Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 1: Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, fridagg bride
Speaker 1: egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's episode is with Jim Wagner. Jim is a design
Speaker 2: partner at Hands Golf Design. He is obviously Gill's right
Speaker 2: hand guy, you know, deeply involved with every project that
Speaker 2: UH Hands Golf Design is UH is doing, which is
Speaker 2: right now, they have quite a few projects. We are
Speaker 2: going to go into great detail on today's episode about
Speaker 2: the park. The park is opening this week. It opened
Speaker 2: on Monday, and it is a new public golf facility
Speaker 2: in West Palm Beach. It is a mere ten minutes
Speaker 2: from the airport, very close to Jupiter, Boyton Beach, Delray Beach,
Speaker 2: all sorts of vacation spots down there in South Florida.
Speaker 2: Obviously pretty close to Fort Lauderdale in Miami as well.
Speaker 2: The park is a new development which was an old course,
Speaker 2: so it was the West Palm Beach golf Course, which
Speaker 2: was a Dick Wilson designed from about I think it
Speaker 2: was nineteen forty seven. It was a golf course that
Speaker 2: had gone out to pasture, so you know, it was
Speaker 2: losing the city money and it closed down and had
Speaker 2: been non operational for about five years. It was resurrected
Speaker 2: by Sethwah, who obviously you know, is the CEO of
Speaker 2: the PGA. He was doing this not as the PGA,
Speaker 2: but as a citizen. His real partner in this is
Speaker 2: a guy named Dirk Zif and a really neat model
Speaker 2: what they did. Dirk is actually going to be listed
Speaker 2: as a involved with the design, so it is a
Speaker 2: Hans Wagner and Zif design. But they went around and
Speaker 2: raised thirty million dollars. And what the way they set
Speaker 2: this up is they have a long term lease with
Speaker 2: the city of West Palm Beach. I think they lease
Speaker 2: it for a dollar a year and obviously have a
Speaker 2: revenue share back to the city. And they also have
Speaker 2: effectively a nonprofit foundation where all this money sits in
Speaker 2: to maintain this golf course and continue operating it for
Speaker 2: years to come. So the park is you know, it'd
Speaker 2: be really you know, remiss not to mention it's on
Speaker 2: a beautiful site. It is a wonderful piece property for golf.
Speaker 2: It was completely redone and it is brand new, effectively
Speaker 2: a brand new golf course on this great site in
Speaker 2: a city center. And I think, you know, from my perspective,
Speaker 2: it is one of the very best golf courses in
Speaker 2: Florida full stop. I think that if you are going
Speaker 2: to compare it to golf courses in South Florida, I
Speaker 2: think the course that you're going to compare this to
Speaker 2: most is Seminole. It is in really elite company in
Speaker 2: terms of this golf course, and you know, it's a
Speaker 2: credit to all involved, and it really shows I think
Speaker 2: this is going to be a landmark mark golf course
Speaker 2: in the next era of municipal and public golf. It
Speaker 2: shows that and hopefully we'll prove over time that public
Speaker 2: golf architecture doesn't have to be boring, that you can
Speaker 2: hire great architects to do public projects. You don't have
Speaker 2: to just hire, you know, the guy that did the
Speaker 2: course down the street. This is this is really an
Speaker 2: exciting thing. I think the thing that I personally am
Speaker 2: most impressed by is that they didn't take any shortcuts.
Speaker 2: They didn't water anything down. This is an experience that
Speaker 2: you would expect to have at a private club. From
Speaker 2: a golf course perspective, it is a masterful design. Is
Speaker 2: super fun to play from what I gather talking to
Speaker 2: Seth and Dirk about the project. They kind of put
Speaker 2: together a group and they pulled everybody. You know, most
Speaker 2: people that invested in this are really into golf. They're
Speaker 2: super golf nuts. Dirk and Seth certainly are. They played
Speaker 2: a lot of the great golf courses and they wanted
Speaker 2: this place to be fun and accessible. So they pulled
Speaker 2: everybody involved on what fund meant, what fun golf meant,
Speaker 2: and tried to, you know, put that into the design
Speaker 2: and the effort around the golf course and the culture.
Speaker 2: So it's going to be a welcoming place. It is
Speaker 2: going to be relatively affordable. I think the greens feeds
Speaker 2: run from sixty dollars for West Palm Beach residents to
Speaker 2: about one hundred and twenty for Florida residents, and then
Speaker 2: you know, if you're coming from out of town, you'll
Speaker 2: get popped. But I think that's the right model. Let
Speaker 2: locals come play at affordable rates and it also has
Speaker 2: a short course, a lighted driving range, and a big
Speaker 2: putting green, a place that is going to be ideal
Speaker 2: for people to go learn the game. Along with the
Speaker 2: golf course, there's a comprehensive programming, educational programs, really different
Speaker 2: services to get kids interested in the game of golf.
Speaker 2: So what do you think about projects? What courses you
Speaker 2: should be most excited to go see? This is one
Speaker 2: of them. I think there's obviously a lot of resort
Speaker 2: development and a lot of private golf development that's going
Speaker 2: to get a lot of headlines in the next few years.
Speaker 2: But I can't think of any projects that are more
Speaker 2: important in golf than the ones that are accessible, open
Speaker 2: and close to people. And that's why I'm really excited
Speaker 2: about this course and what it will do hopefully for
Speaker 2: golf in the future. I think that this is obviously
Speaker 2: a project that was undertaken by people with means as
Speaker 2: well as people with connections. But it's not unrealistic for
Speaker 2: most cities to have setups like this and be able
Speaker 2: to invest in golf in a way that they can
Speaker 2: improve their golf course through their community. And and this
Speaker 2: is going to be a real credit to the community,
Speaker 2: a real landmark for the community, and I can't say
Speaker 2: enough about it. I'm thrilled that I got down to
Speaker 2: see it. I didn't. I was happy I could squeeze
Speaker 2: it in. I you know, I played this golf course
Speaker 2: the day after Augusta National. I was really excited to
Speaker 2: play Augusta And you know, that was obviously a surprise
Speaker 2: on my trip, as if for anybody that listened to
Speaker 2: the last podcast. But you know, I was almost equally
Speaker 2: as excited to go see what they've been cooking up
Speaker 2: at the park. I've seen a lot of Gill and
Speaker 2: Jim's work over the years. I've seen most of their
Speaker 2: American catalog of designs, and honestly, I would put this
Speaker 2: up there near the top of their work. So really, uh,
Speaker 2: really an awesome golf course. We're going to have more
Speaker 2: stuff to come on it. We will, uh, we'll have
Speaker 2: some visuals. We'll probably put together a video on the
Speaker 2: golf course on the YouTube page. I'm in the process
Speaker 2: of writing an article, and we'll have some photography and
Speaker 2: social content around it. So check that out. But most
Speaker 2: most importantly, book a trip down to the park. UH,
Speaker 2: play the play that golf course. I would uh, I'd
Speaker 2: be hard pressed to find a place that isn't more
Speaker 2: you know, want to get back out and play more
Speaker 2: golf at It's it's one of those places you're gonna
Speaker 2: want to lap. And you know what a great place
Speaker 2: to go visit, especially in the cold months of the winter.
