WEBVTT - Introducing The Park with Jim Wagner of Hanse Golf Course Design 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:06.960 And when I find my ball in a brid egg 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.480 Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, fridagg bride 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.120 egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.160 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.240 Today's episode is with Jim Wagner. Jim is a design 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.959 partner at Hands Golf Design. He is obviously Gill's right 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.720 hand guy, you know, deeply involved with every project that 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.680 UH Hands Golf Design is UH is doing, which is 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.120 right now, they have quite a few projects. We are 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:01.080 going to go into great detail on today's episode about 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.000 the park. The park is opening this week. It opened 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.520 on Monday, and it is a new public golf facility 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.399 in West Palm Beach. It is a mere ten minutes 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:18.400 from the airport, very close to Jupiter, Boyton Beach, Delray Beach, 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:23.120 all sorts of vacation spots down there in South Florida. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.760 Obviously pretty close to Fort Lauderdale in Miami as well. 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:32.520 The park is a new development which was an old course, 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.080 so it was the West Palm Beach golf Course, which 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.080 was a Dick Wilson designed from about I think it 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.120 was nineteen forty seven. It was a golf course that 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.679 had gone out to pasture, so you know, it was 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:50.800 losing the city money and it closed down and had 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:55.800 been non operational for about five years. It was resurrected 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:01.320 by Sethwah, who obviously you know, is the CEO of 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.880 the PGA. He was doing this not as the PGA, 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:11.320 but as a citizen. His real partner in this is 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.560 a guy named Dirk Zif and a really neat model 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.120 what they did. Dirk is actually going to be listed 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.280 as a involved with the design, so it is a 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.600 Hans Wagner and Zif design. But they went around and 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.360 raised thirty million dollars. And what the way they set 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.520 this up is they have a long term lease with 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.679 the city of West Palm Beach. I think they lease 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.600 it for a dollar a year and obviously have a 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.200 revenue share back to the city. And they also have 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.880 effectively a nonprofit foundation where all this money sits in 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.600 to maintain this golf course and continue operating it for 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.560 years to come. So the park is you know, it'd 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.800 be really you know, remiss not to mention it's on 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:01.120 a beautiful site. It is a wonderful piece property for golf. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.680 It was completely redone and it is brand new, effectively 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.120 a brand new golf course on this great site in 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.120 a city center. And I think, you know, from my perspective, 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.800 it is one of the very best golf courses in 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.079 Florida full stop. I think that if you are going 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.520 to compare it to golf courses in South Florida, I 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.320 think the course that you're going to compare this to 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:29.000 most is Seminole. It is in really elite company in 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.120 terms of this golf course, and you know, it's a 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.080 credit to all involved, and it really shows I think 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.440 this is going to be a landmark mark golf course 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.080 in the next era of municipal and public golf. It 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.440 shows that and hopefully we'll prove over time that public 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.280 golf architecture doesn't have to be boring, that you can 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.240 hire great architects to do public projects. You don't have 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.000 to just hire, you know, the guy that did the 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.280 course down the street. This is this is really an 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.160 exciting thing. I think the thing that I personally am 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.000 most impressed by is that they didn't take any shortcuts. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.360 They didn't water anything down. This is an experience that 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.480 you would expect to have at a private club. From 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:15.960 a golf course perspective, it is a masterful design. Is 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.279 super fun to play from what I gather talking to 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.000 Seth and Dirk about the project. They kind of put 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.520 together a group and they pulled everybody. You know, most 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.680 people that invested in this are really into golf. They're 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.720 super golf nuts. Dirk and Seth certainly are. They played 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.440 a lot of the great golf courses and they wanted 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.320 this place to be fun and accessible. So they pulled 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.599 everybody involved on what fund meant, what fun golf meant, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.679 and tried to, you know, put that into the design 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.359 and the effort around the golf course and the culture. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.480 So it's going to be a welcoming place. It is 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.320 going to be relatively affordable. I think the greens feeds 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.919 run from sixty dollars for West Palm Beach residents to 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.599 about one hundred and twenty for Florida residents, and then 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.640 you know, if you're coming from out of town, you'll 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.120 get popped. But I think that's the right model. Let 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.680 locals come play at affordable rates and it also has 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:18.039 a short course, a lighted driving range, and a big 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.280 putting green, a place that is going to be ideal 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:25.200 for people to go learn the game. Along with the 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:32.360 golf course, there's a comprehensive programming, educational programs, really different 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.599 services to get kids interested in the game of golf. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.800 So what do you think about projects? What courses you 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.640 should be most excited to go see? This is one 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.640 of them. I think there's obviously a lot of resort 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.359 development and a lot of private golf development that's going 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.400 to get a lot of headlines in the next few years. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.760 But I can't think of any projects that are more 0:05:55.800 --> 0:06:00.520 important in golf than the ones that are accessible, open 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.560 and close to people. And that's why I'm really excited 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.560 about this course and what it will do hopefully for 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.839 golf in the future. I think that this is obviously 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:18.000 a project that was undertaken by people with means as 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:23.040 well as people with connections. But it's not unrealistic for 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.040 most cities to have setups like this and be able 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.080 to invest in golf in a way that they can 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.720 improve their golf course through their community. And and this 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.800 is going to be a real credit to the community, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.440 a real landmark for the community, and I can't say 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.520 enough about it. I'm thrilled that I got down to 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.799 see it. I didn't. I was happy I could squeeze 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.000 it in. I you know, I played this golf course 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.479 the day after Augusta National. I was really excited to 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.480 play Augusta And you know, that was obviously a surprise 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.840 on my trip, as if for anybody that listened to 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:05.560 the last podcast. But you know, I was almost equally 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.280 as excited to go see what they've been cooking up 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.840 at the park. I've seen a lot of Gill and 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.720 Jim's work over the years. I've seen most of their 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.960 American catalog of designs, and honestly, I would put this 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.960 up there near the top of their work. So really, uh, 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.240 really an awesome golf course. We're going to have more 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.520 stuff to come on it. We will, uh, we'll have 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.200 some visuals. We'll probably put together a video on the 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.280 golf course on the YouTube page. I'm in the process 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.920 of writing an article, and we'll have some photography and 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.840 social content around it. So check that out. But most 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.760 most importantly, book a trip down to the park. UH, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.960 play the play that golf course. I would uh, I'd 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.920 be hard pressed to find a place that isn't more 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.760 you know, want to get back out and play more 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.960 golf at It's it's one of those places you're gonna 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.480 want to lap. And you know what a great place 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.960 to go visit, especially in the cold months of the winter. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.760 It is a place that you can bring your entire family. 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.360 So Westbalm Beach now has an amazing golf course that 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.360 everybody can play that's better than the vast majority of 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.280 the private courses in town. So without further ado, here's 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:26.400 Jim Wagon all right, So tell me about the when 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.760 you first learned about the park and had you played 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.040 the previous course, the West Palm Beach MUNI no. 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.400 No, I never actually played the original version. I had 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.800 been down there several years ago when we first started 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.280 looking at moving down here. My brother owned a place 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.920 and his son played a lot of golf, but he 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.160 did not, so I actually set him up and him 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:50.600 and I went, you know, just to get him at 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:56.520 a deuced down to the park and took lessons with 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:58.760 and I forget what her name is now, but she 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:03.400 was an ex touring that had LPGA pro that had 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.719 taken up residents or given lessons and so I had 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.640 been exposed to it, but just not on the golf 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:10.360 course itself. 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.760 What were your first impressions when when you guys started 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.520 to plan out the park and what it is today 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:20.600 of the site, I mean, the. 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:22.960 Site is unbelievable when you think about it, right, I 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.800 mean when you compare everything to Florida. I mean we 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.360 all know Florida golf right for the most part, with 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.120 the exception of a very few, you know, courses, it's 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.200 just it's fairly flat. There's not a lot of movement 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:36.560 to it. But when you get to the park, I 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.200 mean that's the first striking element of the property, is 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:45.240 the amount of elevation change and the way the property rolls. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.160 No water on the property, right, because I think it 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.280 was at one point, you know, from at least kind 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.520 of the rumors that we heard is you know, before 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.119 it was a golf course. That's you know, during hurricanes, 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.160 that's where a lot of the farmers and ranchers in 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.880 the area took the their cattle and their animals because 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.839 it was high and dry. And I believe it probably 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.360 sits on the same sand dune. It probably forms seminal, right, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.760 because it's a crow flies I don't believe it's not 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.920 far from Seminal proper, but it's the same type of material, right, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.360 It's kind of a beach, you know, a beach type 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.200 sand rounded sands that sit up on a on a 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.400 little bit of a bluff. So it's it's nothing like 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.560 you're used to seeing in the Florida mark with maybe 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:27.600 the exception of Seminal. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.040 How uh nice? 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:30.800 Was it? Was it? 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.280 I mean I have to wonder was it refreshing to 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.240 build a golf course that's like for the people? I think? 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.920 You know, obviously in America a lot of the new 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:46.040 builds are are either high end resorts or you know, 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.000 private golf courses. Was it was there something exciting or 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.720 or different about building a golf course that's really you know, 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.240 municipal and locally focused in the place that you live. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:00.920 Well, I mean yeah, I mean for me, it's the 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.760 excitement and the stuff because I think that all of 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.679 our golf courses have, you know, the same thought process. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.760 We don't necessarily change it for public versus you know, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.920 private or resorts. I mean sure we do, you know, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.720 add some different elements to different things on a level 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.000 of who we think the client's going to be from 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.720 a design standpoint, but when you look at it from 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.280 the excitement of it to me, I mean, it kind 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.520 of means the world to me because that's what I 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.320 grew up on, right growing up in Philadelphia. You know, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.199 I wasn't exposed to the private club, you know, lifestyle, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.120 so it was public GoF and fortunately it was it 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.920 was really good public goth right with Cobbs Creek. You know, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.360 I lived what fifteen minutes from Cobbs Creek, so played 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.880 a lot of golf on Cops Creek, which obviously has 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.120 the charm and background and design from Hugh Wilson right 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.800 at Marion. And then another golf course which is only 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.600 about maybe five minutes from Marian called Paxon Hollow, which 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.439 had you know, a huge and a lot of interesting 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.160 and unique off course architecture elements is part of it. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.080 And uh, you know, we're talking to Bill Kittleman, who 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.600 does a lot of work with us and a mentor 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.560 of Gill and I and was the pro marian for 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.319 you know, every how many years, thirty thirty five years. Uh, 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.520 you know, he recalls that Joe Valentine had spent some 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.800 time over at Paxon Hollow, kind of helping them, you know, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.000 build bunkers and things of that nature. And you can 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.920 kind of see that in the quality and the art 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.800 behind the architecture there. So you know, I was fortunate 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:30.440 to be able to you know, grow up in that 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.840 environment of great architecture. So bringing something like this to 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.880 you know, to Palm Beach and for all the kids 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.720 and everybody who you know doesn't have the ability to 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.400 play you know, uh, you know, high end public goth 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.040 or private golf. I mean, I think to me is 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.360 really the essence of the game and and and the 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.959 start for everybody. I mean, it's awesome. It's awesome to 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.600 be able to do something like that, whether it's you know, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.839 at the park or eventually we get to much McCall 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.280 it the Cops Creek or even you know in DC 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.960 there's stuff and we're doing with the National Links Trust. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.160 So it's all great stuff and very important. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.920 I think you brought up seminoles as you know, similar land. 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.520 Do you have any other comparisons to two courses that 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.520 you've seen that it reminds you of maybe, I mean. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.959 Yeah, there's a lot. I mean in Florida, I think 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.200 Seminol is probably the only one. I mean, maybe some 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.240 of the stuff that you know you see on the courses, 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.840 stream songs just because of the elevation change there and 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.800 the whole sand aspect to it. But you can go 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.720 around the world, you know, and if you look and 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.319 you go to you know, some of the stuff in Australia, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.520 you know, which was kind of some of our conversations, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.000 you've got elements because there is some flatness to the 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.800 property even though there's elevation change to it, right, So 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.280 there's things on the couple of the opening halls that 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.040 maybe feel more like a Kingston Heath which is kind 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.760 of flatish, you know, exposed sand. You know, you kind 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.920 of get that that sand belt environment. And then there's 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.720 aspects of it, you know, when you get to some 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.440 of the elevation change hall, like the part three number eleven, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.479 that fels a little bit more like say Royal Melbourne. