WEBVTT - The Paul Johnson Aftershow 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.320 Welcome to Maren Took's Money the After Show. This is 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.920 a show where we comment on and digest the conversation 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:13.640 that you hear in our regular podcast. 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:15.080 I'm Maren Sunset Web. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.759 This week, John Steppick, Senior, a border at Bloomberg and 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.200 author of the Daily Money distilled newsletter that is a 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.360 must read, by the way, joins me to discuss the 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.360 conversation we had with Paul Johnson, director at the Institute 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.280 of Fiscal Studies and author of Follow the Money. How 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.239 much does Britain cost? The answer of course being a 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.600 lot too much or not quite enough, depending on that 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.519 where you've said on the political spectrum, John, that was 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.360 a fun conversation, wasn't it? And may I say how 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.360 wonderful it was to have you in the conversation the 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:43.080 whole way through. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.880 Very helpful. Meant I had to do significantly less work. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:46.600 Thanks very much. 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:48.880 That's very Katy. You say it was wonderful to be there, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:49.760 Thank you for having me. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.120 You missed the bit where I said I only liked 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:54.880 having you excited to do let's work. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:02.080 You're a great compliment acceptor exactly Now, Listen, what. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.160 We learned from Paul was pretty straightforward. It was the 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.920 UK is incredibly expensive. It's getting more, much more expensive. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:10.920 You're going to be a big pile of more taxes. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.920 We could sort it out, I'm paraphrasing here. We could 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:15.680 sort it out by growing, but we don't seem to 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.440 be very good at growing anymore. Oh dear, Is that 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.160 a reasonable summary of what we talked about? 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.000 Yeah, I mean I think it. Poll's great and he's 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.840 full of data and fully really interesting points, but he's 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:35.320 at a pressing bloke. Yeah, it's basically just you're going 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.800 to have to pay a lot more tax forever, and 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.399 your public services are just going to get essentially what. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.039 Well, I mean, it makes sense. You know, we've lost 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:45.720 our peace dividend. And one of the points that he 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.040 made that I think is particularly worth focusing on for 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.840 everybody is that one of the ways in which we've 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.320 managed to up a welfare spending to the extent we have, 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.320 and to spend as much more on the NHS, for example, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.920 as we have is because of the feast dividend. Because 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.640 we've been seeing our defense spending fall and fall and 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.280 fall and fall down to a couple of percentage points. 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.360 So you know, a third of what it used to be, and. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:10.520 That's turning around. 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.080 So we're now, for obvious reason, is going to have 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.799 to spend more on defense. There's really no way out 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.960 of that in this geopolitical environment. And at the same 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:24.000 time we also need to spend more and more on welfare, 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.680 on social care, on the NHS because of our aging 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.000 population and by the way, our population that is not 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.000 growing as fast as anyone expected it to even a 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.919 couple of years ago. So it's very hard to see 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.440 a way out, particularly with our low growth levels. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.560 And we didn't look particularly. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.960 At the speed of UK's growth during that podcast, but 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.480 if you look at between late nineties nineteen ninety eight 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.400 two thousand and seven, that period, the UK economy grew 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:51.960 at two and a half percent a year the whole 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.600 way through, and since then we've dipped and you know, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:57.960 one and a half percent is kind of our dream 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.720 these days, and that's the problem, and it's all about productivity. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.560 Yeah, and that's I mean, that's a really interesting point 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:11.000 they make there about the peace dividend, because there's arguably 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.200 there's an element there that this is all part of 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.160 the same kind of turning point now where we're now 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.920 going into a higher interest rate kind of era as well, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.760 because the Peace dividend also enabled you know, a massive 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.600 flow of extra labor into the world market, and that 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.880 helped keep wages down, et cetera, et cetera, helps keep 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.079 inflation down. And now that that's all kind of going 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.200 into reverse, you've you've got you've get this happening as well. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.320 So yes, so to an ext tent, we kind of 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:44.120 squandered the Peace dividend arguably, which is the other reason 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.960 that's kind of probably left as way lower productivity as well, 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.120 because we haven't had our you know, our kind of 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.560 noses to the grindstone, as it were, because we've been 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:59.240 able to ease off from that point of view and 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:03.240 kind of just enjoy law entry historys and and law 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.960 hot doal rates for people to get the stupid ideas 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:08.160 are proved and things like that. 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.440 Stupid ideas, John, Honestly, you mean there, yeah, well let's 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:12.800 not go there. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:13.360 That's not good. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.040 But you know, the key, the key takeaway from when 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.719 we talked in the second half of the show, we 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.160 talked we tried to move away from the miseries of 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.480 taxed and the full on socialization of all risk and 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.400 everyone's slightly over enhanced. 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:29.360 Expectations of the state. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:31.080 We tried to move away from that a little bit 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.279 and start talking about how the UK can grow, what 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.040 we can do to improve our productivity rates, and that 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.760 came straight down to what we we often say this 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.279 in finance, don't we simple but not easy? 