Speaker 2: It is a place that you can bring your entire family.
Speaker 2: So Westbalm Beach now has an amazing golf course that
Speaker 2: everybody can play that's better than the vast majority of
Speaker 2: the private courses in town. So without further ado, here's
Speaker 2: Jim Wagon all right, So tell me about the when
Speaker 2: you first learned about the park and had you played
Speaker 2: the previous course, the West Palm Beach MUNI no.
Speaker 1: No, I never actually played the original version. I had
Speaker 1: been down there several years ago when we first started
Speaker 1: looking at moving down here. My brother owned a place
Speaker 1: and his son played a lot of golf, but he
Speaker 1: did not, so I actually set him up and him
Speaker 1: and I went, you know, just to get him at
Speaker 1: a deuced down to the park and took lessons with
Speaker 1: and I forget what her name is now, but she
Speaker 1: was an ex touring that had LPGA pro that had
Speaker 1: taken up residents or given lessons and so I had
Speaker 1: been exposed to it, but just not on the golf
Speaker 1: course itself.
Speaker 2: What were your first impressions when when you guys started
Speaker 2: to plan out the park and what it is today
Speaker 2: of the site, I mean, the.
Speaker 1: Site is unbelievable when you think about it, right, I
Speaker 1: mean when you compare everything to Florida. I mean we
Speaker 1: all know Florida golf right for the most part, with
Speaker 1: the exception of a very few, you know, courses, it's
Speaker 1: just it's fairly flat. There's not a lot of movement
Speaker 1: to it. But when you get to the park, I
Speaker 1: mean that's the first striking element of the property, is
Speaker 1: the amount of elevation change and the way the property rolls.
Speaker 1: No water on the property, right, because I think it
Speaker 1: was at one point, you know, from at least kind
Speaker 1: of the rumors that we heard is you know, before
Speaker 1: it was a golf course. That's you know, during hurricanes,
Speaker 1: that's where a lot of the farmers and ranchers in
Speaker 1: the area took the their cattle and their animals because
Speaker 1: it was high and dry. And I believe it probably
Speaker 1: sits on the same sand dune. It probably forms seminal, right,
Speaker 1: because it's a crow flies I don't believe it's not
Speaker 1: far from Seminal proper, but it's the same type of material, right,
Speaker 1: It's kind of a beach, you know, a beach type
Speaker 1: sand rounded sands that sit up on a on a
Speaker 1: little bit of a bluff. So it's it's nothing like
Speaker 1: you're used to seeing in the Florida mark with maybe
Speaker 1: the exception of Seminal.
Speaker 2: How uh nice?
Speaker 1: Was it? Was it?
Speaker 2: I mean I have to wonder was it refreshing to
Speaker 2: build a golf course that's like for the people? I think?
Speaker 2: You know, obviously in America a lot of the new
Speaker 2: builds are are either high end resorts or you know,
Speaker 2: private golf courses. Was it was there something exciting or
Speaker 2: or different about building a golf course that's really you know,
Speaker 2: municipal and locally focused in the place that you live.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean yeah, I mean for me, it's the
Speaker 1: excitement and the stuff because I think that all of
Speaker 1: our golf courses have, you know, the same thought process.
Speaker 1: We don't necessarily change it for public versus you know,
Speaker 1: private or resorts. I mean sure we do, you know,
Speaker 1: add some different elements to different things on a level
Speaker 1: of who we think the client's going to be from
Speaker 1: a design standpoint, but when you look at it from
Speaker 1: the excitement of it to me, I mean, it kind
Speaker 1: of means the world to me because that's what I
Speaker 1: grew up on, right growing up in Philadelphia. You know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't exposed to the private club, you know, lifestyle,
Speaker 1: so it was public GoF and fortunately it was it
Speaker 1: was really good public goth right with Cobbs Creek. You know,
Speaker 1: I lived what fifteen minutes from Cobbs Creek, so played
Speaker 1: a lot of golf on Cops Creek, which obviously has
Speaker 1: the charm and background and design from Hugh Wilson right
Speaker 1: at Marion. And then another golf course which is only
Speaker 1: about maybe five minutes from Marian called Paxon Hollow, which
Speaker 1: had you know, a huge and a lot of interesting
Speaker 1: and unique off course architecture elements is part of it.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, we're talking to Bill Kittleman, who
Speaker 1: does a lot of work with us and a mentor
Speaker 1: of Gill and I and was the pro marian for
Speaker 1: you know, every how many years, thirty thirty five years. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he recalls that Joe Valentine had spent some
Speaker 1: time over at Paxon Hollow, kind of helping them, you know,
Speaker 1: build bunkers and things of that nature. And you can
Speaker 1: kind of see that in the quality and the art
Speaker 1: behind the architecture there. So you know, I was fortunate
Speaker 1: to be able to you know, grow up in that
Speaker 1: environment of great architecture. So bringing something like this to
Speaker 1: you know, to Palm Beach and for all the kids
Speaker 1: and everybody who you know doesn't have the ability to
Speaker 1: play you know, uh, you know, high end public goth
Speaker 1: or private golf. I mean, I think to me is
Speaker 1: really the essence of the game and and and the
Speaker 1: start for everybody. I mean, it's awesome. It's awesome to
Speaker 1: be able to do something like that, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: at the park or eventually we get to much McCall
Speaker 1: it the Cops Creek or even you know in DC
Speaker 1: there's stuff and we're doing with the National Links Trust.
Speaker 1: So it's all great stuff and very important.
Speaker 2: I think you brought up seminoles as you know, similar land.
