very specifically. 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: I was in graduate school and about three weeks into 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: the internship, my grandmother died and I had to go home, 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: and it was like a big deal. I was very 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: close with her, and Craig Shirley and his team were 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: so incredible to me. They were like, of course, you 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: have to go home. I was so nervous about, you know, 19 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: first job in politics. They planted a tree for her 20 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: in Israel, and they were just so wonderful. They sent 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: me like Flowers. I left that internship being like, oh, 22 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: people in DC are so nice. And I also did 23 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of research on your book, Reagan's Revolution, 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of the campaign that started it all. 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: And I like to refer to myself as an expert 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: on the nineteen seventy six around Reagan for election. Yeah, yeah, 27 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: because I did research on that book, and so I 28 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: had all this you know, knowledge on that election, which 29 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: was very funny. 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: So, Craig, it is so nice to. 31 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: Have you on, and I've remained a big fan of 32 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: yours over the years. I loved your books, and I 33 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: think you're just a terrific person. 34 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 3: So thanks for coming on, Carl, Carol, the feelia is mutual. 35 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 3: Thank you. 36 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: So how did you get your start in this world? 37 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Did you always want to be in public affairs? Did 38 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: you always want to be a writer? How did this 39 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: happen for you? 40 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: I actually thought it was going to be a gym teacher. 41 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: I thought it was going to coach lacrosse. That was 42 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: really my plan when I went to college. I thought 43 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: I was going to be either a high school gym 44 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: teacher or a history teacher and coach athletics lacrosse. I 45 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: played lacrosse in college, and actually I went on to 46 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 3: played in high school in college, and then I went 47 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 3: to coach it for seventeen years while I was running 48 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: my firm. I think you probably maybe remember I was 49 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 3: coaching lacrosse at the time when you were at the firm. 50 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: But I didn't start out. I started out really. My 51 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 3: parents were very politically active in New York state politics. 52 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: My father was actually the first registered Conservative in the 53 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: state of New York when it became an official political 54 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 3: party back in nineteen sixty one. I want to say 55 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: he went down to the Board of Elections at four 56 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning and wait until it opened at 57 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: seven o'clock so he could be the first person registered, 58 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: so he could always say he was the first person 59 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: in the state of New York regis conservative. They dragged 60 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 3: me to New York State Convention Conservative conventions, and I 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: met Jim Buckley and Bill Buckley and so many other 62 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 3: conservative luminaries at an early age. And I went door 63 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: to door for Barry Goldwater in nineteen sixty four. So 64 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: I was politically active at an early age, and it 65 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: just seemed to gravitate toward that, even though I was 66 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: when I was in college and I started as a 67 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: history and visited major. Is that there was an attraction. 68 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: And I'll tell you there was a seminal moment for me. 69 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy six, I was actually I was slinging hash 70 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: at a seafood restaurant on Cape Cod and I remember 71 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: that the night I was cocktail waiting that night and 72 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: Reagan's speech the Kansas City Convention was on the TV 73 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: over the bar, and I watched the speech and I 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: just was mesmerized by and I said to myself, I've 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: got to get involved. I've got to get involved. That fall, 76 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: I went back to college and volunteered on the Gerald 77 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 3: fort campaign and in Western Massachusetts where I was going 78 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 3: to college. 79 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 4: And of course four years yeah, well, actually we carried 80 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 4: Western mass Ford carried Western mass got slaughtered in the 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 4: state because of Boston and there's outlying areas. 82 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: But you know, I did a good I you know, 83 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: I thought I did a good job. You know, I 84 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 3: registered voters and gave people rides of polls and did 85 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 3: lit drops, all the volunteer activities. The state chairman called me, 86 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: this is a big medicine for me. Right, I was 87 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: just you know, a little Puke College student and the 88 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 3: state chairman. The Republican state chairman called me a couple 89 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 3: of weeks later and asked me to come over to 90 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: Boston to have lunch with them. So I went over there. 