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.560 So there's definitely elements of it. So it's unique in 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.680 that regard because it's Florida Golf elevation change, but you know, 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.360 it does have this feeling of, say like an Australian 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:13.680 sand milt environment. 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.800 When you went about the design process, you said, obviously 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.600 you don't you guys have kind of the same ethos, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:24.160 the same design mindset for every type of golf course, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.400 but you know, you you kind of tweak it for 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.960 unique sit you for each situation with the with the park, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:37.560 obviously it's a you know, basically thirty investors all you know, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.680 involved with it. How was that design process and environment 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.760 different than say, you know, where you're building for a 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:46.440 single owner. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.040 I think from the single on a standpoint, and we've 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.200 been very fortunate with a lot of the single owners 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.440 that we've worked with. And you know, Michael, the HOOPI 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.840 was great, Right, It's just you know, kind of turn 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.840 us loose and let us do what that we do 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.720 and create something fun and interesting. Right. That obviously was 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:05.000 a little bit different because it was more of the 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.720 match play components. So that was kind of more of 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.960 our you know, philosophy and thought process and kind of 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.760 the vernacular that we were using when we did work 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.720 at a Hoopie. Whereas when we got to the park, 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.880 we're starting to look at and think about some other stuff, right, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.760 is that sure? You know, we wanted to be fun, 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.320 that's always something that we use. We wanted to be challenging, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.600 we wanted to be thought provoking. Right, They're all the 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.360 kind of the vernacular of the words we were using. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.840 And then we kind of adopted one more, you know, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.200 element to that, and that was bold. Right. We talked 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.320 a lot early on during the planning phases, Jill and 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.560 I and Dirk Ziff and you know, some of the 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.640 others that were involved, about the golf course being bold, 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.680 you know, and there's a lot of definitions of bold. 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.360 Bold doesn't need to be like, you know, kind of 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.520 a Yale bold, you know, where you've got a lot 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.600 of bold features. But bold can also mean taking chances, 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.200 you know, do things different. And you know, a small 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.240 green can be bold, you know. So there's stuff like 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.800 that that kind of changed our thought process. And also 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.320 we wanted to use the park as a way to 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.040 kind of showcase what good architecture is all about. Right, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.400 And I actually think, you know, maybe I saw an 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.080 email or you know, some stuff that maybe you had said, Andy, 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.280 and believe it or not, you know, it was actually 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.040 kind of spot on, is that, you know? Why why 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.120 can't you know? Public? Of of course, architecture and public oth 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.600 be and I guess I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.160 be you know, a showcase for what golf course architecture 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.680 can be. Right, it seems like a lot of public 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.120 goth is it starts out in a wad or down version, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.440 you know, to get people interested in the game and 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.240 the move rounds through and for sake of ease of 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.080 maintenance and all the other stuff that comes in. But 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.760 why can't architecture that people are seeing for the first time, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.480 or public architecture, that's call it. Why can't public architecture, 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.119 you know, match that that beauty of private club architecture 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.320 in the Golden Age architecture and all of this stuff 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.800 that you know, all of us that really love and 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.760 enjoy golf and golf course architecture like to see in golf, 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.040 and that kind of you know, spearheaded us to be 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.080 a little bit think, a little bit outside the box. 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:17.280 Yeah, that was my kind of takeaway from it. I mean, 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.800 on this podcast people have heard me talk about this 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.080 for years, but you know, where it doesn't make any 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.240 sense that the people people's entrance to the game of golf, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.920 which happens at public and municipal golf courses, is the 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.240 least interesting version of golf there is, Like, if you 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.960 thought about it, with any food, any food variety, any 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.560 you know, really like any anything. Like if I said, 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.000 you know, I always use the coffee reference. Like if 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.480 I said to you and you say you didn't drink coffee, 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.000 and I said, hey, listen, I think you should drink coffee. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.359 And I took you to like a gas station at 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.280 two in the morning and poured you a cup of 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.200 coffee and said, here you go. This is great. You're 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.280 going to love this. You'd be like, this is this 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.679 is awful. You know you and that's what we do 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.199 with golf. And I think you know the thing that 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.639 you hit on that I was super impressed by it. 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:15.280 I was curious. Is like to me, from what I've seen, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.320 I haven't seen all the courses you guys have built. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.480 I feel like I've seen a fair amount. The greens 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.879 were reminded me a lot of the greens that you 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.760 built at a hoopie match club where you where you 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.400 and Gil have talked about how when you're when it's 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:35.360 not a pencil in scorecard situation, you could felt more 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.679 liberated to build bold features. To me, the greens at 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.480 the park like you go to the first green and 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.359 you see this, you know, eight foot false front and 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.359 or maybe not eight probably six foot falls front and 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.640 you say, wow, like I did not expect to see this, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.119 like you know, right off the bat, it's it. It 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.200 has you know, you use the word bold, but there 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.000 to me like very adventurous greens from from start to finish, 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.879 and oftentimes would say you can't have that at a 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.159 public course. Is is there anything with a hoopie and 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.440 the praise that a hoopie's gotten over the years that's 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.719 allowed you guys to feel more liberated on the greens 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:11.840 at future builds. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.760 I mean, I don't. I don't think so. I mean 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:16.040 it could have a little bit in me. It was 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:17.520 kind of funny because when I was thinking of what 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.639 type of question you were going to ask me, uh, 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:22.679 you know, it kind of got towards you know, the 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.840 bold question and kind of what you just said, and 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.119 the first the first green was kind of in my 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.240 mind right. And it's scary that you're thinking like I 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.639 am or I'm thinking like you are, but it you know, 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.399 I was thinking about that and you're right like that 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.359 that is part of it, whether it ties into hoopie 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.880 or not, you know, I mean it could in some 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.160 in some regards but I think if it ties into 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.399 hoopy at least from my standpoint on kind of the 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.800 greens that that I worked on is that, you know, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.080 I like to think more about the recovery shot, right, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.120 and when you look at a hoopie, and if you're 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.680 going to kind of compare that fall process to the park, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.960 then it would be the same because the match play. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.639 The thought process at least that I had is that, Okay, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.240 what are the recovery shots, like, you know, the recovery 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.880 shot or the guy who's getting a shot and he's 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.280 playing you know, match play and he's not on the green, Like, 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:15.120 what's the interest of that shot? How does he get 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.560 the ball closed? How does it then put pressure on 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.880 his playing opponent who may have a fifteen footer for birdie, 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.480 but he's not in the best part of the of 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.600 the of the green. So that was kind of the 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.679 thought process of the hoopie. Now it's kind of the 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.520 same thought process at the park because you're thinking a 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.679 lot about the average player, the higher handicapper, you know, 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.720 the people who are first out at and it's the 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.919 first you know, you know, experience on either playing the 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.159 park or golf in general. They're not going to hit 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:44.560 a lot of greens. They're going to miss a lot 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.240 of greens. So what's their recovery, what's their shot, third shot? 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.800 What's the fourth shot into the greens? And what's the 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:52.840 interest of that Being able to give them a place 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.960 that they feel that they can play a ball off of, 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.399 or a feature that can play you know around or 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.280 need to play around, but just a really to get 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.560 them thinking about what that shot looks like. I think 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.119 if you put all that together, I think it lends 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.280 you to feel that you can be more creative, you 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.120 can do some different stuff because it's a different thought process. 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.960 It's not solely about the approach shot into the green, right, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.760 it's about the recovery of a mishit approach shot. And 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.960 then I think that leads to an element of fun 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.520 and a lot of stuff we've been hearing about the 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.399 park is exactly what you're bringing up. It's the greens. 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.280 It's the fun on the greens, it's the fun around 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.960 the greens, it's the green complexes. So I think that 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.080 would kind of be the only parallel between the two, 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:37.920 which is interesting and I'm glad you picked up on it. 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.080 Now for a quick word from our sponsor golf Genius. 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.480 Your club may use golf Genius Tournament Manager system for 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.399 your club events and tournaments. At the Frida Egg, we 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.320 use it for all of our events and it has 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.359 worked really well for us. It's awesome. It's made it 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:09.440 way easy to run golf events, registration, scoring, leaderboard results. 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.400 Golf Genius basically just handles it all and it makes 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.520 it easy for Will. I would like to say that 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.000 I have a ton of involvement with that, but I don't. 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.679 It mostly makes it really easy for Will, makes his 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.400 life a lot easier at our events. Golf Genius also 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.800 has a great product for the pro shop staff, golf 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:32.679 Genius Golf Shop. It is used to streamline special merchandise orders, 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:38.040 track stock orders, manage demo clubs that means no more shrinkage, 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:43.399 simplify staff scheduling, organized club repairs, and automated communication with 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:47.960 club members. It's a great productivity tool that saves time, money, 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.680 and hassles. But most importantly, it really improves member service, 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:54.640 which is a win win. Hundreds of clubs are using 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.959 the platform today and are fired up about the benefits. 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.800 If you're involved in the golf shop business, we recommend 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.879 you check out golf Genius. Just go to golf genius 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.280 dot com to learn more. Now back to Jim Wagner. 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.399 One question I was thinking about is, like, obviously, one 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:17.480 of the big rebuttals to building interesting architecture at a 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.560 like what we're talking about with greens, for example, at 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.840 a public golf course would be immediately people would say 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:25.600 pace of play. This is going to be a pace 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.560 of play nightmare. How do you alleviate the pace of 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.880 play potential issue by building into like, what are some 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.359 some features of the park that are going to help 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:38.520 move people around the golf course quickly? 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:40.879 Well, I mean think the pace of play, right, I mean, 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.440 that's that's an interesting conversation because you know, if you 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.320 look at public public goth and you talk about pace 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.479 of play regardless of how the golf course plays itself. 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:55.200 But let's talk about the use of carts and cart 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.720 paths and car pairs only on certain instances. Let's talk 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.280 about the beverage cut, and let's talk about the time 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.920 that people spend you know, you know, getting drinks and 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.400 doing all that stuff that are knocked off related, right, 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.240 I mean, that's probably going to add twenty minutes to 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.399 a round the golf right there, you know, because you're 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.119 stopping on the on the front nine and again on 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:18.560 the back nine, So you know, there's a pace of 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.639 play issue right there that starts with it. And I 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:23.320 think just from the way the park is going to 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:27.280 be a run, you know, with having a caddy program 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.480 and walking I think is mandatory before a certain time 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:33.200 in the morning. I think those elements are going to 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.919 help with the overall pace of play. But from a 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.480 play standpoint, it's just it's relying more on ground features 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.520 and contours as it is opposed to a lot of bunkering. 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:44.720 Right you know, you played the park. I mean even 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:48.200 look at number one and you said number one perfect example. Sure, 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:49.960 the left side of that green does have about a 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:52.959 five or six foot elevation change that could have been 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.399 fairway turf just as much it was as it was 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.760 green and still pretty much play the same way. The 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.080 rest of the green doesn't have as obviously as much 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.320 contour as that, But the front of that green is 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:06.120 wide open, you know what I mean. There's not bunkering 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:07.880 tight to the green. I think there's some bunkering off 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:09.760 to the right hand side, a little bit onto the 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:11.720 left hand side, which is pretty far out of play. 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.240 It's probably about one hundred feet maybe one hundred and 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.000 ten feet wide. The approach to that green, you know, 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.280 it's fairly significant. So things like that, and if you 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.480 make your way around the park probably you know, eighty 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:26.280 percent of the greens are that way. They have a 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.800 lot of interest in them, but they're very playable from 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.960 that standpoint. And on number one, since you're chatting about 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:34.960 you know, from a challenge from a better players standpoint, 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.080 they may try to get there into or if they 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:39.080 lay up, but you do still need to hit a 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.480 little bit of an exacting shot to get close to 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:44.080 be able to make birdie on that green. But it's 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:47.040 not penal for the average players, so they're still able 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:49.920 to make their way around the property. You know, relative 0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:52.320 ease as opposed to being in bunkers. Are relying a 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:55.200 lot on bunkers, and you know, people playing ping pong 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:56.919 and two to get out of the bunker then knocking 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:58.840 it over the green. You know, So I think that 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:01.160 helps significt with the pace of play. 