Speaker 2: Do you have any other comparisons to two courses that
Speaker 2: you've seen that it reminds you of maybe, I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot. I mean in Florida, I think
Speaker 1: Seminol is probably the only one. I mean, maybe some
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you know you see on the courses,
Speaker 1: stream songs just because of the elevation change there and
Speaker 1: the whole sand aspect to it. But you can go
Speaker 1: around the world, you know, and if you look and
Speaker 1: you go to you know, some of the stuff in Australia,
Speaker 1: you know, which was kind of some of our conversations,
Speaker 1: you've got elements because there is some flatness to the
Speaker 1: property even though there's elevation change to it, right, So
Speaker 1: there's things on the couple of the opening halls that
Speaker 1: maybe feel more like a Kingston Heath which is kind
Speaker 1: of flatish, you know, exposed sand. You know, you kind
Speaker 1: of get that that sand belt environment. And then there's
Speaker 1: aspects of it, you know, when you get to some
Speaker 1: of the elevation change hall, like the part three number eleven,
Speaker 1: that fels a little bit more like say Royal Melbourne.
Speaker 1: So there's definitely elements of it. So it's unique in
Speaker 1: that regard because it's Florida Golf elevation change, but you know,
Speaker 1: it does have this feeling of, say like an Australian
Speaker 1: sand milt environment.
Speaker 2: When you went about the design process, you said, obviously
Speaker 2: you don't you guys have kind of the same ethos,
Speaker 2: the same design mindset for every type of golf course,
Speaker 2: but you know, you you kind of tweak it for
Speaker 2: unique sit you for each situation with the with the park,
Speaker 2: obviously it's a you know, basically thirty investors all you know,
Speaker 2: involved with it. How was that design process and environment
Speaker 2: different than say, you know, where you're building for a
Speaker 2: single owner.
Speaker 1: I think from the single on a standpoint, and we've
Speaker 1: been very fortunate with a lot of the single owners
Speaker 1: that we've worked with. And you know, Michael, the HOOPI
Speaker 1: was great, Right, It's just you know, kind of turn
Speaker 1: us loose and let us do what that we do
Speaker 1: and create something fun and interesting. Right. That obviously was
Speaker 1: a little bit different because it was more of the
Speaker 1: match play components. So that was kind of more of
Speaker 1: our you know, philosophy and thought process and kind of
Speaker 1: the vernacular that we were using when we did work
Speaker 1: at a Hoopie. Whereas when we got to the park,
Speaker 1: we're starting to look at and think about some other stuff, right,
Speaker 1: is that sure? You know, we wanted to be fun,
Speaker 1: that's always something that we use. We wanted to be challenging,
Speaker 1: we wanted to be thought provoking. Right, They're all the
Speaker 1: kind of the vernacular of the words we were using.
Speaker 1: And then we kind of adopted one more, you know,
Speaker 1: element to that, and that was bold. Right. We talked
Speaker 1: a lot early on during the planning phases, Jill and
Speaker 1: I and Dirk Ziff and you know, some of the
Speaker 1: others that were involved, about the golf course being bold,
Speaker 1: you know, and there's a lot of definitions of bold.
Speaker 1: Bold doesn't need to be like, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: a Yale bold, you know, where you've got a lot
Speaker 1: of bold features. But bold can also mean taking chances,
Speaker 1: you know, do things different. And you know, a small
Speaker 1: green can be bold, you know. So there's stuff like
Speaker 1: that that kind of changed our thought process. And also
Speaker 1: we wanted to use the park as a way to
Speaker 1: kind of showcase what good architecture is all about. Right,
Speaker 1: And I actually think, you know, maybe I saw an
Speaker 1: email or you know, some stuff that maybe you had said, Andy,
Speaker 1: and believe it or not, you know, it was actually
Speaker 1: kind of spot on, is that, you know? Why why
Speaker 1: can't you know? Public? Of of course, architecture and public oth
Speaker 1: be and I guess I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but
Speaker 1: be you know, a showcase for what golf course architecture
Speaker 1: can be. Right, it seems like a lot of public
Speaker 1: goth is it starts out in a wad or down version,
Speaker 1: you know, to get people interested in the game and
Speaker 1: the move rounds through and for sake of ease of
Speaker 1: maintenance and all the other stuff that comes in. But
Speaker 1: why can't architecture that people are seeing for the first time,
Speaker 1: or public architecture, that's call it. Why can't public architecture,
Speaker 1: you know, match that that beauty of private club architecture
Speaker 1: in the Golden Age architecture and all of this stuff
Speaker 1: that you know, all of us that really love and
Speaker 1: enjoy golf and golf course architecture like to see in golf,
Speaker 1: and that kind of you know, spearheaded us to be
Speaker 1: a little bit think, a little bit outside the box.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my kind of takeaway from it. I mean,
Speaker 2: on this podcast people have heard me talk about this
Speaker 2: for years, but you know, where it doesn't make any
Speaker 2: sense that the people people's entrance to the game of golf,
Speaker 2: which happens at public and municipal golf courses, is the
Speaker 2: least interesting version of golf there is, Like, if you
Speaker 2: thought about it, with any food, any food variety, any
Speaker 2: you know, really like any anything. Like if I said,
Speaker 2: you know, I always use the coffee reference. Like if
Speaker 2: I said to you and you say you didn't drink coffee,
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, listen, I think you should drink coffee.
Speaker 2: And I took you to like a gas station at
Speaker 2: two in the morning and poured you a cup of
Speaker 2: coffee and said, here you go. This is great. You're
Speaker 2: going to love this. You'd be like, this is this
Speaker 2: is awful. You know you and that's what we do
Speaker 2: with golf. And I think you know the thing that
Speaker 2: you hit on that I was super impressed by it.
Speaker 2: I was curious. Is like to me, from what I've seen,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen all the courses you guys have built.
Speaker 2: I feel like I've seen a fair amount. The greens
Speaker 2: were reminded me a lot of the greens that you
Speaker 2: built at a hoopie match club where you where you
Speaker 2: and Gil have talked about how when you're when it's
Speaker 2: not a pencil in scorecard situation, you could felt more
Speaker 2: liberated to build bold features. To me, the greens at
Speaker 2: the park like you go to the first green and
Speaker 2: you see this, you know, eight foot false front and
Speaker 2: or maybe not eight probably six foot falls front and
Speaker 2: you say, wow, like I did not expect to see this,
Speaker 2: like you know, right off the bat, it's it. It
Speaker 2: has you know, you use the word bold, but there
Speaker 2: to me like very adventurous greens from from start to finish,
Speaker 2: and oftentimes would say you can't have that at a
Speaker 2: public course. Is is there anything with a hoopie and
Speaker 2: the praise that a hoopie's gotten over the years that's
Speaker 2: allowed you guys to feel more liberated on the greens
Speaker 2: at future builds.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. I don't think so. I mean
Speaker 1: it could have a little bit in me. It was
Speaker 1: kind of funny because when I was thinking of what
Speaker 1: type of question you were going to ask me, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of got towards you know, the
Speaker 1: bold question and kind of what you just said, and
Speaker 1: the first the first green was kind of in my
Speaker 1: mind right. And it's scary that you're thinking like I
Speaker 1: am or I'm thinking like you are, but it you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that and you're right like that
Speaker 1: that is part of it, whether it ties into hoopie
Speaker 1: or not, you know, I mean it could in some
Speaker 1: in some regards but I think if it ties into
Speaker 1: hoopy at least from my standpoint on kind of the
Speaker 1: greens that that I worked on is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I like to think more about the recovery shot, right,
Speaker 1: and when you look at a hoopie, and if you're
Speaker 1: going to kind of compare that fall process to the park,
Speaker 1: then it would be the same because the match play.