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.160 I mean, we really really, really really do know how 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.160 to do it, but we decide not to. I mean 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.320 it's uh, you know, so sorting out the planning system, 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.080 sorting out the tax system, if we've just described would 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.240 be good for growth. We know that investment in sensible 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.239 investment in infrastructure is clearly important, and not cutting spending 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.440 on further education and vocational education as has happened over 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:12.320 the last fifteen years, also building the roads and airports 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.240 and so on. That we need, having a consistent strategy 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.760 towards competition and R and D and all those sorts 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.760 of things, and free at trade with the European Union. 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.919 I mean, all of those things we know would be 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:27.880 good for growth. 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.120 And you know, Paul says, we know exactly what we 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.000 need to do if we want to improve productivity and 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.960 we need to grow. We need political stability, We need 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.360 to sort out our tax system, which is just absurd. 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.160 We need to have a good look at the cost 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.640 of welfare. We need to do something about infrastructure, you know, 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.800 build stuff, don't cancel stuff. We need to pull back 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.200 on regulation. We need to do something about our education system. 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.760 We need to do something in our planning, and of 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.679 course we need to return to positive real race of interest. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.440 All these things need to happen if we want to 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.480 be the kind of economy that is productive and growing again. 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.160 And we had some hints from the Labor Party conference 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:06.919 about some of those things, and we had some hints 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.640 in the Conservative Party conference about some of those things. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.919 You know, both sides know that something needs to be 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.320 done about the education system to broaden it out, etc. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.480 Both sides know something needs to be done about planning, 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.640 although of course only one is planning on building new 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.919 cities and ignoring what everyone says about it. So, you know, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.760 we know all those things, but we kind of can't 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:32.600 do them. There's so much leftogy, appathy, obstruction built into 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.599 our system that while we know what to do, we 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.400 don't want to do it. And that was sort of 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.600 slightly the most depressing thing that comes out of talking 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.960 to Paul PAULI you're not depressing in person. By the way, Paul, 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.960 it's not a depressing person. He just delivers depressing information. 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:50.279 Different we shouldn't shoot the messenger, No, I mean, I 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.520 think that is interesting. Nor the fact that there's a 0:06:54.600 --> 0:07:01.000 Lackey political cottage or whatever it is or or will. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.120 And I know the people you know, you quite often 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.800 get told that well, you get the politicians and the 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.919 political parties that you deserve as voters. But I'm not 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.400 sure that's entirely fair. I have to say. 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:13.280 I think that. 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.800 I mean, one thing I would say that was interesting 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.160 about the reaction of the Labor Party conference and the 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.280 tone that Labor Party took in making the house building announcement. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.840 They're kind of big front page grabber. Is I think 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:34.920 that shows that the at least the national conversation on 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.600 infrastructure and specifically in house building is shifting in the 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:44.520 direction of moving away from you know, theoretically everyone being 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.160 an INMBI a kind of not in my back garden 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.680 kind of person. And I think that's kind of positive 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.280 because it shows that there is that kind of mood 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.960 swing towards look, we're kind of fed up, let's get 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.040 stuff done. I mean, obviously The issue is then when 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.480 you get into the weeds of it, you end up 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.520 waiting because it's one thing, so okay, since labor are 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.800 saying this, but I was recently talking to somebody about 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:16.560 that whole nutrient neutrality thing which labor blocked, and that's 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.040 literally kind of preventing the kind of instant kind of 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.520 you know, shovels in the groundwork on something like one 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.120 hundred thousand odd houses and a one hundred thousand odd 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.560 houses in the grand scheme of how many we we 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.960 say we need or want to build is a small amount, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.360 but on an annual basis, it's an awful lot. And 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.200 the point is you could start all of them now 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.440 if you kind of got rid of this somewhat minor 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.199 environmental kind of rule. And that's the problem. You sort 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.480 of you get into that and immediately you know, like 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.800 most of these regulations were put in place for a 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.280 reason and because some pressure group was annoyed about them 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.080 in the first place. There's a lot of very small 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.000 special interests, and I don't I don't know what it 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.760 will take for our politicians to start running raiding rough 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.920 short over those special interests. I feel that there's a 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.439 real ridiculous level of sensitivity in the part of leaders. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.280 That is incredibly overblown. And I don't I really don't 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:14.480 know where it comes from. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.280 Well, everybody, everybody wants to look like the best person, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.760 and it's easier to do it by you know, approving Well, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:24.920 you know, some of these pressure groups are very strong, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:27.680 and the things that they say are very valid. You know, 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.120 we must protect this type of animal, that type of animal, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.520 this type environment, or that type of environment. And the 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.120 bigger picture is much harder to sell, you know, And 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.640 the housing is very hard to sell to communities when 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.560 it's when it's about putting up larger states on the 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.960 edge of towns without increasing and improving the infrastructure around 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.640 those towns. While the idea of having new towns is 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.800 a lot better than the idea of having new housing 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.640 estates tacked onto existing towns that don't have the infrastructure 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.320 capacity to deal with them. So, you know, I quite 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.120 rather like that that idea of Kastarmers, let's just build 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.720 nice new towns. He's in cahoots with the king, really, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.880 isn't He does that a pounded bree everywhere. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.120 I'm all over that all over. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.040 That king tells is the true, Poppet myself being to 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:14.640 live a party as that will be interesting. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.800 The King has been absolutely right when it has come 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.600 to building whole new towns. Everybody loves a boundary, everybody 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:22.640 loves living in it. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.120 It looks nice. No one protests about a poundbury. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:30.920 So this idea of building attractive, not hideous, attractive new towns, 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.839 whether they offend architects or not, because everything attractive does 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.240 seem to offend the modern architect If you put those 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.960 up in new spaces with the infrastructure they required, that 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.679 the shops, the GP surgeries, the opticians, etc. Rather than 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.400 tacking them onto the edge of existing towns and expecting 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.719 those towns just to you know, take it. I think 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:51.920 you won't have the same problem that we've had for 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.120 the last couple of decades. So I was very very 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.760 pro that idea from Kiostarmer, and pro a couple of 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.920 other ideas as well, very very not pro some others. 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:02.840 But we won't go into that now. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:05.720 Yes, probably it's not. 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:06.920 Probably does not. 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:09.800 I mean, the one last thing I would say is that, 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.760 and we did discuss this with Paul, that there are 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.880 a lot of things in the taccess them which are I'll. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.840 Just dafted new taxes that should come in. 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:23.400 I mean, I mean so many ways that you could 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.679 make it better than it than it is. I mean, 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.080 we have this absurd situation where we've got National Insurance 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.760 contributions which are just attaxed. There's no relation to anything 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.439 that people are entitled to, which you pay on earned income. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.720 So if you're a wage sleeve like me, you pay 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.400 lots of that. If you're a partner at a professional 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.160 services company, you don't. If you're self employed you pay 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.280 a lot less. And if your income is coming from 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.599 rents on a property happened to earn or shares what 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.320 you don't pay anything. You don't pay any National insurance 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.280 on pension payment in payment that actually don't pay it 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.640 on pension contributions either. So number one, just admit that 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.480 this is just a tax on income and get a lot. 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.000 I mean, they add the result obviously of layer upon 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:13.920 layer of basically stealth taxes, and you know corn merchant 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.920 moves by successive chancellors. But again it feels like one 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.000 of those things if somebody just kind of spoke to 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.520 the public in a slightly rational way, particularly if it's 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.679 a new government and they're a bit more popular, and 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:31.920 they've got a wee bit more leeway and an honeymoon 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.480 period and said, they see how these stupid marginal tax rates, 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.240 we're gonna get rid of them and we're going to 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.640 replace them. Me is something that's perfectly fair and it's 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.199 still progressive, but one that doesn't stop people from deciding 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.560 to earn more money because they're going to get punched 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.440 in the face as soon as they got over, you know, 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.400 one hundred thousand pounds, fifty thousand pounds, et cetera, et cetera. 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.360 So I'd like to see someone talking about that. And 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.800 again it's one of these weird things where what you 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:03.920 probably need is a leftish identified party getting any power. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.040 It do always something, because then it doesn't look as 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.679 if they're going behind to the wretch, whoever their wretch 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.880 you can consider it to be. So, you know, I 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:19.000 Fraechel re uses less than then that strikes me as 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:20.360 making a lot of sense. 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.559 You know, this is really important, John, because what when 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.440 you listen to both parties at the moment actually talking 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.920 about growth. They talk about growth as though growth is 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.600 something you can force, something you can make. They talk 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.000 about creating jobs and all this kind of things so 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.760 they can somehow make it happen. And that's not how 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:43.200 it works. And what you've just described is the opposite thing. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.880 It's let growth happen, you know, let an economy grow. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.439 The moment we're always talking about forcing it. Now, you 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.839 can't force economic growth. What you can do is create 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.600 the correct infrastructure. Step back and let it happen. You 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.480 need to create an environment that allows growth. And that's 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:00.080 something you. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:01.640 Don't hear talked about, Everet. 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.040 It's always about the big government, big state, pushing it, 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.360 making it, creating it things that you and I, because 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.400 we're getting old, simply are not possible. 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.719 And no, unfortunately, Bill, I see how long it's these 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.960 at a fashion. The only thing that will stop. That's 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:21.280 the point vigilities. Weirdly enough, and yeah, at least they 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.400 seem to be shown some things that can help. Even 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.720 the law, I'm still not convinced that they actually properly exist. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.760 Well, we'll come back to this. We'll come back to 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.040 this another day. But I would like to finish our 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.680 conversation John with an Adam Smith quote. I believe all 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.960 conversations should end with an Adam Smith quote, and this 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.800 one is particularly relevant to everything that we've just been 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:42.360 talking about. 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:43.640 You ready, yelp. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.000 The uniform, constant, and uninterrupted effort of every man to 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.080 better his condition is frequently powerful enough to maintain the 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.480 natural progress of things towards improvement, in spite both of 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.280 the extravagance of government and of the greatest errors of 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:05.560 its administration. Thanks for listening to this week's Marin Talks 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.440 Money the after Show. This episode was hosted by me 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.600 Meren Somerset Web alongside John Steppek. It was produced by 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.520 Someersidi additional editing by Blake Naples.