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.040 Yeah, I think one of the other things about it, 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.639 and I I played this, I played in a for 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:10.680 like a thirty to forty mile our wind. I mean 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:14.480 it was common. It was uh, it was not nice. 0:26:14.840 --> 0:26:17.680 It was uh. And like when that wind got off 0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:19.280 my left toward at the end of the round, I 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:21.240 was getting tired. I had been you know, I gotten 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:24.199 in late the night before. I was getting tired. My 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:27.040 legs were gone. I started hitting these whitey fades. And 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:28.880 when the wind was coming off my left, I mean, 0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:31.520 the ball was going miles right. One of the things 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.000 I quickly picked up on is this very hard to 0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:35.919 lose a golf ball out there. I mean, like I 0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:39.200 think that, yeah, I can't. We used to. I used 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:41.200 to be before I started the Friday Egg. I used 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:44.800 to play you know, uh, all around Chicago. But one 0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:46.640 of the places we would play is this course called 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:48.800 Harbor Side. It was on the South side of Chicago, 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.119 and and you know, they had this this this rough 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:54.480 and I have a buddy that was you know, it 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:56.600 was a little bit wild off the tee and we 0:26:56.760 --> 0:27:00.080 I wouldn't play there anymore with him because like we 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:02.280 just spend all day looking for golf balls, and it 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:04.879 was you know, that was the time that we were spending, 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:07.199 you know, and that's why it would pile up to 0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:10.280 a five hour round is because everybody on the golf 0:27:10.280 --> 0:27:12.919 course is looking for golf balls, and that it seems 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:16.520 like it would be it's very challenging. I'm sure everybody 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:18.359 would be like, oh, you haven't seen me play, But 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:23.040 it is a place that it is almost difficult to 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:24.080 lose a golf ball. 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:28.200 Yes, yes, first two comments. First one, when you started 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.359 this question, you talked about your your wipey fae with 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.680 the wind coming off the left. The only reason why 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:35.600 it wasn't a whitey faide on the other holes is 0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:38.120 because the wind was coming off your right. The ball 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:42.560 out either way, it's still a wipey thing. The wind 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:45.240 just helped you in a favorable manner in that case. 0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:48.000 But no, you're right, you know. So that's a great point, 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:49.560 you know, is that it is hard to lose a 0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:53.479 golf ball there. Right, The play courters are extremely wide. 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:57.040 Even when you get into the exposed sandi aras out 0:27:57.119 --> 0:28:03.000 of play, there's enough vegetation to make the rough unpredictable. 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.040 But yet it's in more of an open habit form 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:08.600 where you can easily find your golf ball. You know, 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:11.159 I don't know. I've played there a handful times, and 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:12.960 I don't think I've ever lost the golf ball, and 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:15.320 I can hit some of those whitey fades as well. 0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:19.880 But that's another important component that was part of our discussion. Point. 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:21.639 I mean, a lot of things that had happened prior 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.800 on that property due to kind of the sugar rounded sands, 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.040 is that there was problems with windblow because there was 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:31.080 a lot of exposedand golf carts were getting stuck in 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:34.280 the exposed end. The sand was so white and blinding 0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:36.600 that people were actually losing balls in the sand because 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:39.080 everything bled together. So we took a lot of that 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:41.200 into consideration, and that's why you kind of see some 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:43.800 of that natively rough stuff. We've actually planned in a 0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.520 bunch more native so it holds the sand in place 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:48.160 for the most part. We're not going to have a 0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:50.280 lot of car traffic, so the carts are going to 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:53.360 be minimal, and then it also helps you find golf balls. 0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:55.360 But that was all part of it, and we did 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:57.760 and we removed and transplanted and moved a lot of 0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:01.080 the native material around the property and kind of condensed 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:03.280 in the areas that we're out of play. There's nothing 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.600 worse in Florida golf than losing your ball and you 0:29:05.600 --> 0:29:08.640 know those palmettos. Uh, you know, they're just they're they're 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.040 they're just it's horrible for the game of cough for 0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:12.200 you know. 0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:15.240 With the uh with the fairway lines. One thing I 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:18.400 was wondering about you talked about the kind of sandy areas. 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.640 I was out there obviously a day it was wind windy. 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:24.000 I saw sand moving in. Are you anticipating kind of 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:27.400 a I think, of course people would be most familiar 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:30.200 with would be like Pinehurst number two, where maybe those 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:33.360 fairway lines kind of move with the with the environment 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:34.240 over the years. 0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:36.320 Yeah, and that's what we're open for andy, right, and 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:37.840 that's why we did it. I mean, one, I think 0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:40.480 that helps some maintenance costs. And you're not hardlining it. 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.239 You know, it's just kind of a golf construction architecture term, 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:45.120 but you're not hardlighting the golf course that you see 0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:47.880 in the desert where you're setting up irrigation. You're adding 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:50.280 irrigation heads and you're throwing half heads to go ahead 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.280 and control the water and and have this this line 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:56.400 of fairway slash rough that stays consistent, you know, for 0:29:56.520 --> 0:29:59.240 the next twenty five thirty years. Whatever it is. You know, 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:02.840 we're set up so that whatever mother nature does, whether 0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:05.040 it's the windblow moving things around, that's going to help 0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:08.200 enhance the golf course. Whether it's you know, depending on 0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:10.280 the time of year, right where you get more rain, 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:13.040 you make it some more run in the in the 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:16.000 spriggs and the Bermuda grass and make it more runners 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:17.800 that creep out, and then that turns into a little 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:20.080 bit more of a rough area and you may get 0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.880 some areas that there's more die back. So yeah, we 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.040 hope it kind of moves back and forth. Pinehurst number 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:27.200 two or four is a good example. You know, there's 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:29.880 a lot of great examples in the warm season climates 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:32.880 of that happening. Stream Song is kind of the same way, right, 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:35.560 It's all the same thought processes. You know, we're focusing 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.480 more on the play areas, right, greens, teas, fairways of 0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:42.320 being great, great condition, great from a play standpoint, but 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.400 as you get offline, things become a little bit more unpredictable. 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.720 They're allowed to move and kind of you know, go 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.520 back and forth really basically depending on what mother nature does. 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:54.720 You know, any given year, any given month. 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.520 Is there a stretch of holes out there that you 0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:02.560 particularly think about or or you know a few single 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.880 holes scattered about. Is there you know a hole that 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:10.080 you love terms of you know what what was built 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.800 into the ground and maybe you know, maybe it's something 0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:15.720 that's really loud, so maybe something that's really quiet from 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:18.080 you know, the intricacy standpoint. 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:21.000 Well, you know, my case is always a little bit 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:23.000 of a story behind you know, some of the stuff 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:25.960 that we do. But to me, it's the watch McCall. 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:29.840 It's the fifteenth hole, you know, part five uphill right, 0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:31.680 It's it's not a long hole. So we had to 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:33.560 come up and kind of be creative on how we 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:36.080 were going to go ahead and do something around the 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:39.480 green that we weren't really you know, the premise wasn't bunkering, right, 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:41.560 we kind of we kind of did that. Eventually did 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:43.680 that on nine just so we could be a little 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.760 bit different. So nine has got a little bit more bunking. 