Speaker 1: The thought process at least that I had is that, Okay,
Speaker 1: what are the recovery shots, like, you know, the recovery
Speaker 1: shot or the guy who's getting a shot and he's
Speaker 1: playing you know, match play and he's not on the green, Like,
Speaker 1: what's the interest of that shot? How does he get
Speaker 1: the ball closed? How does it then put pressure on
Speaker 1: his playing opponent who may have a fifteen footer for birdie,
Speaker 1: but he's not in the best part of the of
Speaker 1: the of the green. So that was kind of the
Speaker 1: thought process of the hoopie. Now it's kind of the
Speaker 1: same thought process at the park because you're thinking a
Speaker 1: lot about the average player, the higher handicapper, you know,
Speaker 1: the people who are first out at and it's the
Speaker 1: first you know, you know, experience on either playing the
Speaker 1: park or golf in general. They're not going to hit
Speaker 1: a lot of greens. They're going to miss a lot
Speaker 1: of greens. So what's their recovery, what's their shot, third shot?
Speaker 1: What's the fourth shot into the greens? And what's the
Speaker 1: interest of that Being able to give them a place
Speaker 1: that they feel that they can play a ball off of,
Speaker 1: or a feature that can play you know around or
Speaker 1: need to play around, but just a really to get
Speaker 1: them thinking about what that shot looks like. I think
Speaker 1: if you put all that together, I think it lends
Speaker 1: you to feel that you can be more creative, you
Speaker 1: can do some different stuff because it's a different thought process.
Speaker 1: It's not solely about the approach shot into the green, right,
Speaker 1: it's about the recovery of a mishit approach shot. And
Speaker 1: then I think that leads to an element of fun
Speaker 1: and a lot of stuff we've been hearing about the
Speaker 1: park is exactly what you're bringing up. It's the greens.
Speaker 1: It's the fun on the greens, it's the fun around
Speaker 1: the greens, it's the green complexes. So I think that
Speaker 1: would kind of be the only parallel between the two,
Speaker 1: which is interesting and I'm glad you picked up on it.
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Speaker 2: One question I was thinking about is, like, obviously, one
Speaker 2: of the big rebuttals to building interesting architecture at a
Speaker 2: like what we're talking about with greens, for example, at
Speaker 2: a public golf course would be immediately people would say
Speaker 2: pace of play. This is going to be a pace
Speaker 2: of play nightmare. How do you alleviate the pace of
Speaker 2: play potential issue by building into like, what are some
Speaker 2: some features of the park that are going to help
Speaker 2: move people around the golf course quickly?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean think the pace of play, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting conversation because you know, if you
Speaker 1: look at public public goth and you talk about pace
Speaker 1: of play regardless of how the golf course plays itself.
Speaker 1: But let's talk about the use of carts and cart
Speaker 1: paths and car pairs only on certain instances. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about the beverage cut, and let's talk about the time
Speaker 1: that people spend you know, you know, getting drinks and
Speaker 1: doing all that stuff that are knocked off related, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's probably going to add twenty minutes to
Speaker 1: a round the golf right there, you know, because you're
Speaker 1: stopping on the on the front nine and again on
Speaker 1: the back nine, So you know, there's a pace of
Speaker 1: play issue right there that starts with it. And I
Speaker 1: think just from the way the park is going to
Speaker 1: be a run, you know, with having a caddy program
Speaker 1: and walking I think is mandatory before a certain time
Speaker 1: in the morning. I think those elements are going to
Speaker 1: help with the overall pace of play. But from a
Speaker 1: play standpoint, it's just it's relying more on ground features
Speaker 1: and contours as it is opposed to a lot of bunkering.
Speaker 1: Right you know, you played the park. I mean even
Speaker 1: look at number one and you said number one perfect example. Sure,
Speaker 1: the left side of that green does have about a
Speaker 1: five or six foot elevation change that could have been
Speaker 1: fairway turf just as much it was as it was
Speaker 1: green and still pretty much play the same way. The
Speaker 1: rest of the green doesn't have as obviously as much
Speaker 1: contour as that, But the front of that green is
Speaker 1: wide open, you know what I mean. There's not bunkering
Speaker 1: tight to the green. I think there's some bunkering off
Speaker 1: to the right hand side, a little bit onto the
Speaker 1: left hand side, which is pretty far out of play.
Speaker 1: It's probably about one hundred feet maybe one hundred and
Speaker 1: ten feet wide. The approach to that green, you know,
Speaker 1: it's fairly significant. So things like that, and if you
Speaker 1: make your way around the park probably you know, eighty
Speaker 1: percent of the greens are that way. They have a
Speaker 1: lot of interest in them, but they're very playable from
Speaker 1: that standpoint. And on number one, since you're chatting about
Speaker 1: you know, from a challenge from a better players standpoint,
Speaker 1: they may try to get there into or if they
Speaker 1: lay up, but you do still need to hit a
Speaker 1: little bit of an exacting shot to get close to
Speaker 1: be able to make birdie on that green. But it's
Speaker 1: not penal for the average players, so they're still able
Speaker 1: to make their way around the property. You know, relative
Speaker 1: ease as opposed to being in bunkers. Are relying a
Speaker 1: lot on bunkers, and you know, people playing ping pong
Speaker 1: and two to get out of the bunker then knocking
Speaker 1: it over the green. You know, So I think that
Speaker 1: helps significt with the pace of play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the other things about it,
Speaker 2: and I I played this, I played in a for
Speaker 2: like a thirty to forty mile our wind. I mean
Speaker 2: it was common. It was uh, it was not nice.