91 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 3: I said, yes, of course, I'd love to. So I 92 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 3: drove over there and it was about one hundred miles 93 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: away from Springfield. And it was one of those old 94 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: Boston you know, private clubs with deep leather chairs, and 95 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: you know, I had to figure out which piece of 96 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 3: which silverware to use and off. So, yeah, exactly, yeah, right, 97 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 3: I figured that. Later, he said, you've got a knack 98 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 3: for this business. I said, well, thank you. He said, well, 99 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: what are your plans? I said, I think I'm just 100 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: going to be a high school you know, history teacher 101 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 3: and coach sports. He says, well, if you thought about 102 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: politics as a profession, I said, I didn't know you 103 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: could do politics profession, you know. And he said, oh, sure, 104 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: of course. You can need campaign manager and press secretary 105 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 3: and finance director and organizational you know, there's lots of 106 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: paid positions in politics. I said, well, that sounds interesting. 107 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: I am not committed to my future. I'm only nineteen 108 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 3: or twenty. I was nineteen or twenty. He said, he said, well, 109 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 3: you need to go to Washington and become an intern. 110 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: And I said, what's an intern? And he laughed. Then 111 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: I applied. I kind of figured things out, you know, 112 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: as I went along. I applied to a half dozen 113 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: conservative congressmen and number of senators. The Republican party, you remember, 114 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy seven, was in terrible, awful condition, you know. 115 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: It was just it was almost not even a political party. 116 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: And I got the only internship I got was ironically 117 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 3: from my home state senator, Senator Jacob Javis, who was 118 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: a very liberal Republican. He was very good on Israel 119 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 3: and he's very good on national events, and I always 120 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 3: say wonderful things about him. He was a terrific, terrific guy, 121 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 3: and he was very very kind to me and very 122 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: very nice to me. But I was quickly I was 123 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: the token Conservative and office build a lot of liberals. 124 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 2: I've been that on several campaigns as well. 125 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 3: One thing led to another, and then I worked on 126 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 3: the Virginia Gubnou campaign, and then I went back to 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: school and I got a I went to a Nick 128 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: Pack campaign school, and there I met some people who 129 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: are very important in my political career in the future, 130 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: with Terry Dowan and Bill Radigan and Arthur Finkelstein, who 131 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: became my political mentor. And I went back to college 132 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: and I was just about two months away from graduating. 133 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: Arthur calls me and says, listen, there's a race in Philadelphia. 134 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: I want you to go work on it. I said, 135 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: I'm about to graduate. I can't do that. I just 136 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: you know, if I don't graduate now, I never will. 137 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: I said, okay. So he called me back a week 138 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: later and says, listen, I want you to go to 139 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: work for Abby Nelson. He's running for the US Senate 140 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: there in Massachusetts. And I said, Ozzie Nelson, isn't he 141 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: a band leader? He said, no, Abby Nelson, Avey Nelson. 142 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: He's a conservative radio talk show host and political leader 143 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: there in Boston. And so I ended up going to 144 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: work for him and we barely lost the primary. I 145 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 3: worked for him from June until August and we barely 146 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: lost the primary running Ed Brooke, who was then an 147 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: incumbent liberal Republican senator, and I went after after he lost. 148 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: How far do you want me to go with this? 149 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: I mean, however far you want. I love hearing people's stories. 150 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: You know, you tell me, yeah, I'll speed it up. 151 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 3: He went back. We had a house in Cape Cod 152 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: and my father and I built and I went down 153 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: there and I thought, you know, I'll just go back 154 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: to the seafood restaurant. I worked there this winter, his 155 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: fall in winter. And two days lefter, I get another 156 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 3: phone call for Arthur and he says, listen, I'm meeting 157 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: in Boston with the with the Republican nominee running in 158 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 3: New Hampshire, and I'd like, I want you to meet 159 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: us there. So I met. I went there and we 160 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: went over the polling data. The candidate was Gordon Humphrey 161 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 3: and uh, Humphrey of course was you know, went through 162 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 3: staff like like you know what through a goose and 163 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: h and he was he was look, he was searching 164 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: for a campaign manager and a press secretary and uh. 165 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 3: And after going over the polling data showing he was 166 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 3: going to lose, he says to me, I said, I 167 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: need a campaign manager. And Arthur points at me and 168 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 3: he says, well, there he is right there. I said, 169 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you. I'll 170 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: be the press secretary, right I was press secretary, and 171 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: we won, being a three term incumbent. We were labeled 172 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: the biggest upset in America on election night nineteen seventy eight. 