0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:49.280 But on fifteen we're trying to come up with a concept. 0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:52.920 And you know, Jill and I were with with Dirk 0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.040 and we were looking at some uh, you know, some 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:58.760 photos and we saw a photo of the Jockey Club 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.720 right Brandness Areas and it was a picture and you 0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:03.600 know they used a lot of mounds in and around 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:07.160 the Jockey Club on creating their interest. So I was 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:08.800 looking at this picture and it kind of, you know, 0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:12.200 kind of stuck in my head and then went and 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:15.320 recreated or what I thought was recreating that picture that 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:17.840 I saw. And that's how that big mound ended up 0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.240 in front of the green, which is kind of really 0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:21.960 a cool feature, right if you're trying to go forward 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:24.600 into and there's a lot of interest in and around 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.320 behind it. So that was really the premise for the 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:29.360 green side and how tied into the ridge. And then 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.760 the average player probably on their third shot if they 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:33.360 missed the green, they can miss it right, but then 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:35.760 they're looking right up at the mouth of the green, 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:38.320 and then they had the support of that big mound 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.800 on the left, and you know, there's a lot of 0:32:40.840 --> 0:32:42.920 support for them as opposed to the guy who's going 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:45.120 forward into. You know, they got to contend with that. 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:48.080 The green's real narrow if you try to carry that knot, 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:50.600 and there's a little slot that you can play through, 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:52.840 you know, to help for the ball to be more 0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:54.840 receptive if you're hitting a longer iron into it. So 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:57.239 built the whole thing kind of had it set up 0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:59.360 and was kind of thinking about again and looking back, 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:01.320 and I brought it up up, you know, the whole 0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:04.880 you know, the concept of the jockey club, and I forgot. 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:06.680 I was talking to him like, oh, yeah, I've played 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.040 down I remember that golf hole. And then they started 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:12.560 walking through the golf hole and lo and behold, like 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:14.360 the picture I was looking at, which I thought from 0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:16.680 was from the fairway, was not actually from the fairway. 0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:18.880 It was from like the back left of the green. 0:33:19.280 --> 0:33:21.520 So the man in this case was not even like 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:23.320 in front of the green. It was off to the 0:33:23.320 --> 0:33:26.600 back of the green. So I had envisioned it, you know, 0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:29.640 probably my dyslexi is setting in envisioned it from a 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:32.320 totally different angle, and we ended up building you know, 0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:35.200 the fifteenth hole, which ends up I think being really 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:37.400 fun and interesting and kind of a cool way to 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:40.920 handle a short part five. But you know, it was 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:45.320 something that, you know, my inspiration was totally opposite of 0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:46.360 what was actually built. 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:51.240 So to be the fifteenth represents, like one of the 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:55.440 themes of the golf choruses is what you can do 0:33:56.240 --> 0:34:01.040 with just simple green orientation and angles. Yes, you know, 0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:03.600 I think everybody thinks about like you have to have 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:05.920 you know, obviously, like you have holes, you have a 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:08.320 lot of variety out there. There's a ton of different stuff. 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.560 You have a hole like nine where it's kind of 0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:12.759 on the flatter part of the land where you have 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.759 a ton of ton of bunkering that I love that hole. Also, 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:19.120 that's a super fun shot in there if you're going 0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:21.400 forward and two. But then you have a lot of 0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:25.400 greens that are dictated by you know, just simple angles 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:28.480 and and contouring. Can you talk a little bit about, 0:34:28.640 --> 0:34:30.960 you know, what you can do when you just when 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:34.960 you're just using angles to create strategy. 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:37.680 Yeah, I guess in this case we chatted about a 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:39.920 little bit earlier, is you know, really not using a 0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:42.440 lot of bunkering other than just a few cases, is 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:46.040 what the defining strategy is around each individual golf hole, Right, 0:34:46.880 --> 0:34:48.880 It's more along the lines of width. And if you 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:51.640 get the width and bunkering is not the key to everything, 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:55.080 then it comes down to when you're separating out the 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:58.280 better players and the higher handicappers. Right, the better players 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:00.360 need to learn how to play the golf course and 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:03.520 get themselves on the right part of the fairway where 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:06.480 they have the best angle into the green right, and 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:10.200 that's all over that golf course for the most point. 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:12.560 And number two has it well. One has it as well. Right, 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:14.239 if you're gonna play down well and you're playing your 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:16.480 second shot, you know you're gonna have to play it 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:19.359 down the right hand side of the green in order 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:21.640 to get the better role or the better angle into 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:23.440 the green. You miss it left and you've got to 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:26.400 come over that big bump. So angles were everywhere everywhere 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:29.439 on the property. It's on number two. Right. The way 0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:32.279 that green is long and narrow, you know, front left 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:34.600 to kind of back rightish, you know, So playing down 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:36.799 the left is a better angle. But the average player 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.000 it doesn't matter, right, the average player, they keep the ball, 0:35:40.000 --> 0:35:42.239 They find the ball, they keep it in play, even 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:44.160 no matter where they hit into the proach. Sure, the 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:48.680 angle the green is tougher, but they can play away 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:51.080 from you know, trying to be say on number two, 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.160 trying to get there in two. If they don't hit 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:55.759 a good drive, they can play up to the left 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:57.759 and be forty you are sure to the green and 0:35:57.800 --> 0:35:59.600 then they'll be looking right down the whole length of 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:01.799 the green, you know what I mean. So there's a 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:03.759 lot of things like that out there, but angles do 0:36:03.880 --> 0:36:07.000 help for sure. I mean it's all over in golf, right, 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:09.320 you know, all the great old architecture. You know, it's 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:11.799 all about angles and fun. But more so I think 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.000 in trying to create that difference for you know, public gofference, 0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:17.480 trying to open things up. I think you look at 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:20.200 Augusta too. Augusta's abad angles, right, you were just there. 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:22.520 You know, there's a lot of angles into those greens, 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:25.320 and not so much maybe the angle, but the angle 0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:27.040 of the shot shape that you hit in. For the 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:29.840 better players, right, you know, you have to shape shots 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:32.359 and I think that's probably the case at the park 0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:34.319 as well, Right, you have to shape shots of a 0:36:34.320 --> 0:36:37.520 certain angle to go ahead, to be more receptive into 0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:38.759 the greens. Yeah. 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.920 I think one of the things too, with with what 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:44.719 you guys did there is like having like a lot 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:51.040 of long, narrow greens yep, set on different angles. What 0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:54.239 it does I mean, like, good, the average player is 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:57.239 probably gonna hit what six greens around. 0:36:57.400 --> 0:36:58.640 Yeah, I probably average five. 