Speaker 2: It was uh. And like when that wind got off
Speaker 2: my left toward at the end of the round, I
Speaker 2: was getting tired. I had been you know, I gotten
Speaker 2: in late the night before. I was getting tired. My
Speaker 2: legs were gone. I started hitting these whitey fades. And
Speaker 2: when the wind was coming off my left, I mean,
Speaker 2: the ball was going miles right. One of the things
Speaker 2: I quickly picked up on is this very hard to
Speaker 2: lose a golf ball out there. I mean, like I
Speaker 2: think that, yeah, I can't. We used to. I used
Speaker 2: to be before I started the Friday Egg. I used
Speaker 2: to play you know, uh, all around Chicago. But one
Speaker 2: of the places we would play is this course called
Speaker 2: Harbor Side. It was on the South side of Chicago,
Speaker 2: and and you know, they had this this this rough
Speaker 2: and I have a buddy that was you know, it
Speaker 2: was a little bit wild off the tee and we
Speaker 2: I wouldn't play there anymore with him because like we
Speaker 2: just spend all day looking for golf balls, and it
Speaker 2: was you know, that was the time that we were spending,
Speaker 2: you know, and that's why it would pile up to
Speaker 2: a five hour round is because everybody on the golf
Speaker 2: course is looking for golf balls, and that it seems
Speaker 2: like it would be it's very challenging. I'm sure everybody
Speaker 2: would be like, oh, you haven't seen me play, But
Speaker 2: it is a place that it is almost difficult to
Speaker 2: lose a golf ball.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, first two comments. First one, when you started
Speaker 1: this question, you talked about your your wipey fae with
Speaker 1: the wind coming off the left. The only reason why
Speaker 1: it wasn't a whitey faide on the other holes is
Speaker 1: because the wind was coming off your right. The ball
Speaker 1: out either way, it's still a wipey thing. The wind
Speaker 1: just helped you in a favorable manner in that case.
Speaker 1: But no, you're right, you know. So that's a great point,
Speaker 1: you know, is that it is hard to lose a
Speaker 1: golf ball there. Right, The play courters are extremely wide.
Speaker 1: Even when you get into the exposed sandi aras out
Speaker 1: of play, there's enough vegetation to make the rough unpredictable.
Speaker 1: But yet it's in more of an open habit form
Speaker 1: where you can easily find your golf ball. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've played there a handful times, and
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever lost the golf ball, and
Speaker 1: I can hit some of those whitey fades as well.
Speaker 1: But that's another important component that was part of our discussion. Point.
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of things that had happened prior
Speaker 1: on that property due to kind of the sugar rounded sands,
Speaker 1: is that there was problems with windblow because there was
Speaker 1: a lot of exposedand golf carts were getting stuck in
Speaker 1: the exposed end. The sand was so white and blinding
Speaker 1: that people were actually losing balls in the sand because
Speaker 1: everything bled together. So we took a lot of that
Speaker 1: into consideration, and that's why you kind of see some
Speaker 1: of that natively rough stuff. We've actually planned in a
Speaker 1: bunch more native so it holds the sand in place
Speaker 1: for the most part. We're not going to have a
Speaker 1: lot of car traffic, so the carts are going to
Speaker 1: be minimal, and then it also helps you find golf balls.
Speaker 1: But that was all part of it, and we did
Speaker 1: and we removed and transplanted and moved a lot of
Speaker 1: the native material around the property and kind of condensed
Speaker 1: in the areas that we're out of play. There's nothing
Speaker 1: worse in Florida golf than losing your ball and you
Speaker 1: know those palmettos. Uh, you know, they're just they're they're
Speaker 1: they're just it's horrible for the game of cough for
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: With the uh with the fairway lines. One thing I
Speaker 2: was wondering about you talked about the kind of sandy areas.
Speaker 2: I was out there obviously a day it was wind windy.
Speaker 2: I saw sand moving in. Are you anticipating kind of
Speaker 2: a I think, of course people would be most familiar
Speaker 2: with would be like Pinehurst number two, where maybe those
Speaker 2: fairway lines kind of move with the with the environment
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what we're open for andy, right, and
Speaker 1: that's why we did it. I mean, one, I think
Speaker 1: that helps some maintenance costs. And you're not hardlining it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just kind of a golf construction architecture term,
Speaker 1: but you're not hardlighting the golf course that you see
Speaker 1: in the desert where you're setting up irrigation. You're adding
Speaker 1: irrigation heads and you're throwing half heads to go ahead
Speaker 1: and control the water and and have this this line
Speaker 1: of fairway slash rough that stays consistent, you know, for
Speaker 1: the next twenty five thirty years. Whatever it is. You know,
Speaker 1: we're set up so that whatever mother nature does, whether
Speaker 1: it's the windblow moving things around, that's going to help
Speaker 1: enhance the golf course. Whether it's you know, depending on
Speaker 1: the time of year, right where you get more rain,
Speaker 1: you make it some more run in the in the
Speaker 1: spriggs and the Bermuda grass and make it more runners
Speaker 1: that creep out, and then that turns into a little
Speaker 1: bit more of a rough area and you may get
Speaker 1: some areas that there's more die back. So yeah, we
Speaker 1: hope it kind of moves back and forth. Pinehurst number
Speaker 1: two or four is a good example. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of great examples in the warm season climates
Speaker 1: of that happening. Stream Song is kind of the same way, right,
Speaker 1: It's all the same thought processes. You know, we're focusing
Speaker 1: more on the play areas, right, greens, teas, fairways of
Speaker 1: being great, great condition, great from a play standpoint, but
Speaker 1: as you get offline, things become a little bit more unpredictable.
Speaker 1: They're allowed to move and kind of you know, go
Speaker 1: back and forth really basically depending on what mother nature does.
Speaker 1: You know, any given year, any given month.
Speaker 2: Is there a stretch of holes out there that you
Speaker 2: particularly think about or or you know a few single
Speaker 2: holes scattered about. Is there you know a hole that
Speaker 2: you love terms of you know what what was built
Speaker 2: into the ground and maybe you know, maybe it's something
Speaker 2: that's really loud, so maybe something that's really quiet from
Speaker 2: you know, the intricacy standpoint.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, my case is always a little bit
Speaker 1: of a story behind you know, some of the stuff
Speaker 1: that we do. But to me, it's the watch McCall.
Speaker 1: It's the fifteenth hole, you know, part five uphill right,
Speaker 1: It's it's not a long hole. So we had to
Speaker 1: come up and kind of be creative on how we
Speaker 1: were going to go ahead and do something around the
Speaker 1: green that we weren't really you know, the premise wasn't bunkering, right,
Speaker 1: we kind of we kind of did that. Eventually did
Speaker 1: that on nine just so we could be a little
Speaker 1: bit different. So nine has got a little bit more bunking.
Speaker 1: But on fifteen we're trying to come up with a concept.