173 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: And Humphrey was a firebrand conservative. I always admired him. 174 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: He was a little bit of kookie, but it was 175 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: a good, you know, reliable conservative vote. And after the 176 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 3: election he fired everybody on his staff and Nixon like maneuver, 177 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 3: but he asked he asked me and two other people 178 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: to come with him to Washington be on his staff. 179 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: As of course, I jumped at the chance and I 180 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: went to Washington and I was with him. 181 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: Have you been in Washington since then? 182 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. 183 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm saying that was that your was that the what 184 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: moved you to Washington? 185 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 3: I'd been there before when I intered for Jafts, right, 186 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 3: And I went back to Massachusetts and I went back 187 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: to work for Humphrey and I was there for about 188 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 3: a year. And then the fellow who rents fun for 189 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: a conservative majority asked me. He said, look, you know 190 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: about New Hampshire politics and communications. We're putting together an 191 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: independent expenditure and support of Governor Reagan. We'd like you 192 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: to run. I was twenty one years old. Yeah, he 193 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 3: handed me eight thousand dollars, which was a lot of 194 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: money in those days, and he said, we need to 195 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: help Reagan get the nomination because he's could lose to Bush, 196 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: and we want you to put together an independent expenditure campaign. 197 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 3: So I did radio and newspaper advertising in the first 198 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: six primary states, and we bought radio, wall to wall 199 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 3: everything we could, sports, agriculture, farm reports, everything. Reagan ended 200 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: up turning his campaign around, and I like to think 201 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 3: that myself and John Gizzi and Bob Heckman could take 202 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: a little bit of credit in helping turn around Reagan's 203 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: chances to win the nineteen eighty nomination. 204 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: Fantastic. So you've written six best selling books about Reagan? 205 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: Yes, What is it about Reagan that has fascinated you? 206 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: So he's very important in my life as well. You know, 207 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: I started the show talking about working in your office 208 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four and how. 209 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: My grandmother died. 210 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: Reagan died that same year, and when he died my family. 211 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm from the Soviet Union. I have a 212 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: brother named Ronald. It's not a coincidence. He's born in 213 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two in America. 214 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: He was very important to a lot of people. 215 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: But you know, you've clearly taken that extra step and 216 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: really delved into his life. 217 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: What did he mean to you? 218 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: Well, you know, in sixty four, after he gave his 219 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: famous speech for Goldwater, the speech was made into a 220 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: record album. My father brought it home one day and 221 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: he made my brother and me sit down listen to it, 222 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 3: and after the radio, after the record player, after the finish, 223 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: he said, this man Reagan himself should be president. That 224 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: was in nineteen sixty four. Yeah, my father was kind 225 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: of was prescient in that regard. But anyway, so I 226 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: followed his career assiduously all through the sixties and seventies 227 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 3: and was happy to. And I wasn't involved in seventy six, 228 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 3: but I was deeply involved in eighty and with the 229 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 3: White House Conference on a Small Business in eighty one 230 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 3: eighty two, and then I worked at the Republican National Committee, 231 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: which was the political arm of the Reagan White House, 232 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: and then worked on the eighty four re election campaign, 233 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 3: and lectured many times now at the Reagan Library and 234 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 3: the Reagan Institute. I mean, I'm giving this short version. 235 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: Care what is it about him that made you, you know, 236 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: his biographer. 237 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 2: What was the thing that he. 238 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: Has that other people don't have that interests you so much. 239 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: I don't know. If I put my thumb on one 240 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 3: simple thing, I don't think you can. This was an 241 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 3: extremely intelligent man. Marty Anderson, his old Issues aid, was 242 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 3: a good friend of mine. He said. He once estimated 243 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 3: Reagan's intelligence to be a one hundred and seventy five. 244 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 3: Reagan was an extremely intelligent man. And you know he 245 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 3: read five newspapers day and read, you know, a a 246 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: historical book a week, and read viseness, you know, security 247 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 3: reports and things like that. He's an extremely intelligent man, 248 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 3: wrote thousands of letters. 249 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 5: It was his compelling intellect, his ability to tell a 250 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 5: compelling story to make it seem so obvious that freedom 251 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 5: is the way personal dignity, personal freedom is the way 252 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 5: the individual is superior to the state. 