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:03.399 So it's like okay there, It's not like you could 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:06.600 design you could build huge greens and they probably might 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:09.880 hit two more. You know, it's not making like a 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:13.680 considerable difference, right, But when you set you know, so 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:16.000 they're gonna be chipping most of the time, right, And 0:37:16.880 --> 0:37:20.080 for the better player, All of a sudden, when you 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:23.239 create those like good players misspin high right, and when 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.680 you have narrow greens set on hard angles, it becomes 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:29.400 very hard to miss pin high right. Like then you 0:37:29.440 --> 0:37:33.080 start to catch those contours. Like I think about the fifteenth. 0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:37.400 The fifteenth was like extremely disorienting. My range finder was 0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:41.640 ran out of battery, so I I was I was 0:37:41.680 --> 0:37:44.279 too lazy to go look at a sprinkler head. I 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:46.239 just kind of was eyeballing everything, and it was so 0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:48.480 windy that it was like kind of an eyeball day, 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:51.440 you know, where you're just feeling shots and I just 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.560 I just shipped it way over the green, like you know, 0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:56.760 I thought it was way further obviously with the mound 0:37:56.800 --> 0:38:00.040 obscuring it. But like that's the thing I think that 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:02.520 kind of makes you want to keep going back there 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.160 is like there's a lot of shots out there that 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:08.799 are disorienting, and your eye leads you to believe one 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:12.720 thing then that's different than from what is actually happening. 0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:16.120 Well, you're right, I mean to take much McCall five. 0:38:16.160 --> 0:38:19.000 Take the Beer Rich for example, right, and Gil did 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:21.160 a great job on that because it's a lot of 0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:23.440 different shots that you need to hit in there. If 0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:25.840 that pin isn't in the front or in the middle swale, 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:30.040 you're not flying into the pin right that there says 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:32.600 it's probably like what two fifteen or something to the 0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:36.080 middle of that green. But that's not the shot. You know. 0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:37.640 It's fine because at the front of the green is 0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:39.640 wide open. The average player, they can hit a hybrid 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:41.359 or a three wood or whatever they want out there. 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:43.160 It's gonna end up somewhere in tight mo and they're 0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:46.280 gonna have an interesting, you know, fun you know, approach, 0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:48.560 recovery shot, whatever're going to call it into into that 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.759 pin location. But the better player who's finally learned how 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:53.600 to play, you're not going to know this right away, 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:55.719 is probably not trying to fly the ball to the pin. 0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:59.160 You're probably knocking the ball twenty twenty five yards short, 0:38:59.280 --> 0:39:01.359 right in to the bump that kind of comes off 0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:03.680 the approach and ties into the right side of the green. 0:39:03.719 --> 0:39:05.560 If you can hit a shot into there with a 0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:07.520 little right to left action and take a little bit 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:09.400 of the heat off of it. You're most likely going 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:11.080 to come to rest you in the front or down 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:13.239 into the middle of that's whale, and it's going to 0:39:13.280 --> 0:39:16.600 be very rewarding for you. But it's gonna take a while. 0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:19.680 So it's out there and it does help, and I 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:21.399 mean that's kind of the beauty of it, I think. 0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.920 Yeah, one of the unique aspects of this was you've 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:27.880 mentioned him a couple of times. Dirk Zeff, who was 0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:30.520 a you know, part of your part of the investment 0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:35.080 group of the golf course, but also longtime golf architecture nut, 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:37.680 who I believe you guys have kind of worked with 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:42.080 at a few other projects before. Talk about his involvement 0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:43.560 with the with the project. 0:39:43.960 --> 0:39:47.400 Yeah, sure, Yeah, So Dirk was one of the initial founders, 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.160 one part of the foundation, you know, and and him 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:53.319 and along with Dan Stanton and Sethwell and a couple 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:56.279 of the other guys you know, obviously did a great 0:39:56.360 --> 0:40:00.320 job in raising the money. And Dirk's a huge architecture buff. 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:02.080 You know, we've known Dirk for a while. I think 0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:05.840 Gil first met anyway where as a member you know, 0:40:05.960 --> 0:40:08.319 years back, and we were working there and they kind 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:12.080 of struck up a relationship, friendship relationship, but also an 0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:17.960 architectural relationship. Right. Dirk's extremely thoughtful, very knowledgeable, especially in 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:21.520 the golf course architecture. And he's also a member of 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:23.319 at the Vineyard Club. So when we did the work 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:25.960 up at the Vineyard Club and kind of moved stuff around, 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:29.359 you know, was he was out there with us, and 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.200 you know, again from another set of eyes and just 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.480 his knowledge and golf course architecture to be able to 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.160 see things and understand I mean, I think it was great. 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:40.880 It's always good to collaborate with folks, right and just 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:43.320 to get their their view and their opinion on stuff, 0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:46.160 especially when they've they've got a good understanding of what 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:50.080 makes fun interesting architecture. And that's what Dirk does and 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:52.440 that's what he helped us do at the Vineyard Club. 0:40:52.840 --> 0:40:55.080 And then you know, fast forward just you know, playing 0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:57.520 some golf with him and getting to know him as well, 0:40:57.560 --> 0:40:59.960 and then when this came up, you know, it was great, 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:02.959 and then his involvement was awesome. And again he's played 0:41:02.960 --> 0:41:04.600 a lot of golf at a lot of great clubs 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:07.960 around the world, so helping you know, work you know 0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:09.600 through the routing, and he had a lot of great 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:11.960 routing ideas and then you know a lot of the 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:13.840 discussions and to me that that was kind of the 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.239 best part about working with him, is just being able 0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:19.239 to have those discussions, right, kicking ideas off of other 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:23.279 folks about what makes great, fun, interesting architecture because it 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:25.520 has to become thought provoking, right. I mean, we can 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:27.319 all get set in our ways and what we do 0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:29.400 and how we look at stuff, and you know, to 0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:31.880 be able to have you know, other folks and you know, 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:33.840 it's not just circu it's also all of our caveman 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:35.520 guys that work with us, and we're all, you know, 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:39.120 really strong architecturally, but just being able to have that 0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:41.840 network of folks that you can talk about and what 0:41:42.000 --> 0:41:45.520 makes cool architecture and another set of eyes sometimes, you know, 0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:48.040 in life and just with what we all have going on. 0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:51.520 You get really busy, right, and you're working on other 0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:53.600 projects and you're working there, and sometimes you go out 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:55.719 there and you know, you've got interviews with you know, 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:58.360 the Friday Friday guys, you know, and it's you know, 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:01.320 now you're carving out some time, which is all great stuff, 0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:03.640 but you know, you can miss stuff. So I think 0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:07.040 you know, Dirk's knowledge and you know, and his enthusiasm 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:11.080 for architecture and his thoughtfulness and uh was was was 0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:12.920 great for us. It was great for me personally, and 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:14.239 I know I can't speak for Gil, but it was 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:15.520 great for me. And I think it was great for 0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:19.560 the project to have those conversations. You know, he was 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.359 one of the first ones we started talking to about boldness, right, 0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:25.359 and what does bold mean? Uh? And I remember we were, 0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:27.000 you know, we were playing golf and him and I 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:29.600 had that discussion and it was great. You know, mounds 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:32.160 like the mounds around eight Green and Augusta are bold. 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:35.080 Not only are the mounds somewhat bold, but the concept 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:38.799 is bold. Right. The Jockey Club mounds are bold, right, 0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:42.359 which obviously would tie into Mackenzie, but it's all part 0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:45.320 of it, right, And to have folks like that his involvement, 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:47.520 I think, you know, helped us make you know, the 0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:48.680 park a much better place. 