Speaker 1: And you know, Jill and I were with with Dirk
Speaker 1: and we were looking at some uh, you know, some
Speaker 1: photos and we saw a photo of the Jockey Club
Speaker 1: right Brandness Areas and it was a picture and you
Speaker 1: know they used a lot of mounds in and around
Speaker 1: the Jockey Club on creating their interest. So I was
Speaker 1: looking at this picture and it kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of stuck in my head and then went and
Speaker 1: recreated or what I thought was recreating that picture that
Speaker 1: I saw. And that's how that big mound ended up
Speaker 1: in front of the green, which is kind of really
Speaker 1: a cool feature, right if you're trying to go forward
Speaker 1: into and there's a lot of interest in and around
Speaker 1: behind it. So that was really the premise for the
Speaker 1: green side and how tied into the ridge. And then
Speaker 1: the average player probably on their third shot if they
Speaker 1: missed the green, they can miss it right, but then
Speaker 1: they're looking right up at the mouth of the green,
Speaker 1: and then they had the support of that big mound
Speaker 1: on the left, and you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: support for them as opposed to the guy who's going
Speaker 1: forward into. You know, they got to contend with that.
Speaker 1: The green's real narrow if you try to carry that knot,
Speaker 1: and there's a little slot that you can play through,
Speaker 1: you know, to help for the ball to be more
Speaker 1: receptive if you're hitting a longer iron into it. So
Speaker 1: built the whole thing kind of had it set up
Speaker 1: and was kind of thinking about again and looking back,
Speaker 1: and I brought it up up, you know, the whole
Speaker 1: you know, the concept of the jockey club, and I forgot.
Speaker 1: I was talking to him like, oh, yeah, I've played
Speaker 1: down I remember that golf hole. And then they started
Speaker 1: walking through the golf hole and lo and behold, like
Speaker 1: the picture I was looking at, which I thought from
Speaker 1: was from the fairway, was not actually from the fairway.
Speaker 1: It was from like the back left of the green.
Speaker 1: So the man in this case was not even like
Speaker 1: in front of the green. It was off to the
Speaker 1: back of the green. So I had envisioned it, you know,
Speaker 1: probably my dyslexi is setting in envisioned it from a
Speaker 1: totally different angle, and we ended up building you know,
Speaker 1: the fifteenth hole, which ends up I think being really
Speaker 1: fun and interesting and kind of a cool way to
Speaker 1: handle a short part five. But you know, it was
Speaker 1: something that, you know, my inspiration was totally opposite of
Speaker 1: what was actually built.
Speaker 2: So to be the fifteenth represents, like one of the
Speaker 2: themes of the golf choruses is what you can do
Speaker 2: with just simple green orientation and angles. Yes, you know,
Speaker 2: I think everybody thinks about like you have to have
Speaker 2: you know, obviously, like you have holes, you have a
Speaker 2: lot of variety out there. There's a ton of different stuff.
Speaker 2: You have a hole like nine where it's kind of
Speaker 2: on the flatter part of the land where you have
Speaker 2: a ton of ton of bunkering that I love that hole. Also,
Speaker 2: that's a super fun shot in there if you're going
Speaker 2: forward and two. But then you have a lot of
Speaker 2: greens that are dictated by you know, just simple angles
Speaker 2: and and contouring. Can you talk a little bit about,
Speaker 2: you know, what you can do when you just when
Speaker 2: you're just using angles to create strategy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess in this case we chatted about a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier, is you know, really not using a
Speaker 1: lot of bunkering other than just a few cases, is
Speaker 1: what the defining strategy is around each individual golf hole, Right,
Speaker 1: It's more along the lines of width. And if you
Speaker 1: get the width and bunkering is not the key to everything,
Speaker 1: then it comes down to when you're separating out the
Speaker 1: better players and the higher handicappers. Right, the better players
Speaker 1: need to learn how to play the golf course and
Speaker 1: get themselves on the right part of the fairway where
Speaker 1: they have the best angle into the green right, and
Speaker 1: that's all over that golf course for the most point.
Speaker 1: And number two has it well. One has it as well. Right,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna play down well and you're playing your
Speaker 1: second shot, you know you're gonna have to play it
Speaker 1: down the right hand side of the green in order
Speaker 1: to get the better role or the better angle into
Speaker 1: the green. You miss it left and you've got to
Speaker 1: come over that big bump. So angles were everywhere everywhere
Speaker 1: on the property. It's on number two. Right. The way
Speaker 1: that green is long and narrow, you know, front left
Speaker 1: to kind of back rightish, you know, So playing down
Speaker 1: the left is a better angle. But the average player
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, right, the average player, they keep the ball,
Speaker 1: They find the ball, they keep it in play, even
Speaker 1: no matter where they hit into the proach. Sure, the
Speaker 1: angle the green is tougher, but they can play away
Speaker 1: from you know, trying to be say on number two,
Speaker 1: trying to get there in two. If they don't hit
Speaker 1: a good drive, they can play up to the left
Speaker 1: and be forty you are sure to the green and
Speaker 1: then they'll be looking right down the whole length of
Speaker 1: the green, you know what I mean. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things like that out there, but angles do
Speaker 1: help for sure. I mean it's all over in golf, right,
Speaker 1: you know, all the great old architecture. You know, it's
Speaker 1: all about angles and fun. But more so I think
Speaker 1: in trying to create that difference for you know, public gofference,
Speaker 1: trying to open things up. I think you look at
Speaker 1: Augusta too. Augusta's abad angles, right, you were just there.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of angles into those greens,
Speaker 1: and not so much maybe the angle, but the angle
Speaker 1: of the shot shape that you hit in. For the
Speaker 1: better players, right, you know, you have to shape shots
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably the case at the park
Speaker 1: as well, Right, you have to shape shots of a
Speaker 1: certain angle to go ahead, to be more receptive into
Speaker 1: the greens. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things too, with with what
Speaker 2: you guys did there is like having like a lot
Speaker 2: of long, narrow greens yep, set on different angles. What
Speaker 2: it does I mean, like, good, the average player is
Speaker 2: probably gonna hit what six greens around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably average five.
Speaker 2: So it's like okay there, It's not like you could
Speaker 2: design you could build huge greens and they probably might
Speaker 2: hit two more. You know, it's not making like a
Speaker 2: considerable difference, right, But when you set you know, so
Speaker 2: they're gonna be chipping most of the time, right, And
Speaker 2: for the better player, All of a sudden, when you
Speaker 2: create those like good players misspin high right, and when
Speaker 2: you have narrow greens set on hard angles, it becomes
Speaker 2: very hard to miss pin high right. Like then you
Speaker 2: start to catch those contours. Like I think about the fifteenth.