253 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: I was always attracted libertarian philosophy anyway. I remember in 254 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: Reason magazine in nineteen seventy five he said that libertarianism 255 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 3: was the fundamental basis for American conservatism, Which is true. 256 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: If it's centered on the individual, it's centered on privacy, 257 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: it centered on freedom, it's centered on liberty, then they 258 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: are simpatico the libertarian philosophy and the American conservative philosophy, 259 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: so the whole package. It was just you know, I 260 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: met him many times, and that wasn't why I supported him. 261 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: But he was utterly the same in private as he 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 3: was in public. You saw a man in public who 263 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 3: was compelling, who was friendly, who was charming. He was 264 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 3: like that in private too. A friend of mine who 265 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: since passed away, Paul Corbyn, worked for many years ago. 266 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: He used to play my weekly poker game. 267 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: Oh I played poker, do you I do? Yeah, I 268 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: played boker game. 269 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: I'm rusty now I played for twenty twenty five years 270 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: and since we moved away from Washington, you know, busted 271 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: up our old game. But anyway, Alcardon played in this game, 272 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 3: and he had worked for John Kennedy, and he said 273 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: that when Kennedy walked into a room, he tipped, he 274 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 3: tipped the field. You know, electricity flowed through a room, 275 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 3: right said that. I said, that's the way it is 276 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: with Reagan, and Reagan tips the field. Reagan, there's electricity 277 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: that flows through a room. Where Reagan walks into it, 278 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: it just he changes the dynamics of the setting. 279 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely. You can see it. 280 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: Even I had never met him. You know, I was 281 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: born in seventy seven. I am a little late for 282 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: being in the political game with Reagan. 283 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: You could see it. 284 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: Even I play old clips for my kids, and he 285 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: had something very different about him that it's hard to capture. 286 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: And the humor with which he did. 287 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: Certain things, the way that he was I played yesterday 288 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: for my children, The way he responded to Mondale about 289 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: his age. You know, he won't hold his opponent's youth 290 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: and inexperience against him, and he delivers it with his 291 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: straight face. 292 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: He was really something special. 293 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: Somebody once, somebody wiser than me, once said that a 294 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 3: true leader has a physical, intellectual and moral presence. Reagan 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: had a physical, intellectual and moral presence, and that's what 296 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: made him, has made him one of our four greatest presidents. 297 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: You have this historical background of our political system. 298 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: What do you worry about right now? 299 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: Making a deadline? I'm working on a book right now. 300 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: I hear you. 301 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, you know what. I know what I'm 302 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: talking about. I worry about making a deadline. I worry 303 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: about finding publishers to the next three or four books. 304 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: I want to write, I worry about my children. You know, 305 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 3: they're all grown and they're all doing very very well. 306 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: My oldest, our oldest is a producer at Bloomberg, and 307 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: Andrew is the head of speech writing at NASA. Our daughter, 308 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: Taylor is an executive with a bank. And our son, 309 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 3: our son Mitchell, our youngest, he is working for a 310 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 3: DC lobbying firm. 311 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: So you must be so proud. That's amazing. 312 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: We're so proud of them. Unfortunately, two of them are 313 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 3: left wing knuts. No two are rational thinking. Can you 314 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 3: imagine that. My wife's so tough, right, she ran seapack 315 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 3: for you know, seven years. She worked for the Republican 316 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 3: National Committee, she worked for Reagan. We're both you know, 317 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 3: I like to consider ourselves intellectual conservatives, and we have 318 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 3: two children who are are conservative. They think well, I 319 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: they said, I think, therefore I am probably the world's 320 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: first conservative. And then we got two of that are 321 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 3: just phrased left wing knutballs. You know. I had an 322 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: argument ones with my youngest one. He was convinced that 323 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 3: a man can have a baby, and we argued for 324 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 3: half an hour. Said, please tell me in the animal kingdom, 325 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 3: where the male of the species can have a baby. 326 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 3: And he looked it up and looked it up and 327 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: looked up and so finally he says to me, he says, 328 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 3: sea horses. 329 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 2: Sea horses. That's the only right of course, yes, which. 