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:53.240 I imagine it seems like to be you know, most 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:58.680 of the foundation members are are just at their core 0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:04.399 golf nuts, and that probably allowed this project to have 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:07.439 a little bit more of what you're calling boldness, where 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:11.000 if you have a bunch of people that love golf. 0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:13.240 A lot of people that travel to play the greatest 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:15.560 golf courses in the world, they're going to be a 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:20.799 lot more open to ideas like the mounding of the fifteenth. 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.400 Sure, exactly. Yeah, you have to have folks have to 0:43:22.440 --> 0:43:25.759 have a little bit of an architectural IQ. We'll call 0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:30.120 it right on what makes fun interesting golf. You know, 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:33.200 we've had in the past, we've had clients that, you know, 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:36.200 maybe don't understand as much about that. There's members of 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:38.840 clubs that we've gone in and restored and we built 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:43.840 that don't have as much architectural IQ. Or I shouldn't 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:45.439 say that. Maybe it's just the fact of what they're 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:49.160 used to playing and what their projects or their clubs 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:52.080 used to be, right. And Bill Killman says it all 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:54.640 the time. He's like, people want change, but they don't 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:57.640 want anything different, right, And how do you give them 0:43:57.680 --> 0:43:59.919 that in the golf course? They want to change their current. 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:02.040 Of course, you make the changes in there, and then 0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:04.000 they don't like it because it's different than what they're 0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:08.440 used to and that kind of you know, makes people crazy. Uh. 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.040 And the fact that we were able to blow this 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:13.120 up and work with people that had the architectural IQ 0:44:13.280 --> 0:44:16.000 with a willingness to be different right and create something 0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:18.399 fun And what did that mean and take the time 0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:21.680 to understand and research it. I think I think is important. 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:25.320 I mean, I think, you know, again, we're fortunate, uh, 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:27.239 you know, and who we've worked with early on in 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:28.600 our career. You know, we had a guy who thought 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:31.520 fun architecture was planning a lot of trees out on 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:32.960 the property so we had a place to go to 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:36.520 the bathroom. You know. So you get a lot of 0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:39.040 weird stuff like that. You know, you get a lot 0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:41.040 of guys that are more worried about the cost of 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.560 stuff or or what other people are doing right. And 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:47.080 and this becomes a big theme to become big theme 0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:50.120 in our past couple of projects, whether it's in a 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:52.840 whoopie with with Michael, or it was out at Lader 0:44:52.960 --> 0:44:55.319 or with Irving, or it was all the guys at 0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:59.600 the park and the foundation just really is you know, 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:04.640 willingness to look at things differently, right, to do things differently. 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:07.239 It doesn't have to be about the marketplace. I mean 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:09.680 some of the projects you know we heard of other 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:13.239 people involved the outside of ownership was well, the marketplace 0:45:13.320 --> 0:45:16.719 doesn't want that the marketplace place doesn't want this in 0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:20.480 you know, Palm Springs, California. Well, you know what, you know, 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:24.239 maybe that marketplace is old and tired, right, maybe we 0:45:24.280 --> 0:45:26.680 need to do something different and look at it differently. 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:29.800 And those three projects right there and really the park, 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:32.800 you know, we're willing to do that, and that becomes 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:36.239 extremely important in the success of the project because then 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:39.160 our thought process out on the job when we're designing 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:42.080 and making field changes in building is something totally different, 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:44.600 and I think that's important to be able to create 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:46.200 the interest that we did at the park. 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:51.120 Yeah, I think thinking outside the box is Obviously you're 0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:53.600 in an art form. If everybody's doing the same thing, 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:58.240 it gets pretty boring. And being able to bring especially 0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.479 this is a perfect example, bring a completely different type 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:04.960 of public golf course to the market than what exists there. 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:08.200 Having lived in the area, I can assure you there's 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:12.319 nothing like this golf course. Most have ponds all over 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:15.480 the place. You're gonna lose you know, I made a 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:17.520 joke with somebody. I was like, you know, I don't 0:46:17.520 --> 0:46:19.239 lose a lot of golf balls, but when I'm in 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:21.600 South Florida, I lose a lot of golf balls no 0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:24.520 matter where I'm playing, you know, the combination of wind 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:25.279 and water. 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:28.160 Yeah, quite frankly. And you may you may lose more 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:31.920 from a dollar I standpoint, more money and golf balls 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.879 and you paid for a green speed, Yeah you should. 0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:36.720 You should do that. Do a little segment of different 0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:39.520 golf courses and everybody's hometown where it costs more money 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:42.920 and golf balls, even even Kirklands from Wetchman call you 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:45.320 can lose two doan Kirklands. What's that thirty five dollars? 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:48.040 I mean that's some green fees for at some places. 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:51.200 Yeah, exactly. So it's a completely new golf course to 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:54.640 be like the park, and and we'll see. I think 0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:57.799 it's set up to age extremely well. But you know, 0:46:57.880 --> 0:47:00.279 the park reminds me of going to like a dream 0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:03.560 song more so than playing golf at a municipal golf 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:06.280 course in a city. And I think that's the special 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:08.840 thing about it is that you're that you know, people 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:10.759 that go visit there are going to be treated to 0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:13.600 a different type of public golf experience than they've ever 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:19.360 had before. And that's the it's really really exciting. Congratulations 0:47:19.440 --> 0:47:22.440 on on the great job, and I'm looking forward to 0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:24.920 seeing more of your guys work down the down the 0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:25.359 road here. 0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:28.799 All right, great, no, all good, nice chatting and when 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:30.680 you can finally get out of California and make your 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:33.360 way back down here, you know, well, we'll show you 0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:34.000 some more stuff. 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:47.319 Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast. 0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:53.400 Today's episode was edited by Matt Ruce's Thank you, Matt, Yeah, 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:57.120 thanks Jim for coming on. We will be back next week. 0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:59.799 This is a one episode week. I think Garrett might 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:02.399 equing out, but we had some you know, Garrett had 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:04.640 some travel, I had some travel. I've had a lot 0:48:04.640 --> 0:48:08.120 of travel lately, and we just needed a little bit 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:10.440 of a week to regroup and we'll be back on 0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:15.600 the two episode week schedule starting next week. In the meantime, 0:48:15.760 --> 0:48:18.160 if you're interested in more golf course content from us, 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:22.239 we're humming in Club TFP. I just finished a write 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:25.920 up for Chicago Golf Club. That's the latest course review. 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:30.359 Last week was a hoopy match. Club next week is Belvidere. 0:48:31.200 --> 0:48:34.120 On top of that, we've got We did a Club 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:37.480 tf hangout this week, which is basically like an hour 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:41.719 long podcast. We talked about the new Dream Golf project 0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:45.239 in Colorado. You know the and what we expected from 0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:50.800 Jimmy Craig there and much more so. Discounts, merchandise, early 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:54.960 access to events, all sorts of stuff. Visit theffride egg 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.040 dot com slash membership if you want to learn more. 0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:00.520 It's one hundred and twenty dollars for the entire you're here, 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:03.560 and that gets you a ton of stuff. So thank 0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:05.760 you guys for listening to another episode of the Friday. 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:08.600 We will be back next week and thank you to 0:49:08.680 --> 0:49:09.480 Jim for joining