Speaker 2: The fifteenth was like extremely disorienting. My range finder was
Speaker 2: ran out of battery, so I I was I was
Speaker 2: too lazy to go look at a sprinkler head. I
Speaker 2: just kind of was eyeballing everything, and it was so
Speaker 2: windy that it was like kind of an eyeball day,
Speaker 2: you know, where you're just feeling shots and I just
Speaker 2: I just shipped it way over the green, like you know,
Speaker 2: I thought it was way further obviously with the mound
Speaker 2: obscuring it. But like that's the thing I think that
Speaker 2: kind of makes you want to keep going back there
Speaker 2: is like there's a lot of shots out there that
Speaker 2: are disorienting, and your eye leads you to believe one
Speaker 2: thing then that's different than from what is actually happening.
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, I mean to take much McCall five.
Speaker 1: Take the Beer Rich for example, right, and Gil did
Speaker 1: a great job on that because it's a lot of
Speaker 1: different shots that you need to hit in there. If
Speaker 1: that pin isn't in the front or in the middle swale,
Speaker 1: you're not flying into the pin right that there says
Speaker 1: it's probably like what two fifteen or something to the
Speaker 1: middle of that green. But that's not the shot. You know.
Speaker 1: It's fine because at the front of the green is
Speaker 1: wide open. The average player, they can hit a hybrid
Speaker 1: or a three wood or whatever they want out there.
Speaker 1: It's gonna end up somewhere in tight mo and they're
Speaker 1: gonna have an interesting, you know, fun you know, approach,
Speaker 1: recovery shot, whatever're going to call it into into that
Speaker 1: pin location. But the better player who's finally learned how
Speaker 1: to play, you're not going to know this right away,
Speaker 1: is probably not trying to fly the ball to the pin.
Speaker 1: You're probably knocking the ball twenty twenty five yards short,
Speaker 1: right in to the bump that kind of comes off
Speaker 1: the approach and ties into the right side of the green.
Speaker 1: If you can hit a shot into there with a
Speaker 1: little right to left action and take a little bit
Speaker 1: of the heat off of it. You're most likely going
Speaker 1: to come to rest you in the front or down
Speaker 1: into the middle of that's whale, and it's going to
Speaker 1: be very rewarding for you. But it's gonna take a while.
Speaker 1: So it's out there and it does help, and I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the beauty of it, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the unique aspects of this was you've
Speaker 2: mentioned him a couple of times. Dirk Zeff, who was
Speaker 2: a you know, part of your part of the investment
Speaker 2: group of the golf course, but also longtime golf architecture nut,
Speaker 2: who I believe you guys have kind of worked with
Speaker 2: at a few other projects before. Talk about his involvement
Speaker 2: with the with the project.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, Yeah, So Dirk was one of the initial founders,
Speaker 1: one part of the foundation, you know, and and him
Speaker 1: and along with Dan Stanton and Sethwell and a couple
Speaker 1: of the other guys you know, obviously did a great
Speaker 1: job in raising the money. And Dirk's a huge architecture buff.
Speaker 1: You know, we've known Dirk for a while. I think
Speaker 1: Gil first met anyway where as a member you know,
Speaker 1: years back, and we were working there and they kind
Speaker 1: of struck up a relationship, friendship relationship, but also an
Speaker 1: architectural relationship. Right. Dirk's extremely thoughtful, very knowledgeable, especially in
Speaker 1: the golf course architecture. And he's also a member of
Speaker 1: at the Vineyard Club. So when we did the work
Speaker 1: up at the Vineyard Club and kind of moved stuff around,
Speaker 1: you know, was he was out there with us, and
Speaker 1: you know, again from another set of eyes and just
Speaker 1: his knowledge and golf course architecture to be able to
Speaker 1: see things and understand I mean, I think it was great.
Speaker 1: It's always good to collaborate with folks, right and just
Speaker 1: to get their their view and their opinion on stuff,
Speaker 1: especially when they've they've got a good understanding of what
Speaker 1: makes fun interesting architecture. And that's what Dirk does and
Speaker 1: that's what he helped us do at the Vineyard Club.
Speaker 1: And then you know, fast forward just you know, playing
Speaker 1: some golf with him and getting to know him as well,
Speaker 1: and then when this came up, you know, it was great,
Speaker 1: and then his involvement was awesome. And again he's played
Speaker 1: a lot of golf at a lot of great clubs
Speaker 1: around the world, so helping you know, work you know
Speaker 1: through the routing, and he had a lot of great
Speaker 1: routing ideas and then you know a lot of the
Speaker 1: discussions and to me that that was kind of the
Speaker 1: best part about working with him, is just being able
Speaker 1: to have those discussions, right, kicking ideas off of other
Speaker 1: folks about what makes great, fun, interesting architecture because it
Speaker 1: has to become thought provoking, right. I mean, we can
Speaker 1: all get set in our ways and what we do
Speaker 1: and how we look at stuff, and you know, to
Speaker 1: be able to have you know, other folks and you know,
Speaker 1: it's not just circu it's also all of our caveman
Speaker 1: guys that work with us, and we're all, you know,
Speaker 1: really strong architecturally, but just being able to have that
Speaker 1: network of folks that you can talk about and what
Speaker 1: makes cool architecture and another set of eyes sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: in life and just with what we all have going on.
Speaker 1: You get really busy, right, and you're working on other
Speaker 1: projects and you're working there, and sometimes you go out
Speaker 1: there and you know, you've got interviews with you know,
Speaker 1: the Friday Friday guys, you know, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: now you're carving out some time, which is all great stuff,
Speaker 1: but you know, you can miss stuff. So I think
Speaker 1: you know, Dirk's knowledge and you know, and his enthusiasm
Speaker 1: for architecture and his thoughtfulness and uh was was was
Speaker 1: great for us. It was great for me personally, and
Speaker 1: I know I can't speak for Gil, but it was
Speaker 1: great for me. And I think it was great for
Speaker 1: the project to have those conversations. You know, he was
Speaker 1: one of the first ones we started talking to about boldness, right,
Speaker 1: and what does bold mean? Uh? And I remember we were,
Speaker 1: you know, we were playing golf and him and I
Speaker 1: had that discussion and it was great. You know, mounds
Speaker 1: like the mounds around eight Green and Augusta are bold.
Speaker 1: Not only are the mounds somewhat bold, but the concept
Speaker 1: is bold. Right. The Jockey Club mounds are bold, right,
Speaker 1: which obviously would tie into Mackenzie, but it's all part
Speaker 1: of it, right, And to have folks like that his involvement,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, helped us make you know, the
Speaker 1: park a much better place.