330 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 3: Isn't even true, but that's the best you could find. 331 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 6: We're going to take a quick break and be right 332 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 6: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What advice would you 333 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 6: give your sixteen year old self having to kind. 334 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 3: Of do this all over again, have more fun? 335 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Did you not have a lot of fun? 336 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: I did, Carol. I have had a lot of fun. 337 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 3: It's been a lot of fun. But there's been a 338 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 3: lot of bumps in the road along the way. 339 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: You know. 340 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 3: My father died when I was a kid, and then 341 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: my grandfather died when I was a month later, and 342 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 3: a lot of trials and tribulations along the way, and 343 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: I had to go to work at an early age. 344 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: And I had a lot of fun along the way. 345 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: I don't want to overstate it. I guess the first 346 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 3: thing is I would save more money, I would be 347 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: more careful with my money. I would read more. I 348 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 3: would read a lot more. You know, it's just I've 349 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: read hundreds of books, probably and I still feel inadequate. 350 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: There's so many books that I want to read. I 351 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: haven't read Grant's autobiography, and I want I want to 352 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: read grants autobiography. I just got a copy of the 353 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 3: of the Adams and Jefferson Correspondence, and I want to 354 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 3: read that. For pleasure. For research, I'm reading a bunch 355 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 3: of books on Donald Trump. And for pleasure, I'm reading 356 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 3: like Mark Levin's book on Power, which I just got 357 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 3: a copy from Mark. And I'm reading Kennedy by Ted Sorenson. 358 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 3: That's just for pleasure. But if I could give myself advice, 359 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: it would be well. First of all, never smoke. I 360 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: smoked for forty years. I quit ten years ago. 361 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: Congratulations, that's amazing. 362 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 3: Do you want to know how I quit? 363 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: How'd you quit? 364 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 3: I prayed. I'll tell you something that I think is amazing. 365 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: I was drinking. I was never I was never an alcoholic. 366 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: I didn't drink to excess. But at night, after I 367 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 3: finished writing during the day, I would sit down and 368 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 3: edit out in the back porch and I would chain 369 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: smoke cigarettes and drink two or three glasses of wine. 370 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 3: And I did that four nights a week, and I 371 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: got to a point where I just thought, you know what, 372 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 3: this is not working for me anymore. I've been doing 373 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: that for forty years, and I did everything you know 374 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: I did. I wrote and ran a business, and you know, 375 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 3: did all the other things. Rehabbed old buildings and did 376 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: a lot of other things. One night, I just, I 377 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 3: guess I'm giving my testament. I beg your pard. 378 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: I love it. 379 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 3: One night, I just after two or three glass of 380 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 3: wine and smoking a bunch of cigarettes, I just I 381 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 3: get down my knees and I prayed. And the next 382 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: morning I woke up and both cravings were gone. It's incredible, 383 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: they were both going. 384 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 2: I believe it. 385 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 3: I think I haven't had a cigaret that's ten years now. 386 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: I was smoking two two and a half back the 387 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 3: day and I haven't had a cigarette in ten years. 388 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 389 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 3: I was smoking, I was drinking two or three glass 390 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: of wine a night, and I haven't had a glass 391 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: of wine and ten years. I've had probably four or 392 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 3: five Jack Daniels. Five Jack Daniels in ten years, and 393 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: invariably I drink half of it and then pour the 394 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: rest of it down the drain. 395 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: That's really something I fully believe prayer works. 396 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that that's something controversial to say, or 397 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: even you know, questionable. 398 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 3: I feel comfortable with you that I can tell you that. 399 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: I know lots of people following you are probably going 400 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: to say, what a door. 401 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 402 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: I think my listeners know that prayer is the way, 403 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: and I do think that. And look, I have a 404 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: lot of Christians on my show who talk about how 405 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: prayer has changed their lives, and I don't. 406 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 3: Think there's anything certainly changed mind strange about it. 407 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: I've loved this conversation. Craig. 408 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: You are such a fascinating man, and you've done such 409 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: incredible work. Leave us here with your best tip for 410 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: my listeners on how they can improve their lives. 411 00:21:54,680 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 3: Re Read, Read and make as many friends as possible, 412 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 3: Pray as much as possible, love as much as possible. 413 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 3: Read drunk and white. I have a particular favorite Dorothy Parker. 414 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: She had a lot of good advice. One of the 415 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 3: best ones was authors and artists and actors and such. 416 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 3: Never know nothing but always know much. 417 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 2: Okay, well, thank you so much. He is Craig Shirley. 418 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: Check out his work, especially his six bestsellers on Ronald Reagan, 419 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Craig for coming on. 420 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, Carol so so much.