Speaker 2: I imagine it seems like to be you know, most
Speaker 2: of the foundation members are are just at their core
Speaker 2: golf nuts, and that probably allowed this project to have
Speaker 2: a little bit more of what you're calling boldness, where
Speaker 2: if you have a bunch of people that love golf.
Speaker 2: A lot of people that travel to play the greatest
Speaker 2: golf courses in the world, they're going to be a
Speaker 2: lot more open to ideas like the mounding of the fifteenth.
Speaker 1: Sure, exactly. Yeah, you have to have folks have to
Speaker 1: have a little bit of an architectural IQ. We'll call
Speaker 1: it right on what makes fun interesting golf. You know,
Speaker 1: we've had in the past, we've had clients that, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe don't understand as much about that. There's members of
Speaker 1: clubs that we've gone in and restored and we built
Speaker 1: that don't have as much architectural IQ. Or I shouldn't
Speaker 1: say that. Maybe it's just the fact of what they're
Speaker 1: used to playing and what their projects or their clubs
Speaker 1: used to be, right. And Bill Killman says it all
Speaker 1: the time. He's like, people want change, but they don't
Speaker 1: want anything different, right, And how do you give them
Speaker 1: that in the golf course? They want to change their current.
Speaker 1: Of course, you make the changes in there, and then
Speaker 1: they don't like it because it's different than what they're
Speaker 1: used to and that kind of you know, makes people crazy. Uh.
Speaker 1: And the fact that we were able to blow this
Speaker 1: up and work with people that had the architectural IQ
Speaker 1: with a willingness to be different right and create something
Speaker 1: fun And what did that mean and take the time
Speaker 1: to understand and research it. I think I think is important.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, again, we're fortunate, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and who we've worked with early on in
Speaker 1: our career. You know, we had a guy who thought
Speaker 1: fun architecture was planning a lot of trees out on
Speaker 1: the property so we had a place to go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom. You know. So you get a lot of
Speaker 1: weird stuff like that. You know, you get a lot
Speaker 1: of guys that are more worried about the cost of
Speaker 1: stuff or or what other people are doing right. And
Speaker 1: and this becomes a big theme to become big theme
Speaker 1: in our past couple of projects, whether it's in a
Speaker 1: whoopie with with Michael, or it was out at Lader
Speaker 1: or with Irving, or it was all the guys at
Speaker 1: the park and the foundation just really is you know,
Speaker 1: willingness to look at things differently, right, to do things differently.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be about the marketplace. I mean
Speaker 1: some of the projects you know we heard of other
Speaker 1: people involved the outside of ownership was well, the marketplace
Speaker 1: doesn't want that the marketplace place doesn't want this in
Speaker 1: you know, Palm Springs, California. Well, you know what, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe that marketplace is old and tired, right, maybe we
Speaker 1: need to do something different and look at it differently.
Speaker 1: And those three projects right there and really the park,
Speaker 1: you know, we're willing to do that, and that becomes
Speaker 1: extremely important in the success of the project because then
Speaker 1: our thought process out on the job when we're designing
Speaker 1: and making field changes in building is something totally different,
Speaker 1: and I think that's important to be able to create
Speaker 1: the interest that we did at the park.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think thinking outside the box is Obviously you're
Speaker 2: in an art form. If everybody's doing the same thing,
Speaker 2: it gets pretty boring. And being able to bring especially
Speaker 2: this is a perfect example, bring a completely different type
Speaker 2: of public golf course to the market than what exists there.
Speaker 2: Having lived in the area, I can assure you there's
Speaker 2: nothing like this golf course. Most have ponds all over
Speaker 2: the place. You're gonna lose you know, I made a
Speaker 2: joke with somebody. I was like, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: lose a lot of golf balls, but when I'm in
Speaker 2: South Florida, I lose a lot of golf balls no
Speaker 2: matter where I'm playing, you know, the combination of wind
Speaker 2: and water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, quite frankly. And you may you may lose more
Speaker 1: from a dollar I standpoint, more money and golf balls
Speaker 1: and you paid for a green speed, Yeah you should.
Speaker 1: You should do that. Do a little segment of different
Speaker 1: golf courses and everybody's hometown where it costs more money
Speaker 1: and golf balls, even even Kirklands from Wetchman call you
Speaker 1: can lose two doan Kirklands. What's that thirty five dollars?
Speaker 1: I mean that's some green fees for at some places.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So it's a completely new golf course to
Speaker 2: be like the park, and and we'll see. I think
Speaker 2: it's set up to age extremely well. But you know,
Speaker 2: the park reminds me of going to like a dream
Speaker 2: song more so than playing golf at a municipal golf
Speaker 2: course in a city. And I think that's the special
Speaker 2: thing about it is that you're that you know, people
Speaker 2: that go visit there are going to be treated to
Speaker 2: a different type of public golf experience than they've ever
Speaker 2: had before. And that's the it's really really exciting. Congratulations
Speaker 2: on on the great job, and I'm looking forward to
Speaker 2: seeing more of your guys work down the down the
Speaker 2: road here.
Speaker 1: All right, great, no, all good, nice chatting and when
Speaker 1: you can finally get out of California and make your
Speaker 1: way back down here, you know, well, we'll show you
Speaker 1: some more stuff.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's episode was edited by Matt Ruce's Thank you, Matt, Yeah,
Speaker 2: thanks Jim for coming on. We will be back next week.
Speaker 2: This is a one episode week. I think Garrett might
Speaker 2: equing out, but we had some you know, Garrett had
Speaker 2: some travel, I had some travel. I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of travel lately, and we just needed a little bit
Speaker 2: of a week to regroup and we'll be back on
Speaker 2: the two episode week schedule starting next week. In the meantime,
Speaker 2: if you're interested in more golf course content from us,
Speaker 2: we're humming in Club TFP. I just finished a write
Speaker 2: up for Chicago Golf Club. That's the latest course review.
Speaker 2: Last week was a hoopy match. Club next week is Belvidere.
Speaker 2: On top of that, we've got We did a Club
Speaker 2: tf hangout this week, which is basically like an hour
Speaker 2: long podcast. We talked about the new Dream Golf project
Speaker 2: in Colorado. You know the and what we expected from
Speaker 2: Jimmy Craig there and much more so. Discounts, merchandise, early
Speaker 2: access to events, all sorts of stuff. Visit theffride egg
Speaker 2: dot com slash membership if you want to learn more.
Speaker 2: It's one hundred and twenty dollars for the entire you're here,
Speaker 2: and that gets you a ton of stuff. So thank
Speaker 2: you guys for listening to another episode of the Friday.
Speaker 2: We will be back next week and thank you to
Speaker 2: Jim for joining